Don Piper - 90 Minutes In Heaven

[TheStig]

Don Piper is a preacher who claims to have been dead for 90 minutes, visited heaven, and then came back. Unsurprisingly, he has written a book about it.

YouTube it, I can't post links yet. grrrrr.

I found very little online investigating this story, and what I'd like to know is...well...what do we know about this guy?

Do paramedics and police back up the story? Is there any corroboration at all?

Did he make up the whole thing?

This story has to be taken with a grain of "Dox or GTFO".

[blue sock monkey]

I'm feeling ripped off: My NDE lasted no more than 30 seconds, and I didn't even get to go to Wendy's.

[Agatha]

0ElnQUVkWsQ

[HansMustermann]

Indeed, unless he can produce any evidence that he's actually been clinically dead for 90 minutes... let's just say I've had weirder dreams than that at times. Like when I was chased by popup menus ;)

[Foster Zygote]

Hey Stig, I saw you at Silverstone, or was that an impostor?

Reading up on Piper's death experience it occurs to me that he was pronounced dead prematurely by the paramedics on the scene. Piper and his supporters seem very anxious to believe their preferred interpretation of the event while ignoring the very simple possibility that he was not actually dead, but rather horribly injured and in shock. It sounds as though the paramedics saw the horrific nature of the crash and the severity of Piper's injuries and assumed that he must have died instantly. Even if they checked for a pulse they may not have been able to feel one. There just isn't any convincing evidence that the man was actually dead when he claims that his experience took place. His experience, assuming he didn't consciously fabricate it, may not even have even occurred while he was "dead". He may have assembled it from various dreams and hallucinations during his long and painful period of recovery.

[Marduk]

After receiving medical attention, Don began a long, grueling recovery and now has an entire ministry based around his near-death experience and "90 minutes in heaven."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don_Piper
Great, just what we need, another preacher milking the system
:rolleyes:

still fingers crossed, it seems from this charade that when we die we get exactly what we are expecting, I'm not going to post case file after case file of NDE's who all claim to have seen exactly what they were expecting, I'm just gonna keep my fingers crossed that I finally get that Scalextric set I wanted (and didn't get) since I was 6.
:p

[Marduk]

He may have assembled it from various dreams and hallucinations during his long and painful period of recovery.

plain old wish fulfillment imo
http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/wish+fulfillment
I guess you can say that from this he at least sees himself as a moral person, so probably isn't all that nefarious. It could be worse, I have a friend who lives in Wichita who used to be a Lutheran, he seems to have strayed from the flock since a revelation over the alter ego activities of his Lutheran Deacon, A nice friendly genuine bible thumper called Denis Rader
:p

[Foster Zygote]

Indeed, unless he can produce any evidence that he's actually been clinically dead for 90 minutes... let's just say I've had weirder dreams than that at times. Like when I was chased by popup menus ;)

The possibility of fraud is also very real. There's a guy named Dannion Brinkley from a town near mine in South Carolina who claims to have died for 28 minutes as a result of a lightning strike while he was talking on the 'phone. He even claims that he was dead in the hospital morgue for some time before returning to life. Oddly, a local newspaper article published right after the accident quotes Brinkley as saying he was out for a few minutes until his wife pounded on his chest. His doctor reported that his claim of being dead in the morgue was untrue. It would seem Mr. Brinkley makes a habit of lying. He claimed in his book Saved by the Light that he had served as a CIA sniper in Laos during the Vietnam war. Investigation of military records showed that he served as a truck driver in Georgia when he claimed to be in Laos. He, of course, claims that this is a government cover up due to the classified nature of his mission, but actual special forces snipers who served in Vietnam report that his story is riddled with holes exactly as if it were written by someone who was pretending to know about a business that he really knows nothing about. He also fails to explain why the U.S. government has failed to press charges against a covert operative who is blabbing publicly about classified secrets.

Brinkley also claims to have had future events revealed to him while he was having his out-of-body experience. The fall of the Soviet Union, The disaster at Chernobyl and the first Gulf War were all predicted by Brinkley. Of course, he forgot to tell anyone other than Raymond Moody about these prediction until after the events happened, so he was left saying "I knew that was going to happen" a posteriori. Actual a priori predictions, a nuclear disaster in Norway in '95 and an economic collapse in the U.S. in the late '90s, proved somewhat less impressive in regard to accuracy.

[ExMinister]

He did say the people he met at the pearly gates were the ones responsible for making him a Baptist. So either he made up or hallucinated the whole experience, or out of all the thousands of religions in the world, it turns out the Baptists are the one true religion after all.

ETA: Let me rephrase: the Baptists have got it right after all.

[Marduk]

He did say the people he met at the pearly gates were the ones responsible for making him a Baptist. So either he made up or hallucinated the whole experience, or out of all the thousands of religions in the world, it turns out the Baptists are the one true religion after all.

or

A man dies and goes to heaven. St.Peter gives him a tour around the place. They proceed down a long hallway and come to a door. The man hears much laughter and clinking of glasses and pouring of wine. He asks St.Peter what is behind the door.
St.Peter answers, "Oh, that's just the Presbyterians."

They come to another door and the man hears singing, praises, and loud gospel music. "Oh, that's just the Protestants," he assures the man.

They proceed down the hall, and another door appears. However, when they reach this door, St.Peter warns the man to be very, very quiet.

"Why?" the man asks.

"Because," St. Peter replies, "that's the Baptists, and they think they're the only ones up here!"

[Beerina]

Baptist? So God let people keep going to hell for another 1500+ years after Jesus died?

[kurious_kathy]

Don Piper is a preacher who claims to have been dead for 90 minutes, visited heaven, and then came back. Unsurprisingly, he has written a book about it.

YouTube it, I can't post links yet. grrrrr.

I found very little online investigating this story, and what I'd like to know is...well...what do we know about this guy?

Do paramedics and police back up the story? Is there any corroboration at all?

Did he make up the whole thing?

This story has to be taken with a grain of "Dox or GTFO".

I have read this book and I believe this really did happen to Mr.Piper.

I also believe God can do anything in a persons life, unlike many of you here on this board. Scripture even tells us with God all things are possibe!

[Marduk]

I have read this book and I believe this really did happen to Mr.Piper.

so you're not going to heaven then, you not being a baptist
:p

[joobz]

I also believe God can do anything in a persons life, unlike many of you here on this board. Scripture even tells us with God all things are possibe!
Except, of course, proving that he exists.

[ExMinister]

From Mr. Piper's web site:

How To Go To Heaven
The vast majority of people living today believe that there is another place beyond this world. There is. Don Piper experienced it.

In his book 90 Minutes in Heaven, Don made a decision to take a different route home from a church growth conference that he attended in 1989. It didn't seem like an important choice at the time, but it turned out to be one that changed his life. Waiting down an East Texas highway on his way back to Houston was a large truck that took his life.

In retrospect, the decision to take a different route might appear to be a crucial one. But the most important decision in Don's life occurred NOT on his drive home but when he accepted Christ as Lord at the age of sixteen. Deciding to accept Christ meant Don had an eternal home in Heaven no matter when he died. Acknowledging Christ as Savior guarantees that you will spend eternity with Him.

Oh well. But I think it's hard to tell if he is sincere or not. He definitely experienced a horrible accident. Perhaps he just had the same type of vision others have had across various cultures, in keeping with what he believed.

ETA: Kurious Kathy may have a shot at it after all, according to Mr. Piper's standards.

[CurtC]

I looked up this guy a year or two ago, when my son's baseball coach mentioned that he had just read it.

From my memory, there was a significant delay from this guy's accident and when he wrote this book - several years IIRC. I don't doubt that he's sincere, but knowing what I do about memories of traumatic events, I give his account zero credibility.

He was in an accident and had a near-death experience. He waited a couple of years before he mentioned to anyone else that he saw heaven, which is plenty of time for his already God-biased mind to fill in the details and conflate imagination with original memories. Then it was years later until he decided to write a book, lots more time for those details to be filled in. Everyone here knows, of course, that the more times you recall an event, the less reliable your memory becomes - that's because each time you recall it, it's mixed together with your interpretations of it at that time, and then the mixture is stored back into your memory.

I think Piper is honest, just because I'm aware of how easily this kind of stuff happens with normal human memory. On the other hand, that makes his story even less believable.

[aggle-rithm]

I'm feeling ripped off: My NDE lasted no more than 30 seconds, and I didn't even get to go to Wendy's.

During mine I had to work at Wendy's.

I must have been bad. :(

[aggle-rithm]

How To Go To Heaven
The vast majority of people living today believe that there is another place beyond this world. There is. Don Piper experienced it.



"Unfortunately, you don't get to go, you vile and disgusting sinner. But buy my book, anyway; it's a real page turner!"

[aggle-rithm]

I have read this book and I believe this really did happen to Mr.Piper.


That is a gigantic surprise.

[blue sock monkey]

During mine I had to work at Wendy's.

I must have been bad. :(

No no no. Had you been bad, your NDE would've featured you working at a barbecue joint, cleaning out the smoker. Ish.

My NDE was worth it, though, 'cause that's how I got into skepticism in the first place. Following the NDE, I read Moody's first book and a couple others-- but none of them could explain why I had certain experiences (e. going out-of-body, life review) but not others (no tunnel, no deity handing me minties and goat's milk, no dead loved ones). Eventually I came across Susan Blackmore's Dying To Live, which taught me there were non-supernatural explanations I needed to look at, before I decided that I didn't die because God thought I was so "special" the world couldn't get on without me.

Changed my life--skeptics have more fun. ;)

[George152]

I have read this book and I believe this really did happen to Mr.Piper.

I also believe God can do anything in a persons life, unlike many of you here on this board. Scripture even tells us with God all things are possibe!

Out here in the real world the cessation of heart and respiratory activity for longer than 10 minutes under ordinary conditions means your brain turns into a 'tapioca pudding'.
The "Don Piper" is lying.

[Lrrr]

I have read this book and I believe this really did happen to Mr.Piper.

More blind faith without any evidence. What a surprise!

I also believe God can do anything in a persons life, unlike many of you here on this board. Scripture even tells us with God all things are possibe!

Can he cure childhood diseases? Can he regrow a lost limb? Can he allow you to think for yourself? If he can do any of these, why hasn't he bothered? The world would be a better place if he did and isn't that what he wants?

[bickerer]

My understanding is that "death" is the cessation of brain wave activity (as opposed to simply the heart stopping and respiratory functions ceasing and the bowels evacuating and ones credit card being declined) and to date, no one has come back from that one. How fortunate for Mr. Piper that there is no way to check out his story, not without killing him, anyway.

[TheStig]

While I agree that the Reverend Mr Piper may believe he was dead, I have yet to see any actual evidence. It sounds like his "dead" and really dead might be different things.

And why wait to write the book. I thought the "good news" should be delivered ASAP. Think of how many people died without a chance to hear his story!

[ExMinister]

The possibility of fraud is also very real. There's a guy named Dannion Brinkley from a town near mine in South Carolina who claims to have died for 28 minutes as a result of a lightning strike while he was talking on the 'phone. He even claims that he was dead in the hospital morgue for some time before returning to life. Oddly, a local newspaper article published right after the accident quotes Brinkley as saying he was out for a few minutes until his wife pounded on his chest. His doctor reported that his claim of being dead in the morgue was untrue. It would seem Mr. Brinkley makes a habit of lying. He claimed in his book Saved by the Light that he had served as a CIA sniper in Laos during the Vietnam war. Investigation of military records showed that he served as a truck driver in Georgia when he claimed to be in Laos. He, of course, claims that this is a government cover up due to the classified nature of his mission, but actual special forces snipers who served in Vietnam report that his story is riddled with holes exactly as if it were written by someone who was pretending to know about a business that he really knows nothing about. He also fails to explain why the U.S. government has failed to press charges against a covert operative who is blabbing publicly about classified secrets.

Brinkley also claims to have had future events revealed to him while he was having his out-of-body experience. The fall of the Soviet Union, The disaster at Chernobyl and the first Gulf War were all predicted by Brinkley. Of course, he forgot to tell anyone other than Raymond Moody about these prediction until after the events happened, so he was left saying "I knew that was going to happen" a posteriori. Actual a priori predictions, a nuclear disaster in Norway in '95 and an economic collapse in the U.S. in the late '90s, proved somewhat less impressive in regard to accuracy.


Interesting. Is there an article out there somewhere on this? Just curious because I try to collect this kind of information.

[aggle-rithm]

No no no. Had you been bad, your NDE would've featured you working at a barbecue joint, cleaning out the smoker. Ish.



I actually did this in real life...

[blue sock monkey]

I actually did this in real life...

Condolences--but also many thanks! I looooove barbecue.

[Tricky]

One thing that people forget when they read glurge like this is that others have had somewhat similar experiences, or at least claim to. For example, Sylvia Browne has written a detailed account of heaven (http://www.poetryconnection.net/0451205731/The_Other_Side_and_Back.html). I would be willing to bet that the specifics of "heaven" differ considerably between her and Piper. Often this is waved off by theists as "Heaven is what you want it to be". If so, why is Piper's version of it of any interest?

[Foster Zygote]

Interesting. Is there an article out there somewhere on this? Just curious because I try to collect this kind of information.

He was brought up as support for the veracity of out-of-body-experiences/dualism in one of the first threads I ever participated in on this forum. There was even less to be found on the Internet regarding him than there is now, but I was still able to put together the fact that no one was corroborating his story. You'd think that hospital staff would remember a guy coming back to life after 28 minutes of death. That, plus the fact that his only "successful" prophecies were claims to have known that the events would happen, convinced me that he was a fraud. Later I found out about the CIA sniper lie and was not surprised.

[ExMinister]

One thing that people forget when they read glurge like this is that others have had somewhat similar experiences, or at least claim to. For example, Sylvia Browne has written a detailed account of heaven (http://www.poetryconnection.net/0451205731/The_Other_Side_and_Back.html). I would be willing to bet that the specifics of "heaven" differ considerably between her and Piper. Often this is waved off by theists as "Heaven is what you want it to be". If so, why is Piper's version of it of any interest?

Not to mention Hindu NDEs which involve encounters with Hindu religious figures or the Thai NDErs who meet Yamatoots, messengers of the god of death Yama. Or the Kaliai in Melanesia whose afterlife is all about high technology...(http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/keith_augustine/HNDEs.html#differences)

[ExMinister]

He was brought up as support for the veracity of out-of-body-experiences/dualism in one of the first threads I ever participated in on this forum. There was even less to be found on the Internet regarding him than there is now, but I was still able to put together the fact that no one was corroborating his story. You'd think that hospital staff would remember a guy coming back to life after 28 minutes of death. That, plus the fact that his only "successful" prophecies were claims to have known that the events would happen, convinced me that he was a fraud. Later I found out about the CIA sniper lie and was not surprised.

This makes me wonder about other high-profile NDErs like Howard Storm, Betty Eadie and Kimberly Clark-Sharp. Not much on the Internet on them either from a skeptical perspective. Might be interesting to see what we could come up with.

[kurious_kathy]

Out here in the real world the cessation of heart and respiratory activity for longer than 10 minutes under ordinary conditions means your brain turns into a 'tapioca pudding'.
The "Don Piper" is lying.

If Jesus could resurrect people like Lazerus from the dead then I think he can repair anything that was damaged because of the trauma of death. Many people have claimed to be resurrected after death, why is that so hard for people to believe? God can do anything he wants to do, he's God!

[jimmygun]

Okay, perhaps Mr. Piper didn't have an out of his body experience but there is plenty of reason to believe he has had an ongoing out of his mind experience.

[ClassyElf]

Oh, this man came to my church on book tour about a year ago. I had the displeasure of sitting through his one hour live commercial. I don't remember anything about it except coming out with an extreme dislike for him.


The thing to know here though, is that people of nearly all religions have had these "I died, saw the afterlife, and came back to heaven" types of happenings. The thing is, these people all see the heaven or afterlife of their own religions. Muslims see Allah and come back preaching Muhammad's good book; Budhists see spirits and begin reincarnation, etc..

[Ducky]

If Jesus could resurrect people like Lazerus from the dead then I think he can repair anything that was damaged because of the trauma of death. Many people have claimed to be resurrected after death, why is that so hard for people to believe? God can do anything he wants to do, he's God!

Apparently not. There's been prayers you'd stop posting here for years.

[ImaginalDisc]

If Jesus could resurrect people like Lazerus from the dead then I think he can repair anything that was damaged because of the trauma of death. Many people have claimed to be resurrected after death, why is that so hard for people to believe? God can do anything he wants to do, he's God!

Then why won't God heal amputees? (http://www.whywontgodhealamputees.com/)

[SezMe]

If Jesus could resurrect people like Lazerus from the dead then I think he can repair anything that was damaged because of the trauma of death.
"If" being the operative word here.

[joobz]

If Jesus could resurrect people like Lazerus from the dead then I think he can repair anything that was damaged because of the trauma of death. Many people have claimed to be resurrected after death, why is that so hard for people to believe? God can do anything he wants to do, he's God!

Because it has never been observed by medical science. Yet, each of these people have been in the company of medical professionals...

[JFrankA]

If Jesus could resurrect people like Lazerus from the dead then I think he can repair anything that was damaged because of the trauma of death. Many people have claimed to be resurrected after death, why is that so hard for people to believe? God can do anything he wants to do, he's God!

My bolding.

Because there has to be facts. All the words you used, indeed, even the reference you've cited, has no confirmed facts. It's all beliefs, hear-say stories and conjecture.

Why is that so hard for people to get confirm facts?


And from the wiki site, I noticed something interesting (again, my bolding)

(His book) is narrated in first-person from Piper's point of view (although he personally does not remember many of the details of the crash). The book contains two chapters detailing his experience in heaven. The remaining chapters deal with Piper's recovery — an ordeal that included 34 separate surgeries.

The guy doesn't even remember the accident, and, as it was stated before, it was years after the fact when he wrote the book, so it's been confirmed that he has a faulty memory of the indecent. So how could this possibly be true?

[paiute]

Singing hymns and waving palm branches through all eternity is pretty when you hear about it in the pulpit, but it's as poor a way to put in valuable time as a body could contrive.
- Captain Stormfield's Visit to Heaven

It is easy to see that the inventor of the heaven did not originate the idea, but copied it from the show-ceremonies of some sorry little sovereign State up in the back settlements of the Orient somewhere.
- Letters from the Earth

[chillzero]

From Mr. Piper's web site:

How To Go To Heaven
The vast majority of people living today believe that there is another place beyond this world. There is. Don Piper experienced it.

In his book 90 Minutes in Heaven, Don made a decision to take a different route home from a church growth conference that he attended in 1989. It didn't seem like an important choice at the time, but it turned out to be one that changed his life. Waiting down an East Texas highway on his way back to Houston was a large truck that took his life.

In retrospect, the decision to take a different route might appear to be a crucial one. But the most important decision in Don's life occurred NOT on his drive home but when he accepted Christ as Lord at the age of sixteen. Deciding to accept Christ meant Don had an eternal home in Heaven no matter when he died. Acknowledging Christ as Savior guarantees that you will spend eternity with Him.

Hang on .... can't they even make their minds up in the blurb what the 'most important' event was? Good grief.


The guy doesn't even remember the accident, and, as it was stated before, it was years after the fact when he wrote the book, so it's been confirmed that he has a faulty memory of the indecent. So how could this possibly be true?
But then the accident wasn't the actual most important event anyway ... or something.

[tsig]

I have read this book and I believe this really did happen to Mr.Piper.

I also believe God can do anything in a persons life, unlike many of you here on this board. Scripture even tells us with God all things are possibe!

Just like they are without god.

[tsig]

If Jesus could resurrect people like Lazerus from the dead then I think he can repair anything that was damaged because of the trauma of death. Many people have claimed to be resurrected after death, why is that so hard for people to believe? God can do anything he wants to do, he's God!

Except forgive people who break the rules. Those he has to punish.

[ExMinister]

Awhile back I sat in Barnes & Noble and skimmed through Heaven is Real, Piper's second book. He maintained throughout the book that the only way to get to heaven (and avoid hell) is to accept Jesus Christ as your savior.

All I could think of is how many people would read that who had lost loved ones who hadn't done this, and how much pain and worry that would cause.

How horrible to write something so capable of compounding another's grief.

[aggle-rithm]

Awhile back I sat in Barnes & Noble and skimmed through Heaven is Real, Piper's second book. He maintained throughout the book that the only way to get to heaven (and avoid hell) is to accept Jesus Christ as your savior.

All I could think of is how many people would read that who had lost loved ones who hadn't done this, and how much pain and worry that would cause.

How horrible to write something so capable of compounding another's grief.

As is the thought of the universe being controlled by a being who is so depressingly arbitrary in his judgements.

It's as if he were to say, "Sorry, anyone who hasn't tried raw oysters can't get in."

Sure, you could have been warned that you had to try raw oysters, but how would you know the people telling you this aren't crazy?

[blue sock monkey]

"God works in mysterious, inefficient, and breathtakingly cruel ways."
--Penn Jillette

[CurtC]

Then why won't God heal amputees? (http://www.whywontgodhealamputees.com/)

Because God hates amputees (http://whydoesgodhateamputees.com/), of course.

[bobcarp]

If Jesus could resurrect people like Lazerus from the dead then I think he can repair anything that was damaged because of the trauma of death. Many people have claimed to be resurrected after death, why is that so hard for people to believe? God can do anything he wants to do, he's God!

Many people claim to be taken aboard alien spacecraft. Many people claim to have been touched by the grace of Allah, Zeus, Hindu god, et al. So I guess that makes it true. Many people claim to have been helped by Astrology; I guess that's true too. Many people claim that Nostradamus has made accurate predictions as to the future. Why is it so hard for you to believe that people make up gods? Why is it so hard for you to examine history and learn that humans make claims that aren't true? He, or she, who doesn't learn from history is damned to repeat it.

[JFrankA]

Many people claim to be taken aboard alien spacecraft. Many people claim to have been touched by the grace of Allah, Zeus, Hindu god, et al. So I guess that makes it true.

...I've been touched by Tera Patrick. In fact, she hugged me.

I find that far more uplifting and fufilling that any god can do.... :D

[Tricky]

God can do anything he wants to do, he's God!

Apparently not, because I'm sure He'd shut you up if he could, considering the damage you're doing to His name.

[ImaginalDisc]

Apparently not, because I'm sure He'd shut you up if he could, considering the damage you're doing to His name.

Wait, I get moderated for calling a troll a troll (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=146316), but you don't get moderated for this?

Mind you, I agree with you.

[edge]

Originally Posted by kurious_kathy
I have read this book and I believe this really did happen to Mr.Piper.

I can only vouch for myself and say, that these things are real and this is a spiritual world and I can also vouch for darkness on that side, it’s there waiting for you.
The darkness is calming at the moment of your death or dying, it’s purpose is, to calm you and your mind at the time of death, at the point of realization that you are dying, because it is scary no doubt about it.


Falling into darkness won't matter, falling into the light will, those are the choices and on this side is where we make our decisions on belief and faith.
I think that forgiveness can be achieved even on that side and that God is more forgiving than he lets on through biblical writings.

I base that on one statement, So that all can be saved....

But there are defiantly limits set in place for the really bad.
All one can do is stay in certain parameters and pray.

We are all going back to where we came from and that is to the light of God and God specifically, and if that one statement is true then it all is a test and Kathy is right when she says God can do anything because maybe, we are all there before birth and all there after death.

This means in general there is no death.
This can also mean that before we are born that we are told what will happen to us…. the reason we won’t remember what was before our births, the only thing I can figure out is…so we can develop faith and for God through our free will know our true hearts.


I could give you one hell of a scenario but you would call it special pleading so I won’t.

Let me just say that it is possible that we are given some information before birth about how long we will live and in which way we will die, a choice in circumstances and length of time on earth and in the test knowing where and under what circumstances we are going to be born into.

Then again it could be nothing but darkness.
Which can’t be true either and you must go there to get there so why would you pass to a universe of darkness from one of light?

[ExMinister]

Originally Posted by kurious_kathy

I can only vouch for myself and say, that these things are real and this is a spiritual world and I can also vouch for darkness on that side, it’s there waiting for you.
The darkness is calming at the moment of your death or dying, it’s purpose is, to calm you and your mind at the time of death, at the point of realization that you are dying, because it is scary no doubt about it.


Falling into darkness won't matter, falling into the light will, those are the choices and on this side is where we make our decisions on belief and faith.
I think that forgiveness can be achieved even on that side and that God is more forgiving than he lets on through biblical writings.

I base that on one statement, So that all can be saved....

But there are defiantly limits set in place for the really bad.
All one can do is stay in certain parameters and pray.

We are all going back to where we came from and that is to the light of God and God specifically, and if that one statement is true then it all is a test and Kathy is right when she says God can do anything because maybe, we are all there before birth and all there after death.

This means in general there is no death.
This can also mean that before we are born that we are told what will happen to us…. the reason we won’t remember what was before our births, the only thing I can figure out is…so we can develop faith and for God through our free will know our true hearts.


I could give you one hell of a scenario but you would call it special pleading so I won’t.

Let me just say that it is possible that we are given some information before birth about how long we will live and in which way we will die, a choice in circumstances and length of time on earth and in the test knowing where and under what circumstances we are going to be born into.

Then again it could be nothing but darkness.
Which can’t be true either and you must go there to get there so why would you pass to a universe of darkness from one of light?


Special pleading or not, this might make more sense if you did. Darkness is good, darkness is bad? I'm not sure what you mean.

Sure your scenario is possible, but so are lots of other things.

I don't understand the last paragraph at all, or the question.

[edge]

ExMinister say:
Sure your scenario is possible, but so are lots of other things.

I don't understand the last paragraph at all, or the question.

Then again it could be nothing but darkness.
Which can’t be true either and you must go there to get there so why would you pass to a universe of darkness from one of light?


We live in a universe of star light skeptics believe that when we die there is nothing but darkness but we are told that Gods light is there waiting on the other side and all questions will be answered.
Even in our natural surroundings at night we are continuously lighting our way in the night to move forward in our travels.

We are moving forward in time, we are allowed time to learn how we are flawed with out Gods’ light guiding our way allowing us to keep moving forward.
Motion is the key to everything IMHO, so in the darkness do you move forward if you can’t see?

[JFrankA]

We live in a universe of star light skeptics believe that when we die there is nothing but darkness but we are told that Gods light is there waiting on the other side and all questions will be answered.
Even in our natural surroundings at night we are continuously lighting our way in the night to move forward in our travels.

We are moving forward in time, we are allowed time to learn how we are flawed with out Gods’ light guiding our way allowing us to keep moving forward.
Motion is the key to everything IMHO, so in the darkness do you move forward if you can’t see?

Well... when you are alive it is possible to move around in darkness....your toes may not like it, but it is possible.

When you're dead, you don't move. Whether the place is dark or brightly lit.

I'm sorry, you are making no sense to me either.....

[edge]

The answer to Suffering, from a different perspctive.

So we all have power to create and live our lives as we see proper or rebel and do wrong and in some cases extremely wrong.

So from a perspective of no time on that other side knowing what it is like down here, souls might sit there and decide how much time they need before death to prove themselves.
It might be voluntary or it might be a choice that God makes with you or maybe with out.
At any rate the soul would be prepped in advance and told certain things of the upcoming test the decision might be left to them, (the Soul).

So the conversation might go like this, “ God gathers a certain amount of spirits/souls and says, “ I have gathered you here to ask for volunteers I have a position that needs filling and this is what will happen to you, I have chosen you amongst the many because I know that each of you can handle this assignment and you will be just fine after freewill is exercised by the soul/souls that are in the process of deciding between right and wrong chooses”.


So when you say how about the deaths of souls early in life by whatever events they will encounter, they may have accepted that life that will end in a short time because God isn’t testing them as much… but rather those left behind, the mother the father, those that are doing the crimes and all those that blame God for a souls freewill to commit the crime, they are being tested too.
Those souls know in advance that they are going to face the most horrific events they will ever face and that their memories will be wiped clean before that experience, they will be the strongest of souls they will not falter even under those conditions and they are allowed to fill those positions because God knows they will not falter in their belief, which allows them an immediate entry into Heaven; back in the presences of Gods light, they may even get another chance down here if they want.

Whether they choose to maybe to come back or not, they can move even farther forward on that side towards what we are destined for.

[edge]

Well... when you are alive it is possible to move around in darkness....your toes may not like it, but it is possible.

When you're dead, you don't move. Whether the place is dark or brightly lit.

I'm sorry, you are making no sense to me either.....

Only because you have made up your mind.

[JFrankA]

Only because you have made up your mind.

Well, it seems to me that you've made up your mind that I've made up my mind. And if that is so, then maybe you've made up your mind as well, but that is just a speculation. I haven't decided.

[edge]

Well, it seems to me that you've made up your mind that I've made up my mind. And if that is so, then maybe you've made up your mind as well, but that is just a speculation. I haven't decided.

If God is not un-caring then I would think the senerio would be like I discribed and I really don't know if you have made up your mind but even I question and this is the only way I can see that question being ansewered from a beliver perspective.

Have at it, I am.

[Marduk]

Wait, I get moderated for calling a troll a troll (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=146316), but you don't get moderated for this?

Mind you, I agree with you.
you got moderated because you broke the forum rules, not for any other reason
or is this another one of those "the mods have an agenda" whines ?
doesn't matter, as you have just broken the rules again in exactly the same manner I have again reported your post to the mod team
thanks for playing

:D

[Reality Check]

Duplicate

[Tricky]

We live in a universe of star light skeptics believe that when we die there is nothing but darkness...
No they don't. When you die, you simply cease to exist. No light. No darkness. No perception of any kind. Do you remember what it was like before you were conceived? Sort of like that.


...but we are told that Gods light is there waiting on the other side and all questions will be answered.
Even in our natural surroundings at night we are continuously lighting our way in the night to move forward in our travels. rything IMHO, so in the darkness do you move forward if you can’t see?
You may be told that. You may even choose to believe it. But you do so because it makes you feel good, not because it is supported by evidence. If you badly need to be made to feel good and not be afraid of death, then I can understand why this myth is so important to you. It is too scary for you to try to imagine simply not being. Enjoy your comforting story if it keeps you from being scared.

Some of us don't scare so easily.

We are moving forward in time, we are allowed time to learn how we are flawed with out Gods’ light guiding our way allowing us to keep moving forward.
Motion is the key to everything IMHO, so in the darkness do you move forward if you can’t see?
Of course we are moving forward in time. (Hint: Time only moves forward.) But your metaphor is badly flawed. If knowledge is light, then science has shed more light on the world than any God or gods ever imagined by mankind. Thanks to science, even blind people have a chance to see in the dark. That is because science works. God doesn't.

[JFrankA]

If God is not un-caring then I would think the senerio would be like I discribed and I really don't know if you have made up your mind but even I question and this is the only way I can see that question being ansewered from a beliver perspective.

Have at it, I am.

Funny, my reply wasn't about any god, whether it's yours or anyone Else's concept of what a god would be or act. It was a response because it seemed to me that you have made the decision for me that I have decided. And further, being someone who used to believe, I can see from a believer's perspective can make a question and answer it.

However, from a purely factual, scientific perspective, without beliefs, with just facts, I can see how those answers are given as well.

I do not belittle your beliefs. Indeed, if believing in a god makes you a better person, so much the better, go for it.

However, for me personally, removing the beliefs and replacing them with evidence, science and verifiable facts, makes me a better person.

I don't worry about an "after-life". I worry about this life: the only life that has been factually verified. Therefore, friends and even strangers are worth more to me now because I do not believe, since there is no evidence to any kind of "after life". So the result is that I am a good person not because I'm afraid of the "dark".

And this expands beyond just this planet. The workings of the universe is much more amazing and real because there isn't an all powerful being planning it all out. See, knowing that there is a god, being sure of an afterlife, completely confident that an omnipotent being created everything in the universe gives away the secret. Everything is answered. There is no mystery. If there is no mystery, then the only thing left is "I know".

I don't. That's the beauty of being an atheist. I don't know. I want to learn, but I don't want to be misled simply because of what another person or people may believe. I need facts. I need things that have can stand the test of what has been previously solidly proven scientifically. And god hasn't stood to that. The stories in the bible don't stand. The belief of a "light" or a "dark" after someone dies doesn't stand.

People may have claimed to see it, or feel it, but, being a magician, I know how to fool people into seeing and feeling things so that they come away believing that I can perform miracles.

So again, you may believe. That's what you need. That's fine with me. I'm not trying to "convert" you. Not my business, desire nor right to do so.

But please, don't tell me that "I know". I don't believe. That is not "I know".

[ImaginalDisc]

you got moderated because you broke the forum rules, not for any other reason
or is this another one of those "the mods have an agenda" whines ?
doesn't matter, as you have just broken the rules again in exactly the same manner I have again reported your post to the mod team
thanks for playing

:D

No, the point is that "attack the argument, not the arguer" is a rule here and it's highly inconsistent kk to be an acceptable target.

[edge]

No they don't. When you die, you simply cease to exist. No light. No darkness. No perception of any kind. Do you remember what it was like before you were conceived? Sort of like that.



You may be told that. You may even choose to believe it. But you do so because it makes you feel good, not because it is supported by evidence. If you badly need to be made to feel good and not be afraid of death, then I can understand why this myth is so important to you. It is too scary for you to try to imagine simply not being. Enjoy your comforting story if it keeps you from being scared.

Some of us don't scare so easily.


Of course we are moving forward in time. (Hint: Time only moves forward.) But your metaphor is badly flawed. If knowledge is light, then science has shed more light on the world than any God or gods ever imagined by mankind. Thanks to science, even blind people have a chance to see in the dark. That is because science works. God doesn't.
Some believe we can go back in time but not forward.
You missed everything I was getting at.
The *Idea here as KK stated was that God can do anything.
Therefore all things are covered, that blankness that darkness that a skeptical person says happens upon death, or if you choose nothingness you will be aware of it.

As far as science, it’s a great tool to learn how things work, just because a person believes in God doesn't mean we stop learning about how things work I want to know how and what God knows since I believe he created it all I think there fore he is the greatest scientist of all.. To know that is science whether you believe in God or not.

What your missing is your body was conceived your soul was created....

Just because I believe doesn't make me scared of dying on the contrary I am giving you what I know from several experiences I have had, personally I can't hardly wait and am joyfully that it will happen one day.

Trust me on this, on your way to death you will be aware of the darkness, believe it or not.
JfrankA say:

Funny, my reply wasn't about any god, whether it's yours or anyone Else's concept of what a god would be or act. It was a response because it seemed to me that you have made the decision for me that I have decided. And further, being someone who used to believe, I can see from a believer's perspective can make a question and answer it.

Well lets see if I read you right?
JfrankA says:

However, for me personally, removing the beliefs and replacing them with evidence, science and verifiable facts, makes me a better person.

because I do not believe, since there is no evidence to any kind of "after life". So the result is that I am a good person not because I'm afraid of the "dark".

[/quote]

You don’t believe, So I read you right… what’s the problem Frank?
I am not trying to get you to believe in what i do just to think differently about the subject at hand.

I never said to be afraid of the dark I said it’s something that calms you after death.
I am trying to give you a scenario where by God can be righteous when we can’t see it, concerning suffering.
What could be the reason he doesn’t stop the bad that happens to people here and now?
If he did who would know that he did with out God directly telling us and showing us that he did, that would nullify faith and would take away free will from the person he stopped and I am afraid that would nullify all free will.
Why take it away from one and not all?

[JFrankA]

You don’t believe, So I read you right… what’s the problem Frank?
I am not trying to get you to believe in what i do just to think differently about the subject at hand.

As I've already stated, I used to be a believer. I have seen the "other side of the coin", so to speak, and earlier in my life, I would have believed that this man had actually went to heaven. or that his soul seen light, or the one of the thousands of different beliefs that thousands of different people believed what might have happened.

But I have learned a lot since then. I can't now "just believe". Belief is not proof. Belief is not solid. I can consider it, but the evidence and the facts just can't support those beliefs. Sorry.

What if somoene said "No, there is no god. But I believe that our souls is really energy from the sun and when we die, our souls go to a nebula and get reincarnated as sun with our own solar system. You should just try 'to think differently about the subject at hand.'"

Would you? I mean, there is real science in this idea, because sun do come from some nebuli. But would that make you think differently about your own beliefs? Would you consider a person who believes this to be right?

As an athiest, I would be asking questions: the first being, simply, Where's the proof?


I never said to be afraid of the dark I said it’s something that calms you after death.
I am trying to give you a scenario where by God can be righteous when we can’t see it, concerning suffering.
What could be the reason he doesn’t stop the bad that happens to people here and now?


Well, let me ask you 'to think differently about the subject at hand.'"

In all you've just stated, consider this simple statement. There is no god. Now there's no reason to ask "why". Bad things happen because they do. No hand directing it, no plan, just is. Some things you can control, some things you can't.


If he did who would know that he did with out God directly telling us and showing us that he did, that would nullify faith and would take away free will from the person he stopped and I am afraid that would nullify all free will.
Why take it away from one and not all?

Why does taking away faith nullify free will? I don't get that at all. Are you telling me that in order to make my own decsions I need a superior being with a plan?

Seems to me that someone who is responsible for her/his own actions, without the belief that a superior being is, at the very least, looking over her/his neck all the time, has free will.

[Tricky]

Some believe we can go back in time but not forward.
Some believe that, but they are wrong, according to every piece of evidence ever discovered.

You missed everything I was getting at.
The *Idea here as KK stated was that God can do anything.
Therefore all things are covered, that blankness that darkness that a skeptical person says happens upon death, or if you choose nothingness you will be aware of it.
No, I understood it just fine. It is simply wrong. When you die, you will not be aware of anything, not even "nothingness". Your brain will not work and the brain is required for awareness, according to the overwhelming mass of evidence. I realize that you cannot seem to wrap your brain around "nothingness". You keep talking about it as if it were "something". You are making a strawman of the skeptical position. They do not say "all things are covered by by blackness or darkness upon death." You are putting words into their mouths while trying and failing to understand the skeptical position.


As far as science, it’s a great tool to learn how things work, just because a person believes in God doesn't mean we stop learning about how things work. It doesn't have to mean that, but for some, when "how things work" conflicts with their concept of God, they stop being scientific. They start to believe without evidence. That is not the way to "find out how things work".

I want to know how and what God knows since I believe he created it all I think there fore he is the greatest scientist of all.. To know that is science whether you believe in God or not.
The concept of God is completely meaningless to science. Even if He did exist, He would not be a part of any truly scientific examination of a topic. No kind of magic is part of science. They are, by definition, irreconcilably incompatible.
What your missing is your body was conceived your soul was created....
What you're missing is any evidence for that statement... or whatever it was. It didn't quite pass the test for being a real sentence. You don't seem to get it, Edge. Just because you believe something doesn't make it true, no matter how hard and how piously you believe it. The only thing that makes something true is evidence.

Just because I believe doesn't make me scared of dying on the contrary I am giving you what I know from several experiences I have had, personally I can't hardly wait and am joyfully that it will happen one day.
That is because you don't believe you will really die. You believe you will live on in some poorly-defined afterlife. Why do you believe this? I think it is because the actual and total unawareness that accompanies real and permanent death scares the pants off of you. If not, why can't you accept it as one possibility? Instead, you have accepted and invented a fairy tale life to replace actual death and you will not, by admission, allow for any other possibility. Oh, I don't blame you. People have been doing this for many centuries and with countless different fairy tales to comfort them. Real death is so scary to you that you cannot begin to accept it as true, in spite of the fact that nobody you know who has died has ever returned in any way that you can give evidence for. There is a mountain of evidence for this, yet you continue to deny it.

Trust me on this, on your way to death you will be aware of the darkness, believe it or not.
Here we go again. It comes down to "Just believe what I say, just because". You're asking me to trust you on this, yet you cannot give me a scrap of evidence to counter the masses of evidence that it is not true. Sorry Edge, I cannot trust you. Oh, you're a nice guy and all, but as a source of reliable information, you are quite simply one of the worst I have ever encountered. And you seem to like it that way.

Enjoy your fairy tales while you live. Once you don't live, you will be unaware of fairy tales and of everything else. That's just how life works. Be brave and face up to it.

[Foster Zygote]

No, I understood it just fine. It is simply wrong. When you die, you will not be aware of anything, not even "nothingness". Your brain will not work and the brain is required for awareness, according to the overwhelming mass of evidence. I realize that you cannot seem to wrap your brain around "nothingness". You keep talking about it as if it were "something". You are making a strawman of the skeptical position. They do not say "all things are covered by by blackness or darkness upon death." You are putting words into their mouths while trying and failing to understand the skeptical position.

The simplest was to understand it is to compare it to the "nothingness" that precedes one's birth.

[Tricky]

The simplest was to understand it is to compare it to the "nothingness" that precedes one's birth.
I agree. I tried that. Sometimes the simplest is not simple enough for some people.

No they don't. When you die, you simply cease to exist. No light. No darkness. No perception of any kind. Do you remember what it was like before you were conceived? Sort of like that. What your missing is your body was conceived your soul was created....

[Kopji]

I used to think that doctors, medical people, and the police had a special kind of competence: a knowledge of right, wrong, and what was just; and could do almost anything. Ministers mattered, could pray and miracles would sometimes happen.

This story has it all. Amazing how real life can be just like a fairy tale.
:|

[Tricky]

This story has it all. Amazing how real life can be just like a fairy tale.
:|
Yes, sometimes it's pretty grimm.

[kurious_kathy]

Apparently not. There's been prayers you'd stop posting here for years.

What if God is the one who purposed me to find jref and start sharing here?, I really do not remember how I even came across this website. Was it coincidence or could it be perhaps a divine appointment?

[Geezer]

What if God is the one who purposed me to find jref and start sharing here?, I really do not remember how I even came across this website. Was it coincidence or could it be perhaps a divine appointment?

What if you are wrong?

[Geezer]

Then why won't God heal amputees? (http://www.whywontgodhealamputees.com/)

Isn't it obvious, god hates them...bloody useless gimps, How dare they lose his divine limbs! :rolleyes:

[Lucian]

What if God is the one who purposed me to find jref and start sharing here?, I really do not remember how I even came across this website. Was it coincidence or could it be perhaps a divine appointment?
Hmmm, well, if it were "divine appointment," you'd think that a number of people would have been converted by now thanks to your proselytizing.

Everyone who's been saved, raise your hand.

[JFrankA]

What if God is the one who purposed me to find jref and start sharing here?, I really do not remember how I even came across this website. Was it coincidence or could it be perhaps a divine appointment?

I bet it was neither. Maybe someone mentioned it or referred to it and you just decided to come here. Why does it have to be divine intervention? Why isn't just simply your decision?

Let me put it this way:

What if you saw a reference to this site, (it's not hard to find, links are all over), and you made the decision to come here? Maybe because you were curious, maybe to make a point to atheists, maybe to vent, whatever.

Maybe, just maybe, it was your choice to come here. It's certainly your choice to stay and post more comments.....


ETA: Everyone who's been saved, raise your hand. - My hand is down.

[Tricky]

What if God is the one who purposed me to find jref and start sharing here?, I really do not remember how I even came across this website. Was it coincidence or could it be perhaps a divine appointment?
You think maybe God wanted you to come here to drive people as far away from Christianity as possible? I thought he was supposed to be smart.

[joobz]

What if God is the one who purposed me to find jref and start sharing here?, I really do not remember how I even came across this website. Was it coincidence or could it be perhaps a divine appointment?
If that was really your calling, you dropped the ball. You should have been more aware of what your holy text actually says. You should be more aware of what your opposition actually says and thinks. You should be more aware of well, most everything regarding the debate.