Home made energy scams

[Olowkow]

Well, this may not belong in the General Skepticism forum, so please feel free to move it. I found a link on the Huffington Post that was very disturbing, so I did a little research:

http://wiki17.com/
This link will direct you to:
http://www.homemadeenergy.org/?hop=followto

I am very disappointed in Huff Post for running these ads, as I generally have looked favorably on the blog, but I really don't want to email them, because the last time I did, it took me months to get "unsubscribed" from their junk mail.

Now, I am sure that most people on the JREF forum understand that this is a scam, but what I found interesting was that when I did a Google search for "homemadeenergy.org + scam", there was a real surprising lack of hits with any relevance. Most results were actually not so clever "endorsements" of the site and its nonsensical book of "secrets" for $47.00. It is all quite transparent, since the styles of the "endorsement and review sites" are very similar to the main site. There are even "competing" businesses telling us they are real, and homemadeenergy.org is a scam! It sure looks to me like they are all just parts of one elaborate fraud.

I did finally find a few real debunkers, of which this one is pretty good:

http://www.nlcpr.com/Deceptions6.php

This guy explains how scam artists can use Google to promote themselves. I found it informative, and hope you do too.

[IMST]

Huff Post is dismally bad on science in general. This is not a suprise coming from them. If you look at any of their medical articles, be prepared to throw things.

[Amapola]

Hey, thanks for the link Olowkow. I've got friends who would fall for that... now I have a way to warn them!

[Olowkow]

Hey, thanks for the link Olowkow. I've got friends who would fall for that... now I have a way to warn them!

You're very welcome. So do I. I loved the little video with the guy obviously in his garage sounding so sincere. Eccch!

What I found most interesting though was the link at the bottom, where it is explained how the methods used by Google are subverted to work for the scammer's interests (towards the end of the article). Bidding on key words, etc.

[ElectricVoodoo]

Well, this may not belong in the General Skepticism forum, so please feel free to move it. I found a link on the Huffington Post that was very disturbing, so I did a little research:

http://wiki17.com/
This link will direct you to:
http://www.homemadeenergy.org/?hop=followto

I am very disappointed in Huff Post for running these ads, as I generally have looked favorably on the blog, but I really don't want to email them, because the last time I did, it took me months to get "unsubscribed" from their junk mail.

Now, I am sure that most people on the JREF forum understand that this is a scam, but what I found interesting was that when I did a Google search for "homemadeenergy.org + scam", there was a real surprising lack of hits with any relevance. Most results were actually not so clever "endorsements" of the site and its nonsensical book of "secrets" for $47.00. It is all quite transparent, since the styles of the "endorsement and review sites" are very similar to the main site. There are even "competing" businesses telling us they are real, and homemadeenergy.org is a scam! It sure looks to me like they are all just parts of one elaborate fraud.

I did finally find a few real debunkers, of which this one is pretty good:

http://www.nlcpr.com/Deceptions6.php

This guy explains how scam artists can use Google to promote themselves. I found it informative, and hope you do too.

The logical approach would be to seek out a physicist and a mechanical and/or chemical engineer to discuss the prospects of home made energy. If their residence(s) are running off of the grid you may be onto something. If they pay their electricity bill, you haven't lost anything. All of my physicist and engineering friends and acquaintances use the popular, simple method of converting currency on a monthly basis to energy. Conservation is another story.

[Olowkow]

Oh energy independence is definitely possible! Just not for under $200, using $47 plans from a web scam.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/jay_leno_garage/4216780.html

[CynicalSkeptic]

but what I found interesting was that when I did a Google search for "homemadeenergy.org + scam", there was a real surprising lack of hits with any relevance. Most results were actually not so clever "endorsements" of the site and its nonsensical book of "secrets" for $47.00. It is all quite transparent, since the styles of the "endorsement and review sites" are very similar to the main site.

I had similar results when I was recently looking into an MLM scam for a friend of a friend.

[jasonpatterson]

Unless you live in a place with good wind conditions, are fairly handy, are willing to scrounge for used parts like there's no tomorrow (treadmill motors ftw!), and have very low energy consumption rates, cheap home electricity production just isn't feasible.

You can build a very inexpensive windmill fairly easily, using the chispito generator (http://www.velacreations.com/makechispito.html) plans. The thing with these folks is that they aren't trying to make a buck from you (though you can buy a kit.) They tell you exactly what you need, how to cut and assemble parts from salvage, all sorts of good things. The downside is that you still need the ability to convert the power to a usable form and/or to store it for later use, which does cost money. This type of generator doesn't produce much power at all though, about 0.1 kw, or about a quarter's worth of power per day. If you had half a dozen, and you used very little power, and you lived in a place with good wind, you definitely could power your own house though.

[rjh01]

I saw the ad a few days ago and thought it was a scam. It was just too good to be true. Like 'how to get these batteries for nothing.' If they were useful they would have a value. Solar energy is expensive and they were saying use that.

[LONGTABBER PE]

The logical approach would be to seek out a physicist and a mechanical and/or chemical engineer to discuss the prospects of home made energy. If their residence(s) are running off of the grid you may be onto something. If they pay their electricity bill, you haven't lost anything. All of my physicist and engineering friends and acquaintances use the popular, simple method of converting currency on a monthly basis to energy. Conservation is another story.

I'm right here LOL ( ME & EE) and I'll give you the advice for free ( but you can still send the 27.00 if you want to)

Seriously, the "theory" is sound ( as far as using alternative energy to get "off the grid") but the cost/benefit ratio makes it unfeasable for an individual home.

However, it would work for say a development to buy ( assuming you were zoned for such) a windmill to power it.

Just remember ( did a wind project a few years ago) a "true" windmill generator with storage batteries, distribution system et al will run about 5 mil.

You will get a better bang for your buck by insulating your house and practicing good energy conservation.


DO NOT ATTEMPT TO BUILD A GENERATOR FOR HOME USE USING THESE HOMEMADE KITS other than for a light bulb and maybe a true induction device.

a "motor" ( DC) is NOT a generator. ( they are wound differently, dont have the right wire sizes or magnets)

It will generate power but doesnt have the electromotive force to do much with.

Not to mention that they are going to put out DC current and a commercial inverter puts out RIPPLED DC Current ( which does NOT have a true AC sine wave) ( a real inverter that puts out true AC costs thousands of dollars)

If you plug in electronic devices to rippled DC, you will destroy them in a short time plus possible overheat wiring and start a fire.

A true AC sine looks like ~

rippled DC looks like ^^^^^^^^^

[ElectricVoodoo]

I'm right here LOL ( ME & EE) and I'll give you the advice for free ( but you can still send the 27.00 if you want to)

Seriously, the "theory" is sound ( as far as using alternative energy to get "off the grid") but the cost/benefit ratio makes it unfeasable for an individual home.

However, it would work for say a development to buy ( assuming you were zoned for such) a windmill to power it.

Just remember ( did a wind project a few years ago) a "true" windmill generator with storage batteries, distribution system et al will run about 5 mil.

You will get a better bang for your buck by insulating your house and practicing good energy conservation.


DO NOT ATTEMPT TO BUILD A GENERATOR FOR HOME USE USING THESE HOMEMADE KITS other than for a light bulb and maybe a true induction device.

a "motor" ( DC) is NOT a generator. ( they are wound differently, dont have the right wire sizes or magnets)

It will generate power but doesnt have the electromotive force to do much with.

Not to mention that they are going to put out DC current and a commercial inverter puts out RIPPLED DC Current ( which does NOT have a true AC sine wave) ( a real inverter that puts out true AC costs thousands of dollars)

If you plug in electronic devices to rippled DC, you will destroy them in a short time plus possible overheat wiring and start a fire.

A true AC sine looks like ~

rippled DC looks like ^^^^^^^^^

I'm right here LOL ( ME & EE) and I'll give you the advice for free ( but you can still send the 27.00 if you want to)

See everyone? Right under my nose, lol. Suffice to say you crossed my mind, but I gather you charge more than the $27.00 (a few more 0's, perhapds?) for house calls? I left out EE's by mistake, what is your area of expertise?

DO NOT ATTEMPT TO BUILD A GENERATOR FOR HOME USE USING THESE HOMEMADE KITS other than for a light bulb and maybe a true induction device.

Heed these words.

Save your money (and your CNS/cardiovascular system should you take direct amperes). Ironically, if they (paramedics/fire) get to you in time they will use the paddles should you go into cardiac arrest.

If you plug in electronic devices to rippled DC, you will destroy them in a short time plus possible overheat wiring and start a fire.
What amazes me is how often this still happens.

A true AC sine looks like ~

rippled DC looks like ^^^^^^^^^
And, if one is unlucky enough to stop their heart, it looks like

|_________________|HR BPM 000

|_________________|BP

|...........................|
|. . . . . . . . . . . . . .|SP02
|...........................|

*audible alarm*
(depending upon monitor and screen)

So listen to Longtabber, the resident engineer, and myself, the resident physician...you'll save money AND live!

(BTW LT, I charge $27.01 just to say I'm better paid, LOL)

[Apology]

I saw one of these home energy ads on the Museum of Hoaxes website :(

Unfortunately, it was not a feature story, but an actual ad.

[Toke]

One of the chief engineers on my ship have a solar collector for hot water and heating.
He is planning on a small windmill on the roof hooket up to a heating element in the hotwater tank. I assume it comes with controlbox to prevent overheating.

That solves the problem of DC-AC converter* and energi storage.
*Usually 1000Kr pr KW

The efford and parts to connect to house grid or return power to grid is not for the home improvement crowd.

[Beerina]

Huff Post is dismally bad on science in general. This is not a suprise coming from them. If you look at any of their medical articles, be prepared to throw things.

Their politics, however, are immaculate. :teacher:

[IMST]

Their politics, however, are immaculate. :teacher:

That depends on one's individual politics. I find the site to be too far to the right for my tastes (most things are). ;)

[godless dave]

I met a family in Iowa who run their whole house on wind power, with just one windmill. They did it without breaking the bank, but only because they did all the work themselves, scrounged for cheap or free parts, and at least one of them had the electrical knowledge to know how to build what he wanted.

The windmill charges 12V batteries (surplus from the railroad industry) and the whole house runs on 12V DC (light fixtures came from trains and the merchant marine). They don't have a washing machine, a drier, or a dishwasher, and I'm not sure about a microwave.

So it's doable with some sacrifices, but only if you have land in the right place and the know-how to build it yourself.

[LONGTABBER PE]

See everyone? Right under my nose, lol. Suffice to say you crossed my mind, but I gather you charge more than the $27.00 (a few more 0's, perhapds?) for house calls? I left out EE's by mistake, what is your area of expertise?
[B]


Motor controls, PLC's, DCS, Power Gen and power quality ( harmonics )

I started out doing housecalls ( residential) but it didnt take me long to see that just didnt work LOL

From gd

>>>I met a family in Iowa who run their whole house on wind power, with just one windmill. They did it without breaking the bank, but only because they did all the work themselves, scrounged for cheap or free parts, and at least one of them had the electrical knowledge to know how to build what he wanted.

The windmill charges 12V batteries (surplus from the railroad industry) and the whole house runs on 12V DC (light fixtures came from trains and the merchant marine). They don't have a washing machine, a drier, or a dishwasher, and I'm not sure about a microwave.

So it's doable with some sacrifices, but only if you have land in the right place and the know-how to build it yourself.

Yep it is. Remember, before Tesla really sold AC, power in the US was DC.

You could do the above ( I'm pulling this from memory but I believe household voltage back then was between 40-90 VDC) and most devices except complex digital or processor controlled machinery can operate on DC or rippled DC. ( basically any light, heating element) you would have to retrofit other appliances with DC motors and timers and such but it can be done.

[Toke]

Lightswiches for AC will not last long with DC.
When the contact open there are no zero-cycle to break the spark.

Do NOT just change the house supply from 110V AC to some 108-120V DC.

[Toke]

Lightbulbs and the carbon motors in vacumcleaners will accept DC, not much else will.

[godless dave]

Computers and most home electronics run on DC. You have to replaced the AC-DC transformer with something that will step down the voltage. And naturally you would use wiring, switches, and fixtures designed for DC power.

[Olowkow]

Wow! where do I begin? What is a carbon motor? AC-DC transformer? Step down DC? not a simple feat.
Where are all the engineers? Too much woo!

You can generate AC or DC with a windmill. If you had an AC generator and a governor that kept it at 60 Hz, you could not store the power easily, and would be limited to having to use it only while the wind is blowing.

You could rectify the AC to make it DC, and store it in batteries.

Generating DC permits you to store "power" in batteries directly for use when the wind is not blowing. Now, you have to convert the DC in the batteries to AC at 60 Hz using an inverter.

Solar gives you only DC. Converting a house to DC is absurd. Making your own efficient solar cells is not an option.

I recommend reading the link I provided. This guy knows what he is talking about.

http://www.nlcpr.com/Deceptions6.php

[Toke]

What is a carbon motor?
Universal motors (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_motor#Universal_motors)

Litterate translation of common calling name does not always work.:o

[Klimax]

Wow! where do I begin? What is a carbon motor? AC-DC transformer? Step down DC? not a simple feat.
Where are all the engineers? Too much woo!


Ok.If I understood your post:
AC-DC transformer: Device used to scale down voltage and then rectify to form DC. (usualy transformator and then diodes or similar)
Step down DC:Decreasing voltageof DC. (No transformator)

(Any correcitons welcome ;) )

[CynicalSkeptic]

I've got a friend running on Solar and batteries. He has a generator for backup, but claims he only uses it when he pumps water to fill his holding tank. He's in the AZ high desert so gets good sunlight like 347 days a year.

But his land is off the grid, and his (small) house was built intended for DC from the beginning. And it wasn't cheap; IIRC, it was like $20K for the panels and batteries about 10 years ago.

[Olowkow]

Ok.If I understood your post:
AC-DC transformer: Device used to scale down voltage and then rectify to form DC. (usualy transformator and then diodes or similar)
Step down DC:Decreasing voltageof DC. (No transformator)

(Any correcitons welcome ;) )
Ok. I am an electronics engineer.
A "transformer" is a device that converts AC of one voltage to AC of a higher or lower voltage. It consists of a pair of isolated windings on a core of iron plates, or a toroid made of powdered iron.
There is no such thing as a AC to DC transformer. That would be called a "rectifier".
To "step down" DC you would either use a voltage divider (wastes power as heat) or you would have to convert DC to AC then back to DC again at a lower voltage. These devices are quite common these days. Called DC to DC converter. "Transformator" is not a word that I understand. I am still wondering what a "carbon motor" is.:)

[Olowkow]

I've got a friend running on Solar and batteries. He has a generator for backup, but claims he only uses it when he pumps water to fill his holding tank. He's in the AZ high desert so gets good sunlight like 347 days a year.

But his land is off the grid, and his (small) house was built intended for DC from the beginning. And it wasn't cheap; IIRC, it was like $20K for the panels and batteries about 10 years ago.

Good for him. There would be something so satisfying about being that self sufficient.

[Toke]

Terminology may vary a bit, particulary across languages.
There is no such thing as a AC to DC transformer. That would be called a "rectifier".
To me it would be a transformer with a brigde diode and capacitator.
It would e.g. turn 230VAC into 24VDC.

To "step down" DC you would either use a voltage divider (wastes power as heat) or you would have to convert DC to AC then back to DC again at a lower voltage. These devices are quite common these days. Called DC to DC converter.
Or one of those swichtmode converters you have in computers and lightweight stereos.
They take your input voltage and swicht it on and of really quickly to maintain the desired output voltage acros a capacitator.

"Transformator" is not a word that I understand. I am still wondering what a "carbon motor" is.

Transformer and universal motor, the later having carbon brusches.

[Olowkow]

To me it would be a transformer with a brigde diode and capacitator.
It would e.g. turn 230VAC into 24VDC.

Or one of those swichtmode converters you have in computers and lightweight stereos.
They take your input voltage and swicht it on and of really quickly to maintain the desired output voltage acros a capacitator.

Transformer and universal motor, the later having carbon brusches.

1. analog power supply using a transformer, bridge, and filter cap
2. switching power supply, using a transformer, bridge, and filter cap, opertating at a higher frequency than 60 hz to save weight on the transformer
3. oh! carbon brushes, now I get it.

[LONGTABBER PE]

I get a lot of questions on how one could go about reducing/eliminating energy cost/dependance and since I'm doing generators 24/7 right now- its at the forefront of my mind. ( there aint no power grid in the mountains of Afghanistan to tap into- everything is run by generators)

First, unless one wants to live like a pioneer- there is no way to get away from electric power. Its 'doable" ( obviously) but probably not "desirable" but thats an individual choice.

Forget this "cheap" crap- no such thing exists. Its really a case of "cost to benefit" over time.

You have to consider the initial investment/maintenance/replacement of components at the end of their service life/ risk over cost of not doing it over a period of time ( say about 20 years)

So, if you want the "full Monty"- heres an outline of the proper way to do it.

IMPORTANT SAFETY NOTICE- this is simply an informational guide, if anyone wants to do this, FIRST go to a local EE and LICENSED electrician and have your individual situation evaluated for load factors, code compliance etc. Electricity WILL kill you and or damage/burn everything to the ground. Dont be a fool- this type of project is NOT for an untrained person.

I personally dont recommend DC because its too equipment/labor intensive for the average person as well as it has too many limitations but for those who want to try it- it works


Start at the beginning

1) what is the anticipated need?

In the US ( other countries will vary so this doesnt apply to them)- the average house is wired for a 200 amp service @ 220 VAC on the line side.

Thats 44,000 watts available ( W= V*A). Thats considering peak loads and estimated on the high side[ and what they want to set your bill rate at] The power companies do that so they can know how much power they have to generate.

In reality, the average house uses less than 50% of that on average

( I have an industrial 30kw generator for my farm as a back up and during hurricanes and ice storms I have never overloaded mine but I took a junker and rebuilt it)

The average home can live with a 15kw generator. ( you may have to do some load planning but thats OK)

You will need a load survey to see what your requirements are and size the power plant accordingly.

2) The alternative power plant

First, lets define a few terms. The word "generator" has a different meaning in different circumstances.

Even tho the terms are used interchangeable- they are not

A GENERATOR generates DC current

An ALTERNATOR generates AC

The PRIME MOVER is the device that TURNS the alternator. ( be it an engine, water wheel, fan blades etc)

I say that because I get calls a lot from people who damaged stuff because they have a portable welder or other device with a GENERATOR on it and they plugged it into their house and almost blew up everything.

( important safety note- READ the specs and dataplate- if it doesnt specifically state AC current- dont use it)

If you purchase one- make sure your generator has an ALTERNATOR on it. Ask and make sure it is TRUE AC current. ( read the fine print) ( some people, ignorantly or on purpose try to pass off rippled DC as AC current)

Outlets like Home Depot/Lowes etc sell home generators but like everything else- theres a catch ( read that fine print)

Those are BACK UP power. They are NOT designed for continuous duty ( as in replacement power running 24/7/365 with constant peaks and surges)

The difference is in the engine ( prime mover), winding size and insulation, bearings and service factor. Those home units have a service life ( before you just throw them away- they are not worth overhauling) of about 2000 hours. ( a 30 day month is 720 hrs so do the math)

I say that because I know some farmers who tried to alter the laws of physics and run their houses off of them because they could get fuel cheaper and it didnt work.

So, make sure your ALTERNATOR has a service factor of 1.5 or greater and is rated for continuous duty. ( plan on spending about 20k US to get an alternator, transfer switch and all the controls)

Sounds like a lot but over 20 yrs and factoring other risks as well as possibly multiple houses- its not.

The Prime Mover.

Something has to turn that alternator at a constant speed and torque. ( the critical factor is the torque because as demand increases, the magnetic field increases and makes the alternator harder to turn)

Forget an engine- for the long haul- it just doesnt work.

The prime mover is the big problem because of the RPM/torque requirements, the "homeowner" is basically limited to either air or water.

If you dont a river with running water close by ( thats assuming local codes/laws would allow it) thats not an option.

We are now back to air ( windmill)

Sounds good but there are considerations and complications.

The "windmill" as seen on TV is a combination of the generator/alternator- the prime mover ( blades) and a transmission. ( just like your car, you have to have torque, constant speed and braking/freewheeling capability)

To properly size the windmill ( no such thing as 1 size fits all) you need a survey of what height you have non turbulent wind as well as the average speed. ( that tells you the size blades, their pitch and how tall the tower)

Heres the downside- there will be times of not much wind ( unless you have a 300' tower- the funny thing is that if you had a few mil to build that monster- your power bill wouldnt be a big concern in the first place so you would just buy a yacht and go sailing and reduce your power bill by not being home)

So, you are back to a storage bank with regulator and inverter. ( more cost)

In short- for the average homeowner- the investment/benefit ratio isnt worth it.

However, depending on remoteness of location or business considerations ( like my case on a farm where a few days without power can cost money in lost product)- it may be worth it due to the risk alone.

Dont fall for the scams- it aint free, you cant change the laws of physics and it requires planning and discipline

[LTC8K6]

$20K to get off the grid? Sounds like you'd break even at your funeral...

[Ginarley]

[pedant mode]

Windmills are devices that use the wind for mechanical purposes.
Wind turbines are devices that use the wind to generate electricity.

[/pedant mode]

[ktesibios]

Before the New Deal and the Rural Electrification Administration, wind power systems were popular for rural dwellers who were out of reach of utility power lines. These systems typically used a DC generator and lead-acid batteries for storage. The de facto standard was 32VDC nominal.

This created a market, which electric-appliance manufacturers did serve, for devices rated to operate from 32VDC power. You could get 32V light bulbs, small kitchen appliances, e.g., mixers, and other useful things that you could plug into your 32V system.

Gadgets requiring higher DC voltages at low power, e.g., a vacuum tube radio receiver, could operate from 32VDC using a vibrator power supply to provide a few hundred volts for the plate supply while the tube heaters ran (usually in series) directly off the raw 32V. (A vibrator supply is a kind of electromechanical DC-DC converter in which an electromechanical buzzer chops your DC supply into an AC square wave which can then be stepped up by a transformer and then rectified and filtered into HVDC. Vibrator supplies were very common in tube car radios, which had to work from a 6VDC or 12VDC source.)

Nowadays virtually every farm in the country is within reach of commercial electric power service, so the low voltage DC appliance market has gone the way of the rubber buggy bumper market and anyone who wants "off-the-grid" electricity is pretty well stuck with having to produce 120VAC 60 Hz sine wave power.

If you want to do such an installation in your home, hiring a licensed EE to draw up the plans and a licensed contractor to do the installation isn't just a very sensible idea, it may well be required by your local building code authorities before a permit can be issued.

[Olowkow]

Gadgets requiring higher DC voltages at low power, e.g., a vacuum tube radio receiver, could operate from 32VDC using a vibrator power supply to provide a few hundred volts for the plate supply while the tube heaters ran (usually in series) directly off the raw 32V.

Let's not forget the "dynamotor". Motor-generator set.
Anyone know what happened to the proposed "56 volt standard" for car electrical systems...to save copper on wiring?

[TjW]

I believe it's a 36V standard, and there's the usual chicken-or-egg problems.

[Klimax]

Ok. I am an electronics engineer.
A "transformer" is a device that converts AC of one voltage to AC of a higher or lower voltage. It consists of a pair of isolated windings on a core of iron plates, or a toroid made of powdered iron.
There is no such thing as a AC to DC transformer. That would be called a "rectifier".
To "step down" DC you would either use a voltage divider (wastes power as heat) or you would have to convert DC to AC then back to DC again at a lower voltage. These devices are quite common these days. Called DC to DC converter. "Transformator" is not a word that I understand. I am still wondering what a "carbon motor" is.:)

Sigh.Cought on terminology again...
And sorry for "Transformator",I have accidently used czech word...
Transformator = transformer.
As for 'AC-DC Transformer' I'd say it is imprecise term used by folks to describe both stages. (AC transform then rectify it)

(And fortunately I know usually what those things are... ;) )

[scottksmith]

There is a great deal of misinformation in the above posts.

In evaluating the veracity of claims made by the people that want to either sell you information as to how you can get "free energy" or sell you machinery to do it, the operative word is POWER. While you certainly CAN get free power from solar, wind, hydro (if you've got a river next to you), the MAIN problem is that you can't get much POWER from any device that you might be able to afford to buy or build. Trust me on this. I am a college graduate electrical engineer with over 50 years hands on experience with this subject. I am also very aware of what can be bought "on the cheap".

The discussions in this thread about "pulsed DC" versus AC sine wave are absurd in many respects. For MANY years, people on boats have had need for 120 v power.

Consider a boat (say about 65 feet ion length) to be analagous to a small house. It obviously needs considerable POWER. I recently outfitted such a boat with an electrical system that gives the owners a very practical, working system. While the 15kw generator (NOBODY calls a 15 kw genset an "alternator" even though it might be more accurate.) which is driven by a small deisel motor can run EVERYTHING on the yacht, the only time the genset runs is if the batteries are low due to a lack of wind or sunlight or if the owner wants to run the clothes dryer or air conditioner. As in most homes, the amount of POWER being consumed at any given time is quite well within the capabilities of an economical owner-installed renewable energy system that charges batteries.

The battery bank powers an inverter that can provide as much as 2500 watts of clean, pure, true AC sinewave power. The 120 volt AC is probably "cleaner" that what you have in your home right now. While a true sine wave inverter is more costly, there are also "modified sine wave" converters available. These are basically switching power supplys that change the 12 volt DC input to a 120 v RMS "square wave". This type of inverter works fine with many electronic devices, but does have some drawbacks. Do your homework and you can find out what they are.

The point is that in most homes, unless you regularly leave lights on in vacant rooms, TV's running with no one watching, etc. then you probably are not using a LOT of POWER at any given time. The BIG BIG BIG power consumers in any home are electric water heaters and clothes dryers. Even a modern, full size refrigerator uses VERY little POWER.

So, if you want to be pretty much "off the grid" it IS possible. You will probably have to have access to deisel fuel to OCCASSIONALLY run the generator for an hour or so, but solar and wind CAN keep a serious battery bank charged to the point that you will not need to draw from the power grid.

The cost of an installation that will do this is still around $ 20,000 - $ 30,000. Your deisel fuel costs will depend primarily on how many loads of laundry you must run through the clothes dryer every day (as opposed to a clothesline), and whether you heat your water with solar (EASILY DONE) or an electric water heater.

[CORed]

Before rural electrification, a lot of farms had windmills charging lead acid batteries. Of course, their use of electricity was much lower than most homes now, often just lights and a radio. They likely had a wood or coal stove for heating and cooking, an icebox (using actual ice) to keep the food cold, and maybe a gasoline powered ringer washing machine.

[Olowkow]

There is a great deal of misinformation in the above posts.

In evaluating the veracity of claims made by the people that want to either sell you information as to how you can get "free energy" or sell you machinery to do it, the operative word is POWER. ..........

Thanks. Hope I was not among the "misinformation" giver outers. Good stuff, and welcome to the forum.

[Olowkow]

I believe it's a 36V standard, and there's the usual chicken-or-egg problems.
Actually I guess we're both wrong..42 volt standard

http://lees-web.mit.edu/public/In_the_News/A%20New%2042-Volt%20Standard.htm
It's been a long time since I heard about it.

[biomorph]

universal motor, the later having carbon brusches.

Um, just to keep me up to speed, what sort of brushes are not carbon?

thse have been around forever havn't they? not sure there's any other kind...

[biomorph]

<snip>and maybe a gasoline powered ringer washing machine.
A what?

I'd like to see a pic of one o' them.........sounds like fun., i'd imagine it's hell on buttons.....lol

[Toke]

Um, just to keep me up to speed, what sort of brushes are not carbon?

thse have been around forever havn't they? not sure there's any other kind...

In danish they are just refered to as coals.

There are some for shaftgrounding that contain a lot of silver in the coal.
They are called coals too.

[Cuddles]

There is a great deal of misinformation in the above posts.

Which ones, exactly?

The point is that in most homes, unless you regularly leave lights on in vacant rooms, TV's running with no one watching, etc. then you probably are not using a LOT of POWER at any given time. The BIG BIG BIG power consumers in any home are electric water heaters and clothes dryers. Even a modern, full size refrigerator uses VERY little POWER.

Are you sure?
http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-files/Guardian/documents/2007/04/11/electronicsenergy.pdf
From this article (http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2007/apr/12/energy.environment). A modern, full size refrigerator appears to be one of the biggest users of power.

[rjh01]

They forgot to include electric irons used to get creases out of clothes. They would use heaps.

Dishwashers do not use that much electricity. If they stop you from washing up twice for every load you put on then you have actually saved energy and water.

Edit. I assume the only device for heating and cooking food is a microwave in the USA? He did not mention hot plates or ordinary ovens.

Edit2. I forgot to say I am looking at the pdf that Cuddles linked.

[Toke]

If you run your vacationhome with solarcells, lead batteries and an 230V inverter, you should worry about the frigde depleting the batteries with its accumolated consumption, and worry about your coffemachine, electric kettle or microwave oven popping the fuse with their peak load.

[Olowkow]

If you run your vacationhome with solarcells, lead batteries and an 230V inverter, you should worry about the frigde depleting the batteries with its accumolated consumption, and worry about your coffemachine, electric kettle or microwave oven popping the fuse with their peak load.

Running a vacation home on solar would be iffy at best. Maybe a few lights and a Peltier cell fridge. Battery weight should also be considered, since it will impinge on gas mileage.
Here is a good article that outlines the various parameters to consider.
http://zebu.uoregon.edu/disted/ph162/l4.html

Edit: by the way, not that it matters, but this thread was really intended to discuss the "scams" that are going on that are trying to sell folks false information. The claim is that running your house on solar is easy. Not so. Making your own solar cells is easy. Not so. In particular, I was interested in how they are able to subvert Google to their own purposes by putting out their own bogus debunking.
While not really a derail, much of what is being posted does not rely on fact, so it sort of shows that some people have already bought into the scam to some extent.

[Olowkow]

I realized today after re-reading the above post, that "vacation home" (the term used by Toke) was not "motorhome". I had "motorhome" stuck in my brain. So the post makes no sense! Sorry.

[Cuddles]

They forgot to include electric irons used to get creases out of clothes. They would use heaps.

The article was written by a man.:)

[Toke]

I realized today after re-reading the above post, that "vacation home" (the term used by Toke) was not "motorhome". I had "motorhome" stuck in my brain. So the post makes no sense! Sorry.

No problem, my translation skills sucks.
There are solar systems sold for "summer houses, cottages, vacation house, kolonihavehus". They rely in part on you only being there for the weekend.