Skeptical Greg
3rd December 2003, 12:10 PM
Is that redundant?
Anyway, I bring this post by ehbowen into a new thread..
I feel it offers the possibility of many tangents...
Originally posted by ehbowen
A theoretical chance of winning? Probably so. A practical chance of winning? I think not.
I think that the "process" I outlined above, of how the space-time continuum takes shape, applies to Satan also--except in reverse. Whereas God is acting to sculpt events for maximum positive impact, Satan is reaching through time trying to arrange and order events so that (preferably) he wins or, failing that, that he manages to get off without punishment.
I think it's an open question as to whether Satan enjoys evil and misery for evil and misery's sake. I tend to think not; tyrants and dictators like their palaces, servants, and comforts. Rather, I tend to think that the maximum amount of evil and misery provides: a) the maximum amount of opportunity to pressure men to curse God; b) the maximum number of instances in which men rebel against God, which leads to: c) the maximum chance of success with the "all those people" defense ("God, surely you wouldn't condemn all those people...."). And that, I believe, is the reason Satan is actively working to make things as bad as he possibly can.
To really get a feel for how Satan works "behind the scenes," I believe you need to start with the story of Job. God didn't hate Job; he wasn't out to get Job; he was holding Job up as a living example of everything that was good and right in a human being. What did Satan say? "Destroy his wealth and he'll curse you to your face!" So God allowed Satan to reduce Job to poverty, but all Job said was, "Naked I came from my mother's womb, and naked shall I return there. The Lord gave, and the Lord has taken away; blessed be the name of the Lord." Did Satan then say, "Well, God, guess you were right and I was wrong?" No. If you were a poker player, you might say he called and raised: "Touch his bone and his flesh, and he will surely curse you to your face!"
I believe the key to understanding the spiritual conflict and the present state of this world is this: This process has never ended! Satan has never--so far--admitted defeat! I think that this conflict continued all throughout the Old Testament period, right up through the crucifixion of Jesus. With every indignity that was laid upon Jesus, I think Satan was saying, in so many words, "If I do this, I can break him. No?? Well, if only I do this I can break him! What? Well, if I do this, surely I can break him!" I believe that Satan did everything which was within his power to do to Jesus--and Jesus did not break. Satan had lost.
But did Satan admit that he had lost? I think not. Rather, I think that since then, Satan's ongoing refrain has been, "Well, if only this had been different, then I would have won." And that is, I believe, why God rearranged the universe to give rise to what I envision as the multibranched structure of the space-time continuum. Every branch is yet another opportunity for God to show Satan that, even if this or that circumstance was different, Satan still loses.
What is the logical end of this scenario? I believe it ends with Satan saying, in so many words, "If I was God, then I would have won!" If Satan has all the power of almighty God, and still loses--then he has utterly lost. From that point, there is no "up." And that is, I believe, what is happening! Satan has, I believe, in truth been given the chance to be the "god of this world." I believe he has been given--on "loan", as it were; it's not inherently his--the same ability to reach back through time and sculpt events in his favor that God has.
But what circumscribes that ability? The free choices of individuals. I believe that if Satan intervenes directly, then God will respond directly in kind. And in a direct no-holds-barred wrestling match, God wins. And so Satan cannot force individuals to do as he wishes; he must tempt and entice. As an example, I believe that he sincerely wanted nothing more than for Kennedy and Kruschev to push the button back in 1963. And I think he did everything in his power to get those individuals to start World War III. Of their own free will and free choice, they refused--and Satan has now given up trying to change that; it is in the past.
I'm envisioning the space-time continuum as a multibranched, multidimensional structure. And I believe that each individual branch is yet another opportunity for God to demonstrate that, whatever the circumstances, Satan loses. I think that, when it becomes clear to Satan that his position within a branch is hopeless, that he abandons that branch. And so he is trapped within an ever-shrinking region of space and time.
I could be wrong about this, but I believe that Satan will come to his end with a whimper, not a bang. At some point in the future, I believe that someone is going to give him the policeman's tap on the shoulder and say, "You're under arrest." And I believe that it is from that point in the future that Satan is reaching back into the region of the space-time continuum between Now and Then, trying desperately to craft some way of escape. This point which we call Now represents the point at which he despairs of being able to do any more to shift events in his favor. That point which is Then represents the absolute maximum amount of leeway he has been able to beg, borrow, or steal by way of his constant and never-ending appeals. There was, I believe, a point in which that region of time was growing, and Satan was able to convince himself (and many others) that he had won. Now, I am convinced, it is steadily shrinking, at the rate of sixty minutes an hour. At some point in the not-too-distant future, I believe that Now and Then will converge--and Satan's battle will be over.
And so that is why I say that, theoretically, I believe that Satan still has a chance of winning. Now has not yet become then, and there is a chance--theoretically--that he may be able to shift events in his favor, for a time--September 11, 2001 may represent such a shift--or that he may be able to craft yet another "appeal" to win a bit more time. But I am persuaded--call it a religious belief if you will--that all he can do in either case will be temporary, that at some point Now and Then will still converge. Personally, I believe that the key that will seal Satan's fate is new revelation--that if there is direct contact between Heaven and Earth, new and open knowledge of the nature and character and purpose and plan of God, when the "mystery of God" is finished (Rev. 10:7), then Satan can not long endure. And I believe that he knows that and is fighting against that with all his might.
I have seen events that convince me that God does indeed intend to reveal himself; in fact, I believe that this will happen within my lifetime. Based on those events, I conclude that the highest and best direction for my life is to pursue that direct contact with God. And so I believe that the "tracks" which lead to Satan's downfall are already in place; if there was an alternate possibility in which God did not reveal himself, then I believe that I wouldn't have experienced what I did in fact experience. I believe that if I pursue contact with God with all my heart, I will in fact receive that contact, in this world and in this life--as long as I do not give up. And I am resolved to never give up. Even if I did give up, I believe that God would be (and probably is) seeking out someone else to make that contact with, and so Satan would still lose.
And this is why I say that I do not believe there is a practical possibility that Satan will win. For Satan to win, I would have to give up, God would have to give up, every Christian who is out there would have to give up, every angel who is fighting Satan would have to give up, et cetera and et cetera. Possible? In theory, I suppose. Is it going to happen? I don't think so. And at some point, I'm convinced, Satan himself is going to agree--kicking and screaming--that there is nothing more he can do to keep Heaven and Earth apart. When the day finally comes when man and God can walk and talk together in this world, in this life, then from that point on the game is a lay-down. Maranatha.
I'm not sure where to begin..
You ( Eric ) were responding to the question by calladus:
Originally posted by calladus
God only has absolute power over Heaven? Satan can mess him up in the conflict over Earth? Wait a minute!
Either God is all powerful, and he WANTS satan to screw around so that souls can be lost, or God is NOT all powerful, and satan has a real chance of winning. (No matter how small a chance.)
There seems to be a logical inconsistency here - but maybe that's the point.
1. If you allow for the possibility for Satan to win, I think it would behoove you to substantiate your belief that the chances for such an outcome are slim. The record so far seems to indicate otherwise. Past performance is a good indicator of future performance.
2. ( and the poinT of my use of the word "Revelation " in my topic ) You indicate a desire and a reason to believe God may try to contact you, and that this contact is crucial to the outcome of the battle between God and Satan..
That's pretty heavy stuff Eric. Can you elaborate?
Anyway, I bring this post by ehbowen into a new thread..
I feel it offers the possibility of many tangents...
Originally posted by ehbowen
A theoretical chance of winning? Probably so. A practical chance of winning? I think not.
I think that the "process" I outlined above, of how the space-time continuum takes shape, applies to Satan also--except in reverse. Whereas God is acting to sculpt events for maximum positive impact, Satan is reaching through time trying to arrange and order events so that (preferably) he wins or, failing that, that he manages to get off without punishment.
I think it's an open question as to whether Satan enjoys evil and misery for evil and misery's sake. I tend to think not; tyrants and dictators like their palaces, servants, and comforts. Rather, I tend to think that the maximum amount of evil and misery provides: a) the maximum amount of opportunity to pressure men to curse God; b) the maximum number of instances in which men rebel against God, which leads to: c) the maximum chance of success with the "all those people" defense ("God, surely you wouldn't condemn all those people...."). And that, I believe, is the reason Satan is actively working to make things as bad as he possibly can.
To really get a feel for how Satan works "behind the scenes," I believe you need to start with the story of Job. God didn't hate Job; he wasn't out to get Job; he was holding Job up as a living example of everything that was good and right in a human being. What did Satan say? "Destroy his wealth and he'll curse you to your face!" So God allowed Satan to reduce Job to poverty, but all Job said was, "Naked I came from my mother's womb, and naked shall I return there. The Lord gave, and the Lord has taken away; blessed be the name of the Lord." Did Satan then say, "Well, God, guess you were right and I was wrong?" No. If you were a poker player, you might say he called and raised: "Touch his bone and his flesh, and he will surely curse you to your face!"
I believe the key to understanding the spiritual conflict and the present state of this world is this: This process has never ended! Satan has never--so far--admitted defeat! I think that this conflict continued all throughout the Old Testament period, right up through the crucifixion of Jesus. With every indignity that was laid upon Jesus, I think Satan was saying, in so many words, "If I do this, I can break him. No?? Well, if only I do this I can break him! What? Well, if I do this, surely I can break him!" I believe that Satan did everything which was within his power to do to Jesus--and Jesus did not break. Satan had lost.
But did Satan admit that he had lost? I think not. Rather, I think that since then, Satan's ongoing refrain has been, "Well, if only this had been different, then I would have won." And that is, I believe, why God rearranged the universe to give rise to what I envision as the multibranched structure of the space-time continuum. Every branch is yet another opportunity for God to show Satan that, even if this or that circumstance was different, Satan still loses.
What is the logical end of this scenario? I believe it ends with Satan saying, in so many words, "If I was God, then I would have won!" If Satan has all the power of almighty God, and still loses--then he has utterly lost. From that point, there is no "up." And that is, I believe, what is happening! Satan has, I believe, in truth been given the chance to be the "god of this world." I believe he has been given--on "loan", as it were; it's not inherently his--the same ability to reach back through time and sculpt events in his favor that God has.
But what circumscribes that ability? The free choices of individuals. I believe that if Satan intervenes directly, then God will respond directly in kind. And in a direct no-holds-barred wrestling match, God wins. And so Satan cannot force individuals to do as he wishes; he must tempt and entice. As an example, I believe that he sincerely wanted nothing more than for Kennedy and Kruschev to push the button back in 1963. And I think he did everything in his power to get those individuals to start World War III. Of their own free will and free choice, they refused--and Satan has now given up trying to change that; it is in the past.
I'm envisioning the space-time continuum as a multibranched, multidimensional structure. And I believe that each individual branch is yet another opportunity for God to demonstrate that, whatever the circumstances, Satan loses. I think that, when it becomes clear to Satan that his position within a branch is hopeless, that he abandons that branch. And so he is trapped within an ever-shrinking region of space and time.
I could be wrong about this, but I believe that Satan will come to his end with a whimper, not a bang. At some point in the future, I believe that someone is going to give him the policeman's tap on the shoulder and say, "You're under arrest." And I believe that it is from that point in the future that Satan is reaching back into the region of the space-time continuum between Now and Then, trying desperately to craft some way of escape. This point which we call Now represents the point at which he despairs of being able to do any more to shift events in his favor. That point which is Then represents the absolute maximum amount of leeway he has been able to beg, borrow, or steal by way of his constant and never-ending appeals. There was, I believe, a point in which that region of time was growing, and Satan was able to convince himself (and many others) that he had won. Now, I am convinced, it is steadily shrinking, at the rate of sixty minutes an hour. At some point in the not-too-distant future, I believe that Now and Then will converge--and Satan's battle will be over.
And so that is why I say that, theoretically, I believe that Satan still has a chance of winning. Now has not yet become then, and there is a chance--theoretically--that he may be able to shift events in his favor, for a time--September 11, 2001 may represent such a shift--or that he may be able to craft yet another "appeal" to win a bit more time. But I am persuaded--call it a religious belief if you will--that all he can do in either case will be temporary, that at some point Now and Then will still converge. Personally, I believe that the key that will seal Satan's fate is new revelation--that if there is direct contact between Heaven and Earth, new and open knowledge of the nature and character and purpose and plan of God, when the "mystery of God" is finished (Rev. 10:7), then Satan can not long endure. And I believe that he knows that and is fighting against that with all his might.
I have seen events that convince me that God does indeed intend to reveal himself; in fact, I believe that this will happen within my lifetime. Based on those events, I conclude that the highest and best direction for my life is to pursue that direct contact with God. And so I believe that the "tracks" which lead to Satan's downfall are already in place; if there was an alternate possibility in which God did not reveal himself, then I believe that I wouldn't have experienced what I did in fact experience. I believe that if I pursue contact with God with all my heart, I will in fact receive that contact, in this world and in this life--as long as I do not give up. And I am resolved to never give up. Even if I did give up, I believe that God would be (and probably is) seeking out someone else to make that contact with, and so Satan would still lose.
And this is why I say that I do not believe there is a practical possibility that Satan will win. For Satan to win, I would have to give up, God would have to give up, every Christian who is out there would have to give up, every angel who is fighting Satan would have to give up, et cetera and et cetera. Possible? In theory, I suppose. Is it going to happen? I don't think so. And at some point, I'm convinced, Satan himself is going to agree--kicking and screaming--that there is nothing more he can do to keep Heaven and Earth apart. When the day finally comes when man and God can walk and talk together in this world, in this life, then from that point on the game is a lay-down. Maranatha.
I'm not sure where to begin..
You ( Eric ) were responding to the question by calladus:
Originally posted by calladus
God only has absolute power over Heaven? Satan can mess him up in the conflict over Earth? Wait a minute!
Either God is all powerful, and he WANTS satan to screw around so that souls can be lost, or God is NOT all powerful, and satan has a real chance of winning. (No matter how small a chance.)
There seems to be a logical inconsistency here - but maybe that's the point.
1. If you allow for the possibility for Satan to win, I think it would behoove you to substantiate your belief that the chances for such an outcome are slim. The record so far seems to indicate otherwise. Past performance is a good indicator of future performance.
2. ( and the poinT of my use of the word "Revelation " in my topic ) You indicate a desire and a reason to believe God may try to contact you, and that this contact is crucial to the outcome of the battle between God and Satan..
That's pretty heavy stuff Eric. Can you elaborate?