Freeman on the Land: The Ultimate in Woo Insanity

[LightinDarkness]

I've been wanting to get opinions on the Freeman on the Land (FOTL) pseudo-legal woo movement for a while, but I have been unsure of what to do except to just post about how absurd it is. But I've run across a good FOTL woo story, courtesy of the David Icke forum:
http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=70144

For those unfamiliar with FOTL woo, its the idea that the legal system uses special hidden mechanisms to control people and if you know the "secrets" of the system that you can somehow be free of it and get to ignore the courts and act like you are your own sovereign country. You can live "freeman on the land" and be your own sovereign entity, free of all laws. Of course this is flawed at the start since unless you find your own private island you are living in a sovereign country where you DO have a obligation to obey the laws since you get and receive government services just by driving down the road. But hey, its woo, who cares about logic?

Some of the more amusing fundamentals of FOTL:

- The woos who follow this believe that the way their names appear gives courts power over them. Woos who get hauled into court and use FOTL never answer to "Mr./Mrs. Lastname", but only to something like "The man known as FirstName of the family of LastName." They woo myth here is that you respond to the common courtesy title you will magically become "subject" to the "admiralty court" (see below). Since refusing to be called by something that is just customary generally would cause confusion, they think this means they have found the truth by how judges react.

- FOTL woos believe that somehow the court system operates under "admiralty law" and that they cannot be subject to it as long as they don't "approach the bench" or obey any other court order. In the story above the woo did this by staying in the back of the court room and got thrown in jail overnight because the judge was tired of asking him to come forward and him refusing. The woos somehow think approaching the front of the room is like boarding a ship...which magically makes them subject to the law when they were not before.

- FOTL completely abuses the notion of corporation. Like most woos FOTLers believe that corporations are evil, and don't understand that its a necessity - since we can't sue everyone in a company/the government at once. This causes them to do weird things like proclaiming in the middle of the court room that they will not "contract" with the corporation of the court. Fundamental to FOTL woo is that if you publicly declare you don't "contract" with someone that you can't be made to do anything.

Besides anti-mason hysteria, I think freeman on the land is my #2 most annoying conspiracy of all time. Its so fundamentally flawed and so self-reinforcing (every time the FOTL wooers get thrown in jail, get ignored in court, etc. they claim this is proof its real) that it boggles the minds of those who work in the real world. Additionally, there is also an element of people thinking they can just get out of their debt and obligations by declaring themselves "freeman on the land."

[Stacko]

I've been wanting to get opinions on the Freeman on the Land (FOTL) pseudo-legal woo movement for a while, but I have been unsure of what to do except to just post about how absurd it is. But I've run across a good FOTL woo story, courtesy of the David Icke forum:
http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=70144
-Snip-

That is some of the worst legal advice I have ever seen. I don't want to know what kind of twisted logic they used to come up with the idea that traffic laws only apply to registered vehicles and only to the person or entity the vehicle is registered to. :boggled:

ETA: This is actually the thread and the guy getting thrown in jail. (http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=70660)

[wackyvorlon]

Reminds me of those tax cranks who claim that STEVE MORRIS is not the same person as Steve Morris. But... admiralty law? That's special.

[brodski]

Reminds me of those tax cranks who claim that STEVE MORRIS is not the same person as Steve Morris. But... admiralty law? That's special.

Admiralty law is a staple of the tax nuts along with the UPPER CASE conspiracy, the SSN is they way government owns your kids conspiracy, the US is secretly still part if (and run by) the British Empire conspiracy and so on.

It seems that there is nothing so stupid that some people won't believe if it means that they can delude themselves that they don't have to pay taxes.

[Horatius]

...you will magically become "subject" to the "admiralty court" ...


This is it in a nutshell. It's classical magical thinking applied to the Court system.

In a lot of magical traditions, knowing the "true name" of a person or entity allows you to gain power over them. This is just a modern twist on this old, old notion.

[LightinDarkness]

Reminds me of those tax cranks who claim that STEVE MORRIS is not the same person as Steve Morris. But... admiralty law? That's special.

I think the Freeman woo evolved from the earlier tax-fraud woo, because they also hold the NAMES IN CAPITAL LETTERS ARE NOT THE SAME mythology.

I would love to be a judge when one of these wackos came into the court room.

[LightinDarkness]

This is it in a nutshell. It's classical magical thinking applied to the Court system.

In a lot of magical traditions, knowing the "true name" of a person or entity allows you to gain power over them. This is just a modern twist on this old, old notion.

Yeah I think thats a very good point - it sort of does draw down from the whole idea that most common people perceive the law as not being accessible. The reasonable thing to do by those who hold such views is to verse yourself in the law.

But like all conspiracy theory, the simple solution to the problem never exists. It MUST be some "secret" that "THEY" don't want you to know about...in this case...silly things like not approaching the bench and randomly declaring your sovereignty in a court room.

Sometimes they claim "victories" when they get a ruling in their favor but what really happened is the judge was in a good mood and would have ruled in their favor anyway...and just decided not to let their disruptions mess with the court or charge them with contempt of court.

Then there are the other ones I've found of stories were these woos get hauled off on contempt of court charges, screaming "I AM SOVEREIGN AND I DO NOT CONTRACT WITH YOUR CORPORATION" as if such magical phrases would stop the charges.

[Zorglub]

This was...weird.
Why do i get the feeling they belive they will become some analogue copy of Neo in Matrix? By knowing the words they will be free and can henceforth act as they please umbound by the chains of the matrix. IE: ignoring speedlimits and refuse to repay your debts.

What is all this about CAPITAL LETTERS? Never heard about that before.

[LightinDarkness]

I like the matrix analogy, it does seem to be the way they think about stuff like this.

Edit: person below me got to it on the CAPITAL LETTERS woo.

[elbe]

What is all this about CAPITAL LETTERS? Never heard about that before.

They believe that your it isn't your legal name and if you accept their usage of it you become property of them, or something stupid like that.

Here (http://evans-legal.com/dan/tpfaq.html#capitals)'s an FAQ on Tax Protesters that on the subject.
The claim is sometimes that a name that is all capital letters is not the name of the human taxpayer but the name of an artificial entity, sometimes referred to as a “straw man,” which has the same name but which is a separate artificial “juristic person” created by the taxpayer’s birth certificate or other government action.

[GreNME]

What is all this about CAPITAL LETTERS? Never heard about that before.

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1328/1484615917_cad5ab7172.jpg

[Zorglub]

They believe that your it isn't your legal name and if you accept their usage of it you become property of them, or something stupid like that.

Here (http://evans-legal.com/dan/tpfaq.html#capitals)'s an FAQ on Tax Protesters that on the subject.

Oh the humanity. This is even more crazy than the moon-landing deniers.

[JoeyDonuts]

I would love to hear LashL's take on this.

I fear her response might be a one-word epithet and wouldn't make it past the autocensor.

[Horatius]

Oh the humanity. This is even more crazy than the moon-landing deniers.



At least with the moon bats, they're not faced with constant return trips to the Moon, where we can clearly see the results of Apollo. Not so with these Courts based woos, who keep running face first into lawyers and judges who keep telling them they're just plan wrong.

[Praktik]

this looks a lot like the "natural person" stuff I've seen bandied about.

A canadian example here: http://www.natural-person.ca/

[Zorglub]

At least with the moon bats, they're not faced with constant return trips to the Moon, where we can clearly see the results of Apollo. Not so with these Courts based woos, who keep running face first into lawyers and judges who keep telling them they're just plan wrong.

You are correct. This FMOL "conspiracy" is therefore from now on No 1 on my list of stupid ideas on a gargantuan scale.


I loved this quote from the Tax Protesters FAQ
http://evans-legal.com/dan/tpfaq.html#capitals
“Wright brings what he has labeled a ‘motion to dismiss for plaintiff’s lack of standing and misjoinder of parties.’ First, he contends that since the amended complaint states that this action is brought against ‘FLOYD A. WRIGHT’ and his name is ‘Floyd A. Wright’, he is not the proper defendant. ... These arguments are patently frivolous and the motion is thus summarily DENIED.
I´m not familiar with U.S law but I´m pretty sure the use of capital letters in "denied" is a tounge in cheek from the judge :D


Now, I can sort of sympathize with those who wants to live without any connections to state, goverment och other people and feel frustrated that this is impossible unless you have your own personal nation.. Not my cup of tea, I like civilization, but I can understand the idea.
But most of these people seems to only want be able to roam around as they want using roads, public school, banks, Wal-mart without ever taking respinsibility for their own actions.
-I shot Jim Bems cow you said?
-Yes, witnesses puts you on the scene, with a gun, aiming and pulling the trigger wereupon Jim Beams cow fell dead down. We retracted the bullet. It´s from your gun. The same witnesses places you in the car that drove 90 mph on a 20 mph road passing the local daycare then smashing into Mrs Wendelbaums tractor causing it to explode. I belive I see that car right behind you sir, in you rgarage, seems pretty demolished if you ask me
-Aha! So you say. But I see here on your warrant that you have the right to search the premises of a HEINRICH PLOPP.
-And that would be you sir.
-No. I´m Heinrich Plopp. Not at all the same guy.
-Yes, Heinrich Plopp. That is you
-No, I´m not HEINRICH PLOPP. Heinrich Plopp I say. This magic voodoo mumbo-jumbo-paper you have there speaks of some entity not connected to me by others means that we have the same letters in the same order in our names. Capital Letters breaks the spell you see. It´s all in the law somewhere. Put there by ancient freemasons who wanted a legal loophole.
-Sir. Please turn around and show me your hands

[D'rok]

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1328/1484615917_cad5ab7172.jpghttp://s3.amazonaws.com/twitpic/photos/full/15076347.jpg?AWSAccessKeyId=0ZRYP5X5F6FSMBCCSE82&Expires=1246545346&Signature=aiWRNrpcXYtehyN8wYw2OxmRbCQ%3D


http://twitpic.com/8z4zfhttp://twitpic.com/8z4zf

[ktesibios]

This is it in a nutshell. It's classical magical thinking applied to the Court system.

In a lot of magical traditions, knowing the "true name" of a person or entity allows you to gain power over them. This is just a modern twist on this old, old notion.

"But above and beyond there's still one name left over,
And that is the name that you never will guess;
The name that no human research can discover -
But THE CAT HIMSELF KNOWS, and will never confess.
When you notice a cat in profound meditation,
The reason, I tell you, is always the same:
His mind is engaged in a rapt contemplation
Of the thought, of the thought, of the thought of his name:
His ineffable effable
Effanineffable
Deep and inscrutable singular Name."

Sorry. Couldn't help myself.

[JimBenArm]

I served on a jury that tried a fraud case in federal court. The defense presented some of these arguments, but the judge basically smacked them in the head for being stupid. I believe (don't know) that they tried to introduce more of these while we (the jury) were not in the courtroom, and there were quite a few sidebars that I know had something to do with this nonsense. Quite entertaining! I only wish I had been one of the full jury, and not an alternate. Would have loved to hear some of the jury discussion!

[LightinDarkness]

Now, I can sort of sympathize with those who wants to live without any connections to state, goverment och other people and feel frustrated that this is impossible unless you have your own personal nation.. Not my cup of tea, I like civilization, but I can understand the idea.
But most of these people seems to only want be able to roam around as they want using roads, public school, banks, Wal-mart without ever taking respinsibility for their own actions.

This is originally what made this movement so annoying to me. Here we have a group of people acting like they want to live like anarchists, being subject to no laws or government authority - and then they take the jeep down the road to WAL-MART to pick up some survivalist supplies and ont he way back stop at their local library to talk about their recent court case where they pulled this stuff.

[Sunray Breaker]

I've been reading this freeman stuff for a while and was fascinated with how in depth they go with this madness. I can understand why they feel the way they feel, but unfortunately it just doesn't apply...

To answer your question about where they get this capitol letter stuff from...
It's called "Capitis Deminutio Maxima" a phrase from Roman law that refers to the diminution of a person's legal status as a result of being reduced to slavery (see also Black's Law Dictionary 8th Edition page 223).

The word capitis is the Latin genitive of "caput" meaning status or civil rights. However, It does not refer to the capitalization of letters in your name.

WHat's even funnier and an even bigger "Holy Crap!!! Really" thing I just heard about...

According to a 2003 Reuter's article, Blacks Law Dictionary (The source that many Freemen cling to) itself is a hoax!
Sarah Medhurst, Great Great Granddaughter of Henry Campbell Black, revealed this to a room of shocked legal scholars and journalists back in May 2003.

I was quite fascinated by this, especially the other side of all this, which I'd like the skeptics to explain to me some more, "The Capturing the Strawman." theory.

This is a theory that suggests that if you fill out a UCC-1 financing statement and file a Lein against you STRAWMAN (<- your name in all caps on your birth certificate) and declare yourself seperate from it, you can access a ton of money through it.

There's a lot of silly stuff about this...Also, they claim that there's a number in all red on the back of your BC that is a number you can pull up in the stock exchange with your name next to a dollar amount. They claim your being used as a tradeble human resource, and you can access these funds by filing a lein against them...This particular part I was hoping someone could explain to me, because I've always wondered about this. I'd be a bit disturbed if I were to look up my name in the stock market and find a dollar value, can someone elaborate?

[D'rok]

According to a 2003 Reuter's article, Blacks Law Dictionary (The source that many Freemen cling to) itself is a hoax!
Sarah Medhurst, Great Great Granddaughter of Henry Campbell Black, revealed this to a room of shocked legal scholars and journalists back in May 2003.

Huh?

[LightinDarkness]

According to a 2003 Reuter's article, Blacks Law Dictionary (The source that many Freemen cling to) itself is a hoax!
Sarah Medhurst, Great Great Granddaughter of Henry Campbell Black, revealed this to a room of shocked legal scholars and journalists back in May 2003.

And of course, even if the entries were found in the law dictionary, Black's Law does NOT establish the founding legal concepts of the United States or any other country.



This is a theory that suggests that if you fill out a UCC-1 financing statement and file a Lein against you STRAWMAN (<- your name in all caps on your birth certificate) and declare yourself seperate from it, you can access a ton of money through it.

That they claim this is hilarious, since all a UCC-1 is, is a form for small business to establish a security interest in a loan. I think the woo theory would be here that since YOUR NAME IN ALL CAPS is some commodity being sold on the market, that you could establish yourself as a secured creditor - the problem being that YOUR NAME IN ALL CAPS means nothing, and if you filed a UCC-1 trying to establish yourself as a creditor and then declared bankruptcy the court would simply laugh at you.


There's a lot of silly stuff about this...Also, they claim that there's a number in all red on the back of your BC that is a number you can pull up in the stock exchange with your name next to a dollar amount. They claim your being used as a tradeble human resource, and you can access these funds by filing a lein against them...This particular part I was hoping someone could explain to me, because I've always wondered about this. I'd be a bit disturbed if I were to look up my name in the stock market and find a dollar value, can someone elaborate?

This is true, except that you aren't pulling up your info, you are typing in a mutual fund number. It doesn't work with all birth certificates but, because of the sheer large number of mutual funds, you will find a match occasionally.

It is 100% of course, the mutual fund is a real financial instrument that happens by chance to be the same number on the birth certificate.

[D'rok]

Black's Law Dictionary is quite real. I have no idea what Sunray is on about.

[Zorglub]

This is originally what made this movement so annoying to me. Here we have a group of people acting like they want to live like anarchists, being subject to no laws or government authority - and then they take the jeep down the road to WAL-MART to pick up some survivalist supplies and ont he way back stop at their local library to talk about their recent court case where they pulled this stuff.

Oops, seems i made some sort of freudiam slip there mixing swedish with english and some alcohol.

But yeah. It IS annoying reading this almost medieval belief in the power of your name. And still oh so fascinating. I guess it us the flipside of the coin of law. It is so complicated miscomprehensions like this are almost impossible to erradicate.
It reminds me of myth sort of i heard as a teenageer.
The story was this: McD once had a campaign where y
you'd get Big Mac "extra" just by ordering just thatc. This would get you a BM with double of everything except the meat fresh of the grill served at the table.
As McD offically never cancelled the campaign it was, as the myth goes, still possible, yers afterwards, possible to order a BM "extra". I tried this a few T
times, and lo and behold, it worked.
I soon learnt that this was not because i found a secret way to cheat the man for some extra sallad. The staff didn't give a rats a** if they gave some annoying teenager free salad and dressing just to get rid of him to help the next person in line.
But it felt great for a moment having this "special" knowledge that could bring me a fresh burger just by using the secret Word.

[LightinDarkness]

Black's Law Dictionary is quite real. I have no idea what Sunray is on about.

Hes going on that the entries the FOTLers use are either

(1) Made up
or
(2) Were taken hilariously out of context from real entries

There is no dispute that quite a bit of the FOTL woo is based on made-up Black Law entries, and there is also no dispute that Black's Law does not form the basis for legal theory to begin with - so even if such entries exist, they would mean little when it comes time to win the court case.

[D'rok]

Hes going on that the entries the FOTLers use are either

(1) Made up
or
(2) Were taken hilariously out of context from real entries

There is no dispute that quite a bit of the FOTL woo is based on made-up Black Law entries, and there is also no dispute that Black's Law does not form the basis for legal theory to begin with - so even if such entries exist, they would mean little when it comes time to win the court case.

Actually, he seems to have rather uncritically parroted an obvious hoax. Source here:

http://100777.com/node/189

Black's isn't a hoax. That article is.

[ktesibios]

Interesting. I had assumed that the whole "punctuate your way to impunity" schtick was just a USAian thing, but here's somebody whipping it out in New Zealand.

Does this type of woo also infect non English-speaking countries or is it strictly limited to places where the legal system is of English descent?

[LightinDarkness]

Actually, he seems to have rather uncritically parroted an obvious hoax. Source here:

http://100777.com/node/189

Black's isn't a hoax. That article is.

OK, so someone wrote a hoax article about it.

Regardless, I think yet again the point is that the FOTL woo is based on parts of Black's Law WHICH DOESN'T EXIST. The fact that someone parodied the whole thing as being a hoax has no bearing on the fact the FOTL use of Black's Law is egregiously stupid.

[LightinDarkness]

Interesting. I had assumed that the whole "punctuate your way to impunity" schtick was just a USAian thing, but here's somebody whipping it out in New Zealand.

Does this type of woo also infect non English-speaking countries or is it strictly limited to places where the legal system is of English descent?

I think the core source of the woo draws on the idea of English common law, so systems which don't use that as a legal tradition are not likely to be infected. Many countries that don't speak English still use the common law legal tradition though. However, this is woo we are talking about and its all mythology, so I wouldn't put it past the nutters to make this some sort of universal legal theory.

[Horatius]

Actually, he seems to have rather uncritically parroted an obvious hoax. Source here:

http://100777.com/node/189

Black's isn't a hoax. That article is.



Are the comments part of the hoax? Because, if not, this bit is *********** hi-larious!


If you don't believe that courts don't care about words, try this the next time you get a 'traffic ticket'; ask the court, and the policeman, what makes them think your automobile is a 'motor vehicle'? Ask them, since you received a 'traffic ticket', just what goods were you 'trafficing' in? And since the fine is to be paid in so many 'dollars', ask them what a 'dollar' is. Watch them look at you like you are insane. Tell them that you can't understand the nature and cause of the charges unless they explain their semantics.

[D'rok]

Are the comments part of the hoax? Because, if not, this bit is *********** hi-larious!

I think that is a 100% genuine stundie-beast in its natural habitat. It's a skittish creature that is easily startled and believes everything vaguely paranoid-sounding that it reads on the Intertubes. Approach with caution.

[D'rok]

OK, so someone wrote a hoax article about it.

Regardless, I think yet again the point is that the FOTL woo is based on parts of Black's Law WHICH DOESN'T EXIST. The fact that someone parodied the whole thing as being a hoax has no bearing on the fact the FOTL use of Black's Law is egregiously stupid.

Indeed.

[Cl1mh4224rd]

Are the comments part of the hoax? Because, if not, this bit is *********** hi-larious!

If you don't believe that courts don't care about words, try this the next time you get a 'traffic ticket'; ask the court, and the policeman, what makes them think your automobile is a 'motor vehicle'? Ask them, since you received a 'traffic ticket', just what goods were you 'trafficing' in? And since the fine is to be paid in so many 'dollars', ask them what a 'dollar' is. Watch them look at you like you are insane. Tell them that you can't understand the nature and cause of the charges unless they explain their semantics.


It's like these people think "contempt of court" is some kind of defense strategy...

[elbe]

They believe that your it isn't your legal name and if you accept their usage of it you become property of them, or something stupid like that.

Is it odd that it really bothers me that my sentence above is clearly missing words but it's far too late to edit it?

Back on topic, Quatloos (http://www.quatloos.com/tax_protestors.php) is another interesting site for tax protester information.

[Klimax]

Interesting. I had assumed that the whole "punctuate your way to impunity" schtick was just a USAian thing, but here's somebody whipping it out in New Zealand.

Does this type of woo also infect non English-speaking countries or is it strictly limited to places where the legal system is of English descent?

No.We have for this bribes... ;) (And several times completely rebuilt law)

Is it odd that it really bothers me that my sentence above is clearly missing words but it's far too late to edit it?

Back on topic, Quatloos (http://www.quatloos.com/tax_protestors.php) is another interesting site for tax protester information.

Strangely it was quite comprehensible to me...

[Stacko]

Yeah I think thats a very good point - it sort of does draw down from the whole idea that most common people perceive the law as not being accessible. The reasonable thing to do by those who hold such views is to verse yourself in the law.

They're not good at that either. (http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=71143) Some highlights from this odd perversion dealing with a mortgage contract.

Since dd/mm/yyyy it has come to the attention of us, via the Bank of England website and reading of the Gold Standard Act 1925, that the pound is no longer linked to a standard or anything else of value. By this we mean that if a man or woman carrying a promissory note (bank note) issued by the Bank of England with the wording written across it that states “I promise to pay the bearer on demand the sum of…” attempts to exchange this with the issuer for something of value, they cannot, and will only be provided with a similar promissory note. Therefore money has no true value.

Can you see where this is going yet?

Consideration – We have promised to provide our house as surety for the loan of 250,000 pounds from you and agreed to pay back to you the loan amount plus any interested accrued. In light of the recent findings described above we cannot at present see any consideration provided by you.

I can't wait to see what other conspiracies they start to add in! :D

[Travis]

This Freeman stuff is big in the white power movement isn't it?

[TheDaver]

every time the FOTL wooers get thrown in jail, get ignored in court, etc. they claim this is proof its real
Shouldn’t being thrown in jail, despite following the premises of FOTL as they know them, prove to them that it isn’t real?

CTs’ immunity to logic never ceases to amaze me.…

[LightinDarkness]

Shouldn’t being thrown in jail, despite following the premises of FOTL as they know them, prove to them that it isn’t real?

CTs’ immunity to logic never ceases to amaze me.…

You'd be right, were we thinking logically. But, this being woo, logic is thrown out the window. The idea is that the courts really know that they should have been let free but they are doing something illegal by holding them in contempt of court, throwing them in jail as guilty, etc.

You see, the NWO is after the FOTLers and tries to "trick" them in court.

[LightinDarkness]

This Freeman stuff is big in the white power movement isn't it?

Partly, in as much as it also has roots in the tax protester woo (or is an off shoot of it). But the appeal of it as having the "magic words" to make the legal system do your will is embraced by woos regardless of race. I have a undergraduate who is African American who buys it whole sale - he interrupted my lecture on the constitution (POLI 101 stuff) to tell me that the constitution had been thrown out with the Federal Reserve and we are now under Admiralty law.

[Bluekush623]

I've been wanting to get opinions on the Freeman on the Land (FOTL) pseudo-legal woo movement for a while, but I have been unsure of what to do except to just post about how absurd it is. But I've run across a good FOTL woo story, courtesy of the David Icke forum:
http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=70144

For those unfamiliar with FOTL woo, its the idea that the legal system uses special hidden mechanisms to control people and if you know the "secrets" of the system that you can somehow be free of it and get to ignore the courts and act like you are your own sovereign country. You can live "freeman on the land" and be your own sovereign entity, free of all laws. Of course this is flawed at the start since unless you find your own private island you are living in a sovereign country where you DO have a obligation to obey the laws since you get and receive government services just by driving down the road. But hey, its woo, who cares about logic?

If being a skeptic you must realize both government and religion are only middle men.

Being a Freeman has nothing to do with ignoring courts or living as a sovereign country, its about being free choose who we contract with(Same with what school, religion, car dealership).
Who says someone has an obligation. Without consent there is no representation(IE Contract).

Just cause someone built a road doesn't mean I owe them anything, even if commissioned by local government, that's all ego talk, the people who built it got paid(and I'm not gonna go into money here that's all whole different topic). Now of course most people are already too deep into the governments rabbit hole to get out, but it doesn't mean they are wrong they are just locked and shackled for life.

The argument really comes down too what is Public and Private. Another issue is the definition of Society.

Government at its founding core is a private institution. Its a group of people(Not All People) who have a common goal. But it has become such a large society(group of people/not everyone) it has become known as being Public.



Some of the more amusing fundamentals of FOTL:

- The woos who follow this believe that the way their names appear gives courts power over them. Woos who get hauled into court and use FOTL never answer to "Mr./Mrs. Lastname", but only to something like "The man known as FirstName of the family of LastName." They woo myth here is that you respond to the common courtesy title you will magically become "subject" to the "admiralty court" (see below). Since refusing to be called by something that is just customary generally would cause confusion, they think this means they have found the truth by how judges react.


All that's trying to be done here is to distinguish which is the governments hand writing and the private persons hand writing. If they wear blue hats on Tuesdays ill wear a red one.You can debate whether or not they choose the right different color all you want.


- FOTL woos believe that somehow the court system operates under "admiralty law" and that they cannot be subject to it as long as they don't "approach the bench" or obey any other court order. In the story above the woo did this by staying in the back of the court room and got thrown in jail overnight because the judge was tired of asking him to come forward and him refusing. The woos somehow think approaching the front of the room is like boarding a ship...which magically makes them subject to the law when they were not before.


Again its about distinguishing yourself as private party and not being one of "them".


- FOTL completely abuses the notion of corporation. Like most woos FOTLers believe that corporations are evil, and don't understand that its a necessity - since we can't sue everyone in a company/the government at once. This causes them to do weird things like proclaiming in the middle of the court room that they will not "contract" with the corporation of the court. Fundamental to FOTL woo is that if you publicly declare you don't "contract" with someone that you can't be made to do anything.


As a skeptic calling corporation necessary is dishonest like this whole post.
If you actually read, the United states is a corporation in the Statutes and Acts.(Make believe laws)

(15) “United States” means—
(A) a Federal corporation;
(B) an agency, department, commission, board, or other entity of the United States; or
(C) an instrumentality of the United States.

All the way at the Bottom:
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/28/3002.html


Besides anti-mason hysteria, I think freeman on the land is my #2 most annoying conspiracy of all time. Its so fundamentally flawed and so self-reinforcing (every time the FOTL wooers get thrown in jail, get ignored in court, etc. they claim this is proof its real) that it boggles the minds of those who work in the real world. Additionally, there is also an element of people thinking they can just get out of their debt and obligations by declaring themselves "freeman on the land."

People who think they can get out of their debt are being dishonest, just like you.

[Horatius]

As a skeptic calling corporation necessary is dishonest like this whole post.
If you actually read, the United states is a corporation in the Statutes and Acts.(Make believe laws)

(15) “United States” means—
(A) a Federal corporation;
(B) an agency, department, commission, board, or other entity of the United States; or
(C) an instrumentality of the United States.

All the way at the Bottom:
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/28/3002.html





How about you try reading all the way at the top first?

§ 3002. Definitions

As used in this chapter:

Which "chapter" is that?

CHAPTER 176—FEDERAL DEBT COLLECTION PROCEDURE (http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/28/usc_sup_01_28_10_VI_20_176.html)


All this "definition" does is establish that a Federal corporation falls under the term "United States" where ever that term appears in this particular chapter.


People who think they can get out of their debt are being dishonest, just like you.


And what about people who misrepresent the text of the law?

[Horatius]

Hey, let's play around with a few more of those definitions!

(8) “Judgment” means a judgment, order, or decree entered in favor of the United States in a court and arising from a civil or criminal proceeding regarding a debt.

Woah! So only the "United States" can get a "judgment"! This means the courts are fixed!

(14) “State” means any of the several States, the District of Columbia, the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico, the Commonwealth of the Northern Marianas, or any territory or possession of the United States.


Hey! They're trying to sneak Puerto Rico into being a State! Not to mention DC!


(2) “Court” means any court created by the Congress of the United States, excluding the United States Tax Court.

Woah! So "State Courts" are not really "courts"! They must be illegitimate, then! And I told you the Tax Courts didn't have any authority!



Or, maybe just possibly, these "definitions" are not meant to be comprehensive definitions that apply throughout the entire body of law. Maybe. Just possibly.

[Bluekush623]

How about you try reading all the way at the top first?
Which "chapter" is that?

What Chapter should it be listed in then? Actually I'm not surprised it's found under debt collection.


All this "definition" does is establish that a Federal corporation falls under the term "United States" where ever that term appears in this particular chapter.

It it says UNITED STATES FALLS UNDER FEDERAL CORPORATION; etc/

(15) “United States” means—
(A) a Federal corporation;
(B) an agency, department, commission, board, or other entity of the United States; or
(C) an instrumentality of the United States.


And what about people who misrepresent the text of the law?

How bout people who create make believe laws.

[Bluekush623]

Hey, let's play around with a few more of those definitions!



Woah! So only the "United States" can get a "judgment"! This means the courts are fixed!




Hey! They're trying to sneak Puerto Rico into being a State! Not to mention DC!




Woah! So "State Courts" are not really "courts"! They must be illegitimate, then! And I told you the Tax Courts didn't have any authority!



Or, maybe just possibly, these "definitions" are not meant to be comprehensive definitions that apply throughout the entire body of law. Maybe. Just possibly.

this is dribble, most something meaningful.

[LightinDarkness]

If being a skeptic you must realize both government and religion are only middle men.

No, that would be a CT view.


Being a Freeman has nothing to do with ignoring courts or living as a sovereign country, its about being free choose who we contract with(Same with what school, religion, car dealership).
Who says someone has an obligation. Without consent there is no representation(IE Contract).

Well, you can't live as a Freeman because its woo - you are already free to contract with whom you want and who you don't want to. Freeman woo is designed to get you out of contracts you legitimately entered into (like the mortgage and credit card debts linked in this very thread).

No one is forcing you into contracts you don't consent to. You enter into them and want to get out of them using legalistic woo that doesn't work.


Just cause someone built a road doesn't mean I owe them anything, even if commissioned by local government, that's all ego talk, the people who built it got paid(and I'm not gonna go into money here that's all whole different topic). Now of course most people are already too deep into the governments rabbit hole to get out, but it doesn't mean they are wrong they are just locked and shackled for life.

WRONG! You as a citizen elected representatives to carry out your will. If they decide to put a road in, your paying for it and should pay for it. If you didn't want a road there then don't vote for the people who will put one in or move somewhere else.

The government doesn't lock or shackle you, more woo on your part.


The argument really comes down too what is Public and Private. Another issue is the definition of Society.

No, it really doesn't. Its about public goods. Public goods that we all own and you will pay for as long as you live in the country.


Government at its founding core is a private institution. Its a group of people(Not All People) who have a common goal. But it has become such a large society(group of people/not everyone) it has become known as being Public.

You seriously have no idea what the difference between private and public is, do you? The above is completely wrong/woo/made up. Government is a public institution because it provides goods that individuals cannot provide for themselves or would not provide for themselves.


All that's trying to be done here is to distinguish which is the governments hand writing and the private persons hand writing. If they wear blue hats on Tuesdays ill wear a red one.You can debate whether or not they choose the right different color all you want.

This is a distinction that doesn't exist. Its not real. The government's writing is the same writing we always use.


Again its about distinguishing yourself as private party and not being one of "them".

Doesn't matter, as long as you live in the country you can distinguish yourself all you want - you are STILL subject to the laws of the land.


As a skeptic calling corporation necessary is dishonest like this whole post.
If you actually read, the United states is a corporation in the Statutes and Acts.(Make believe laws)

(15) “United States” means—
(A) a Federal corporation;
(B) an agency, department, commission, board, or other entity of the United States; or
(C) an instrumentality of the United States.

This demonstrates the common woo obsession over corporations as if it were some secret that the government was a corporation or that this means that the government operates in a way that a private business does. Your misunderstanding of what corporation means is a standard woo talking point.

All a corporation is a entity that exists so I can bring grievances against it. If the government is a corporation thats good news - its in fact required - because if I had a problem with government and it wasn't a corporation who would I sue? Everyone? Are you going to help me bring every member of government, elected officials and bureaucrats, into a court room? Thats the point of a corporation - I can sue the entity as a whole.

Statutes aren't make believes laws in anywhere but woo imaginations. They are laws just like anything else.



People who think they can get out of their debt are being dishonest, just like you.

Wait I'm dishonest for debunking you? Thats a new one. And as we've seen plenty of your fellow woos get off trying to use freeman on the land woo to get out of debts that owe.

[LightinDarkness]

this is dribble, most something meaningful.

In other words, what bluekush623 here is saying is that:

"I don't have a defense for any of this because I believe in woo legalism that isn't based on facts or reality. Instead I will summarily dismiss all the points that debunk me and act like no one sees that I have been debunked."

[Bluekush623]

No, that would be a CT view.

Well, you can't live as a Freeman because its woo - you are already free to contract with whom you want and who you don't want to. Freeman woo is designed to get you out of contracts you legitimately entered into (like the mortgage and credit card debts linked in this very thread).

Any name is Woo whether its citizen or freeman, because we are also many other things such as fathers, mothers, brothers, sisters, friends, etc.

Exactly and one may wish to not contract with any government. Being a freeman is not too get out of contracts/debts you legitimately entered its so you prevent such a thing for future generations and if possible to obtain freedom if able to do so without dishonoring the person you signed the contract with. another thing is almost all of our parents signed our government papers when we were children aka incapable of knowing/understanding such a thing, which then should make anything void with which we don't agree with.


No one is forcing you into contracts you don't consent to. You enter into them and want to get out of them using legalistic woo that doesn't work.

No one is saying we were forced. the government pimped us into it. Again no one entered into anything, we were brought up in a society with parents that did our bidding, most people dont even know you dont by law have to have a social security number. If your saying we cant dis band government then thats slavery bro.


WRONG! You as a citizen elected representatives to carry out your will. If they decide to put a road in, your paying for it and should pay for it. If you didn't want a road there then don't vote for the people who will put one in or move somewhere else.

HAHAHAHAHA, "WRONG! You as a citizen elected representatives to carry out your will" THIS IS A MIDDLE MAN, dummy.Try debunking me, your just an unintelligible cointel.

Everyone doesnt also have to be a citizen. 2+ parties can exist at once.


The government doesn't lock or shackle you, more woo on your part.


Then if you cant disband its slavery.


No, it really doesn't. Its about public goods. Public goods that we all own and you will pay for as long as you live in the country.




You seriously have no idea what the difference between private and public is, do you? The above is completely wrong/woo/made up. Government is a public institution because it provides goods that individuals cannot provide for themselves or would not provide for themselves.


Its not public its a private society.

Im afraid you dont.


This is a distinction that doesn't exist. Its not real. The government's writing is the same writing we always use.


do you proofread what you say? If the governments hand writings is the same we always use, thats why people are making a distinction. People can exist without government.


Doesn't matter, as long as you live in the country you can distinguish yourself all you want - you are STILL subject to the laws of the land.


did you know statues and acts arent laws.

It is important to realise that a statute in and of itself is not a law de jure but merely de facto. It is a legislated rule of a society which has been given the force of law, by consent of the governed.

NO CONSENT NO GOVERNANCE


This demonstrates the common woo obsession over corporations as if it were some secret that the government was a corporation or that this means that the government operates in a way that a private business does. Your misunderstanding of what corporation means is a standard woo talking point.


So you agree its a corp. sigh


All a corporation is a entity that exists so I can bring grievances against it. If the government is a corporation thats good news - its in fact required - because if I had a problem with government and it wasn't a corporation who would I sue? Everyone? Are you going to help me bring every member of government, elected officials and bureaucrats, into a court room? Thats the point of a corporation - I can sue the entity as a whole.


They just want to be left alone. Stop the fighting.


Statutes aren't make believes laws in anywhere but woo imaginations. They are laws just like anything else.


Solved Above, its the Woo imagination of the PROUD UNITED STATES CITIZEN, So Help Me God.


Wait I'm dishonest for debunking you? Thats a new one. And as we've seen plenty of your fellow woos get off trying to use freeman on the land woo to get out of debts that owe.

that's dishonest stop bringing it back to debts, that's a small percentage of dishonest people, who don't know enough.

[Bluekush623]

In other words, what bluekush623 here is saying is that:

"I don't have a defense for any of this because I believe in woo legalism that isn't based on facts or reality. Instead I will summarily dismiss all the points that debunk me and act like no one sees that I have been debunked."

legalism is woo.

[D'rok]

legalism is woo.
Irony is delicious.

[Horatius]

"You can lead a horse to water...." Sigh.

[Cl1mh4224rd]

Being a Freeman has nothing to do with ignoring courts or living as a sovereign country, its about being free choose who we contract with(Same with what school, religion, car dealership).


So... renounce your U.S. citizenship and become a citizen of a country that better suits you (Just like schools, religion, car dealerships, etc.). You're very much free to do that.

[jezcoe]

I first heard about this sort of woo last year when a coworker talked about phantom accounts set up by the Federal Reserve st your birth. Since this nonsense was new to me I looked it up. This Freeman stuff seems to be a rehash of the "Redemption Movement." The legal ideas were made out of whole cloth by Roger Elvick, a white supremacist to bilk money out of other white supremacists. It seems that this woo has trickled down to tax protestors and oddly enough among black nationalists. For more info read follow the links.

http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?pid=145

And for info on Roger Elvick.

http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?aid=544

[Red3]

The entire monetary system and legal system was invented by our reptilian controllers - spread through ancient Sumer, Rome and then Great Britain (oh, and the Khazar jews) - to enslave us and use our fear to feed them as they shift between dimensions... The only reason we can't see all this is because of the fluoride, aspartame, msg and meat we consume, that all lower our vibrations. :D

I've got no idea what kind of law the British legal system is based on...Even it is built around admiralty law, so what? It seems to work fairly well.

If the freeman on the land people are right and they're not bound by law, does that mean they're not recognized as citizens and protected under thier country's laws either?! Can I go and punch one of em and get away with it?

[D'rok]

The entire monetary system and legal system was invented by our reptilian controllers - spread through ancient Sumer, Rome and then Great Britain (oh, and the Khazar jews) - to enslave us and use our fear to feed them as they shift between dimensions... The only reason we can't see all this is because of the fluoride, aspartame, msg and meat we consume, that all lower our vibrations. :D

You forgot about chemtrails. CHEMTRAILS!!!

[Red3]

You forgot about chemtrails. CHEMTRAILS!!!

Doh!

Must be the chemtrails that made me forgot about the chemtrails.

[Bluekush623]

the last 7 posts have been common dribble/non sense from so called skeptics. you guys are worse then your counterparts. grow up people.

[LightinDarkness]

You can see by the ever more hysterical responses by bluekush that hes a typical follower of the Freeman moment: no facts, just wanting those secret "magic words" that "free" him from a legal system that doesn't have him chained. Typical rage against the machine nonsense - his other posts were all in praise of Zeitgeist propaganda, so you know what kind of CTer were working with here.

Any name is Woo whether its citizen or freeman, because we are also many other things such as fathers, mothers, brothers, sisters, friends, etc.

Wrong. The court system doesn't care, nor does the law. You can call yourself Conspiracy Theorist Bluekush, of the Family of Woo, and you are still subject to all the laws of the land.


Exactly and one may wish to not contract with any government.

You have the right: move somewhere else. As long as you are here, you will contract with the government. By living here it is your agreement to contract with the government of the land.


Being a freeman is not too get out of contracts/debts you legitimately entered its so you prevent such a thing for future generations and if possible to obtain freedom if able to do so without dishonoring the person you signed the contract with. another thing is almost all of our parents signed our government papers when we were children aka incapable of knowing/understanding such a thing, which then should make anything void with which we don't agree with.

The whole "dishonor/honor" thing is freeman woo and doesn't matter in the real world. Freeman is entirely about getting out of debts you legitimately owe, like credit cards and mortgages, although I grant there are other parts that are just woo and have nothing to do with that.

Parent's don't sign any government papers that put you under any sort of obligation.


No one is saying we were forced. the government pimped us into it. Again no one entered into anything, we were brought up in a society with parents that did our bidding, most people dont even know you dont by law have to have a social security number. If your saying we cant dis band government then thats slavery bro.

Wrong. Its called the social contract. By living here you subject yourself to the laws of the land. Don't like it? Fine, move somewhere else.

Everyone knows you don't HAVE to have a social security number, but by not having one because of Freeman woo you only harm yourself. There is nothing wrong with having one.


HAHAHAHAHA, "WRONG! You as a citizen elected representatives to carry out your will" THIS IS A MIDDLE MAN, dummy.Try debunking me, your just an unintelligible cointel.

Wrong. As you can tell by the hysterical language, this one is near the ledge. Elected representatives are elected to carry out your will - don't like it? Don't vote for them.


Everyone doesnt also have to be a citizen. 2+ parties can exist at once.

Sure, you don't have to be a citizen, and you also don't have a right to live here while I pay for the things you use.


Then if you cant disband its slavery.

Only in your woo mind. Slavery requires you being forced to do something, which you are not.


Its not public its a private society.

Again, failure to understand basic political science 101 concepts. There is no such thing. We live in a world with a public and private sector.


Im afraid you dont.

"I know I am wrong but don't want to admit it so I will say things like this."


do you proofread what you say? If the governments hand writings is the same we always use, thats why people are making a distinction. People can exist without government.

Do you proofread what you believe before buying it whole sale? There is no distinction between your hand writing and "the governments hand writing" they are the same. The distinction only exists in mythology.



did you know statues and acts arent laws.

Wrong on both counts. Statutes and acts are both laws and have the full force of law. They have different names because they became law through different methods.

Statues are indeed not laws, they are figures made out of stone that we look at. This is in-depth legal knowledge folks, the Freeman woo we have here doesn't know the difference between statues and statutes.


It is important to realise that a statute in and of itself is not a law de jure but merely de facto. It is a legislated rule of a society which has been given the force of law, by consent of the governed.

You are using concepts you do not understand. Statutes are not laws de facto, they are laws - period. All laws are the legislated rule of society given the force of law by consent of the governed, including statutes.


NO CONSENT NO GOVERNANCE

YOU CAN VOTE YOU HAVE CONSENT, THUS YOU HAVE GOVERNMENT.


So you agree its a corp. sigh

Everyone knows its a corporation, but people in reality know there is nothing wrong with that. You are showing how little you know about the law by thinking there is something wrong with corporations and that we should all be shocked that the government is one.



They just want to be left alone. Stop the fighting.

Fine, get out of the country.



Solved Above, its the Woo imagination of the PROUD UNITED STATES CITIZEN, So Help Me God.

Sorry, only in your woo mind is citizen somehow fictitious.



that's dishonest stop bringing it back to debts, that's a small percentage of dishonest people, who don't know enough.

Actually its most of your woo movement.

[LightinDarkness]

the last 7 posts have been common dribble/non sense from so called skeptics. you guys are worse then your counterparts. grow up people.

Translation:

"I have no idea what I am talking about but Freeman woo makes me feel like I am smart. Anyone who debunks me must just not know the truth."

[Red3]

Wrong on both counts. Statutes and acts are both laws and have the full force of law. They have different names because they became law through different methods.
Different methods...

This is a good example of how the CT mind doesn't work. To believe in most things from 911 to reptilians, you have to go on the basic premise that there is (and always has been) a fixed elite that planned our entrapment etc. and control us through thier designed systems. If you don't believe this, you probably believe that no system is given birth to in a complete form; be it finance, law, whatever...Any system of organization or set of rules never stays how it begins. As with technology, things evolve, are adapted to fit the current society's needs. That's why CTrs find these tantalizing morsels of "evidence"; they're the old building blocks built into the modern structure. They begin to hammer the pieces togther where they don't fit because they don't have enough knowledge of a given subject and ignore anyone who does. Like the admiralty law issue; why should there not be an element of admiralty law in Britain's legal history? It's not evidence of enslavement, it's evidence of people adapting thier ideas for new purposes and situations.

Most systems in the modern world - whatever they may be - are cobbled together out of older imperfect/outdated ones, and do indeed contain things that came about by "different methods" and were thought up by different people.

Bluekush, how many years have you spent studying law?

[Bluekush623]

You can see by the ever more hysterical responses by bluekush that hes a typical follower of the Freeman moment: no facts, just wanting those secret "magic words" that "free" him from a legal system that doesn't have him chained. Typical rage against the machine nonsense - his other posts were all in praise of Zeitgeist propaganda, so you know what kind of CTer were working with here.

How are MY posts hysterical, your the people are talking about chemtrails in a political/law thread.

Guess what WORDS ARE MAGIC. We Spell em out. Language isnt normal, its a remarkable phenom that we somehow created. I have no rage against the machine, you keep spewing skeptic propaganda stop this. And my other posts were not praising the zeitgeist movement, its all about questioning the status que.

"There is no better slave then one who doesnt believe hes a slave."



Wrong. The court system doesn't care, nor does the law. You can call yourself Conspiracy Theorist Bluekush, of the Family of Woo, and you are still subject to all the laws of the land.

YES the courts do care whether or not your a citizen.

And I've already proven to you statutes and acts are not law of the land. Of course you still can't kill, steal, damage property being a while free from government representation, thats being dishonest again.



You have the right: move somewhere else. As long as you are here, you will contract with the government. By living here it is your agreement to contract with the government of the land.

LMAO you are WRONG. I was born here, this land is my land just like its your land. I can live free from government just as you can live with government. No one can claim anything in this free universe we have been given to live in.
If you really read history this land wasnt even ours 300 years ago so what now? Your just fooled into believing whats feed to you.


The whole "dishonor/honor" thing is freeman woo and doesn't matter in the real world. Freeman is entirely about getting out of debts you legitimately owe, like credit cards and mortgages, although I grant there are other parts that are just woo and have nothing to do with that.

Freeman is not entirely about getting out of debts. Your being dishonest. its also to prevent such contracts from existing for future generations and if able to get out of the game without dishonoring, you are able to do so. Being in debt is being trapped and shackled.


Parent's don't sign any government papers that put you under any sort of obligation.

Ok so our parents didn't sign our Social Security Cards and Birth Certificates into existence?



Wrong. Its called the social contract. By living here you subject yourself to the laws of the land. Don't like it? Fine, move somewhere else.

Thats propaganda, what about 300 yrs ago. Its only the "whitemans" word and you fall for it.



Everyone knows you don't HAVE to have a social security number, but by not having one because of Freeman woo you only harm yourself. There is nothing wrong with having one.

Ok so being a freeman isn't woo like you claim its FACT and achieveable.



Wrong. As you can tell by the hysterical language, this one is near the ledge. Elected representatives are elected to carry out your will - don't like it? Don't vote for them.

Damn man are you really unintelligent? Representative ARE MIDDLE MEN!
what don't you understand?

Just because others vote for someone doesn't mean hes in there for me especially if one announces they aren't in there "gang".



Sure, you don't have to be a citizen, and you also don't have a right to live here while I pay for the things you use.

Who says Americans have the right to live here anyways, we raped and pillaged this land from others. your being totally dishonest.

Living on the land and living in the make believe world of statutes and acts are separate anyways.



Only in your woo mind. Slavery requires you being forced to do something, which you are not.

Again if you cant disband its being forced on you aka SLAVERY.




Again, failure to understand basic political science 101 concepts. There is no such thing. We live in a world with a public and private sector.

Again you fail to understand to founding concept behind government.

Do you realize that government isn't a law of the universe and doesn't have to exist?



"I know I am wrong but don't want to admit it so I will say things like this."


yawn.


Do you proofread what you believe before buying it whole sale? There is no distinction between your hand writing and "the governments hand writing" they are the same. The distinction only exists in mythology.

This then is force if i cant wear a different color hat.


Wrong on both counts. Statutes and acts are both laws and have the full force of law. They have different names because they became law through different methods.

They have the force of law through CONSENT or being REPRESENTED aka having a middle man, just like Jesus is the middleman between you and heaven.


Statues are indeed not laws, they are figures made out of stone that we look at. This is in-depth legal knowledge folks, the Freeman woo we have here doesn't know the difference between statues and statutes.

Again criticize spelling instead of learning.


You are using concepts you do not understand. Statutes are not laws de facto, they are laws - period. All laws are the legislated rule of society given the force of law by consent of the governed, including statutes.


Do you know the difference between dejure and defacto? DUDE listen to your words. Just above you said they were stone cold laws but there are not.

There are de facto laws:

RULES OF SOCIETY GIVEN BY CONSENT, do you get that CONSENT. NO CONSENT NO REPRESENTATION.


YOU CAN VOTE YOU HAVE CONSENT, THUS YOU HAVE GOVERNMENT.


What happens when someone never votes or fills out gov paperwork and lives free from them. they sure dont fall under jurisdiction.


Everyone knows its a corporation, but people in reality know there is nothing wrong with that. You are showing how little you know about the law by thinking there is something wrong with corporations and that we should all be shocked that the government is one.


LOL gov being a corporation isnt a problem. you sir are not even worth debating with, go seek an education.



Fine, get out of the country.


How bout he government gets of our land.



Sorry, only in your woo mind is citizen somehow fictitious.


a citizen is a made up name aka woo.



Actually its most of your woo movement.
[/QUOTE]

Jref is a woo movement.

[Bluekush623]

Different methods...

This is a good example of how the CT mind doesn't work. To believe in most things from 911 to reptilians, you have to go on the basic premise that there is (and always has been) a fixed elite that planned our entrapment etc. and control us through thier designed systems. If you don't believe this, you probably believe that no system is given birth to in a complete form; be it finance, law, whatever...Any system of organization or set of rules never stays how it begins. As with technology, things evolve, are adapted to fit the current society's needs. That's why CTrs find these tantalizing morsels of "evidence"; they're the old building blocks built into the modern structure. They begin to hammer the pieces togther where they don't fit because they don't have enough knowledge of a given subject and ignore anyone who does. Like the admiralty law issue; why should there not be an element of admiralty law in Britain's legal history? It's not evidence of enslavement, it's evidence of people adapting thier ideas for new purposes and situations.

Most systems in the modern world - whatever they may be - are cobbled together out of older imperfect/outdated ones, and do indeed contain things that came about by "different methods" and were thought up by different people.

Bluekush, how many years have you spent studying law?


The problem with JREF and these so called freethinking skeptics, is your either a skeptic or woo. When both groups are being is dishonest. Its the same thing when people argue a God. Its either yes or no when the final answer is unknown.

How about instead of believing in the Power Elite, lets define it as the Ego of every living being. Some(Most) people seek there self interest(elite) and others dont. While some have alot more at stake then others. its always a mixed bag.

other then that i dont really know where your going with your blocked paragraph. I guess your saying this is life so live with it.

and ive been studying the "law" for about 2-3 years now.

[Red3]

The problem with JREF and these so called freethinking skeptics, is your either a skeptic or woo. When both groups are being is dishonest. Its the same thing when people argue a God. Its either yes or no when the final answer is unknown.

How about instead of believing in the Power Elite, lets define it as the Ego of every living being. Some(Most) people seek there self interest(elite) and others dont. While some have alot more at stake then others. its always a mixed bag.

other then that i dont really know where your going with your blocked paragraph. I guess your saying this is life so live with it.

and ive been studying the "law" for about 2-3 years now.

The point I was making was about how conspiracy theories or movements like the freeman one are created and the thought processes behind the reasons people go for them. To help me explain what I mean, tell me why being a freeman is a good thing? Or more to the point, why being a part of modern society and subject to its legal system is bad? Before you started pulling at certain threads of the legal system, you probably had some reason for doing so., which has dictated what parts of it you (and everyone else involved) have put together and formed your current theory of contractual slavery or whatever you would describe it as.

What I'm trying to point out is life is all about perceptions. Lets say you're right about this and the legal system sees people as commodities or whatever. Why does it matter? To what degree does all this affect your daily life as a human being with free will, contracted or not?

[Bluekush623]

The point I was making was about how conspiracy theories or movements like the freeman one are created and the thought processes behind the reasons people go for them. To help me explain what I mean, tell me why being a freeman is a good thing? Or more to the point, why being a part of modern society and subject to its legal system is bad? Before you started pulling at certain threads of the legal system, you probably had some reason for doing so., which has dictated what parts of it you (and everyone else involved) have put together and formed your current theory of contractual slavery or whatever you would describe it as.

Why? Well do you trust any politican? Really? Would you let them watch your kids, while your at work? I didnt think so.

So why let them run the world. Every week we have a new politician getting caught in some sex scandal aka lying, when they spew religious marital morals.

Then how about drugs? there illegal but throughout all of prohibition members of the law have been caught using/selling them.

The topics can go on and on.

It's all a game a game you dont have to play.

[LightinDarkness]

Different methods...

This is a good example of how the CT mind doesn't work. To believe in most things from 911 to reptilians, you have to go on the basic premise that there is (and always has been) a fixed elite that planned our entrapment etc. and control us through thier designed systems. If you don't believe this, you probably believe that no system is given birth to in a complete form; be it finance, law, whatever...Any system of organization or set of rules never stays how it begins. As with technology, things evolve, are adapted to fit the current society's needs. That's why CTrs find these tantalizing morsels of "evidence"; they're the old building blocks built into the modern structure. They begin to hammer the pieces togther where they don't fit because they don't have enough knowledge of a given subject and ignore anyone who does. Like the admiralty law issue; why should there not be an element of admiralty law in Britain's legal history? It's not evidence of enslavement, it's evidence of people adapting thier ideas for new purposes and situations.

Most systems in the modern world - whatever they may be - are cobbled together out of older imperfect/outdated ones, and do indeed contain things that came about by "different methods" and were thought up by different people.

Bluekush, how many years have you spent studying law?

I cannot agree enough with this - and you were able to express the CT mindset in a way that I think a lot of skeptics struggle with doing because we understand these basic realities about how society changes, and we forget sometimes that CTs do not/will not.

This is an absolutely excellent post. I wish we could nominate posts for some sort of Anti-STUNDIE around here, because if we could I'd nominate you :D

[LightinDarkness]

How are MY posts hysterical, your the people are talking about chemtrails in a political/law thread.

Sorry, step back from the bong...we're talking about Freeman woo in a Freeman woo thread. And your ever more irrational style of posting lends to your ever growing hysteria about this.


Guess what WORDS ARE MAGIC. We Spell em out. Language isnt normal, its a remarkable phenom that we somehow created. I have no rage against the machine, you keep spewing skeptic propaganda stop this. And my other posts were not praising the zeitgeist movement, its all about questioning the status que.

Only in your mythical reality are words equal to magic. As you demonstrate by your copious amount of responses which show all your sound and fury and signify absolutely nothing, words are just words. And yes, you are just a typical "rage against the machine" CTer - if you weren't, you wouldn't buy into something so obviously false as Freeman CT.


"There is no better slave then one who doesnt believe hes a slave."

I can use pointless quotes too:
"There is no person more paranoid than the one who proclaims his chains of slavery while speaking freely."


YES the courts do care whether or not your a citizen.

Actually, not in the way you claim. You act like there is some magical distinction of being a citizen that is bad and you can free yourself from it, which is woo. In reality, if you commit an illegal act you are subject to the law. Courts care if you are a citizen because that entitles you to certain things non-citizens do not have.


And I've already proven to you statutes and acts are not law of the land.

Um, no, you have not. You declaring that they are not law does not equal proof. It equals woo. Statues and acts are laws, period.


Of course you still can't kill, steal, damage property being a while free from government representation, thats being dishonest again.

And this is the basic inconsistency of the Freeman woo movement: you somehow magically are under enough protection of the evil gubment such that you can't do these things, but can beyond that pretty much do whatever you want.


LMAO you are WRONG. I was born here, this land is my land just like its your land. I can live free from government just as you can live with government. No one can claim anything in this free universe we have been given to live in.

WRONG! Its only your land if you agree to obey by the laws of the government. Don't like it? Move. You cannot live free from government while I have to sit back and pay for your silly delusions.


If you really read history this land wasnt even ours 300 years ago so what now? Your just fooled into believing whats feed to you.

More woo propaganda. Societies change, what a revelation.


Freeman is not entirely about getting out of debts. Your being dishonest. its also to prevent such contracts from existing for future generations and if able to get out of the game without dishonoring, you are able to do so. Being in debt is being trapped and shackled.

You continue to lie. As its now been said Freeman woo is not entirely about getting out of debt, as some of it is just woo - but its a major motivator. People want to get out of money they owe.

No one can "contract with future generations", and there is no "dishonoring", its all made up.

Being in debt is only trapped and shackled when you buy things you cannot afford. Here is a tip: Don't buy things you cannot afford.


Ok so our parents didn't sign our Social Security Cards and Birth Certificates into existence?

Nope. These documents are just that and exist whether or not anyone signs them - documents showing where you were born and that you are eligible for social security.



Thats propaganda, what about 300 yrs ago. Its only the "whitemans" word and you fall for it.

More pointless rambling that refuses to directly answer the debunking thats shown you to be a liar.


Ok so being a freeman isn't woo like you claim its FACT and achieveable.

No, it isn't. Its not real. You are free to move and go to another country, but unless you find a plot of land not owned by any sovereign country then you are subject to the law.


Damn man are you really unintelligent? Representative ARE MIDDLE MEN!
what don't you understand?

You've been debunked on this point, which went all the way back to your rambling about roads. The REPRESENTATIVE CARRIES OUT YOUR WILL which is why you PAY FOR THE ROADS through taxes.


Just because others vote for someone doesn't mean hes in there for me especially if one announces they aren't in there "gang".

Yes, he is. If you don't like it, vote for someone else.


Who says Americans have the right to live here anyways, we raped and pillaged this land from others. your being totally dishonest.

Your being a liar again with this whole "dishonesty" thing that your making up. Wars occur, societies change. The current sovereign government is the one you are subject to.


Living on the land and living in the make believe world of statutes and acts are separate anyways.

Freeman is woo, statutes and acts are laws.


Again if you cant disband its being forced on you aka SLAVERY.

Again if you choose to live in the country then its NOT SLAVERY.


Again you fail to understand to founding concept behind government.

Yes, you do.


Do you realize that government isn't a law of the universe and doesn't have to exist?

There is not "law of the universe" - thats Zeitgeist propaganda.




yawn.

Translation: "I have been debunked and have no rational response."


They have the force of law through CONSENT or being REPRESENTED aka having a middle man, just like Jesus is the middleman between you and heaven.

And guess what YOU ELECTED THEM so they have the CONSENT.



Again criticize spelling instead of learning.

Well since you have yet to put out a single legal concept yet that is valid, we don't have much to talk about.



Do you know the difference between dejure and defacto? DUDE listen to your words. Just above you said they were stone cold laws but there are not.

Yes I do, and you do not know the meaning of them apparently


There are de facto laws:

RULES OF SOCIETY GIVEN BY CONSENT, do you get that CONSENT. NO CONSENT NO REPRESENTATION.

Wrong, these are just laws. And we have consent.



What happens when someone never votes or fills out gov paperwork and lives free from them. they sure dont fall under jurisdiction.

Filling out paperwork has no relationship to you being subject to the sovereign nation's laws. You are subject to them if you live in the country. That is the jurisdiction.



LOL gov being a corporation isnt a problem. you sir are not even worth debating with, go seek an education.

I see you keep repeating this woo line that OMG GOVERNMENT IS A CORPORATION LETS ALL ACT HYSTERICAL. Now please tell me WHY this is a bad thing. We're still waiting.


How bout he government gets of our land.

How about you learn that the government isn't in your land?




a citizen is a made up name aka woo.


Only in your woo imagination.


Jref is a woo movement.

I guess to someone who believes in fictional concepts like Freeman on the Land, any place where people think critically is woo, eh?

[JimBenArm]

How are MY posts hysterical, your the people are talking about chemtrails in a political/law thread.

Your posts are hysterical because they contain no actual facts, and sound like they were made by a 12-year-old trying to act like an adult.

Guess what WORDS ARE MAGIC.

So Harry Potter is a documentary? Cool!

We Spell em out.

Well, you're trying to. Not having a lot of success at it, but practice makes perfect! Keep at it, and someday you'll be able to spell. Maybe even get that whole punctuation/capitalization thing down, too.

Language isnt normal, its a remarkable phenom that we somehow created.

Well, your language isn't normal...

I have no rage against the machine, you keep spewing skeptic propaganda stop this. And my other posts were not praising the zeitgeist movement, its all about questioning the status que.

Anyone have a gibberish/English translator handy?

"There is no better slave then one who doesnt believe hes a slave."

There's no one so pathetic as someone who's not a slave, and thinks he is. Hey, I just made that up! I'm so clever!


YES the courts do care whether or not your a citizen.

Why? If you break a law, you're going to jail. Doesn't matter if you're a citizen of this country, or of Mars. Sorry, you lose. But then, you're used to that by now, aren't you?

And I've already proven to you statutes and acts are not law of the land.

Of course statues aren't laws, silly. They're just art that just stands there.

Oh, you said "statutes". Hmm. Maybe you should invest in a thesaurus, and look that word up. Don't think you really know what it means.

Of course you still can't kill, steal, damage property being a while free from government representation, thats being dishonest again.

Stealing and killing is dishonest? Who knew?

LMAO you are WRONG. I was born here, this land is my land just like its your land.

Everybody sing!
"This land is your land!
This land is my land!"

I can live free from government just as you can live with government.

Can I live with your sister instead? She's pretty hot!

No one can claim anything in this free universe we have been given to live in.

Oh, yeah? Try to touch my record albums. MINE! Not yours!

If you really read history this land wasnt even ours 300 years ago so what now? Your just fooled into believing whats feed to you.

So, have you actually read any history? Somehow, I doubt it. Most likely, just some crap you read on CT websites. Don't know why I think that...

Freeman is not entirely about getting out of debts. Your being dishonest. its also to prevent such contracts from existing for future generations and if able to get out of the game without dishonoring, you are able to do so. Being in debt is being trapped and shackled.

Ah, so it's SOMEWHAT about getting out of debts. In other words, getting something and then not having to pay for it. And after all that talk about honor. Maybe you should hurry on getting that thesaurus. Honor means something you obviously don't understand.

Ok so our parents didn't sign our Social Security Cards and Birth Certificates into existence?

I have my social security card. I got it all on my own. My mother drove me to the SS office, because I wasn't old enough to drive, but it has my signature on it. She also didn't sign my birth certificate. Neither did my father. Guess I don't exist. Hey, maybe these are those magic words you were talking about!

Thats propaganda, what about 300 yrs ago. Its only the "whitemans" word and you fall for it.

I think you confused "whiteman" and Whitman. As in Walt. He was a poet. He had lots of nice words, and lots of people fell for them.

Ok so being a freeman isn't woo like you claim its FACT and achieveable.

Nope. It's woo. Sorry. You lose.


Damn man are you really unintelligent? Representative ARE MIDDLE MEN!
what don't you understand?


Yeah, I's jest a stoopid bedunker. I kant speel or use english goodly like them thar freemans peeps. theys some sooper smatr folks thar.

Just because others vote for someone doesn't mean hes in there for me especially if one announces they aren't in there "gang".
Don't worry. I'm not in a gang, and I know you didn't vote for me, but I'll always be here for you. We'll always have Paris!

Who says Americans have the right to live here anyways, we raped and pillaged this land from others. your being totally dishonest.

Well, we have the big boom-booms that say we can. You want to take it from us? Get bigger boom-booms than we have. Otherwise, it's ours. Too bad, so sad. You lose, yet again! Dang, you're pretty bad at this, aren't you?

Living on the land and living in the make believe world of statutes and acts are separate anyways.

So, go ahead and violate some statutes. Call attention to yourself doing it. Please, let me know ahead of time, so I can be there with a camera. I like to film people doing stupid things.

Again if you cant disband its being forced on you aka SLAVERY.

Again, you need to get that thesaurus. Really, you do.

Again you fail to understand to founding concept behind government.

Ah, but we have you to give us the truth! How lucky we are!

Do you realize that government isn't a law of the universe and doesn't have to exist?

"You are a fluke of the universe.
You have no right to be here.
And whether you can hear it or not,
The universe is laughing behind your back."

Yeah, I remember National Lampoon, too.

yawn.

Naptime already? Want your binky and bottle, too?

This then is force if i cant wear a different color hat.

I call dibs on the white one!

They have the force of law through CONSENT or being REPRESENTED aka having a middle man, just like Jesus is the middleman between you and heaven.

Jesus is between me and heaven? Well, tell him to move, dang it! I can't see the TV around his fat butt!

Again criticize spelling instead of learning.

Sorry, but correct spelling, punctuation and grammar are indicative of learning. People who cannot use them show themselves to be ignorant. Usually willfully so, on this forum.

Do you know the difference between dejure and defacto? DUDE listen to your words. Just above you said they were stone cold laws but there are not.

Hey, more gibberish! Yay!


There are de facto laws:

RULES OF SOCIETY GIVEN BY CONSENT, do you get that CONSENT. NO CONSENT NO REPRESENTATION.


So if I don't consent to you holding my hand, I don't get represented? Man, that sucks! Good thing I like it!

What happens when someone never votes or fills out gov paperwork and lives free from them. they sure dont fall under jurisdiction.

Well, that worked so well for the idiot I was on the jury for. Yeah. Go ahead and do that, okay? Let us know how it works out for you!

LOL gov being a corporation isnt a problem. you sir are not even worth debating with, go seek an education.

I'd tell you to seek one, however, I think it failed the first go around, so let's not waste more time and energy. It wouldn't help you, anyway.

How bout he government gets of our land.

a citizen is a made up name aka woo.


Yay! More gibberish!


Jref is a woo movement.

And you are a national treasure!

[Red3]

Why? Well do you trust any politican? Really? Would you let them watch your kids, while your at work? I didnt think so.

So why let them run the world. Every week we have a new politician getting caught in some sex scandal aka lying, when they spew religious marital morals.

Then how about drugs? there illegal but throughout all of prohibition members of the law have been caught using/selling them.

The topics can go on and on.

It's all a game a game you dont have to play.

So basically you hate the corruption? Fair enough, so do I, but destroying the apple cart, fruitshop and orchard to get rid of the spoiled ones is a bit severe...Perhaps concentrating on getting people more interested in politics in general would be more beneficial, trying to make workable changes. If the freeman movement had its way, we'd be in total anarchy in weeks. If the system was as corrupt and self serving as you make it sound, it'd have been a victim of its own Enron-esque success a along time ago.

I cannot agree enough with this - and you were able to express the CT mindset in a way that I think a lot of skeptics struggle with doing because we understand these basic realities about how society changes, and we forget sometimes that CTs do not/will not.

This is an absolutely excellent post. I wish we could nominate posts for some sort of Anti-STUNDIE around here, because if we could I'd nominate you

Thanks :eye-poppi i'm glad it made sense to someone!

[LightinDarkness]

and ive been studying the "law" for about 2-3 years now.

Watching freeman youtube videos does not equal studying the law.

Please list what law school classes you have attended or degrees obtained, or what court cases you have won using Freeman woo.

[LightinDarkness]

Thanks :eye-poppi i'm glad it made sense to someone!

I think it shows even more how CTers cannot grasp these fundamental facts by the Freeman wooists response to your post on this. For him, he cannot understand that - yes, Virginia, statutes and acts are the same thing, they just happen to come into law through different methods. He cannot grasp that it is natural and not a conspiracy that this could be the case.

[LightinDarkness]

It's all a game a game you dont have to play.

Full stop, this is the essence of the Freeman woo movement.

Because the government really sets up all these lengthy and complex systems to enslave everyone and bend them to the elite's will, yet conveniently leave endless morsels of evidence to show you the secret magic words to make the law's of a sovereign country not apply to you.

I tell you what, the elite sure are stupid.

[Bluekush623]

Sorry, step back from the bong...we're talking about Freeman woo in a Freeman woo thread. And your ever more irrational style of posting lends to your ever growing hysteria about this.



Only in your mythical reality are words equal to magic. As you demonstrate by your copious amount of responses which show all your sound and fury and signify absolutely nothing, words are just words. And yes, you are just a typical "rage against the machine" CTer - if you weren't, you wouldn't buy into something so obviously false as Freeman CT.



I can use pointless quotes too:
"There is no person more paranoid than the one who proclaims his chains of slavery while speaking freely."



Actually, not in the way you claim. You act like there is some magical distinction of being a citizen that is bad and you can free yourself from it, which is woo. In reality, if you commit an illegal act you are subject to the law. Courts care if you are a citizen because that entitles you to certain things non-citizens do not have.



Um, no, you have not. You declaring that they are not law does not equal proof. It equals woo. Statues and acts are laws, period.



And this is the basic inconsistency of the Freeman woo movement: you somehow magically are under enough protection of the evil gubment such that you can't do these things, but can beyond that pretty much do whatever you want.



WRONG! Its only your land if you agree to obey by the laws of the government. Don't like it? Move. You cannot live free from government while I have to sit back and pay for your silly delusions.



More woo propaganda. Societies change, what a revelation.



You continue to lie. As its now been said Freeman woo is not entirely about getting out of debt, as some of it is just woo - but its a major motivator. People want to get out of money they owe.

No one can "contract with future generations", and there is no "dishonoring", its all made up.

Being in debt is only trapped and shackled when you buy things you cannot afford. Here is a tip: Don't buy things you cannot afford.



Nope. These documents are just that and exist whether or not anyone signs them - documents showing where you were born and that you are eligible for social security.




More pointless rambling that refuses to directly answer the debunking thats shown you to be a liar.



No, it isn't. Its not real. You are free to move and go to another country, but unless you find a plot of land not owned by any sovereign country then you are subject to the law.



You've been debunked on this point, which went all the way back to your rambling about roads. The REPRESENTATIVE CARRIES OUT YOUR WILL which is why you PAY FOR THE ROADS through taxes.



Yes, he is. If you don't like it, vote for someone else.



Your being a liar again with this whole "dishonesty" thing that your making up. Wars occur, societies change. The current sovereign government is the one you are subject to.



Freeman is woo, statutes and acts are laws.



Again if you choose to live in the country then its NOT SLAVERY.



Yes, you do.



There is not "law of the universe" - thats Zeitgeist propaganda.





Translation: "I have been debunked and have no rational response."



And guess what YOU ELECTED THEM so they have the CONSENT.




Well since you have yet to put out a single legal concept yet that is valid, we don't have much to talk about.




Yes I do, and you do not know the meaning of them apparently



Wrong, these are just laws. And we have consent.




Filling out paperwork has no relationship to you being subject to the sovereign nation's laws. You are subject to them if you live in the country. That is the jurisdiction.




I see you keep repeating this woo line that OMG GOVERNMENT IS A CORPORATION LETS ALL ACT HYSTERICAL. Now please tell me WHY this is a bad thing. We're still waiting.



How about you learn that the government isn't in your land?





Only in your woo imagination.



I guess to someone who believes in fictional concepts like Freeman on the Land, any place where people think critically is woo, eh?

Light you most be like 17? Go read, well verse yourself on this topic then comeback when you realize that anyone can deny consent to be governed by statutes and acts. as they are de facto, which means given the "rule" not law by society only by consent. Consent means agreement not just living on land that would be Coercion.

Im done going back and fourth with you as you wont change your deluded views on life.

Go spend some time at the court house and see how many conspiracies come up in a week or maybe even a day, you may be surprised.

[Bluekush623]

Full stop, this is the essence of the Freeman woo movement.

Because the government really sets up all these lengthy and complex systems to enslave everyone and bend them to the elite's will, yet conveniently leave endless morsels of evidence to show you the secret magic words to make the law's of a sovereign country not apply to you.

I tell you what, the elite sure are stupid.

No they set up this lengthy systems for there own personal advantage.Whatever its for.

I defined government as a group of people with a COMMON GOAL. and this is EXACTLY what it is.

Elite = Ego

Get over yours.

[Checkmite]

And I've already proven to you statutes and acts are not law of the land.

Statutes and acts are certain types of laws. You must obey them. Other individuals who are "free of government representation", typically known as aliens (illegal or otherwise), are still bound to obey the statutes and acts so long as those individuals take up any kind of physical space within the area covered by the statute or act. Your not having a social security number or legal status with the government does not matter in this regard, with the sole exception being that in addition to other penalties you may also be subject to deportation should you fail, or deliberately chose not to obey the law.


Of course you still can't kill, steal, damage property being a while free from government representation, thats being dishonest again.

You cannot do anything a person who is not "free from government representation" cannot do.

LMAO you are WRONG. I was born here, this land is my land just like its your land. I can live free from government just as you can live with government. No one can claim anything in this free universe we have been given to live in.

You are living in a fantasy world. The land you were "born on" is regulated and governed. It has been since before you ever showed up. You can chose to exercise your rightful voice and take part in that regulation and governance, or you can choose to willfully seperate yourself from it; but if you think that choosing not to participate in that regulation and governance means you are free to act as you choose on the land they govern, you are pathetically mistaken.

If you really read history this land wasnt even ours 300 years ago so what now? Your just fooled into believing whats feed to you.

We're not living 300 years ago. Neither I nor you were born 300 years ago. We live in the here and now, and in the here and now there is an existing governmental infrastructure, and laws that you are required to obey so long as you live on the governed territory.

Freeman is not entirely about getting out of debts. Your being dishonest. its also to prevent such contracts from existing for future generations and if able to get out of the game without dishonoring, you are able to do so. Being in debt is being trapped and shackled.

He's not being dishonest, and you can try to obfuscate all you want; I'm betting you've chosen some arbitrary meaning for "dishonoring" your debt that is contrary to the popular conception. If you don't want to "dishonor" a debt, then you need to pay your creditors back every cent owed, unless they feely, knowingly, and specifically agree to a lesser amount. Trying to use some combination of imaginary legal escape clauses and magic words in order to escape a debt is pretty much the very definition of bad faith and is therefore nothing but dishonoring the debt. It is by all means what the "freeman" movement is based on - from the simple act of writing "paid in full" on a $10 check paid on a $1000 debt in the hopes the creditors will cash it and allow you to pull a "legal gotcha", to the most complex schemes of the movement.

Damn man are you really unintelligent? Representative ARE MIDDLE MEN!
what don't you understand?

Middle men between you and whom?

Just because others vote for someone doesn't mean hes in there for me especially if one announces they aren't in there "gang".

That's true; the person who represents you as a constituent may not necessarily be there at your pleasure (for instance, if you voted against him or didn't vote at all). But his decisions impact your existence, and covering your ears while screaming "LALALA, I'm not playing with you guys anymore!" does not change that fact. You will continue to be subject to any laws (including those dreadful statutes and acts) that he contributes to passing.


Who says Americans have the right to live here anyways, we raped and pillaged this land from others. your being totally dishonest.

What is this "we"? I wasn't alive during any raping and pillaging. When I was alive, the land I was born on was owned without dispute.

Living on the land and living in the make believe world of statutes and acts are separate anyways.

Feel free to ignore the "make believe" statutes and acts if you will. With such an active imagination, you should be able to ignore the "make believe" bars in the "make believe" prison that the "make believe" judge sentences you to for violating his "make believe" statutes and acts. Just close your eyes and cover your ears, and count to ten - maybe they'll all go away.

Again you fail to understand to founding concept behind government.

Do you realize that government isn't a law of the universe and doesn't have to exist?

It doesn't HAVE TO, no - but it does, whether you like it or not.

They have the force of law through CONSENT or being REPRESENTED aka having a middle man, just like Jesus is the middleman between you and heaven.

So your congressman is a middle man between you and...whom?

What happens when someone never votes or fills out gov paperwork and lives free from them. they sure dont fall under jurisdiction.

Yes they do. If you have never filled out a single piece of government paperwork, and you break a law, you will be penalized in the same way that someone who's spent their entire life filling out government paperwork is penalized.

LOL gov being a corporation isnt a problem. you sir are not even worth debating with, go seek an education.

So "LOL" is considered a compelling argument where you're from. Noted.


How bout he government gets of our land.

I don't believe it's "our" land. I believe it's MY land, and you have no right to it whatsoever. In fact, I want you off of it right now.

Oh dear - we have a problem, don't we? How are we going to solve it? Let me guess - a sword duel? Fifty paces at sunset? Shoot it out, like some kind of bad Bonanza episode?

[Cl1mh4224rd]

So... renounce your U.S. citizenship and become a citizen of a country that better suits you (Just like schools, religion, car dealerships, etc.). You're very much free to do that.
the last 7 posts have been common dribble/non sense from so called skeptics. you guys are worse then your counterparts. grow up people.


What was wrong with my suggestion? Also, who are these "counterparts" you refer to?

[LightinDarkness]

No they set up this lengthy systems for there own personal advantage.Whatever its for.

Wait, so now the evil gubment and elite have set up this lengthy and complex system to enslave you because for some people thats to their advantage? So only the enlightened beings like yourself who find the magic words can get out of this, but if your in it thats OK because enslavement is good for you.

This keeps getting more lunatic fringe than it already is with your every reply.


I defined government as a group of people with a COMMON GOAL. and this is EXACTLY what it is.

Wrong. You've now failed political science 101 at least 5 times. A government is a social institution that has legitimate use of authority.


Elite = Ego

Get over yours.

I think yours is the biggest ego we've seen so far.

By the way, there are no mythical "elite" - its a CT imagination based in hysterical us vs. them populism.

[LightinDarkness]

Light you most be like 17? Go read, well verse yourself on this topic then comeback when you realize that anyone can deny consent to be governed by statutes and acts. as they are de facto, which means given the "rule" not law by society only by consent. Consent means agreement not just living on land that would be Coercion.

Im done going back and fourth with you as you wont change your deluded views on life.

Go spend some time at the court house and see how many conspiracies come up in a week or maybe even a day, you may be surprised.

By the continued growing hysteria and throwing of personal insults by Bluekush we can be sure that he really is flailing about here.

Yes, you can deny your consent to be governed by getting out of the country. Not by using magic legal words that don't exist. No, there is no coercion - no one forces you to live on the land. If you decide to, and its in a government territory, then you are subject to the laws.

Your delusions will not be made real no matter how many times you repeat them.

[Cl1mh4224rd]

Wait, so now the evil gubment and elite have set up this lengthy and complex system to enslave you because for some people thats to their advantage? So only the enlightened beings like yourself who find the magic words can get out of this, but if your in it thats OK because enslavement is good for you.


I think he means that the lengthy and complex system was set up by the "elites" for the personal advantage of those "elites". He doesn't really know, though, or care. He just believes "the system" is bad and is trying to give some weak and vague rationalization so he can continue with his delusion with a minimum of thought.

[Pantaz]

Why? Well do you trust any politican? Really? Would you let them watch your kids, while your at work? I didnt think so.


You are wrong.

Most politicians, as with people in general, are basically trustworthy. If anything, for the particular circumstance of "watching your kids while you're at work", a politician would be extra careful -- just imagine the backlash if the kids were mistreated while under his/her care! That would pretty quickly be an ex-politician!

Why does the label "politician" make you so afraid?

[sleahead]

Back in post #2, there is a link to a thread in the David Icke forum. The post there mentions that a David Wynn Miller is assisting in helping the imprisoned individual. I recognise that name; he was running a variant of the FOTL scam years ago. Bluekush would do well to have a read of the e-mails from a Dr Carlson and others at this site (http://hiwaay.net/~becraft/Scams.htm)(scroll down past his wife's e-mail) and see what trouble believing this sort of cyber guff can get you into.

[Alferd_Packer]

- The woos who follow this believe that the way their names appear gives courts power over them. Woos who get hauled into court and use FOTL never answer to "Mr./Mrs. Lastname", but only to something like "The man known as FirstName of the family of LastName."

So The Artist Formerly Known as Prince, but Now Known as Prince Again is a woo merchant?

That would explain a lot.

[patchbunny]

Back in post #2, there is a link to a thread in the David Icke forum. The post there mentions that a David Wynn Miller is assisting in helping the imprisoned individual. I recognise that name; he was running a variant of the FOTL scam years ago. Bluekush would do well to have a read of the e-mails from a Dr Carlson and others at this site (http://hiwaay.net/~becraft/Scams.htm)(scroll down past his wife's e-mail) and see what trouble believing this sort of cyber guff can get you into.

That entire section of the forum is comedy gold. "Hey, did you know you can simply write a letter to your auto dealership, tell them you're not paying off that car loan as it's not a valid contract, and they can't do anything?".

[Bluekush623]

Id appreciate if you would start your own conversation instead of jumping in Light and I's discussion. it only creates confusion as who has what point of view.

Statutes and acts are certain types of laws. You must obey them. Other individuals who are "free of government representation", typically known as aliens (illegal or otherwise), are still bound to obey the statutes and acts so long as those individuals take up any kind of physical space within the area covered by the statute or act. Your not having a social security number or legal status with the government does not matter in this regard, with the sole exception being that in addition to other penalties you may also be subject to deportation should you fail, or deliberately chose not to obey the law.


Correct they are CERTAIN types of RULES not laws.

No they are aliens because they belong to ANOTHER government(society). Every land mass has been claimed by some society it doesnt mean everyone else has to hit the highway. But your definition freeman should be kicked off earth.

What would we call real aliens then? would they be subject to our statutes and acts? No they wouldnt unless they agreed to it.

You all seem to fail to understand Statutes and Acts are not LAWS they are rules.


You cannot do anything a person who is not "free from government representation" cannot do.


You can keep thinking that.


You are living in a fantasy world. The land you were "born on" is regulated and governed. It has been since before you ever showed up. You can chose to exercise your rightful voice and take part in that regulation and governance, or you can choose to willfully seperate yourself from it; but if you think that choosing not to participate in that regulation and governance means you are free to act as you choose on the land they govern, you are pathetically mistaken.

No you are tricked by their sleight of hand.



We're not living 300 years ago. Neither I nor you were born 300 years ago. We live in the here and now, and in the here and now there is an existing governmental infrastructure, and laws that you are required to obey so long as you live on the governed territory.

What laws, statutes and acts are rules given authority by society aka a group of people.



He's not being dishonest, and you can try to obfuscate all you want; I'm betting you've chosen some arbitrary meaning for "dishonoring" your debt that is contrary to the popular conception. If you don't want to "dishonor" a debt, then you need to pay your creditors back every cent owed, unless they feely, knowingly, and specifically agree to a lesser amount. Trying to use some combination of imaginary legal escape clauses and magic words in order to escape a debt is pretty much the very definition of bad faith and is therefore nothing but dishonoring the debt. It is by all means what the "freeman" movement is based on - from the simple act of writing "paid in full" on a $10 check paid on a $1000 debt in the hopes the creditors will cash it and allow you to pull a "legal gotcha", to the most complex schemes of the movement.

Dishonor means not fulfilling your obligation.

All you skeptics are being dishonest calling being a freeman mostly to get out of debts.

People who try and break their obligations are just as worse as the people who placed the risk in front of them.



Middle men between you and whom?


And whoever they contract with.


That's true; the person who represents you as a constituent may not necessarily be there at your pleasure (for instance, if you voted against him or didn't vote at all). But his decisions impact your existence, and covering your ears while screaming "LALALA, I'm not playing with you guys anymore!" does not change that fact. You will continue to be subject to any laws (including those dreadful statutes and acts) that he contributes to passing.


Yes democracy is MOB rule, but what happens when your not apart of the mob.

Cmon skeptics you can think outside the box, i know you can do it.



What is this "we"? I wasn't alive during any raping and pillaging. When I was alive, the land I was born on was owned without dispute.

But you accept it by going along with the current structure.

And you think the natives still aren't disputing what the whites did to them? or Blacks?


Feel free to ignore the "make believe" statutes and acts if you will. With such an active imagination, you should be able to ignore the "make believe" bars in the "make believe" prison that the "make believe" judge sentences you to for violating his "make believe" statutes and acts. Just close your eyes and cover your ears, and count to ten - maybe they'll all go away.


Actually Steel Bars are real not like the rules kids make when they play hide and go seek(statutes and acts).

You try and talk down on me but you prove your weakness.


It doesn't HAVE TO, no - but it does, whether you like it or not.


And anyone can exist without them.


So your congressman is a middle man between you and...whom?


Whoever they contract with.

Government is your friend who goes and gets your drugs aka middleman.


Yes they do. If you have never filled out a single piece of government paperwork, and you break a law, you will be penalized in the same way that someone who's spent their entire life filling out government paperwork is penalized.

Statutes and Acts ARE NOT LAWS, they are RULES OF SOCIETY.



So "LOL" is considered a compelling argument where you're from. Noted.


its an expression, mr. know it all



I don't believe it's "our" land. I believe it's MY land, and you have no right to it whatsoever. In fact, I want you off of it right now.

If its your land then its my land you self righteous egotistical child.


Oh dear - we have a problem, don't we? How are we going to solve it? Let me guess - a sword duel? Fifty paces at sunset? Shoot it out, like some kind of bad Bonanza episode?

Leave me alone and i leave you alone. its simple.

[Bluekush623]

what was wrong with my suggestion? Also, who are these "counterparts" you refer to?

why does anyone need a government?

Think outside the box.

Skeptics = woos/ truthers

[Red3]

Leave me alone and i leave you alone. its simple.

I think if history has taught us anything it's that never, never, ever works!

Big man wants something from small man, small man says no, big man kills him with a rock.

why does anyone need a government?

See point above.

[Bluekush623]

By the continued growing hysteria and throwing of personal insults by Bluekush we can be sure that he really is flailing about here.

Yes, you can deny your consent to be governed by getting out of the country. Not by using magic legal words that don't exist. No, there is no coercion - no one forces you to live on the land. If you decide to, and its in a government territory, then you are subject to the laws.

Your delusions will not be made real no matter how many times you repeat them.

Dude you are truthfully dumb. I didnt throw out any insults, i asked you a question be offended if you want, but your creating the insult by taking it personal.

Why should anyone have to move because a fictious entity exists who try's and claim authority. If you moved anywhere else another government try and have you become a citizen. Why cant humans live free from government?

People dont have to leave the land they were born on because they dont like a certain society.

Government is your delusion, fool. Evolve you monkey.

[Bluekush623]

I think if history has taught us anything it's that never, never, ever works!

Big man wants something from small man, small man says no, big man kills him with a rock.


Ok so you skeptics are to scared to say no too the bully, i get it now. Return too your caves.

[Cl1mh4224rd]

Id appreciate if you would start your own conversation instead of jumping in Light and I's discussion.


Public forum. You might want to understand what that means before engaging in a discussion on one.

why does anyone need a government?


Ah-ha! Anarchy!

What would you do about roads? Education? Public libraries? Importation of goods? Protection? Justice? Hell, defense against aggressive countries?

Skeptics = woos/ truthers


I think you need to look up the definition of the word "counterpart". It doesn't mean what you apparently think it means.

[LightinDarkness]

Dude you are truthfully dumb. I didnt throw out any insults, i asked you a question be offended if you want, but your creating the insult by taking it personal.

The more you throw out insults, the more it shows you have no clue what you are talking about.


Why should anyone have to move because a fictious entity exists who try's and claim authority. If you moved anywhere else another government try and have you become a citizen. Why cant humans live free from government?

That would be because its not a fictitious entity, its quite real. They don't CLAIM authority, they have authority. Yes, if you move to another country you will have to be a citizen or legal alien. Neither status means what you woos think it means.

You are free to live free from government if you want - go find a patch of land that doesn't have a sovereign country on it. You won't go there because you want all the benefits of government without paying for it.


People dont have to leave the land they were born on because they dont like a certain society.

Correct. But they do have to leave if they refuse to subject themselves to the laws of the land. That, or go to jail. Your choice.


Government is your delusion, fool. Evolve you monkey.

More insults and more showing you have no idea what you are talking about. The only thing delusional is your grasp on the law.

[Bluekush623]

Public forum. You might want to understand what that means before engaging in a discussion on one.

I know what it is But do you randomly jump into conversations at bars?




Ah-ha! Anarchy!

What would you do about roads? Education? Public libraries? Importation of goods? Protection? Justice? Hell, defense against aggressive countries?

I said why does anyone need government?

NOT that Government doesnt have to exist.

Government gets work done just like Hitler and Bush.

Your a fool to your own delusion.



I think you need to look up the definition of the word "counterpart". It doesn't mean what you apparently think it means.

Skeptics & Woos make the world go round.

[LightinDarkness]

It doesn't mean what you apparently think it means.

He does that a lot. You see, with his Freeman woo he can randomly tell us what words REALLY MEAN and just makes it up as he goes along.

[LightinDarkness]

Back in post #2, there is a link to a thread in the David Icke forum. The post there mentions that a David Wynn Miller is assisting in helping the imprisoned individual. I recognise that name; he was running a variant of the FOTL scam years ago. Bluekush would do well to have a read of the e-mails from a Dr Carlson and others at this site (http://hiwaay.net/~becraft/Scams.htm)(scroll down past his wife's e-mail) and see what trouble believing this sort of cyber guff can get you into.

I would encourage our Freeman woo to read this site, among other gems:


At my hearing for arraignment and plea February 17, 1998, I used the "flag" issue and the approach that I would not join with the court pursuant to F.R.Civ.P. 12(b)(7). That day I left court having not joined with the court. However, the following day I was arrested by U. S. Marshals and incarcerated at Halawa State Prison with the presumed threat that I would be held as a threat to the state if I did not submit to the court's jurisdiction.

You see, in woo land you can follow these made up claims (like the admiralty law flag) and refuse to approach the bench under the woo idea that this means something significant. However, in reality when you do this you are still charged with a crime and if you refuse to cooperate you will be punished accordingly.

Reality is why Freeman woo never works.

[Bluekush623]

The more you throw out insults, the more it shows you have no clue what you are talking about.



That would be because its not a fictitious entity, its quite real. They don't CLAIM authority, they have authority. Yes, if you move to another country you will have to be a citizen or legal alien. Neither status means what you woos think it means.

You are free to live free from government if you want - go find a patch of land that doesn't have a sovereign country on it. You won't go there because you want all the benefits of government without paying for it.



Correct. But they do have to leave if they refuse to subject themselves to the laws of the land. That, or go to jail. Your choice.



More insults and more showing you have no idea what you are talking about. The only thing delusional is your grasp on the law.

Light you believe in Government how religious People believe in God. Which means this debate will go no where.

And me calling you a dummy is found in evidence and proof.

just like you said government isnt a middleman but yet you said government is someone who represents you. THATS A MIDDLEMAN. you have very low comprehension skills.

This by fact shows a hole in your intelligence. or whatever you would like to call it.

[Red3]

Ok so you skeptics are to scared to say no too the bully, i get it now. Return too your caves.

I don't think you've got a very realistic view of the world you live in.

Explain again why we should even care about the freeman movement even if it is what you think it is?

[Cl1mh4224rd]

I know what it is But do you randomly jump into conversations at bars?


I only go to bars with friends, so there's no personal need to jump in on someone else's conversation. However, it does happen; fairly often. Of course, that's a completely different social environment. It's a shame you don't quite get that.

I said why does anyone need government?

NOT that Government doesnt have to exist.


If no one needs government, then why should government exist?

Government gets work done [...]


Then you admit that government is needed, but you don't believe that it is needed by anyone?

How exactly does that work? What work do they do that is necessary and yet unnecessary?

[JimBenArm]

Reality is why Freeman woo never works.
But... but...

It's the law of the land! Of. The. Land! Reality has to bend to my will, and the Law of the Land! Because I said so! Really! Get your hands off me! You're just a middleman! You're not the boss of me!

[Bluekush623]

I would encourage our Freeman woo to read this site, among other gems:



You see, in woo land you can follow these made up claims (like the admiralty law flag) and refuse to approach the bench under the woo idea that this means something significant. However, in reality when you do this you are still charged with a crime and if you refuse to cooperate you will be punished accordingly.

Reality is why Freeman woo never works.

No your just afraid of the bully and truth. You are taking being a FREE MAN and claiming it to be something it isnt, or using someones deluded version to prove your point.

BEING FREE MEANS STANDING ALONE.
BEING A MAN IS SOMETHING WE CALL OUR SPECIES OF CREATURE WITH LIFE.

ANYONE CAN EXIST WITH OR WITHOUT GOVERNMENT JUST LIKE THEY CAN BELIEVE IN UNDERWEAR GNOMES.

[JimBenArm]

You've got gnomes in your underwear?

That explains a lot...

[Bluekush623]

I don't think you've got a very realistic view of the world you live in.

Explain again why we should even care about the freeman movement even if it is what you think it is?

Because we have given our power of life and liberty to people who use and abuse there power for there own personal interest.

If you dont get this you gotta be really white.

[LightinDarkness]

Light you believe in Government how religious People believe in God. Which means this debate will go no where.

Actually your denial of a quite real institution lends credence that you are mentally ill. I want you to go rob a store - make sure you don't shot anyone, as I don't want anyone hurt to demonstrate your stupidity. Now, when you walk out with the stolen goods, call the police and tell them you stole some stuff from XYZ store but the government is not real so they can't do anything about it.

Report back what happens when you get out of that fake jail for your fake prison sentence for stealing.


And me calling you a dummy is found in evidence and proof.

Hes getting more delusional. The only one insulting people around here is you, and it is evidence and proof of your hysteria.


just like you said government isnt a middleman but yet you said government is someone who represents you. THATS A MIDDLEMAN. you have very low comprehension skills.

Again, pointless straw man and another juvenile insult.


This by fact shows a hole in your intelligence. or whatever you would like to call it.

And another child like insult. You going to get around here with any proof or continue to expose Freeman as the woo it is?

[JimBenArm]

Because we have given our power of life and liberty to people who use and abuse there power for there own personal interest.

If you dont get this you gotta be really white.
Or really sane...

[Red3]

ANYONE CAN EXIST WITH OR WITHOUT GOVERNMENT JUST LIKE THEY CAN BELIEVE IN UNDERWEAR GNOMES.

A the risk of sounding repetitive, why should we care about the freeman movement and live without government? What are the benefits?

[Cl1mh4224rd]

just like you said government isnt a middleman but yet you said government is someone who represents you. THATS A MIDDLEMAN.


I see "middleman" is another concept you don't fully grasp. To act as a middleman requires three parites: the first party (you), the second party (the middleman), and the third party (some other person or group).

Who is the third party?

[LightinDarkness]

But... but...

It's the law of the land! Of. The. Land! Reality has to bend to my will, and the Law of the Land! Because I said so! Really! Get your hands off me! You're just a middleman! You're not the boss of me!

As long as you claim you are JimBenArm of the Family of JREF and Not Mr. BenArm, you will be safe from my clutches!

<Insert evil cackle>

[LightinDarkness]

No your just afraid of the bully and truth. You are taking being a FREE MAN and claiming it to be something it isnt, or using someones deluded version to prove your point.

Hysterics continue. Freeman isn't real. Its a made up concept. Like unicorns. You can claim you see unicorns all day - but there is nothing there.


BEING FREE MEANS STANDING ALONE.
BEING A MAN IS SOMETHING WE CALL OUR SPECIES OF CREATURE WITH LIFE.

Yet you continue to use government subsidized internet. And yes, the government subsidizes internet infrastructure. GET OFF THE INTERNET IF YOUR A FREE MAN ON THE LAND.


ANYONE CAN EXIST WITH OR WITHOUT GOVERNMENT JUST LIKE THEY CAN BELIEVE IN UNDERWEAR GNOMES.

Speaks for itself.

[Bluekush623]

I only go to bars with friends, so there's no personal need to jump in on someone else's conversation. However, it does happen; fairly often. Of course, that's a completely different social environment. It's a shame you don't quite get that.

Wow like a care you have friends. stop trying to defend your point. it an analogy. id rather have a personal discussion with you then jumping on the bandwagon of the hot topic of the moment.


If no one needs government, then why should government exist?


Because people you it as a tool for personal gain.



Then you admit that government is needed, but you don't believe that it is needed by anyone?

How exactly does that work? What work do they do that is necessary and yet unnecessary?

Government is a tool, just like you can use a hammer to build a house you can use it too kill someone.

Just because your friends jump off a bridge doesnt mean you have to do it.

The real issue come down to knowing true liberty and freedom and only you are in control of it.

[Cl1mh4224rd]

You are taking being a FREE MAN and claiming it to be something it isnt [...]


Your idea of a "free man" sounds like a moocher. You never explained how your government-less society would handle things like transportation, and defense against hostile entities.

It sounds like you want government to exist, so that they can provide you with these things. You just don't want to be subject their laws. Murder with impunity; earn money through labor, but retain the right to refuse paying off your debts; etc...

ANYONE CAN EXIST WITH OR WITHOUT GOVERNMENT JUST LIKE THEY CAN BELIEVE IN UNDERWEAR GNOMES.


Then why are you so upset that we believe what we believe? Seems rather intolerant of you.

[Bluekush623]

Actually your denial of a quite real institution lends credence that you are mentally ill. I want you to go rob a store - make sure you don't shot anyone, as I don't want anyone hurt to demonstrate your stupidity. Now, when you walk out with the stolen goods, call the police and tell them you stole some stuff from XYZ store but the government is not real so they can't do anything about it.

Report back what happens when you get out of that fake jail for your fake prison sentence for stealing. [/QUOTE]

Like i said you are being DISHONEST, I already said it doesnt mean you are allowed to steal, murder, rape or damage property.

THIS IS WHY YOU ARE DUMB.


Hes getting more delusional. The only one insulting people around here is you, and it is evidence and proof of your hysteria.

Sorry but you just insulted me calling me mentally ill, when i only sad you have a lack of intelligence, WHICH IS PROVEN.



Again, pointless straw man and another juvenile insult.

And another child like insult. You going to get around here with any proof or continue to expose Freeman as the woo it is?

IF YOU CAN DISBAND GOVERNMENT HOW IS IT WOO. ITS FACT, STOP LYING.

[Red3]

Government is a tool, just like you can use a hammer to build a house you can use it too kill someone.



You could apply that logic to anything.

[Bluekush623]

Your idea of a "free man" sounds like a moocher. You never explained how your government-less society would handle things like transportation, and defense against hostile entities.

GOVERNMENT = SOCIETY. Without the UNITED STATES Government there could be countless groups of people who wish to improve our lives and there are. You guys are just scared to look at what government has hid in their closet to keep this train moving. If you wish to be associated with liars and thieves you can but dont be so shocked when people had said they have had enough.


It sounds like you want government to exist, so that they can provide you with these things. You just don't want to be subject their laws. Murder with impunity; earn money through labor, but retain the right to refuse paying off your debts; etc...

Your being dishonest, stop this.




Then why are you so upset that we believe what we believe? Seems rather intolerant of you.

Im not upset at what you believe.

The problem is you believe people cant live without government.

[Cl1mh4224rd]

stop trying to defend your point.


Ummm... Seriously? What? Why? Can't you counter it?

Because people you it as a tool for personal gain.


Then you've answered your own question: "Why would anyone need government?"

I had thought the question was purely rhetorical, but apparently you merely needed to be pushed into answering it for yourself. Why you put yourself through all of this is beyond me.

However, there is still the matter of what "work" you believe still needs to be done by government, even though you also seem to believe that government should be essentially.

What work does government do that requires its existence and yet its existence is not required by the individual?

Government is a tool, just like you can use a hammer to build a house you can use it too kill someone.

Just because your friends jump off a bridge doesnt mean you have to do it.


You realize that none of that makes the least bit of sense, right?

The real issue come down to knowing true liberty and freedom and only you are in control of it.


Right. Anarchy.

[Bluekush623]

Hysterics continue. Freeman isn't real. Its a made up concept. Like unicorns. You can claim you see unicorns all day - but there is nothing there.

And a citizen isnt real then.



Yet you continue to use government subsidized internet. And yes, the government subsidizes internet infrastructure. GET OFF THE INTERNET IF YOUR A FREE MAN ON THE LAND.

Who said i was a freeman on the land? im simply saying it can be done.


Speaks for itself.

[Checkmite]

Id appreciate if you would start your own conversation instead of jumping in Light and I's discussion. it only creates confusion as who has what point of view.

Not my problem. Anybody who can read your posts is capable of responding to them. Are you willing to back up your statements against Light's analysis but not mine? If so, why?

Correct they are CERTAIN types of RULES not laws.

Their applications are the same; their enforcement is the same. The penalties for breaking them are administered in exactly the same way, making them no different in any real sense. Arguing over semantics wouldn't change any of these things. The point is - you must follow them, or you will be penalized.

No they are aliens because they belong to ANOTHER government(society). Every land mass has been claimed by some society it doesnt mean everyone else has to hit the highway. But your definition freeman should be kicked off earth.

No, they are aliens because they don't belong to the native government, period.

What would we call real aliens then? would they be subject to our statutes and acts? No they wouldnt unless they agreed to it.

What do you mean "real aliens"?

You all seem to fail to understand Statutes and Acts are not LAWS they are rules.

They are applied to you the same. The consequences for breaking them are the same.

No you are tricked by their sleight of hand.

And you are fooled by a delusion of your own making. This "fortune cookie" routine of uttering and repeating your own personal axioms without backing them up is not winning you any points.

What laws, statutes and acts are rules given authority by society aka a group of people.

Wanna try and reparse that?

Dishonor means not fulfilling your obligation.

All you skeptics are being dishonest calling being a freeman mostly to get out of debts.

That's the way it started - if you don't like it, you need to take that up with the most vocal representatives of your movement; because if it's a misconception, it stems from their words and activities.

People who try and break their obligations are just as worse as the people who placed the risk in front of them.

I'm glad we're able to agree on something.


And whoever they contract with.

And who, exactly, is your congressman "contracting with"? Your congressman is a "middleman" between you and whom, exactly?

Yes democracy is MOB rule, but what happens when your not apart of the mob.

True - mob rule isn't that bad of a description; I've also heard democracy referred to by anarchists as "tyranny of the majority", and "two wolves and a sheep voting on what's for dinner". Of course, this ignores the fact that the two wolves and a sheep are only what they are for one particular moment; in the next moment on another issue, who was once a wolf might now be a sheep, and vice versa - or perhaps it's all wolves this time. But yes, the way democracy works, there's always going to be some people who don't get their way. Such people are free to complain and try to change things, but they still have to follow whatever rules are made.

Cmon skeptics you can think outside the box, i know you can do it.

There's thinking outside the box, and then there's what you're doing, which is thinking so far outside the box that there's no longer any box anywhere nearby because you're off in La-La Land and you've lost all connection with reality.


But you accept it by going along with the current structure.

And you think the natives still aren't disputing what the whites did to them? or Blacks?

"The natives"? Right, well there have been many pushes in the past, and during the present, to bring awareness to the matter of the brutal and careless way the country was settled; and aside from a certain rebel-flag-waving segment of the populace, most people are firmly convinced that such activity, and black slavery, were completely wrong. Most people also realize, however, that nobody who's alive today killed or raped any Native American, nor enslaved any black person.

Actually Steel Bars are real not like the rules kids make when they play hide and go seek(statutes and acts).

You can be fined and/or placed in jail for violating statutes and acts. Pretend you cannot, at your own peril.

Whoever they contract with.

Names, please.

Government is your friend who goes and gets your drugs aka middleman.

Gets your drugs from whom? The "dealer"?

And who is the "dealer" that your government gets the drugs from? Names, please.

Statutes and Acts ARE NOT LAWS, they are RULES OF SOCIETY.

Laws are also rules of society.

If its your land then its my land you self righteous egotistical child.

It is not. It can't be yours AND mine at the same time. I think it's mine. You think it's yours. One of us must be wrong. How do we find out who?

Leave me alone and i leave you alone. its simple.

I'm not going to leave you alone if you're on my land and I don't want you there.

[Bluekush623]

Ummm... Seriously? What? Why? Can't you counter it?

Because it was a moot point. You can look like a fool jumping into any cnversation you want.


Then you've answered your own question: "Why would anyone need government?"

I had thought the question was purely rhetorical, but apparently you merely needed to be pushed into answering it for yourself. Why you put yourself through all of this is beyond me.

However, there is still the matter of what "work" you believe still needs to be done by government, even though you also seem to believe that government should be essentially.

What work does government do that requires its existence and yet its existence is not required by the individual?

You realize that none of that makes the least bit of sense, right?
Right. Anarchy.

Everything you just said doesnt make sense.

This isnt about whether or not government should exist or not, but whether or not you have to be apart of it.

[Cl1mh4224rd]

Without the UNITED STATES Government there could be countless groups of people who wish to improve our lives and there are.


If there are already countless groups wishing and capable of improving lives, then why do you believe the U.S. government is a hindrance?

You guys are just scared to look at what government has hid in their closet to keep this train moving.


How can we be afraid of something that hasn't been provided? However, we're all well aware that many members of various governments aren't saints.

If you wish to be associated with liars and thieves [...]


Is it your contention, then, that everyone in the employ of a government is a liar and a thief? Or just the undefinable "elites"?

If it's the former, then I take that as an attack on the very character of a close, personal friend of mine, and urge you to watch your tongue in the future.

If it's the latter, then I have no personal or professional association with these fanciful "elite".

[...]you can but dont be so shocked when people had said they have had enough.


There's a system in place for removing officials whom you feel do not represent you.

Your being dishonest, stop this.


How so? You admit that you wish not to be bound by any laws but your own. What would prevent you from, or punish you for, killing me if I made you angry enough? You seem incapable of extracting yourself from even a simple online discussion before your temper flared enough to resort to typing in all caps.

Im not upset at what you believe.


Don't lie to me, or yourself. If you weren't upset, then why did you resort to typing in all caps? If you weren't aware, that's the equivalent of shouting online. You seemed angry enough to resort to shouting. You were upset.

he problem is you believe people cant live without government.


Now it is you who are being dishonest. I feel that those who wish to live without government should do so completely; that means no public transportation, no public libraries, no public education, no use of government-maintained roads; nothing.

You won't even be able to buy things from legitimate businesses because of the sales tax.

Are you truly willing to accept that?

[JimBenArm]

I wish he'd spell out exactly how I can be free from this government stuff. I'm getting awful tired of paying a 1% earnings tax to Kansas City, and the Parks and Recreation Commission is annoying me. Don't even get me started on the Area Transportation Authority! They don't even have a bus stop in front of my house! The nerve!
And the stupid artwork they put on top of the Convention Center. I have to pay for that? Huh? Those stupid fountains on every freakin' corner? Yeah, I know Kansas City is supposed to be the "City of Fountains" but come on! Does that have to mean "City of Fountains in every little corner we can find to cram one in"? I didn't vote for them! Unfair! Free me from the oppression! Curse you, City Council!

[Cl1mh4224rd]

It should also be pointed out that "living without government" means living without currency. It'll be tough doing business with those companies still "living with government".

Build your own houses from lumber you cut and milled yourself, from your own land. Vehicles will be difficult, to say the least.

[Bluekush623]

Not my problem. Anybody who can read your posts is capable of responding to them. Are you willing to back up your statements against Light's analysis but not mine? If so, why?

i can back it up against anyone cause its truth.



Their applications are the same; their enforcement is the same. The penalties for breaking them are administered in exactly the same way, making them no different in any real sense. Arguing over semantics wouldn't change any of these things. The point is - you must follow them, or you will be penalized.

Wrong.Wrong.Wrong.



No, they are aliens because they don't belong to the native government, period.

No there are aliens because they belong to someone else.



What do you mean "real aliens"?


Other life forms who may come to earth.


They are applied to you the same. The consequences for breaking them are the same.

Wrong.



And you are fooled by a delusion of your own making. This "fortune cookie" routine of uttering and repeating your own personal axioms without backing them up is not winning you any points.

Keep thinking you are not the slave


Wanna try and reparse that?


It is important to realise that a statute in and of itself is not a law de jure but merely de facto. It is a legislated rule of a society which has been given the force of law, by consent of the governed.



That's the way it started - if you don't like it, you need to take that up with the most vocal representatives of your movement; because if it's a misconception, it stems from their words and activities.

Its not my movement or the foundation of finding freedom.



I'm glad we're able to agree on something.



And who, exactly, is your congressman "contracting with"? Your congressman is a "middleman" between you and whom, exactly?

whatever the government does, whether its creating rules or roads.



True - mob rule isn't that bad of a description; I've also heard democracy referred to by anarchists as "tyranny of the majority", and "two wolves and a sheep voting on what's for dinner". Of course, this ignores the fact that the two wolves and a sheep are only what they are for one particular moment; in the next moment on another issue, who was once a wolf might now be a sheep, and vice versa - or perhaps it's all wolves this time. But yes, the way democracy works, there's always going to be some people who don't get their way. Such people are free to complain and try to change things, but they still have to follow whatever rules are made.

Exactly and this is all mumbo-jumbo bs people play in the game.

What happens when you never put your pieces on the game board?



There's thinking outside the box, and then there's what you're doing, which is thinking so far outside the box that there's no longer any box anywhere nearby because you're off in La-La Land and you've lost all connection with reality.

No your trapped in reality




"The natives"? Right, well there have been many pushes in the past, and during the present, to bring awareness to the matter of the brutal and careless way the country was settled; and aside from a certain rebel-flag-waving segment of the populace, most people are firmly convinced that such activity, and black slavery, were completely wrong. Most people also realize, however, that nobody who's alive today killed or raped any Native American, nor enslaved any black person.

BUT WE GO ALONG WITH IT..its like seeing a dead body in the basement that our parents killed before we were born. I guarantee any court would prosecute the child as well for keeping the secret/conspiracy going.



You can be fined and/or placed in jail for violating statutes and acts. Pretend you cannot, at your own peril.

Not if you are not under there jurisdiction.



Names, please.

How about partnership with blackwater or newly named Xe. that was a contract. it doesnt matter who they do it with its the fact that they contract with people in your name, since you have them consent, which you dont have to do.


Gets your drugs from whom? The "dealer"?

And who is the "dealer" that your government gets the drugs from? Names, please.

its an analogy, light doesn't believe the government is not a middleman, when they are representatives.


Laws are also rules of society.


But statutes and acts only get authority from consent.


It is not. It can't be yours AND mine at the same time. I think it's mine. You think it's yours. One of us must be wrong. How do we find out who?


Stop playing dumb, its everyones land and we most live with it.


I'm not going to leave you alone if you're on my land and I don't want you there.

Its not your land.

[Cl1mh4224rd]

I was born here, this land is my land just like its your land.

Its not your land.


Hmmm...?

[Bluekush623]

Hmmm...?

ITS EVERYONES LAND. NOT ONE SINGLE PERSON, GROUP, ENTITY or SOCIETY.

[Checkmite]

i can back it up against anyone cause its truth.

Then stop complaining. And start actually backing up your statements, rather than just repeating them.


Wrong.Wrong.Wrong.

Why? Be specific.

Other life forms who may come to earth.

Uh oh, here we go...

Wrong.

Of course it is. It just IS...right?

It is important to realise that a statute in and of itself is not a law de jure but merely de facto. It is a legislated rule of a society which has been given the force of law, by consent of the governed.

If there's a statute that says you can't blast your car stereo at 3AM in the morning and you do it anyway, you're going to get fined for it. Merely telling the judge that you chose not to "consent" to that particular statute will not get you off the hook.

Exactly and this is all mumbo-jumbo bs people play in the game.

What happens when you never put your pieces on the game board?

There is no such option. All land is owned and regulated. Your piece is on the board whether you like it or not. The piece is called a "congressman".

No your trapped in reality

Right where I want to be. Pity the same can't be said of you.


BUT WE GO ALONG WITH IT..its like seeing a dead body in the basement that our parents killed before we were born. I guarantee any court would prosecute the child as well for keeping the secret/conspiracy going.

Killing someone and keeping their corpse around is against the law - a law made and enforced by the government. Your analogy doesn't work unless the government's existence violates some kind of law - whose law? Made by which government? Which court would prosecute you for going along with the existence of the government?

How about partnership with blackwater or newly named Xe. that was a contract. it doesnt matter who they do it with its the fact that they contract with people in your name, since you have them consent, which you dont have to do.

You seem to have your parties mixed up. Blackwater was contracted to work FOR the government (and by extension, you); the government did not contract YOU to work for Blackwater. The difference is important.

its an analogy, light doesn't believe the government is not a middleman, when they are representatives.

The government is your avatar. It essentially -is- you, in matters of legislation and execution of laws.

But statutes and acts only get authority from consent.

No, they get authority from the legislative body that passes them and the judicial body that interprets them, and the executive body that enforces them.


Its not your land.

Prove it.

[Checkmite]

ITS EVERYONES LAND. NOT ONE SINGLE PERSON, GROUP, ENTITY or SOCIETY.

"Everyone" is a group. "Society" is the term used to decribe this group.

[D'rok]

I'm trying to decipher what, in this bizarre legal, um..."reasoning", qualifies as legitimate law. As far as I can tell, it has to be some form of common law of contract and/or some form of "natural" law - maybe constitutional law? Every other kind of law is illegitimate, apparently.

Yikes.

[Cl1mh4224rd]

ITS EVERYONES LAND. NOT ONE SINGLE PERSON, GROUP, ENTITY or SOCIETY.


No concept of private property, then? You don't mind if I take your water without asking, then, do you? Afterall, it's as much mine as it is yours. How about your cows, too? Mine died a few months back, because I didn't take good care of them, but yours are nice and healthy. What's that, you say? You only have enough to feed your family? Well, what about mine? I thought we were in this together?!

[Bluekush623]

Then stop complaining. And start actually backing up your statements, rather than just repeating them.

No one is complaining. Your jumping into a conversation you have no clue about.

the point is simple LightinDarkness claims being a FREEMAN is the ULTIMATE WOO, when being a Freeman factual and real.


Why? Be specific.

Because STATUTES AND ACTS ARE RULES GIVEN AUTHORITY DUE TOO YOUR CONSENT.

If they arent its slavery. bottom line.

everyone of you skeptics in here is retarded and needs to seek a new education.


Uh oh, here we go...


Oh because humans can be the only intelligent life form in Space.


Of course it is. It just IS...right?


stop with the semantics you guys are just wrong.


If there's a statute that says you can't blast your car stereo at 3AM in the morning and you do it anyway, you're going to get fined for it. Merely telling the judge that you chose not to "consent" to that particular statute will not get you off the hook.

Nobody is cherry picking which rules aka statutes and acts to break because there everyone is a made up rule.

EVERYONE of you skeptics are being dishonest, just because you dont agree with the government it doesnt give you the right to disturb the peace. which u guys are making freeman out to be.

Producing Negativity and death is not the goal of a freeman, it would be to create life and liberty. Hence the reason for ditching government.


There is no such option. All land is owned and regulated. Your piece is on the board whether you like it or not. The piece is called a "congressman".


Wrong, if not then this is slavery.


Right where I want to be. Pity the same can't be said of you.


No i pity for you.



Killing someone and keeping their corpse around is against the law - a law made and enforced by the government. Your analogy doesn't work unless the government's existence violates some kind of law - whose law? Made by which government? Which court would prosecute you for going along with the existence of the government?

you missed the whole point. no need to go farther


You seem to have your parties mixed up. Blackwater was contracted to work FOR the government (and by extension, you); the government did not contract YOU to work for Blackwater. The difference is important.


I didnt say the government contracted me to work for black water. I said the government contracted blackwater to work for society.

Cmon you produce fallacies in every statement.


The government is your avatar. It essentially -is- you, in matters of legislation and execution of laws.

Lol stop with the semantics. Avatar is a middleman you dumb dumb.


No, they get authority from the legislative body that passes them and the judicial body that interprets them, and the executive body that enforces them.

WE GIVE CONSENT TO THE 3 BRANCHES of GOVERNMENT TO CARRY OUT OUR WILL. IF NOT ITS SLAVERY.

how slow are you?


Prove it.

Cause billions of people live on this earth, and theres no evidence the creator of this place gave authority too anyone.

Its real simple if you skeptics actually read you would bash government just like you do religion.

As they are both systems which you give control to administer your life. Its that simple.

[Bluekush623]

"Everyone" is a group. "Society" is the term used to decribe this group.

NO YOUR WRONG, EVERYONE is not a Society.

A Society is a group of people who AGREE to be apart of that society.

Just living with a group of people doesnt make you one of them or apart of there group.

No one can be forced to be apart of any society, if so once again this is slavery/

[Bluekush623]

No concept of private property, then? You don't mind if I take your water without asking, then, do you? Afterall, it's as much mine as it is yours. How about your cows, too? Mine died a few months back, because I didn't take good care of them, but yours are nice and healthy. What's that, you say? You only have enough to feed your family? Well, what about mine? I thought we were in this together?!

Stop being dishonest, not once did i say private property doesnt exist, i said this planet is EVERYONES planet.

[D'rok]

Producing Negativity and death is not the goal of a freeman, it would be to create life and liberty. Hence the reason for ditching government.

The life of man, solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short - i.e, "negativity and death" - is a plausible result of ditching government.

Give old Hobbes a read. He's still relevant. You will have to refute him if you want to be taken seriously.

Linky (http://books.google.ca/books?id=DhlOzCmNYj8C&dq=leviathan&printsec=frontcover&source=bl&ots=Ukx4TDpyTL&sig=olFwivM1yGPg1odQ7achy4k68GU&hl=en&ei=GHJRSuHBN56Ntgflj8HpCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3)

[Travis]

Stop being dishonest, not once did i say private property doesnt exist, i said this planet is EVERYONES planet.

So your place is also my place? Awesome. I've needed somewhere to store barrels of toxic benzene for some time now. What's the address there so I can ship it quickly?


Incidentally I would like an explanation on how the abandonment of civilization (which is what you are doing if you abolish government) is going to benefit the entirety of the planet?

[Bluekush623]

The life of man, solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short - i.e, "negativity and death" - is a plausible result of ditching government.

Give old Hobbes a read. He's still relevant. You will have to refute him if you want to be taken seriously.

Linky (http://books.google.ca/books?id=DhlOzCmNYj8C&dq=leviathan&printsec=frontcover&source=bl&ots=Ukx4TDpyTL&sig=olFwivM1yGPg1odQ7achy4k68GU&hl=en&ei=GHJRSuHBN56Ntgflj8HpCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3)

yawn. not gunna read something derived from the bible about politics/government.

ive already established that government and religion both the samething. middleman who take you too the answer.

unless if you were going somewhere else with this, stop talking in tongues and just be straight up.

[JoeyDonuts]

I don't want to share anything I have with anybody else.

It's mine and nobody can have it. I'm going to stake out certain boundaries and then I'm going to hoard medicine, ammunition, supplies, survival equipment, and raw natural resources. Then I'm going to fire on anybody that tries to take it.

I'd like to see how bluekush solves this particular intellectual exercise.

[Bluekush623]

So your place is also my place? Awesome. I've needed somewhere to store barrels of toxic benzene for some time now. What's the address there so I can ship it quickly?


Incidentally I would like an explanation on how the abandonment of civilization (which is what you are doing if you abolish government) is going to benefit the entirety of the planet?

Stop being dishonest. You fail at reading. And im not going to play your semantics.

Ive already said many societies can exist with or without government, government is not the only society.

You skeptics are so caught up in being skeptic you stop thinking and being a skeptic.

[Bluekush623]

I don't want to share anything I have with anybody else.

It's mine and nobody can have it. I'm going to stake out certain boundaries and then I'm going to hoard medicine, ammunition, supplies, survival equipment, and raw natural resources. Then I'm going to fire on anybody that tries to take it.

I'd like to see how bluekush solves this particular intellectual exercise.

Well in your egotistical view, you seem to not realize that everyone else could be doing the same thing you are doing.

so you fail, try again.

[D'rok]

yawn. not gunna read something derived from the bible about politics/government.

ive already established that government and religion both the samething. middleman who take you too the answer.

unless if you were going somewhere else with this, stop talking in tongues and just be straight up.
The title is a biblical metaphor. The political theory is based entirely on natural science, imperfectly understood as it was at the time, and developed through syllogistic logic. Hobbes was accused of atheism - a very serious accusation at the time. In other words, this is not "...something derived from the bible about politics/government."

Intellectual laziness is not a virtue.

[JoeyDonuts]

Well in your egotistical view, you seem to not realize that everyone else could be doing the same thing you are doing.

They very well could be. Let's just have everybody stake out a parcel of land, keep everyone else off it, abolish government, do away with protections for the common welfare and basic social services.

You could find examples of this kind of society in history, but they aren't really around anymore save some parts of Africa and more remote places in the Middle East.

You might feel comfortable living like that, but I think you'll find most people don't.

[Bluekush623]

The title is a biblical metaphor. The political theory is based entirely on natural science, imperfectly understood as it was at the time, and developed through syllogistic logic. Hobbes was accused of atheism - a very serious accusation at the time. In other words, this is not "...something derived from the bible about politics/government."

Intellectual laziness is not a virtue.


Ok soooo? Stop beating around the bush and say what you want to say, your the one showing intellectual laziness.

Dont you guys laugh at people who post links without saying what they believe and what is their opinion on the work.

[Cl1mh4224rd]

Stop being dishonest, not once did i say private property doesnt exist, i said this planet is EVERYONES planet.


But by rebuffing Checkmite's warning to deal with anyone he doesn't want on his property, by saying it isn't actually his property, then... what? Denying people the right to protect their land sounds pretty bad.

Unless... you're not suggesting... Nooo... Where will people live and feel safe if they aren't allowed to keep troublemakers away? Are you suggesting we should all be nomadic, too?

You know, you could end all this pretty quickly if you'd just explain to us how your version of "society" is actually supposed to work. You keep insisting that it would be better for everyone, but you don't even seem to have a clear idea what it would actually be like. You refuse to suggest ways one might deal with conflicts in this new world order of yours.

You also seem to be under this immense delusion that the only "bully" on the playground is the government, and if it just went away, everything would be peachy. Guess what? You're in for a shock, buddy. I could easily be the bully in your new world, and there would be a million more like me. What would you do about it?

[Bluekush623]

They very well could be. Let's just have everybody stake out a parcel of land, keep everyone else off it, abolish government, do away with protections for the common welfare and basic social services.

You could find examples of this kind of society in history, but they aren't really around anymore save some parts of Africa and more remote places in the Middle East.

You might feel comfortable living like that, but I think you'll find most people don't.

abolishing government is not abolishing society.

[JoeyDonuts]

abolishing government is not abolishing society.

A society without government is doomed to fail, or at least languish in technological isolation.

I defy you to provide an example of a modern, flourishing society where this isn't the case.

Even the internet you enjoy using is a construct created by the machinations of government.

[Bluekush623]

But by rebuffing Checkmite's warning to deal with anyone he doesn't want on his property, by saying it isn't actually his property, then... what? Denying people the right to protect their land sounds pretty bad.

Unless... you're not suggesting... Nooo... Where will people live and feel safe if they aren't allowed to keep troublemakers away? Are you suggesting we should all be nomadic, too?

You know, you could end all this pretty quickly if you'd just explain to us how your version of "society" is actually supposed to work. You keep insisting that it would be better for everyone, but you don't even seem to have a clear idea what it would actually be like. You refuse to suggest ways one might deal with conflicts in this new world order of yours.

You also seem to be under this immense delusion that the only "bully" on the playground is the government, and if it just went away, everything would be peachy. Guess what? You're in for a shock, buddy. I could easily be the bully in your new world, and there would be a million more like me. What would you do about it?

Lol keep thinking you know so much, im done arguing with you now just like light and checkmite is next. you guys are spewing the same propaganda that the earth would fall into peril without government.

[JoeyDonuts]

Lol keep thinking you know so much, im done arguing with you now just like light and checkmite is next. you guys are spewing the same propaganda that the earth would fall into peril without government.

Strawman.

Never said anything about the "earth" falling into peril.

However, the welfare of human societies as a whole would be significantly altered with the absence of government.

Who are you going to report crimes to? Actually, in your world, "crimes" wouldn't exist as they are defined by "laws" which are clarified by "governments."

Who's going to help you out if your house catches on fire? A volunteer bucket brigade? What if you're seriously hurt and need medical assistance? Who comes and gets you?

In your world, you'd have an awful lot of people dying from otherwise preventable causes, utter lawlessness, spread of disease, non-existent education, and a literal host of other problems.

Governments were created to address the problems inherent in providing for a large society as populations increased and living areas got larger and spread over a wider area. People wanted safe places to do business, protection from people that wanted to hurt them, and basic functioning infrastructure.

I think you'd fit right in with the Bedouins, as you seem to already be accustomed to having your head in the sand.

[Bluekush623]

Strawman.

Never said anything about the "earth" falling into peril.

However, the welfare of human societies as a whole would be significantly altered with the absence of government.

Who are you going to report crimes to? Actually, in your world, "crimes" wouldn't exist as they are defined by "laws" which are clarified by "governments."

Who's going to help you out if your house catches on fire? A volunteer bucket brigade? What if you're seriously hurt and need medical assistance? Who comes and gets you?

In your world, you'd have an awful lot of people dying from otherwise preventable causes, utter lawlessness, spread of disease, non-existent education, and a literal host of other problems.

Governments were created to address the problems inherent in providing for a large society as populations increased and living areas got larger and spread over a wider area. People wanted safe places to do business, protection from people that wanted to hurt them, and basic functioning infrastructure.

I think you'd fit right in with the Bedouins, as you seem to already be accustomed to having your head in the sand.

you think your smart. too bad you arent.

[LightinDarkness]

My fellow JREFers, I notice that our Freeman woo here is still selectively answering questions and his responses..pages later..are still the equivalent of "WRONG BECAUSE I SAID SO LOL YOU DUMB"

Its so bad I don't even feel the particular need to respond to him like I did before. He wants to believe in this woo, and no amount of facts or reality will change that. This is a perfect, stunning example of what happens when your overwhelming desire to Believe overrides all levels of intelligence. His posting here is the biggest example of proof we can provide at how wrong Freeman on the Land woo really is. I think you, blue, you do a community service for us all by demonstrating the depth of ignorance and sheer stupidity beyond FOTL.

You've been asked this several times blue, and you always ignore it, so lets try again:

I am going to go to your house, kick you out at gun point, and live there. What are you going to do? No going to the police, because I don't consent to a contract with them. You can't go to them even if I did, since your now a FREEMAN ON THE LAND and no government has control over you. No negotiating with me, because I don't consent to a contract with you. What are you going to do?

Your only option is to shoot me or use your much maligned coercion to get me out. But what happens when I come back with friends next time?

There is a word for Freeman on the land woo: anarchy. A land where he with the most guns win. Maybe you like that because in your delusions you imagine you'll be that guy, but given the lack of knowledge you've displayed here about your own woo I highly doubt it.

[LightinDarkness]

I could easily be the bully in your new world, and there would be a million more like me. What would you do about it?

He would declare that you are a fictitious institution and not approach you if you had a flag behind you that has yellow fringes.

Because...that'll teach those bullies!

[LightinDarkness]

The title is a biblical metaphor. The political theory is based entirely on natural science, imperfectly understood as it was at the time, and developed through syllogistic logic. Hobbes was accused of atheism - a very serious accusation at the time. In other words, this is not "...something derived from the bible about politics/government."

Intellectual laziness is not a virtue.

A heroic attempt, but you don't really expect this guy to actually read anything, do you? Hes got his woo and hes right, and youtube tells him hes a freeman on the land! Who cares about fundamental works of contemporary philosophy like Hobbes? Hobbes is probably a legal fiction just like the government!

[LightinDarkness]

Id appreciate if you would start your own conversation instead of jumping in Light and I's discussion. it only creates confusion as who has what point of view.

I don't appreciate it. I hereby contract with all JREFers and allow them to debunk you. Of course they were doing it anyways, but hey, since you only work within the confines of your woo there is your consent.

Goodness, isn't FOTL woo fun?

[Travis]

Stop being dishonest.

About what did I lie?

You fail at reading. And im not going to play your semantics.

Clearly you'd prefer to just tell people they aren't smart for not agreeing with you.

Ive already said many societies can exist with or without government, government is not the only society.

History lesson; all societies that have moved beyond being hunter/gatherers have instituted some form of government. All of them! Know why this is? It's because organization is necessary once people start specializing on a particular type of livelihood. Once any aggregation of humans reaches that point where you have professionals--farmers, bakers, blacksmiths and carpenters--you need bureaucracy to run things to make sure that interactions of the disparate parts work together.

You skeptics are so caught up in being skeptic you stop thinking and being a skeptic.

It seems you are working from some alternate definition of "skeptic."

[Bluekush623]

My fellow JREFers, I notice that our Freeman woo here is still selectively answering questions and his responses..pages later..are still the equivalent of "WRONG BECAUSE I SAID SO LOL YOU DUMB"

Its so bad I don't even feel the particular need to respond to him like I did before. He wants to believe in this woo, and no amount of facts or reality will change that. This is a perfect, stunning example of what happens when your overwhelming desire to Believe overrides all levels of intelligence. His posting here is the biggest example of proof we can provide at how wrong Freeman on the Land woo really is. I think you, blue, you do a community service for us all by demonstrating the depth of ignorance and sheer stupidity beyond FOTL.

You've been asked this several times blue, and you always ignore it, so lets try again:

I am going to go to your house, kick you out at gun point, and live there. What are you going to do? No going to the police, because I don't consent to a contract with them. You can't go to them even if I did, since your now a FREEMAN ON THE LAND and no government has control over you. No negotiating with me, because I don't consent to a contract with you. What are you going to do?

Your only option is to shoot me or use your much maligned coercion to get me out. But what happens when I come back with friends next time?

There is a word for Freeman on the land woo: anarchy. A land where he with the most guns win. Maybe you like that because in your delusions you imagine you'll be that guy, but given the lack of knowledge you've displayed here about your own woo I highly doubt it.

Your being totally dishonest in your posts.

First I never claimed to be a freeman on the land. My position has been anyone can exist free of any society they wish too.
I was answering every response, until i said i would no longer.
You wont agree that representatives are middle men.
you claim one can disband government. but yet your are not allowed too.
and your attempts at being witty are lame.

YOU ARE BEING DISHONEST HOW MANY TIMES HAVE I SAID YOU STILL ARE NOT ALLOWED TO KILL, RAPE, MURDER, STEAL OR DAMAGE PROPERTY.

When one disturbs the peace order must solve the issue, whether if i blow your brains out walking into my door, if i go get a mob or ask for the peace officers to come assist me with a drunken idiot. You will not stake a untrue claim to my home.

You idiots here blanket the issues into black or white when its not that way. Government is only a group of people, NOT EVERYONE. Anyone can choose not to be apart of that society. And i never advocated anarchy.

MORE THEN 1 SOCIETY AN EXIST AT ANY GIVEN TIME.

this is already the land where the most guns win.

[JoeyDonuts]

you think your smart. too bad you arent.

My goodness, what a clever retort.

I see you're from the XBOX Live school of "headset debate."

[Bluekush623]

My goodness, what a clever retort.

I see you're from the XBOX Live school of "headset debate."

no im from the school of dont waste time with the worthless.

[LightinDarkness]

no im from the school of dont waste time with the worthless.

Thankfully for you, your teachers disagree.

[Bluekush623]

Thankfully for you, your teachers disagree.

actually all my teachers praised me.

[JoeyDonuts]

no im from the school of dont waste time with the worthless.

I don't know if you noticed the sign on the way in, champ, but this is a skeptic's forum. If you come in here and throw ridiculous and fantastic claims about this and that all over the place, expect to get called to the mat.

How about you back up your position with verifiable facts, historical examples of precedent, or anything that suggests you're here for anything other than trolling and lame juvenile ad hominem attacks?

If you can't do better than that, you're going to find yourself running afoul of the MA pretty quick, which won't surprise any of us.

I'm betting we'd all get a kick out of it if you claimed you weren't subject to the rules of this forum for one reason or another. I'm pretty sure that's been tried before.

[LightinDarkness]

Your being totally dishonest in your posts.

This word does not mean what you think it means. You think "dishonest" means people telling the truth and debunking you, when in reality it means something else.


First I never claimed to be a freeman on the land. My position has been anyone can exist free of any society they wish too.

Straw man, no one has argued any different.


I was answering every response, until i said i would no longer.

Wrong, you stopped answering because the evidence shows you are wrong and you quite simply cannot handle reality.


You wont agree that representatives are middle men.
you claim one can disband government. but yet your are not allowed too.
and your attempts at being witty are lame.

You are still going on about this middle man thing? You've been debunked on this since the second you posted. You are not allowed to disband my government, you are free to move somewhere else if you don't like it.

By the way, "lame"? What is this, 1995? More evidence we are dealing with a 15 year old.


YOU ARE BEING DISHONEST HOW MANY TIMES HAVE I SAID YOU STILL ARE NOT ALLOWED TO KILL, RAPE, MURDER, STEAL OR DAMAGE PROPERTY.

YOU ARE NOT GETTING THE POINT THAT IN YOUR WOO FANTASY UNDER FREEMAN MYTHOLOGY PEOPLE ARE IN FACT FREE TO KILL, RAPE, MURDER, STEAL, AND DAMAGE PROPERTY AND THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING YOU CAN DO ABOUT IT. THIS IS THE POINT.


When one disturbs the peace order must solve the issue, whether if i blow your brains out walking into my door, if i go get a mob or ask for the peace officers to come assist me with a drunken idiot. You will not stake a untrue claim to my home.

WRONG! You've just debunked yourself. You can't get the police as you are a freeman and have said you do not contract with the government. You don't get to use the services the rest of us pay for because you decide you like some of them.

Also, who says its untrue? I am a freeman on the land and I do not contract with you. I declare the place your living is my home. What are you going to do about it?


You idiots here blanket the issues into black or white when its not that way. Government is only a group of people, NOT EVERYONE. Anyone can choose not to be apart of that society. And i never advocated anarchy.

Freeman on the land woo is anarchy. And your continued insulting shows as usual you have no idea what you are ranting about.


MORE THEN 1 SOCIETY AN EXIST AT ANY GIVEN TIME.

OMG? YOU MEAN LIKE BRITAIN AND THE UNITED STATES? WHAT A REVELATION.


this is already the land where the most guns win.

Only in your deluded mind.

[LightinDarkness]

actually all my teachers praised me.

Again, this is with everything else you say only true in your fantasy world.

[LightinDarkness]

I'm betting we'd all get a kick out of it if you claimed you weren't subject to the rules of this forum for one reason or another. I'm pretty sure that's been tried before.

Blue, this is really a good way to stick it to all us skeptics and show us how Freeman on the Land is really legitimate and rocks our world. Declare to the forum staff that you do not consent to contract with them and dishonor them, then continue to post your child-like insults since you are a freeman poster.

If FOTL is real, then the forum staff will run away quaking in their boots because you pulled the magic legal words out.

Show us how real it is. I'm waiting.

[Bluekush623]

I don't know if you noticed the sign on the way in, champ, but this is a skeptic's forum. If you come in here and throw ridiculous and fantastic claims about this and that all over the place, expect to get called to the mat.

How about you back up your position with verifiable facts, historical examples of precedent, or anything that suggests you're here for anything other than trolling and lame juvenile ad hominem attacks?

If you can't do better than that, you're going to find yourself running afoul of the MA pretty quick, which won't surprise any of us.

I'm betting we'd all get a kick out of it if you claimed you weren't subject to the rules of this forum for one reason or another. I'm pretty sure that's been tried before.

no im bound to the rules here as i agreed to become apart of this society. something you guys cant grasp.

Then perhaps it would be a good idea if you actually followed the rules. Stop insulting other people, otherwise you will face further moderator action, up to and including suspension or banning.

[JoeyDonuts]

no im bound to the rules here as i agreed to become apart of this society. something you guys cant grasp.

This "society" has a governing body - the moderators and administrators - that enforce the rules of the Membership Agreement.

It is regulated, governed, and moderated. If you can't grasp that, perhaps remedial reading comprehension would be in order for you.

I swear, ULTIMA1 made better arguments than this guy.

[Bluekush623]

This "society" has a governing body - the moderators and administrators - that enforce the rules of the Membership Agreement.

It is regulated, governed, and moderated. If you can't grasp that, perhaps remedial reading comprehension would be in order for you.

I swear, ULTIMA1 made better arguments than this guy.

Your just typing to type now. i said i know you guys have rules.

[Red3]

Because we have given our power of life and liberty to people who use and abuse there power for there own personal interest.

If you dont get this you gotta be really white.

Power of life? Liberty? I'm alive and I pretty much do what I want within reason...How have I lost any liberty? We've got more liberty today (in the west at least) than we've ever had throughout history. We've got better health/living standards, a constant supply of food & clean water, education, welfare schemes...But all you can see is corruption, slavery, evil...It must suck to be you.

The freeman movement - if there was any weight to all this - would fall at the first hurdle in practice.


"Power of life" sounds like some empty new age buzz phrase to me.

White? Don't get it...

[LightinDarkness]

Your just typing to type now. i said i know you guys have rules.

Ah, but thats the problem. IF FOTL is real, then you can declare yourself free of those rules and send the moderators running for the exits when you invoke the magical words and phrases of FOTL.

What better way to show us all that FOTL is real then show that you can be freed from the enslaving and shackling rules of the forum?

But you can't even do that. Do you know why? Because FOTL is woo.

[Checkmite]

no im bound to the rules here as i agreed to become apart of this society. something you guys cant grasp.

What you don't seem to be able to grasp is that all of the land in this country, from corner to corner, has been staked out by this society. So if you or anyone else do NOT agree to "become a part of" our society, you're free to make all the declarations you want - but since this is our house, you still have to play by our rules if you want to live here, plain and simple.

[JoeyDonuts]

"Power of life" sounds like some empty new age buzz phrase to me.

That's what Pastor "Fartin' Bob" Tilton sells on BET at three in the morning.

[D'rok]

Ok soooo? Stop beating around the bush and say what you want to say, your the one showing intellectual laziness.

Dont you guys laugh at people who post links without saying what they believe and what is their opinion on the work.

I'm attempting to point out your profound ignorance. That book is the source of the liberal idea of governance by consent and covenant. Your notion of consent of the governed wouldn't even have entered your cultural concsiousness without that book and you don't even know what it is or what it says. I am giving you good advice, passed down from the Delphic Oracle - Bluekush, know thyself.

Or continue to wallow in ignorance. It's all the same to me, really.

[RHolmes]

I encountered this FOTL stuff for the first time last week. I've put my toe in a FOTL forum. They're a friendly bunch but mostly frighteningly uneducated. I doubt I'll stay long: if I attempted to address every misunderstanding of the law, I'd never get any bloody work done.

It seems to me that, at base, a lot of what they are talking about lies in the sphere of political philosophy, which is why - like D'rok - I wish they'd go off and read Hobbes et al.

Their grasp of the law is upsetting. Reading their understanding of the law is like listening to a blind man who's grabbed an elephant's tail talk about how he's an expert on the "snake". Much like blue here, in fact.

What really freaks me out about the forum is the "legal advice" (I use the term charitably) given to people facing court.

If FOTL were harmless woo, I'd just laugh at it. But it's sending people to jail.

[D'rok]

Their grasp of the law is upsetting. Reading their understanding of the law is like listening to a blind man who's grabbed an elephant's tail talk about how he's an expert on the "snake". Much like blue here, in fact.

Perfect analogy. And they wear their certainty like an impenetrable suit of armour.


BTW: Welcome to the forum.

[Rogue1stclass]

Didn't Wesley Snipes run afoul of some of this tripe and eventually have to actually plead "Stupidity" in court?

[Bluekush623]

Power of life? Liberty? I'm alive and I pretty much do what I want within reason...How have I lost any liberty? We've got more liberty today (in the west at least) than we've ever had throughout history. We've got better health/living standards, a constant supply of food & clean water, education, welfare schemes...But all you can see is corruption, slavery, evil...It must suck to be you.

The freeman movement - if there was any weight to all this - would fall at the first hurdle in practice.


"Power of life" sounds like some empty new age buzz phrase to me.

White? Don't get it...

Pretty Much eh? sounds quite vague and a cop out.

You have lost your liberty of ingesting whatever you wish into your body.

Actually before government we had the most freedom when our species were hunter gatherers.

And just because we get sweet incentives from the man doesnt mean it they are good, or that it makes up for the restrictions given to us.

yawn, life and liberty is in the american constitution, so much for being new age.

stop trolling people and seek truth.

[Bluekush623]

Ah, but thats the problem. IF FOTL is real, then you can declare yourself free of those rules and send the moderators running for the exits when you invoke the magical words and phrases of FOTL.

What better way to show us all that FOTL is real then show that you can be freed from the enslaving and shackling rules of the forum?

But you can't even do that. Do you know why? Because FOTL is woo.

see you are being completely dishonest and wrong. being a FREE MAN means knowing you as a conscious being have to right to contract with whoever you wish.

One can wish to not contract with government.

But if one wishes to contract they must follow the rules, just like signing up for this forum i must follow the rules.

being a freeman doesnt equate to being god.

stop trolling.

[Bluekush623]

What you don't seem to be able to grasp is that all of the land in this country, from corner to corner, has been staked out by this society. So if you or anyone else do NOT agree to "become a part of" our society, you're free to make all the declarations you want - but since this is our house, you still have to play by our rules if you want to live here, plain and simple.


Wrong, wrong, wrong.

Your just made to believe that.

[Bluekush623]

That's what Pastor "Fartin' Bob" Tilton sells on BET at three in the morning.

No its what your founding fathers sold to your ancestors. And what they still sell to you today.

[Bluekush623]

I'm attempting to point out your profound ignorance. That book is the source of the liberal idea of governance by consent and covenant. Your notion of consent of the governed wouldn't even have entered your cultural concsiousness without that book and you don't even know what it is or what it says. I am giving you good advice, passed down from the Delphic Oracle - Bluekush, know thyself.

Or continue to wallow in ignorance. It's all the same to me, really.

Sure a 1600 century book is the source for living free from certain societies. yawn, whatever you say.

its your profound ignorance keeping you from learning.

[Bluekush623]

I encountered this FOTL stuff for the first time last week. I've put my toe in a FOTL forum. They're a friendly bunch but mostly frighteningly uneducated. I doubt I'll stay long: if I attempted to address every misunderstanding of the law, I'd never get any bloody work done.

It seems to me that, at base, a lot of what they are talking about lies in the sphere of political philosophy, which is why - like D'rok - I wish they'd go off and read Hobbes et al.

Their grasp of the law is upsetting. Reading their understanding of the law is like listening to a blind man who's grabbed an elephant's tail talk about how he's an expert on the "snake". Much like blue here, in fact.

What really freaks me out about the forum is the "legal advice" (I use the term charitably) given to people facing court.

If FOTL were harmless woo, I'd just laugh at it. But it's sending people to jail.

Understand there is no REPRESENTATION WITHOUT CONSENT.

its very simple.

[D'rok]

Sure a 1600 century book is the source for living free from certain societies. yawn, whatever you say.

its your profound ignorance keeping you from learning.

What is the source of your ideas of consent and contract? Can you identify it? Can you trace the evolution of these notions? Do you think you live in isolation of history? Where did you learn that political authority is only legitimate if the governed consent to it? Where did you learn that consent is formalized contractually? Do you think these ideas are original to you or the FOTL folks you consort with?

Questions, questions. I don't think you have coherent answers.

[Bluekush623]

What is the source of your ideas of consent and contract? Can you identify it? Can you trace the evolution of these notions? Do you think you live in isolation of history? Where did you learn that political authority is only legitimate if the governed consent to it? Where did you learn that consent is formalized contractually? Do you think these ideas are original to you or the FOTL folks you consort with?

Questions, questions. I don't think you have coherent answers.

its simple you cant tell me what to do, if so then thats slavery.

[dudalb]

I think bluekush has been ingesting way too much of his namesake.

[dudalb]

its simple you cant tell me what to do, if so then thats slavery.

What reality are you living in?

[Bluekush623]

What reality are you living in?

your a joke too, attack the man not the argument, then play your word game to feel bigger then the other person.

[Pantaz]

its simple you cant tell me what to do, if so then thats slavery.

That is an astoundingly broad definition of slavery! It also fails to answer D'rok's questions:

What is the source of your ideas of consent and contract? Can you identify it? Can you trace the evolution of these notions? Do you think you live in isolation of history? Where did you learn that political authority is only legitimate if the governed consent to it? Where did you learn that consent is formalized contractually? Do you think these ideas are original to you or the FOTL folks you consort with?

[Bluekush623]

That is an astoundingly broad definition of slavery! It also fails to answer D'rok's questions:

it simple forget about hobbes, no one can force another to contract with them. if so that slavery.period.

[LightinDarkness]

That is an astoundingly broad definition of slavery! It also fails to answer D'rok's questions:

Its painfully obvious by this point that blue won't answer any questions because it would shatter his world. Any critical thought about FOTL woo does such things.

He doesn't want to think. He just wants to say the magic words and believe that he can somehow be "free" of all his responsibilities while everyone else pays for it.

Just thing about his definition of slavery - anything anyone makes you do that you don't want to do. Blue has lived a very cushioned and privileged life if he thinks that is slavery. Hes also, like most CTers, probably a doom and gloom teenager that screams at his parents that they are enslaving him whenever they tell him to make up his bed in the morning.

[Bluekush623]

Its painfully obvious by this point that blue won't answer any questions because it would shatter his world. Any critical thought about FOTL woo does such things.

He doesn't want to think. He just wants to say the magic words and believe that he can somehow be "free" of all his responsibilities while everyone else pays for it.

Just thing about his definition of slavery - anything anyone makes you do that you don't want to do. Blue has lived a very cushioned and privileged life if he thinks that is slavery. Hes also, like most CTers, probably a doom and gloom teenager that screams at his parents that they are enslaving him whenever they tell him to make up his bed in the morning.

no its because you still cant grasp that representation only occurs with consent.

[LightinDarkness]

no its because you still cant grasp that representation only occurs with consent.

Or he may just be a computer program (a poorly designed one), uttering the same things over and over even after they have been discussed and debunked.

Yet again, for the 8th or 9th time:

This is a straw man argument. No one denies representation requires consent, and you repeating this phrase doesn't really prove anything.

But what you refuse to grasp is that if you don't like your representation then it is up to you to vote in another representative, or leave the country. There are no magical legal words to declare that you do not consent and suddenly be free from the law.

[RHolmes]

Thanks for the welcome, D'rok. It's good to find people with whom to to discuss this particular brand of nuttiness. The guy who introduced me to it began raving about it after I announced that I was a lawyer. He wanted to make sure I knew all the legal stuff he knows. He's a lovely bloke and I suffer from high blood pressure, so for as long as we're working together, I'll be trying to steer our conversations away from FOTL.

No one denies representation requires consent, and you repeating this phrase doesn't really prove anything.

Quite.

Bluekush,

I agree that there can be no representation without consent. Can you tell me what you think constitutes consent?

[Bluekush623]

Or he may just be a computer program (a poorly designed one), uttering the same things over and over even after they have been discussed and debunked.

Yet again, for the 8th or 9th time:

This is a straw man argument. No one denies representation requires consent, and you repeating this phrase doesn't really prove anything.

if it requires consent, then anyone can deny it.


But what you refuse to grasp is that if you don't like your representation then it is up to you to vote in another representative, or leave the country. There are no magical legal words to declare that you do not consent and suddenly be free from the law.

No you dont have to vote another one in, YOU DO NOT HAVE TO HAVE SOMEONE REPRESENT YOU, if you do thats slavery bro.

And you dont have to leave the country. Its all made up rules on paper that have no eternal truth to them.

[Bluekush623]

Thanks for the welcome, D'rok. It's good to find people with whom to to discuss this particular brand of nuttiness. The guy who introduced me to it began raving about it after I announced that I was a lawyer. He wanted to make sure I knew all the legal stuff he knows. He's a lovely bloke and I suffer from high blood pressure, so for as long as we're working together, I'll be trying to steer our conversations away from FOTL.



Quite.

Bluekush,

I agree that there can be no representation without consent. Can you tell me what you think constitutes consent?

lots of things constitute consent but just living on some land some people call the united states isnt one of them.

[RHolmes]

Prompt reply!

In my view, if I stay in a hotel, make use of its facilities and enjoy its services, I am impliedly consenting to pay the hotel bill.

[LightinDarkness]

lots of things constitute consent but just living on some called which some people call the united states isnt one of them.

Actually, yes it is. By living in the United States you are giving your consent to be governed? Don't like it? Fine with us, go somewhere else.

This is what you don't understand. You don't get to live in a country and declare that you don't give consent to be governed while the rest of us have to pay for the services you use.

[LightinDarkness]

Prompt reply!

In my view, if I stay in a hotel, make use of its facilities and enjoy its services, I am impliedly consenting to pay the hotel bill.

In the FOTL view, you can do that and declare that you do not consent to contract with the hotel and this somehow makes you magically free of your obligations (the bill).

Of course, in reality if you go to the check out desk and declare you do not consent to contract with the hotel, they will laugh at you and charge your credit card.

But our friend here isn't living in reality. There is a large chance hes a teenager who is just raging against the machine and has never even paid for a hotel in his life. FOTL is giving him an outlet to vent against the evil gubment.

[RHolmes]

You don't get to live in a country and declare that you don't give consent to be governed while the rest of us have to pay for the services you use.

I'm wondering whether blue will now come up with the FOTL answer that it's not your taxes which pay for public services. No! It's The Bond!

Don't know about The Bond? Oh, you're in for a treat!

[RHolmes]

In the FOTL view, you can do that and declare that you do not consent to contract with the hotel and this somehow makes you magically free of your obligations (the bill).

Of course, in reality if you go to the check out desk and declare you do not consent to contract with the hotel, they will laugh at you and charge your credit card.

But our friend here isn't living in reality. There is a large chance hes a teenager who is just raging against the machine and has never even paid for a hotel in his life. FOTL is giving him an outlet to vent against the evil gubment.

Yes, they don't seem to realise that if you've used a company's services, you're already in a contract.

[Caustic Logic]

Dang Light in Darkness, congrats on a pretty successful thread, meaning a long one, meaning usually ambiguous success, persistent troll, endless side-tracks, or something... and many chances for education.

This issue is interesting to me, not that I've studied it, but have heard it around. The caps letters, admiralty law, etc... I think magical thinking is a good way to put it, and the image of a woo cowering at the back of a courtroom for fear of "approaching the bench" is hilarious in showing the effect of this strain on the infected class.

But there's another level to look at this from - eg, the 'Language is magic' observation Mr. Kush presented - it's true that "spell" being used for both magic and words is no coincidence, the magic name thing is simply such mundane technology now we fail to see how it is in that magic/science zone ultimately - we define our (mental) realities by the words we use and the ideas/feelings we attach to those words. Laws and obediance fall into the mental world range. We could all chose to redefine our realities and chose some other state that's more "free." But the results will be random and probably stupid, and as the counter-arguments run, the judge would laugh at you, the cops would take you to the jail, the forum people would deride you... One mental world is far predominant and is backed by a reasonable reading of written laws, while the other is puny as well as less logical so it loses. It's less noble than what a lot of you are saying but that's how I see it.

On "freedom" of the FOTL kind on any land anywhere... typical American individualist delusion. Feeling unfree in Europe? Simply pack a ship, sail west and claim your godright. Eastern seaboard getting too European? Just pack a wagon and roll west. California getting too unfree? Just head a little east and up into the mountains. That doesn't work? Pack up your arsenal and head to the gunfight zone. Most others in the word and in history have almost zero such chance for the middle steps. They can snap or endure right where they are in crowded cities under repressive regimes. Hopefully they have family/friends and hobbies to help...

Fact is there's a level where we ARE enslaved, if not to this government/system than to another. Anyone here ever been drafted and forced to fight your gov.s war whether you like it or not? If not it's a fluke of the times. Rights and responsibilities and privelges, sure it's a package deal but you have little choice. As the course of this thread shows - you can chose another country's sorta-slavery instead, that's about it.

For that matter, we are also enslaved by life. The tyranny of it! Stuck in a body that will die someday, that needs fed every day, that can become sick and injured... It's just a fact. So is the law as it exists. Get used to it.

[Bluekush623]

Prompt reply!

In my view, if I stay in a hotel, make use of its facilities and enjoy its services, I am impliedly consenting to pay the hotel bill.

of course. but a hotel is a confined space. no one can claim the open land.

[Bluekush623]

Actually, yes it is. By living in the United States you are giving your consent to be governed? Don't like it? Fine with us, go somewhere else.

This is what you don't understand. You don't get to live in a country and declare that you don't give consent to be governed while the rest of us have to pay for the services you use.

Dude the United states is not the land its the society of the people who live on the land.

By your definition any one who doesnt have a government should be kicked of the planet.

[D'rok]

Thanks for the welcome, D'rok. It's good to find people with whom to to discuss this particular brand of nuttiness. The guy who introduced me to it began raving about it after I announced that I was a lawyer. He wanted to make sure I knew all the legal stuff he knows. He's a lovely bloke and I suffer from high blood pressure, so for as long as we're working together, I'll be trying to steer our conversations away from FOTL.
Ah, I feel your pain. IANAL, but I am in law school. Legal woo is very, very aggravating.

[Caustic Logic]

of course. but a hotel is a confined space. no one can claim the open land.

Hey, you sound like Chief Sealth (Seattle) or something. How about if you claim some open land, then build enclosed spaces on it? That's usually what they do anyway.

You can always build a cardboard squatter's shack on the remaining unclaimed open land up against the back wall, on the other side of the transformer so the security light doesn't keep you awake.

I don't think I want to "contract" with this discussion anymore.

[Bluekush623]

In the FOTL view, you can do that and declare that you do not consent to contract with the hotel and this somehow makes you magically free of your obligations (the bill).

Of course, in reality if you go to the check out desk and declare you do not consent to contract with the hotel, they will laugh at you and charge your credit card.

But our friend here isn't living in reality. There is a large chance hes a teenager who is just raging against the machine and has never even paid for a hotel in his life. FOTL is giving him an outlet to vent against the evil gubment.

you have been dishonest in every single one of your posts.

being a freeman has nothing to do with ignoring all contracts its about knowing you are allowed to consent and deny certain contracts.

and if you accept a contract you are too follow those rules. and governance is only a contract.

[Bluekush623]

Dang Light in Darkness, congrats on a pretty successful thread, meaning a long one, meaning usually ambiguous success, persistent troll, endless side-tracks, or something... and many chances for education.

This issue is interesting to me, not that I've studied it, but have heard it around. The caps letters, admiralty law, etc... I think magical thinking is a good way to put it, and the image of a woo cowering at the back of a courtroom for fear of "approaching the bench" is hilarious in showing the effect of this strain on the infected class.

But there's another level to look at this from - eg, the 'Language is magic' observation Mr. Kush presented - it's true that "spell" being used for both magic and words is no coincidence, the magic name thing is simply such mundane technology now we fail to see how it is in that magic/science zone ultimately - we define our (mental) realities by the words we use and the ideas/feelings we attach to those words. Laws and obediance fall into the mental world range. We could all chose to redefine our realities and chose some other state that's more "free." But the results will be random and probably stupid, and as the counter-arguments run, the judge would laugh at you, the cops would take you to the jail, the forum people would deride you... One mental world is far predominant and is backed by a reasonable reading of written laws, while the other is puny as well as less logical so it loses. It's less noble than what a lot of you are saying but that's how I see it.

On "freedom" of the FOTL kind on any land anywhere... typical American individualist delusion. Feeling unfree in Europe? Simply pack a ship, sail west and claim your godright. Eastern seaboard getting too European? Just pack a wagon and roll west. California getting too unfree? Just head a little east and up into the mountains. That doesn't work? Pack up your arsenal and head to the gunfight zone. Most others in the word and in history have almost zero such chance for the middle steps. They can snap or endure right where they are in crowded cities under repressive regimes. Hopefully they have family/friends and hobbies to help...

Fact is there's a level where we ARE enslaved, if not to this government/system than to another. Anyone here ever been drafted and forced to fight your gov.s war whether you like it or not? If not it's a fluke of the times. Rights and responsibilities and privelges, sure it's a package deal but you have little choice. As the course of this thread shows - you can chose another country's sorta-slavery instead, that's about it.

For that matter, we are also enslaved by life. The tyranny of it! Stuck in a body that will die someday, that needs fed every day, that can become sick and injured... It's just a fact. So is the law as it exists. Get used to it.

he hasnt had a successful thread, he still wont agree that representatives are only middlemen.

[JimBenArm]

Say the secret word, win $100! Or get out of jail, free!

You don't sound a lot like Groucho. More like Grouchy.

[Cl1mh4224rd]

Lol keep thinking you know so much [...]


If I thought I knew so much, would I give you an impossibly easy method of putting me in my place?

You know, you could end all this pretty quickly if you'd just explain to us how your version of "society" is actually supposed to work.


You're damn right I would. But really, it's not that I feel I know so much, but that I feel you know so very little. You can't even explain what a "freeman on the land" world would be like. I'm not even asking for details, just general ideas about conflict resolution, long-distance transportation, defense, etc. You can't even pull the most rudimentary thought about these topics out of your behind. That says a lot about your level of "knowledge".

In addition, your reactions make it seem like I'm questioning your chosen religion; like this whole "freeman" thing is something you can't explain, but you just know is right.

[Bluekush623]

If I thought I knew so much, would I give you an impossibly easy method of putting me in my place?




You're damn right I would. But really, it's not that I feel I know so much, but that I feel you know so very little. You can't even explain what a "freeman on the land" world would be like. I'm not even asking for details, just general ideas about conflict resolution, long-distance transportation, defense, etc. You can't even pull the most rudimentary thought about these topics out of your behind. That says a lot about your level of "knowledge".

In addition, your reactions make it seem like I'm questioning your chosen religion; like this whole "freeman" thing is something you can't explain, but you just know is right.

All you skeptics are dishonest.

No one is talking about a freeman on the land world.

More then 1 society/government/group of people can exist at any given time.

What you guys dont understand is that anyone can choose to exist without that society.

Just because you guys pay income taxes for services doesnt mean someone not in your society cant also pay privately for some services. although they wont be able to receive support/welfare from that society.

if you say no your just being a egotistical, crybaby who doesnt want to share because there not one of us.

because as i said earlier government at its founding core is a private institution.

[dudalb]

I hate to say it, but Alex Libman makes a better argument for Anarchism then this guy. And Libman is not exactly convincing....

[JimBenArm]

Really? They don't have to be? Really and truly, and for honest and everything? We don't have to be citizens? We can be Freeloaders of the Land, and be called Freddy, and dress like Red Skelton? Do we get to live in railroad yards and eat out of old tin cans heated over a campfire? And get pneumonia and die and stuff?

Cool! Where can I sign up?

[LightinDarkness]

Yes, they don't seem to realise that if you've used a company's services, you're already in a contract.

Ah but the FOTL woo isn't quite that simple. See the links at the beginning of the thread. The woos who believe in this stuff are writing to companies telling them that they declare they do not consent to a contract and thus don't owe anything on their credit cars, cars, mortgages, etc.

Of course, such claims are deservedly laughed at by the companies. But its not a good assumption that FOTLers believe just because you used a company's service that your in a contract.

[LightinDarkness]

you have been dishonest in every single one of your posts.

I am really tired of this. The only dishonesty going on here is your perception of reality. You are a liar, telling lies to everyone and yourself.


being a freeman has nothing to do with ignoring all contracts its about knowing you are allowed to consent and deny certain contracts.

No its not. Because this is how it works in every day life. No one has ever forced me to get into a contract and never will. FOTL woo is about declaring you are free from such contracts whenever you feel like it by finding legalistic magic words.


and if you accept a contract you are too follow those rules. and governance is only a contract.

And round and round we go. Yep, government is only a contract. Don't consent? Fine, get out.

[JimBenArm]

I'm sure it all works out just fine. Right? They don't get their cars repossessed, foreclosed on, and credit ruined, right? The companies just go "Oh, he didn't enter into a contract! Well, then, I guess these papers he put these squiggly lines on don't mean anything! Oh, well, guess he outsmarted us!"

Dem Freeloaders is some funny peoples, dey is!

[LightinDarkness]

he hasnt had a successful thread, he still wont agree that representatives are only middlemen.

This is further proof that this guy really isn't reading anything and is having arguments with imaginary people.

For about the 10th time now I've explained to you and debunked you on this middle man stuff, but for the 11th time here we go again?

Who, EXACTLY, is the representative of Congress a middle man of?

This is how middle men work

Me --> Middle Men --> Someone Else

You think this is how government works:

Me --> Representative --> Government

Problem. There is no "government" I can go to. Its an idea, a institution.

Please get another FOTL propaganda point, this one is getting old.

[LightinDarkness]

I'm sure it all works out just fine. Right? They don't get their cars repossessed, foreclosed on, and credit ruined, right? The companies just go "Oh, he didn't enter into a contract! Well, then, I guess these papers he put these squiggly lines on don't mean anything! Oh, well, guess he outsmarted us!"

Dem Freeloaders is some funny peoples, dey is!

Yep, apparently when you tell a company that you don't consent to enter into a contract they just run for the hills! Dems the magic words, you know.

I have invited blue to show us how powerful FOTL is and that its really not woo by declaring he didn't enter into a contract with the forum and is free from the rules. If FOTL is real, the moderators will go running for the exit and quiver before him. I'm still waiting. Such a simple thing to do - that is, if FOTL is real...

[Bluekush623]

This is further proof that this guy really isn't reading anything and is having arguments with imaginary people.

For about the 10th time now I've explained to you and debunked you on this middle man stuff, but for the 11th time here we go again?

Who, EXACTLY, is the representative of Congress a middle man of?

This is how middle men work

Me --> Middle Men --> Someone Else

You think this is how government works:

Me --> Representative --> Government

Problem. There is no "government" I can go to. Its an idea, a institution.

Please get another FOTL propaganda point, this one is getting old.

hahahahahahaha. ill just let this stand all by itself to show your ignorance and utter lack of intelligence.

Light just stop, you keep digging yourself in a whole.

Answer is

me ---> middleman ----> services/product
me ---> representative = congressman/governor/president aka government ----> products services.

Just like religion

me ---> jesus ----> god

[Cl1mh4224rd]

I'm sure it all works out just fine. Right? They don't get their cars repossessed, foreclosed on, and credit ruined, right? The companies just go "Oh, he didn't enter into a contract! Well, then, I guess these papers he put these squiggly lines on don't mean anything! Oh, well, guess he outsmarted us!"

Yep, apparently when you tell a company that you don't consent to enter into a contract they just run for the hills! Dems the magic words, you know.


OK, that's the really stupid and bizarre part (and I honestly hope Bluekush623 can agree with this). The links in the OP seem to indicate that these people believe it's possible to enter into a contract (take out a loan on a car, for instance), and then later, after discovering this "freeman" wackiness, renege on their part of the contract.

It's like 1) discovering this "freeman" stuff is some magical reset button, and 2) they assume that the other party will continue to honor their part of the contract.

Total ********. Do you agree, Bluekush623?

[LightinDarkness]

hahahahahahaha. ill just let this stand all by itself to show your ignorance and utter lack of intelligence.

Light just stop, you keep digging yourself in a whole.

I'm glad you keep posting. If this is the posterboy for the FOTL woo movement, you are doing more good to show people how wrong it is by continuing to whine like you are in the above.


Answer is

me ---> middleman ----> services/product
me ---> representative = congressman/governor/president aka government ----> products services.

WRONG! And this is why FOTL woo is just that, woo. They don't even understand that the government is NOT simply a product and service provider.

Please tell me, who is the real person behind these products and services? After all, if we have a middle man then there must be a real end player who I can actually talk to. Who is it?


Just like religion

me ---> jesus ----> god

Thanks for providing an analogy illustrating why you are incorrect. If you follow Christianity then God is a sentient being. The government is not.

And you just debunked yourself...again.

[Cl1mh4224rd]

me ---> middleman ----> services/product


Your "middleman" here what is typically called a salesman. A middleman can only be such if he acts as an intermediary between two individuals, companies, organizations, etc.

Learn your words, my friend.

[Bluekush623]

Yep, apparently when you tell a company that you don't consent to enter into a contract they just run for the hills! Dems the magic words, you know.

I have invited blue to show us how powerful FOTL is and that its really not woo by declaring he didn't enter into a contract with the forum and is free from the rules. If FOTL is real, the moderators will go running for the exit and quiver before him. I'm still waiting. Such a simple thing to do - that is, if FOTL is real...

Edited for rule 12 ive already said if one agrees to a contract they must follow the rules(like i have done with this forum). just as we are allowed to not follow the rules if we dot agree to the contract.

your Edited for rule 12 is that just living on land you are giving your consent away, is this a lie so stop. YOU ARE BEING DISHONEST.

the united states is not the land its the society of the people who live on the land.
As you can see, insults that address the argument are allowed. Insults that are gratuitous are edited. Learn the difference.

[Bluekush623]

That's called a salesman.

A middleman can only be such if he acts as an intermediary between two individuals, companies, organizations, etc.

stop with the semanitcs.

we are talking about giving something away for someone else to give you something.

instead of just you personally doing whatever it is

[LightinDarkness]

dude your a complete idiot. ive already said if one agrees to a contract they must follow the rules(like i have done with this forum). just as we are allowed to not follow the rules if we dot agree to the contract.

Wrong for the 23982398423982398th time. You have been shown directly that this is direct opposite of what FOTL woo teaches, and you yourself at the beginning of this rambling rant fest you have going stated so. You said when you began trolling this thread that its OK to get out of a contract because you follow the woo that by signing a birth certificate or social security card it puts you under some sort of mystical contract and can get out of it. Now you've backed up and reversed yourself. Which is it?


your ASSumption is that just living on land you are giving your consent away, is this a lie so stop. YOU ARE BEING DISHONEST.

When blue says your being dishonest, what it really means is you've debunked him and he has nothing else to say.

The TRUTH is that by living in this society, which is the land that the United States governs, you are giving your consent. Don't like it? Move.


the united states is not the land its the society of the people who live on the land.

Wrong. The United States has jurisdiction over certain areas of land.

[Cl1mh4224rd]

we are talking about giving something away for someone else to give you something.


Then stop abusing the word "middleman". Pick up a dictionary and find the correct word, because "middleman" is not it. Using the correct words is absolutely necessary to effectively communicate your thoughts.

[Checkmite]

stop with the semanitcs.

we are talking about giving something away for someone else to give you something.

instead of just you personally doing whatever it is

For services provided by the government? This is like saying a tailor is the "middleman" between you and a spool of thread.

"Middleman" applies there's two other men, one on each side.

[Bluekush623]

I'm glad you keep posting. If this is the posterboy for the FOTL woo movement, you are doing more good to show people how wrong it is by continuing to whine like you are in the above.


im no poster boy since im not speaking for the FOTL movement.


WRONG! And this is why FOTL woo is just that, woo. They don't even understand that the government is NOT simply a product and service provider.

Then what is it? ANYTHING the government provides is either a product or service. from protection or clean water.


Please tell me, who is the real person behind these products and services? After all, if we have a middle man then there must be a real end player who I can actually talk to. Who is it?

The real person, is just any ordinary person whos in that society. The end player is what you get from the middleman.



Thanks for providing an analogy illustrating why you are incorrect. If you follow Christianity then God is a sentient being. The government is not.

And you just debunked yourself...again.

nobody is talking about whether or not government and god are equal, you always move the goal posts. the fact is that through jesus you find divinity: the product or service of that religion.

just like through government citizens receive incentives.

[LightinDarkness]

im no poster boy since im not speaking for the FOTL movement.



Then what is it? ANYTHING the government provides is either a product or service. from protection or clean water.



The real person, is just any ordinary person whos in that society. The end player is what you get from the middleman.




nobody is talking about whether or not government and god are equal, you always move the goal posts. the fact is that through jesus you find divinity: the product or service of that religion.

just like through government citizens receive incentives.

Oh my, blue is so far gone he just debunked himself.

This is getting to easy.

I mean, what else can I say? He just debunked himself by demonstrating he knows nothing about the law or what a middleman is.

Keep it up blue!

[Bluekush623]

Wrong for the 23982398423982398th time. You have been shown directly that this is direct opposite of what FOTL woo teaches, and you yourself at the beginning of this rambling rant fest you have going stated so. You said when you began trolling this thread that its OK to get out of a contract because you follow the woo that by signing a birth certificate or social security card it puts you under some sort of mystical contract and can get out of it. Now you've backed up and reversed yourself. Which is it?

Cmon go and quote me then..show exactly where i say this.

I said its ok to get out of contracts your parents signed when we were children and unconscious of what was being done in our name.

However if you have debts you most honor your agreement.

People who think they can disband debts are being dishonest like you.

You seem to be getting at everyone is an indentured servitude because someone called this piece of land theres 300 years ago.

Noone can be subject to something they didnt willingly sign or agree to.


When blue says your being dishonest, what it really means is you've debunked him and he has nothing else to say.

The TRUTH is that by living in this society, which is the land that the United States governs, you are giving your consent. Don't like it? Move.

No being dishonest is not being 100% truthful and cherry picking what you wish to discuss to prove your point.

LIVING ON EARTH DOES NOT SUBJECT ANYONE TO ANY RULES OF MAKE BELIEVE SOCIETIES UNLESS TO ACCEPT THOSE RULES.


Wrong. The United States has jurisdiction over certain areas of land.

No it has jurisdiction over the property it owns, the earth is not property of government.

[Bluekush623]

Then stop abusing the word "middleman". Pick up a dictionary and find the correct word, because "middleman" is not it. Using the correct words is absolutely necessary to effectively communicate your thoughts.

Instead of telling me to go find something you should tell me then what i should use since you wanted to give your opinion in the first place.

my definition is just fine.

[Bluekush623]

Oh my, blue is so far gone he just debunked himself.

This is getting to easy.

I mean, what else can I say? He just debunked himself by demonstrating he knows nothing about the law or what a middleman is.

Keep it up blue!

Ok then what is a middleman since you are all knowing.

You are the color blind person calling the color blue, red.

[LightinDarkness]

After days of blue going round and round and offering nothing different, I am going to use a new strategy. Where he says something that I or someone else have previously debunked in this thread, I will simply say so. I'm only going to respond to any new points. Although he hasn't had any since he started his hysterics here...

All the below has been debunked:

Cmon go and quote me then..show exactly where i say this.

I said its ok to get out of contracts your parents signed when we were children and unconscious of what was being done in our name.

However if you have debts you most honor your agreement.

People who think they can disband debts are being dishonest like you.

Noone can be subject to something they didnt willingly sign or agree to.



No being dishonest is not being 100% truthful and cherry picking what you wish to discuss to prove your point.

LIVING ON EARTH DOES NOT SUBJECT ANYONE TO ANY RULES OF MAKE BELIEVE SOCIETIES UNLESS TO ACCEPT THOSE RULES.



No it has jurisdiction over the property it owns, the earth is not property of government.

[Bluekush623]

For services provided by the government? This is like saying a tailor is the "middleman" between you and a spool of thread.

"Middleman" applies there's two other men, one on each side.

Middleman applies to being the man in the middle. In the middle of what is the question. I never said too other men.

[LightinDarkness]

All the below has been debunked:

Ok then what is a middleman since you are all knowing.

You are the color blind person calling the color blue, red.

[Cl1mh4224rd]

Instead of telling me to go find something you should tell me then what i should use since you wanted to give your opinion in the first place.


You've used the word before: "representative".

Craigslist is a middleman between you and another person. eBay is a middleman between you and another person (or company). Wal*Mart is a middleman between you and another company.

The water company is not a middleman between you and "receiving drinkable water".

That person you talk to from Dell is not a middleman, because he works for Dell. He is a representative.

my definition is just fine.


No. Just... no.

[Bluekush623]

After days of blue going round and round and offering nothing different, I am going to use a new strategy. Where he says something that I or someone else have previously debunked in this thread, I will simply say so. I'm only going to respond to any new points. Although he hasn't had any since he started his hysterics here...

All the below has been debunked:

Light you have not provided ONE piece of citied material this whole time.

You cannot prove that just by living on land you are subject to statutes and acts.

You are the one who has been debunked

[Bluekush623]

You've used the word before: "representative".

Craigslist is a middleman between you and another person. eBay is a middleman between you and another person (or company). Wal*Mart is a middleman between you and anohter company.

That person you talk to from Dell is not a middleman, because he works for Dell. He is a representative.




No. Just... no.

ive already said we contract with the government and then they contract with other people inside and outside of there own government. thats a middleman. period.

we give our power to others to do our bidding. thats a middleman no matter how you try and cut it.

stop with the bs semantics.

[LightinDarkness]

Light you have not provided ONE piece of citied material this whole time.

You cannot prove that just by living on land you are subject to statutes and acts.

You are the one who has been debunked

This is new. The FOTL, who has done nothing but insult me and every other poster who has debunked him and never sourced anything, declares that I have not done so.

Correct - you've been so easy to debunk that I have not needed to.

So here you go, the ultimate guide to debunking FOTL:
http://www.loc.gov/law/help/guide/federal.php

Debunked and dismissed. Please bring some new material.

[JimBenArm]

Again, I challenge you to put this to the test. Violate one of these acts or statutes that you say don't apply to you as a Freeloader, making sure to notify the authorities that you are doing so. The only thing I ask is to let me know when and where ahead of time. I just have to get it on video. America's Dumbest loves tapes like that.

Or is it all just words on an internet forum that you know are lies, and you're afraid the Magic WordsTM won't really work?

[Bluekush623]

This is new. The FOTL, who has done nothing but insult me and every other poster who has debunked him and never sourced anything, declares that I have not done so.

Correct - you've been so easy to debunk that I have not needed to.

So here you go, the ultimate guide to debunking FOTL:
http://www.loc.gov/law/help/guide/federal.php

Debunked and dismissed. Please bring some new material.

stop calling me a freeman on the land. i never claimed to be one.

i called you a dummy because you are one. you cant grasp the fact that representation only occurs with consent, and living on earth is not consent, thats coercion.

and dont post a guide to the law, provide a point by point debate.

[JimBenArm]

stop calling me a freeman on the land. i never claimed to be one.

i called you a dummy because you are one. you cant grasp the fact that representation only occurs with consent, and living on earth is not consent, thats coercion.

and dont post a guide to the law, provide a point by point debate.
So you did enter into contract with the US Government? Or are you just another slave, like me?

Please elaborate, oh dancing one! Sammy Davis, Jr. never tap danced like this!

[Cl1mh4224rd]

stop calling me a freeman on the land. i never claimed to be one.


You seem to be attempting to go "freeman on the JREF land", though...

dude your a complete idiot.
i called you a dummy because you are one.


Remember, by accepting the Membership Agreement at registration, you have contracted with this forum and are bound by its rules.

If you wish to renege on that contract, you are free to do so, but don't expect to retain the privilege of posting here.

[LightinDarkness]

stop calling me a freeman on the land. i never claimed to be one.

i called you a dummy because you are one. you cant grasp the fact that representation only occurs with consent, and living on earth is not consent, thats coercion.

and dont post a guide to the law, provide a point by point debate.

We've already debunked you point by point. And its not just me, its at least 5 other members of the forum:

Step 1: No one has stated or believes that you don't have the right not to consent to a government.

Step 2: If you don't consent to the government, thats fine. That means you no longer get to benefit from the government and the services I and everyone else pays for.

Step 3: As living anywhere in the United States means you WOULD BENEFIT from the government, you are free to move if you don't consent.

That's it. The end.

Next.

By the way, your insults just show how you've got nothing for evidence.

[JoeyDonuts]

What a crock of ****.

If you are born, and continue to exist inside the internationally recognized borders of the United States of America, or are naturalized as such - you are a citizen of the United States of America and subject to its laws. You are protected by its military and the police forces of its respective communities. You are also subject to the laws of whatever state/municipality you happen to live in. It doesn't matter that you lacked the sentience to "consent" to living here and being subject to the laws. (It does matter that you appear to continue to lack any sort of sentience.)

Don't like it? Expatriate.

I'm sure there are many countries out there that would love to have you not be subject to their laws either. Just make sure you stay away from the Middle East. You see, over here, you can safely spew all of your crackpottedness and the biggest danger you risk is having the appearance of a loon, and also getting your ass tossed in the pokey due to epic ignorance of the basic structure of the law.

Over there, you might lose an appendage or two for saying the things you do. Allah isn't nearly as forgiving as the U.S. Government.

[Bluekush623]

We've already debunked you point by point. And its not just me, its at least 5 other members of the forum:

Step 1: No one has stated or believes that you don't have the right not to consent to a government.

Step 2: If you don't consent to the government, thats fine. That means you no longer get to benefit from the government and the services I and everyone else pays for.

Step 3: As living anywhere in the United States means you WOULD BENEFIT from the government, you are free to move if you don't consent.

That's it. The end.

Next.

By the way, your insults just show how you've got nothing for evidence.

No you are wrong just living on a piece of land does not make one bound to the laws of one society(united states) thats exists on that piece of land.

this is the woo that government and misguided citizens believe.

just like this wasnt our land 300 years ago it still isnt our land today.

[JimBenArm]

You just can't make up your mind, can you? First, you say it's all our land, then you say it's not our land, then you say it's everyone's land, then it's no one's land.

Guess the Freeloader's Guide is a bit muddled on that point, huh?

[Bluekush623]

You just can't make up your mind, can you? First, you say it's all our land, then you say it's not our land, then you say it's everyone's land, then it's no one's land.

Guess the Freeloader's Guide is a bit muddled on that point, huh?

Its everyone land aka all of us, but not all of us in the sense of only 1 society or group of people, but in every living creature.

why dont we have cops arrest animals and other living things that break the rules on this land?

we may capture them but thats different.

[Travis]

Did you just equate an animals trespass to be equivalent to a human trespassing? Birds defecate on the lawn of city parks, do you defecate on the lawn at the same park?

[JoeyDonuts]

This guy might just be the greatest Stundie factory since ULTIMA1 almost single-handedly carried an entire month.

[Bluekush623]

Did you just equate an animals trespass to be equivalent to a human trespassing? Birds defecate on the lawn of city parks, do you defecate on the lawn at the same park?

No im making an argument that just because the united states society covers a certain land mass it doesnt make every living thing subject to its jurisdiction.

[JoeyDonuts]

No im making an argument that just because the united states society covers a certain land mass it doesnt make every living thing subject to its jurisdiction.

Sure does. Including you.

[RHolmes]

Blue,

Believe it or not, I have some sympathy with the idea that people should be able to refuse a State's services and in return, be released from the legal obligations of that State.

The thing is that I can't see any practical way that you can do this without emigrating, which will bring you under another set of laws

But let's suppose there's some tract of land in the US which the Government is willing to give to FOTLers. No public service available.

What then?

[Bluekush623]

Blue,

Believe it or not, I have some sympathy with the idea that people should be able to refuse a State's services and in return, be released from the legal obligations of that State.

you cant have sympathy unless you know its fact. nothing can be forced on someone, otherwise its slavery.


The thing is that I can't see any practical way that you can do this without emigrating, which will bring you under another set of laws .

no duh, as i said before the idea of somone having to leave a piece of land with invisible borders is ludicrous, they would get kicked off the planet. and no one can force anyone to do anything, unless if you are willing to call it slavery.


But let's suppose there's some tract of land in the US which the Government is willing to give to FOTLers. No public service available.

What then?

You mean no private service available.

[wackyvorlon]

you cant have sympathy unless you know its fact. nothing can be forced on someone, otherwise its slavery.


The US has some very serious people who would disagree with you. The US has authority over every living thing within it's borders because it says so. That is backed up by the force of law, a very large police force and an even larger military force.

[Bluekush623]

The US has some very serious people who would disagree with you. The US has authority over every living thing within it's borders because it says so. That is backed up by the force of law, a very large police force and an even larger military force.

so just say it, its slavery.

[wackyvorlon]

No man is sovereign. Even the most powerful people in the world have influences and controls forcing them to move this way or that.

[RHolmes]

I'm actually making an effort to be polite and to understand you here, Blue.

you cant have sympathy unless you know its fact. nothing can be forced on someone, otherwise its slavery.



I can have sympathy with any philosophical proposition I like, which is what your view is. My opinion is that, as long as you are accepting services which the State pays for, you are willingly participating in the social contract. I agree that you should not be forced to remain in that contract, but leaving it will mean your relinquishing any right to make use of services paid for by the State.

no duh, as i said before the idea of somone having to leave a piece of land with invisible borders is ludicrous, they would get kicked off the planet. and no one can force anyone to do anything, unless if you are willing to call it slavery.

Kicked off the planet? What?

I'm trying to look at your practical options and asking you to consider a hypothetical scenario.


You mean no private service available.


No, I mean no public services. No services paid for using taxpayers' money. If you want out of the social contract current in the US, you've got to stop using the service paid for by the US Government.

So, are you willing to go into this thought experiment? I'm not trying to trip you up.


P.S. If you haven't already, can I suggest that you read about what slavery was actually like in your country?

[Chaos]

so just say it, its slavery.

No it is not. You can leave the US any time you want, if you cannot bear the terrible burden. Slaves cannot do that. You can even takes your property with you. Slaves do not have property.

See the difference?