Should the 9/11 CT subforum be closed?

[UNLoVedRebel]

Should the 9/11 Conspiracy Theory subforum be closed?

Pro: Yes, the 9/11 CT subforum is a troll buffet. The 9/11 truthers have not come up with anything new in years. Having a subforum solely for their crazy ideas only gives them the attention they crave and thus reinforces their behavior. Once we stop dignifying their crap, the 9/11 Truth movement will distance itself even further from reality.

Con: No, there are many people who are just now learning about 9/11 conspiracy theories, mostly young people. Since they could not fully understand the events of 9/11 when it happened, it's important to have a forum to counter the junk ideas on the Internet. Imagine doing a high school report on 9/11 and searching the Internet for information; you find yourself up to the teeth in websites telling you "what really happened". You know the websites claims are bizarre and mostly likely wrong, but, being young, you cannot explain why. A place to discuss their BS is worth the effort.

[firecoins]

keep it open. I don't want to be reduced to talking about Dallas again. Its like going back and to the left, back and to the left, back and to the left.

[Grizzly Bear]

I personally can care less... but as far as I'm aware the entire reason behind the subforum is because these topics continually flooded the main CT forum category. Getting rid of this one may well result in the same circumstances that led to this section being made in the first place. I didn't join until AFTER they made this subsection apparently, so... and if people don't want to retype the same crap that was made apparent years ago... the thread catalogue would most likely serve the best purpose as a substitute... the only issue is it hasn't been completed.

[DavidJames]

I voted to close it, but maybe it can be saved. How about each 9/11 CTists who creates a thread submits a PayPal donation to JREF. If the thread offers a unique and reasonably plausible alternative take on the events of 9/11, they get their money back. If not, thread gets closed and JREF keeps the money.

Based on the past year, I'd say JREF would have kept about 99% of the donations.

Note: Don't ask me to provide evidence for the 1%, I'm in a particularly good mood and decided to be kind.

[Bobert]

I voted to close it. Let them post in the CT section. I agree that it gives them extra attention by having their own subforum.

[Orphia Nay]

I voted not to close it. JREF is a discussion forum, and a popular topic should have a venue for people to discuss it, and anyone has a right to discuss a topic - newbies, debunkers and yes, even twoofers. ;)

I may change my mind on this in a short while, but right now I'm pretty certain, since I've just had a week's holiday away from the internet, and was happy to realise I merely thought about CTs once, even though I've been discussing them practically every day for about 4 years. :) (It's true - 9/11 twoof disappears if you switch off the interweb machine.)

[AJM8125]

I voted to close it. Let them post in the CT section. I agree that it gives them extra attention by having their own subforum.

But it isn't "their" subforum. This is where they come to die. :)

I say keep it open. Like it or not, there really isn't any place on the web quite like this, where highly knowledgeable people from diverse backgrounds simply destroy 9/11 truth with about as much effort as one butters their morning toast.

If that isn't of any benefit to those on the fence then I don't know what is and yes, this place very much puts the "E" in JREF. I can't begin to tell you all how much I've learned since I began lurking here about a year and a half ago.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Option #3: We keep the forum open until Al-Queada wakes up and realizes they don't need to come up with something spectacularly huge to force western civilization into having a massive $#!+, rents a truck, buys a ton of fertilizer and we start the whole bloody goat rodeo all over again.

[Blender Head]

Keep it open.


But then nuke from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.

[R.Mackey]

I'm voting 'closed,' but under normal circumstances a less dramatic solution should be possible.

Two key observations:

The rancor in the subforum can be traced to a very small number of individuals. You know who I'm talking about; the only variable is the name of the latest Balsamo sock. If these individuals should happen to get themselves banned, then it would calm down here very, very quickly. It also should be said that if the rest of you lot stopped rising to their bait, it would also calm down here overnight. The moderators could solve this, but cannot be blamed for not solving this.
There are no fence-sitters. Seriously, there are not. Two years ago there were, and I argued to keep it open, but no longer. As we approach eight years since the event in question, about which there are more publicly available reports and studies than any event since World War II, anyone claiming to be a fence-sitter fits into one of two categories -- either someone who doesn't understand and needs instruction, or someone who hasn't done his homework and is not ready for instruction. Anyone who can operate a search engine and knows how to read can find what she's looking for, if the search is conducted in good faith.

Nothing new is going to happen. In six months or so Dr. Jones will scrape up enough money to buy another nonsense Bentham article, and Mr. Gage will attend another AIA conference without submitting a paper. Who cares? Nothing new is going to happen. Bank on it.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

You're absolutely right about everything, Mackey.

But...

If you kill the 9/11 forum, the usual gang of idiots will bury the main CT forum. Think of it as a kind of quarantine. If keeping the junk from polluting the rest of forums.randi.org doesn't cost JREF anything more financially, then keep the 911CT forum going.

[Dave Rogers]

If you kill the 9/11 forum, the usual gang of idiots will bury the main CT forum. Think of it as a kind of quarantine. If keeping the junk from polluting the rest of forums.randi.org doesn't cost JREF anything more financially, then keep the 911CT forum going.

I think this is a very strong argument.

It seems to me that the question of closing this forum is typically approached from the wrong direction. The premise seems to be that, if the 9/11 CT forum is closed, then discussion of 9/11 on JREF will cease. I don't see any credible evidence being presented for this belief. The CT forum was originally created, as I understand it, to free up the General Skepticism and the Paranormal forum from the noise level created by 9/11 CT threads. This sub-forum was then created to free up the parent CT forum from the same noise level, so that other conspiracy theories with somewhat less atrocious levels of supporting evidence could be discussed there without frequent derails. Discussion of 9/11 is not, therefore, created, or even facilitated, by the existence of a forum specifically dedicated to it; rather, the forum exists as a place where that discussion can be contained. If it is closed, the discussion will move back to the general CT forum; if that is closed, where next? Politics? Science, Engineering, Medicine and Technology? It probably won't go away, so where other than here do we want it to go?

A more rational solution might be simply to move the sub-forum. Based on current content, it might be more appropriately positioned as a sub-forum of Abandon All Hope. It would certainly save the moderators a lot of time and effort.

Dave

[Tweeter]

I say let the forum open, but change the rules to anything goes.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Based on current content, it might be more appropriately positioned as a sub-forum of Abandon All Hope. It would certainly save the moderators a lot of time and effort.

I think this is a very strong argument. :D

[UNLoVedRebel]

I think this is a very strong argument.

It seems to me that the question of closing this forum is typically approached from the wrong direction. The premise seems to be that, if the 9/11 CT forum is closed, then discussion of 9/11 on JREF will cease. I don't see any credible evidence being presented for this belief. The CT forum was originally created, as I understand it, to free up the General Skepticism and the Paranormal forum from the noise level created by 9/11 CT threads. This sub-forum was then created to free up the parent CT forum from the same noise level, so that other conspiracy theories with somewhat less atrocious levels of supporting evidence could be discussed there without frequent derails. Discussion of 9/11 is not, therefore, created, or even facilitated, by the existence of a forum specifically dedicated to it; rather, the forum exists as a place where that discussion can be contained. If it is closed, the discussion will move back to the general CT forum; if that is closed, where next? Politics? Science, Engineering, Medicine and Technology? It probably won't go away, so where other than here do we want it to go?
A rebuttal to that would be that we're in the second half of 2009, not 2006. 9/11 CTs no longer get mentioned in any signifcant medium. All but the most dedicated trolls have moved on. Giving them their own playground brings the quality of the JREF forums down. Sure, if this subforum gets closed, 9/11 CTs will still be discussed in different sections, but the trolls would have to go looking for their food rather than having it fed to them on a silver plate. That would significantly reduce the trolls' influence in the JREF. It's in the trolls' nature to be lazy. Another question to ask is: are there enough quality threads on 9/11 to warrant its own subforum?

[Tweeter]

I`ve changed my mind, close it. We trolls will be fine and you guys can still occupy your time saving the world from magicians and bigfoot believers

[UNLoVedRebel]

I`ve changed my mind, close it. We trolls will be fine and you guys can still occupy your time saving the world from magicians and bigfoot believers

Case in point.

[T.A.M.]

I voted to keep it open. Even though I am the first to say the TM is essentially dead, and that we should ignore them (my ignore list is probably the largest), I have reasons for keeping it open...

1. though not common, there are new topics, such as the Jones paper, the Bentham debacle, etc... These are noteworthy and deserve a place for discussion.

2. These socks, as we can see not only with the PdoH variations, but now the CIT/Captain Bob ones, as well as Ultima's attempts, are going to keep coming. As long as the debunkers remain in the JREF forums at all...they will come. For that reason I think it is better to have a place for them to post, whether it be good or bad, so as to keep the rest of the forums relatively free of them. If we close this subforum, I GUARANTEE they will start to clog up the general CT forum, and if that is closed, they will go to other subforums and turn them into a mess.

3. The 9/11 CT area has become a community unto itself. Now I agree with others who have said we should all branch out into other areas of the forums...fair enough, but that may not be desired by some. To some, this is the place to come, where they can talk about the latest truther insanity. If that makes them feel better, well, then why not.

It is clear, that this subforum has deteriorated in terms of dialog quality and content quality. That mostly has to do with Debunker Fatigue Syndrome, which I now think can become a chronic disorder. I know I suffer from it. I just do not have the energy or the will, to present the arguments to debunk an myth brought here by the 18th reincarnation of P-diddy doh. However, I think the forum is worth keeping open, if for nothing more than having a place to confine the topics, confine the trolling, and perhaps, a place to allow a new generation of debunkers to present the arguments to the socks...lol

TAM:)

[Wolrab]

Close it. There is nothing new and they just rehash old crap. Like the Apollo hoax stuff, they just ignore anything contradictory to their preconceived notions and repost the exact same stuff endlessly.
Look where the Apollo hoax fools are now. Ignore it and they become even more marginalized.

[Drudgewire]

Keep it open. It's too much of a burden on the regular CT forum, like bigfoot times 20 in the general skepticism area.

[firecoins]

If you kill the 9/11 forum, the usual gang of idiots will bury the main CT forum. Think of it as a kind of quarantine. If keeping the junk from polluting the rest of forums.randi.org doesn't cost JREF anything more financially, then keep the 911CT forum going.
This is correct.

[firecoins]

Close it. There is nothing new and they just rehash old crap. Like the Apollo hoax stuff, they just ignore anything contradictory to their preconceived notions and repost the exact same stuff endlessly.
Look where the Apollo hoax fools are now. Ignore it and they become even more marginalized.
are you telling me Apollo does not ride a golden chariot across the sky everyday?

[Justin39640]

There are no fence-sitters. Seriously, there are not. Two years ago there were, and I argued to keep it open, but no longer. As we approach eight years since the event in question, about which there are more publicly available reports and studies than any event since World War II, anyone claiming to be a fence-sitter fits into one of two categories -- either someone who doesn't understand and needs instruction, or someone who hasn't done his homework and is not ready for instruction. Anyone who can operate a search engine and knows how to read can find what she's looking for, if the search is conducted in good faith.


i hate to disagree with you
ive turned two friends in the last two months that were fence sitters
im a field tech
i talk to thousands of "regular joes" a year
more than once in recent months i have gotten into a 911 discussion and even turned a few "over the fence" truthers with the info i got here (along with other resources)

i think there is a lot of lurkers that come here that never register
i have for years
yet i only registered last month
it is a great source of info and i think it would be a shame if that resource was gone (the subforum)

truthers baiting tends to make them dig their own grave
i think from the outside looking in its pretty obvious theyre all nuts lol
since this is one of the few sites with both sides represented
to lose that looking glass for lurkers may be a disservice even if youre annoyed by the insanity personally

[R.Mackey]

Those aren't fence-sitters. Those are "uneducated people."

Nothing wrong with being uneducated and wanting to learn, of course. But ask yourself: Is what this sub-forum has become the best educational resource? Two years ago it was the best place to go, but now, not so much.

[Justin39640]

Those aren't fence-sitters. Those are "uneducated people."

Nothing wrong with being uneducated and wanting to learn, of course. But ask yourself: Is what this sub-forum has become the best educational resource? Two years ago it was the best place to go, but now, not so much.

if they were educated they wouldnt be on the fence in the first place lol

[R.Mackey]

But that's exactly my point. The subforum, once upon a time, existed because there could, in theory, be some rational position taken by the opposition. Discussion and further investigation were needed. This is what we did (amid a red haze of name-calling and sockpuppet theatre).

Now, in contrast, it's abundantly clear that there is no discussion. It's over. The Truth Movement was examined and defeated in detail. There's no further question unless some shocking and unanticipated new evidence appears someday, but until then, it's time to shut it down.

What the uneducated need is a primer, not a discussion forum. Gravy's archive project would be valuable. So too are resources like 911Myths, and shows like the BBC investigation. Nothing that calls for holding this place open, in my opinion.

[Darat]

As admin:

Whilst I will of course look at the results of the poll, there are no plans currently being considered, that would indicate that the 9/11 section will be being closed.

[Justin39640]

But that's exactly my point. The subforum, once upon a time, existed because there could, in theory, be some rational position taken by the opposition. Discussion and further investigation were needed. This is what we did (amid a red haze of name-calling and sockpuppet theatre).

Now, in contrast, it's abundantly clear that there is no discussion. It's over. The Truth Movement was examined and defeated in detail. There's no further question unless some shocking and unanticipated new evidence appears someday, but until then, it's time to shut it down.

What the uneducated need is a primer, not a discussion forum. Gravy's archive project would be valuable. So too are resources like 911Myths, and shows like the BBC investigation. Nothing that calls for holding this place open, in my opinion.

the truth should have been defeated 3 minutes into the first viewing of loose change lol
unfortunately it wasnt

in 2007 it should have been dead (5 years later,2 years ago)
but it wasnt

it was just as annoying as it was today
i havnt see any new "theories" between 05- 06 (when i started gettin annoyed at "truth") till now

some people still argue the moon landings
theres no indication this will just go away on its own by ignoring it

im sorry if my posts annoy, seem dumb, etc
i know i feed some and make fun, i like a good laugh (i guess ill change my avatar too :()
but my driving force is the disrespect that truthers seem to have for victims & families, that hasnt died down at all if anything its worse than ever as the truth is holding on for dear life

[GStan]

Keep it open, but put every truther except RedIbis on ignore.

[Quad4_72]

I'm voting 'closed,' but under normal circumstances a less dramatic solution should be possible.

Two key observations:


The rancor in the subforum can be traced to a very small number of individuals. You know who I'm talking about; the only variable is the name of the latest Balsamo sock. If these individuals should happen to get themselves banned, then it would calm down here very, very quickly. It also should be said that if the rest of you lot stopped rising to their bait, it would also calm down here overnight. The moderators could solve this, but cannot be blamed for not solving this.



There are no fence-sitters. Seriously, there are not. Two years ago there were, and I argued to keep it open, but no longer. As we approach eight years since the event in question, about which there are more publicly available reports and studies than any event since World War II, anyone claiming to be a fence-sitter fits into one of two categories -- either someone who doesn't understand and needs instruction, or someone who hasn't done his homework and is not ready for instruction. Anyone who can operate a search engine and knows how to read can find what she's looking for, if the search is conducted in good faith.


Nothing new is going to happen. In six months or so Dr. Jones will scrape up enough money to buy another nonsense Bentham article, and Mr. Gage will attend another AIA conference without submitting a paper. Who cares? Nothing new is going to happen. Bank on it.

As everyone is aware, I agree with Mackey completely on this one.

[beachnut]

Is that what happen to JFK and Bigfoot? Solved, game over, people stopped spewing delusions?

[tuc0]

the truth should have been defeated 3 minutes into the first viewing of loose change lol
unfortunately it wasnt

in 2007 it should have been dead (5 years later,2 years ago)
but it wasnt

it was just as annoying as it was today
i havnt see any new "theories" between 05- 06 (when i started gettin annoyed at "truth") till now

some people still argue the moon landings
theres no indication this will just go away on its own by ignoring it

im sorry if my posts annoy, seem dumb, etc
i know i feed some and make fun, i like a good laugh (i guess ill change my avatar too :()
but my driving force is the disrespect that truthers seem to have for victims & families, that hasnt died down at all if anything its worse than ever as the truth is holding on for dear life


I'm a fan of your free-form debunker poetry :)

[Wolrab]

are you telling me Apollo does not ride a golden chariot across the sky everyday?

That was then. So as not to favor any particular religion, all the sun gods have to alternate. Apollo is lucky to make the trip once a decade. Damned cultural relativism.

[Hokulele]

I voted to keep it open. Although I agree that there are No True Fence-SittersTM, there are still people who are being turned from the CT's by posts at JREF. I would guess that most of these are younger people who started off as CTists by refusing to look at or listen to the counter-arguments. I know I just posted this very recently, but here is a snip from the post from Hourglassmemory from January of this year. (My bolding.)

In just a few months, I’ll be turning 20, grateful more than ever, that if I hadn’t gone through all of the things I went through in my mind, if I hadn’t actually believed in a gigantic myriad of things and having all these “possibilities” hit me in my heart and believing in them with vehemence and honesty, and if I hadn’t had the likes of the SGU podcast and the JREF forums I would never really understand why people fall for these things, nor do I know where I would be mentally.


The original post is rather long, but if you are currently suffering from Debunker Fatigue Syndrome, I strongly recommend following the link and reading the entire thing. It is quite encouraging.

[Donal]

I say lock it, but keep it viewable as a resource.

JFK, Apollo, vaccines etc etc don't get their own subforums, and they all seem to attract the same crowd.

Most of the topics that have been started the last year or so seem to be just about making fun of Twoofers. Which is fishing with dynamite. I really don't see this thread as productive anymore.

the reason 9/11 CTs flooded the main CT forum is because it was a hot topic a few years ago. I don't think that's the case anymore. Kind of like how there was a 2008 presidential race sub forum in politics.

Are we really worried about a specific CT being posted in the CT section?

[Hokulele]

the reason 9/11 CTs flooded the main CT forum is because it was a hot topic a few years ago. I don't think that's the case anymore. Kind of like how there was a 2008 presidential race sub forum in politics.


I think you have the sequence of events backwards. There was no forum specifically for CTs originally, they all got lumped into either General Skepticism or Politics. After Loose Change was released, there was suddenly a swarm of posts about September 11 CTs, and the Powers-That-Be decided to quarantine them in their own sub-forum, call 9/11 Conspiracy Theories, even though aspects of the discussions did include Science, Politics, and Current Affairs. Some time later, the general Conspiracy Theory sub-forum was started, and 9/11 was made a sub-forum of that one, as the various CTists who posted here started branching off into rants about Pearl Harbor, JFK, USS Liberty, etc.

[Hokulele]

OK, I should do research before posting. I looked into this a little further, and I was only half-right. The CT sub-forum did come about due to 9/11, but it was always labeled as a general topic, not specific to 9/11. Mea culpa.

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=116499 (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=116499&highlight=conspiracy+theory)

[Juniversal]

I say keep it open or as Donal said lock it but keep the information viewable. Since 9/11 conspiracy theories are so rampant and common this forum is a great resource of consolidated information. I usually can dig up facts to debunk a truther claim within seconds. Just for my sake i've gained more pertinent information in the short time i've been then I could have otherwise.

[Seymour Butz]

I voted to keep it open.

And if it were possible, I'd vote that those idiots that respond to the vile trolls like Ultima1 be taken out and flogged. Although it seems that there's more than a few sado masochists and dominatrixes floating around here, so that may not be a viable punishment. :D

It serves no purpose to respond to these trolls more than once. One response, that's all folks. Any more than that and it only serves for these wastes of protoplasm to get their rocks off.

Why do you think Ultima1's spelling was so horrible? Cuz his right hand was busy....... :boxedin:

[AJM8125]

I voted to keep it open.

And if it were possible, I'd vote that those idiots that respond to the vile trolls like Ultima1 be taken out and flogged. Although it seems that there's more than a few sado masochists and dominatrixes floating around here, so that may not be a viable punishment. :D

It serves no purpose to respond to these trolls more than once. One response, that's all folks. Any more than that and it only serves for these wastes of protoplasm to get their rocks off.

Why do you think Ultima1's spelling was so horrible? Cuz his right hand was busy....... :boxedin:

Well there's a visual that won't be leaving me anytime soon.

[Seymour Butz]

Well there's a visual that won't be leaving me anytime soon.

Good.

You were one of the worst offenders.

Look, these mouth breathers are wastes of life. There's no use to enabling their trolling. Make your point. When they don't make a direct response like the mentioned troll did.... don't keep responding with more responses that enable more dodging and weaving and trolling.

IT'S WHAT THEY LIVE FOR!!!!!!!!!!

The only excuse would be to ease the stop smoking jitters. Been there and understand it.

[Bobert]

You're absolutely right about everything, Mackey.

But...

If you kill the 9/11 forum, the usual gang of idiots will bury the main CT forum. Think of it as a kind of quarantine. If keeping the junk from polluting the rest of forums.randi.org doesn't cost JREF anything more
financially, then keep the 911CT forum going.
Good point.
keeping the 9-11 kooks quarantined is a good idea.
Maybe we could rename it,"The 9-11 treefort "?
I would like to see JREF brand all truthers with a pink lizaed avatar.

[bill smith]

From a Truther's point of view I would say on balance that it would be better to close the subforum. Word would soon get around that we had taken the head of the mighty jref. Our David against your Goliath. We would then be free to move on other fronts and gradually roll out to enlighten the wider community on other forums.
On the other hand if you choose to stay we will continue to bring the salient details of 9/11 to a growing audience of concerned citizens. Long live the Truth and God bless America..

[UNLoVedRebel]

From a Truther's point of view I would say on balance that it would be better to close the subforum. Word would soon get around that we had taken the head of the mighty jref. Our David against your Goliath. We would then be free to move on other fronts and gradually roll out to enlighten the wider community on other forums.
On the other hand if you choose to stay we will continue to bring the salient details of 9/11 to a growing audience of concerned citizens. Long live the Truth and God bless America..

http://blurredproductions.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/sisko-facepalm.jpg

[Justin39640]

I'm a fan of your free-form debunker poetry :)

lol ty
http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=4747616&postcount=240

[Grizzly Bear]

http://img394.imageshack.us/img394/374/facepalmi.jpg

Fixed

[Minadin]

I voted to close it, but that's probably because I haven't had a decent conversation with a conspiracy theorist in several months (and he ran away, as far as I can tell).

[Myriad]

From a Truther's point of view I would say on balance that it would be better to close the subforum. Word would soon get around that we had taken the head of the mighty jref.


Um, I post in many different subforums here, and I can guarantee you that this one is not the head of the JREF. No offense to the members (including myself) who post here, but this subforum is generally regarded as rather closer to the opposite end.

We would then be free to move on other fronts and gradually roll out to enlighten the wider community on other forums.


You aren't free to do that now? How is the existence of this subforum stopping you? Whatever that mysteries JREF inhibiting force might be, it would not be able to stop you if had any convincing evidence.

Respectfully,
Myriad

[Jono]

I voted for it to remain open.

[JimBenArm]

>snip<

You aren't free to do that now? How is the existence of this subforum stopping you? Whatever that mysteries JREF inhibiting force might be, it would not be able to stop you if had any convincing evidence.

Respectfully,
Myriad
Well, it's like in the paranormal part of the forum. You see, us skeptics give off inhibity rays that inhibit the ability of the woo to do anything. So as long as we're posting here, the inhibity rays will inhibity with all their inhibity-ness.

I like that word. Inhibity.

[Woody-]

Leave it open but just rename it the 9/11 truth and humor forum since the main thing I get from it is a good laugh now and then at the truthers expense.

[Dave Rogers]

From a Truther's point of view I would say on balance that it would be better to close the subforum. Word would soon get around that we had taken the head of the mighty jref. Our David against your Goliath. We would then be free to move on other fronts and gradually roll out to enlighten the wider community on other forums.


Based on the reliability of bill's predictions so far, that's a very good argument for closing the subforum.

Dave

[funk de fino]

I voted to close it. Its a troll fest nowadays.

If not close it then at least vet every thread that is started.

[bill smith]

I voted to close it. Its a troll fest nowadays.

If not close it then at least vet every thread that is started.

Where I come from they call that censorship.

[JoeyDonuts]

Where I come from they call that censorship.I never use these abbreviations, but...

ROFL! :dl: ROFL! :dl: ROFL! :dl: ROFL!

Oh boy. You honestly think you're being censored here? Or are the terms of the MA not to your liking? Seems to me, you can post whatever the hell you want as long as it stays within the parameters of the MA.

But, by all means, go ahead and shimmy up that cross and nail yourself to it. I'll hire some neighborhood kids to come throw sticks at you.

[Tweeter]

I never use these abbreviations, but...

ROFL! :dl: ROFL! :dl: ROFL! :dl: ROFL!

Oh boy. You honestly think you're being censored here? Or are the terms of the MA not to your liking? Seems to me, you can post whatever the hell you want as long as it stays within the parameters of the MA.

But, by all means, go ahead and shimmy up that cross and nail yourself to it. I'll hire some neighborhood kids to come throw sticks at you.


Joey, please show where Bill said he was being censored?

[funk de fino]

Where I come from they call that censorship.

I dont care. You are substance free. I hope you are proud.

[bill smith]

I dont care. You are substance free. I hope you are proud.

Well I still drink coffee and have the occasional fag a few dozen imes a day but for the rest I am content..

[funk de fino]

Well I still drink coffee and have the occasional fag a few dozen imes a day but for the rest I am content..

Smokin is for losers

[JoeyDonuts]

Joey, please show where Bill said he was being censored?

No. But thank you for asking politely. Besides, Captain Obvious has the day off, so he can't swoop in and write it in crayon for you.

Smokin is for losers

Excuse me? This is one area where me and ol' bill smith actually line up.

[funk de fino]

Excuse me? This is one area where me and ol' bill smith actually line up.

Nae luck.

[Locknar]

Let's put the brakes on the "Bickering Train", eh? It is not hard to do...simply discuss the OP vs making sniping at each other, which seems to be a common trend. In other words - please stay on topic and discuss the OP.

[Dave Rogers]

Yeah, 'cos if we keep on sniping, the subforum will be closed.

What? It was on-topic!

Dave

[cludgie]

Close it or place every new thread on immediately moderated status so if its the same old baseless crap and/or trolling then it gets deleted ASAP.

Mind you, if you did the latter it'd be almost like closing it down anyway.

[Edx]

If it closes wont we loose all the posts?

They are very usefull and contain a lot of information. What a waste?

[BenBurch]

Though at one time, utterly frustrated with the stick-stone-bone-stupidity of the truthers here, and the dishonesty they display, I wanted to close this forum, my current thought is that it ought to remain open forever.

We're not keeping the lie that is "truth" alive any more than we are keeping Nessie alive, or Bigfoot, or Space Alien anal probe lunacy alive.

And without a place to turn to ask for the actual fact, many people will buy the lies the 9-11 Revisionist Movement tells. Because they present imaginings as facts, misquote people, misstate conclusions, warp physics and chemistry, and in general present a united tissue of lies that appears to the newcomer to be complete and unassailable.

And because there is serious money to be made telling these lies, and charging for the books and videos that promote them, and because charlatans cannot pass up a Mark, the 9-11 Revisionist Movement is not going to end any time in my lifetime, or yours.

-Ben

[JimBenArm]

I don't think that many people would fall for their crap. Come on! Most of them don't now, and they don't know about this place. The only thing keeping these stupid ideas going is this place.
Close it. Do it now. You heard me! Do it!
Don't make me have to come back there!

[DavidJames]

If it closes wont we loose all the posts?

They are very usefull and contain a lot of information. What a waste?
It could be made read only.

[BenBurch]

I don't think that many people would fall for their crap. Come on! Most of them don't now, and they don't know about this place. The only thing keeping these stupid ideas going is this place.
Close it. Do it now. You heard me! Do it!
Don't make me have to come back there!

But, But, where am I going to find somebody I can be smugly superior to ALL THE TIME if we close this place?

I might have to take up a hobby or something.

:eek:

[Bobert]

MLet's put the brakes on the "Bickering Train", eh? It is not hard to do...simply discuss the OP vs making sniping at each other, which seems to be a common trend. In other words - please stay on topic and discuss the OP.
Or what?
You will close the 9-11 forum?
;)

ok
..ok I am sorry but I just couldn't resist

[Kent1]

I had to think about it a for a while, but I think we should keep it open. While its certainly become a troll feast with very little new information, I think everyone still has some things to learn. For starters everyone should be increasing their ignore lists.

Maybe in a few months I might change my mind.

[jhunter1163]

2011 isn't that far off, and with the enormous spike in media coverage that'll occur then, there'll no doubt be a spike in Twoofiness. Personally, I think one could leave the 9/11 subforum and come back in, say, April 2011, and not much will have changed. The leading Twoofers will then start coming out with anniversary editions of their previous stupid and possibly all-new stupid, which we debunkers will tear apart with great glee.

Speaking of anniversaries, Mrs. JHunter1163 and I are celebrating five years of wedded (mostly) bliss today. Happy anniversary, honey. Then, now, and always, I love you.

[stateofgrace]

While I don't believe the sub forum should be closed I believe it as served its purpose, that being discussing many of the conspiracies surrounding the terrorist attacks of Sept 11th. It would be a shame to simply close it but in the same token it is a magnet for trolls and cross forum arguments have broken out many times.

Why not simply move it down to the member’s only section? Here it could only be viewed by JREF members. The sub forum would retain all the information it as and anybody who was genuinely interested in the subject could continue to discuses it. For too long now this sub forum as attracted one shot posters who lurk around and decide they want to fire into the mean JREFFers.I actually feel that because this sub forum is open to anybody who are not members, who maybe have a axe to grid, can easily do so by viewing it at their leisure and quoting or misquoted what they want, when they want.With this forum being so open like this some trolls simply want to been seen socking it to the nasty JREFers, "pwning" them and then running off to other forums all the while shouting " look at me". Take this away from them, take away the attention they feel they are getting by doing this and it will stop.

Am I asking for it to hidden away? No, I'm not, no more than hiding away topics on entertainment, sport or any other topic that can be found in the member’s only section.

In a nut shell, let’s put it to bed guys; let’s stop attracting the constant attacks, the constant trolls, and the constant cross forum wars. If new information comes to light it can still be discussed in the member’s only section but to continue to wage war in an open forum like this is now pointless.


Happy anniverary to Mr and Mrs JHunter1163:).

[JimBenArm]

But, But, where am I going to find somebody I can be smugly superior to ALL THE TIME if we close this place?

I might have to take up a hobby or something.

:eek:
Hey, I'm still going to be here. It's just the ones stupider than I am that will be gone.

[BenBurch]

Hey, I'm still going to be here. It's just the ones stupider than I am that will be gone.

Hey, squid, no way I feel superior to you in the slightest.

[Minadin]

While I don't believe the sub forum should be closed I believe it as served its purpose, that being discussing many of the conspiracies surrounding the terrorist attacks of Sept 11th. It would be a shame to simply close it but in the same token it is a magnet for trolls and cross forum arguments have broken out many times.

Why not simply move it down to the member’s only section? Here it could only be viewed by JREF members. The sub forum would retain all the information it as and anybody who was genuinely interested in the subject could continue to discuses it. For too long now this sub forum as attracted one shot posters who lurk around and decide they want to fire into the mean JREFFers.I actually feel that because this sub forum is open to anybody who are not members, who maybe have a axe to grid, can easily do so by viewing it at their leisure and quoting or misquoted what they want, when they want.With this forum being so open like this some trolls simply want to been seen socking it to the nasty JREFers, "pwning" them and then running off to other forums all the while shouting " look at me". Take this away from them, take away the attention they feel they are getting by doing this and it will stop.

Am I asking for it to hidden away? No, I'm not, no more than hiding away topics on entertainment, sport or any other topic that can be found in the member’s only section.

In a nut shell, let’s put it to bed guys; let’s stop attracting the constant attacks, the constant trolls, and the constant cross forum wars. If new information comes to light it can still be discussed in the member’s only section but to continue to wage war in an open forum like this is now pointless.


Happy anniverary to Mr and Mrs JHunter1163:).


I think that moving it to the members-only area would be more detrimental to providing sound, evidence based information than simply closing it down. I would for relevant threads to still pop up in a Google search, as they currently do, so that it's available to people who are looking things up, but may not yet be familiar with JREF.

When I first became involved with helping to debunk some of this stuff, I knew a fair bit about certain aspects (being an architecture professional I kinda have to know how structures behave) but I needed references to back up my opinions and of course CT'ers run the gambit on subjects they are ignorant about, and there are many that I am also ignorant about (though I have learned a lot regarding a number of subjects in the past 3 - 4 years, I must say).

The top 4 places I was able to cite, in no particular order, were:

- Popular Mechanics
- Screw Loose Change Blog
- JREF Forum
- Maddox's Best Page in the Universe

Of those, the best and most in-depth discussion was here, and that's why I joined up, originally.

[jhunter1163]

I agree with SoG that, unfortunately, this subforum has basically become Trollstock, and I'm as guilty as anyone of rising to their bait. However, there's such a vast wealth of real information here (not the partial information and misinformation that is the Truther's stock in trade) that it would be a shame to close it down.

A lot of very smart people have put in a lot of hours to make the JREF 9/11 subforum the authoritative source that it is. You can get the answer to pretty much any 9/11-related question here, with sources, links and expert analysis. That information is certainly a valuable resource, and we should keep it available.

SoG: Mrs. Jhunter1163 and I thank you for the anniversary wish. :)

[T.A.M.]

Here is what I struggle with...

I know we are all human, and it is human nature to respond to troll bait...it is our way.

However,

We are a group of very bright individuals, and we are incredibly rational and logical people here. Why are we taking the easy way out, and suggesting a lock down of the forum?

Why are we not simply agreeing to do what I, and others such as Quad have suggested...when a troll appears, take a look at the topic he is addressing, provide him with the relative links. If he or she is not satisfied, either put them on ignore, or leave the thread in question to die a quiet death. Or, if you are in the mood, and happy to have a discussion of a topic with them, do so until it is clear they are trolling, and then do what is suggested above.

I know closing the subforum is the easiest method, but I do not think it is the best one.

TAM:)

[Kent1]

There is still some interesting discussion out there. I definitely think we should keep it open now.

While ATS is teaming with bad outdated/outlandish claims, someone under the handle "pteridine" has been doing a fantastic job. Its amazing how easy he chops up the opposition and keeps a cool head despite the abundance of trolls.

[Hokulele]

I think that moving it to the members-only area would be more detrimental to providing sound, evidence based information than simply closing it down. I would for relevant threads to still pop up in a Google search, as they currently do, so that it's available to people who are looking things up, but may not yet be familiar with JREF.


Someone please correct me if I am wrong, but don't Google searches give preference to sites with active traffic? In other words, if this forum were set to read-only, Google would still index and list it as a search result, but farther down the list and below forums with recent activity. This is something that came up on a work-related blog I contribute to (locking archived articles), and I think this is what we found out.

If it is the case, maybe we should be thanking the trolls for keeping JREF near the top of the Google search returns. :D

[Zorglub]

Open.

This way I can avoid 9/11-stupid if I choose to and enjoy the other craziness in the "ordinary" conspiracy forum if I choose to.
I just wish there were more chemtrails/birthers/black helicopters/FEMA death camps-CT´s around. They´re funnier than the deniers.

This way ye olde conspiracy theory down the corner can make its voice heard.

[Magenta]

I didn't vote in the poll as the question is irrelevant, as per Darat's post (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=4814255&postcount=27).

Also, I agree very strongly with what TAM said:

Here is what I struggle with...

I know we are all human, and it is human nature to respond to troll bait...it is our way.

However,

We are a group of very bright individuals, and we are incredibly rational and logical people here. Why are we taking the easy way out, and suggesting a lock down of the forum?

Why are we not simply agreeing to do what I, and others such as Quad have suggested...when a troll appears, take a look at the topic he is addressing, provide him with the relative links. If he or she is not satisfied, either put them on ignore, or leave the thread in question to die a quiet death. Or, if you are in the mood, and happy to have a discussion of a topic with them, do so until it is clear they are trolling, and then do what is suggested above.

I know closing the subforum is the easiest method, but I do not think it is the best one.

TAM:)


I think this sub-forum would be greatly improved if more posters exercised some restraint - the trolls and other members of the Not Terribly Bright Club that is trutherdom don't get 4-figure post counts by talking amongst themselves...

Also, having to wade through pages of bickering and nonsense dilutes the effectiveness of the "link it and leave it" approach advocated by TAM and others and, I think, undermines the usefulness of this forum as a resource for researching and countering 9/11 CTs.

ETA: As this is a perennial topic and there are some (relatively) new members, I looked up a couple of threads from October 2008 where some good points were made:

Some observations and statistics about this sub-forum (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=4112860) by Gravy, and from Forum Management

The 9/11 Conspiracy section (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=126095)

[Minadin]

Someone please correct me if I am wrong, but don't Google searches give preference to sites with active traffic? In other words, if this forum were set to read-only, Google would still index and list it as a search result, but farther down the list and below forums with recent activity. This is something that came up on a work-related blog I contribute to (locking archived articles), and I think this is what we found out.

If it is the case, maybe we should be thanking the trolls for keeping JREF near the top of the Google search returns. :D

That may be the case, I am not sure; but if it's stuck into the members-only area as SoT suggested, it's not going to be indexed at all.

[UNLoVedRebel]

One last bump for those who haven't voted yet. You got 25 minutes. I think we have our concensus. But I don't know how accurate it is. Katherine Harris did the counting. :wackylaugh:

[firecoins]

I demand a recount! Military votes haven't been counted yet.

[LashL]

I voted 'No' because, of course, the subforum should remain open, and it will do so for the foreseeable future.

I agree with some of the points raised about the quality of the posts in the subforum in recent months etc., but that has little to no bearing on the issue of whether or not the subforum should remain. It should, and it will.

[rjh01]

If 5 yes people changed their vote then the vote would be 2 / 3 saying no.

Darat's opinion is the one that counts and he posted above.