Coroner Rules 350-Pound Man's Death a Homicide

[Tony]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,104721,00.html ...full article

CINCINNATI — The death of a 350-pound black man who was clubbed by police in a videotaped beating was caused primarily by the struggle that ensued after the suspect lunged and swung at the officers, the coroner said Wednesday in a case that has heightened racial tensions.

Hamilton County Coroner Carl Parrott said Nathaniel Jones (search), 41, suffered from an enlarged heart, obesity and had intoxicating levels of cocaine, PCP and methanol (search) in his blood.

He said the death will be ruled a homicide, but added that such a decision does not mean police used "excessive force." The coroner said he had to rule the death a homicide because it did not fall under the other categories: accident, suicide or natural.



I think the idea that race played a part in this is stupid. Nevertheless, the police and the system are at fault for this guy's death. WTF is up with beating people with nightsticks? When an animal has escaped from the zoo, they use a tranquilizer gun. Why can’t something similar be used on humans in situations like this?

[ssibal]

Originally posted by Tony
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,104721,00.html ...full article




I think the idea that race played a part in this is stupid. Nevertheless, the police and the system are at fault for this guy's death. WTF is up with beating people with nightsticks? When an animal has escaped from the zoo, they use a tranquilizer gun. Why can’t something similar be used on humans in situations like this?

It will not be used on humans because people will say that it is too inhumane..:rolleyes: As for this guy's death, I think he is to blame for attacking the police officers and resisting arrest. I see nothing wrong with their actions.

[zakur]

Use PCP And Become Another Statistic (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A29964-2003Dec2.html)

[Ralph]

I think the video shows him trying very hard to get the nightstick away from the cop. I think when it escalates to this point the police have a right to feel their own lives are in danger and act appropriately. I wouldn't want to be on the recieving end of a club in the hands of a 350lb man.
They found 3 cigarettes dipped in embalming fluid on him.....not sure if he'd had one of those beforehand.

I think if you have a bad a heart---a tazer can push you over the edge. I don't think this guy was in great shape from a cardio-vascular point of view. A tazer may have killed him too.

I also think heavy clothing can block a taser.....

They're also not cheap. Most police depts today are pretty budget concious and I don't think it's the norm to issue every patrolman a tazer........

[EvilYeti]

Originally posted by Tony
Why can’t something similar be used on humans in situations like this?

Well, the problem with tranq guns is that they take a fair amount of time to take effect and have to be dosed based on the body weight of the perp. Too much and you cause cardiac arrest, not enough and the criminal just becomes more intoxicated.

There is something called an air taser, a stun gun that shoots wired darts about 15 feet, enabling remote electrocution. Many police forces carry these now.

Of course, police being bullies, they would much rather beat civillians with a blunt instrument.

[The Fool]

My thoughts are this should just be handled in the normal way,Deaths during arest and during custody are hardly rare.....a man is dead. How did it happen? Were the police who killed him guilty of a crime? Let the courts decide. The few snippets of evidence I am likely to see on television are simply not adequate to make a conclusion.

[BTox]

Originally posted by Tony
I think the idea that race played a part in this is stupid. Nevertheless, the police and the system are at fault for this guy's death. WTF is up with beating people with nightsticks? When an animal has escaped from the zoo, they use a tranquilizer gun. Why can’t something similar be used on humans in situations like this?

I've heard that the police force in Cinn. have access to a new non-lethal weapon that shoots a chemical incapacitation round that supposedly can subdue a bear. However it is not distributed to all officers and was not available during this event. Heard this on the radio and have not seen any confirmation.

[FFed]

I can't remember all the details of the case but a couple years or so ago in Seattle a police officer was killed by some thug who I think was charging at him with a knife. They were talking about how the officer must have been thinking about all the consequences or fallout of him shooting this black guy. There was several cases of police shooting black people before this and people where saying they were only shot because they were black. It was thought that in this case the officers hesitation cost him his life. A police officer with a wife and kids who is doing his job to protect and serve his community is killed, while some scum criminal is alive all because some people cry racism over every little thing.

[Cleon]

Just to note: Over the past few years, the Cincinatti police department has almost made a sport out of killing unarmed black men. This isn't some isolated incident we're talking about, here.

If there's been a troublesome pattern, as with the Cincy PD, there's nothing wrong with mentioning the possibility that race is a factor.

[HarryKeogh]

i saw the video and if i was a cop and a 350 lb. mountain of a man refuses to obey my instructions and attacks me i will hit him repeatedly with my nightstick as well.

and the coroner stresses how ruling the death a homicide does not mean the cops acted out of line. he also noted there was no trauma to the head.

[T'ai Chi]

Count the number of strikes...There are well over 30.

I'm not saying the black guy was innocent, or didn't take a swing, etc., but there seems a clear point to me where the black guy isn't trying to fight anymore but rather is just trying to get up, but they just keep on hitting him.

Cops should have a way to for many cops to be able to handcuff a single large and violent person in my opinion.

[Grammatron]

Originally posted by Cleon
Just to note: Over the past few years, the Cincinatti police department has almost made a sport out of killing unarmed black men. This isn't some isolated incident we're talking about, here.

If there's been a troublesome pattern, as with the Cincy PD, there's nothing wrong with mentioning the possibility that race is a factor.

And of course the fact that they scaled back their police force and the crimes in the "problem areas" went up is completely ignored by you since it wouldn't fit into your point.


People are ignoring few facts about this incident. First of all, the coroner reported there were no injuries to the head which means the police were trying to subdue the man and not kick the crap out of him. The video clearly shows him striking an officer BEFORE the officer responds with appropriate force. And most importantly, people on PCP are nowhere near normal. They act erratically and depending on how much they are on can feel little pain. There have been cases of people on PCP being shot and continuing on as if nothing happened. Add to that fact that he is 300+ pounds and it's very, very hard to arrest someone like that when they are resisting.

[Jon_in_london]

Originally posted by T'ai Chi
Count the number of strikes...There are well over 30.

I'm not saying the black guy was innocent, or didn't take a swing, etc., but there seems a clear point to me where the black guy isn't trying to fight anymore but rather is just trying to get up, but they just keep on hitting him.

Cops should have a way to for many cops to be able to handcuff a single large and violent person in my opinion.

T'ai:

The guy
1: disobeyed the officers warnings to stay back.
2: Assaulted the police officer
3: resisted arrest. You might notice that the police are trying to get him to lie still and put his hands behind his back. Clearly he isnt doing that, in fact he is trying to get up so the police are entitled to use force to affect the arrest, notice that at the end of the tape there are about 8 police pinning him down so he can be handcuffed. Bearing in mind how large he was and how hard he struggled, I think the police were quite restrained mainly jabbing him with the end of the truncheon.
4: Was morbidly obese
5: Was hopped up on PCP and embalming fluid!!!!

How can anyone possibly be suprised the guy had a cardiac?! I'd be suprised if he didnt!

So clearly this is the fault of the police officers?
What else could they have done? Just lie on the floor and let the 350-pound psycho kick them to death?

[Garrette]

I have not seen the video and know little about this individual case, but I have experience with this type of incident. In general, the perception of police actions is worse than the actuality.

I couldn't access Zakur's link, but the effect of PCP on an individual is an important one. I have personally never had to deal with someone on PCP (I've dealt with people on other drugs and having seizures and suffering from closed head trauma), but I know many who have and have been through the training on those situations. I know of at least one instance in which a large man on PCP 'went wild' on local police. He died very soon after being handcuffed. Yes, nightsticks had been used on him. Like the Cincinnati case, this was videotaped (it happened in a store with security cameras). The coroner told the police that if the man had not fought but had instead driven himself to the emergency room, he would still have died.

Positional Asphyxia is another concern which law enforcement agencies and security departments are training on more and more. It is especially a factor with obese people. It refers to a compression or constriction (excuse please if my terminology is not completely medically accurate, but I think you get the idea) of the lungs caused by an abnormal position. The position is one which in most people does not affect the ability to breathe, but in some individuals does. Placing an obese person on their chest or placing their arms behind their backs (for instance, to handcuff them) contributes. Doing both can be fatal.

Unfortunately, the police do not always have a best option; they must balance concern for the individual with personal safety. When the two conflict, personal safety will win out. I do not believe this is wrong.

[Jon_in_london]

Originally posted by Garrette
The position is one which in most people does not affect the ability to breathe, but in some individuals does. Placing an obese person on their chest or placing their arms behind their backs (for instance, to handcuff them) contributes. Doing both can be fatal.



Sounds very much like what happens during crucifiction

[Jon_in_london]

heres a link on PCP:

http://www.nida.nih.gov/Infofax/pcp.html

PCP is the thing Nancy Reagan was right about!

[T'ai Chi]

Originally posted by Jon_in_london

T'ai:

The guy
1: disobeyed the officers warnings to stay back.
2: Assaulted the police officer
3: resisted arrest. You might notice that the police are trying to get him to lie still and put his hands behind his back. Clearly he isnt doing that, in fact he is trying to get up so the police are entitled to use force to affect the arrest, notice that at the end of the tape there are about 8 police pinning him down so he can be handcuffed. Bearing in mind how large he was and how hard he struggled, I think the police were quite restrained mainly jabbing him with the end of the truncheon.
4: Was morbidly obese
5: Was hopped up on PCP and embalming fluid!!!!


Yup, all of those are true from what I know from what I've seen on the news. However, there was not only jabs from the nightsticks, but also clubbing.

When you see the full video, could you do me a favor and count the number of hits the man took? How much until it is excessive violence?


What else could they have done? Just lie on the floor and let the 350-pound psycho kick them to death?

How about restrain but not beat? Like all the officers pile up on the guy instead of clubbing him? Even 3 or 4 well trained police officers should be able to subdue a high obese person I'd hope. Or a taser? A spray?

Hey, when you're high and many guys are jabbing you in the ribs and clubbing you in the back and elsewhere, see how easy it is to put your hands behind your back and how easy it is to lie still. I'ts human nature to keep your hands up and move as a reflex action in hopes of defending yourself. That doesn't mean he was still fighting though. He just didn't want to be struck with more clubs.

[Garrette]

T'ai Chi

When you see the full video, could you do me a favor and count the number of hits the man took? How much until it is excessive violence?

When they continue after either
(1) the individual stops resisting OR
(2) the individual is under control so that he no longer presents a threat

[I[T'ai Chi[/I]

How about restrain but not beat? Like all the officers pile up on the guy instead of clubbing him? Even 3 or 4 well trained police officers should be able to subdue a high obese person I'd hope. Or a taser? A spray?

Not as easy as it sounds. Tasers are not available to everyone; there is still controversy about their safety, especially when the medical condition of the target individual is not known. Sprays do not work on everyone even under normal circumstances; they do not work on a larger number of people under the influence of PCP or something else.

I know you have martial arts experience, but have you been involved in the restraint of an individual of abnormal size and strength under the influence of a drug (or in the presence of some other factor such as a seizure)? Far more difficult than it appears, and most police officers do not get martial arts training as part of the job.

As I said, I have never been involved in dealing with someone on PCP, but I have dealt with people on other drugs, and drunk, and in seizure.

I vividly recall a 14 year old boy in one of the Trauma Rooms at Hardin Memorial Hospital. I estimate he weighed about 105 pounds (no idea how many kilos or stones that is, but it's not big).

He had fought the paramedics on the way in. He calmed a while and we got him on the gurney. Before we could apply restraints, he seized again. He was lying flat on his back. One paramedic and one trained security officer on each leg, one security officer and one nurse on each arm/shoulder. I was on his head, standing at the head of the gurney with my palms on his forehead to keep him from raising his head. This is generally sufficient to keep anyone from getting up.

It didn't work. He seized again and lifted every limb, shook off most of the people holding him. He lifted his head, so I squatted down with my arms up and my fingers interlocked over his forehead, applying my weight to keep him down. He lifted me off the floor. Just his neck muscles.

We finally controlled him with a combination of two other large male nurses lying on top of him while everyone else regained control of his limbs and his seizure stopping.

T'ai Chi

Hey, when you're high and many guys are jabbing you in the ribs and clubbing you in the back and elsewhere, see how easy it is to put your hands behind your back and how easy it is to lie still. I'ts human nature to keep your hands up and move as a reflex action in hopes of defending yourself. That doesn't mean he was still fighting though. He just didn't want to be struck with more clubs.

Yes, it is natural, and it is possible in this instance (remember, I admit not having seen it) that the cops over-reacted.

It's also possible that his movements were not defensive or submissive.

When I train security departments, I teach them about the 'wrestler's stance' (Rodney King used this during his videotaped beating) which is not a submissive stance but a stance preparatory to getting up and launching yourself at someone. To someone unfamiliar with it, it appears unthreatening.

Covering your head and curling into a fetal position are the truly natural submissive response to being struck. Actively trying to [apparently] deflect blows is not.

[Jon_in_london]

Originally posted by T'ai Chi


Yup, all of those are true from what I know from what I've seen on the news. However, there was not only jabs from the nightsticks, but also clubbing.

When you see the full video, could you do me a favor and count the number of hits the man took? How much until it is excessive violence?

How about restrain but not beat? Like all the officers pile up on the guy instead of clubbing him? Even 3 or 4 well trained police officers should be able to subdue a high obese person I'd hope. Or a taser? A spray?

Hey, when you're high and many guys are jabbing you in the ribs and clubbing you in the back and elsewhere, see how easy it is to put your hands behind your back and how easy it is to lie still. I'ts human nature to keep your hands up and move as a reflex action in hopes of defending yourself. That doesn't mean he was still fighting though. He just didn't want to be struck with more clubs. [/B]

So far as I can see, none of it was uneccesary. They didnt keep hitting him once they had him under control. At least not that you can see from the video.

I'd rremind you that in the first instance there were only two officers there and they werent able to control him, looking at the vid it took more than 4 (6-8?) to get him under control. Dont forget that just because he is morbidly obese doesnt mean he isnt strong as an ox. Factor in the fact that he was on PCP and you will see (I hope) why he behaved in the way he did. Its possible he didnt even feel anything in any case and was lost in some bizarre and horrific PCP induced psychosis.

Edit- Dont forget that tasers and 'pepper sprays' are also far from harmless, permanent damage and even death can result from the use of both.

[Yahweh]

Originally posted by T'ai Chi
Count the number of strikes...There are well over 30.

I'm not saying the black guy was innocent, or didn't take a swing, etc., but there seems a clear point to me where the black guy isn't trying to fight anymore but rather is just trying to get up, but they just keep on hitting him.

Cops should have a way to for many cops to be able to handcuff a single large and violent person in my opinion.

This guy was huge and weighed in excess of 350 lbs. Add to the fact he the guy was hopped up on crack, PCP, embalming fluids, and possibly other drugs. The combination of those drugs will make you lose touch with reality. PCP alone removes all sensation of pain, it gives you an unbelievable feeling of invicibility and grandeur, its known as a "gang" drug because it does not make you see or feel bad for your actions (i.e. it makes you want to fight).

Quite literally, that man would not have gone down until he'd died.

[Kodiak]

I could never be a cop.

Why?

If you've seen the entire video clip, the very beginning of the confrontation shows the now-dead 350 lb. subject move from left to right in front of the video camera with an officer in a head lock and another officer in a white officer's cap following from behind.

If I had been that officer in the white cap, I would have drawn my sidearm and shot the perpetrator in the back of the head and beed done with it then and there.

I praise the officers for their restraint.

I don't know how they do it...

[Cleon]

Originally posted by Grammatron


And of course the fact that they scaled back their police force and the crimes in the "problem areas" went up is completely ignored by you since it wouldn't fit into your point.

Well, it's completely irrelevant to my point. Whether they downsized their PD or not has little to do with their behavioral history. Further, I make no claims about whether the man in question was assaulted maliciously or not. Because frankly, I don't know. Ultimately, it won't matter what I think or not; it's for the courts to decide (though if I were a betting man I'd put money on a "not guilty" verdict, if the DA even decides to prosecute).

My point is simply that since the Cincy cops have a history of killing unarmed blacks, if it continues to happen people are bound to ask if racism plays a role. There's nothing unreasonable about raising such questions--even if malicious intent wasn't present for this particular incident.

[Grammatron]

Originally posted by Cleon


Well, it's completely irrelevant to my point. Whether they downsized their PD or not has little to do with their behavioral history. Further, I make no claims about whether the man in question was assaulted maliciously or not. Because frankly, I don't know. Ultimately, it won't matter what I think or not; it's for the courts to decide (though if I were a betting man I'd put money on a "not guilty" verdict, if the DA even decides to prosecute).

My point is simply that since the Cincy cops have a history of killing unarmed blacks, if it continues to happen people are bound to ask if racism plays a role. There's nothing unreasonable about raising such questions--even if malicious intent wasn't present for this particular incident.

Except that in this instance police did not kill an unarmed black man.

[EvilYeti]

While I don't condone police brutality, I shed no tears for the victim. He is just a culpable in his own death as the police are.

[renata]

Originally posted by Cleon


Just to note: Over the past few years, the Cincinatti police department has almost made a sport out of killing unarmed black men. This isn't some isolated incident we're talking about, here.

If there's been a troublesome pattern, as with the Cincy PD, there's nothing wrong with mentioning the possibility that race is a factor.

and later

My point is simply that since the Cincy cops have a history of killing unarmed blacks, if it continues to happen people are bound to ask if racism plays a role. There's nothing unreasonable about raising such questions--even if malicious intent wasn't present for this particular incident.

Saw this in LA Times today, thought appropriate.
http://www.latimes.com/la-na-cincy4dec04,1,2723311.story

Cincinnati's coroner on Wednesday ruled the weekend death of Nathaniel Jones a homicide — the direct result of Jones' clash with six police officers who repeatedly struck him with nightsticks as they struggled to subdue him.

Hamilton County Coroner Carl Parrott Jr. quickly added that he was not implying the police had used excessive force. Calling the death a homicide, he said, "does not imply hostile or malign intent."
....

The ruling infuriated police. "These officers did nothing wrong," said Roger Webster, the president of the police union.

It also angered black activists, who seized on the coroner's report as proof that police brutality in Cincinnati continues unchecked, despite much-heralded reforms. Jones was the 18th black man in the last eight years to be killed while fighting or fleeing Cincinnati officers.
.....

"It would be nice if police officers were held accountable, if they were sent to jail for killing people," added Juleana Frierson, a leader in the Black United Front, which has pressed for tourists and entertainers to boycott the city. "But I don't see any changes. I don't have any real hope."

Her group is organizing a rally on the steps of City Hall for Sunday, followed by a march on the courthouse to call for justice.

The police officers' union, meanwhile, issued its own call for justice — for its men and women in uniform.

Union leaders have grown weary of pointing out that the 18 men lumped together as "victims of police brutality" included an ax-wielding killer who had just decapitated a teenager, a bank robber who shot at a teller as he fled and a 12-year-old driver who dragged a police officer to his death rather than pull over.

Jones was unarmed. But he weighed 350 pounds and he was behaving erratically. Mayor Charlie Luken has said that Jones' bulk alone amounted to a "deadly weapon" and that the officers were right to react as though they were under potentially lethal attack when Jones lunged at them.
.....

The coroner found superficial bruises, "consistent with nightstick injuries," on the lower part of Jones' body, but said the blows had not caused any damage to internal organs.

.....
The officers involved — five are white and one is African American — have been placed on paid administrative leave.



I think saying policemen made a sport of killing men is rather inflammatory. I am sure it happens, that unarmed men get killed. But policemen get killed quite a bit also. In LA a few weeks ago a routine traffic stop had one policeman killed, another severely injured, as two gangsters came out shooting when policemen approached them.

I recall the boycott calls-it hurt the economy of their own city, their own neighborhoods. Does that make sense, to call for entertainment and tourism boycott of own city, to make sure no money comes its way? According to the article, some activists lump bankrobbers and murderers with real innocents- that impacts their own credibility. And I suspect, if police would abandon some neighborhoods, and not come on calls the crimes rates would skyrocket, and murders in particular increase.

I saw the police cruiser video in this matter. This guy took a running swing at a policeman. When he had several cops on him, he tried to get off the ground, shake them off, and appeared to be going for a nightstick. The news today reported that attorneys for the family think that cops provoked him verbally, and that he was trying to surrender when we kept getting up off the ground. I think this will be a combination of factors. There is another tape, from White Castle which shows more of the incident- I have not yet seen it. I suspect the city will settle the matter, but from what I have seen, he attacked the officers, and kept struggling. Not knowing police procedure, I do not know how to subdue a 350 pound man high on drugs who is actively resisting.

I hope that the anger in the city does not lead to another instance of riots, because last time the communities hurt most by the riots where the very communities that protested. Seems counterproductive.

[Jocko]

Originally posted by T'ai Chi


Yup, all of those are true from what I know from what I've seen on the news. However, there was not only jabs from the nightsticks, but also clubbing.[/B]

Well, they WERE using clubs. I think their deployment was within the manufacturer's recommended specifications.

When you see the full video, could you do me a favor and count the number of hits the man took? How much until it is excessive violence?

I'll tell you what I saw - I guy who kept getting up and grabbing for the officers' weapons. If it took 30 blows to subdue him, then the only logical complaint I can see regarding the cops' behavior is that they weren't hitting hard enough.


How about restrain but not beat? Like all the officers pile up on the guy instead of clubbing him? Even 3 or 4 well trained police officers should be able to subdue a high obese person I'd hope. Or a taser? A spray?

Er, how many of those officers were there for the initial confrontation? It's my impression that only a few were on hand, and this guy was charging like a crazed bull. Besides, tazers or chemical sprays could just as likely cause the health complications that killed the fellow.

Hey, when you're high and many guys are jabbing you in the ribs and clubbing you in the back and elsewhere, see how easy it is to put your hands behind your back and how easy it is to lie still. I'ts human nature to keep your hands up and move as a reflex action in hopes of defending yourself. That doesn't mean he was still fighting though. He just didn't want to be struck with more clubs.

You must be pretty high if a bunch of officers screaming, "get down" leads you to conclude that cooperation means standing and grabbing for their weapons.

The reflex, from what I've seen (and Rodney King is a good example, though he was out of his skull at the time too), is to crawl away, not to regain your feet. But on coke and PCP, I suppose all sorts of whacky things seem like good ideas.

The cops acted appropriately in my opinion, and I wouldn't want my taxpayer dollars wasted on "sensitivity for derranged, belligerent, oversized suspects" training for my local cops. The idiot killed himself, plain and simple.

[T'ai Chi]

Originally posted by Garrette

Tasers are not available to everyone;


I'd hope they'd be available to a police department! Although, I do agree that tasers might not be the best choice in this case. I'm just thinking of ways to prevent someone from being beat around 30 times with clubs, as that seems excessively cruel, even if the person is resisting.

[T'ai Chi]

Originally posted by Jocko

The idiot killed himself, plain and simple.

It looks like the man had some help though. Afterall, it wasn't ruled a suicide but a homicide.

[Badger]

My father was an anaesthetist (anaesthesiologist, gas man), and by hearing him talk with his buddies, I learned that enlarged hearts and medication need to be carefully monitored.

So, with this guy self medicating in such a fashion, it probably was not a question of "if". It was a question of "when".

Too bad cops got involved with his inevitable demise.

[Grammatron]

Originally posted by T'ai Chi


It looks like the man had some help though. Afterall, it wasn't ruled a suicide but a homicide.

Homicide is not murder. The fact that he died hat to do with him putting too much stress on his enlarged heart while high on drugs that make you feel invincible. And from what I see in the video, the police are using their clubs to prevent him from attacking the officers or garbing their weapons.

[Jocko]

Originally posted by T'ai Chi


It looks like the man had some help though. Afterall, it wasn't ruled a suicide but a homicide.

I know it's been ruled a homicide, but when you're piling up risk factors like these:

Coke
PCP
Enlarged heart
Morbid obesity

I feel it's incumbent on you to avoid other risk factors, such as attacking police officers. If this is a homicide (in the general use of the word, not the coroner's parlance), then you could equally blame the engineer of a train when some dolt tries to drive around the lowered gates and turns himself into street pizza.

[Luke T.]

On one of the news channels last night, they showed the entire video, and some still photos taken by the restaurant security system.

Long before the cops showed up, this guy was causing trouble and was obviously extremely intoxicated. So they called the paramedics. The guy then gave the paramedics a hard time, and they called the cops. When the cops showed up, the man lunged at them. No mistake about it, he was on a rampage.

The cops then began clubbing him down to the ground, and he kept trying to get up.

Perhaps there might have been an opportunity to back off, call back up, and just hang around until the guy passed out. We'll never know.

I saw a police video recently of a guy with a samarai sword who was also stone crazy on something. The cops could have just shot him on the spot, but they instead isolated him. Then they tried various methods over a period of 6 or 8 hours, finally pinning him down with a firehose, then rushing him with plastic shields and disarming him.

Took an amazing amount of manpower and hours.

[Jocko]

Originally posted by Luke T.


I saw a police video recently of a guy with a samarai sword who was also stone crazy on something. The cops could have just shot him on the spot, but they instead isolated him. Then they tried various methods over a period of 6 or 8 hours, finally pinning him down with a firehose, then rushing him with plastic shields and disarming him.

Took an amazing amount of manpower and hours.

It may seem like a cold, uncaring cost/benefit analysis, but what crimes went unaddressed while a bunch of cops coddled this psycho? Is the swordsman more deserving of police attention than a potential victim elsewhere?

Shoot the idiot in the leg and be done with it. If he dies of complications, then that's really not my concern. People who stand on the tracks shouldn't complain when they encounter a locomotive.

[Aoidoi]

http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/Midwest/12/04/died.in.custody/index.html

Bring on the lawyers! Nice to see this one giving his medical opinion on the matter.

(I haven't seen the tapes yet, so won't comment further)

[gnome]

Originally posted by Jocko


It may seem like a cold, uncaring cost/benefit analysis, but what crimes went unaddressed while a bunch of cops coddled this psycho? Is the swordsman more deserving of police attention than a potential victim elsewhere?

Shoot the idiot in the leg and be done with it. If he dies of complications, then that's really not my concern. People who stand on the tracks shouldn't complain when they encounter a locomotive.

I have heard before (and perhaps those familiar with police procedure can clarify this) that in most cases, attempting to disable someone with a firearm is not acceptable police procedure. If lethal force is not justified, the firearm is not used.

I'd like to comment here on the role of the media in such situations. If one sees the entire tape, with audio, it's clear that it's a less inflammatory incident than the short, soundless clips played on the evening news. If all the community sees on the news is the part where the cops use their clubs, over and over again... is it any wonder that riots result, if it does not lead to a conviction?

In this case I think it could be argued that incomplete coverage and biased editing of the material directly costs lives. The motive? Profit. What it comes down to is the news media sacrificing lives for money. I don't really know how they can sleep at night.

[Aoidoi]

Originally posted by gnome
What it comes down to is the news media sacrificing lives for money. I don't really know how they can sleep at night. They can afford the drugs to put them to sleep. ;)

I still think the entire tape of the Rodney King incident demonstrates that the cops were not that far over the line (if they were at all), but I didn't see the whole thing until after the trial was already over.

[Ralph]

Originally posted by Badger
My father was an anaesthetist (anaesthesiologist, gas man), and by hearing him talk with his buddies, I learned that enlarged hearts and medication need to be carefully monitored.

So, with this guy self medicating in such a fashion, it probably was not a question of "if". It was a question of "when".

Too bad cops got involved with his inevitable demise.

That's a good point. This story's on just about every forum on the internet and everybody's saying the same thing.......why couldn't they just use a non-lethal method to subdue this guy?

The Tasers and drugs (tranquilizer darts) are the usual suggestions.

Think about what's involved though when you head down this path.

On TV we see the nice game biologist calmly shooting a polar bear which quickly goes to sleep, get's tagged, and groggily gets back up in few minutes.

What you don't see is the guy in the background with a rifle ready to shoot the bear dead in case he was underdosed and just gets pissed off instead of unconcious.

They also don't show you that sometimes the bear....just doesn't wake up because the dose was too big.

Anesthesiologist spend 3-4 years AFTER 4 years of med school learning how to render people unconcious with drugs. It's not easy. Despite all that training, even in a controlled hospital environment----people still die. Anesthesiologists pay higher ins. premiums than any other medical specialty for good reason.

This is what the Russians tried when terrorists took over the theater in Moscow.....Many deaths due to drug ODs.....and they were criticized in the world community for doing this.

You can't just hand a cop a dart gun and say"just use this instead of the Glock".....

You can't expect them to rely on something like this in acute situations where they only have seconds to act.

How much training will be needed? Who will get it? Who'll pay for it? You have police depts. laying off people. They may want these things but will the money be there?

How's the cop going to feel about walking around with a club, pepper spray, a taser, a handgun, and a tranquilizer dart gun.

When you're life's in danger...there's a lot to be said for the K.I.S.S. principle. Hang 5-6 weapons off his belt and that split second hesitation or a mistake reaching for the wrong weapon could cost him his life.

Given his medical condition, the fact that cocaine can induce heart arrythmias, pcp effects pulse & BP, and the embalming fluid produces metabolic acidosis...........I doubt if this guy would've survived being tasered.

Then you'd read......."The police who SHOULD have been able to conclude from the mans appearance that he had a heart condition.....opted to stun him with a taser......knowing full well this would probably result in the man's death."


I think they showed incredible restraint in not shooting him.
If the guy had been a 350 lb "redneck cracker"......they could have. It wouldn't have made page 3 of the Bugtussle Tribune, never mind the evening news........

[Jocko]

Originally posted by gnome


I have heard before (and perhaps those familiar with police procedure can clarify this) that in most cases, attempting to disable someone with a firearm is not acceptable police procedure. If lethal force is not justified, the firearm is not used.

Fine, I know a gun is ostensibly for killing. Perhaps we ought to revisit what justifies lethal force... for instance, a derranged man with a samurai sword seems to qualify.

I merely suggested aiming to maim as a favor to the psycho in question. You know, giving him a chance at surviving his own incident. Not that he would deserve that chance, but that's just the kind of caring person I am. I'm a real teddy bear when it comes to expending undue resources on coddling people who ought to be shipped off to an island somewhere.

I'd like to comment here on the role of the media in such situations. If one sees the entire tape, with audio, it's clear that it's a less inflammatory incident than the short, soundless clips played on the evening news. If all the community sees on the news is the part where the cops use their clubs, over and over again... is it any wonder that riots result, if it does not lead to a conviction?

I think anyone who concludes the incident was a racially motivead murder, audio or not, is not likely to be swayed by little things such as facts. And by those I mean Louis Farrakhan, Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton... you know, people who make a business out of pretneding to care about the people they exploit.

In this case I think it could be argued that incomplete coverage and biased editing of the material directly costs lives. The motive? Profit. What it comes down to is the news media sacrificing lives for money. I don't really know how they can sleep at night.

That's pure speculation. There have been no riots and the tapes have been circulating for days now, with minimal outcry. Could it be that the cops were so obviously justified that even the divisive fearmongers who prey on these things must be silent?

[Jocko]

Originally posted by Ralph


That's a good point. This story's on just about every forum on the internet and everybody's saying the same thing.......why couldn't they just use a non-lethal method to subdue this guy?



Your points are well taken, but the premise is flawed - because they DID use non-lethal force. That fat bastid was swinging and struggling to his feet until the very end.

Don't blame the cops. Blame his drug-exacerbated fatass state.

[T'ai Chi]

I am starting to see peoples' points of views that the police were justified in doing what they did. However, in my heart it I know that there must be a better way out there. Maybe I should invent a product that is not only non-lethal, but could stop a huge angry high person?

[Grammatron]

Originally posted by T'ai Chi
I am starting to see peoples' points of views that the police were justified in doing what they did. However, in my heart it I know that there must be a better way out there. Maybe I should invent a product that is not only non-lethal, but could stop a huge angry high person?

Go for it man. Not only will you make lots of money but it has a potential to save lifes.

[Jocko]

Originally posted by T'ai Chi
I am starting to see peoples' points of views that the police were justified in doing what they did. However, in my heart it I know that there must be a better way out there. Maybe I should invent a product that is not only non-lethal, but could stop a huge angry high person?

How about fewer huge angry high people?

Death is tragic, yes. But this particlar man's death is less tragic than others, for the simple fact that his own conduct - that night, and probably for many years of washing down the KFC with PCP - caused his death. Blaming the cops is like blaming the day of the week it happened on.

[Badger]

That samurai sword guy.....they tear gassed, and shot with those riot guns that shoot beanbags.

He shrugged both off (they commented on his dicipline to be able to withstand these methods)

There is also investigation being done wrt other methods of non-lethal restraint such as nets, sticky stuff, etc.

There are lots of non-lethal ways to stop a huge, angry person, but most of them take time. This guy lunged at cops when they showed up. They didn't seem to have the luxury of time.

It's a shame he died, but from the slant I get from the coroners report, he was well on his way before the cops showed up. For all we know, he could have just as easily suffered heart failure fleeing from those same cops, if that was what he'd chosen to do at the time instead.

[Luke T.]

Originally posted by Jocko
There have been no riots and the tapes have been circulating for days now, with minimal outcry. Could it be that the cops were so obviously justified that even the divisive fearmongers who prey on these things must be silent?

The Rodney King riots didn't happen until after the verdict in the first trial that cleared the cops.

[Luke T.]

The full film of the 350 pound guy shows him lunging at one of the cops and grabbing him. So they had to defend themselves.

I suppose they could have knocked him down once and then run circles around him. I mean, how hard is it to outmaneuver a fat guy? :D

We can second guess all day long. Because we have all day.

[Luke T.]

Cincinnati Tops List of Police Killings of Blacks (http://www.commondreams.org/headlines01/0428-04.htm)


The city's 15 deaths since 1995, all black men and three unarmed, rivals Columbus' statistics, a city twice as large as Cincinnati.

Not one dead white guy in all that time.

Yikes.

[Jocko]

Originally posted by Luke T.


The Rodney King riots didn't happen until after the verdict in the first trial that cleared the cops.

In LA, sure. I assure you the more militant blacks in Alabama were in action within 24 hours. I was there. An impromptu march turned into a small riot, with burning dumpsters and everything.

[Ed]

Originally posted by Luke T.
Cincinnati Tops List of Police Killings of Blacks (http://www.commondreams.org/headlines01/0428-04.htm)



Not one dead white guy in all that time.

Yikes.

It's bad but not the entire story. I recall reading that of the cops killed recently in Cinn. somethig like 7/8 were killed by blacks. It seems to have gotten the cops a bit edgy.

As far as the "murdered" blacks go, I found this that jibes with what I recall from the last riots.

The roster of Cincinnati’s supposed "martyrs" hardly validates the contention that the city’s black population is under siege by "rogue cops":

• The list begins with Harvey Price, a 34-year-old who killed a 15-year-old with an ax and then engaged in a four-hour stand-off with police in February 1995. He was shot as he charged police officers with a knife.

• Darryll C. Price, who was killed during a struggle with police in April 1996, was found jumping on the hood of a car and yelling that he was going to "shoot someone." Price, who had been seen taking cocaine before the incident, died from a condition called "agitated delirium with restraint" — a sudden death syndrome often seen among mentally ill drug abusers — after being tackled and shackled by police, according to an autopsy.

• Daniel Williams, a convicted felon who was killed in February 1998, apparently did not fear the police: He flagged down a police cruiser driven by 23-year-old Officer Kathleen Conway, punched her in the face, fired four shots from a .357 Magnum into her legs and abdomen, and commandeered her car. Conway, although injured, shot Williams twice in the head with her service revolver.

• Jermaine Lowe, who was killed in June 1998, was a convicted felon who had violated his parole guidelines and was being sought in connection with an armed robbery. He fired first on two police officers who returned fire, killing him.

• Randy Black was shot by police in July 1998 after robbing the Cinco Credit Union. He was shot twice in the abdomen while wielding a two-by-four bristling with rusted nails.

• James King’s August 1999 shooting also followed an attempted robbery: He fired a gunshot after handing a teller a note threatening to take hostages and kill them if he didn’t get his cash. After a high-speed chase he was cornered by police. He jumped from his car with his gun in his hand — with the predictable consequences.

• Carey Tompkins, who had threatened his girlfriend with a 9mm handgun, died from a gunshot as he struggled with an officer over control of the gun.

• Alfred Pope, whose rap sheet displayed 18 felony charges and five felony convictions, was shot in March 2000 after robbing and pistol-whipping three people.

• Twelve-year-old Courtney Mathis snuck behind the wheel of a relative’s car and took it for a joy ride in September of last year. When Mathis stopped at a convenience store, Officer Kevin Crayon asked for his license and registration. Mathis put the car into reverse, prompting Crayon to grab for the keys. Mathis took off, dragging the officer along. After being dragged for 800 feet, Crayon managed to fire a shot into the youngster’s chest, mortally wounding him. Officer Crayon died when his head struck the exhaust pipe of another automobile. The families of Courtney Mathis and Officer Crayon "came together after the incident and urged forgiveness," notes the Enquirer — a commendable and heroic gesture that was ignored by the city’s radical agitators.

• Jeffrey Irons, a homeless man, was caught in the act of shoplifting. Rather than surrender, he seized a firearm and shot one officer before being shot himself in November of last year.

• Adam Wheeler, who was wanted on three felony warrants, screamed, "You want a war? You got a war" as he fired six shots at officers who had come to his apartment to investigate a drug complaint. Wheeler died and Officer Craig Gregoire was wounded in the January 2001 shootout.

Lost the source, it was part of a longer thing.

[bug_girl]

Question--was the methanol from actual embalming fluid, or was it from some moonshine/bad booze?

Methanol is really neurotoxic. depending on the amount, and interactions with PCP, he might have been having some pretty freaky visual hallucinations.

My bet is, if they had backed off and waited, he would have dropped dead on his own.

I think the cops freaked and wacked him once too many; but i know that i would probably have done the same if i had a giant guy coming for me. I am glad i don't have to be on a jury for this one.

[Luke T.]

Originally posted by Ed


It's bad but not the entire story. I recall reading that of the cops killed recently in Cinn. somethig like 7/8 were killed by blacks. It seems to have gotten the cops a bit edgy.

As far as the "murdered" blacks go, I found this that jibes with what I recall from the last riots.

...snip...

Lost the source, it was part of a longer thing.

Appreciate that, Ed. But I think you and I both know that the sum total of the deaths can be twisted to the advantage of the latest demagogue. Arouse passions.

That is why I said "Yikes."

This current death raises doubts as to its necessity. It is the match needed to light the fire under the other deaths.

[T'ai Chi]

I encourage everyone to read the very short story of Terry Dobson, an aikido practicioner, who had an interesting encounter in a bus with a violent drunk while in Japan a while ago, and how the situation was resolved.

The theme of the story might apply to other real life situations.

Story here (http://unofficial.ki-society.org/another.html)

[Grammatron]

Originally posted by T'ai Chi
I encourage everyone to read the very short story of Terry Dobson, an aikido practicioner, who had an interesting encounter in a bus with a violent drunk while in Japan a while ago, and how the situation was resolved.

The theme of the story might apply to other real life situations.

Story here (http://unofficial.ki-society.org/another.html)

Although it's a nice story, this will not work on anyone who was on PCP and the kind of other drugs the man was on. Plus, Cops first tried to calm him down and talk to him but we all know how it ended.

[Kevin_Lowe]

Originally posted by Jocko
Shoot the idiot in the leg and be done with it.

Contrary to what Hollywood tells us, guns are not magic wands and a bullet in the leg does not magically incapacitate someone. Nor is it guaranteed to be an injury you survive.

[Garrette]

Nor is it so easy to do as many believe. Try hitting the leg of a man-shaped target from 15 yards with a pistol.

Then try it with the leg moving.

Then try it after you're pumped with adrenaline.

Then try it after you've scuffled for two minutes.

Then try it with your friends moving in and out of the field of fire.

Then try it with your target charging you.

[Ed]

Originally posted by T'ai Chi
I am starting to see peoples' points of views that the police were justified in doing what they did. However, in my heart it I know that there must be a better way out there. Maybe I should invent a product that is not only non-lethal, but could stop a huge angry high person?

Maybe. Unfortunately, when an adult starts flailing about bad things can happen, with or without the cops.

It seems to me anything that is invasive (Tasers or drugs) by their nature have the potential to kill under the right circumstances.

Further, I believe that Cops do not have the option to withdraw if they, in their judgement, witness a threat to public safety.

It just is apparent that regardless of the actions taken by the police, they are somehow at fault for any bad consequences in the minds of some people.

Tell me, Tai, what is the personal responsibility of the deceased in this matter?

[Kodiak]

Originally posted by Ed
It seems to me anything that is invasive (Tasers or drugs) by their nature have the potential to kill under the right circumstances.

Agreed.

How would a Taser affect someone with a pacemaker, or what would happen to a person who was allergic to sedatives if they were hit with a "trank" dart?

[Graham]

Originally posted by Kodiak


Agreed.

How would a Taser affect someone with a pacemaker, or what would happen to a person who was allergic to sedatives if they were hit with a "trank" dart?

. . . and, as I think someone already mentioned, you have to tailor the dosage in a tranquiliser dart to the body weight of the target and possibly other factors too.

The consequences of incorrect dosage could be very serious.

I dont know how much margin or error you have but, even assuming the policemen had the proper training, in a situation like this would they have had time make an estimate of the target's body weight, to do the math, measure out the dose, load the weapon and fire?

I don't think so.

Graham

[Tmy]

THeres so much cop groupie spin on this story. Im not even saying they were wrong but some people go to such great lengths to defend the cops (in any case).

Like in this case.

-"PCP/Coke Invincible man": From what I heard he had coke and pcp in his system. That does not = insane super strong all hopped up on drugs. If I did coke last night, its still in my system but Im not high on coke right now. Plus while PCP MAY freak you out it does not in fact give you superpowers, like the press constantly implies.

-"350lb man". Yeah hes heavy, but hes no 6'8 NFL Offensive Lineman who benchs 500lbs. I think the guy is more like 5'8 or something. Im not sure cause that fact isnt even in the link. Hes fat and out of shape, but by thowing in "350lbs" all the time it implies the police were up against an unstopple man mountain.


-"Its not homicide, he died because of drugs and bad health". People act as if the police never showed up he would've dropped dead in that parking lot of a heart attack. Yeah, if I hold your haed underwater its not a "homicide", you drowned.

[Skeptical Greg]

Originally posted by T'ai Chi
I am starting to see peoples' points of views that the police were justified in doing what they did. However, in my heart it I know that there must be a better way out there. Maybe I should invent a product that is not only non-lethal, but could stop a huge angry high person?
A net perhaps?

[Ed]

Originally posted by Tmy
THeres so much cop groupie spin on this story. Im not even saying they were wrong but some people go to such great lengths to defend the cops (in any case).

Like in this case.

-"PCP/Coke Invincible man": From what I heard he had coke and pcp in his system. That does not = insane super strong all hopped up on drugs. If I did coke last night, its still in my system but Im not high on coke right now. Plus while PCP MAY freak you out it does not in fact give you superpowers, like the press constantly implies.

I am not sure what this means. I do recall that the switch from .38's to 9mm and bigger cartriges was motivated to some extent by the ability of a PCP addled bad guy to do damage after taking a few rounds. You might recall that the .45 was adoped by the US Army after it was found that .38's did not stop drug addeled Phillipinos. If the coke is in your system, it is having some sort of effect. To deny that is simply druggie self justification. Also, I have no idea to what extent, if any, PCP potentiates Coke. While I have never taken PCP I have seen animals on it. Agressive and wackey are terms that do come to mind

-"350lb man". Yeah hes heavy, but hes no 6'8 NFL Offensive Lineman who benchs 500lbs. I think the guy is more like 5'8 or something. Im not sure cause that fact isnt even in the link. Hes fat and out of shape, but by thowing in "350lbs" all the time it implies the police were up against an unstopple man mountain.

A 350 lb man moving at 5 mph exerts an instantanious force of about 120,000 foot pounds (5mph=400 fps*350 roufghly, is that right?) You stop him

-"Its not homicide, he died because of drugs and bad health". People act as if the police never showed up he would've dropped dead in that parking lot of a heart attack. Yeah, if I hold your haed underwater its not a "homicide", you drowned.

Bad analogy. A better one would be that you try to swim the channel, get exhausted and drown.

[Wolrab]

My take on this thread isn't cop cheerleaders, it's reasoned opinions of whatever facts are out there.
'Activists' are quick to point out Cinci's police record regarding blacks, yet fail to mention most (if not all) of the recent shootings were justified by almost any standard.

What are the cops supposed to do? Die?

[Luke T.]

Originally posted by T'ai Chi
I encourage everyone to read the very short story of Terry Dobson, an aikido practicioner, who had an interesting encounter in a bus with a violent drunk while in Japan a while ago, and how the situation was resolved.

The theme of the story might apply to other real life situations.

Story here (http://unofficial.ki-society.org/another.html)

I used that tactic many times in the Navy while on duty in various liberty ports overseas. After being a sea for a few weeks, sailors and Marines get pretty wasted at the first port we hit.

The way things are set up is that some ports can't handle a large ship, so you moor out in the harbor and take liberty boats to shore. These are basically local water taxis.

It is a policy not to let someone who is too drunk or too dangerous onto these small craft. So tents are usually set up with Shore Patrol and medics and stretchers and pots of coffee.

Some sailors and Marines show up from a night of drinking pretty bellicose. Whatya mean I can't get in the friggin' boat? Who's gonna stop me? Just let me get back to my rack! And so on.

Of all the times I had to deal with this kind of crap, only once did I actually have to wrestle a man to the ground and hold him down until he passed out.

Correction, two times. The second time was inside a moving van. Very hairy situation.

Most of the time, you just have to get the guy talking. Half the time, they start crying. Then it's time to lay down on the stretcher over here, buddy, and sleep it off.

[Tmy]

What really bugs me about this they were called because he commited some crime. They came as backup forthe EMT's who were called when the guy collapsed or sumthin. (what happend to the EMT's by the way?)

Forget about the drugs for a second. What if he was just a mentally ill person? They can be quite aggitated and non responsive to the police. Where supposed to help these people. Not beat the crap out of them.

[Tmy]

Ed,

Screw the physics lesson. Who would you rather fight? A 300lb Shaquille Oneil, or a 350 lb Dom Dellousie???? Dom is heavier, but I m sure I can take him. Shaq on the other hand.

Hey, together the cops outwieghed the guy. THey couldve just sat on him.!!!

[Leif Roar]

Originally posted by Tmy
Ed,

Screw the physics lesson. Who would you rather fight? A 300lb Shaquille Oneil, or a 350 lb Dom Dellousie????

More to the point, would you rather fight a bantan weight professional boxer, a 200 pound manual laborer or a 350 pound untrained man? Body weight do count for a lot in a brawl, especially when you have to try to subdue a person.

I haven't seen the video of the incident, nor have I read the coroner's report - but from the descriptions of the incident here in this thread it seems to me that the police's actions probably was correct. You obviously disagree, so might I ask what you believe the police should have done in the situation (assuming the facts of it is as given in the thread)?

[Jon_in_london]

Originally posted by Tmy
Hey, together the cops outwieghed the guy. THey couldve just sat on him.!!!

Once about 6 of them were there, thats exactly what they did.

Have you watched the vid?

[Ed]

Originally posted by Tmy
Ed,

Screw the physics lesson. Who would you rather fight? A 300lb Shaquille Oneil, or a 350 lb Dom Dellousie???? Dom is heavier, but I m sure I can take him. Shaq on the other hand.

Hey, together the cops outwieghed the guy. THey couldve just sat on him.!!!

That has absolutely nothing to do with what I wrote.

[Graham]

Have you seen the video Tmy?

Could you have stopped that guy without hurting him?

You and one of your mates?

Seriously, whatever his training, a 350 pound man is a force to be reckoned with, especially if he's REALLY riled up (which he certainly appears to be in the video) and expecially if he's got PCP in his system (in almost any quantity).

At the start of the movie, he seems to be moving pretty fast for such a big guy. He may not have been a bodybuilder or whatever but he was no slouch.

Graham

[Jon_in_london]

Originally posted by Tmy
What really bugs me about this they were called because he commited some crime. They came as backup forthe EMT's who were called when the guy collapsed or sumthin. (what happend to the EMT's by the way?)

Forget about the drugs for a second. What if he was just a mentally ill person? They can be quite aggitated and non responsive to the police. Where supposed to help these people. Not beat the crap out of them.

The shop owner called the EMTs because a big wasted fat guy was lying on the grass screaming "19"

The EMTs called the cops because the guy was becoming unmanagably aggressive.

If any mentally ill person behaved like that then he would probably qualify as "criminally insane" and would have to be removed from society. In any case, you would still need to subdue and arrest him.

[Tmy]

Originally posted by Leif Roar


More to the point, would you rather fight a bantan weight professional boxer, a 200 pound manual laborer or a 350 pound untrained man? Body weight do count for a lot in a brawl, especially when you have to try to subdue a person.

I haven't seen the video of the incident, nor have I read the coroner's report - but from the descriptions of the incident here in this thread it seems to me that the police's actions probably was correct. You obviously disagree, so might I ask what you believe the police should have done in the situation (assuming the facts of it is as given in the thread)?

I never said I thought their actions were incorrect. I dont believe the police acted with malice or racism. There have been other police tapes that I thought were much worse and on the side of brutality. I remember the one last year where this teen was slammed onto a car and punched in the head.

My point was more about the spin in the situation. Especially how his weight is being misused.

You havent seen the tape. When you first heard 350lb man what was your mental image of the incident.

[Ed]

Originally posted by Tmy



You havent seen the tape. When you first heard 350lb man what was your mental image of the incident.

A fat blob.

[Graham]

Originally posted by Ed


A fat blob.

Ditto. So what Tmy? Ever go up against someone that size?

If anyone's being predjudiced here it you, IMO. You're assuming that just because he was 350 lbs and not a professional athlete he wasn't a threat to the policemen and they should have treated him like a mentally handicapped person.

Graham

[Luke T.]

What annoys me is that the video they are showing over and over on TV now is just the beating part. If they started the clip just one second earlier, you would see the fat guy attack the cop on the viewer's right first. I would say the media is being unconscionable.

The beating lasts a few seconds. Then more cops show up and pin the guy down.

[Leif Roar]

Originally posted by Tmy

You havent seen the tape. When you first heard 350lb man what was your mental image of the incident.

I read the story linked to in the start of this thread, which stated that the man was obese and had an enlarged heart. My mental image was thus of a very over-weight man, not of some massive, muscular ogre who could "eat bullets and s**t lead."

[Jocko]

Originally posted by Graham


Ditto. So what Tmy? Ever go up against someone that size?

If anyone's being predjudiced here it you, IMO. You're assuming that just because he was 350 lbs and not a professional athlete he wasn't a threat to the policemen and they should have treated him like a mentally handicapped person.

Graham

You got that right, Graham. Righter than you know.

So come on, Timmy... are you going to tell them or am I? It's only fair, after all.

[Graham]

Originally posted by Jocko


You got that right, Graham. Righter than you know.

So come on, Timmy... are you going to tell them or am I? It's only fair, after all.

Go on then, if I hold my breath much longer waiting for your revelation I'll pass out.

Graham

[Jon_in_london]

Before any more of you 'skeptics' go around posting your thoughts without having seen the video:

http://edition.cnn.com/2003/US/Midwest/12/01/beating.videotape/

Watch first. Then post.

edit: apologies, you need some subscription to watch the vid from that link. Ill google some more, or maybe you should do your own googling you lazy sod.

Well, theres some stuff here but not the entire tape:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/12/03/national/main586625.shtml

[Luke T.]

Awesome video here (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,104563,00.html). With sound!

One hell of a lunging attack against the cops, then they defend themselves.

You can hear the cop saying over and over and over, "PUT YOUR HANDS BEHIND YOUR BACK."

You can also hear the black man say something about "white boys" just before he attacks.

[Graham]

Originally posted by Jon_in_london
Before any more of you 'skeptics' go around posting your thoughts without having seen the video:

http://edition.cnn.com/2003/US/Midwest/12/01/beating.videotape/

Watch first. Then post.

edit: apologies, you need some subscription to watch the vid from that link. Ill google some more, or maybe you should do your own googling you lazy sod.

Well, theres some stuff here but not the entire tape:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/12/03/national/main586625.shtml

There was alink to the video in the OP or shortly after, I think.

[Stimpson J. Cat]

Just a couple of things to think about:

1) Subduing somebody who is trying to hurt you, without hurting them, and without allowing them to hurt you, is extremely difficult, even for highly trained martial artists. Police are not generally highly trained martial artists.

2) The most common methods for such a subdual simply do not work on people who are high on drugs like PCP, or to a lesser extent, cocaine. Consider the two most common methods:

Pain submission techniques: This involves things like nerve strikes and certain types of pinning maneuvers. It also includes most "stunning" weapons, like bean bag rounds and pepper spray. These don't work when the target is on drugs which not only act as pain killers to begin with, but also boost the person's natural adrenalin. In many cases, adrenalin alone is enough to overcome these types of subdual techniques, especially if the person has a high pain threshold.

Joint Locks: The primary effectiveness of joint locks as a subdual technique comes from pain. The advantage over techniques which rely solely on pain is that if the person resists, you break something. Unfortunately, if the person is not feeling pain, or as is the case with some drugs, feels it but does not react normally to it, then in many cases the break will not immediately incapacitate them. It takes a pretty severe break to render a limb useless. Usually the pain of a minor break is so bad that any attempt to use the limb will cause the person to pass out. But this may not be the case for somebody who is high.

Add to this the fact that getting any non-lethal hand to hand techniques to work in an actual fight, is extremely difficult, and the idea that those police could have subdued that man without hurting him, is simply not realistic.

Which gives another point to consider. Somebody commented on the number of times they struck that man, saying that it was excessive. If those cops had wanted to injure or kill him, they would not have needed to hit him very many times at all. A few shots to the head, and he would have been out cold or dead. Instead they were striking him in the arms and shoulders. They were specifically trying to subdue him without seriously injuring him. Unfortunately, when somebody is strung out on PCP, that is very difficult. Pain doesn't have much effect, so their blows did not accomplish very much.

As for those who said they should have tasered him, if they had done that, he probably would have dropped dead on the spot. Getting hit by a taser is far more of a shock to the heart than being beaten about the arms and shoulders with sticks.


Dr. Stupid

[jj]

I'm afraid, as appalling as the whole affair looks, that I can't say that the police were way out of line, except perhaps in not having a lot of backup right away, which can be hard in its own way.

I saw one shot of the start, where the guy more or less appears to toss one of the cops like a rag doll.

I doubt the guy was mentally competent, but like some others have pointed out, that only makes the problem harder.

I'm not sure in this one. It doesn't have the mark of a Rodney King episode, where the pictures show him laying on the ground not resisting. The alternative to the cops would be to use a firearm, and that would probably expose them to a whole variety of other problems, even if they could shoot to incapacitate, which is a very, *very* iffy idea to begin with.

This guy was resisting all the way.

I haven't actually seen anyone mention the cause of death. Was it from the beating itself?

[Tmy]

Originally posted by Jocko


You got that right, Graham. Righter than you know.

So come on, Timmy... are you going to tell them or am I? It's only fair, after all.

Do your worst Jerko!

LET me get this out. I dont blame the police. They were within their rights to do what they had too. They didnt mean to kill the guy, they didnt do it cause he was black, they are not satanists, they are not commies, they are not yankee fans.

Im just trying to say that just like the Jesse Jackson types who run to an incident to cry racism, there are the super pro-cop side.
It dosesnt matter what a cop does, or what a video shows, they will never blame the police. The closest youll get is some copout about the police being under stress an these things happen. (get it "cop"out!!!)

And another thing! Ive had enough of this PCP bashing! PCP's have been getting a bad rap.

[Luke T.]

Originally posted by Stimpson J. Cat
Pain submission techniques: This involves things like nerve strikes and certain types of pinning maneuvers. It also includes most "stunning" weapons, like bean bag rounds and pepper spray. These don't work when the target is on drugs which not only act as pain killers to begin with, but also boost the person's natural adrenalin. In many cases, adrenalin alone is enough to overcome these types of subdual techniques, especially if the person has a high pain threshold.

Joint Locks: The primary effectiveness of joint locks as a subdual technique comes from pain. The advantage over techniques which rely solely on pain is that if the person resists, you break something. Unfortunately, if the person is not feeling pain, or as is the case with some drugs, feels it but does not react normally to it, then in many cases the break will not immediately incapacitate them. It takes a pretty severe break to render a limb useless. Usually the pain of a minor break is so bad that any attempt to use the limb will cause the person to pass out. But this may not be the case for somebody who is high.

Add to this the fact that getting any non-lethal hand to hand techniques to work in an actual fight, is extremely difficult, and the idea that those police could have subdued that man without hurting him, is simply not realistic.



I can speak from first-hand experience on this. I mentioned earlier about having to subdue a drunken sailor in a moving van.

He was so drunk, he had stupidly jumped into a van full of Chief Petty Officers as we were leaving the base enlisted club, and then demanded a ride. We found him amusing, and let him ride with us rather than fight.

I was stone sober. Just want to make that clear.

At first, the idiot was just being verbally abusive. No problem. We let it ride. Then he started insulting his chain of command. That's a regulation violation, but it could wait til later. Then he decided to directly insult a couple of Master Chief Petty Officers in the van. Real stupid. But again, the paperwork could wait.

Then he decided he was going to jump out of the van at 45 mph, and opened the door. I caught him in mid-leap and pulled him back in.

He put up a heck of a fight. No one came to my aid, and no one need to. I had him pretty good. But let me tell you, I used every non-lethal trick in the book I knew, including some that Stimpy mentioned. To no avail. I was amazed the guy was still struggling. At one point, he bit me. Not just a bite, but a sort of rapid, wild series of bites like a demon.

So I used one last trick I knew as a last resort which I knew could result in serious harm. At that point, he screamed like a woman and completely relaxed. I was then able to get him into a joint lock that he would not be able to escape from and kept him there until we got back to the ship.

It was amazing what amount of pain and injury a drunk could sustain without flinching.

[Grammatron]

Originally posted by Luke T.


I can speak from first-hand experience on this. I mentioned earlier about having to subdue a drunken sailor in a moving van.

He was so drunk, he had stupidly jumped into a van full of Chief Petty Officers as we were leaving the base enlisted club, and then demanded a ride. We found him amusing, and let him ride with us rather than fight.

I was stone sober. Just want to make that clear.

At first, the idiot was just being verbally abusive. No problem. We let it ride. Then he started insulting his chain of command. That's a regulation violation, but it could wait til later. Then he decided to directly insult a couple of Master Chief Petty Officers in the van. Real stupid. But again, the paperwork could wait.

Then he decided he was going to jump out of the van at 45 mph, and opened the door. I caught him in mid-leap and pulled him back in.

He put up a heck of a fight. No one came to my aid, and no one need to. I had him pretty good. But let me tell you, I used every non-lethal trick in the book I knew, including some that Stimpy mentioned. To no avail. I was amazed the guy was still struggling. At one point, he bit me. Not just a bite, but a sort of rapid, wild series of bites like a demon.

So I used one last trick I knew as a last resort which I knew could result in serious harm. At that point, he screamed like a woman and completely relaxed. I was then able to get him into a joint lock that he would not be able to escape from and kept him there until we got back to the ship.

It was amazing what amount of pain and injury a drunk could sustain without flinching.

Just out of curiosity, what kind of punishment did that guy receive, if any?

[Luke T.]

Originally posted by jj
I'm afraid, as appalling as the whole affair looks, that I can't say that the police were way out of line, except perhaps in not having a lot of backup right away, which can be hard in its own way.

I saw one shot of the start, where the guy more or less appears to toss one of the cops like a rag doll.



If you watch the video I linked, the big guy clocks the cop around the neck pretty hard. That had to hurt.

Just before the guy attacks the cops, you can hear the cop gently trying to get him to back up. His voice is calm and reasonable. Then all hell breaks loose.

Something about "white boys" and "my momma told me..."

[Jocko]

Originally posted by Graham


Go on then, if I hold my breath much longer waiting for your revelation I'll pass out.

Graham

I happen to know for a fact that Timmy IS a 350 pound black man. I can't say whether he's been beaten by police, but if he has, I'm sure it was for a good reason. God knows I've wanted to thrash him a few times.

[jj]

Originally posted by Luke T.


If you watch the video I linked, the big guy clocks the cop around the neck pretty hard. That had to hurt.

Dunno, the one I saw had the cop sorta flying through the air.

Just before the guy attacks the cops, you can hear the cop gently trying to get him to back up. His voice is calm and reasonable. Then all hell breaks loose.

Something about "white boys" and "my momma told me..."

Like I said, I'm not entirely sure yet, but I can imagine that the cops had any other real alternative, until they could collect enough people to put one on every limb and take him down.

I've had to deal with violent-type drunks, they're bad enough. Drunk plus drugs plus (??methanol??), well, yech, no thanks.

[Tmy]

Originally posted by Jocko


I happen to know for a fact that Timmy IS a 350 pound black man. I can't say whether he's been beaten by police, but if he has, I'm sure it was for a good reason. God knows I've wanted to thrash him a few times.

Liar! Im not fat Im big boned! AND you forgot to mention my enlarged heart......AND coke habit! Dont worry Jacko, Ill catch up to you someday, and all the Cincy PD wont save you!:p

[Tmy]

Originally posted by Luke T.


If you watch the video I linked, the big guy clocks the cop around the neck pretty hard. That had to hurt.

These cops need to be re-trained. Might I suggest the PEDRO MARTINEZ SCHOOL FOR TOSSING FAT GUYS LIKE RON ZIMMER ON TO THE GROUND. Pedro is a little guy too, Zimmer bit the dust like the Hindenburg.

[Jocko]

Originally posted by Tmy


Dont worry Jacko, Ill catch up to you someday...

Not unless I'm in a wheelchair, Prefontaine. :D

[Kevin_Lowe]

Originally posted by Stimpson J. Cat
2) The most common methods for such a subdual simply do not work on people who are high on drugs like PCP, or to a lesser extent, cocaine. Consider the two most common methods:

A third method, blood chokes, work just fine. However police are not allowed to use them, because if you leave them on too long they are fatal. There were a couple of fatalities from police use of blood chokes, I vaguely recollect, and so they were removed from the police arsenal. Police also tended to use them on anyone who resisted, because they were so damn effective, rather than relying on fiddlier pain compliance methods for suspects who were not high on drugs.

On the other hand, competently applied they are relatively safe. People get choked out in no-holds-barred competition and are none the worse for wear.

I still think that if the police were trained appropriately that these techniques could be used safely in cases such as these. I'd rather be choked out than beaten senseless myself, and conceivably the deceased might even have lived if he had been rendered unconscious quickly rather than being allowed to struggle.

[Ed]

Originally posted by Kevin_Lowe


I'd rather be choked out than beaten senseless myself

Well, hello sailor.:D

[Stimpson J. Cat]

Kevin,

A third method, blood chokes, work just fine.

I am sure that a blood choke would work just fine, if you managed to get the person into the choke hold, and then managed to maintain the choke hold when Mr. 350lbs-of-pissed-off-meat decides that the best way to get you off of him is to simply fall on you.

Grappling techniques require considerable training to be effective in a real fight. They are especially difficult to make work when your opponent is bigger and stronger than you are.

I still think that if the police were trained appropriately that these techniques could be used safely in cases such as these.

I guess that depends on what you would consider appropriate police training. If we gave every police officer something like 5 years of hand-to-hand combat training, complete with full-contact sparring, maybe. But as it is, the hand-to-hand combat portion of police training primarily consists of things like:

How to properly strike somebody with your stick.

How to defend against a knife attach long enough to draw your gun and fire.

How to subdue somebody who you already have ahold of, who is trying to get away or resist being cuffed.

Like I said, police officers are not generally what I would consider even competent fighters. Those who are competent fighters are typically either ex-military (which many cops are), or people who have studied martial arts on their own.

If, as a society, we want a police force that can actually be expected to be able to subdue extremely violent, possibly drugged up people, without injuring them, then we not only need to invest a lot more time and money on their training, but we would also need to pay them much higher salaries, both to keep such highly skilled individuals from going elsewhere for employment, and to compensate for the much higher risk involved in making the use of such techniques (as opposed to the far more safe and effective technique of beating them with your stick), a job requirement.


Dr. Stupid

[Mr. Skinny]

Originally posted by Stimpson J. Cat
(snip)

I guess that depends on what you would consider appropriate police training. If we gave every police officer something like 5 years of hand-to-hand combat training, complete with full-contact sparring, maybe. But as it is, the hand-to-hand combat portion of police training primarily consists of things like:

How to properly strike somebody with your stick.

How to defend against a knife attach long enough to draw your gun and fire.

How to subdue somebody who you already have ahold of, who is trying to get away or resist being cuffed.

Like I said, police officers are not generally what I would consider even competent fighters. Those who are competent fighters are typically either ex-military (which many cops are), or people who have studied martial arts on their own.

If, as a society, we want a police force that can actually be expected to be able to subdue extremely violent, possibly drugged up people, without injuring them, then we not only need to invest a lot more time and money on their training, but we would also need to pay them much higher salaries, both to keep such highly skilled individuals from going elsewhere for employment, and to compensate for the much higher risk involved in making the use of such techniques (as opposed to the far more safe and effective technique of beating them with your stick), a job requirement.


DM [/B]
Stimpy, you make an excellent point here.

When I graduated from the Ohio Peace Officers Training Academy, I was given about 4 hours of training in the use of the PR-24 baton, and ZERO hours of other self defense instruction.

If I had my skinny @ss involved in a situation like this and found myself up against a 350 lb drugged up guy, I'd have been swinging my nightstick a lot harder than what I observed on the cruiser tape. The one cop is continually jabbing the suspect with the end of his baton rather than taking full swings while holding on to the side handle.

I'm afraid I'd have gone to full contact swings in an attempt to take his legs out from under him if he had managed to get to his feet again. Luckily, backup arrived before they had to start intentionally trying to break ribs and kneecaps.

[Luke T.]

Originally posted by Grammatron


Just out of curiosity, what kind of punishment did that guy receive, if any?

After we got him back to the ship, I turned him over to the master-at-arms, and he was taken to medical. Apparently, he continued his fighting games at medical, causing them to put him in restraints. He was ultimately administratively discharged.

edited to add: He refused the offerred substance addiction treatment.

[Kevin_Lowe]

Originally posted by Stimpson J. Cat
Kevin,

I am sure that a blood choke would work just fine, if you managed to get the person into the choke hold, and then managed to maintain the choke hold when Mr. 350lbs-of-pissed-off-meat decides that the best way to get you off of him is to simply fall on you.


Sure. I wasn't putting these techniques forward as the equivalent of the Vulcan Nerve Pinch or whatever it was called, and I wasn't suggesting that Officer Plod could use it to effortlessly solve problems like the one we're discussing by themselves.

But they had half a dozen officers on the scene by the time they subdued the suspect. With that many folks in one place, someone could probably have applied a choke. I haven't watched the video, though.


Grappling techniques require considerable training to be effective in a real fight. They are especially difficult to make work when your opponent is bigger and stronger than you are.


Again, it's one thing to walk up to someone and make a technique work. It's another to use it as a finishing move when five of your buddies already have the suspect mostly immobilised.


I guess that depends on what you would consider appropriate police training. If we gave every police officer something like 5 years of hand-to-hand combat training, complete with full-contact sparring, maybe.

You can teach someone a few different ways of applying a blood choke in a few hours. Whether they'd remember it under pressure is a different matter, of course.

I haven't had five years of full-contact fighting experience, but I've successfully applied a few different blood chokes against resisting opponents in practise sessions all by myself. If I had five friends to help me, I imagine I could get a fairly good success rate. :)