Will 9-11 Truth welcome white supremacists and Holocaust deniers?

[parky76]

As the months and years go on, without a new investigation, criminal prosecutions, or any other progress for the "9-11 truth movement" I see these folks becoming more and more desperate. Clearly their ranks have shrank significantly since 2007..they can barely get 30 people to a truther meeting in cities with populations of 5 million and more.

My question is: out of desperation and a need for resources and support, will the truthers eventually accept membership from the ranks of neo-nazis, white supremacists, and holocaust-deniers?

Officially, they reject these people. But we all know from their various blogs, internet forums, and web sites, that these types of people are already and have been a part of the truther scene for some time. And with the election of a black man as President and the confirmation of a black man as Attorney General, white supremacists and neo-nazis are up in arms.

I hope truthers will not openly welcome these people in, but as time goes on and their goals fail to be achieved, I think they are likely to do so.

Its not like they have anything to lose.

[J. Wellington Wimpy]

will the truthers eventually accept membership from the ranks of neo-nazis, white supremacists, and holocaust-deniers?

Incorrect verb tense. ;)

[parky76]

Incorrect verb tense. ;)

I'm talking folks on the level of Metzger, David Duke, and the real hard core Nazis.

[NWO Sentryman]

I mean, its only logical, since they have creationists and mormons in their fold as well as snake oil salesmen.

[J. Wellington Wimpy]

I mean, its only logical, since they have creationists and mormons in their fold as well as snake oil salesmen.

Don't forget the heroin addicts (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=4841702&postcount=2) and murderers (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=4852248&postcount=115), as well.

I'm talking folks on the level of Metzger, David Duke, and the real hard core Nazis.

Check out the Twoofer quotient over at swastika fetish glory holes such as (for instance) Stormfront, sometime. Those mouth-breathers hold Jews personally responsible for 9/11, the Black Plague, assorted earthquakes, the sad state of the Seattle Mariners' pitching staff and the cancellation of Manimal. (http://www.tv.com/manimal/show/2154/summary.html) :boggled:

[RedIbis]

I mean, its only logical, since they have creationists and mormons in their fold as well as snake oil salesmen.

Are there creationists and mormons among the ranks of those who accept the official story?

[Foolmewunz]

I mean, its only logical, since they have creationists and mormons in their fold as well as snake oil salesmen.

That's a pretty broad brush you're painting with, there. I don't know if I'd put Mormons (or creationists, for that matter) in the same camp as Nazis and Holocaust Deniers.

[T.A.M.]

Are there creationists and mormons among the ranks of those who accept the official story?

There are people of all rank and file, race, color, creed, who accept the official account of 9/11, as the vast majority of the human race does.

Parky's question, which I know you know (you are being sarcastically disingenuous), is into the truther ACTIVIST community, will they begin to attract members of the neo-nazi, holocaust denial ACTIVIST community. So what do you think Red? Will they, out of desperation start to collect that slice of society?


TAM:)

[NWO Sentryman]

That's a pretty broad brush you're painting with, there. I don't know if I'd put Mormons (or creationists, for that matter) in the same camp as Nazis and Holocaust Deniers.

Steven e Jones.

They reject any evidence to the contrary of their beliefs.

They also use any grain in the sand to prove an ocean wrong.

Peer reviewed journals and investigations mena nothing to them.

they also peddle pseudoscience.

[T.A.M.]

Steven e Jones.

They reject any evidence to the contrary of their beliefs.

They also use any grain in the sand to prove an ocean wrong.

Peer reviewed journals and investigations mena nothing to them.

they also peddle pseudoscience.

There is a mormon who is a long standing, sensible and logical debunker on this website... can't remember if it is State of Grace or Sword of Truth?

TAM:)

[NWO Sentryman]

Are there creationists and mormons among the ranks of those who accept the official story?

yes, but you are missing the point. What i was saying was that tWOOfers, Holocaust Deniers and Creationist use similar methods of arguing.

I.E. saying their oppoinents are evil (Satanist, Shill etc.)

Ignoring vast amounts of evidence (ancient fossils, concentration camps, the fact that the towers sent debris everywhere)

promote pseudoscientific theories (earth created in 6 days, zyklon-b being non-fatal, Billiard balls proving controlled demlition)

And they also interlink from time to time (American Free Press, WeAreChange etc.)

ETA: they also claim any evidence to the contrary is planted or faked (ancient fossils being planted by Satan, Concentration camps being faked, No planes hit the Twin Towers or the Pentagon)

[parky76]

Those mouth-breathers hold Jews personally responsible for 9/11, the Black Plague, assorted earthquakes, the sad state of the Seattle Mariners' pitching staff and the cancellation of Manimal. (http://www.tv.com/manimal/show/2154/summary.html) :boggled:

always liked...Manimal.

:(

damn joos!!!!

[Foolmewunz]

Steven e Jones.

They reject any evidence to the contrary of their beliefs.

They also use any grain in the sand to prove an ocean wrong.

Peer reviewed journals and investigations mena nothing to them.

they also peddle pseudoscience.

And..... What do Nazis do/have Nazis done? Is the above list really what you'd expect to see if you looked up a history of the Nazis?

Look, it's pretty simple. If you don't like Mormons, then don't like Mormons - but on their own. You don't need to make baseless comparisons to Nazis and Deniers.

[parky76]

I don't associate Mormons with Nazis. Mormon beliefs aren't any more crazy then traditional Christian or Jewish beliefs.

[johnny karate]

Since 9/11 Truth activism has always been rooted in a fear and hatred of The Government, they will naturally transition to right-wing extremism since that is where all the opposition to the current administration lies.

[NWO Sentryman]

Sorry, i was not referring to mormons in General.

What i meant to say was their means of proving their claims.

And please, before anyone comes in with Godwin's Law, i am just comparing.

I have no problem with Mormons, i was jsut comparing means of proving claims.:o

[J. Wellington Wimpy]

Since 9/11 Truth activism has always been rooted in a fear and hatred of The Government, they will naturally transition to right-wing extremism since that is where all the opposition to the current administration lies.

The day Rosie O'Donnell, Michael Moore or Cindy Sheehan "transition to right-wing extremism," I will buy you a brand new car.:rolleyes:

[BasqueArch]

That's a pretty broad brush you're painting with, there. I don't know if I'd put Mormons (or creationists, for that matter) in the same camp as Nazis and Holocaust Deniers.

Mormons, Holocaust Deniers, Neo-Nazis, Creationists, Moon landing deniers, NWO/Illuminati/Masons, UFO, 9/11, JFK conspiracists, Pol Pot/Lenin/Mao/Castro/Kim Jung Communists, Christians, Jews, Muslims, New Agers -

Same camp, different tents, one cafeteria.

[RedIbis]

There are people of all rank and file, race, color, creed, who accept the official account of 9/11, as the vast majority of the human race does.

Parky's question, which I know you know (you are being sarcastically disingenuous), is into the truther ACTIVIST community, will they begin to attract members of the neo-nazi, holocaust denial ACTIVIST community. So what do you think Red? Will they, out of desperation start to collect that slice of society?


TAM:)

I wasn't being sarcastically disingenuous; I was pointing out the problem with that kind of logic.

As for your direct question, unless you can point me to the membership page of the Truth Movement, I have never understood this idea that there is a monolithic entity that one can or cannot join. Sure there are lots of groups, such as WAC or AE911, but Truther, Twoofer, Truth Movement are all labels to conflate your opponent's position, so that if a Holocaust denier were to join one of the abovementioned groups, all of your opponents can be demonized.

[J. Wellington Wimpy]

... and, almost as if they'd both been waiting anxiously for parky to post this precise query:

"Wow, if you need to get your quota of "Jews and Zionists did 9-11", it's all here in this incredible interview between McNutty [Cynthia McKinney] and McNumbnuts [Daryl Bradford Smith]." (http://screwloosechange.blogspot.com/2009/06/cynthia-mckinney-and-daryl-bradford.html)

Looks like Twoof really IS stranger than fiction... ;)

[parky76]

... and, almost as if they'd both been waiting anxiously for parky to post this precise query:

"Wow, if you need to get your quota of "Jews and Zionists did 9-11", it's all here in this incredible interview between McNutty [Cynthia McKinney] and McNumbnuts [Daryl Bradford Smith]." (http://screwloosechange.blogspot.com/2009/06/cynthia-mckinney-and-daryl-bradford.html)

Looks like Twoof really IS stranger than fiction... ;)

i love the "disclaimer" at the beginning. ;)

[tfk]

Mormons, Holocaust Deniers, Neo-Nazis, Creationists, Moon landing deniers, NWO/Illuminati/Masons, UFO, 9/11, JFK conspiracists, Pol Pot/Lenin/Mao/Castro/Kim Jung Communists, Christians, Jews, Muslims, New Agers -

Same camp, different tents, one cafeteria.

LMAO.

You gotta make 'em eat in shifts, tho.

If you don't, the food fights are HORRIBLE...!!

tom

[CYiNCE]

unless you can point me to the membership page of the Truth Movement, I have never understood this idea that there is a monolithic entity that one can or cannot join. Sure there are lots of groups, such as WAC or AE911, but Truther, Twoofer, Truth Movement are all labels to conflate your opponent's position, so that if a Holocaust denier were to join one of the abovementioned groups, all of your opponents can be demonized.

Yep. There seems to be an effort here to equate truthers with holocaust deniers, pedos, drug users etc. If this was reversed there would be a chorus of poisoning the well fallacy.

[parky76]

but Truther, Truth Movement are all labels to conflate your opponent's position

these are labels YOU guys use to describe YOUR so-called movement.

we didn't invent these terms..we simply use them to their full logical conclusion.

[johnny karate]

There seems to be an effort here to equate truthers with holocaust deniers, pedos, drug users etc.

Trust me, it's not too taxing an effort.

If this was reversed there would be a chorus of poisoning the well fallacy.

And that chorus would be as wrong as the implication you're making that it's the case here. There's a difference between saying someone is wrong because they're a right-wing nutjob, and saying they're wrong and a right-wing nutjob. It's a subtle, but important, distinction.

[RedIbis]

these are labels YOU guys use to describe YOUR so-called movement.

we didn't invent these terms..we simply use them to their full logical conclusion.

I don't use any of those terms to describe myself or my research efforts. Yes, there are some people who do refer to themselves as truthers and belonging to a truth movement, and I find it equally ridiculous.

[BigAl]

Yep. There seems to be an effort here to equate truthers with holocaust deniers, pedos, drug users etc. If this was reversed there would be a chorus of poisoning the well fallacy.

What makes holocaust deniers and anti-Semites, etc, such a large proportion of the "Truth Movement" is that there are so damn few Truthers.

[T.A.M.]

I wasn't being sarcastically disingenuous; I was pointing out the problem with that kind of logic.

As for your direct question, unless you can point me to the membership page of the Truth Movement, I have never understood this idea that there is a monolithic entity that one can or cannot join. Sure there are lots of groups, such as WAC or AE911, but Truther, Twoofer, Truth Movement are all labels to conflate your opponent's position, so that if a Holocaust denier were to join one of the abovementioned groups, all of your opponents can be demonized.

The Truth Movement consists of all those who are ACTIVELY discussing and promoting the various conspiracy theories surrounding 9/11. Their number is likely smaller than the number of people who simply do not believe they were told the entire truth about 9/11.

For the love of god man, people within that group refer to THEMSELVES as the truth movement. Whether you consider yourself a part of it or not, does not matter, but your failure to recognize it is...bizarre.

TAM:)

[T.A.M.]

Yep. There seems to be an effort here to equate truthers with holocaust deniers, pedos, drug users etc. If this was reversed there would be a chorus of poisoning the well fallacy.

you'd have to be making an argument, and then make the statement that "truthers are holocaust deniers" to use that fallacy appropriately. Since no argument is being made, with a subsequent "poisoning the well", your comments are not correct.

And I think the point here is not to equate the truthers with such, but to make comment on whether they seem to attract a higher than normal percentage of such types, and if so, why?

TAM:)

[T.A.M.]

I don't use any of those terms to describe myself or my research efforts. Yes, there are some people who do refer to themselves as truthers and belonging to a truth movement, and I find it equally ridiculous.

great, so you find it ridiculous. Well done. So now what?

TAM:)

[dudalb]

I'm talking folks on the level of Metzger, David Duke, and the real hard core Nazis.

Considering some of whom they have greeted with open arms, you bet.

[Allen773]

They'll welcome any scum into their pathetic cult.

[dudalb]

Since 9/11 Truth activism has always been rooted in a fear and hatred of The Government, they will naturally transition to right-wing extremism since that is where all the opposition to the current administration lies.

Quite a few will.
What will happen to some of those on the Raidcal Left who bought 9/11 Truth out of a deep hatred for Bush will be interesting. I think they might not join the far right, but go into a radical "Obama has betrayed the people" mode from a militant left perspective.

[parky76]

I don't use any of those terms to describe myself or my research efforts. Yes, there are some people who do refer to themselves as truthers and belonging to a truth movement, and I find it equally ridiculous.

how about...most people.

most people who are actively involved in the research and advocacy of 9-11 conspiracy theories refer to themselves as part of the "9-11 truth movement".

deal with it.

[RedIbis]

great, so you find it ridiculous. Well done. So now what?

TAM:)

I believe you are mature enough not to affix the truther label, but as you can see just here on the forum, if you question anything about the official story, you are branded a twoofer.

[jhunter1163]

There is a mormon who is a long standing, sensible and logical debunker on this website... can't remember if it is State of Grace or Sword of Truth?

TAM:)

It's Sword of Truth. Good guy, good debunker.

[Tweeter]

Are there creationists and mormons among the ranks of those who accept the official story?

Exactly. Debunkers say 98% of the worlds population believes the os and also a guy that lives in the clouds.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

It's Sword of Truth. Good guy, good debunker.


Awwww... I wub you guys too. :grouphug:

Yes, I am a mormon, and I have been very vocal here in my opposition to fellow mormon Steven Jones's antics and his very poor choice of friends.
(http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=79316)

BTW, I'm not really a "debunker". To me, that title applies more to those who have done the real work, like Gravy, James B., Ryan Mackey and Brainster just to name a few. Most of us here are merely the beneficiaries of those who have led the way.

[jhunter1163]

I'm not a Mormon, but it's very discouraging to me to see the term "Mormon" used as some kind of epithet, as if Jones' faith makes any difference in the quality of his work. I've been as critical of Jones as anyone, but that's because his science is fundamentally flawed and wrong, not because of his LDS affiliation.

[NWO Sentryman]

Awwww... I wub you guys too. :grouphug:

Yes, I am a mormon, and I have been very vocal here in my opposition to fellow mormon Steven Jones's antics and his very poor choice of friends.
(http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=79316)

BTW, I'm not really a "debunker". To me, that title applies more to those who have done the real work, like Gravy, James B., Ryan Mackey and Brainster just to name a few. Most of us here are merely the beneficiaries of those who have led the way.

Good to have you around. Sorry for any comments about mormons.

I Hope we can get off to a better start than with my comments on Steven "thermite cutter" Jones

[johnny karate]

I believe you are mature enough not to affix the truther label, but as you can see just here on the forum, if you question anything about the official story, you are branded a twoofer.

Honest questions from people interested in open and honest discussion is not enough to earn the label of "twoofer".

It's those who flat out deny the official version, but disingenuously couch that denial as merely "questioning" who earn that label.

It's those who quote-mine, cherry-pick, and outright lie to bolster their "questioning" who earn that label.

It's those who demand answers to their "questions", and ignore those answers who earn that label.

It's behavior that earns one the label of "twoofer". Change your behavior if you don't like the label. But I assure you, you've definitely earned it.

[parky76]

I believe you are mature enough not to affix the truther label, but as you can see just here on the forum, if you question anything about the official story, you are branded a twoofer.

not true. it depends on your question, and whether or not it is just a rhetorical question in order to get more converts to trutherism.

even i have a few questions about 9-11. but i dont believe there was some nepharious secret conspiracy to falsely blaim 19 arab muslims for the attacks.

thats just silly.

[Walter Ego]

... and, almost as if they'd both been waiting anxiously for parky to post this precise query:

"Wow, if you need to get your quota of "Jews and Zionists did 9-11", it's all here in this incredible interview between McNutty [Cynthia McKinney] and McNumbnuts [Daryl Bradford Smith]." (http://screwloosechange.blogspot.com/2009/06/cynthia-mckinney-and-daryl-bradford.html)

Looks like Twoof really IS stranger than fiction... ;)

McKinney's car keys and some telephones get misplaced so it must be the fault of that Jewish guy who hanging around. :eye-poppi

An excerpt from the transcript of the McKinney interview from the show's website where McKinney blames a spy for defeating her reelection to Congress:


Q: I called Washington the “District of Criminals,” a “viper pit.” Now, you’vesurvived, Congresswoman, six terms there. Can you give us some detail of, which is quite obvious if you look into it, you have an open-mind, that Washington is under a state, that Washington, DC, is under a state of siege by a very powerful group. You named them a pro-Israel group. Can you give me some more details about theharrassment (sic) that over your twelve years you suffered?

McKinney: Well if I were to give an accounting I would think I would use up ALL of your time that you have allotted; I think that what I’ll do is I’ll pick one story that could be illustrative of some of the things that happened. During the 2002 re-election campaign, there was a gentleman who was in my campaign headquarters, who identified himself as an observer, a political observer of our campaign, and he would sit in a rocking chair with my father at the campaign headquarters and they would share stories about the campaign, the state of politics, and that sort of thing. Thisgentelman (sic) be-friended (sic) my FATHER; well, after the election was over and all kinds of things happened, like the loss of the keys to the vans that would transport people, to the loss of the phones from the phone-banking room that was an off-site place that no one was supposed to know the location of, this particular gentleman who had identified himself as a stateless Palestinian went on the television and announced himself as the Southern Regional Buraeu (sic) Chief for one of the pro-Israel organizations. So our campaign was disrupted and TOTALLY disrupted, particularly on election day, and that was the link; we didn’t know until election but then this particular volunteer showed-up on television…

Q: Can you put a name to this guy; is this guy still around?...

McKinney: I don’t know if he’s still around, but he ended-up being a member of the Anti-Defamation League. There are MANY pro-Israel organizations that have a political impact and conduct political business, and the Anti-Defamation League is one of them, you have the American-Israeli Public Affairs Committee is another one of them, and those are among the better known politcal (sic) organizations."

http://adamholland.blogspot.com/2009/05/cynthia-mckinney-interviewed-on-far.html

[bill smith]

Quite a few will.
What will happen to some of those on the Raidcal Left who bought 9/11 Truth out of a deep hatred for Bush will be interesting. I think they might not join the far right, but go into a radical "Obama has betrayed the people" mode from a militant left perspective.

You think a little 'prevenge' might be in order ? lol

[beachnut]

I'm not a Mormon, but it's very discouraging to me to see the term "Mormon" used as some kind of epithet, as if Jones' faith makes any difference in the quality of his work. I've been as critical of Jones as anyone, but that's because his science is fundamentally flawed and wrong, not because of his LDS affiliation.

It is not Jones' faith that makes him an idiot on 911 issues. This is true.

NeoNAZIs and Holocaust deniers are predisposed to believe in the delusions of 911 Truth. They have faulty logic at work mixed with shallow or moronic research; a perfect fit for the anti-intellectual truth movement.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Since 9/11 Truth activism has always been rooted in a fear and hatred of The Government, they will naturally transition to right-wing extremism since that is where all the opposition to the current administration lies.

Hatred and fear of the US government also frequently ends up in left wing extremism. Both extremes tend to occur regardless of who is in charge.

[leftysergeant]

The twoof movement got off the ground largely through the efforts of Nazi jerks like Bollyn and D.B.Smith. They are what Pierce called "legals" in the Organization. Face it, the movement is already anchored to a pile of Nazi whether they want it or not.

[T.A.M.]

Awwww... I wub you guys too. :grouphug:

Yes, I am a mormon, and I have been very vocal here in my opposition to fellow mormon Steven Jones's antics and his very poor choice of friends.
(http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=79316)

BTW, I'm not really a "debunker". To me, that title applies more to those who have done the real work, like Gravy, James B., Ryan Mackey and Brainster just to name a few. Most of us here are merely the beneficiaries of those who have led the way.

Interesting that you say that. I have seen many of the truthers say this as well. I disagree.

Debunker:
Someone who ACTIVELY disputes and attempts to prove false the arguments or tenets of a conspiracy theory.

Truther:
Someone who ACTIVELY promotes alternative theories to the official account of the attacks of 9/11.

The above are my definitions. Mike, Gravy, etc... are heroes within the debunking community, and they have researched and collected enormous amounts of information to use to debunk the myths, but I think those who use that information, and from time to time provide new information (yes it does happen) and new insight (happens quite often) are equally deserving of the title "debunker" (as you can see from my definitions above).

In the same vein, I consider people beyond Dylan Avery, David Ray Griffin, and Steven Jones "truthers". For instance, killtown, Ultima1, RICHARD GAGE, while contributing nothing NEW or unique, do ACTIVELY PROMOTE the tenets of the alternative theories about 9/11...they are truthers.

TAM:)

[T.A.M.]

I believe you are mature enough not to affix the truther label, but as you can see just here on the forum, if you question anything about the official story, you are branded a twoofer.

I may be mature enough, but that does not mean I do not. To be honest, it is a convenience to do so. The fact is, labels work. Now do I mean it in a derogatory manner...not likely, although I personally do not agree with the beliefs and opinions regarding 9/1 that "truthers" have, I personally use the term as a convenient label, and nothing more.

I know this annoys you/bothers you, and for that I am sorry, but it is something I do, and that is that.

TAM:)

[RedIbis]

I may be mature enough, but that does not mean I do not. To be honest, it is a convenience to do so. The fact is, labels work. Now do I mean it in a derogatory manner...not likely, although I personally do not agree with the beliefs and opinions regarding 9/1 that "truthers" have, I personally use the term as a convenient label, and nothing more.

I know this annoys you/bothers you, and for that I am sorry, but it is something I do, and that is that.

TAM:)

My bad. I thought at some point you said you resist labeling people. I gave you too much credit.

[johnny karate]

Somebody get RedIbis a tissue.

[Stellafane]

Although it's probably true that those attracted by 9/11 denialism tend to buy into other far-fetched concepts, I don't think it's an ideological thing. Instead, I see Trutherism as less a doctrine and more a will, a will to feel special and significant. Most of us probably feel this will, but the difference is we usually find healthier ways to express it -- friends, family, career, a rewarding hobby. But for whatever reason, there's always a few that either can't or won't find satisfaction in these outlets.

I've always suspected that a compensatory over-inflated sense of self is somewhere in the mix of the typical Truther's psyche. "I know I'm superior and special, but how come no one else sees it? It must be because there's a conspiracy to keep me down! Yeah, that's it! Damn Joos/NWO/insert scapegoat here!!" This must be really attractive for some people, because (1) It explains why, despite their talents and abilities, Truthers aren't more successful in their lives (thus allowing their self-deluded egos to avoid the harsh light of reality and flourish in the murky shadows of fantasy), and (2) It allows them to feel super-extra-special in that they know something really, really, important that the rest of us sheeple are too stupid and blind to grasp. For someone dealing with increasing feelings of alienation and inadequacy, this outlet has got to be very seductive. And the price of admittance is relatively cheap: all you have to to is give up reality (which probably sucked anyway).

That's why 9/11 deniers seem to come from all across the political spectrum. Ideology may still play a part (although I think most of that was more based on the "I hate Bush so anything that reflects badly on him is fine, whether true or not" attitude, rather than true deeply-held convictions). But at the core, I look upon this sad, curious little "movement" primarily as lonely people seeking out each other's company on the cold, barren plains of paranoia.

[T.A.M.]

My bad. I thought at some point you said you resist labeling people. I gave you too much credit.

lol...

labeling is a common human characteristic, and one that has its value...believe it or not. For me it is a matter of mentally organizing someone with respect to their beliefs on something.

For instance. If your political views include right to life, pro low taxes, pro small government, I might call you a CONSERVATIVE. That is a label about your political views.

Likewise, if you were someone who felt the need to get out and march for various causes, I might call you an "activist". Now these are both labels.

Similarly, if you ACTIVELY promote the alternative theories surrounding the 9/11 attacks, I might refer to you as a "truther". For me, it is an easy way (which is what labels in truth are for) to identify your stance/view/approach to something...in this case, the attacks of 9/11.

So you see, you do not have to look at my "labeling" of you, or others, wrt to the word "truther" as a bad thing...

You can still give me credit!!!

TAM;)

[BigAl]

lol...

labeling is a common human characteristic, and one that has its value...believe it or not. For me it is a matter of mentally organizing someone with respect to their beliefs on something.

For instance. If your political views include right to life, pro low taxes, pro small government, I might call you a CONSERVATIVE. That is a label about your political views.



Labels are only constructive in a discussion if and when all parties agree on what the label is a substitute for.

[RedIbis]

This might deserve it's own thread, rather than further derail this one, but I don't think the issue is so much about labels, in general, it's about how "Truther" is used here.

[johnny karate]

This might deserve it's own thread, rather than further derail this one, but I don't think the issue is so much about labels, in general, it's about how "Truther" is used here.

I think giving this topic its own thread is a wonderful idea. Why bother addressing topics actually relevant to the events of 9/11 (many of which already have threads lying fallow due to Truthers like yourself tucking tail and fleeing) when we can talk about something really important like how offended some Truthers are by being called Truthers? Personally, I think us mean ol' debunkers deserve a good chastising.

[RedIbis]

I think giving this topic its own thread is a wonderful idea. Why bother addressing topics actually relevant to the events of 9/11 (many of which already have threads lying fallow due to Truthers like yourself tucking tail and fleeing) when we can talk about something really important like how offended some Truthers are by being called Truthers? Personally, I think us mean ol' debunkers deserve a good chastising.

I would suggest that in a forum based on critical thinking, argumentation, discourse, etc, it's helpful to identify weak rhetorical tactics, such as labeling, an attempt to conflate your opponent's position with those whom you give the same label. It's a disingenuous position from which to argue.

[~enigma~]

Hate to say it but this entire thread is really pointless. We claim to be the critical thinkers and rational ones yet we post stupidity like this sinking to their level? Would someone kindly explain the point? Some of you have said you post this stuff for the benefit of undecided lurkers. Besides my not believing that there are undecided lurkers let me ask you what they are supposed to think about the mass of threads that amount to nothing more than namecalling and character assasination. I told you guys that I once believed in LIHOP and one of the MAJOR reasons i left the TM was because they did nothing but make fun of debunkers only because they believed differently. Of course I understood their arguments were based on half-truths and unscientific to say the least. Now it seems that some of the "debunkers" here are practicing what was strongly condemned when the TM on other forums did it. Kinda ironic wouldn't you guys agree?

[johnny karate]

I would suggest that in a forum based on critical thinking, argumentation, discourse, etc, it's helpful to identify weak rhetorical tactics, such as labeling, an attempt to conflate your opponent's position with those whom you give the same label.

While at the same time allowing you the convenience of avoiding the preponderance of strong arguments to which you have no response. It's a two-for-one deal that allows you to be an intellectual coward and self-righteous.

It's a disingenuous position from which to argue.

From someone who is employing petty and self-serving tactics to avoid larger issues, forgive me if I find your assessment laughable in its irony.

[Stellafane]

Hate to say it but this entire thread is really pointless. We claim to be the critical thinkers and rational ones yet we post stupidity like this sinking to their level? Would someone kindly explain the point? Some of you have said you post this stuff for the benefit of undecided lurkers. Besides my not believing that there are undecided lurkers let me ask you what they are supposed to think about the mass of threads that amount to nothing more than namecalling and character assasination. I told you guys that I once believed in LIHOP and one of the MAJOR reasons i left the TM was because they did nothing but make fun of debunkers only because they believed differently. Of course I understood their arguments were based on half-truths and unscientific to say the least. Now it seems that some of the "debunkers" here are practicing what was strongly condemned when the TM on other forums did it. Kinda ironic wouldn't you guys agree?

Shucks, if you hate to say it...then why did you? Kinda pointless and ironic, wouldn't you agree?

[~enigma~]

Shucks, if you hate to say it...then why did you? Kinda pointless and ironic, wouldn't you agree?
Hate to say it but it was necessary to say. So do you have a comment about it or do you just want to snipe from the sidelines?

[Stellafane]

Hate to say it but it was necessary to say. So do you have a comment about it or do you just want to snipe from the sidelines?

Actually, I have indeed commented about it, but apparently subtlety isn't your strong point.

[~enigma~]

Actually, I have indeed commented about it, but apparently subtlety isn't your strong point.
You commented on the first 4 words but not a thing about the content of the post.

[dudalb]

The twoof movement got off the ground largely through the efforts of Nazi jerks like Bollyn and D.B.Smith. They are what Pierce called "legals" in the Organization. Face it, the movement is already anchored to a pile of Nazi whether they want it or not.


That is conviently ignoring that quite a few on the militant left bought into the Truth Movement because they will believe ANYTHING bad about Bush.
The Truth Movement draws from wackjobs on both sides of the political spectrum. Unless you beleive that all political evil lies on one end of the political spectrum.....

[T.A.M.]

Labels are only constructive in a discussion if and when all parties agree on what the label is a substitute for.

1. I agree.
2. Useful "in a discussion" is not the same as "useful to me".
3. Apart from Red and a few others, most of the truth activists seem fine with the label, especially since they are the ones that came up with it and adopted it as their own.

TAM:)

[T.A.M.]

I would suggest that in a forum based on critical thinking, argumentation, discourse, etc, it's helpful to identify weak rhetorical tactics, such as labeling, an attempt to conflate your opponent's position with those whom you give the same label. It's a disingenuous position from which to argue.

I never use the label as a form of argumentation. An example of such would be,

"ah don't pay him no mind...he is just a truther." that would be, as you have pointed out, a weak form of argumentation.

When I use the term, it is for convenience, not to insult or make little of.

TAM:)

[RedIbis]

3. Apart from Red and a few others, most of the truth activists seem fine with the label, especially since they are the ones that came up with it and adopted it as their own.

TAM:)

Not entirely (http://the911forum.freeforums.org/fighting-the-labels-t61.html).

[RedIbis]

Hate to say it but this entire thread is really pointless. We claim to be the critical thinkers and rational ones yet we post stupidity like this sinking to their level? Would someone kindly explain the point? Some of you have said you post this stuff for the benefit of undecided lurkers. Besides my not believing that there are undecided lurkers let me ask you what they are supposed to think about the mass of threads that amount to nothing more than namecalling and character assasination. I told you guys that I once believed in LIHOP and one of the MAJOR reasons i left the TM was because they did nothing but make fun of debunkers only because they believed differently. Of course I understood their arguments were based on half-truths and unscientific to say the least. Now it seems that some of the "debunkers" here are practicing what was strongly condemned when the TM on other forums did it. Kinda ironic wouldn't you guys agree?

I know this won't win you any friends around here, but I think this is dead on and well said. Belittling the opponent in any argument shows a weakness of position, regardless of what that position is.

[funk de fino]

If you tell or repeat the same lies the truthers do, then the label will stick.

[johnny karate]

I know this won't win you any friends around here, but I think this is dead on and well said. Belittling the opponent in any argument shows a weakness of position, regardless of what that position is.

Not quite. If anything, it shows a weakness in the ability of one to argue a position. Just because the sole argument I offer a flat-earther is to call them a raging lunatic doesn't somehow weaken my position that the Earth is not flat, it merely means my argument in defense of that position is weak.

There are a great many threads in this forum where debunker arguments are defended without the behavior you're trying to imply is more widespread than it is. Since you're so genuinely disturbed by this rampant "labeling" problem, feel free to avoid those threads and to take part in the others. I can even offer you links to ones you've recently abadoned.

[T.A.M.]

Not entirely (http://the911forum.freeforums.org/fighting-the-labels-t61.html).

you bring an anecdote to the table...come on Red...

TAM;)

[~enigma~]

Not quite. If anything, it shows a weakness in the ability of one to argue a position.
I would go further and say it shows nothing except an unwillingness to argue the position (which in the case of the TM is sheer fantasy and not deserving of a logical argument). But what is the point of namecalling and character assassination?

[The Platypus]

White supremacists and holocaust deniers have been in the 911 camp all along. They helped start the whole 911 cult.

[beachnut]

I would suggest that in a forum based on critical thinking, argumentation, discourse, etc, it's helpful to identify weak rhetorical tactics, such as labeling, an attempt to conflate your opponent's position with those whom you give the same label. It's a disingenuous position from which to argue.
No need to label the liars you support. Your movement is labeled delusional because of the delusional ideas pushed by your movement. It is not a surprise neoNAZIs are susceptible to the anti-intellectual delusions your movement manufactures.

If you had evidence for your nonsensical poorly defined plot by unknown people to use beam weapons, thermite, and fake planes you would not be pushing delusions, you would have reality. You are wasting your time worrying about your movement being labeled the factory of nut case lies instead of searching for the evidence.

Your movement is like OJ and Scott Peterson searching golf courses for the murderer. It would help your position if you had logic, facts, evidence, knowledge, and sound judgment instead of complaints and lies.

[johnny karate]

I would go further and say it shows nothing except an unwillingness to argue the position (which in the case of the TM is sheer fantasy and not deserving of a logical argument). But what is the point of namecalling and character assassination?

I don't deny it's poor form to engage in such behavior as a debate tactic. But I do object to RedIbis' implication that this behavior is somehow typical, and therefore representative of the weakness of the debunker position.

There are quite a few threads where intelligent, thoughtful discussion is being offered. Anyone truly interested is such discussion could take part, and at the same time ignore those that are less constructive. RedIbis chooses not to do this, and I submit his motives are borne of intellectual dishonesty rather than some noble adherence to the rules of debate.

[parky76]

I know this won't win you any friends around here, but I think this is dead on and well said. Belittling the opponent in any argument shows a weakness of position, regardless of what that position is.

tell that to the truthers over at LC and Pilots4truth...who refer to us as "govt. shills", "CIA agents", "Mossad moles", "co-conspirators", "traitors", "dewunkers", and other silly names.

[RedIbis]

tell that to the truthers over at LC and Pilots4truth...who refer to us as "govt. shills", "CIA agents", "Mossad moles", "co-conspirators", "traitors", "dewunkers", and other silly names.

I don't doubt that, that's why I said, regardless of position.

[Stellafane]

You commented on the first 4 words but not a thing about the content of the post.

...and you're just making the same word-for-word posts in different threads. (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=146233&page=4) Sheesh, can't you even be original? Isn't just cutting-and-pasting your own posts just kind of pointless (not to mention rather masturbatory)?

[funk de fino]

I dont think they will welcome them but they use them as sources, tolerate them and refuse to condemn them.

[Locknar]

Attention passengers, this train will not be stopping at Bickers-ville. We apologize for any inconvenience this may cause you.

In other words, please ensure your posts are on topic and address the OP vs bickering with each other. Mr Conductor thanks you for your cooperation.

[Dave Rogers]

I think the recent mod box TLA nomination may have set a disturbing precedent.

Dave

[abenja1]

They already have welcomed them with open arms.