Was the primary evidence for 9/11 obtained through torture?

[aggle-rithm]

I have been in a discussion with Jihad Jane in another thread, and I felt it appropriate to move it here.

JJ claims (or at least, suggests) that the primary basis for believing the 9/11 was carried out by middle eastern terrorists was testimony obtained through torture.

I asked several times for his(her?) basis for this claim, and after much dodging and weaving, JJ finally threw the 9/11 Commission Report out there. According to one major news outlet, over 400 citations listed in the footnotes referrenced CIA interrogation of detainees.

So, I dove into the 9/11 Commission report. I haven't finished yet, but so far I have found:

1. Of the 400+ references to interrogation, just over 100 were not corroborated from other sources.
2. When there are conflicts between different sources, or any doubt about the reliability of the source, the report openly admits it.
3. As far as I could tell, the central theory of 9/11, that it was carried out by al Qaeda operatives (or at least Middle Eastern terrorists with significant financial support) was obtained not through these interrogations, but through FBI investigations.

I brought this to JJ's attention, but her(his?) reaction was that the Commission Report was bogus and shouldn't be relied upon as a source. Never mind that JJ was the one who originally brought it up...

So, what I'm looking for is two things:

-- Does "CIA interrogation" mean the same thing as "torture"?
-- Without this torture, do we have enough evidence to point to a perpetrator of 9/11? I'm not looking for a specific person here, but a general enough idea of what sort of group was involved so that we can definitely say whether or not it was an inside job.

I think "not enough evidence" for the first question, and an emphatic "yes" to the second.

What does everyone else think?

[BigAl]

I have been in a discussion with Jihad Jane in another thread, and I felt it appropriate to move it here.

JJ claims (or at least, suggests) that the primary basis for believing the 9/11 was carried out by middle eastern terrorists was testimony obtained through torture.

ObL was by his own statements well known as an enemy of the US before 9/11 happened, most recently in the attack on the USS Cole (fall 2000). We connected ObL to the Cole attack via signals intelligence (the NSA) and other sources. See Bamford [9].

By his own words, we know that ObL wanted to bait the US into attacking him on his own turf. When the Cole attack failed to do that, he approved a plan that would up being the attacks of 9/11. See [5]

http://911links.webs.com/binLaden.htm

Table Of Contents
[1] NEWS (Jan 2001) Some See U.S. as Terrorists' Next Big Target
[2] (Jan 2001) ObL Tells Reporter that US attacks are comming.
[3] New York Times reports about al Queda about 89 times prior to 9/11/2001
[4] bin Laden quotes
[5] Al Qaeda: Statements and Evolving Ideology
[6] 1996: bin Laden declares war on America.
[7] ObL attacks on America prior to 2001 listed
[8] Specific attack warnings
[9] Bibliography
[10] 1998 ObL Fatwa calling for attack on the US
[11] Complete 9/11 timeline
[12] Answer to "bin Laden not wanted by FBI"
[13] US Government "Wanted" poster for biin Ladem

[leftysergeant]

Every report I have heard shows the FBI extracting a lot of useful intel from several people, including KSM, before the CIA and the "contractors" got their grubby hands on them.I have seen no evidence of their having given up anything reliable since then.

Big difference? The FBI operated by the Army Field Manual. The CIA went all Jack Bauer on people.

The al Qaeda leads were developed by the FBI using lawful and scientific methods. CIA just screwed it all up,. perhaps deliberately so, in an effort to frame Saddam, maybe to invent causus belli with Iran.

[Quad4_72]

I have been in a discussion with Jihad Jane in another thread,

Well that's your problem right there.:p

[firecoins]

-- Does "CIA interrogation" mean the same thing as "torture"?No it does not. However since most of the so called torture was done under secracy, all interrogation will considered suspicious. However KSM was wanted for terrorism way before 9/11m was the uncle to the planner of the 1993 attacks. OBL has admitted to 9/11 and he is not in custody.

-- Without this torture, do we have enough evidence to point to a perpetrator of 9/11? We have tons of evidence of a hijacking and suicide mission and none for an inside job.

[firecoins]

Don't forget the 1993 WTC bombing is connected to the 2001 attacks.

The CIA did not mess up the 9/11 investigation. The OBL unit was investigating Al Qeida for a decade.

Terrorism existed before 9/11/01.

[T.A.M.]

I asked this very question in the "Legitimate Questions" thread about a week ago. I suppose it does deserve its own thread though, so we will see how it goes.

TAM:)

[ktesibios]

Well, to the FBI agents who had to spend their time poring over credit card records, ATM transactions, airline ticket sales, flight school records and so on it might have seemed like torture...;)

[Jackanory]

Well, to the FBI agents who had to spend their time poring over credit card records, ATM transactions, airline ticket sales, flight school records and so on it might have seemed like torture...;)

This just lead them to KSM.

Waterboarding is also used during some military training on serving soldiers in UK - so what. Builds the character.

KSM would have experienced similar training in the camps in Afghan/Pakistan to ready himself for capture. He failed. He should have been stoned in the street. Had a western group of terrorists slammed a few planes into Iran or Iraq and then been caught - they would have been. Security guards and drivers are being beheaded on video. Waterboarding is a walk in the park.

I would much prefare some waterboarding than death by being ripped apart during a high speed collision or being burned to death or crushed to death - all for a mad ideal.

Perhaps Jihad Jane lives on a farm far from the madding crowd - AK47 propping up the back door.

[T.A.M.]

This just lead them to KSM.

Waterboarding is also used during some military training on serving soldiers in UK - so what. Builds the character.

KSM would have experienced similar training in the camps in Afghan/Pakistan to ready himself for capture. He failed. He should have been stoned in the street. Had a western group of terrorists slammed a few planes into Iran or Iraq and then been caught - they would have been. Security guards and drivers are being beheaded on video. Waterboarding is a walk in the park.

I would much prefare some waterboarding than death by being ripped apart during a high speed collision or being burned to death or crushed to death - all for a mad ideal.

Perhaps Jihad Jane lives on a farm far from the madding crowd - AK47 propping up the back door.

while I am tempted to hash out all of the areas in your post above, this is not the place to do so...perhaps in politics.

TAM:)

[Jackanory]

while I am tempted to hash out all of the areas in your post above, this is not the place to do so...perhaps in politics.

TAM:)

Hash away Doc. I dont do politics sorry:)

[leftysergeant]

Hash away Doc. I dont do politics sorry:)
You don't dointelligence, either.

They got KSM through normal interrogation, long before the contractor thugs got their hands on the informant.

Waterboarding does not build character. It just tells the soldier how badly it sucks to get caught by barbarians.

I take it you are not a veteran, right?

[Dog Town]

Waterboarding is also used during some military training on serving soldiers in UK - so what. Builds the character.
TRUE...

Oh' it's a bit more than that! I tried it, dare others to draw the same card. Whle I have no issue, with the US doing it to scum of their ilk. It is not for the faint! As it shouldn't be!

[R.Mackey]

Without torture there is plenty of evidence to correctly identify bin Laden, Khalid Shaikh Mohammad, and the 19 highjackers.

The 19 were on the passenger lists. They were seen going on the aircraft. A few were partially identified by phone calls from the planes, some others by recovered artifacts from the impact sites. Mohammad Atta's luggage didn't make it on the plane with him. al-Qaeda claimed responsibility and released martyrdom videos on their own, while still out of reach of the USA entirely. Still more videographic evidence and data was recovered from combat zones, in the form of physical evidence, not interrogations.

A better question would be, "what information was only provided through interrogation, rather than merely used to corroborate what we already knew or suspected?" There will be some, I'm sure, but more contextual only.

And for the record, I am adamantly opposed to torture in all circumstances.

[JoeyDonuts]

Didn't KSM also admit responsibility in a media interview prior to his capture by the US?

[R.Mackey]

Sure did (http://911myths.com/index.php/Image:Team3_Box5_Hurley-Timelines.pdf). (Scroll down to page 25.)

[UNLoVedRebel]

-- Does "CIA interrogation" mean the same thing as "torture"?

No but waterboarding is torture. When you drown, you don't just hold your breath until you run out of oxygen. You hold your breath until you are unable to keep it in, then you reflexively exhale and water pours into your lungs and you die. Waterboarding simulates that process. You try to hold your breath until your "interragator" is out of water. You think it's all done with and you exhale then bam! you don't get oxygen but water. Your brain tells you "this is it". That's the torture part. It's not about holding your breath till it starts to hurt but about simulating drowning. This is why it can take as little as six seconds--as evident in the Mancow video. The water can easily make it to your lungs. It probably won't be enough to kill you if someone does CPR. That's why an EMT has to be there.

[J. Wellington Wimpy]

I have been in a discussion with Jihad Jane

masochism
(mas·och·ism)
n.
3. A willingness or tendency to subject oneself to unpleasant or trying experiences. (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/masochism)
;)

[Jackanory]

You don't dointelligence, either.

They got KSM through normal interrogation, long before the contractor thugs got their hands on the informant.

Waterboarding does not build character. It just tells the soldier how badly it sucks to get caught by barbarians.

I take it you are not a veteran, right?

Perhaps you should read my post again. I made it clear in the first sentence about KSM. The rest should be read as a hint of sarcasm directed towards Jihad Jane's hypocricy and with a little respect of ones own experiences.

Waterboarding is universal. KSM would have experienced it before.

"I take it you are not a veteran, right" - If being an ex british serviceman is classed as a veteran then yes.

[JihadJane]

Originally Posted by aggle-rithm
I have been in a discussion with Jihad Jane in another thread, and I felt it appropriate to move it here.

JJ claims (or at least, suggests) that the primary basis for believing the 9/11 was carried out by middle eastern terrorists was testimony obtained through torture.

aggle-rithm is misrepresenting my stated position, which is that a large chunk of the "evidence" that informs the widely believed, 'Us verses Them', 911 plot narrative was informed by "evidence" gleaned from torture.

Though balking at using the word torture, Bush-regime insider and executive director of the 9/11 Commission, Philip D. Zelikow, agrees, having stated that "quite a bit, if not most" of [the Commission's] information on the 9/11 conspiracy "did come from the interrogations."

http://deepbackground.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/01/30/624314.aspx




Perhaps you should read my post again. I made it clear in the first sentence about KSM. The rest should be read as a hint of sarcasm directed towards Jihad Jane's hypocricy and with a little respect of ones own experiences.

Waterboarding is universal. KSM would have experienced it before.

"I take it you are not a veteran, right" - If being an ex british serviceman is classed as a veteran then yes.

Would you like to point out how I have been hypocritical, Jackanory?



Waterboarding is also used during some military training on serving soldiers in UK - so what. Builds the character.



I have talked at length with a UK special forces veteran about his training. Far from being character-building he believes that his experience of practice torture crippled him emotionally and physically for life.

[FineWine]

aggle-rithm is misrepresenting my stated position, which is that a large chunk of the "evidence" that informs the widely believed, 'Us verses Them', 911 plot narrative was informed by "evidence" gleaned from torture.

Though balking at using the word torture, Bush-regime insider and executive director of the 9/11 Commission, Philip D. Zelikow, agrees, having stated that "quite a bit, if not most" of [the Commission's] information on the 9/11 conspiracy "did come from the interrogations."

http://deepbackground.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/01/30/624314.aspx






Would you like to point out how I have been hypocritical, Jackanory?




I have talked at length with a UK special forces veteran about his training. Far from being character-building he believes that his experience of practice torture crippled him emotionally and physically for life.


Explain how waterboarding cripples one physically for life.

[aggle-rithm]

aggle-rithm is misrepresenting my stated position, which is that a large chunk of the "evidence" that informs the widely believed, 'Us verses Them', 911 plot narrative was informed by "evidence" gleaned from torture.


Yes, I know you like to use neutral and somewhat vague words like "informs" to avoid committing to a well-defined position. However, it's clear what you were inferring. "How can we believe the 'preferred narrative' when the evidence was gleaned from torture, and therefore unreliable?"

Is that not your position? Do you now say that you believe that most of the information is from reliable sources?


Though balking at using the word torture, Bush-regime insider and executive director of the 9/11 Commission, Philip D. Zelikow, agrees, having stated that "quite a bit, if not most" of [the Commission's] information on the 9/11 conspiracy "did come from the interrogations."

http://deepbackground.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/01/30/624314.aspx



Again, you don't have to take an authority's word on it. You can actually READ THE REPORT and see for yourself what information was obtained by interrogation of detainees and what came from other sources. You can also see that most of the information from the interrogations was corroborated by other sources.

If you dismiss the report as a work of fiction, then why cite the report to support your position?

[aggle-rithm]

I have talked at length with a UK special forces veteran about his training. Far from being character-building he believes that his experience of practice torture crippled him emotionally and physically for life.

Must have been part of the screening process.

[Jackanory]

"quite a bit, if not most" of [the Commission's] information on the 9/11 conspiracy "did come from the interrogations."

Would you like to point out how I have been hypocritical, Jackanory?

I have talked at length with a UK special forces veteran about his training. Far from being character-building he believes that his experience of practice torture crippled him emotionally and physically for life.

You dont seem to understand what interrogation means and portray it as meaning torture. Interrogation takes on many forms and depends who is using it. The UK police use interrogation techniques on the general public as do the NYPD and FBI- they ask questions for hours, a form of interrogation. The UK military use interrogation techniques on combatants (those such as KSM)- they detain them, isolate them, use sleep deprevation, stress positions, white noise and ask questions for hours. Branches of the UK military use more forms of interrogation for training purposes. It semi conditions military personel who are more likely to become captive due to the job and locations they enter. Absolutely nothing new to report about that. UK military personel know it. Its run of the mill stuff and common knowledge. Like it or not thats the military. I dont expect an office clerk in a bank to accept it as being run of the mill stuff but tough.

As for KSM and his associates. At training camps they dont just learn how to use an RPG, AK47 and build crude IED's. A little more goes into their training. Which also includes counter measures, counter intelligence, anti surveilance, ambush and anti ambush techniques, evasive driving techniques, house clearance techniques, interrogation techniques and counter interrogation techniques. They are trained, as are UK military, to give as little away as possible. KSM and his assocciates are probably more adept at dishing it out than receiving it and use far more techniques that would make your toes curl.
Failing that they simply cut your head off and post the video on youtube.

Your hypocricy stinks in almost every post you make. You either defend mass murderers or winge at how a government couldnt prevent such a thing as 911. Hypocrite with a capital H.

I have probably served with and met more 'special forces' personel than you will ever get to speak too and still do. I very much doubt that your friend suffered those experiences from training senarios from within the UK military. He wouldnt have passed the selection process, FACT. If his psychological and physical welbeing actually happened at all it was probably at the hands of the likes of KSM, and not through run of the mill military training.

Character building is normal everyday terminology in the UK military. I know through many years of personal experience. FACT. A semi naked river crossing in February at -5 is termed as character building. A 30 mile yomp over Dartmore with 50lb is termed as character building. A 3 day sleep deprevation exercise with stress positions and white noise is termed as character building. Terminology that you and many other ill informed would fail to understand. Sky hooks, tartan paint, long stand, short stand are also terms used. Would you understand when and why they where used?

What is SAS selection? What is US Navy Seal hell week? It would be torture to the average joe in a bank in Ohio or to the average arm chair poster on forums, but to military personel it builds character.

[funk de fino]

They knock you down to build you back up. Non military google fu experts have no idea.

They would rather sit on the sidelines and pretend they know.

Most special forces guys I served with or spoke with did not speak very much about stuff like that anyway.

[Jackanory]

They knock you down to build you back up. Non military google fu experts have no idea.

They would rather sit on the sidelines and pretend they know.

Most special forces guys I served with or spoke with did not speak very much about stuff like that anyway.

Not even to their wives, let alone a random poster to a public forum - especialy one who uses the name Jihad. The mind boggles.

[aggle-rithm]

I very much doubt that your friend suffered those experiences from training senarios from within the UK military. He wouldnt have passed the selection process, FACT.

That's exactly what I was thinking. I don't know about the UK, but in the US they figured out during WWII, when most of the guys they sent into combat were essentially useless because they refused to fire their weapons, that psychological screening of personnel was critical to military success. I would imagine the screening would be far more stringent for special forces than for the ordinary grunts.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

They knock you down to build you back up. Non military google fu experts have no idea.

They would rather sit on the sidelines and pretend they know.

Most special forces guys I served with or spoke with did not speak very much about stuff like that anyway.

I knew a guy who told me he used to be something of a delinquent in his misspent youth. He told me his whole world view got flipped around when he carried his chronic misbehavior into the army and managed to get himself sent to military jail. He never told me details, only that they just simply break you in military jail. To paraphrase Yoda, there is no "Try" there isn't even "Do Not", they set out to break you and they succeed.

The difference between most of us folks and special forces troops is they volunteer for this treatment.

[JihadJane]

Explain how waterboarding cripples one physically for life.



The person I was referring to was suffering from the consequences of being trained to resist electric shocks, not waterboarding.

Potential long term physical effects of waterboarding: death (drowning, heart attack); broken bones and other serious injuries (victim struggles to escape death). Lung damage (water inhalation and repeated gagging reflex), brain damage (oxygen deficiency).

Psychological damage (PTSD, panic attacks, depression) can also manifest physically in disabling ways, some of them fatal (e.g. suicide, drug/alcohol abuse, lack of self-care).



You dont seem to understand what interrogation means and portray it as meaning torture. Interrogation takes on many forms and depends who is using it. The UK police use interrogation techniques on the general public as do the NYPD and FBI- they ask questions for hours, a form of interrogation. The UK military use interrogation techniques on combatants (those such as KSM)- they detain them, isolate them, use sleep deprevation, stress positions, white noise and ask questions for hours. Branches of the UK military use more forms of interrogation for training purposes. It semi conditions military personel who are more likely to become captive due to the job and locations they enter. Absolutely nothing new to report about that. UK military personel know it. Its run of the mill stuff and common knowledge. Like it or not thats the military. I dont expect an office clerk in a bank to accept it as being run of the mill stuff but tough.



What you describe as run of the mill interrogation (sleep deprivation, stress positions, white noise) is considered to be torture under the UN Convention Against Torture.

http://www.hrweb.org/legal/cat.html#Article%202.1

Waterboarding, also.



As for KSM and his associates. At training camps they dont just learn how to use an RPG, AK47 and build crude IED's. A little more goes into their training. Which also includes counter measures, counter intelligence, anti surveilance, ambush and anti ambush techniques, evasive driving techniques, house clearance techniques, interrogation techniques and counter interrogation techniques. They are trained, as are UK military, to give as little away as possible. KSM and his assocciates are probably more adept at dishing it out than receiving it and use far more techniques that would make your toes curl.
Failing that they simply cut your head off and post the video on youtube.



Is this a variation of the "We're better than the Taliban" argument? I don't get your point.



Your hypocricy stinks in almost every post you make. You either defend mass murderers or winge at how a government couldnt prevent such a thing as 911. Hypocrite with a capital H.



It's easy to spout stinky abstractions. Perhaps you could provide a link to where I defend mass murderers and another for my alleged wingeing.



I have probably served with and met more 'special forces' personel than you will ever get to speak too and still do. I very much doubt that your friend suffered those experiences from training senarios from within the UK military. He wouldnt have passed the selection process, FACT. If his psychological and physical welbeing actually happened at all it was probably at the hands of the likes of KSM, and not through run of the mill military training.



The person wasn't a friend. I have no reasons to doubt what he said. The symptoms he experienced didn't manifest while he was in the service.





Character building is normal everyday terminology in the UK military. I know through many years of personal experience. FACT. A semi naked river crossing in February at -5 is termed as character building. A 30 mile yomp over Dartmore with 50lb is termed as character building. A 3 day sleep deprevation exercise with stress positions and white noise is termed as character building. Terminology that you and many other ill informed would fail to understand. Sky hooks, tartan paint, long stand, short stand are also terms used. Would you understand when and why they where used?

What is SAS selection? What is US Navy Seal hell week? It would be torture to the average joe in a bank in Ohio or to the average arm chair poster on forums, but to military personel it builds character.




I don't get your point here, either. Are you saying that this character building can prevent physical after-effects and things like Post Traumatic Sress Disorder from developing, so therefore I can’t be telling the truth?

Many veterans experience disabling physical and psychological trauma-related symptoms for years after their service, sometimes for life. A militarily well-built character is no protection against such symptoms, whatever their genesis.



Not even to their wives, let alone a random poster to a public forum - especialy one who uses the name Jihad. The mind boggles.


:) Do you think I’m a "random poster to a public forum" everywhere I go?


JihadJane is just a screen name and, coincidentally, a name sometimes given to the well-known US traitor, Jane Fonda.

I notice that you do not precede all your posts with “Are you sitting comfortably? ... Then I’ll begin”.

[Jackanory]

The person I was referring to was suffering from the consequences of being trained to resist electric shocks, not waterboarding.

Potential long term physical effects of waterboarding: death (drowning, heart attack); broken bones and other serious injuries (victim struggles to escape death). Lung damage (water inhalation and repeated gagging reflex), brain damage (oxygen deficiency).

Psychological damage (PTSD, panic attacks, depression) can also manifest physically in disabling ways, some of them fatal (e.g. suicide, drug/alcohol abuse, lack of self-care).


What you describe as run of the mill interrogation (sleep deprivation, stress positions, white noise) is considered to be torture under the UN Convention Against Torture.

http://www.hrweb.org/legal/cat.html#Article%202.1

Waterboarding, also.

Is this a variation of the "We're better than the Taliban" argument? I don't get your point.

It's easy to spout stinky abstractions. Perhaps you could provide a link to where I defend mass murderers and another for my alleged wingeing.


The person wasn't a friend. I have no reasons to doubt what he said. The symptoms he experienced didn't manifest while he was in the service.

I don't get your point here, either. Are you saying that this character building can prevent physical after-effects and things like Post Traumatic Sress Disorder from developing, so therefore I can’t be telling the truth?

Many veterans experience disabling physical and psychological trauma-related symptoms for years after their service, sometimes for life. A militarily well-built character is no protection against such symptoms, whatever their genesis.

:) Do you think I’m a "random poster to a public forum" everywhere I go?


JihadJane is just a screen name and, coincidentally, a name sometimes given to the well-known US traitor, Jane Fonda.

I notice that you do not precede all your posts with “Are you sitting comfortably? ... Then I’ll begin”.

As expected, you missinterpret and mislead your way out of the hole you dig. Night night

[dropzone]

evidence for 9/11 obtained through torture?Nope. It was a combination of:

1. We saw it on TV. I've been in the computer grapics biz since the early 80s and I know when someone is trying to fool me. Ergo: Two planes hit the WTC.

2. A knowledge from years in the metals industry of how heat affects metal. And the knowledge, in a fire, that steel bends before wood fails. Thus the (non-9/11) photo of two I-beams U'ed over a wooden truss was an obvious result. To a BARELY, much less "well," trained mind a glance at the fires showed that a collapse was probably inevitable.

3. 19 suspects, including 4 pilots who could do the job, as could any player of MS Flight Simulator, were together on the planes.

4. Osama bin Laden, an engineer but a poor one since he expressed surprise at the success of the mission, expressed pleasure at the success of the mission. Moron thought the towers would keel over, not drop straight down.

5. NO OTHER CLAIM HAS NOT BEEN DISMISSED OUT OF HAND! This may seem like evidence that an "official explanation" is being adhered to, but that belief shows how little one knows of the engineering community. We're cranks, and I'm not surprised that some have gone to the Truther side. What is telling is how FEW of us have not. When a lot of engineering types agree don't DISAGREE on something, you can be pretty sure of what they don't disagree on.

[JihadJane]

As expected, you missinterpret and mislead your way out of the hole you dig. Night night


Thanks for your informative response!

[T.A.M.]

Hash away Doc. I dont do politics sorry:)

Well, I don't do politics in the 9/11 CT subforum, so I will leave it as saying, we seem to differ in our opinions of what is considered torture...and that is fine..it is human to disagree.

TAM:)

[T.A.M.]

Explain how waterboarding cripples one physically for life.

Physically...unlikely...you are correct.
Mentally...depends on the response of the individual.

TAM:)