Questions about heaven

[jimmygun]

A lot of my friends have joined the jebus train in the latter parts of our lives and all express a desire to spend eternity in heaven. Of course they think that I should come along but for the life of me I can't think of any scenerio of a heaven that would interest me in the least.

One friend lost a baby at two months old, thirty years ago and they both firmly believe that they will be reunited in heaven. Now to me, they will have nothing in common with the baby, they have lived here on earth and experienced all that human life offers while the baby went right to heaven with none of the things we all experience.

It would seem that any reunion would be awkward at best. Do you have any explanations for this or other questions about heaven? I ask those around me about this sort of thing but all I get is "Heaven is a place of perfection but I don't know what that will be like."

Seems to me if someone is trying to sell me something they should have some answers to some of my questions but so far nothing.

Is there a site I can visit that attempts to discribe what heaven will be like?

[shadron]

You could read Robert Heinlein's Job - A Comedy of Justice. It has a description of heaven, but it is not very flattering. Heaven has traffic jambs, busses, discrimination (between angels, saints and ordinary joes), disillusionment and bureaucracy; in short, it is very much like 1935 Kansas City. The book in total is a grand statement on the purpose and meaning of religion, as told by an atheist through an evangelistic christian.

[Tricky]

Generally, religious sites tend to go rather vague when pressed for details about heaven, like this one (http://www.cbn.com/spirituallife/CBNTeachingSheets/faq_heaven.aspx). They tend to fall back on things like "it is spiritual" or "humans simply can't imagine it". (This site is not even sure if animals go to heaven).

But if you start asking the fringe element of Christianity, you get a lot more definition. For this guy (http://ad2004.com/prophecytruths/Articles/Heaven/heaven.html), it's the City of Zion, complete with mountains etc.

Of course, for Islam (http://www.interfaith.org/forum/what-is-heaven-like-1956.html)it is completely different, though they aren't much better at describing it other than metaphoricially.

I'm not sure if there's a good site that makes comparisons. It would be tough, because even members of a single religion don't agree.

[Marduk]

Is there a site I can visit that attempts to discribe what heaven will be like?

like this
http://lh3.ggpht.com/_LKK0dQcU3VU/Rv1e7Qyk5TI/AAAAAAAAAyc/eD06gxMhS_w/IMG_1944.JPG
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heaven
if you were thinking it looked like this
http://www.breadonthewaters.com/add/0154_Heaven_christian_clipart.jpg
sorry, then you are the victim of one of the oldest cons, the one that says be good and you are assured of eternal paradise, be bad and you will receive damnation, fact is, that concept of afterlife karma is less than 3000 years old. The best you can do is be happy with what you have now, because all the evidence you have that there is something later was written by religious extremists with an agenda
;)

[MG1962]

Unfortunately no one who has been there has been back to tell us what it was like. I think there are as many versions of heaven as there are believers in Heaven.

Islam is often quoted as the 72 virgins, however a well read Islamic friend explained that was a metaphor for your greatest desire rather than the actual reward. So perhaps heaven will be what you make of it.

[slingblade]

Heaven is dark. It's cold. And you aren't there, because you're dead. Where it's dark and cold.

[maddog]

Sorry, my heaven is just for me. With My Precious Wife and all of our kids and friends, having, say, a cookout and/or bonfire at our house. I'm sipping a moderately cool Maudite (http://www.unibroue.com/graphs_our_beers/maudite.html) hanging out with my loves and dearest friends.

THAT is my heaven.

[yy2bggggs]

It's Christmas in heaven, every day. It snows, even though it's always nice and warm, and everyone looks smart and wears ties. You get to watch great films on television all of the time like Jaws I, II, and III, and the Sound of Music, which comes on twice every hour.

Everyone in the family gets gifts, and there are Sony Walkmans, and all of the latest video games.

Oh, and they also have toiletries and trains.

[Trakar]

The general Catholic Church postion, is that heaven is a state, not a place. It is direct and continuous communion with God, not an alternative, etheric Earth or paradise, like many of the pagan representations of the afterlife.

[MG1962]

Heaven is dark. It's cold. And you aren't there, because you're dead. Where it's dark and cold.

So whats heaven like if you are cremated ;)

[Hokulele]

So whats heaven like if you are cremated ;)


Fluffy, with little crunchy bits here and there.

[slingblade]

So whats heaven like if you are cremated ;)

Well, gee...I could ask Mom, but she's still sitting in that box in my sister's closet.

So in Mom's case, heaven is still dark, but it smells like camphor. ;)

[Beerina]

Islam is often quoted as the 72 virgins, however a well read Islamic friend explained that was a metaphor for your greatest desire rather than the actual reward. So perhaps heaven will be what you make of it.

I was wondering. It's bad enough priests tell you your reward will come in Heaven rather than this life. But the 72 virgins thing smacked a little too hard of suggesting every male's desire was to basically be the successful alpha male who drove away all the other males, leaving you with a bunch of females all to yourself.

(Ironically, an interesting and successful fallout from animal, and thus human, evolution. It's not a strike against a facet of human nature, but rather that a god would not only design such into humanity, but ingrain a reward for that as recognition of the highest and noblest of human achievements.)

[I Ratant]

Heaven is dark. It's cold. And you aren't there, because you're dead. Where it's dark and cold.
.
Don't be so negative!
At death, everything stops.
No darkness, no cold, no having to endure the wrath of 72 Viriginians..
It's not even experiencable.. there's nothing left of -you- to experience anything.

[ClassyElf]

.
Don't be so negative!
At death, everything stops.
No darkness, no cold, no having to endure the wrath of 72 Viriginians..
It's not even experiencable.. there's nothing left of -you- to experience anything.

Even that would be a stretch. Any position on the afterlife is pretty much baseless.

[jimtron]

I would follow god's rules if it meant living eternally in paradise versus being damned to suffer in hell (assuming that heaven was paradise and hell horrendous, in my eyes). As long as:

1) I knew with reasonable certainty that there was a god and a heaven and hell and that my actions would determine where I'd end up.

2) God's rules were clear and unambiguous (of course I'd have to know which god was the true one and which rules were to be obeyed and which to ignore, etc).

[Almo]

It also assumed virgins are the most pleasurable, unless it's about something else...

[godless dave]

I was wondering. It's bad enough priests tell you your reward will come in Heaven rather than this life. But the 72 virgins thing smacked a little too hard of suggesting every male's desire was to basically be the successful alpha male who drove away all the other males, leaving you with a bunch of females all to yourself.

To be fair, many of us men do desire that, me included. No virgins for me, though. I prefer experience. And I don't actually want this in real life, but it does accurately describe a situation I would find heavenly.

[HansMustermann]

I was wondering. It's bad enough priests tell you your reward will come in Heaven rather than this life. But the 72 virgins thing smacked a little too hard of suggesting every male's desire was to basically be the successful alpha male who drove away all the other males, leaving you with a bunch of females all to yourself.

Actually, it kinda smacks me of the arabic culture at the time, where how many women you can buy (or kidnap in war!) was an indication of social status. It had nothing to do with driving the other males away and winning the woman's heart. The only "driving away" was (and in the islamist's ideal world still is) either by being the highest bidder, or driving them away at sword point and raping their daughters.

Briefly: it wasn't 20'th century western high-school dating rules. The only negotiating for her heart would be with her father, in cold cash or camels or any other suitable ware, and usually before her ovaries even actually activated, so really she wouldn't be interested in you that way yet anyway. Not that anyone asked her, anyway.

And of course young virgins commanded a higher price and made a better status symbol than widows.

So IMHO it really just wraps up to "you'll be like a king!" Of course, with the props of the medieval tribal culture at the time and place.

Pretty much like saying that in heaven you'll drive a Dodge Viper and have a 100 inch TV, if it were written nowadays in the west. Not that you'd necessarily _need_ them, but they're the suitable penis size compensators at this time. Having a big harem bought as virgins was just medieval version of the same.

[NotJesus]

Mark Twain pretty much nailed it in Letters from the Earth (http://www.online-literature.com/twain/letters-from-the-earth/3/).

[slingblade]

.
Don't be so negative!
At death, everything stops.
No darkness, no cold, no having to endure the wrath of 72 Viriginians..
It's not even experiencable.. there's nothing left of -you- to experience anything.

Yes. I'm aware. Why would you think I was not aware, and needed this?

The inside of a casket is dark.
It is cold, due to being in the ground.
Even though I will not experience those states, being dead, those states still exist nonetheless. Being alive -now-, I know this.

Sigh.

[I Ratant]

As none of those conditions will be evident to you, you not having any existence any more, who cares what they may be?
Funerals and cemeteries and memorials are for the living..to remember with fondness (with any luck at all) those that have passed.

[Tricky]

Well, gee...I could ask Mom, but she's still sitting in that box in my sister's closet.

So in Mom's case, heaven is still dark, but it smells like camphor. ;)

Your sister keeps your mom in the closet? That seems kinda mean. Dad-in-law is on the mantle. He's in the blue urn, right underneath the lady in the see-through negligee.

If that's heaven, he's probably enjoying it.

[jimmygun]

I would follow god's rules if it meant living eternally in paradise versus being damned to suffer in hell (assuming that heaven was paradise and hell horrendous, in my eyes). As long as:

1) I knew with reasonable certainty that there was a god and a heaven and hell and that my actions would determine where I'd end up.

2) God's rules were clear and unambiguous (of course I'd have to know which god was the true one and which rules were to be obeyed and which to ignore, etc).

I would also want assurances that after half an eternity god won't get bored and decide to go ballistic again like so many times before. Don't forget that god had a pretty nice place going until everything went to the toilet when Lu and his followers decided to take him on. It happened once why not again. Me? I don't trust him/her/it/whatever.

[Ravenwood]

Sorry, my heaven is just for me. With My Precious Wife and all of our kids and friends, having, say, a cookout and/or bonfire at our house. I'm sipping a moderately cool Maudite (http://www.unibroue.com/graphs_our_beers/maudite.html) hanging out with my loves and dearest friends.

THAT is my heaven.

Heretic! Everyone knows that it's Trois Pistoles (http://www.unibroue.com/products/3pistoles.cfm) That is truly heaven... :)

[photon]

Islam is often quoted as the 72 virgins, however a well read Islamic friend explained that was a metaphor for your greatest desire
It is a metaphor, alright, but not exactly for "greatest desire". It's a metaphor for "a LOT of poon".

An elaborate answer, with sources, according to Sunni Muslims:

How Many Wives Will The Believers Have In Paradise? (http://www.livingislam.org/fiqhi/sp2-gfh_e.html#9)

Shi'ite Muslims have a similar belief, except, perhaps, that there's even more poon in Shi'ite heaven.

[slingblade]

As none of those conditions will be evident to you, you not having any existence any more, who cares what they may be?
Funerals and cemeteries and memorials are for the living..to remember with fondness (with any luck at all) those that have passed.


Oh, FFS.

My first post was a goddamned joke. MG1962 got it.
My second post was a goddamned joke, too, playing back at MG1962.

Then you come sliming in, thinking you have something of MASSIVE IMPORT to toss down to me, an apparent moron, because for some reason you think I don't know **** about death or grieving, despite my having spent the last two years grieving so hard it's made me sick.

I think, having seen several people buried, and having grieved for two solid years now without surcease of sorrow that I *********** KNOW what funerals and cemetaries and goddamned memorials are for.

Got any other condescending advice you need to pass to lowly, stupid me?

OR ARE YOU QUITE FINISHED?

[DC]

i prefer hell above heaven.

heaven sounds boring, i liked Mother theresa, but i dont want to hang out with here the rest of my eternal live. who else made it up there? Not to much people.

i think i will go to hell and hang out with Jimi Hendrix and Bob Marley :)

[slingblade]

Your sister keeps your mom in the closet? That seems kinda mean. Dad-in-law is on the mantle. He's in the blue urn, right underneath the lady in the see-through negligee.

If that's heaven, he's probably enjoying it.

Yeah. She keeps her in the closet.

She was supposed to bring Mom up here to me, in May of 2008, and she and my brother and I were supposed to scatter her ashes, according to Mom's very clearly expressed wishes.

They didn't bother to show.

[Quinn]

If indeed "heaven is what you make of it," then here is what I'll make of it in the exceedingly unlikely event that I ever find myself there. Apart from the obvious initial requirement of all the sex and ice cream I want, whenever and with whomever and in whatever flavor I want it, the other major element is this: unlimited, instantaneous travel through time and space, with the ability to act as an observer, a participant, or both wherever I land. This would involve everything from hanging out at the Big Bang, to watching the formation of planets, to catching some dinosaur action, to checking out life on other planets (if it's there), to visiting assorted societies throughout human history, to seeing what my parents and grandparents were like as teenagers, to hanging out with my favorite musicians in the studio as they recorded their best stuff, to seeing what all the women I ever fantasized about actually looked like naked.

If anything could keep me amused and occupied for an eternity, I think that would be it. After all, there's always something new and interesting happening somewhere in the space/time continuum.

[Aepervius]

Heaven is dark. It's cold. And you aren't there, because you're dead. Where it's dark and cold.

Actually heaven is very hot. Far hotter than hell (http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/hell.htm). And nowhere I would want to spend eternity on.

[hamelekim]

A lot of my friends have joined the jebus train in the latter parts of our lives and all express a desire to spend eternity in heaven. Of course they think that I should come along but for the life of me I can't think of any scenerio of a heaven that would interest me in the least.


First off, we are not going to spend eternity in Heaven. Jesus is coming to set up a Kingdom on Earth, and we will be here with him. That doesn't mean we might not go back and forth as we want, as the Angels do now, I don't know. I do know that Jesus is going to be on Earth and believers with him.

So you can scratch the eternity sitting on white clouds picture, because that is what Satan wants you to think.

The Bible says in the OT and again in the NT,

"But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him." (1 Corinthians 2:9)

You honestly believe that an Infinite God would have nothing new for us? that we would sit around and be bored for eternity, get tired of God and his presence?

As for heaven not interesting you. I think that has more to do with your lack of Faith in God than in any real intellectual argument.


One friend lost a baby at two months old, thirty years ago and they both firmly believe that they will be reunited in heaven. Now to me, they will have nothing in common with the baby, they have lived here on earth and experienced all that human life offers while the baby went right to heaven with none of the things we all experience.

It would seem that any reunion would be awkward at best. Do you have any explanations for this or other questions about heaven? I ask those around me about this sort of thing but all I get is "Heaven is a place of perfection but I don't know what that will be like."

Seems to me if someone is trying to sell me something they should have some answers to some of my questions but so far nothing.

Is there a site I can visit that attempts to discribe what heaven will be like?

Why would it be awkward? You are overlaying a meeting in heaven with finding a long lost child on earth. That is your own prejudices, not the actual truth of such a meeting.

As for what is heaven like. Being in the presence of infinite Joy and Love is a good start.

[slingblade]

I simply can't fathom how so many adults are so scared of death that they'll convince themselves of any feel-good rubbish to escape the mere thought of it, as if they were still small children.

I mean, you do know how feel-goody stupid it is to think there's such a thing as...what was it again? "Infinite Joy and Love?" With capital letters, no less. Yeah, I'm impressed.

If there's such a thing as Infinite Joy and Love, why should we merit it better after death than right here and now, while alive, breathing, suffering, hurting, going hungry, being raped, being tortured...what kind of monster puts its own children through such hell, because after, there'll be eternal tea and cakes and that makes it all better?

This is a belief for mature, thinking adults? It's pathetic. It's shameful.

[Mashuna]

As for heaven not interesting you. I think that has more to do with your lack of Faith in God than in any real intellectual argument.



You have this backwards. Your interest in heaven is due to your faith in God, not any real intellectual argument.

[jimmygun]

First off, we are not going to spend eternity in Heaven. Jesus is coming to set up a Kingdom on Earth, and we will be here with him. That doesn't mean we might not go back and forth as we want, as the Angels do now, I don't know. I do know that Jesus is going to be on Earth and believers with him.

So you can scratch the eternity sitting on white clouds picture, because that is what Satan wants you to think.

The Bible says in the OT and again in the NT,

"But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him." (1 Corinthians 2:9)

You honestly believe that an Infinite God would have nothing new for us? that we would sit around and be bored for eternity, get tired of God and his presence?

As for heaven not interesting you. I think that has more to do with your lack of Faith in God than in any real intellectual argument.



Why would it be awkward? You are overlaying a meeting in heaven with finding a long lost child on earth. That is your own prejudices, not the actual truth of such a meeting.

As for what is heaven like. Being in the presence of infinite Joy and Love is a good start.



I'm sorry, I'm just not into buying a pig in a poke! Here's the deal...if I buy into your beliefs it means that I must behave myself (the way I am told to behave by those that only pretend to behave that way), I must accept the word of those that would be in charge of my behaviour without question and I am required to tythe 10% of my income to them too. In return I get a very vague promise of (well, I'm not really sure what because so far I haven't gotten any type of answer from anyone). If I am overlaying my prejudices it is because I cannot get any answer (other than silly little feel good cliches) from those that would sell me this pig.

And for your information, I do have a lack of belief, I have a lack of evidence. You choose to believe, I cannot make that choice because no evidence has been presented to make the choice appealing to me.

[I Ratant]

...

OR ARE YOU QUITE FINISHED?
.
Geez, hun, get back on the meds!

[maddog]

Heretic! Everyone knows that it's Trois Pistoles (http://www.unibroue.com/products/3pistoles.cfm) That is truly heaven... :)

Only on Sundays. Maudite is for Fridays and Saturdays. Yukon Jack with "cherry water", Margaritas, and Mojitos are for Mondays through Thursdays.

And speaking of alcohol, "Ravenswood" is a damn fine Zinfandel. Any relation between that and your username?

[SphereGuy]

I hate to tell you all this but the universe will cease to exist when I die, which includes all of you.

[HansMustermann]

I hate to tell you all this but the universe will cease to exist when I die, which includes all of you.

Is it solipsistic in here or is it just me? ;)

[Profwag]

I hear your loved ones are always with you and are constantly watching from above. Soooo, will my parents be watching what my wife and I are doing Saturday night on our anniversary? And if so, how do I look them in the eye if we were to meet up again inside those pearly gates? I mean, there are some things I just don't talk about with my Mom...

[jimmygun]

I hear your loved ones are always with you and are constantly watching from above. Soooo, will my parents be watching what my wife and I are doing Saturday night on our anniversary? And if so, how do I look them in the eye if we were to meet up again inside those pearly gates? I mean, there are some things I just don't talk about with my Mom...

Whatever you are planning to do, do it under the covers, fully clothed and in a dark room. Also be vewy vewy qwiet. It would also behoove you to be both facing down.

[dlorde]

Islam is often quoted as the 72 virgins, however a well read Islamic friend explained that was a metaphor for your greatest desire rather than the actual reward.
That must come as a relief to gay Muslims...

[HansMustermann]

That must come as a relief to gay Muslims...

AFAIK, at least in Iran the gay men are encouraged to get sex change operations. Well, "encouraged" in the sense that it's the only way to have sex with another man that's not illegal. Anyway, apparently the Quran has no problem with that, or so sayeth the Ayatollah.

So I'm guessing the gay muslims can be one of someone else's 72 virgins ;)

[slingblade]

.
Geez, hun, get back on the meds!

What are you implying?

[Marduk]

That must come as a relief to gay Muslims...

why, has someone changed the rules to indicate that only women can be virgins ?

:D

[Ravenwood]

'Fraid not...It comes from my SCA persona, however, my friends have used it as my nickname for about 20 or so years now, so it's kinda habit. But Yes, Ravenswood is a damn fine Zinfandel... :)

[I Ratant]

What are you implying?
.
Perhaps "an overly aggressive response" to what were little more than ponderings on a different view...
.
Such as:
"The grave's a fine and private place,
But none I think do there embrace."
.
Although Quasimodo gave it his best shot.

[Ron_Tomkins]

Heaven?

This is heaven (http://www.terryapodaca.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/07/soccer-team.jpg)

[I Ratant]

Heaven?

This is heaven (http://www.terryapodaca.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/07/soccer-team.jpg)
.
Shouldn't the Emirates representative be in the burqa.. Please say no! :)

[SezMe]

I mean, there are some things I just don't talk about with my Mom...
Maybe not but I'll bet she's got an earful for you.

[scimystic]

It's often been noted from our side that the theists seem to be able to provide almost infinitely more information about their hells than about their heavens.

This could be a hold-over from the derivation of their Supreme Beings. [Unimaginatively; take your biggest baddest bastard template - at that time, someone like Xerxes - and make him bigger and badder]. And eastern despots generally found fear to be a more cost efficient motivator than reward. Torturing people to death is quick and cheep in relation to granting them lands villas and servants. Not to mention providing valuable instruction and diversion for the ones that you're not torturing.

Or it could be from the deep antipathy between all theisms and honest exploratory thought. Real learning (as opposed to memorizing dogma) appears to be about the only human activity that is sufficiently open ended and positive feedback (the more we learn the wider our horizons open, and the better we get at it, and the more fun it gets) to offer any potential for eternal enjoyment. But all of our main theistic texts are full of injunctions against real learning. I guess that they'll just have to stick with the harps, hymn singing and adoration stuff.

[HansMustermann]

You know, interestingly enough, Xerxes like his father Darius were devout Zoroastrians and believed in paid labour. You know, to motivate their employees. They never used slaves.

So it's kinda funny that we inherited the view that Xerxes was the badass tyrant from the greeks... who did use slaves. The Spartans, you know, all good and defenders of democracy, treated their Helots as cattle, and the rite of passage into manhood of a proper Spartan was to go murder one or two to keep them terrorized and thus in line.

Xerxes paid his soldiers. The Spartans, now those brought a couple thousand of Helots (slaves) as support troops, pretty much at sword point. Of course, they usually don't even get counted. What matters are the 300 proper pure-blood Spartans, not the thousands of worthless slaves throwing javelins for them.

And when those arrows of the Persian darkened the skies? Well, nobody gave those Helots an armour. But, hey, let's keep being awed by the sacrifice of the 300 well armoured and armed Spartans, not by the slaves who were driven like cattle to their own sacrifice.

(ETA: For that matter, heck, let's even forget the 700 Thespians, 400 Thebans, and so on, which fought and died there too. They're not as cool as the Spartans, obviously.)

I guess history can be funny like that...

[scimystic]

Good points HansM. I wasn't thinking much about the recent movie in picking Xerxes as an example. Just needed an easily recognizable 'God Emperor'. Most of our historical accounts, which of course come from the Greek side, provide a pretty skewed picture of that battle and its aftermath. And as for the movie.......

As they say, 'History is written by the victors'. And we might add, usualy with blatant propagandistic adjustments.

BR,

Keith

[Oliver]

Is there a site I can visit that attempts to discribe what heaven will be like?


Yes:

http://easterbunny.com/

[Ethnikos]

Yeah. She keeps her in the closet.
She was supposed to bring Mom up here to me, in May of 2008, and she and my brother and I were supposed to scatter her ashes, according to Mom's very clearly expressed wishes.
They didn't bother to show.Messing with "ashes" is no fun.
My former girlfriend's mother died and was cremated. Problem was, she had four sisters and they all wanted some of the remains.
I got the job of splitting it up into five bags. Not something I would want to do again. Luckily it was not someone I was related to.
It doesn't make you feel like being in a big hurry to die, looking at the stuff.

[HansMustermann]

Well, I don't think historically a Zoroastrian could have proclaimed himself to be a god, and more than a Christian could proclaim himself a god nowadays.

As you say, the greeks' accounts of other nations were massively skewed.

[Squidgy]

I am going to repent someday.

[Hokulele]

Is it possible to repent without first penting?

[Squidgy]

Is it possible to repent without first penting?
Probably not, your profile pic always induces indecent images in my mind. I can't think why.

[Geezer]

<snip> (This site is not even sure if animals go to heaven).
<snip>


WHAT??If my cats ain't going to heaven I ain't going either. :D