A Xian speaks to an Atheist about the comfort of Atheism [Archive]

kittynh

24th June 2009, 10:12 AM

I had a converation with an atheist friend and with her permission, she knows people here on the forum and doesn't want anyone to know who she is, I'm going to post about it.

I am a Christian but with many wonderful atheist friends. One friend seems especially happy with life, caring, and strong. Believers often tout the benefits of religion, as if it comes with a dental plan, and so I decided to ask her what benefits she derived from being and atheist. Indeed, were there benefits besides being able to sleep in late on Sundays?

She was very honest with me, about how becoming an atheist changed her life from one of unhappiness and misery to a reawakening of the joy of life.

She was religious at one time. Very much so, but in a church that pushed the "good rewarded, bad punished" viewpoint. So when she was involved in a car crash and her son died who was a passenger in the car, she was devestated. She also says she blamed herself, she was inattentive, actually messing about with changing a CD, and crashed. At the hospital she says she prayed her son would live, she bargained "take me, not him". Instead, she lived but with much pain (I never knew she had pain still from the accident) and her son died.

She said that nothing helped her deal with this extreme agony. Her church taught her that she was being punished, but she kept thinking "for bad driving?" It was almost as if they pulled away from her, as if afraid if it could happen to her, it could happen to THEM, and they didn't want to think about it.

She got angry, she despaired, she fell into depression. She had to know the reason this had happened to her. Finally an atheist friend said "what if there is no reason. What if it was simply that bad things happen, it's all very sad, but it isn't anyone punishing you or your son. What if everything that happens, happens for no good reason at all. Good or bad. But that we can make a choice to do good things to help tip the odds in our favor?"

She was rather blown away by that. The letting go of finding the "why" and the focus on living now and helping others. Because we are the only ones that can help each other.

And so she began to focus her life on being positive and helping others and really enjoying the wonder of somehow beating the odds and being born into this wonderful world.

I thought it was wonderful. I happily did not grow up with a church that pushed the "reward- punishment" model, and I find great happiness and comfort in my beliefs. But it was good to hear that my atheist friends (and indeed my atheist children) also have comfort in their lack of belief. I thought I would share this story as most people assume atheist to be cold unemotional people detached from others. And I've found just the opposite with my good atheist friends (and children).

pgwenthold

24th June 2009, 10:15 AM

It is not surprising to hear atheists describe the relief they felt when they freed themselves from the shackles of god-belief.

MattusMaximus

24th June 2009, 10:32 AM

Hi Kitty. This story about your friend's journey to atheism mirrors my own - except that I didn't have quite so much tragedy in my journey (though it did involve me almost dying at one point). I, like your friend, did not really find much comfort or purpose until I entertained the possibility that there simply was no god(s) at all. And, like your friend, I found that once I embraced my atheism it was a liberating experience like none other in my life.

Thanks for sharing :)

Fnord

24th June 2009, 11:11 AM

A lot of similarities with my own story (I won't go into details). The exceptions being that I have not lost my belief in God, and that I have most certainly lost my trust in religion and those who practice and preach it. I've also come to the realization that (for me, at least) happiness in one's life does not depend so much on the state of a person's beliefs, but on the level of blind trust they have in religion and religionists.

This applies as well to trust in politics and politicians, but that's a topic for another thread.

God Bless You and/or Have a Nice Day!

;)

Matt the Poet

25th June 2009, 08:40 AM

I spent about two years pretending to be a full-on Christian as a precocious early teen. I was absolutely convinced – did Bible Study, praying, thought I was having special ‘insights’ into bits of the New Testament. It all passed and I was just left feeling faintly embarrassed. And that’s it. For the rest of the time that I can remember I was mainly not bothered one way or the other, and when confronted with religious arguments have usually found them either laughable, or offensive, or both.

Which is why I’m not sure that these rather self-serious tales of a ‘journey to atheism’ are particularly helpful. Once you’ve cured yourself of (or, if you’re lucky, were never infected with) ‘faith’ and worked out that the relationship between your ‘personal experience’ and reality is rather looser than you might have first assumed, then the case for atheism becomes overwhelmingly strong, and the case for apatheism absolutely watertight.

Making a big drama out of the whole thing just gives religionistas the comfort that you’re making some sort of big and ongoing philosophical decision, just like they are, instead of simply arriving at the most obvious conclusion.

Mister Agenda

25th June 2009, 08:48 AM

Dancing David

25th June 2009, 08:51 AM

For me, it came when I faced the issues of trauma in my past. Either the universe is uncaring, dieties can't do much or you are faced with why an all powerful and loving diety would let you suffer.

Madouc

25th June 2009, 08:54 AM

Without the accompanying tragedy, my journey towards a skeptical viewpoint came with precisely such a sense of awakening. I grew up surrounded by vague beliefs, not specifically religious, but definitely involving some idea of every piece of good or bad luck in my life a result of having somehow pacified or antagonised some capricious invisible being(s).

When I stumbled upon the JREF... what a shock! Things happened by chance and the results of my own decisions! There was no one watching my every move to judge me. It was an enormous weight off my shoulders and I felt so free.

HeyLeroy

25th June 2009, 12:55 PM

It's very refreshing to hear Christians say nice things about atheists. Given what the Bible says about us, it takes a pretty open mind to acknowledge we're decent folk not so different, especially morally.

Kitty's a fine person. I wish more Christians were like her.

ETA: Yes, I'm an atheist.

Steelmage

25th June 2009, 01:30 PM

The OP is a very nice and interesting post. Kitty seems to be more of a true 'Christian' then most Christians I have meet, and also like how she did not condemn the atheist at all. Great Thread.

HeyLeroy

25th June 2009, 04:25 PM

Kitty's a fine person. I wish more Christians were like her.

ETA: Yes, I'm an atheist.

Actually, I wish more humans in general were like her.

thaiboxerken

25th June 2009, 04:32 PM

I don't find atheism comforting at all.

MG1962

25th June 2009, 04:40 PM

She said that nothing helped her deal with this extreme agony. Her church taught her that she was being punished, but she kept thinking "for bad driving?" It was almost as if they pulled away from her, as if afraid if it could happen to her, it could happen to THEM, and they didn't want to think about it.

As a Christian speaking, things like this drive me to absolute distraction. How dare anyone claim to know God's mind, and then try to reinforce that claim on others. If we accept that, to some degree, God is responsible for everything we see around us, how can we claim to be even close to the same intellectual ballpark. It would be like explaining law of relativity to an ant

Part of the Christian faith, and I would guess many other faiths, is community. In a healthy community, someone is hurting, you try to help them. With this poor woman, it may simply sitting with her, let her talk at you and try to work through the event in their own way

This woman is going to punish herself for a brief momment of inattention more than any person living or dead will ever. She will wake every morning, and her first thought will be the loss of her child. She doesn't need any trumpted wannabee expert in the mind of God feeding these emotions

MattusMaximus

26th June 2009, 12:04 AM

I don't find atheism comforting at all.

It may sound weird, but I find a great deal of comfort in the notion that my existence is temporary and that when I die, I will be gone forever. It's what makes my life now so meaningful.

Call me strange...

arthwollipot

26th June 2009, 12:11 AM

Matt the Poet

26th June 2009, 02:49 AM

This pretty well mirrors my experience.

I think it’s the experience of very many people. You have to be exposed to it early to even gain some sense of why you should give a fig about the whole business.

It’s a paradox commensurate with Bill Hicks (pbuh) and his People who Hate People party (‘People who hate people, come together!’. ‘No!’). We need an impassioned group of apathetics – all the ranting just casts everyone on both sides for exactly the sort of ridiculous melodrama they imagine they’re performing in anyway

Nothing would silence the noisy godsters like all of us looking up as one and, with a weary sigh, murmuring ‘oh do shut up’ before turning back to all the little, wholly unmystical things we were quietly getting on with that give our lives meaning on an everyday human scale.

SezMe

26th June 2009, 03:46 AM

Call me strange...
You're strange. Hope that helps. :)

eGadfly

26th June 2009, 04:34 AM

Her church taught her that she was being punished,

Not to be a stick in the mud, but what the heck kinda church does she attend, the Holy Church of Bad Taste?

I really, REALLY find that statement hard to believe.

I am a die-hard atheist, but have attended many a church in my day and known many a believer, and I have a hard time picturing any of them being so callous and simply "mean".

... and if they were, ... sheesh, what a crappy church.

Rasmus

26th June 2009, 05:03 AM

It may sound weird, but I find a great deal of comfort in the notion that my existence is temporary and that when I die, I will be gone forever. It's what makes my life now so meaningful.

Call me strange...

You're strange.

That's a good thing.

I find the question of benefits and odd one, though. I don't have a choice, do I? There either is a god, or there isn't. To me, it is simply about being right or wrong. I am an atheist because I don't think there is a god. It's a consequence of my view of things and not something I decided or evaluated the benefits of.

The question to me is as pointless as asking what the benefits of belief in gravity are:

There are benefits for me being right, because I can make better decisions in life and better predict the outcome of my actions.

But there would be no benefits for me if I stopped believing in gravity and none of that has anything to do with the benefits I would enjoy if there was no gravity. (Because there will still be gravity no matter what I believe about it!)

Yes, being an atheist gives me comfort of a sort. OR rather: I dread the alternative. Life with an all-knowing god watching my every thought and move would be dreadful and pointless to me.I would live a life in the constant fear of eternal hell fire. But that I happen to like things better this way does in no way affect how things actually are - may I be right or wrong about them.

Rasmus

26th June 2009, 05:04 AM

Mr Clingford

26th June 2009, 05:55 AM

I don't understand that. If that is what they believe to be true, then how is it any better or worse than an equally irrational believe that only differs in mere details?
The devil is in the details, though.

It differs from other Xtian beliefs because many others Xtianities don't blame their believers if/ when things go wrong in their lives but accept that **** happens.

Many Xtians undergo belief changes from a Xtainity outlined in the OP to one which isn't so nasty.

Dancing David

26th June 2009, 06:22 AM

It may sound weird, but I find a great deal of comfort in the notion that my existence is temporary and that when I die, I will be gone forever. It's what makes my life now so meaningful.

Call me strange...

No (you are not strange), I have tried to explain that to theists and those who believe in heaven/hell.

They think that you should run rampant and just be a criminal. (Because there is not retribution in the after life.)

Then you say "But I am under a heavier obligation, I only have one chance to get it right."

Then they cry and run from the room.
;)

Rasmus

26th June 2009, 06:44 AM

The devil is in the details, though.

It differs from other Xtian beliefs because many others Xtianities don't blame their believers if/ when things go wrong in their lives but accept that **** happens.

Many Xtians undergo belief changes from a Xtainity outlined in the OP to one which isn't so nasty.

yes, i understand the practical difference. But either belief-set is irrational, so one isn't better than the other. They are both wrong for the same reasons. That you like one better than the other is circumstantial and not a factor that played a role in the initial setup.

pgwenthold

26th June 2009, 07:42 AM

A problem that I had as a theist was that I continually had to twist and contort my mind in order to try to rationalize my belief in god. I knew most of the bible was nonsense, yet still was trying to believe and so had to create a lot of bizarrre scenerios to justify my belief. This was especially hard given my usual rational thought (it was also disturbing to me that I held on to this irrational thought for apparently no reason)

When I accepted my atheism, all that went away. I know longer had the confusion and twisted thinking. I could see the bible stories as someone else's mythology, and that never bothered me.

Mr Clingford

26th June 2009, 07:46 AM

What were these bizarre scenarios?

pgwenthold

26th June 2009, 08:18 AM

What were these bizarre scenarios?

Like that God provided us with a book of his word, but only part of it was his word and a good chunk of it was completely contradicted by his own creation. So God was playing some sort of game, or was otherwise toying with us.

Another problem I was having was with the salad bar approach. I was wondering, if I am throwing out all these other parts of the bible, why am I accepting the other parts? It was after I moved on that I developed my "Christian Guide for Assessing the Bible":

1) If it is in the bible and is verifiably true, it is true
2) If it is in the bible and is verifiably false, it is either a mistranslation or a metaphor
3) If it is in the bible and is non-verifiable, it is true

(when I was believer, though, my #2 was "it is mythology")

Mr Clingford

26th June 2009, 08:39 AM

Like that God provided us with a book of his word, but only part of it was his word and a good chunk of it was completely contradicted by his own creation. So God was playing some sort of game, or was otherwise toying with us.

Another problem I was having was with the salad bar approach. I was wondering, if I am throwing out all these other parts of the bible, why am I accepting the other parts? It was after I moved on that I developed my "Christian Guide for Assessing the Bible":

1) If it is in the bible and is verifiably true, it is true
2) If it is in the bible and is verifiably false, it is either a mistranslation or a metaphor
3) If it is in the bible and is non-verifiable, it is true

(when I was believer, though, my #2 was "it is mythology")
Thanks. What tradition did you escape from? Your examples are Bible-based scenarios are some people do indeed jump through all kinds of hoops to justify certain Bible approaches. I'm not sure why, but for a long time starting before I became a Xtian I have had problems with the Bible, including not believing a verse just because it is in the Bible.

shadron

26th June 2009, 09:10 AM

Not to be a stick in the mud, but what the heck kinda church does she attend, the Holy Church of Bad Taste?

I really, REALLY find that statement hard to believe.

I am a die-hard atheist, but have attended many a church in my day and known many a believer, and I have a hard time picturing any of them being so callous and simply "mean".

... and if they were, ... sheesh, what a crappy church.

And here I was, just about to ask the opposite question: what form of Christianity doesn't use the carrot-stick approach? I have heard that Unitarian/Universalists seem to approach that ideal, but almost all others believe in original sin, redemption through faith and/or good works, renunciation of the evil world, and promise of paradise in the next, for those who are in the elect/have grace/haven't screwed up too badly.

I can understand such a church as described in the OP. I suppose that makes me more like a atheistic fanatic, though not militant, however you want to see that. Like pgwenthold, my "descent" was an intellectual, rather than emotional one. I do know Christians who would act exactly that way. Read the chapter in Michener's Centennial about how the Pennsylvania Dutch can/did treat an outcast. I have personal experience with Mormons who have done really hateful things in the name of their religion. I have experienced Baptist groups (been a member at one time, actually) that have talked the way she describes her church people acting. Oh, yes, they are capable. Many may not like it or even themselves for following along with what the more militant do, but they'll follow and do their silent part, none the less.

Tricky

26th June 2009, 09:17 AM

I spent about two years pretending to be a full-on Christian as a precocious early teen. I was absolutely convinced – did Bible Study, praying, thought I was having special ‘insights’ into bits of the New Testament. It all passed and I was just left feeling faintly embarrassed. And that’s it. For the rest of the time that I can remember I was mainly not bothered one way or the other, and when confronted with religious arguments have usually found them either laughable, or offensive, or both.

This pretty well mirrors my experience.

Apparently fairly common (http://www.pixelopolis.com/lyrics/lyrics_song.php?site_id=1&song_id=101).

And by the way
I'm sure that you remember I was weird in school
I'm sorry about Jesus and all that you know
When I memorized the Bible I went overboard
And I prayed for your soul and you were saved, you said
And I was glad to tears you wouldn't go to hell
With everybody else
Oh I was weird in school
I'm sorry about Jesus and all that you know
I try to just forget about it all

Mr Clingford

26th June 2009, 09:25 AM

And here I was, just about to ask the opposite question: what form of Christianity doesn't use the carrot-stick approach? I have heard that Unitarian/Universalists seem to approach that ideal, but almost all others believe in original sin, redemption through faith and/or good works, renunciation of the evil world, and promise of paradise in the next, for those who are in the elect/have grace/haven't screwed up too badly.It depends on what you mean by carrot/ stick, though.

Actions, attitudes and thoughts have consequences on the character of an individual;selfless ones for the good and selfish for the bad - this is the Xtian message as I understand it. There is the carrot of acting selflessly in the building of good relationships and society and the stick of shallow aloneness for selfishness. Not the reward of heaven for believing the 'right' set of beliefs and the punishment of hell for the opposite.

MattusMaximus

26th June 2009, 10:23 AM

You're strange.

That's a good thing.

Thanks :)

Yes, being an atheist gives me comfort of a sort. OR rather: I dread the alternative. Life with an all-knowing god watching my every thought and move would be dreadful and pointless to me.I would live a life in the constant fear of eternal hell fire. But that I happen to like things better this way does in no way affect how things actually are - may I be right or wrong about them.

Well said.

linusrichard

26th June 2009, 10:30 AM

I don't find atheism comforting at all.

I'm comforted by the knowledge that I will almost certainly never be subjected to the pressures of holding elected office.

Lanzy

26th June 2009, 10:57 AM

I thought I would share this story as most people assume atheist to be cold unemotional people detached from others.

Who are these people? Why would anyone think this? Bet they're not atheists.

Tricky

26th June 2009, 11:49 AM

It depends on what you mean by carrot/ stick, though.

Actions, attitudes and thoughts have consequences on the character of an individual;selfless ones for the good and selfish for the bad - this is the Xtian message as I understand it. There is the carrot of acting selflessly in the building of good relationships and society and the stick of shallow aloneness for selfishness. Not the reward of heaven for believing the 'right' set of beliefs and the punishment of hell for the opposite.
That's pretty much the way I interpret it too, but though it seems noble on the surface, it really says that people would not do these selfless acts or build good relationships without that "carrot and stick". To me, that cheapens it. I feel that a person who is doing these things with the idea of reward or punishment is not doing them for the right reason.

By comparison, it is true, that for some kids, a promise of money for good grades works. Does it really install into them the love of learning? Don't you have more respect for kids who do it because they want to? Is Christianity a tool to inspire lazy and immoral people? That is certainly the way it is presented.

I Ratant

26th June 2009, 12:06 PM

I don't find atheism comforting at all.
.
It comes with the baggage that YOU are the master of your fate, and no one other than you is looking out for your best interests.
If one needs a "greater power" to dictate the direction one's life takes, then atheism can't provide that guidance.
It has to come from within.

I Ratant

26th June 2009, 12:08 PM

...
She doesn't need any trumpted wannabee expert in the mind of God feeding these emotions
.
Yeah, but religions are top-loaded with those who are eager to point out the punishment "god" delivers.

I Ratant

26th June 2009, 12:10 PM

...

The question to me is as pointless as asking what the benefits of belief in gravity are:
...

.
Gravity, like the gods, cares nothing for who believes in it.
But gravity is demonstrable.

Elizabeth I

28th June 2009, 10:27 AM

kurious_kathy

28th June 2009, 02:53 PM

For me, it came when I faced the issues of trauma in my past. Either the universe is uncaring, dieties can't do much or you are faced with why an all powerful and loving diety would let you suffer.

No one likes suffering DD but we all have had to suffer at times in many different ways. What I want to know is why we humans sometimes blame God (or deny him) rather than sometimes ourselves or even the god of this world, Satan? See how many have turned from God because of suffering and pain and the really sad thing is when this happens people lose and Satan wins.

Riddle me this, what is a mans soul worth to you? Atheists might find a certain amount of freedom in the now, but what about eternity? Is it really worth denying Christ and losing your soul??

Sun Countess

28th June 2009, 03:07 PM

No one likes suffering DD but we all have had to suffer at times in many different ways. What I want to know is why we humans sometimes blame God (or deny him) rather than sometimes ourselves or even the god of this world, Satan? See how many have turned from God because of suffering and pain and the really sad thing is when this happens people lose and Satan wins. Suffering happens in this world, and there are no supernatural battles being waged in the background. Why is it a comfort to you to think of this battle between God and Satan, where humans are just pawns caught in the middle? Wouldn't it be more comforting to spend your time and energy alleviating a smidgeon of actual suffering in this world? You worry about saving people's souls, when what they really need is clean water, food, medicine, and safety.

Riddle me this, what is a mans soul worth to you? Atheists might find a certain amount of freedom in the now, but what about eternity? Is it really worth denying Christ and losing your soul??
What eternity? What souls? What are you doing in the here and now to help those suffering today? Wringing your hands and telling people that things will be better after they die honestly doesn't help anything. A bible can't replace clean drinking water.

RoboTimbo

28th June 2009, 03:15 PM

Is it really worth denying Christ and losing your soul??

I find it preferable to losing my brain. At least we know brains exist in most people.

elbe

28th June 2009, 03:18 PM

My "conversion" was, apparently, much more mundane than most. When I was young I used logic and my understanding of science to stop believing in santa. Years later I successfully managed to do the same to with god(s). What a boring childhood I had.

Scazon

28th June 2009, 03:20 PM

What makes you think you should derive comfort from your beliefs? An assumption that there's a good fairy behind it all? (call it god, or whatever). Facts are there, wishful thinking is childish. Cancer doesn't care, only people do- and not many of them.

The real power of basing your worldview on biology rather than theology is that it explains so much more- why we get ill (not because of Satan or God), why we get old and wrinkly, why the death of the individual is not just inevitable but a Good Thing (the price of being what we are)... the list goes on.

It's just part of growing up.

Gate2501

28th June 2009, 03:34 PM

What I want to know is why we humans sometimes blame God (or deny him) rather than sometimes ourselves or even the god of this world, Satan?

Not to derail here, but where in your Mythos is it expressed that "Satan is the god of this world"?

I'm honestly asking, I don't think that I have ever heard him/her/it referred to in that manner.

RandFan

28th June 2009, 03:49 PM

What I want to know is why we humans sometimes blame God... If god is able to end suffering and wants to end suffering then why is there suffering?

If you could end suffering would you?

Foster Zygote

28th June 2009, 04:17 PM

elbe

28th June 2009, 04:22 PM

Second, what if I give my heart to Jesus and then die to discover that I should have given my heart to Vishnu?

Do both! Try to spread the body around between the different deities. Is there a greek god who wants your brain? A norse god who wants your tongue? An egtyptian god who wants your spleen? The more the merrier! Guarantee yourself the best possible afterlife experience by making friends with as many gods as possible.

Elizabeth I

28th June 2009, 05:09 PM

No one likes suffering DD but we all have had to suffer at times in many different ways. What I want to know is why we humans sometimes blame God (or deny him) rather than sometimes ourselves or even the god of this world, Satan? See how many have turned from God because of suffering and pain and the really sad thing is when this happens people lose and Satan wins.

Riddle me this, what is a mans soul worth to you? Atheists might find a certain amount of freedom in the now, but what about eternity? Is it really worth denying Christ and losing your soul??

Yep, definitely a slow learner. You have been told repeatedly that very few people here believe they have a soul, much less worry about what might happen to it after they die. Yet you keep spouting your rote memorization lines and wondering why you don't seem to achieve anything.

In order to get people on this board to listen to you, you must first:

A. Present evidence - not your belief, not what your preacher said, not what the Bible says, evidence - that a soul exists.

B. Present evidence - not your belief, not what your preacher said, not what the Bible says, evidence - that the soul persists after physical death, and, more, that it persists throughout eternity.

C. Present evidence - not your belief, not what your preacher said, not what the Bible says, evidence - that Hell is real.

D. Present evidence - not your belief, not what your preacher said, not what the Bible says, evidence - that Heaven exists.

E. Present evidence - not your belief, not what your preacher said, not what the Bible says, evidence - that the course of action you espouse will lead to someone's spending a putative eternity in Heaven rather than Hell.

Skeptic Ginger

28th June 2009, 05:11 PM

Foster Zygote

28th June 2009, 08:28 PM

Do both! Try to spread the body around between the different deities. Is there a greek god who wants your brain? A norse god who wants your tongue? An egtyptian god who wants your spleen? The more the merrier! Guarantee yourself the best possible afterlife experience by making friends with as many gods as possible.

But what if I give my tallywacker to Aphrodite and it turns out that she's the only true god? I might have to spend eternity as a complete dick. Pascal never went into this much detail.

Toke

29th June 2009, 01:47 AM

I don't blame the Christian God for suffering any more than I blame Thor for lightning strikes.

Blaming Thor or complaining to him would be rather pointless.
Everyone knows that lightning is simple the sparks struck from the wheels of his goatchart as he ride across the sky.

It is not as if he is aiming or anything like that.

elbe

29th June 2009, 01:50 AM

Blaming Thor or complaining to him would be rather pointless.
Everyone knows that lightning is simple the sparks struck from the wheels of his goatchart as he ride across the sky.

It is not as if he is aiming or anything like that.

He could just not cruise around the neighborhood all night long. Some of us are trying to sleep here! Friggin' foreign gods!

paximperium

29th June 2009, 01:57 AM

He could just not cruise around the neighborhood all night long. Some of us are trying to sleep here! Friggin' foreign gods!
Sorry, Thor limits his rides to Europe...we have Thunderbirds in the US.

slingblade

29th June 2009, 06:24 AM

Not to be a stick in the mud, but what the heck kinda church does she attend, the Holy Church of Bad Taste?

I really, REALLY find that statement hard to believe.

I am a die-hard atheist, but have attended many a church in my day and known many a believer, and I have a hard time picturing any of them being so callous and simply "mean".

... and if they were, ... sheesh, what a crappy church.

Oh, yes, there are mean ones out there. Of course, that's just me telling you a thing and producing no evidence for you. Sorry. All I have are my experiences.

I can only tell you that I ran into far, far more of the "mean ones," who truly thought bad things only happened to Christians who were being punished by god. Sometimes they called them "tests," rather than "punishments," but it was more than implied that, either way, you brought it on yourself by being a bad person, a bad Christian.

Many didn't want to even get involved in my troubles, and not a few said I was enduring spousal abuse because I was a bad wife. Their proof? I was coming to church complaining about my husband. A good wife doesn't do that, but SUBMITS entirely to her husband's authority over her. That I complained showed I wasn't submissive. Wasn't waiting on god to solve my problems.

I'm atheist now, and married to a man who doesn't hit me, cheat on me, or abuse me. And I did all that on my own, with no one's help. Just me. Because it was just me, I know they were wrong all along. I guess they sleep fine at night.

Self-delusion helps with that a lot.

Dancing David

29th June 2009, 06:38 AM

arthwollipot

29th June 2009, 08:36 PM

kurious_kathy

29th June 2009, 08:44 PM

Suffering happens in this world, and there are no supernatural battles being waged in the background. Why is it a comfort to you to think of this battle between God and Satan, where humans are just pawns caught in the middle? Wouldn't it be more comforting to spend your time and energy alleviating a smidgeon of actual suffering in this world? You worry about saving people's souls, when what they really need is clean water, food, medicine, and safety.

What eternity? What souls? What are you doing in the here and now to help those suffering today? Wringing your hands and telling people that things will be better after th
ey die honestly doesn't help anything. A bible can't replace clean drinking water.

Yes people have many needs and in crisis we see many Chrisitan ministries rise up to try to meet the needs and I hope in everyday too. I myself do what I can from home around my town with peoples I know and meet. We also sponsor 2 World Vision kids and 1 Compassion kid every month in hopes it will help them get their needs met.

As far as eternity goes you are sadly mistaken as everyone will surely die and spend it either in heaven or hell. Why do you not believe the soul lives forever? People are indeed made up of mind, body and spirit! (FYI a persons spirit is comprised of 3 parts, your intellect, feelings, & will.) Just because you can't see your soul you certainly know it is a part of you, can't you see this?

slingblade

29th June 2009, 08:52 PM

Just because you can't see your soul you certainly know it is a part of you, can't you see this?

You say we can't see it, yet you ask us if we can't see it.

You must sit at your computer and laugh your ass off (between chewing your Doritos and slurping your Dew) at the gullible grown-ups you are able to torment by pretending to be an insane Fundie.

But I think your dad is calling you to mow the lawn, so you need to bestir your butt out of the basement and go get some sun.

And Mom made cookies! Aren't you a lucky boy?

kurious_kathy

29th June 2009, 08:54 PM

Not to derail here, but where in your Mythos is it expressed that "Satan is the god of this world"?

I'm honestly asking, I don't think that I have ever heard him/her/it referred to in that manner.

I have heard many Pastors put that statement in their teachings, and I think there are some statements in scripture that are pretty close to what this statement means. One reference that comes to mind is in the book of Revelation where we are told God will take back the deed to the earth which refers to God has let Satan have it for now but it is only temporary as the earths rightful owner (God) is sure to rule and reign here on earth. I myself am looking forward to this!

I just found another scripture reference so I thought I would add it here... 2 Corinthians 4:4 The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

kurious_kathy

29th June 2009, 09:00 PM

You say we can't see it, yet you ask us if we can't see it.

You must sit at your computer and laugh your ass off (between chewing your Doritos and slurping your Dew) at the gullible grown-ups you are able to torment by pretending to be an insane Fundie.

There you go again judging me. I would stop if I were you as God doesn't like that! And I can assure you I am of sound mind, it's you guys who state you must see or touch everything that is real is who have the real problem in my humble opinion. We do indeed live in a physical world but there is a very real unseen world called the spiritual world. If you want to convince someone it's not there you can't no matter how hard you try!

Hokulele

29th June 2009, 09:02 PM

There you go again judging me. I would stop if I were you as God doesn't like that!

And yet, you are allowed to judge President Obama.

Huh.

Steelmage

29th June 2009, 09:06 PM

Not to derail here, but where in your Mythos is it expressed that "Satan is the god of this world"?

I'm honestly asking, I don't think that I have ever heard him/her/it referred to in that manner.

It says in the Bible (i do not remeber where), that Satan is lord of the earth.

I tried looking it up on the internet, sorry this is what I could find:

There are many names for Satan written in the Holy BIBLE... Here are just a few of Satan's names. "God of this world" "Ruler of this world" "Prince of this world" "He who deceives the whole world" and there are many other names for Satan.

John 12:31. Now is the judgment of this world; now the "Ruler of this world" will be cast out.
So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. Revelation 12:9

Jesus calls Satan the "Ruler of this World". Satan offered Jesus the Kingdom of the Earth in
Luke 4:6. "And the Devil said to him "Jesus",“All this authority I will give You, and their glory; for this "WORLD" has been delivered to me, and I give it to whomever I wish.

http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/TU9QFNMN6NERR574I

Foster Zygote

29th June 2009, 09:08 PM

...it's you guys who state you must see or touch everything that is real is who have the real problem in my humble opinion.
Here's the problem: You say that the spiritual world is arranged a certain way, but billions of other people claim that it is arranged in thousands of other ways that differ strikingly from your reports. Given that there is no way to objectively quantify this spirit world, why should we not conclude that your beliefs are just as erroneous as anyone else's?

We do indeed live in a physical world but there is a very real unseen world called the spiritual world. If you want to convince someone it's not there you can't no matter how hard you try!
You are mistaken. I once believed in a "spiritual world", as did many others on this forum. I encountered some pretty convincing arguments that led me toward the conclusion that spirit worlds are constructs of human imagination.

Steelmage

29th June 2009, 09:30 PM

Here's the problem: You say that the spiritual world is arranged a certain way, but billions of other people claim that it is arranged in thousands of other ways that differ strikingly from your reports. Given that there is no way to objectively quantify this spirit world, why should we not conclude that your beliefs are just as erroneous as anyone else's?

Yes, but Kathy's version is the correct version. ;)

slingblade

29th June 2009, 09:47 PM

There you go again judging me. I would stop if I were you as God doesn't like that!

Honey, if evolution put in triple overtime on you, you could still never be me in a million years. I'm just that much more advanced.

But do go on: what's god gonna do to me if I judge you again? Give it to me in detail. I like a good joke.

And I can assure you I am of sound mind, it's you guys who state you must see or touch everything that is real is who have the real problem in my humble opinion. We do indeed live in a physical world but there is a very real unseen world called the spiritual world. If you want to convince someone it's not there you can't no matter how hard you try!

I didn't say you weren't of sound mind.

I said you're a teenaged boy pretending to be a nutty fundie because you find it funny.

If Hoku actually meets you and tells me you're actually a nutty female fundie, I'll retract.

But my educated guess tells me you won't show up.

slingblade

29th June 2009, 09:53 PM

And yet, you are allowed to judge President Obama.

It turns God on when Kathy judges people. If the thunder this afternoon sounds more like "fapfapfap," you'll know why....

Sun Countess

29th June 2009, 10:02 PM

We do indeed live in a physical world but there is a very real unseen world called the spiritual world. If you want to convince someone it's not there you can't no matter how hard you try!
I'm not actually trying to convince you that there's no spirit world. If it provides you comfort to think of this soap opera happening in another dimension, with horrible evil humans from this physical dimension acting the role of unwitting pawns, then go right ahead.

All I want to get you to understand is that you can't convince me of the existence of this unseen spirit world. There's no evidence for it anywhere. It's not inborn in my heart, and I have no reason to believe the scam artists out there who try to convince me of its existence.

No souls.

No heaven.

No hell.

No God.

No Satan.

No Eternity.

Not a shred of existence for any of it in this physical universe. Just a bunch of different stories told by different people across time and culture to answer unanswerable questions, control their fellow humans, and make money. You think you stumbled upon the one correct story, and that the people who tell this story have noble reasons, and all the power, money, and control over people's lives was just an unwelcome byproduct of THE TRUTH.

I will say I'm thrilled to hear you're doing something to stop suffering in the here and now. I hope it's done without strings attached.

slingblade

29th June 2009, 10:06 PM

I will say I'm thrilled to hear you're doing something to stop suffering in the here and now. I hope it's done without strings attached.

Well, no strings, but there are three nails involved....

:p

Hokulele

29th June 2009, 10:08 PM

It turns God on when Kathy judges people. If the thunder this afternoon sounds more like "fapfapfap," you'll know why....

Chardonnay just isn't good for the nasal passages...

kurious_kathy

29th June 2009, 10:29 PM

And yet, you are allowed to judge President Obama.

Huh.

I have a strong opinion of Obama that is not good but I am entitled to my opinion, aren't I? I am not judging him as a I want him to go to hell for his evil, that would indeed be wrong and playing God. Only God knows the heart, but we can be fruit inspectors and to me our President needs Jesus just as much as everyone else. He could be a wonderful president, but not without Jesus as he is letting his carnal sinful nature rule his descisions which is thus the basis of spiritual warfare. We all struggle with the fleshly nature, but if you have Jesus we have victory over sin and thus we live our life accordingly.

If I saw a Godly man in office I would be so thankful, but I am afraid I do not at this time. Who knows maybe God will save him and I know there would be some big changes if that were to happen. I also pray for the US Senate to have some godly men, but I'm afraid there are very few if any. God help us! I love America and I pray for some miracles here as we surely could use some, as does this whole world.

And as for the OP topic how do atheists find any comfort denying their creator? To me this is something too impossible to do.

Sun Countess

29th June 2009, 10:34 PM

Hokulele

29th June 2009, 10:59 PM

I have a strong opinion of Obama that is not good but I am entitled to my opinion, aren't I?

And slingblade is equally entitled to her opinion of you and what you have posted here.

I am not judging him as a I want him to go to hell for his evil, that would indeed be wrong and playing God.

His evil? That isn't judging him? I would hate to see what you are like in judgmental mode.

Only God knows the heart, but we can be fruit inspectors and to me our President needs Jesus just as much as everyone else. He could be a wonderful president, but not without Jesus as he is letting his carnal sinful nature rule his descisions which is thus the basis of spiritual warfare. We all struggle with the fleshly nature, but if you have Jesus we have victory over sin and thus we live our life accordingly.

It must be so sad to constantly live in fear.

If I saw a Godly man in office I would be so thankful, but I am afraid I do not at this time.

Judgement.

Who knows maybe God will save him and I know there would be some big changes if that were to happen.

Judgement.

I also pray for the US Senate to have some godly men, but I'm afraid there are very few if any.

Judgement.

God help us! I love America and I pray for some miracles here as we surely could use some, as does this whole world.

How do you know that Obama's presidency isn't a miracle? Isn't that a judgement?

And as for the OP topic how do atheists find any comfort denying their creator? To me this is something too impossible to do.

What creator? I haven't seen any evidence that there is anything to deny.

kurious_kathy

29th June 2009, 11:05 PM

And how many of those "Godly men" have cheated on their wives, taken bribes, or lied to the public?

Tell me, kathy, do you think it's possible to be a decent human being if you haven't accepted Jesus? Are there decent atheists, decent muslims, decent Buddhists, decent Jews, etc.? Do you trust anyone who isn't a Christian? And even if they claim to be Christian, do you still trust them if they don't "look" Christian?

Now your throwing a punch. Yes many professing Christians have fallen when tempted, but if they were truly Gods they eventually repented and got back into fellowship. I for years believed in Christ but I did not follow so I was guilty of falling myself until Jesus intervened and got me back on the right road. The straight and narrow is the only road for me now and forever.

And I do not doubt there are loving caring people all over the globe, but outside of Christ we do it in our own strength which is called self righteousness which will not get anyone into heaven. Our own self righteousness is as filthy rags is what scripture says. All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. If we want to do some good in this world and make a real difference think about this, only what we do in Christ will last for eternity. I want a real legacy, don't you?

kurious_kathy

29th June 2009, 11:12 PM

It must be so sad to constantly live in fear.

What creator? I haven't seen any evidence that there is anything to deny.

Hokulele, God is everywhere and even the earth he created reveals his majesty. How can you deny him when he even reveals himself through nature? Mannnn you even live in Maui!

As for living in fear, YES I fear God!, and in scripture we are told this is the beginning of true wisdom. It would do everyone good to have a healthy fear of God.

kurious_kathy

29th June 2009, 11:22 PM

If god is able to end suffering and wants to end suffering then why is there suffering?

If you could end suffering would you?

How am I suppose to answer this? Atheists find comfort by just denying what I know is the truth of God.

Yes I hate suffering so in my want to feel better now flesh I would, but God is allowing suffering in this world and he promises he is doing something with it. Remember Jobs story? Man he went through it and it was all to get him past being self righteousness to show him his need for God to save him. Yes it wasn't nice for Job to suffer like that, but God's perspective is always about eternity. He cares way more about our character than our comforts, dang it. Believe me I do not like suffering anymore than any of you, but I find hope in the promises of God which I could only pray for you as well.

What matters most in this life is knowing Jesus. Nobody else is worthy of honor and praise as he died in our place to redeem this lost world. I just hope you can see him for who he really is and get past all this other stuff that just seems to blind you from accepting his love for you!

slingblade

29th June 2009, 11:28 PM

So, "Kathy," do you just come here when the world server goes down and you get kicked from Naxx right in the middle of Patchwerk? Do the other guys make fun of your gear score, and your epic Jenkins wipes?

realpaladin

29th June 2009, 11:35 PM

How am I suppose to answer this? Atheists find comfort by just denying what I know is the truth of God.

Yes I hate suffering so in my want to feel better now flesh I would, but God is allowing suffering in this world and he promises he is doing something with it. Remember Jobs story? Man he went through it and it was all to get him past being self righteousness to show him his need for God to save him. Yes it wasn't nice for Job to suffer like that, but God's perspective is always about eternity. He cares way more about our character than our comforts, dang it. Believe me I do not like suffering anymore than any of you, but I find hope in the promises of God which I could only pray for you as well.

What matters most in this life is knowing Jesus. Nobody else is worthy of honor and praise as he died in our place to redeem this lost world. I just hope you can see him for who he really is and get past all this other stuff that just seems to blind you from accepting his love for you!

You are not for real are you? This is too much like a caricature...

Perhaps others can vouch for you, but I just call this 'trolling', and a good one at that. But just a bit too over the top to be real.

yy2bggggs

29th June 2009, 11:36 PM

I have a strong opinion of Obama that is not good but I am entitled to my opinion, aren't I?
Yes, Kathy, you're entitled to your own opinions. But you're not entitled to own truth.

slingblade

29th June 2009, 11:39 PM

Kathy, is the President a U.S. citizen?

Hokulele

29th June 2009, 11:42 PM

Hokulele, God is everywhere and even the earth he created reveals his majesty. How can you deny him when he even reveals himself through nature? Mannnn you even live in Maui!

Yep. The one state in the US where Christians do not make up the majority of the population. There are more people here who are Buddhists, Pagans, Jews, Muslims, ancestor worshippers, and *gasp* even atheists than who believe in your version of god.

Apparently your version of god isn't very good at revealing itself through nature here.

As for living in fear, YES I fear God!, and in scripture we are told this is the beginning of true wisdom. It would do everyone good to have a healthy fear of God.

I heartily and completely disagree. Fear is the absolute worst foundation for a relationship. I would much prefer to live in a democracy than in a dictatorship. I would much prefer to live in a marriage based on love, trust, and partnership than on abuse and terror. I would much prefer to live in an egoless universe to be explored with curiosity and the pure joy of discovery than in one ruled by a whimsical tyrant.

In other words, you can take your petty, jealous, bigoted, homophobic, misogynistic, cruel god and stuff it.

slingblade

29th June 2009, 11:47 PM

Mannnn you even live in Maui!

Ok, I'll start the pool.

I've got $100 on 16-year-old male.
And another $50 on "basement bedroom."

realpaladin

30th June 2009, 12:47 AM

Ok, I'll start the pool.

I've got $100 on 16-year-old male.
And another $50 on "basement bedroom."

You are on!

I call you with a mid-thirties single guy in a 1-bedroom apartment thinking he is very clever outfoxing the 'smarties'.

And the pizza-delivery guy does not like him.

slingblade

30th June 2009, 01:11 AM

You are on!

I call you with a mid-thirties single guy in a 1-bedroom apartment thinking he is very clever outfoxing the 'smarties'.

And the pizza-delivery guy does not like him.

Oh, that last part would apply to mine, as well, except his pizza delivery guy is the geeky kid who only got his car first cuz he has a job! Loser!

SezMe

30th June 2009, 04:06 AM

I might have to spend eternity as a complete dick.
Given that you'll be met by 72 virgins, that is bad exactly how? :)

Wally

30th June 2009, 04:39 AM

Ok, I'll start the pool.

I've got $100 on 16-year-old male.
And another $50 on "basement bedroom."

I think it's Sara Palin when she gets bored.

chillzero

30th June 2009, 06:01 AM

And as for the OP topic how do atheists find any comfort denying their creator? To me this is something too impossible to do.

Here's the thing.
This thread was about atheists, and what comfort they find in their beliefs. You came in here and asked why people blame god. Only deists can do that - not atheists. What we are discussing here is not blaming any god, but how we find improvement in our lives from the absence of any god. There is no god to blame, so such a question is wildly off topic.

We take responsibility for our own actions, and do not seek to project on any god nor do we surrender the effort required to find solutions to our problems ourselves. While it can be daunting, it is comforting in that it reduces the 'unknown' element of things that cause us stress and fear. we don't need to fear that if we aren't learning the right lesson, or praying the right way, that we will face further 'punishment' for things outside our control.

My own experiences were about 20%christians and 80% new age people, and I wrote about it a while ago:
http://www.ukskeptics.com/cms/blaming-the-victim/

People like k_k drove me almost to suicide and actually took time and effort to really make it clear to me that they felt I was entirely to blame for a lot of terrible things that happened in my life, and that by struggling to know how to deal with them I was drawing negativity down onto everyone around me and affecting ('infecting') those I loved most.

Call it karma ... call it god's love ... call it whatever you like. The absence of it is much better than having to live with it.

RoboTimbo

30th June 2009, 06:16 AM

but we can be fruit inspectors

I think this is the premise under which Slingblade is allowed to judge you.

Rasmus

30th June 2009, 06:27 AM

I think this is the premise under which Slingblade is allowed to judge you.

I think I am allowed to judge people - period. KK is a cheap hypocrite at best. (That was a judgement. I have no problem making it and I am not claiming that I shouldn't be judging her, or, worse, that it's notz actually what I am doing.)

Sun Countess

30th June 2009, 09:00 AM

And I do not doubt there are loving caring people all over the globe, but outside of Christ we do it in our own strength which is called self righteousness which will not get anyone into heaven. Our own self righteousness is as filthy rags is what scripture says. All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. If we want to do some good in this world and make a real difference think about this, only what we do in Christ will last for eternity. I want a real legacy, don't you?
So let me get this straight. A Christian doing a good act is righteous, but a non-Christian performing the same act is self-righteous? Does it matter to the child who's getting a vaccination or a bowlful of food?

And if a Christian is only doing something to score righteous brownie points with god, I'm sorry, but those motives seem less pure than an atheist who's just trying to do what he or she can to relieve someone else's suffering. How can you call an atheist self-righteous when he or she is reaching out to others? He/She isn't worried about her own soul or eternity, but about the here and now.

I'd still like to know what sins I've supposedly committed, other than being born a filthy disgusting human. If I fall short of the "glory of god" then I've succeeded, because that dude is one jealous, evil prick. Sorry that I think that women are equal to men, or that I haven't enslaved anyone lately, or that I think all that raping of virgins and slaughter of innocent babies should be avoided. I won't give him my first-born son either, no matter how nicely he asks.

As far as leaving a real legacy, I have no aspirations of doing anything life-shattering, but I hope to leave behind some decent human beings, along with playing a small part in making the lives of others fractionally better through my contributions to health organizations, NGOs, environmental causes, and local kids and animal groups. I can only do so much, but at least I'm trying every day.

Mashuna

30th June 2009, 09:05 AM

As far as eternity goes you are sadly mistaken as everyone will surely die and spend it either in heaven or hell. Why do you not believe the soul lives forever? People are indeed made up of mind, body and spirit! (FYI a persons spirit is comprised of 3 parts, your intellect, feelings, & will.) Just because you can't see your soul you certainly know it is a part of you, can't you see this?

Kathy, does it concern you that you have, at most, two-thirds of a soul?

Toke

30th June 2009, 09:16 AM

Kathy, does it concern you that you have, at most, two-thirds of a soul?

Do women have real souls, i mean like men?

elbe

30th June 2009, 09:21 AM

Do women have real souls, i mean like men?

Well, Adam was created in god's image, Eve was created just to keep him company, like all the animals.

Toke

30th June 2009, 09:29 AM

Well, Adam was created in god's image, Eve was created just to keep him company, like all the animals.

I throught so, them goodless feminist have gotten way out of hand with all that equality stuff.

Beerina

30th June 2009, 02:41 PM

I don't find atheism comforting at all.

Are you an atheist?

In any case, I find atheism much more comforting than that there exists some god who's going to throw most people into Hell, whatever that means, for refusing to believe in him or worship him or feed the poor he lets remain poor, or whatever.

Indeed, it's hard to distinguish that situation from the worst of all possible worlds. The only thing worse than torturing most people for ever and ever is the degenerate world where the god tortures everybody for ever and ever.

ClassyElf

30th June 2009, 03:58 PM

Remember Jobs story? Man he went through it and it was all to get him past being self righteousness to show him his need for God to save him. Yes it wasn't nice for Job to suffer like that, but God's perspective is always about eternity. He cares way more about our character than our comforts, dang it. Believe me I do not like suffering anymore than any of you, but I find hope in the promises of God which I could only pray for you as well.

I'm sorry, but are you actually trying to rationalize the act of torturing somebody to make them love you?

JFrankA

30th June 2009, 04:49 PM

As for living in fear, YES I fear God!, and in scripture we are told this is the beginning of true wisdom. It would do everyone good to have a healthy fear of God

This always made me wonder. What's so great about fearing someone who supposedly loves you? If it's the same thing as "fearing your parents" then that makes me wonder. If a person is being good simply because they fear someone more powerful than they are, then it seems to me that that person is being more devious than ever.

In other words, the only reason that person is being good is because they don't want to be punished or they want something special. Like a little kid who wants the brand new shiny fire engine so he decides not to hit his brother today.

I don't steal, I don't hurt others, I help people in trouble, not because I fear something more powerful than me, but because I want to. I don't expect retrubution if I don't be good, and I don't expect a reward if I am.

So it seems to me, if being a "good Christian" means that that person has a "fear of god" then that person is putting on a false front so they either don't get into trouble or get that reward. The fear causes one to lie to both the guy that is feared and one's self.

Please explain to me why is fear that important? Why is it wise?

(I mean no offense by this to anyone, just something that never made sense to me...)

paximperium

30th June 2009, 05:00 PM

This always made me wonder. What's so great about fearing someone who supposedly loves you? If it's the same thing as "fearing your parents" then that makes me wonder. If a person is being good simply because they fear someone more powerful than they are, then it seems to me that that person is being more devious than ever.

Battered Person Syndrome
ICD9 code 995.81 [1] (http://icd9.chrisendres.com/index.php?action=search&srchtext=995.81) shows the syndrome as including "battered person/man/spouse syndrome NEC" and any person presenting with identified physical descriptors rather than psychological descriptors falls under the general heading of "Adult physical abuse", classified under "Injury and Poisoning" [2] (http://icd9.chrisendres.com/index.php?action=child&recordid=7942). In lay terms, this is a reference to any person who, because of constant and severe domestic violence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_violence) usually involving physical abuse (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physical_abuse) by a partner, becomes depressed and unable to take any independent action that would allow him or her to escape the abuse. The condition explains why abused people often do not seek assistance from others, fight their abuser, or leave the abusive situation. Sufferers have low self-esteem (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-esteem), and often believe that the abuse is their fault. Such persons usually refuse to press criminal charges against their abuser, and refuse all offers of help, often becoming aggressive or abusive to others who attempt to offer assistance. Often sufferers will even seek out their very abuser for comfort shortly after an incident of abuse.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battered_person_syndrome

JFrankA

30th June 2009, 05:05 PM

Battered Person Syndrome
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battered_person_syndrome

Oh.

Well.

Thank you, Paximperium. That is certainly one explaination! :)

slingblade

30th June 2009, 06:01 PM

Said syndrome doesn't magically or necessarily go away when the abuser is removed, either. For some, it's the state in which they will live the rest of their lives, even if no abuse is ever present again.

Mr Clingford

1st July 2009, 01:45 AM

That's pretty much the way I interpret it too, but though it seems noble on the surface, it really says that people would not do these selfless acts or build good relationships without that "carrot and stick". To me, that cheapens it. I feel that a person who is doing these things with the idea of reward or punishment is not doing them for the right reason.

By comparison, it is true, that for some kids, a promise of money for good grades works. Does it really install into them the love of learning? Don't you have more respect for kids who do it because they want to? Is Christianity a tool to inspire lazy and immoral people? That is certainly the way it is presented.

Perhaps I didn't express myself that clearly (it's not unusual...) but that isn't quite what I meant.

If someone acts selflessly, surely by definition they are not doing it for a reward? They are acting selflessly because that is what comes to them. I think, though, that the road to this place is very very difficult for many (including me) and requires a lot of trying at times and at first might involve good acts not because they come naturally but because one understands that it is better in the long run and is better because a selfless person is a wonderful thing.

Profwag

1st July 2009, 09:20 AM

And I do not doubt there are loving caring people all over the globe, but outside of Christ we do it in our own strength which is called self righteousness which will not get anyone into heaven.

KK, I'm athiest and according to you, I'm self-righteous because I like helping people? I'm self-righteous because I don't believe in killing innocent people? I'm self-righteous because I believe stealing is wrong? I'm self-righteous because I don't believe it's right to want to sleep with my neighbor's wife? Sorry, but that's called having morals. I have never been so turned off from christianity as I have been reading these kinds of posts.

Shalamar

1st July 2009, 09:35 AM

I would think that an Atheist who does good works, simpply because they WANT to, is better than a Christian who does good work because they're trying to score brownie points.

If I were god, and seeing this, I would happily accept Atheists to heaven. After all, they're still going good work, and purely out of the goodness of their heart. Unlike the Christians who do it because they're afraid of being punished.

slingblade

1st July 2009, 06:48 PM

Kathy doesn't get that much of religion in general is about keeping you scared and helpless, dependent on others who have power over you.

They call having your own brain and using it "self-righteousness," so that you will stay too scared to think. There's a damned good reason we're supposed to think of ourselves as sheep being led by a Good Shepherd. It keeps us in that herd-mentality, easily controlled, easily parted from our logic, reason, and money.

You have to feel sorry for them. I know I do.

Tricky

1st July 2009, 08:25 PM

Perhaps I didn't express myself that clearly (it's not unusual...) but that isn't quite what I meant.
Oh, I knew what you meant, Mr. C. but I was taking advantage of your phrasing to make a point. Apologies for using you as a foil.;)

If someone acts selflessly, surely by definition they are not doing it for a reward? They are acting selflessly because that is what comes to them. I think, though, that the road to this place is very very difficult for many (including me) and requires a lot of trying at times and at first might involve good acts not because they come naturally but because one understands that it is better in the long run and is better because a selfless person is a wonderful thing.

What you are talking about is morality based on what some call "Enlightened self-interest", and it is a principle to which I most assiduously ascribe. In truth, we all do things because they make us feel good, i.e. "self-interest". The difference in my mind is how much thought, the "enlightenment" we put into what makes us feel good. For some, it is the thought of going to heaven. Maybe even getting some other people there. For me, that is a nice thought, but since we have no evidence that heaven even exists, then it is a somewhat pointless gesture. It certainly does little good for the living people on earth or their descendants. It less enlightened than a more broad-thinking empathy that encompasses all of humanity; An enlightenment that doesn't nitpick theological details, but applies to all kinds and creeds.

Sure, I give money to good causes (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=4864570#post4864570)because it makes me feel good, but mostly because I have empathy. And not just for people living today, but for the generations ahead. That way, the species I care most about will be able to enjoy a better life in the only place where life is known to exist. That is self interest, but it is long-term self-interest and it is for all of the species, not just "me and my family". I like to think of that as "enlightened".

Do I feel smug about it? Well, if you want to split hairs, yes. I think proud is the better word.

kurious_kathy

4th July 2009, 01:04 AM

I'm sorry, but are you actually trying to rationalize the act of torturing somebody to make them love you?

The way I understand it now is because God is Holy so he must punish sin, but the gift of God is salvation and forgiveness for sins if you believe in his son. Because of Gods grace he made a way out of eternal damantion, no one has to go to hell if they accept Jesus! Can't you see the beauty in the sacrifice Jesus made to pay our debt? I love him because he first loved me.

a_unique_person

4th July 2009, 01:06 AM

god don't give a **** about anyone, good or bad.

kurious_kathy

4th July 2009, 01:15 AM

KK, I'm athiest and according to you, I'm self-righteous because I like helping people? I'm self-righteous because I don't believe in killing innocent people? I'm self-righteous because I believe stealing is wrong? I'm self-righteous because I don't believe it's right to want to sleep with my neighbor's wife? Sorry, but that's called having morals. I have never been so turned off from christianity as I have been reading these kinds of posts.

I am sorry if I am coming across wrong to you as this is surely not my intent. All I know is all of us are sinners no matter how good we think we are.

I also believe if we love others God sees that we care about the things he cares about too so perhaps he does honor our loving others more than anything else. Scripture says love is from God, and she/or he who has loved much is forgiven much.

I am glad you have good morals, I just hope you can see it's because God put that in you. Our sense of right or wrong is not just a coinsidence or of ourselves, God built a moral code into our being.

kurious_kathy

4th July 2009, 01:18 AM

god don't give a **** about anyone, good or bad.

How can you even make that statement? If you created someone wouldn't you love them no matter what? God loves everyone, but he does not like sin and he must deal with it!

kurious_kathy

4th July 2009, 01:27 AM

Here's the thing.
This thread was about atheists, and what comfort they find in their beliefs. You came in here and asked why people blame god. Only deists can do that - not atheists. What we are discussing here is not blaming any god, but how we find improvement in our lives from the absence of any god. There is no god to blame, so such a question is wildly off topic.

We take responsibility for our own actions, and do not seek to project on any god nor do we surrender the effort required to find solutions to our problems ourselves. While it can be daunting, it is comforting in that it reduces the 'unknown' element of things that cause us stress and fear. we don't need to fear that if we aren't learning the right lesson, or praying the right way, that we will face further 'punishment' for things outside our control.

My own experiences were about 20%christians and 80% new age people, and I wrote about it a while ago:
http://www.ukskeptics.com/cms/blaming-the-victim/

People like k_k drove me almost to suicide and actually took time and effort to really make it clear to me that they felt I was entirely to blame for a lot of terrible things that happened in my life, and that by struggling to know how to deal with them I was drawing negativity down onto everyone around me and affecting ('infecting') those I loved most.

Call it karma ... call it god's love ... call it whatever you like. The absence of it is much better than having to live with it.

Well chillzero I myself was very New Age in my spiritual beliefs after falling away from church for many years so I certainly understand both sides of these beliefs, but Christianity was the only belief that I found the truth that set me fee. How can being forgiven by Christ be a bad thing?

RandFan

4th July 2009, 01:49 AM

I am sorry if I am coming across wrong to you as this is surely not my intent. All I know is all of us are sinners no matter how good we think we are. Hardly a reason to punish someone for time and all eternity.

I also believe if we love others God sees that we care about the things he cares about too so perhaps he does honor our loving others more than anything else. Scripture says love is from God, and she/or he who has loved much is forgiven much. I thought you were either saved or you weren't?

I am glad you have good morals, I just hope you can see it's because God put that in you.For the sake of his victims (many of them children) it's too bad god didn't put good morals in Dennis Rader (BTK killer) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dennis_Rader). God is sure one arbitrary and capricious guy. He gives free will to bastards like BTK but he lets bastards like BTK take the free will away from children.

Our sense of right or wrong is not just a coinsidence or of ourselves, God built a moral code into our being.Morality is well understood from an evolutionary perspective. See The Selfish Gene and The Science of Good and Evil. Reciprocal altruism can be modeled by game theory and it can be found in wild animals. We can make predictions based on evolutionary psychology and confirm those theories. We did and they have.

RandFan

4th July 2009, 01:51 AM

How can being forgiven by Christ be a bad thing?What reason does anyone have to believe that it is true. Most of my Mormon friends are happy and free and they know that god told them the truth and set them free.

a_unique_person

4th July 2009, 01:57 AM

How can you even make that statement?

Quite easily. The evidence is everywhere when you open your eyes.

RandFan

4th July 2009, 02:10 AM

If you created someone wouldn't you love them no matter what?I certainly wouldn't punish anyone eternally for a finite sin. I'm just not that kind of monster.

God loves everyone, but he does not like sin and he must deal with it!What does that even mean? Did god sin when he killed the firstborn of Egypt? Did god sin when he drowned innocent animals and children in the flood? Did god sin when he told Abraham to kill his son?

Of course he doesn't exist but if he did then "sin" would have no meaning. Sin would simply be the things we can't do that god can do and get away with.

Your god is a little god who took the time to command people not to worship other god's to assuage his ego ("I god am a jealous god) but for some odd reason he couldn't take the time to tell them to boil their water. This one act would have saved many people the suffering of having lost a loved one. Odd choice for a merciful diety.

If I were to invent a god I would leave out all the petty jelousy and wrath and killing and genocide. I would never play a game with a father who loved his son (Abraham). Hell, and I'm not god.

Fiona

4th July 2009, 04:03 AM

And that is the problem really: how could I possibly worship a god who has less of a sense of what is right and wrong than my mother ?

chillzero

4th July 2009, 05:56 AM

All I know is all of us are sinners no matter how good we think we are.

<snip>

I am glad you have good morals, I just hope you can see it's because God put that in you. Our sense of right or wrong is not just a coinsidence or of ourselves, God built a moral code into our being.

So ... what happened to all that free will, then?

JFrankA

4th July 2009, 06:14 AM

Let me explain it this way, Kathy. And I mean nothing mean or insulting here.
I am sorry if I am coming across wrong to you as this is surely not my intent. All I know is all of us are sinners no matter how good we think we are.

I find this statement very disturbing. We are not "sinners". We are human. See, if one calls herself/himself a "sinner" then right off the bat that person has condemned herself/himself. Everything that person does now is second-guessed. That person is most likely not only continuously feeling guilty or paranoid but unworthy.

The belief that we are all basically bad people, i.e. "sinners" is the staple of a lot religion. That kind of thinking is self-degrading, untrue and dangerous.

We are human. Being human gives us a individuals who range from completely uncaring to completely self-giving with sprinklings of both in between, and different reactions depending on certain circumstances.

I also believe if we love others God sees that we care about the things he cares about too so perhaps he does honor our loving others more than anything else. Scripture says love is from God, and she/or he who has loved much is forgiven much.

Is scripture saying that human beings are incapable of feeling love? That the love I feel towards my son, or my girlfriend, or my co-worker isn't from me? The only way I can feel and act on it is by a superior being "giving" it to me?

Maybe you don't believe that, but the very idea that it's taught is should be giving you warning bells ringing in your ears.

[quote]
I am glad you have good morals, I just hope you can see it's because God put that in you. Our sense of right or wrong is not just a coinsidence or of ourselves, God built a moral code into our being.

How do you know what god's moral code is? I've heard many different codes from many different sources. From "love everyone" to "that group of people there is evil".

Further, if the moral code is from god it's a general one. For example, if it's god's moral code to "honor your mother and father" (as I remember from my early days in catechism, this is a commandment - directly from god), then would I have to stand there and take a beating from my drunken father or else, if I fight back, I am breaking god's moral code? How about if the parents believe that a person is bad because of their skin color, yet the children know and like those people, are the children breaking god's moral code?

This can go on forever and it's only one moral code. There are many moral codes and everyone twists what is "god's moral code" into whatever they want it to be. For example, I can interpret scripture to say that god's moral code says it's alright to beat a slave.

I'm sorry, Kathy, but your whole post is one I find quite disturbing. I don't mean to pick on you, and I'm sorry if I made you feel that way, but it sounds like you believe that all humans are bad, and no one can be moral without god.

Both are very disturbing ideas and very untrue.

Dancing David

4th July 2009, 06:15 AM

The way I understand it now is because God is Holy so he must punish sin, but the gift of God is salvation and forgiveness for sins if you believe in his son. Because of Gods grace he made a way out of eternal damantion, no one has to go to hell if they accept Jesus! Can't you see the beauty in the sacrifice Jesus made to pay our debt? I love him because he first loved me.

Hmmm, then why make sin in the first place?

Can't you see the beauty of Innanna's death?
Or Damuzzi, when he stood in for Innanna?

Or the sacrifice of Tyr when he placed his hand in the mouth of the Fenris Wolf?

Dancing David

4th July 2009, 06:25 AM

How can you even make that statement? If you created someone wouldn't you love them no matter what? God loves everyone, but he does not like sin and he must deal with it!

So why was I raped by a stranger when i was six?

I see, because god loved me?
Or because god created evil?
Or because god doesn't care?

God either doesn't care, wanted there to be suffering or shares power with Satan.

Time Bandits
"Well, of course you didn't mean to steal it. I gave it to you, you silly man. And that! Do you really think I didn't know?"

"Sir?"

"I had to have some way of testing my handiwork. I think it turned out rather well, don't you?"

"Hmmm?"

"Evil turned out rather well, mm mm."

realpaladin

4th July 2009, 06:36 AM

So ... what happened to all that free will, then?

- You have the free will to comply!
- Cool, so now I just want to...
- You have the free will to comply!
- Yeah, ok, so I just want to...
- You. Have. The. Free. Will. To. Comply!
- Alright, allright, I got it, I comply to most of that stuff, but first I want to...
- You. Have. The. Free. Will. To. COMPLY!
- ...don't get angry now, I will comply just after I thought to...
- COMPLY! COMPLY! COMPLY!

Ladewig

4th July 2009, 07:47 AM

Kathy, I suggest you read and re-read the responses directed to you. You often wonder why you are received so poorly at this site. Making an effort to understand the positions of the people who took time to respond to you will go a long way towards your being accepted. Anything else will simply drive people further away from Christianity.

RoboTimbo

4th July 2009, 07:52 AM

Sun Countess

4th July 2009, 08:10 AM

Talk about being a battered spouse: I am sorry if I am coming across wrong to you as this is surely not my intent. All I know is all of us are sinners no matter how good we think we are.
No, we're not all sinners. Just like abused wives are not all stupid, or worthless, or anything else their abusers convince them that they are, who then go on to tell them that they don't want to punish them, but that they simply must....for their own good.

What is the meaning of sin if everything is sin in the eyes of your god? Basically, it's just being human. Human=sinner=deserving of eternal punishment. Why do you subscribe to such a horrible system? How do you not see that it's all a bunch of stuff that certain (very very evil) people made up to control other people?

I am glad you have good morals, I just hope you can see it's because God put that in you. Our sense of right or wrong is not just a coinsidence or of ourselves, God built a moral code into our being.
My good morals have nothing to do with your god. As RandFan mentioned, there is plenty of good science to back up human morality. Furthermore, I try to separate my morals from your god's shockingly horrible system of "what's right and wrong." For instance, I don't think it's okay to ask someone you love to prove that love by killing their son. Oh, I know that god said, "HA HA Just kidding" before Abraham put the knife to Isaac, and that made it all okay, right? If an abusive man asks his girlfriend to prove her love by killing her children, is he all right in the eyes of god? High fives all around! Well played, gentlemen!

And about all that commanding his victorious people to kill all the men, women, and children, but to keep all the virgin women for themselves so that they could rape them at their will.....yeah, I'm not into that kind of morality either. Is that how I'm falling short in the eyes of god? Should I maybe go around and kill a few firstborn sons to show god that I'm worthy of the morals he gave me?

I don't care what else you call your god, but to try to convince anyone that he's the source of love or morality is just crazy talk. He's the least loving, least moral character in the entire bible! And why would anyone create sin when he can't even stand to look at it? That's a whole lotta crazy in one character.

RandFan

4th July 2009, 02:11 PM

Fiona

4th July 2009, 02:23 PM

The way I understand it now is because God is Holy so he must punish sin,

Why must he? If he is omnipotent he doesn't have to do anything, surely. This is a curious notion and I have been thinking about what might constrain god in this way and what the implicatrions might be.

Perhaps he is forced to. Who forces him? A bigger, badder God? That would cause some problems for your position: This bigger, badder god has not told you how to avoid hell and you can have no confidence in promises made by the lesser god: he only follows orders. So you cannot avoid hell and you might as well forget it and get on with your life

Perhaps it is intrinsic to his nature? If that is the explanation he is like the scorpion in the fable of the scorpion and the frog: but that scorpion has no get out clause: he stings the frog and dooms them both because it is his nature. So if that is the explanation then the redemption can't happen. Since you take the view we are all sinners, we all go to hell: end of story. Might as well enjoy yourself now.

Or maybe he thinks he really should punish sin, because that is his conception of morality:if so he didn't really think this one through. Obviously his principles lead to outcomes he cannot stomach. Most people who find themselves in that position do one of three things:they stick to their principles and do what they believe to be right at whatever personal cost; they rethink their principles; or they make exceptions and tell themselves that they are not really breaking their principles in doing so. Well he didn't do the first or the second, like an honest mortal would do. We call those who do the third thing hypocrites, Kathy. So your god is a hypocrite. You going to put your trust in an entity like that? Might as well give up on him and find some better model for your life.

The only other thing I can think of is that someone made him an offer he couldn't refuse. Well everybody has their price, I suppose. And it is to be hoped that once bought he stays bought: but that is the problem there is it not? What will we do if he gets a better deal ?

yy2bggggs

4th July 2009, 04:26 PM

The way I understand it now is because God is Holy
Holy is Just-A-Word. Dig in and let's see what Holy means.
so he must punish sin [torture people to make them love him?],
So Holy means that God is not accountable for evils such as torture, so long as he has this cosmic excuse that the person rounded down on his tax forms, and God is just so good, he has to be infinitely horrid to sentient beings.

Funny how a mortal wouldn't be judged the same way for the same exact thing... that must be because the mortal is missing this "holyness" property that makes them still able to be good when they torture people infinitely for petty things.
but the gift of God is salvation and forgiveness for sins if you believe in his son.
Yep... that's how I understand it as well. God made a way out, but you have to believe all of this stuff in order to qualify. You have to believe that everyone deserves infinite torture for the slightest things.
Because of Gods grace he made a way out of eternal damantion, no one has to go to hell if they accept Jesus!
Which gives you a mental excuse for saying that God's not evil. I mean, after all, it's our choice whether or not to believe all of these silly things, so how can you blame God for this infinitely out of proportion infliction of evils upon sentient entities?
Can't you see the beauty in the sacrifice Jesus made to pay our debt?
Yes, I see the beauty of it. God gets off on blame for torture, and the punishment winds up effectively not being punishment for sins any more, but in essense, punishment for not believing this stuff. Furthermore, by pushing the punishment to infinite heights, delaying it until the very first opportunity for it to occur without providing any real evidence, and proclaiming said point in time to be too late to change your mind, you don't even need to have any actual punishment!

(ETA: The punishment is literally the maximum possible allowance of imagined punishment that cannot be proven otherwise for the purpose of getting you to believe... don't you find that suspicious in itself?)

Now I'll turn the question around. Don't you see the beauty of it?
I love him because he first loved me.
...by giving you the opportunity to love him instead of becoming a victim.

How touching!

pgwenthold

5th July 2009, 06:10 AM

Perhaps it is intrinsic to his nature? If that is the explanation he is like the scorpion in the fable of the scorpion and the frog: but that scorpion has no get out clause: he stings the frog and dooms them both because it is his nature. So if that is the explanation then the redemption can't happen. Since you take the view we are all sinners, we all go to hell: end of story. Might as well enjoy yourself now.

Moreover, if it "intrinsic to his nature" does that imply that God does not have free will?

Christians go on and on about how important it is that God gave us free will (of course, it's NOT important - we only need the appearance of free will), so it seems odd that God would not have it.

Elizabeth I

5th July 2009, 11:25 AM

There you go again judging me. I would stop if I were you as God doesn't like that!

So you know God's mind? The arrogance is breathtaking.

Remember Jobs story? Man he went through it and it was all to get him past being self righteousness to show him his need for God to save him.

************:

Job 1:1 There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil...

1:5 And it was so, when the days of their feasting were gone about, that Job sent and sanctified them, and rose up early in the morning, and offered burnt offerings according to the number of them all: for Job said, It may be that my sons have sinned, and cursed God in their hearts. Thus did Job continually.

Nothing about being self-righteous there. In fact, he worried that his children might have sinned and tried to do penance for them as well.

1:7 And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

1:8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

1:9 Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?

1:10 Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.

1:11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.

1:12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.

Your all-loving, all-merciful God agrees to let Job be tortured to win a bet. More than that, he puts this man who loves him into the hands of the adversary - God gives one of his own to the enemy. Do you know what we call people who don't back up their buddies under fire? Coward is the nicest word. And God wasn't even under fire. He just let the Devil's teasing get under his skin. Some deity you've got there - one little "nyah, nyah, nyah," and he gives up one of his most devoted worshippers.

What matters most in this life is knowing Jesus.

Job didn't know Jesus. He couldn't - he was dead long before Jesus showed up. So he loved God with all his heart and went through all that suffering for nothing? He's damned because he didn't know Jesus?

Yep, God is a great guy.

And are you sure you've read the Bible?

Ysidro

5th July 2009, 11:47 AM

- You have the free will to comply!
- Cool, so now I just want to...
- You have the free will to comply!
- Yeah, ok, so I just want to...
- You. Have. The. Free. Will. To. Comply!
- Alright, allright, I got it, I comply to most of that stuff, but first I want to...
- You. Have. The. Free. Will. To. COMPLY!
- ...don't get angry now, I will comply just after I thought to...
- COMPLY! COMPLY! COMPLY!

That's suppose to be read in a Dalek voice, right? :)

Profwag

5th July 2009, 06:03 PM

I am sorry if I am coming across wrong to you as this is surely not my intent. All I know is all of us are sinners no matter how good we think we are.

I also believe if we love others God sees that we care about the things he cares about too so perhaps he does honor our loving others more than anything else. Scripture says love is from God, and she/or he who has loved much is forgiven much.

I am glad you have good morals, I just hope you can see it's because God put that in you. Our sense of right or wrong is not just a coinsidence or of ourselves, God built a moral code into our being.

Sorry Kathy, but I don't see it's because God put them in me. I'm pretty confident it was my mother and father that taught me right from wrong. According to your post, if God puts morals in people, then he put morals in serial killers as well. Or, does your God "pick and choose" who he wants to be good people?

supercorgi

5th July 2009, 06:56 PM

How can you even make that statement? If you created someone wouldn't you love them no matter what? God loves everyone, but he does not like sin and he must deal with it!

OK KK, here is a question. I know you believe in God and place all your trust in God. So suppose, God spoke directly to you and told you to kill 10 babies. Ten Muslim babies because one of them could be the next Osama bin Laden. Would you do it? Would you do it because the Lord God your Creator told you this, or would you hesitate because you'd have to kill innocent, day-old babies? Would your unquestioning devotion to God win out, or your basic humanity? The clock is ticking...

a_unique_person

5th July 2009, 11:59 PM

So you know God's mind? The arrogance is breathtaking.

Only the pope can do that. :whistling

kurious_kathy

9th July 2009, 05:13 PM

OK KK, here is a question. I know you believe in God and place all your trust in God. So suppose, God spoke directly to you and told you to kill 10 babies. Ten Muslim babies because one of them could be the next Osama bin Laden. Would you do it? Would you do it because the Lord God your Creator told you this, or would you hesitate because you'd have to kill innocent, day-old babies? Would your unquestioning devotion to God win out, or your basic humanity? The clock is ticking...

What kind of question is that? I do not know why you are even trying to get me on this one? I do not even think I could have done what Abraham was asked to do so I guess I still question God too much in my own life.

I think killing is NOT something God likes either way or why would he say "Do Not Murder" as one of the Ten Commandments? If someone told me to kill someone I would more likely think it was Satan, not God, wouldn't you?

galla

9th July 2009, 05:20 PM

If someone told me to kill someone I would more likely think it was Satan, not God, wouldn't you?

Then why didn't Abraham assume it was Satan? Only a depraved or mentally ill person would assume such a commandment came from God.

And yet, Abraham did assume the commandment came from God not Satan (after all, how can anyone tell the difference?) - and not only that: according to the story, he guessed correctly!

To repeat the question: how can anyone tell the difference? God has told many people to do dreadful things, and neither the bible characters or the bible writers thought those commands came from Satan.

kurious_kathy

9th July 2009, 05:29 PM

Talk about being a battered spouse:
No, we're not all sinners. Just like abused wives are not all stupid, or worthless, or anything else their abusers convince them that they are, who then go on to tell them that they don't want to punish them, but that they simply must....for their own good.

What is the meaning of sin if everything is sin in the eyes of your god? Basically, it's just being human. Human=sinner=deserving of eternal punishment. Why do you subscribe to such a horrible system? How do you not see that it's all a bunch of stuff that certain (very very evil) people made up to control other people?

My good morals have nothing to do with your god. As RandFan mentioned, there is plenty of good science to back up human morality. Furthermore, I try to separate my morals from your god's shockingly horrible system of "what's right and wrong." For instance, I don't think it's okay to ask someone you love to prove that love by killing their son. Oh, I know that god said, "HA HA Just kidding" before Abraham put the knife to Isaac, and that made it all okay, right? If an abusive man asks his girlfriend to prove her love by killing her children, is he all right in the eyes of god? High fives all around! Well played, gentlemen!

And about all that commanding his victorious people to kill all the men, women, and children, but to keep all the virgin women for themselves so that they could rape them at their will.....yeah, I'm not into that kind of morality either. Is that how I'm falling short in the eyes of god? Should I maybe go around and kill a few firstborn sons to show god that I'm worthy of the morals he gave me?

I don't care what else you call your god, but to try to convince anyone that he's the source of love or morality is just crazy talk. He's the least loving, least moral character in the entire bible! And why would anyone create sin when he can't even stand to look at it? That's a whole lotta crazy in one character.

What about how God reveals himself in the New Testament, have you ever tried to know Jesus through the New Testsament and new covenant? He himself said there were problems with the old covenant that's why he made a new covenant through his own sacrfice. Jesus suffered for our sins, doesn't that mean anything to you? It sure does to me.

Paulhoff

9th July 2009, 06:40 PM

What about how God reveals himself in the New Testament, have you ever tried to know Jesus through the New Testsament and new covenant? He himself said there were problems with the old covenant that's why he made a new covenant through his own sacrfice. Jesus suffered for our sins, doesn't that mean anything to you? It sure does to me.
Isn't that funny, an all-powerful ALL-KNOWING so-called god had problems with the old covenant, very strange for a so-called god that knows the future, that it didn't see that coming, that is pitiful.

Paul

:) :) :)

galla

9th July 2009, 07:47 PM

He himself said there were problems with the old covenant that's why he made a new covenant through his own sacrfice.

Jesus was a devout Jew. What problems did he have with the old covenant?

Jesus suffered for our sins, doesn't that mean anything to you? It sure does to me.

Well... "suffer" is a matter of perspective. Jesus had one lousy evening and one painful day, but he knew all along that he was going to end up at God's right-hand side for eternity. So it wasn't that big of a deal. Plenty of regular humans would go through a day or two of hell in order to win an eternity of bliss. They'd go through a few days of hell for no prize at all if it saved their children (not to mention if it saved the entire human race).

Sun Countess

9th July 2009, 08:15 PM

What about how God reveals himself in the New Testament, have you ever tried to know Jesus through the New Testsament and new covenant?
Why should I care that someone updated a book of fiction? Nothing that was written can undo what your God claimed to do in the first half of the bible. If you believe in him, you believe he did all those things. The rapings, the killings, the brutal manipulations of even his chosen pets.

He himself said there were problems with the old covenant that's why he made a new covenant through his own sacrfice.
So....does this mean that god wasn't perfect?

Jesus suffered for our sins, doesn't that mean anything to you? It sure does to me.
Not. one. whit. Why should it matter to me? I'm not a sinner and even if I were, I would never ask anyone else to take my rightful punishment.

Here's a question: If God was able to create Mary without sin, why didn't he create everybody else without sin after Jesus died? Why are all people still born as evil filthy disgusting sinners in God's eyes? Why are we all still paying for a mistake made by Adam and Eve?

Your mythology makes absolutely no sense. Neither the old testament nor the new.

kurious_kathy

9th July 2009, 09:31 PM

Why should I care that someone updated a book of fiction? Nothing that was written can undo what your God claimed to do in the first half of the bible. If you believe in him, you believe he did all those things. The rapings, the killings, the brutal manipulations of even his chosen pets.

So....does this mean that god wasn't perfect?

Not. one. whit. Why should it matter to me? I'm not a sinner and even if I were, I would never ask anyone else to take my rightful punishment.

Here's a question: If God was able to create Mary without sin, why didn't he create everybody else without sin after Jesus died? Why are all people still born as evil filthy disgusting sinners in God's eyes? Why are we all still paying for a mistake made by Adam and Eve?

Your mythology makes absolutely no sense. Neither the old testament nor the new.

Who told you Mary was without sin? This is not true as she was a sinner like everyone else. This is just one of the big problems the Catholic church teaches, quit making Mary equals with God, she's not and the Catholic church needs to repent of making an idol of Mary!

Also I assure you it's no mythology and it is a mistake on your part to not admit you are a sinner, pride is the sin I see here and we all need to be humble before God and admit our guilt before he forgives us. He is faithful to forgive us our sins once we confess.

kurious_kathy

9th July 2009, 09:39 PM

Isn't that funny, an all-powerful ALL-KNOWING so-called god had problems with the old covenant, very strange for a so-called god that knows the future, that it didn't see that coming, that is pitiful.

Paul

:) :) :)

Well I think God has to work around free will which to me seems a bit tricky, wouldn't you agree. He gave us all the gift of free will but helping us surrender our will to his seems to be the real challenge.

Tell me Paul what would it take to get you to that point? It took me getting to the end of my rope the hard way, and God was there to save me and turn my life back around.

It is said God is a God of second chances when we need it most, and boy did I need it. What about you? Don't you want a new lease on life?

paximperium

9th July 2009, 09:42 PM

Well I think God has to work around free will which to me seems a bit tricky, wouldn't you agree. He gave us all the gift of free will but helping us surrender our will to his seems to be the real challenge.
So your god is not all knowing and not all powerful. Your god is pretty weak and pathetic after all. No wonder he is so incompetent.

paximperium

9th July 2009, 09:45 PM

It is said God is a God of second chances when we need it most, and boy did I need it. What about you? Don't you want a new lease on life?
Your god is more like a god of forth or fifth chances since he screws up all the time. He screwed up Creation, screwed the Garden of Eden, flooded the entire world, had to kill and torture Jesus and still hasn't gotten anything right. What a failure.

yy2bggggs

9th July 2009, 09:57 PM

Also I assure you it's no mythology
KK:

I assure you it's mythology. Man made from clay, woman made from ribs, talking animals, flood epics with rainbow origin explanations... these are all mythical elements. You talk about pride and humility later on--but not calling this spade a spade speaks volumes of your own.

Mythical doesn't necessarily mean false, though I can understand how threatening it is for you to say that your set of wild tales is just another instance of the same kind of thing that other people's wild tales are.

But so long as you have rose colored glasses...
and it is a mistake on your part to not admit you are a sinner, pride is the sin I see here
...then sure, people who don't believe your particular wild tales are obviously the arrogant ones, and the ones who submit to your true scotsman are the real humble ones... obviously...

...because the lies we tell ourselves are what make it seem true, right?
and we all need to be humble before God
There's more humility in accepting what is there than there is in clinging to beliefs and twisting your view of others.

You need to be humble before truth. If your God is truth, the pieces should fall into place. If not, throw him away.

Stop with this believing already. Start looking. Don't look for either--look at.

Sun Countess

9th July 2009, 09:57 PM

Who told you Mary was without sin? This is not true as she was a sinner like everyone else. This is just one of the big problems the Catholic church teaches, quit making Mary equals with God, she's not and the Catholic church needs to repent of making an idol of Mary!
Oops. Sorry, I keep thinking that Catholics are a part of Christianity. I forget that you Christians haven't yet found a way to accept each other. Yes, Mary's immaculate conception is part of the Catholic mythology. You only believe she's a lowly virgin mother. As far as being "equal" with god, they're both equally fictional, so yeah, she's equal with god.

Also I assure you it's no mythology and it is a mistake on your part to not admit you are a sinner, pride is the sin I see here and we all need to be humble before God and admit our guilt before he forgives us. He is faithful to forgive us our sins once we confess.
For the umpteenth time, I'm not a sinner. Sin is a man-made concept, the equivalent of an abusive man calling his spouse "stupid" or "worthless" for being human. Why do you feel the need to confess to being human? Why do you feel so worthless? Why do you try so hard to please the people who are calling you worthless? It's sad, seriously.

And yes, I recognize "pride" as fundie-speak for a non-believer, so I won't call you out on judging my sins. I am a non-believer after all. But it has nothing to do with pride, and everything to do with common sense.

Foster Zygote

9th July 2009, 09:57 PM

I think killing is NOT something God likes either way or why would he say "Do Not Murder" as one of the Ten Commandments? If someone told me to kill someone I would more likely think it was Satan, not God, wouldn't you?

Have you read Joshua and Judges? Seriously, have you read them?

galla

9th July 2009, 09:59 PM

It is said God is a God of second chances when we need it most, and boy did I need it. What about you? Don't you want a new lease on life?

So those of us who don't want a new lease on life, who are happy with the life we have, and who don't turn to alcohol or drugs or a "sinful" lifestyle... we're just screwed because we'll never be desperate or vulnerable enough to want God in our lives.

I was involved with an evangelical church for a while and it struck me that only a certain type of person seemed to really fall for it hook, line and sinker (as opposed to those who grew up in it and were indoctrinated) - the ones who needed to replace one kind of addiction (e.g. alcohol) with another (Jesus). It's a personality thing. God just forgot to include the God-shaped hole in some of us.

Ladewig

9th July 2009, 10:17 PM

It's a personality thing. God just forgot to include the God-shaped hole in some of us.

An insightful observation with a touch of the poetic. I guess that's why I suffer through some of these train wreck threads. Well played, Galla.

Fiona

10th July 2009, 12:42 AM

Why must he? If he is omnipotent he doesn't have to do anything, surely. This is a curious notion and I have been thinking about what might constrain god in this way and what the implicatrions might be.

Kurious Kathy can you answer this please?

kurious_kathy

10th July 2009, 12:58 AM

So those of us who don't want a new lease on life, who are happy with the life we have, and who don't turn to alcohol or drugs or a "sinful" lifestyle... we're just screwed because we'll never be desperate or vulnerable enough to want God in our lives.

I was involved with an evangelical church for a while and it struck me that only a certain type of person seemed to really fall for it hook, line and sinker (as opposed to those who grew up in it and were indoctrinated) - the ones who needed to replace one kind of addiction (e.g. alcohol) with another (Jesus). It's a personality thing. God just forgot to include the God-shaped hole in some of us.

Awe but some of the worst of us have been forgiven for so much we do not take Gods grace for granted like maybe someone who does not think they have sinned at all or very much. We who have sinned too much and know it have more repenting to do so maybe we just feel it more than someone who hasn't been damaged as much by their sins? All I know is we have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Jesus is the only one who can grant us the gift of repentance in which I myself have received,and I am certain of my salvation. I do not deserve the gift God has given me, but I am Very Thankful for it!

kurious_kathy

10th July 2009, 01:08 AM

Kurious Kathy can you answer this please?

So if I am understanding your thought you are asking if God can do anything and everything why doesn't he? If this is what you are asking I would state he has given everyone of us the gift of free will so he does not take that away from us. I believe he hopes all of us will choose to love and trust in him with our gift of free will that he gave us. God does not force us to love him, he hopes we will choose to love him and when we do everything in our life changes.

I believe God wants us to have choices in this world and unfortunately because of the fall he is letting sin run it's course so it's hard to know why he continues to allow it. I just see there is coming a day very soon when God will put an end to sin and for those of us who have accepted his Son he has promised us a new start in a perfect sinless world where we will live happily ever after with our creator. Now why would anyone want to miss out on that?

realpaladin

10th July 2009, 01:18 AM

So if I am understanding your thought you are asking if God can do anything and everything why doesn't he? If this is what you are asking I would state he has given everyone of us the gift of free will so he does not take that away from us. I believe he hopes all of us will choose to love and trust in him with our gift of free will that he gave us. God does not force us to love him, he hopes we will choose to love him and when we do everything in our life changes.

I believe God wants us to have choices in this world and unfortunately because of the fall he is letting sin run it's course so it's hard to know why he continues to allow it. I just see there is coming a day very soon when God will put an end to sin and for those of us who have accepted his Son he has promised us a new start in a perfect sinless world where we will live happily ever after with our creator. Now why would anyone want to miss out on that?

- Why should God 'hope'? He is omniscient. He knows what we will choose.
- If he is not omniscient, and he does not make himself omniscient, he is not omnipotent.
- If he is not both, he can not be called perfect, and he can not create a perfect sinless world.

Kathy, I would not want to miss out on it, but it is not going to happen so we all will be missing out on it.

paximperium

10th July 2009, 01:25 AM

Fiona

10th July 2009, 02:12 AM

So if I am understanding your thought you are asking if God can do anything and everything why doesn't he? If this is what you are asking I would state he has given everyone of us the gift of free will so he does not take that away from us. I believe he hopes all of us will choose to love and trust in him with our gift of free will that he gave us. God does not force us to love him, he hopes we will choose to love him and when we do everything in our life changes.

I believe God wants us to have choices in this world and unfortunately because of the fall he is letting sin run it's course so it's hard to know why he continues to allow it. I just see there is coming a day very soon when God will put an end to sin and for those of us who have accepted his Son he has promised us a new start in a perfect sinless world where we will live happily ever after with our creator. Now why would anyone want to miss out on that?

Nope. Read it again: you said god must punish sin.

The question is why must he?

kurious_kathy

10th July 2009, 02:13 AM

Oops. Sorry, I keep thinking that Catholics are a part of Christianity. I forget that you Christians haven't yet found a way to accept each other. Yes, Mary's immaculate conception is part of the Catholic mythology. You only believe she's a lowly virgin mother. As far as being "equal" with god, they're both equally fictional, so yeah, she's equal with god.

For the umpteenth time, I'm not a sinner. Sin is a man-made concept, the equivalent of an abusive man calling his spouse "stupid" or "worthless" for being human. Why do you feel the need to confess to being human? Why do you feel so worthless? Why do you try so hard to please the people who are calling you worthless? It's sad, seriously.

And yes, I recognize "pride" as fundie-speak for a non-believer, so I won't call you out on judging my sins. I am a non-believer after all. But it has nothing to do with pride, and everything to do with common sense.

Okay SC I am not wanting to play sin police as this is clearly not my job but the Holy Spirits, but sin is a very real problem in our fallen world and everyone deals with it's consequences whether you believe it or not.

As for Catholicism forget it, they have so many wrong teachings in the Catholic church I am having to agree with John McArthur and Dave Hunt when they teach we must help Catholics better understand the true teachings of Christ and help them see the big errors in their denomination. I have already pointed out many of the errors I see in Catholicism on other posts so I won't go into it again. If you want more info I would advise you listen to some of these 2 teachers speak on it. Were you raised Catholic?

As for your other comments you obviously relate to the OP quite well but I am still very concerned how you find comfort as a atheist? I mean it kind of seems like you are sticking your head in the ground like an ostridge pretending if you can't see something that means it's not there, but the reality of this is you are just choosing to not face what's really there if you weren't hiding. I guess I feel most atheists are just running or hiding from God and his reality.

Fiona

10th July 2009, 02:17 AM

kurious_kathy

10th July 2009, 02:21 AM

Nope. Read it again: you said god must punish sin.

The question is why must he?

Because God is Holy. If we finite beings could even understand what holiness means we would see why clearly God must deal with ridding the world from it's stain. Sin ruins everything and it is not okay. Why do we have to die for the penalty of sin, because God says so. The reality of death surely should be evidence enough for everyone to see God's no liar. We all need to feel sorry for our sins, and if we do not get to that point then it's never going to be okay or forgiven. God is the one who's right Fiona, that's all I can really tell you.

kurious_kathy

10th July 2009, 02:25 AM

If God is willing to prevent evil, but is not able to
Then he is not omnipotent.

If he is able, but not willing
Then he is malevolent.

If he is both able and willing
Then whence cometh evil?

If he is neither able nor willing
Then why call him God?
-Epicurus (c. 341 - c. 270 BC)

God is good, but we are not.
God is full of grace, but we really do not deserve it.
He forgives us even though we have sinned against him.
He shows mercy and restores lost and broken people.
God is good and I love him for he first loved me!

Fiona

10th July 2009, 02:30 AM

Because God is Holy. If we finite beings could even understand what holiness means we would see why clearly God must deal with ridding the world from it's stain. Sin ruins everything and it is not okay. Why do we have to die for the penalty of sin, because God says so. The reality of death surely should be evidence enough for everyone to see God's no liar. We all need to feel sorry for our sins, and if we do not get to that point then it's never going to be okay or forgiven. God is the one who's right Fiona, that's all I can really tell you.

That is not an answer Kathy, and you know it. Why must god punish sin. If one must do something one is constrained by something more powerful than oneself. So what is that more powerful thing?

kurious_kathy

10th July 2009, 02:39 AM

Kathy you have amply demonstrated in earlier posts that you know nothing about catholic belief: and your errors have been pointed out to you. If you were honest you would go and find out what they actually believe. You might still not agree but at least you would know what you were disagreeing with

This thread is not about Catholicism but I have been studying what other religions follow and when I see something is not true to what scripture teaches I will speak up about it.

!. Catholics should not pray to Mary and they have made an idol of her. She is not co redemptrous so they are guilty of making her equal with God. That's just plain wrong!

2.Catholics believe their works will save them but the Bible clearly teaches we are only saved by grace.

3. Jesus said we should only pray to God through him as he interceeds for us, not some bishop or man masquerading as a holy father namely the pope. The Pope is a fallen man and needs to repent himself.

4. We are told not to make prayer repetative but Catholics say the rosary over and over again just like chanting or something. Our prayers should be fresh and from the heart new each time, not something repetative and meaningless.

5. The Eucharist Christ is not the Risen Christ!

6. Jesus himself said unless a man be born again he cannot enter the kingdom of heaven, and yet Catholics do not honor this teaching let alone know what to do with it. I have asked many Catholics to answer me why they aren't born again, and they just avoid this question like the plague.

Sorry I am ranting but I am very upset with these fasle teachings as they go against the true teaching of Christ.

Now lets get back to the OP shall we? Why would you if you are an atheist find comfort in non belief of God?

Fiona

10th July 2009, 03:23 AM

This thread is not about Catholicism but I have been studying what other religions follow and when I see something is not true to what scripture teaches I will speak up about it.

You will speak up about your strawmen? I am sure you will

!. Catholics should not pray to Mary and they have made an idol of her. She is not co redemptrous so they are guilty of making her equal with God. That's just plain wrong!

Well I am not a catholic but I know enough to know that is nonsense. Mary is in no sense equal with god in their doctrine. Go read.

2.Catholics believe their works will save them but the Bible clearly teaches we are only saved by grace.

That is not only wrong but you were told explicitly that it is wrong the last time you said it on this board. Nothng demonstrates your dishonesty and unwillingness to learn better

3. Jesus said we should only pray to God through him as he interceeds for us, not some bishop or man masquerading as a holy father namely the pope. The Pope is a fallen man and needs to repent himself.

I am quite sure that the catholic heirarchy conceive of themselves as fallen. What makes you think they don't? Did you ask any?

4. We are told not to make prayer repetative but Catholics say the rosary over and over again just like chanting or something. Our prayers should be fresh and from the heart new each time, not something repetative and meaningless.

Er... I thought that Jesus gave us the lord's prayer. I presume your sect does not say that prayer?

5. The Eucharist Christ is not the Risen Christ!

Not sure what you mean

6. Jesus himself said unless a man be born again he cannot enter the kingdom of heaven, and yet Catholics do not honor this teaching let alone know what to do with it. I have asked many Catholics to answer me why they aren't born again, and they just avoid this question like the plague.

What nonsense. From the catholic encyclopaedia: "Baptism is, therefore, the sacrament by which we are born again of water and the Holy Ghost"

Sorry I am ranting but I am very upset with these fasle teachings as they go against the true teaching of Christ.

Good thing that this is not what catholics teach then, isn't it?

You are comprehensively wrong,Kathy. Your teachers are lying to you. Why do you think that is ?

chillzero

10th July 2009, 04:17 AM

realpaladin

10th July 2009, 05:24 AM

Now lets get back to the OP shall we? Why would you if you are an atheist find comfort in non belief of God?

Well, for one thing I do not have to spend my time discussing what is the true belief of God.

I can spend that time comfortably doing important things with my life.

JFrankA

10th July 2009, 07:23 AM

*sigh*
kitty - thank you for a good OP, and the premise of a really interesting thread.
I'm so sorry it has been successfully hijacked by K-K's preaching and completely off topic raving - none of this has anything to do with the comfort atheists find in their own positions. Once again we are dragged into a discussion about christianity and god, and one that is particularly ill informed on the christian side.

I'm done here. Hopefully there'll be a similar thread at some point to explore how atheists view their position and lack of belief in religion or god as comforting, or how it impacts our lives, without people feeding the troll. I'd start one except I believe this is exactly how it will go again.

*sigh*
My thoughts exactly. This started as a nice, uplifting thread from someone who transcended the "Us vs Them" mentality. And Kitty, thank you from me too.

Although, I don't feel like it was a troll that hijacked this thread. Merely someone who's fallen into that "Us vs them" mentality and has made it her goal to save us. (I tend to try to assume the best in people, nasty trait... :) )

To KK - we atheist don't need saving. We have morals, we have empathy, we make mistakes, but we are human, just as you are. And being human does not equal being a sinner. It makes me sad to see that religion has made you feel so poorly about the human race, whereas for someone like Kitty, religion has made her see the good in people.

I don't believe in god. I do believe that whatever you need to do to be a better person and be a better person towards others is a good thing for that individual, Kitty being a prime example. However, IMHO, if your religion is making you feel fear and inadequacy simply because you are human; and frustration and distrust at another religious group that's very similar to your own, then your religion isn't doing you any good.

I'm sorry. That's just how I see it.

Sun Countess

10th July 2009, 08:56 AM

As for Catholicism forget it, <snip bits on how catholics are wrong>. If you want more info I would advise you listen to some of these 2 teachers speak on it. Were you raised Catholic? I'm a life-long atheist. I did have a lot of Catholic friends growing up. It was at one of their houses that I read some of the bible and discovered that all the "God is Love" nonsense that people were spouting in the mid-70s was a bunch of bunk.

As for your other comments you obviously relate to the OP quite well but I am still very concerned how you find comfort as a atheist? I mean it kind of seems like you are sticking your head in the ground like an ostridge pretending if you can't see something that means it's not there, but the reality of this is you are just choosing to not face what's really there if you weren't hiding. I guess I feel most atheists are just running or hiding from God and his reality.
Atheists are NOT running from reality. We find comfort in our reality. When bad things happen, we rely on ourselves and others. Real people who actually love us. Real people who can actually help us. I can count on a real person to take me to a doctor or provide a meal for my family. I can do the same for others. If somebody needs help, I'm not going to flap my arms and get-ta-praying. I'll ask what I can DO. Do you need a meal? Do you need some company? Can I run some errands for you? Can I watch your kids? Prayers to imaginary beings don't do any of those things.

And as far as the horrible suffering that goes on in the world, we know that some of it is man-made (violence, wars) and we can try to deal with that. Some of it is natural (disease, weather disasters) and we can deal with those things in different ways. Not by praying, but by learning and trying and improving on what we already know. If somebody's child gets sick with cancer, I don't have to go through mental contortions to try to figure out what god is trying to say. It sucks, but it's random, and I know that my kids may be next, but when a kid gets cancer, it's not because anybody has done anything wrong. It has nothing to do with Adam and Eve, and it has nothing to do with being unworthy sinners.

To re-quote: I mean it kind of seems like you are sticking your head in the ground like an ostridge pretending if you can't see something that means it's not there,
It's not there. It's all a bunch of lies. Furthermore, I don't see how it's comforting to think that a horrible being wants to kill you and make you suffer because he can't stand the sinful humanness that he built into you, and that it's only through his grace that you're allowed to live at all. How exactly is that comforting? Is it all just the promised rewards after you're dead? Talk about not living in reality.

galla

10th July 2009, 09:49 AM

Awe but some of the worst of us have been forgiven for so much we do not take Gods grace for granted like maybe someone who does not think they have sinned at all or very much. We who have sinned too much and know it have more repenting to do so maybe we just feel it more than someone who hasn't been damaged as much by their sins?

You're confirming my suspicions. So I need to get out there and do some serious sinning! I need to take up alcoholism or drugs or start sleeping around and lying and stealing and betraying my family... I need to be evil wicked bad for a while so I can really appreciate being rescued by Jesus.

Trouble is, I had a great childhood, I have a happy life. I like getting along with people and not breaking laws. I live within my means and I don't make emotional decisions. It's a stress-free way to live and it works for me. Your brand of Christianity tends to work best with "damaged" people, which I am not.

Regarding the OP, when I do come across hurdles in my life I am extremely grateful for my rational mind because I don't have to worry about why it's happening or what lesson some supernatural puppetmaster is trying to teach me. I can just deal with it practically. Not having to worry about what "test" the puppetmaster is scheming up for me next? That's very comforting.

Elizabeth I

10th July 2009, 12:37 PM

Lrrr

10th July 2009, 01:19 PM

Well I think God has to work around free will which to me seems a bit tricky, wouldn't you agree. He gave us all the gift of free will but helping us surrender our will to his seems to be the real challenge.

So God gave us free will just so we can surrender it to him? :jaw-dropp

Lrrr

10th July 2009, 01:26 PM

Because God is Holy. If we finite beings could even understand what holiness means we would see why clearly God must deal with ridding the world from it's stain. Sin ruins everything and it is not okay. Why do we have to die for the penalty of sin, because God says so. The reality of death surely should be evidence enough for everyone to see God's no liar. We all need to feel sorry for our sins, and if we do not get to that point then it's never going to be okay or forgiven. God is the one who's right Fiona, that's all I can really tell you.

To quote Inigo Montoya, "I do not think that word means what you think it means".

kurious_kathy

10th July 2009, 02:21 PM

Well, for one thing I do not have to spend my time discussing what is the true belief of God.

I can spend that time comfortably doing important things with my life.

Oh so you don't think knowing or talking about God is important? If there is one thing that does matter in this life it's knowing him, he's the reason we are alive.

How does anyone find real purpose without God?

kurious_kathy

10th July 2009, 02:28 PM

To quote Inigo Montoya, "I do not think that word means what you think it means".

From the movie Princess Bride... instant replay...
"Hello, my name is Kathy, you killed my father, prepare to die." Or at least prepare to repent and be saved from the second death. I added my own extra on the end.

But seriously we all are the ones guilty for making Jesus go to the cross and suffer, he did not deserve that punishment,we did, but he did it for love. Jesus loves you, when are you going to get that?

paximperium

10th July 2009, 02:30 PM

Oh so you don't think knowing or talking about God is important? If there is one thing that does matter in this life it's knowing him, he's the reason we are alive. No, "he" isn't because atheist do not believe any gods exist. Your inability to understand even that basic concept along with your vile and hateful comments is why you are so despised in this forum.

How does anyone find real purpose without God? Because one does not need a fantasy to find purpose in life. One does not need to lie to themselves to find purpose in life.
People grow out of believing in fantasies such as Santa Clause and many grow out of believing in fantasy beings such as god.

galla

10th July 2009, 02:30 PM

Jesus loves you, when are you going to get that?

Maybe when he starts acting lovingly? "He" being God - God and Jesus being one and the same.

paximperium

10th July 2009, 02:33 PM

But seriously we all are the ones guilty for making Jesus go to the cross and suffer, he did not deserve that punishment,we did, but he did it for love. Does the multitide of other people who were tortured and crucified by the Romans deserving? Jesus' punishment isn't that special.

Jesus loves you, when are you going to get that?
Atheist do not believe Jesus exist or if he did, he is not rotten dust and long dead, when are you going to get that?

kurious_kathy

10th July 2009, 02:35 PM

I'm a life-long atheist. I did have a lot of Catholic friends growing up. It was at one of their houses that I read some of the bible and discovered that all the "God is Love" nonsense that people were spouting in the mid-70s was a bunch of bunk.

Atheists are NOT running from reality. We find comfort in our reality. When bad things happen, we rely on ourselves and others. Real people who actually love us. Real people who can actually help us. I can count on a real person to take me to a doctor or provide a meal for my family. I can do the same for others. If somebody needs help, I'm not going to flap my arms and get-ta-praying. I'll ask what I can DO. Do you need a meal? Do you need some company? Can I run some errands for you? Can I watch your kids? Prayers to imaginary beings don't do any of those things.

And as far as the horrible suffering that goes on in the world, we know that some of it is man-made (violence, wars) and we can try to deal with that. Some of it is natural (disease, weather disasters) and we can deal with those things in different ways. Not by praying, but by learning and trying and improving on what we already know. If somebody's child gets sick with cancer, I don't have to go through mental contortions to try to figure out what god is trying to say. It sucks, but it's random, and I know that my kids may be next, but when a kid gets cancer, it's not because anybody has done anything wrong. It has nothing to do with Adam and Eve, and it has nothing to do with being unworthy sinners.

To re-quote:
It's not there. It's all a bunch of lies. Furthermore, I don't see how it's comforting to think that a horrible being wants to kill you and make you suffer because he can't stand the sinful humanness that he built into you, and that it's only through his grace that you're allowed to live at all. How exactly is that comforting? Is it all just the promised rewards after you're dead? Talk about not living in reality.

But it's not all a bunch of lies, Jesus really did come into the world,"the Son of God" he really did teach us how to live, then he went to the cross to pay a debt he did not owe.

Jesus suffered so that we might live. How is it you can't let yourself believe this truth? Has the god of this dark world (Satan) so blinded you and filled your head with lies that you cannot accept this reality? Jesus is reality!

And I must say I believe when it does come time for all you who claim to be atheists to die, at that very last moment I think you may have to reconsider you have been wrong and you'll call for a Pastor to come help you pray to accept Jesus, just incase your wrong. When it comes down to the wire and you are facing death can you really afford to be wrong?

Agatha

10th July 2009, 02:36 PM

How does anyone find real purpose without God? Is this a serious question - do you intend to read and consider people's answers?

I find real purpose in every day of my life. I find it in the joy of raising happy, healthy fulfilled children; four of my own and two step-children. I find it in the work I do with ex-offenders who have substance addiction problems. I find it in my voluntary work as a karate teacher. I find it in the happiness and love I share with my partner. I find it in reading for education and pleasure, I find it in the beauty of the universe, I even find it in my ongoing struggle with a painful debilitating disease (which has put my karate teaching on hold for now). No god required for any of it.

paximperium

10th July 2009, 02:40 PM

But it's not all a bunch of lies, Jesus really did come into the world,"the Son of God" he really did teach us how to live, then he went to the cross to pay a debt he did not owe.

Jesus suffered so that we might live. How is it you can't let yourself believe this truth? Has Satan so blinded you and filled your head with lies that you cannot accept this reality? Jesus is reality!
Do you have ANY evidence for this nonsense at all? Any would be nice.

Your inability to move beyond blind stupid braying and preaching without providing any evidence makes you the worst Christian to attempt to convert anyone. You drive people away from your religion by your silly nonsense KK. You are your fantasy Satan's best worker.

Fiona

10th July 2009, 02:45 PM

But seriously we all are the ones guilty for making Jesus go to the cross and suffer, he did not deserve that punishment,we did, but he did it for love. Jesus loves you, when are you going to get that?

I DO NOT deserve that punishment, Kathy: and NEITHER DO YOU.

When are you going to get that?

kurious_kathy

10th July 2009, 02:47 PM

No, "he" isn't because atheist do not believe any gods exist. Your inability to understand even that basic concept along with your vile and hateful comments is why you are so despised in this forum.
Because one does not need a fantasy to find purpose in life. One does not need to lie to themselves to find purpose in life.
People grow out of believing in fantasies such as Santa Clause and many grow out of believing in fantasy beings such as god.

So what do you believe in? What is your purpose in life?

I have always been a passionate woman but now I want to live with more Godly passion and care more about the things God cares about. You could say I just got tired of living life on my own terms, but I see most of you aren't there yet. Maybe you'll never get where I am now but I can always hope you do. I feel many of my years were wasted without God.

Fiona

10th July 2009, 02:49 PM

but I see most of you aren't there yet. Maybe you'll never get where I am now but I can always hope you do.

No offence Kathy, but to use a phrase which may mean something to you, Heaven forfend

kurious_kathy

10th July 2009, 02:51 PM

Is this a serious question - do you intend to read and consider people's answers?

I find real purpose in every day of my life. I find it in the joy of raising happy, healthy fulfilled children; four of my own and two step-children. I find it in the work I do with ex-offenders who have substance addiction problems. I find it in my voluntary work as a karate teacher. I find it in the happiness and love I share with my partner. I find it in reading for education and pleasure, I find it in the beauty of the universe, I even find it in my ongoing struggle with a painful debilitating disease (which has put my karate teaching on hold for now). No god required for any of it.

What debilitaing disease? I do have some understanding of that, and many of the other things you shared, except for the last sentence I do not aggree, I believe we all need God!

Agatha

10th July 2009, 02:59 PM

paximperium

10th July 2009, 03:07 PM

So what do you believe in? I believe in many things.
What is your purpose in life? To learn, to live, to enjoy, to love, to see, to experience, to make the world a better place etc etc etc.

I have always been a passionate woman but now I want to live with more Godly passion and care more about the things God cares about. You could say I just got tired of living life on my own terms, but I see most of you aren't there yet. Maybe you'll never get where I am now but I can always hope you do. I feel many of my years were wasted without God. Sorry, but I consider your "god-addled" mind to be a complete and utter waste. I have no interest in being stupid.

JFrankA

10th July 2009, 03:19 PM

So what do you believe in? What is your purpose in life?

I have always been a passionate woman but now I want to live with more Godly passion and care more about the things God cares about. You could say I just got tired of living life on my own terms, but I see most of you aren't there yet. Maybe you'll never get where I am now but I can always hope you do. I feel many of my years were wasted without God.

To me, it sounds like you got depressed and you grabbed religion to make you feel better about yourself. If I am wrong or insulting, please forgive me. It is not my intention to be either, but that's how you come across to me.

So no, I will never ever get to that tired of living. In fact, I find the universe more amazing and beautiful than ever before. People are far more interesting, and life means MORE.

I will say that again: life means MORE to me as an atheist than it ever did as a theist. Why? Because I know that this is the only life I get.

When I was a theist, I believed as you did: that I am nothing, but if I do good enough in the eyes of something unseen, I will continue in an afterlife.

But that's not the reality. The reality is once I'm gone, I'm done. No heaven, no hell, no "continuing life after life". This is my one shot. This is my one turn. We all have one life, one turn. So I try to enjoy it, learn as much as I can, see as much as I can. and share happiness, my life and my experiences with as many people I possibly can.

That's my purpose. This is my passion and it has nothing to do with any god.

Sun Countess

10th July 2009, 03:29 PM

Oh so you don't think knowing or talking about God is important? If there is one thing that does matter in this life it's knowing him, he's the reason we are alive.

How does anyone find real purpose without God?
Others have already answered this question as well as I could. Family, children, career, charity work, pets, hobbies, the outdoors, etc. etc. What real things in your life are you avoiding so that you can spend time with your fantasy life?

But it's not all a bunch of lies, Jesus really did come into the world,"the Son of God" he really did teach us how to live, then he went to the cross to pay a debt he did not owe.

Jesus suffered so that we might live. How is it you can't let yourself believe this truth? Has the god of this dark world (Satan) so blinded you and filled your head with lies that you cannot accept this reality? Jesus is reality!
Are you saying that none of us would be alive if Jesus had never lived? Or is this still about the fantasy life that comes after this one?

And I must say I believe when it does come time for all you who claim to be atheists to die, at that very last moment I think you may have to reconsider you have been wrong and you'll call for a Pastor to come help you pray to accept Jesus, just incase your wrong. When it comes down to the wire and you are facing death can you really afford to be wrong?
Nope. Why do you think that an atheist's convictions aren't as strong as yours? Are you going to give up on god in your final hour? I doubt it. I have as much likelihood of calling a pastor as I do a unicorn veterinarian.

I have always been a passionate woman but now I want to live with more Godly passion and care more about the things God cares about. You could say I just got tired of living life on my own terms, but I see most of you aren't there yet. Maybe you'll never get where I am now but I can always hope you do. I feel many of my years were wasted without God.
I'm not tired of living life on my own terms, with a little input from the people I love and the people who count on me. I hope I never get to the point where I'm living my life based on what I think a fictional character wants me to do. But if I ever do become that deluded, I've already called dibs on Mr. Darcy for a fantasy character to boss me around.

I'm sorry that you feel your years were wasted without God. I can't imagine wasting time on any fictional character, but particularly one so cruel.

Jesus loves you, when are you going to get that?
Jesus died 2000 years ago. How can he possibly love me? Not even my great-grandparents loved me because they died before I was born. At least I know they would have loved me were they alive, because we would be family.

Do you honestly believe that a long-dead man loves each and every one of the nearly 7 billion people alive on earth at this moment, plus all the ones who've lived and died in the intervening 2000 years? And this makes you feel special.....how?

realpaladin

10th July 2009, 04:39 PM

Oh so you don't think knowing or talking about God is important?
Nope.

Well, I find talking about God highly amusing, the evidence being my willingness to participate in threads about God.

If there is one thing that does matter in this life it's knowing him

To me, that sounds like a terrible empty life. I think enjoying Nature is a much more worthy way of waiting till I die.

And the coolest thing is, I can not even express in numbers how little we have seen of it.

, he's the reason we are alive.

No he is not.
In a concrete manner; my father and my mother had steaming hot sex, my father deposited his sperm inside her, her egg got fertilized and nine months later, there was I.

How does anyone find real purpose without God?
There is no real purpose. There is not even a fictitional purpose.
Just have some fun while your existence lasts.

Pup

10th July 2009, 05:38 PM

And I must say I believe when it does come time for all you who claim to be atheists to die, at that very last moment I think you may have to reconsider you have been wrong and you'll call for a Pastor to come help you pray to accept Jesus, just incase your wrong. When it comes down to the wire and you are facing death can you really afford to be wrong?

You've claimed that you don't believe in any other religion, and are staking everything on this particular one. At that very last moment, are you going to reconsider and bring in a representative of some other religion and accept their god, just in case you're wrong, so you won't go to their hell?

If not, well, that's why atheists don't all change their minds before they die too.

MIKILLINI

10th July 2009, 08:06 PM

How am I suppose to answer this? Atheists find comfort by just denying what I know is the truth of God.

What you know is what you've been told. Your knowledge of the bible consists of what you've been told. The only bible reading you do is in the passages that make you feel better and then preach incessantly at the end of virtually all your posts.

To question why your God allows suffering puts fear directly into your heart, and so you choose not to question why suffering is allowed. This enables you to be comfortable enough in your conviction so that any concerns about other people suffering is less prevalent. Atheists do not find comfort in that.

Your quote below indicates as much:

Yes I hate suffering so in my want to feel better now flesh I would, but God is allowing suffering in this world and he promises he is doing something with it.
Believe me I do not like suffering anymore than any of you, but I find hope in the promises of God which I could only pray for you as well.

And as predictable as salt in the ocean, the preaching follows.

What matters most in this life is knowing Jesus. Nobody else is worthy of honor and praise as he died in our place to redeem this lost world. I just hope you can see him for who he really is and get past all this other stuff that just seems to blind you from accepting his love for you!

Paulhoff

10th July 2009, 08:13 PM

What matters most in this life is knowing Jesus. Nobody else is worthy of honor and praise as he died in our place to redeem this lost world.
HELLO, HELLO, according you your believe, Jesus was a so-called god, that means he COULD NOT AND CAN NOT DIE............

Paul

:) :) :)

MIKILLINI

10th July 2009, 08:32 PM

But it's not all a bunch of lies, Jesus really did come into the world,"the Son of God" he really did teach us how to live, then he went to the cross to pay a debt he did not owe.

Correction: Jesus went to the cross to pay a penalty his father bestowed upon man (who did not know right or wrong until eating the forbidden fruit) for disobedience. Really Kathy, did A&E know disobedience was wrong at the time?

When it comes down to the wire and you are facing death can you really afford to be wrong?

What if we are right?

Fiona

11th July 2009, 01:15 AM

Kathy do you intend to answer my question?

Why must God punish sin?

kurious_kathy

11th July 2009, 01:40 AM

Crohn's disease, very severe and not currently being controlled by drugs. Surgery to follow in the very near future.

I wish you joy of your beliefs, kathy; but I also wish you would find understanding that atheists do not believe your god exists. It's not about denying god, it's putting god in the same category as Santa and the Easter Bunny. Fairy tales to entertain children, which should be left in childhood.

I also wish that you did not see yourself as a bad person, you seem from your posts to have extreme self-loathing and this saddens me on your behalf.

I'm sorry about your crohn's disease. We know someone else who has this and even though I haven't talked to him in a while his wife told me he was doing well now after surgery and he is back to his job being a pilot.

Aren't we glad we do live in a time where there are many miracles of healing through medicine? And even if you don't think my prayers would help I would like to pray for you just the same.

kurious_kathy

11th July 2009, 01:49 AM

Kathy do you intend to answer my question?

Why must God punish sin?

Because sin has penalties just like all other wrong doing. If a person breaks the law and gets caught don't they go to court and pay the fine? or worse to jail when it's really bad?

God sees every wrong we have ever done in our lives so our punishment is death, why is it so hard to accept our heavenly Father has the right to judge sin?

kurious_kathy

11th July 2009, 01:55 AM

HELLO, HELLO, according you your believe, Jesus was a so-called god, that means he COULD NOT AND CAN NOT DIE............

Paul

:) :) :)

Oh but your forgetting death could not keep him because he never sinned. Jesus told his disciples he would be crucified and barried but then he would be raised to life again on the third day. This ressurrection did indeed happen, and it is well documneted historically with hundreds of eyewitnesses.

kurious_kathy

11th July 2009, 02:04 AM

You've claimed that you don't believe in any other religion, and are staking everything on this particular one. At that very last moment, are you going to reconsider and bring in a representative of some other religion and accept their god, just in case you're wrong, so you won't go to their hell?

If not, well, that's why atheists don't all change their minds before they die too.

Actually I have spoken and listened to many pastors preach, and most of them have mentioned from time to time in their teaching that when it comes time for a professing atheist to die, a lot of them have a change of heart at the end of their lives and call these Pastors to their bedside to pray with them to accept Christ.

Fiona

11th July 2009, 02:19 AM

I can't believe you are serious.

Because sin has penalties just like all other wrong doing.

So that is a rule god cannot alter? Who made it? You have just restated the question. Care to answer it now?

If a person breaks the law and gets caught don't they go to court and pay the fine? or worse to jail when it's really bad?

They do. Our social arrangements include punishment as one element of the justice system. That is because people like to see that people who break the law are made uncomfortable and that discomfort is an end in itself: not a particularly useful trait but there it is. I call it vindictiveness and I think it is a bad thing.

But that is not the only purpose of penalties: there are at least three others. One is deterrence. It is expected that the existence of the penalty might stop some people from committing crime in the first place. There is very little to suggest this is particularly effective, though it is adduced as an argument by many who are trying to disguise the fact they are wedded to the notion of punishment/vengeance. But your god knows what we are going to do, so that would be pointless in his case

Another, in the case of jail, is rehabilitation: the idea is that while in prison the person is encouraged/forced to lean new skills/ ways of getting their needs met etc etc so that they will be better equipped to avoid crime on their release. Since your god's punishment is eternal that is not in play either

A third is the protection of other people: jail prevent further crime by stripping the person of the freedom to commit it for the period they are in prison. That is irrelevant too: punishment does not start till the person is dead. So there is no protection for humanity: and I cannot think that god is concerned that people will go about murdering and raping in the afterlife. The idea is ridiculous

God sees every wrong we have ever done in our lives so our punishment is death, why is it so hard to accept our heavenly Father has the right to judge sin?

Whether he has a right or not is not relevant: since the punishment is the only purpose he is less moral in principle than humans are: or he is not free, as you have stated

So I ask again: why must he punish sin?

dlorde

11th July 2009, 04:47 AM

But it's not all a bunch of lies, Jesus really did come into the world,"the Son of God" he really did teach us how to live, then he went to the cross to pay a debt he did not owe.It's a story, a fiction.

Jesus suffered so that we might live. How is it you can't let yourself believe this truth? Has the god of this dark world (Satan) so blinded you and filled your head with lies that you cannot accept this reality? Jesus is reality!So you keep saying, without producing a scrap of evidence. Don't you realise that if you had been born on the other side of the planet, brought up in a different culture, you might know nothing of Christianity and you might be here with an entirely different set of dogmas, trying to convince us that Allah is the one true god and that Mohammed is his prophet, that we're all doomed unless we believe that, and that all other faiths have it all wrong... Tell me, did you select your faith from the faith salad bar, or did you just end up believing what other people around you told you to believe? Either way it's clearly just an emotional crutch which has, ironically, undermined your ability to think clearly for yourself and stand on your own feet, independent of myths and imaginary friends.

And I must say I believe when it does come time for all you who claim to be atheists to die, at that very last moment I think you may have to reconsider you have been wrong and you'll call for a Pastor to come help you pray to accept Jesus, just incase your wrong. When it comes down to the wire and you are facing death can you really afford to be wrong?Oh dear... this is Pascal's Wager - for criticisms see PW Criticisms (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal's_Wager#Argument_from_Inconsistent_Revelati ons).

Paulhoff

11th July 2009, 06:37 AM

Oh but your forgetting death could not keep him because he never sinned. Jesus told his disciples he would be crucified and barried but then he would be raised to life again on the third day. This ressurrection did indeed happen, and it is well documneted historically with hundreds of eyewitnesses.
Never sinned, then how come are other babies’ sinners, can’t wait to hear that BS.

And again, it was nothing to do with sinning, he was suppose to be a so-called god. And who said he didn’t sin, a book. So they saw him every minute of every day, oh please.

And has for being crucified, that is not a good why to die, but many people have gone thru a hell of a lot worse things then that when dying and in order to save and help other people. I find it funny and ridiculous to think that people buy into the dying thing has a way to save people, since being a so-called god you don’t die. This that the best idea your so-called god it can come up with, pitiful, that dying thing has been done so many times by other so-called god stories, not very original at all.

Paul

:) :) :)

Ladewig

11th July 2009, 07:53 AM

This ressurrection did indeed happen, and it is well documneted historically with hundreds of eyewitnesses.

Can you address the nonsense that you have already posted before adding new nonsense to the list? Outside of the Bible there are no documented accounts of this event - despite Matthew describing the event as being accompanied by an earthquake and the bodies of the saints rising from their graves and walking among the living. You would think that is the type of thing that would get written down, yet it wasn't.

JFrankA

11th July 2009, 08:28 AM

Holy Zarquon's singing fish! Where to begin? Okay...here:

Aren't we glad we do live in a time where there are many miracles of healing through medicine? And even if you don't think my prayers would help I would like to pray for you just the same.

First off, science is not a miracle. Not in any way, shape of form. Science can be explained. Science can be proven.

Miracles, by definition, cannot. Please do not mix the two.

God sees every wrong we have ever done in our lives so our punishment is death, why is it so hard to accept our heavenly Father has the right to judge sin?

A) because he doesn't exist
B) because if he did exist how would we know exactly what is a sin or not
C) because if he did exist and we knew what was a sin or not, different people, even within the same religion, would still interpret each "sin" differently
D) because sometimes it's okay to sin to do the right thing
E) because from what you're saying, if someone is a good person, and makes a mistake then they should die? That makes god sound like a mean tyrant to me....

...I could go on but my fingers are getting tired and I have more comments to make....

Oh but your forgetting death could not keep him because he never sinned. Jesus told his disciples he would be crucified and barried but then he would be raised to life again on the third day. This ressurrection did indeed happen, and it is well documneted historically with hundreds of eyewitnesses.

Wait. You bypassed his point.

Let's take your mythos on face value:

If I knew that I was going to suffer a horrible death, only to come back to life and be admired by millions of people, I'd do it in a heartbeat a brag about it to my friends too.

"Dude!! Guess what? I'm going to die, but wait: I'm coming back to life and everyone will love me!!!!!"

"Dude!!! Now way!!!"

In fact, I can make it more human and true: I had to go into surgery to have my ACL replaced recently. I knew I was going to have a day of surgery (pain) and a couple of days where all I wanted to do was sleep and be in pain.

But...I had six weeks off of work. Six weeks to play on the computer, watch movies on tv, see friends who come over, eat meals cooked by my mom, etc.

So I endured three days of pain and had six week of fun during recovery.

Jesus basically did the same thing.

Oh, and make sure you've read Ladewig's post above.....

Actually I have spoken and listened to many pastors preach, and most of them have mentioned from time to time in their teaching that when it comes time for a professing atheist to die, a lot of them have a change of heart at the end of their lives and call these Pastors to their bedside to pray with them to accept Christ.

Sheesh, are you brainwashed. No offense, but it really sounds like it.

Well, of course you are going to believe whatever a pastor tells you - they never lie nor exaggerate, because they have Christ in them.

Yup, completely reliable sources.....

gypsey

11th July 2009, 09:02 AM

kurious_kathy

Actually I have spoken and listened to many pastors preach, and most of them have mentioned from time to time in their teaching that when it comes time for a professing atheist to die, a lot of them have a change of heart at the end of their lives and call these Pastors to their bedside to pray with them to accept Christ.

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/thum_106514a58a8ce37d27.jpg (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=16941)

you can't be serious
:dl:

Mashuna

11th July 2009, 09:39 AM

Aren't we glad we do live in a time where there are many miracles of healing through medicine?

It's funny how God couldn't be bothered to heal these diseases before people came up with their own cures, isn't it? I think God's a bit of a plagiarist, don't you, Kathy?

galla

11th July 2009, 11:13 AM

Tricky

11th July 2009, 12:18 PM

Actually I have spoken and listened to many pastors preach, and most of them have mentioned from time to time in their teaching that when it comes time for a professing atheist to die, a lot of them have a change of heart at the end of their lives and call these Pastors to their bedside to pray with them to accept Christ.

I strongly suspect they were lapsed or cultural Christians, not atheists - although to a pastor (and possibly you, considering they weren't saved yet) I'm sure that's the same thing.
That's probably true in some cases. Maybe not in others. But what does it say about your religion when it preys on the old, sick and dying for converts? They are targetting people who are willing to try anything, even magic, to find a way of escaping death. Comforting? Perhaps. True? Not in the least, based on evidence.

So religion can comfort afflicted people. This is no surprise. If it could actually heal their afflictions or keep them from dying (in a way that everyone could witness) then it would be a lot more impressive.

soylent

11th July 2009, 01:06 PM

What I want to know is why we humans sometimes blame God...

When you claim to be omnipotent you tend to get blamed whenever bad stuff(tm) happens. It works the other way around to; Chester Sullenburger pulls of an amazing emergency landing in the Hudson river and next thing you know people are trying to steal all the credit for their favorite figment.

...(or deny him)...

Why do you deny the existance of invisible, pink unicorns Kathy?

...or even the god of this world, Satan?

Yahweh and its proponents claim it to be omnipotent. If that claim is true Satan is only there because Yahweh created it and let it do what it does.

See how many have turned from God because of suffering and pain and the really sad thing is when this happens people lose and Satan wins.

People killed by Yahweh in the bible: countless.
People killed by Satan in the bible: zero.

You know what? If Satan and Yahweh exist I'm siding with Satan.

Riddle me this, what is a mans soul worth to you?

Nothing.

Atheists might find a certain amount of freedom in the now, but what about eternity?

If your pet god exists I'm morally obliged to side with Satan.

Is it really worth denying Christ and losing your soul??

I don't have a soul Kathy, and neither do you.

Pup

12th July 2009, 08:52 AM

Actually I have spoken and listened to many pastors preach, and most of them have mentioned from time to time in their teaching that when it comes time for a professing atheist to die, a lot of them have a change of heart at the end of their lives and call these Pastors to their bedside to pray with them to accept Christ.

That doesn't answer my question:

You've claimed that you don't believe in any other religion, and are staking everything on this particular one. At that very last moment, are you going to reconsider and bring in a representative of some other religion and accept their god, just in case you're wrong, so you won't go to their hell?

If you think it's good that other people change their beliefs at the last minute, just in case, are you planning on it too? It seems to me that if you think it's good for other people, it would be good for you too, just in case the afterlives of other religions are real and yours isn't.

Foster Zygote

12th July 2009, 10:03 AM

Foster Zygote

12th July 2009, 10:14 AM

You could say I just got tired of living life on my own terms, but I see most of you aren't there yet. Maybe you'll never get where I am now but I can always hope you do.
Living life on my terms has resulted in a loving marriage and a beautiful son, many dear friends and a pleasant life. You keep saying that Jesus can make me happy like you. But I'm already happy.

kurious_kathy

12th July 2009, 03:03 PM

Can you address the nonsense that you have already posted before adding new nonsense to the list? Outside of the Bible there are no documented accounts of this event - despite Matthew describing the event as being accompanied by an earthquake and the bodies of the saints rising from their graves and walking among the living. You would think that is the type of thing that would get written down, yet it wasn't.

Yes there is plenty of extrabiblical evidence available. I suggest you google extrabiblical references of Jesus and read through the pages of articles discussing it.

I will link one reference for you here to CARM which is a ministry I trust to be a reliable source of info...
http://www.carm.org/christianity/bible/non-biblical-accounts-new-testament-events-andor-people

kurious_kathy

12th July 2009, 03:08 PM

Living life on my terms has resulted in a loving marriage and a beautiful son, many dear friends and a pleasant life. You keep saying that Jesus can make me happy like you. But I'm already happy.

Did I use the word happy? I think I have more implied that Jesus can give you peace that surpasses all understanding.

I have more peace in knowing once my life is over in this world, I will go onto the next which will be far greater than this one could ever be.

JFrankA

12th July 2009, 03:59 PM

Did I use the word happy? I think I have more implied that Jesus can give you peace that surpasses all understanding.

I have more peace in knowing once my life is over in this world, I will go onto the next which will be far greater than this one could ever be.

I have more peace knowing that once I die, I'm done. I get to enjoy what I can here without worrying about some omnipotent being might be thinking. And knowing that what he might be thinking was only a guess anyway.

I don't have to worry about saying prayers or doing rituals on time, I don't have worry about if I do something for someone, that I might be doing it wrong according to this unknowable being.

When I have evil or bad thoughts, and don't act on them, I don't worry if here is an all-knowing being reading my mind and judging me right then and there, even though I'd never act upon them.

If someone disagrees with me about religion, I am not obligated to change their religion or even need to attempt to change them in order to appease that same being.

I have no big brother watching me. I have no "reward" to lose when I die.

And guess what, I still am a good person.

In other words, I am at peace. More so, I feel, than you ever could. You are still trying to get to that place.

paximperium

12th July 2009, 04:28 PM

JFrankA

12th July 2009, 04:47 PM

I don't believe you.
Everything you've ever written is about fear. Fear of punishment; of doing wrong; of being attacked by Satan; of going to hell; of knowledge; of reality and especially of god.

No KK, your life is filled with fear and I have no interest in it.

Ditto.

Beautifully put, Paximperium

Sun Countess

12th July 2009, 05:06 PM

Ditto squared.

KK, if your argument is that you're more peaceful because of your beliefs, I ain't buying it. You seem frantic and fearful.

eta: And what's wrong with a little happiness?

Pantaz

12th July 2009, 05:25 PM

Elizabeth I

12th July 2009, 05:27 PM

Foster Zygote

12th July 2009, 06:29 PM

Did I use the word happy? I think I have more implied that Jesus can give you peace that surpasses all understanding.

I have more peace in knowing that once my life is over in this world, I will go onto the next which will be far greater than this one could ever be.
Whereas I take peace from the fact that I will have had wonderful experiences in my finite life and will leave the world to my son and any future children I have. They will go on to experience lives of their own and pass on the love I have given them to descendants of mine whom I will never even meet, but will exist because of the love I shared with my wife and the family we created together.

Hokulele

12th July 2009, 08:33 PM

Did I use the word happy? I think I have more implied that Jesus can give you peace that surpasses all understanding.

Or, Jesus can damn you to eternal torture. Nice guy.

Well, he could if he existed...

Rasmus

13th July 2009, 04:12 AM

Did I use the word happy? I think I have more implied that Jesus can give you peace that surpasses all understanding.

If it surpasses all understanding, then how can you claim to know about it? You say it yourself: You do not understand it. you could not understand it!

You might very well believe things to be so, but you cannot possibly know it and therefore you cannot vouch for things to be so. To do it anyhow is deeply dishonest of you.

I have more peace in knowing once my life is over in this world, I will go onto the next which will be far greater than this one could ever be.

But you said you can't know that!

And even if you could know it, how arrogant do you have to be to presume to know how you will be judged in the end? You go on and on about how things would surpass our ability to understand, and yet you claim to know what God will be deciding in the end?

And then you have the nerve to expect us to belive you?

jimmygun

13th July 2009, 08:18 AM

I don't find atheism comforting at all.

I too do not find atheism comforting. It is not meant to be comforting. It is challenging and demanding. It means being the author of your own destiny and carrying the responsibility of your life on your own shoulders. I do not have the luxury of shifting the blame for my actions to a god or a devil.

I do find atheism to be vastly rewarding though and worth every effort.

jimmygun

13th July 2009, 09:25 AM

Did I use the word happy? I think I have more implied that Jesus can give you peace that surpasses all understanding.

I have more peace in knowing once my life is over in this world, I will go onto the next which will be far greater than this one could ever be.

Kathy...A serious question, and one with a follow up question...

Why do you care if I or anyone you don't know comes to Christ or not. Be serious in your answer and try not to just quote scripture. I would like to know why it is of such importance to you personally that someone else be born again.

Phage0070

13th July 2009, 09:34 AM

I would like to know why it is of such importance to you personally that someone else be born again.

It is because her friend in the sky will murder her if she does not try.

JFrankA

13th July 2009, 10:02 AM

I have more peace in knowing once my life is over in this world, I will go onto the next which will be far greater than this one could ever be.

Do you see what your "peace" has done? You've taken a positive, friendly thread, one with mutual admiration and acceptance from both sides of the atheist/theist debate, and turned it into yet another agruement thread.

You call that "peace"? Really?

realpaladin

13th July 2009, 01:25 PM

Kathy, you have not responded to my post: http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=4893118#post4893118

Is that because you have no responses to it?

Or did you object the mentioning of sex?

Ladewig

13th July 2009, 04:13 PM

Yes there is plenty of extrabiblical evidence available. I suggest you google extrabiblical references of Jesus and read through the pages of articles discussing it.

No, there is not extra biblical evidence of the resurrection. Please see this thread (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=147997)

I will link one reference for you here to CARM which is a ministry I trust to be a reliable source of info...
http://www.carm.org/christianity/bible/non-biblical-accounts-new-testament-events-andor-people

You are claiming a site to be a reliable source of info. I can't imagine anyone less qualified to determine what is to be considered reliable. My point is proven by the exchange about Bibles and religious clothing in the UK.

P.J. Denyer

14th July 2009, 04:32 AM

why must god punish sin?

ocd?:d

DOC

16th July 2009, 04:04 PM

Outside of the Bible there are no documented accounts of this event -

There were 10 Non-Christian written sources for Christ and/ or Christianity within 150 years of Christ's life compared to only 9 Non-Christian written sources for Tiberius Caesar, the Roman emperor at the time of Christ.

From the book "I don't have enough faith to be an atheist" by Norman Geisler (pg. 223). The following facts were derived collectively from the 10 "Non-Christian" sources. These sources include such people as Josephus, Tacitus, Celsus etc.

1) Jesus lived during time of Tiberius Caesar.

2) He lived a virtuous life.

3) He was a wonder worker.

4) He had a brother {some say cousin} name James.

5) He was acclaimed to be the Messiah.

6) He was crucified under Pontius Pilate.

7) He was crucified on the eve of the Jewish Passover.

8) Darkness and an earthquake occurred when he died.

9) His disciples believe he rose from the dead.

10) His disciples were willing to die for their belief.

11) Christianity spread as far as Rome.

12) His disciples denied the Roman gods and worshiped Jesus as God.

Remember these are all facts that can be found in "Non-Christian" independent sources.

...despite Matthew describing the event as being accompanied by an earthquake and the bodies of the saints rising from their graves and walking among the living. You would think that is the type of thing that would get written down, yet it wasn't.

As I have shown above, darkness and an earthquake was reported by a non-Christian source.

And the bible says the saints arose and appeared to many. I guess 8 and above could be considered many. Ok if one out of ten people of the time could read and write then there is a good chance few or none of the people whom the saints appeared to could write. And even if a few could write, why write down something that very few people can read anyway. I have never written down one word about the events of 911 to any of my friends or family. There was no newspapers at the time, paper hadn't even been invented yet. Word of mouth was probably the best way to advance news at the time.

Hokulele

16th July 2009, 04:06 PM

There were 10 Non-Christian written sources for Christ and/ or Christianity within 150 years of Christ's life compared to only 9 Non-Christian written sources for Tiberius Caesar, the Roman emperor at the time of Christ.

And, as has been discussed to pieces elsewhere, not one single bit of that is evidence of the resurrection. Evidence that someone named Jesus lived? Sure. Evidence that people strongly believe he rose from the dead? Sure. Evidence that he actually did so? Nope.

DOC

16th July 2009, 04:22 PM

And, as has been discussed to pieces elsewhere, not one single bit of that is evidence of the resurrection. Evidence that someone named Jesus lived? Sure. Evidence that people strongly believe he rose from the dead? Sure. Evidence that he actually did so? Nope.

Sorry, video didn't exist at the time. We'll have to settle for the eyewitness testimony of gospel writers Matthew and John; and also Paul, and I believe Peter mentions it in Peter I.

And we'll also have to wonder what event caused 11 of 12 apostles to be martyred. And additionally what event caused us to be talking about this man 2000 years later. If you still don't believe it happened then that is your free will choice.

I go into more detail about all of this in my Evidence thread currently in the History and Literature Forum.

paximperium

16th July 2009, 04:27 PM

Sorry, video didn't exist at the time. We'll have to settle for the eyewitness testimony of gospel writers Matthew and John; and also Paul, and I believe Peter mentions it in Peter I.

And we'll also have to wonder what event caused 11 of 12 apostles to be martyred. And additionally what event caused us to be talking about this man 2000 years later. If you still don't believe it happened then that is your free will choice. So that's a NO, on the evidence of the resurrection. Thanks for coming clean.

I go into more detail about all of this in my Evidence thread currently in the History and Literature Forum.You attempted to and people are still eagerly awaiting for this "evidence".

Hokulele

16th July 2009, 06:04 PM

I go into more detail about all of this in my Evidence thread currently in the History and Literature Forum.

Too bad none of your detail rises to the level of evidence.

joobz

16th July 2009, 06:10 PM

oh, dear me. he's attempting to get more people to read the stupid that is Geisler.
I can't think of a better way to create atheists than that.

Elizabeth I

16th July 2009, 07:09 PM

And we'll also have to wonder what event caused 11 of 12 apostles to be martyred.

...and once again you conveniently ignore the fact that a hell of a lot more than 11 martyrs have given themselves up for Islam in just the past few years. But you will not agree that that fact proves that Islam is true.

bokonon

16th July 2009, 07:17 PM

Sorry, video didn't exist at the time.
"If you'd come today you could have reached the whole nation
Israel in 4 BC had no mass communication"

That's some pretty shoddy planning.

Ladewig

16th July 2009, 07:58 PM

From the book "I don't have enough faith to be an atheist" by Norman Geisler (pg. 223).

I don't have the book. Can you provide an online citation?

The following facts were derived collectively from the 10 "Non-Christian" sources. These sources include such people as Josephus, Tacitus, Celsus etc.

So you agree with the fact that the crucifixion was NOT "well documented historically with hundreds of eyewitnesses." Thanks for helping call BS on Kathy.

1) Jesus lived during time of Tiberius Caesar.

2) He lived a virtuous life.

3) He was a wonder worker.

4) He had a brother {some say cousin} name James.

5) He was acclaimed to be the Messiah.

10) His disciples were willing to die for their belief.

11) Christianity spread as far as Rome.

12) His disciples denied the Roman gods and worshiped Jesus as God.

WTF do these claims have to do with the assertion that the crucifixion was "well documented historically with hundreds of eyewitnesses"?

I'll address 6-9 when I see your sources.