Segregated high school proms divide Georgia's students

[666]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/5586617/Segregated-high-school-proms-divide-Georgias-students.html (http://forums.randi.org/Segregated%20high%20school%20proms%20divide%20Geor gia%27s%20students)


In early summer when Georgia peaches are at their sweetest and high school seniors can't wait to be loosed on the world, separate proms are part of the bitter aftertaste of segregation that persists in parts of America's Deep South.
I was surprised to read this story in the UK press. I always assumed (wrongly, it seems) that Proms were organised by the schools, not the parents.

I'm wondering how widespread this "separate-but-equal" situation is.

[Alt+F4]

I was surprised to read this story in the UK press. I always assumed (wrongly, it seems) that Proms were organised by the schools, not the parents.

Usually they are, but not in this case. From a recent NY Times article:

The senior proms held by Montgomery County High School students — referred to by many students as “the black-folks prom” and “the white-folks prom” — are organized outside school through student committees with the help of parents. All students are welcome at the black prom, though generally few if any white students show up. The white prom, students say, remains governed by a largely unspoken set of rules about who may come.

Black members of the student council say they have asked school administrators about holding a single school-sponsored prom, but that, along with efforts to collaborate with white prom planners, has failed.

According to Timothy Wiggs, the outgoing student council president and one of 21 black students graduating this year, “We just never get anywhere with it.” Principal Luke Smith says the school has no plans to sponsor a prom, noting that when it did so in 1995, attendance was poor.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/24/magazine/24prom-t.html

[Fnord]

It's my understanding (which could be wrong) that when a publically-funded school organizes a prom, it must abide by all applicable equal-rights laws. It's also my understanding that if a group of parents organize a prom as a privately-funded function, they can place any restrictions upon it they want.

Sort of like holding a "members only" function at a country club.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Segregated high school proms divide Georgia's students

Isn't that what they're supposed to do?

[Safe-Keeper]

Unbelievable, but ultimately little different from how the Boy Scout Alliance won't even admit 'confessed' atheists and homosexuals.

Simple solution - make it so that public funding means you can't discriminate or segregate.

[Alt+F4]

Simple solution - make it so that public funding means you can't discriminate or segregate.

Yeah, but in this case no public money is being used for the segregated proms. The funding and organization are coming from the students and their parents.

[quixotecoyote]

Unbelievable, but ultimately little different from how the Boy Scout Alliance won't even admit 'confessed' atheists and homosexuals.

Simple solution - make it so that public funding means you can't discriminate or segregate.

Did you miss that it was private parent groups hosting the prom or did I miss the point you were making?

[ProbeX]

I know my attitude doesn't take away the general concern about discriminatory practices in society but ....

Proms are arguably as American as apple pie, but honestly my proms were a little more meaningful than an evening spent toiletpapering trees. I get the sneaking suspicion a lot of others have the same sentiment.

[quixotecoyote]

I know my attitude doesn't take away the general concern about discriminatory practices in society but ....

Proms are arguably as American as apple pie, but honestly my proms were a little more meaningful than an evening spent toiletpapering trees. I get the sneaking suspicion a lot of others have the same sentiment.

I came so close to boarding the boat my prom was on from an inflatable raft with a bunch of friends dressed as pirates and delivering a bunch of pizzas. We even had the guy on board with the rope ladder to attach to the railing.

Unfortunately one of my grandparents needed to go to the hospital and we couldn't use the van for transport.

THAT would have been a meaningful experience.

[Redtail]

I came so close to boarding the boat my prom was on from an inflatable raft with a bunch of friends dressed as pirates and delivering a bunch of pizzas. We even had the guy on board with the rope ladder to attach to the railing.

Unfortunately one of my grandparents needed to go to the hospital and we couldn't use the van for transport.

THAT would have been a meaningful experience.

Even though it didn't work out, I for one salute you!

[ProbeX]

I came so close to boarding the boat my prom was on from an inflatable raft with a bunch of friends dressed as pirates and delivering a bunch of pizzas. We even had the guy on board with the rope ladder to attach to the railing.

Unfortunately one of my grandparents needed to go to the hospital and we couldn't use the van for transport.

THAT would have been a meaningful experience.

Admittedly this has got to be one of the most creative failed prom stories I've ever heard of ... A couple of hours of motion sickness later you might have been lucky enough to collectively hurl pizza-beer chunks all over your "captives".

[a_unique_person]

Did you miss that it was private parent groups hosting the prom or did I miss the point you were making?

The school hosted non segregated ones and there was not enough support, but the segregated ones are supported.

[alfaniner]

I for one can't believe that this sort of thing still goes on in the U.S., but then I live nowhere near Georgia.

[quixotecoyote]

The school hosted non segregated ones and there was not enough support, but the segregated ones are supported.

According to the article:

The senior proms held by Montgomery County High School students — referred to by many students as “the black-folks prom” and “the white-folks prom” — are organized outside school through student committees with the help of parents.

....

Principal Luke Smith says the school has no plans to sponsor a prom

[Thunder]

Usually they are, but not in this case. From a recent NY Times article:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/24/magazine/24prom-t.html

this is one of the many reasons why I HATE the South.

I cannot believe that any school in the USA would still have segregated proms. Makes me want to puke.

This is 2009 right? Not 1909? Unbelievable.

:(

[Damien Evans]

this is one of the many reasons why I HATE the South.

I cannot believe that any school in the USA would still have segregated proms. Makes me want to puke.

This is 2009 right? Not 1909? Unbelievable.

:(

Reading comprehension not your strong suit, eh?

[SezMe]

So the head screw tried it a dozen years ago and it didn't work...nice effort, fellow. Don't get discouraged.

Also, I guess he lost his bully pulpit. If he was out there demanding fully integrated proms and shaming the parents kids who are promoting anything else, he might make a difference. But nooooo, look at '95.

In my book, he's a closet racist.

ETA: ...with no cajones.

[linusrichard]

Reading comprehension not your strong suit, eh?

So parky appears to have gotten the impression that the segregated proms are school-sponsored - does that mistake really detract from his point? I think it's kind of trivial - it's still segregated proms, it's still 2009, and it's still disgusting.

[a_unique_person]

According to the article:

It then goes on to say


Principal Luke Smith says the school has no plans to sponsor a prom, noting that when it did so in 1995, attendance was poor.

[Madalch]

This doesn't actually surprise me. I remember reading ( in the early 1990s) about a school in Toronto, of all places, where the black kids were organizing their own prom because they felt that the school-supported prom would insufficiently reflect their "black culture". There are still groups in Toronto agitating for "blacks-only" schools.

[quixotecoyote]

It then goes on to say

Which suggests it supports (funds) a segregated prom how, exactly?

[a_unique_person]

Which suggests it supports (funds) a segregated prom how, exactly?

It suggests there was an attempt to set up a non segregated Prom which was ignored by those who want a segregated Prom, which seems to have been enough people to make it pointless putting on the non segregated Prom.

[Skeptic]

If it was school-supported, that would indeed be illegal. But what seems to be the case is that there is a school-supported prom for all students (perfectly legitimate), and white jerks prefer not to go there, and instead to a private party they call "their" prom.

It's perfectly legal. If it's a private party, they have a right to associate only with those they wish and call it what they wish. They can invite only white people and call it a "prom". They can invite only people named "George" who speak fluent Esperanto and call it an "orgy", too. But just because it's legal to be a racist jerk hardly means one should act that way.

Let us hope the exposition of this thing will lead to its embarrased cancellation.

Jerks.

[Travis]

They held our Prom on a horse ranch. I don't know how it worked because I didn't go to it.

[themusicteacher]

They are indeed a bunch of racist douchebags disguising their bigotry and hatred behind "tradition" but, since they are private parties (a less than clever way of endorsing tacit racism), they are in every way legal. It's disgusting, it's terrible, it's lame, it's anachronistic, it's deplorable, etc. but they do, unfortunately, have a right to raise their children to be hateful, self-righteous, backwards troglodytes. Fear wins the day again!

[ToddH]

I live in a small town in Georgia and, yes, the proms here are still segregated. Of course, like the article stated, the school doesn't sponsor them. Still, it saddens me that this continues.

[quixotecoyote]

It suggests there was an attempt to set up a non segregated Prom which was ignored by those who want a segregated Prom, which seems to have been enough people to make it pointless putting on the non segregated Prom.

I think you got a little lost. The post of mine you objected to was objecting to this post by Safe-Keeper:

Unbelievable, but ultimately little different from how the Boy Scout Alliance won't even admit 'confessed' atheists and homosexuals.

Simple solution - make it so that public funding means you can't discriminate or segregate.

As I pointed out that it wouldn't have any effect as the segregated proms don't receive public funding.

I'm not sure you thought I was saying what I actually said.

[Ladewig]

Let us hope the exposition of this thing will lead to its embarrased cancellation.

Jerks.

I share your hope, but I have found embarrassment to not be very effective at reducing the bigotry of racists.

[I Ratant]

The school hosted non segregated ones and there was not enough support, but the segregated ones are supported.
.
Ethnic dislike cuts both ways.
Three ways, when there's Whites, Blacks and Hispanics.

[666]

Thanks for all the replies to my OP; I'm glad that it's not a widespread feature.

I just Googled segregated prom and got loads of hits, mostly disapproving, so perhaps the situation is becoming more widely known. I think most people - outside the South at any rate - are surprised that it still exists.

[godless dave]

I share your hope, but I have found embarrassment to not be very effective at reducing the bigotry of racists.

I agree. Some of them even relish the negative attention - it feeds their persecution complex.

[dudalb]

They held our Prom on a horse ranch. I don't know how it worked because I didn't go to it.

The Sierra Foothills: California's answer to the Ozarks.

[dudalb]

this is one of the many reasons why I HATE the South.

I cannot believe that any school in the USA would still have segregated proms. Makes me want to puke.

This is 2009 right? Not 1909? Unbelievable.

:(


Let's see somebody complains about bigotry then says he hates a whole section of the country.Nice.
And I am sure I could find plenty of bigotry In the Northeast or any other section of the country.
I understand the South's has a special tradition of bigotry, but still...

[Skeptic]

I share your hope, but I have found embarrassment to not be very effective at reducing the bigotry of racists.

I disagree. Once it became embarrasing to be a racist in public, it becomes harder to hold such beliefs even in private. Here are two ways, off the top of my head (there are surely many more) this happens:

First, if one no longer hears constant reassurances of one's racist beliefs from other people in public, one no longer reinforces one's beliefs about the darkies with your drinking buddies in the pub (or your favorite columnist in the paper, or whatever), naturally becomes weaker in time.

Second, when dealing with Blacks in public because one is forced to after segregation is ended, one is likely to discover that "they" are human beings, too; close association notoriously makes stereotypes weaker.

Of course some will refuse all evidence and retain their views no matter what, but the average American white was by today's standards a deep racist only 50 years ago, and he isn't now. Why? Because of the effect of the public sphere on private beliefs.

[Skeptic]

Let's see somebody complains about bigotry then says he hates a whole section of the country.Nice.
And I am sure I could find plenty of bigotry In the Northeast or any other section of the country.
I understand the South's has a special tradition of bigotry, but still...

The "I hate all of those dirty [insert group here] because they're racist" way of thinking is not at all uncommon in some "enlightened" circles, I have found.

[I Ratant]

...
Second, when dealing with Blacks in public because one is forced to after segregation is ended, one is likely to discover that "they" are human beings, too; close association notoriously makes stereotypes weaker.

...
.
A friend, an expatriot from Iran was eager to meet all manner of Americans when he opened his coffee kiosk at the Mall.
He became disenchanted with blacks as he said they tended to give him the most grief when purchasing the coffee, and some of them departing (rapidly) with the jar for the tips.
He got upset with me because I like black women. (And brown, yellow, pink, orange, purple... whatever).
I've been ignoring color as a reason for disparagement for as long as I can remember. although I can't say the same for the rest of my family.

[Nogbad]

Oh! That sort of segregation.

I thought the boys and girls going to different proms was kind of strange.

[Ladewig]

Of course some will refuse all evidence and retain their views no matter what, but the average American white was by today's standards a deep racist only 50 years ago, and he isn't now. Why? Because of the effect of the public sphere on private beliefs.

Either that or the racists have been dying off for the past 50 years.

[Praktik]

This doesn't actually surprise me. I remember reading ( in the early 1990s) about a school in Toronto, of all places, where the black kids were organizing their own prom because they felt that the school-supported prom would insufficiently reflect their "black culture". There are still groups in Toronto agitating for "blacks-only" schools.

Indeed. On the local dance culture board, tribe.ca, the thread for the "black only schools" jumped to 12 pages in a matter of hours.

[pchams]

This doesn't actually surprise me. I remember reading ( in the early 1990s) about a school in Toronto, of all places, where the black kids were organizing their own prom because they felt that the school-supported prom would insufficiently reflect their "black culture". There are still groups in Toronto agitating for "blacks-only" schools.

Agitating? They have it:
http://www.nationalpost.com/news/story.html?id=272389

I personally think this is wrong. Just as I think separate Catholic schools are wrong. There should be one public school system funded by all.
However, I guess we will see how this goes.

As far as the OP is concerned, I think there should be an integrated prom for the whole school.
If white or black racists want to hold their own proms separately, go ahead, but
the goal, I think today, should be to work together to reach common solutions to worldly problems.

[Beerina]

Agitating? They have it:
http://www.nationalpost.com/news/story.html?id=272389

I personally think this is wrong. Just as I think separate Catholic schools are wrong. There should be one public school system funded by all.
However, I guess we will see how this goes.

Personally, I reject the notion that anybody is so damned sure about anything that they can jam it down everybody's throat.

The public schools make the people who don't use it pay for it, anyway. Imagine the outrage if some private school could make everyone in the district pay for them, too. And I don't mean some silly voucher system, either. You know what I mean.


Change one word: Private --> Government, and suddenly nasty becomes something "you'd pray for".

[linusrichard]

Agitating? They have it:
http://www.nationalpost.com/news/story.html?id=272389

Read what you link to:
The school would be open to all students.

[pchams]

Read what you link to:
I live in Toronto.
They voted it in. But don't take my word for it...
Ultimately the Toronto District School Board Trustee’s passed the motion to create an Afrocentric School from K-5 for the 2009-2010 school year with a vote of 11-9. One of the conditions required enrollment of at least twenty students in two consecutive grades (i.e. twenty grade threes, and twenty grade fours). As of this week, just eight students have been registered, after many public information sessions.
http://laforet.ca/2008/12/15/torontos-afrocentric-school-may-not-open/

So the Toronto school board voted to allow for it, but it yet remains whether all proponents for this silly idea will actually enroll for next season.

[linusrichard]

I live in Toronto.
They voted it in. But don't take my word for it...

http://laforet.ca/2008/12/15/torontos-afrocentric-school-may-not-open/

So the Toronto school board voted to allow for it, but it yet remains whether all proponents for this silly idea will actually enroll for next season.
Let's try this again:
There are still groups in Toronto agitating for "blacks-only" schools.

Agitating? They have it:
http://www.nationalpost.com/news/story.html?id=272389


And then, in the article you linked to:

The school would be open to all students.

So... that would be a no.

[slingblade]

Now, now, let's all remember that racism in the U.S. is dead.





Well, that's what I keep hearing....

[godless dave]

I disagree. Once it became embarrasing to be a racist in public, it becomes harder to hold such beliefs even in private. Here are two ways, off the top of my head (there are surely many more) this happens:

First, if one no longer hears constant reassurances of one's racist beliefs from other people in public, one no longer reinforces one's beliefs about the darkies with your drinking buddies in the pub (or your favorite columnist in the paper, or whatever), naturally becomes weaker in time.

Second, when dealing with Blacks in public because one is forced to after segregation is ended, one is likely to discover that "they" are human beings, too; close association notoriously makes stereotypes weaker.

Of course some will refuse all evidence and retain their views no matter what, but the average American white was by today's standards a deep racist only 50 years ago, and he isn't now. Why? Because of the effect of the public sphere on private beliefs.


Well when you put it that way I have to agree with you.

I think the racist people who are left, the ones still organizing segregated proms for their kids, are probably that hard core that is not swayed by embarassment. But keeping the pressure on can't hurt.

[godless dave]

Now, now, let's all remember that racism in the U.S. is dead.





Well, that's what I keep hearing....

I haven't actually heard that anywhere. Who is claiming that?

[slingblade]

I haven't actually heard that anywhere. Who is claiming that?

Well, you may see it in this forum from time to time. I have on occasion, but no, I don't have the specific post/poster memorized.

[Travis]

The Sierra Foothills: California's answer to the Ozarks.

We prefer to think of it as more like Appalachia, but the Ozarks kinda fits too.

[Skeptic]

Racism isn't dead EVER, ANYWHERE, because human nature will not allow it.

But what is true is that the USA is NO LONGER A RACIST COUNTRY. The fact that there are (and always will be) assorted racist idiots does not disprove this fact.

Race simply doesn't matter any more to most Americans.