After you die what happens? [Archive]

yy2bggggs

2nd July 2009, 12:14 PM

I have a feeling the question is underspecified. But if I fill in the blanks the way the context seems to suggest, the question doesn't make sense.

The fact that souls do not exist cannot have any sort of "if so" type of effect on what happens after I die, that I can imagine, except for possibly happenings to the soul. But this suggests that the question in itself is flawed--you would then be asking what happens to your soul after you die if there is no soul.

But there wouldn't be a soul for things to happen to, right?

The straightforward answer, however, is that whatever things happen after I die are generally the same sort of things, albeit different particular things, that are happening now, before I'm dead.

maddog

2nd July 2009, 12:19 PM

All my friends gather round and pour a bottle of good bourbon on my ashes.

After passing it through themselves, first, of course. :D

godless dave

2nd July 2009, 12:20 PM

It has been stipulated that souls do not exist.

If so, then what do you think happens after you die?

Life goes on without me. I will no longer exist.

Gate2501

2nd July 2009, 12:23 PM

It has been stipulated that souls do not exist.

If so, then what do you think happens after you die?

Your question is framed in a way that suggests something happens to *you* after you die.

Can you not comprehend a simple finality to your consciousness? The answer would be that nothing happens as far as *you* are concerned. Why would you be able to experience a state of non-existence?

Your question is incoherent.

Achán hiNidráne

2nd July 2009, 12:47 PM

You rot. That's all. Nothing else.

elbe

2nd July 2009, 12:49 PM

I'm hoping to have my head placed on a pike and paraded down main street - as an example.

linusrichard

2nd July 2009, 12:58 PM

It has been stipulated that souls do not exist.

If so, then what do you think happens after you die?
Even if you don't stipulate that souls do not exist -- even if you stipulate that souls do exist, my answer is the same. Nothing "happens," life just ends. What do you think happens to the flame of a candle after you blow it out?

All my friends gather round and pour a bottle of good bourbon on my ashes.

After passing it through themselves, first, of course. :D

The bourbon, not the ashes, we may hope!

JohnG

2nd July 2009, 12:58 PM

realpaladin

2nd July 2009, 01:01 PM

Your kids will get the bill from the undertaker and Satan scratches his head as to why nobody ever shows up after they die...

Gate2501

2nd July 2009, 01:01 PM

My organs will be used to help another person (or persons) live...well, unless I die in some messy way like being eaten by a shark...in which case I'd be helping to keep the shark alive, so that's OK, too.

I am attempting to get as much mileage as I can out of my own organs before I die. The liver, for example.

HansMustermann

2nd July 2009, 01:03 PM

It has been stipulated that souls do not exist.

If so, then what do you think happens after you die?

Well, as soon as I figure out how to specify which science, I'm leaving my body to science. So far I'm aiming for sexology :p

themusicteacher

2nd July 2009, 01:10 PM

Does this line of questioning not prove that humans are, at their core, selfish? We prattle on with platitudes about our loved ones and such but what we're really concerned with is our own (im)mortality. It's quite stunning how overly concerned people are with getting into an afterlife while being equally unconcerned about being a good person and leaving behind a world worth living in. It's like those 20-something douche and douchette's who care more about getting into the hottest nightclub than they do about the fact that they're being gouged for a $20 entry fee plus a two-drink minimum on $15 martini's and $8 beers. Utter nonsense.

realpaladin

2nd July 2009, 01:13 PM

t's like those 20-something douche and douchette's who care more about getting into the hottest nightclub than they do about the fact that they're being gouged for a $20 entry fee plus a two-drink minimum on $15 martini's and $8 beers. Utter nonsense.
Only twenty bucks? Where?

Gate2501

2nd July 2009, 01:17 PM

Does this line of questioning not prove that humans are, at their core, selfish?

I think that every act I have ever undertaken in my life has been selfish in some way, or I wouldn't have done it in the first place.

Even the love that I feel for my own son, seems hard wired into my brain, with all manner of negative emotional consequences I would have to face were I to abandon him in any way.

Maybe I'm just terrible?

Gord_in_Toronto

2nd July 2009, 01:49 PM

I think that every act I have ever undertaken in my life has been selfish in some way, or I wouldn't have done it in the first place.

Even the love that I feel for my own son, seems hard wired into my brain, with all manner of negative emotional consequences I would have to face were I to abandon him in any way.

Maybe I'm just terrible?

I think it is actually called "being human". We have a few hundred million years of evolution to contend with.

Oh. The answer to the question posed in the OP -- "Nothing".

shadron

2nd July 2009, 02:03 PM

Well, as soon as I figure out how to specify which science, I'm leaving my body to science. So far I'm aiming for sexology :p

For many are called, but few are chosen.

AkuManiMani

2nd July 2009, 02:06 PM

After you die what happens?

You start to smell funny. >_>

slingblade

2nd July 2009, 02:11 PM

After I die, the universe goes on largely as if I had never existed. A few people will recall me, and a few of them will mourn for a while.

Other people will die, some will be born, and the rest will do whatever they're doing.

My body will be disposed of in some manner.

That part that was "me" will be no more and no less what it was before I'd been conceived.

That is my best guess. Since I'm not dead, I don't claim to know.

AkuManiMani

2nd July 2009, 02:14 PM

I think that every act I have ever undertaken in my life has been selfish in some way, or I wouldn't have done it in the first place.

Even the love that I feel for my own son, seems hard wired into my brain, with all manner of negative emotional consequences I would have to face were I to abandon him in any way.

Maybe I'm just terrible?

I think you got it backwards. You're unselfish because the thought of harm coming to another distresses you. If you were truly selfish you would have no adverse reaction to abandoning your child. The only truly selfish people are complete sociopaths -- they care only for their personal wellbeing.

Myriad

2nd July 2009, 02:25 PM

For a while we mourn.
A short prayer is said.
There's a stone to recall
The date of your birth.

No longer unborn,
Yet so far, not dead,
Interrupted ghosts all,
We inherit the earth.

Respectfully,
Myriad

TimCallahan

2nd July 2009, 02:29 PM

"The worms crawl in
the worms crawl out
the worms play pinocle
on your snout."
If the vault isn't really that secure.

Damn, I Ratant! You beat me to it! Although I was going to use:

You're all okay for about a week.
Then your casket begins to leak.

KingMerv00

2nd July 2009, 02:51 PM

You start to smell funny. >_>

Wait, are you saying I'm dead already? :confused:

AkuManiMani

2nd July 2009, 02:57 PM

Wait, are you saying I'm dead already? :confused:

Or UNDEAD?!?! :eek:

Monketey Ghost

2nd July 2009, 03:02 PM

I'll be dead and I don't care
Bury me with no underwear
Now and then, look under there
be sure to wash your taint

HeyLeroy

2nd July 2009, 03:03 PM

We do what Beethoven did when he died.

Decompose.

KingMerv00

2nd July 2009, 03:04 PM

If so, then what do you think happens after you die?

I reach equilibrium with the environment.

D'rok

2nd July 2009, 03:04 PM

We do what Beethoven did when he died.

Decompose.
I hate you. :p

jman19999

2nd July 2009, 10:22 PM

You no longer exist. It's just like before you were born, or sleeping forever. (A comforting thought actually!)

Jeff

Jimbo07

2nd July 2009, 10:44 PM

after I'm dead, it won't matter to me. It does while I'm alive. I hope that green burials will be more commonly available/legal. No sense telling kids that we return to a great cycle of nature, if somebody stuffs us full of foramaldehyde... :boggled:

Anyways, what would happen when I died in that case? I'd provide food for worms, fertilizer for the local soil, and if I just happen to be lucky (in life, not death), someone might remember me and that spot for a generation or two...

slingblade

3rd July 2009, 12:30 AM

after I'm dead, it won't matter to me. It does while I'm alive. I hope that green burials will be more commonly available/legal. No sense telling kids that we return to a great cycle of nature, if somebody stuffs us full of foramaldehyde... :boggled:

Someone better damned well stuff me full of formaldehyde, because I am NOT waking up in that box as the last shovelful of earth hits.

Yes. I am absolutely terrified of being buried alive. That all my blood will be drained and replaced with poison is a tremendous comfort. The only one I have.

Geezer

3rd July 2009, 02:57 AM

Someone better damned well stuff me full of formaldehyde, because I am NOT waking up in that box as the last shovelful of earth hits.

Yes. I am absolutely terrified of being buried alive. That all my blood will be drained and replaced with poison is a tremendous comfort. The only one I have.

Cremation, that way you can be certain you are dead.

3rd July 2009, 03:14 AM

After you die what happens?

dunno, but i think, nothing, the end, black screen. end of action, boring :(

but ill try to come back and tell you, once i have experiance with it :D

Bill Thompson

3rd July 2009, 03:31 AM

It has been stipulated that souls do not exist.

What? where? what? what?
I would like to read that!!

Do you mean soul or consciousness?
What if cousciousness exists and we confuse that with a soul?

slingblade

3rd July 2009, 04:30 AM

Cremation, that way you can be certain you are dead.

Nope, in that one, I wake up as the flames emerge.

slingblade

3rd July 2009, 04:32 AM

What? where? what? what?
I would like to read that!!

Here you go:

Souls don't exist.

Glad to be of service.

H3LL

3rd July 2009, 04:39 AM

Death and What Comes Next. (http://www.lspace.org/books/dawcn/dawcn-english.html)

.

GlennB

3rd July 2009, 04:44 AM

You no longer exist. It's just like before you were born, or sleeping forever. (A comforting thought actually!)

Jeff

Maybe more like having a general anaesthetic forever. Ever had one of those? A slice of time goes totally missing, as if you hadn't existed at all. Unlike sleep where you have some kind of awareness.
But yes, it was mentioned above that it's just like before you were conceived. Zip. Presumably. We'll find out if that's wrong, but we won't find out if it turns out to be right. :)

Dave Rogers

3rd July 2009, 04:48 AM

My wife will just have to figure out a new way to get things off the top shelf.

Dave

Belz...

3rd July 2009, 05:53 AM

what do you think happens after you die?

Decomposition, mainly.

Tricky

3rd July 2009, 08:05 AM

Cremation, that way you can be certain you are dead.

Reminds me of one of my favorite jokes.

Man (calling 911 on his sell phone): I don't know what to do. I was out hunting with my buddy Bill and he dropped dead of a heart attack!

911 Operator: Okay, stay calm. First, be sure he's dead.

Man: OK. (two gunshots are heard). Okay. I'm sure. What next?

Oliver

3rd July 2009, 08:11 AM

It has been stipulated that souls do not exist.

If so, then what do you think happens after you die?

The "Soul" will die instantly due to the missing oxygen. Which isn't a bad thing as long you manage to live a fulfilling life. Thus, Religion is a waste of time if you're hoping to get into a heaven/hell-kinda-place. Which would be silly to assume without evedince in the first place. Just like the easter bunny.

Undesired Walrus

3rd July 2009, 08:17 AM

After you die what happens?

dunno, but i think, nothing, the end, black screen.

A black screen would of course be a something, a fairly dull something, but something nonetheless.

I wish to be cremated when I die, as I worry something in your dead brain may retain some sense of 'something', like an as-yet undetected neuron that generates an awful half-life sense of existence.

Probably highly unlikely, but just to be on the safe side.

Belz...

3rd July 2009, 08:17 AM

Elizabeth I

3rd July 2009, 08:31 AM

I'm hoping for a New Orleans-style jazz funeral. Other than that, I have no expectations.

Femke

3rd July 2009, 11:28 AM

Ocelot

3rd July 2009, 11:46 AM

Only one way to be sure - ask a dead person.

Pardalis

3rd July 2009, 11:48 AM

Decomposition, mainly.

Or in more optimistic terms, you become a party for worms.

Pardalis

3rd July 2009, 11:49 AM

The "Soul" will die instantly due to the missing oxygen.

There's already a word for "brain".

Undesired Walrus

3rd July 2009, 12:10 PM

I thought what Oliver said was quite funny!

sinclairmcevoy

3rd July 2009, 12:19 PM

It'd be funnier if the operator said "Make sure he's dead."Or, " Are you sure he's dead? "

Eskarina

3rd July 2009, 12:27 PM

"Here lies an atheist
All dressed up
And no place to go"

HeyLeroy

3rd July 2009, 12:49 PM

I hate you. :p

:D Aww, you're just sayin' that.

Jorghnassen

3rd July 2009, 01:30 PM

It depends on the person and the circumstances...

JohnG

3rd July 2009, 02:28 PM

slingblade

3rd July 2009, 07:42 PM

Do some people stuff dead people full of formaldehyde? :jaw-dropp
I've never seen that before. Where do they do that?

Mortuaries. Didn't you get that from us talking about being dead and buried?

Formaldehyde-based solutions are also used in embalming to disinfect and temporarily preserve human and animal remains. It is the ability of formaldehyde to fix the tissue that produces the tell-tale firmness of flesh in an embalmed body.

fromdownunder

3rd July 2009, 07:56 PM

I am going to be cremated, and what's left of me is going to take a sea voyage. My atoms (at least the ones I am using when I die) will turn up here and there until eventually the universe dies a heat death a few trillion years from now. After that, who knows?

Norm

Tricky

3rd July 2009, 07:59 PM

Reminds me of one of my favorite jokes.

Man (calling 911 on his sell phone): I don't know what to do. I was out hunting with my buddy Bill and he dropped dead of a heart attack!

911 Operator: Okay, stay calm. First, be sure he's dead.

Man: OK. (two gunshots are heard). Okay. I'm sure. What next?

It'd be funnier if the operator said "Make sure he's dead."

Or, " Are you sure he's dead? "

That joke was deemed "the funniest joke ever told" a couple of years back by a scientist studying humo(u)r and can apparently be traced back to Spike Milligan.
Okay, I could have worded it better. I was relying on memory, and my brain's a pretty unreliable instrument. But thank you all for being kind and not mentioning that I don't even know how to spell "cell phone".

Sheesh, things are already going dark.:D

kurious_kathy

4th July 2009, 02:01 AM

Your question is framed in a way that suggests something happens to *you* after you die.

Can you not comprehend a simple finality to your consciousness? The answer would be that nothing happens as far as *you* are concerned. Why would you be able to experience a state of non-existence?

Your question is incoherent.

Sorry gate but you are deluding yourself if you believe that. Your soul will go on forever either present with the Lord in heaven, or to the other bad place (if you deny Jesus.)

Geezer

4th July 2009, 02:06 AM

Geezer

4th July 2009, 02:15 AM

Sorry gate but you are deluding yourself if you believe that. Your soul will go on forever either present with the Lord in heaven, or to the other bad place (if you deny Jesus.)

Sorry KK, you will be fertilizer just as everyone else who ever lived/will live.
But by all means do keep up with the meaningless rituals and what not if that's what it takes to comfort you, if not I have an old teddy bear I can send you.
Mr Teddy kept me feeling safe through my childhood (I was scared of the dark for a long time) perhaps it's not too late for you and unlike zombie Jesus you can hug him.

nelsondogg

4th July 2009, 03:23 AM

I don't know about all of you, but I'm coming back as a Zombie.

Oliver

4th July 2009, 03:27 AM

Only one way to be sure - ask a dead person.

I don't know, the dead persons way of argumentation concerning the topic at hand might be devastating to believers. :"/

Femke

4th July 2009, 03:51 AM

Mortuaries. Didn't you get that from us talking about being dead and buried?

No sorry, my bad. I meant in what parts of the world. I only thought you put tissues and animals in formaldehyde to put them on display. I never thought humans were formaldehyded. With the few dead in the family I've seen, the undertaker did not use formaldehyde to preserve them, only a refridgerated coffin. In Europe it does not seem common practice, as a quick google search showed. Is it in the US?

Oliver

4th July 2009, 03:56 AM

There's already a word for "brain".

Yes, and there is a scientific [psychological] explanation for people assuming the brain and soul are two different things as well.

JetLeg

4th July 2009, 04:43 AM

It has been stipulated that souls do not exist.

If so, then what do you think happens after you die?

Your whole life passes before your eyes. You feel deep shame for the bad things you did. If you were a very bad person, then it will be "hell" for you, and it is the only sense in which "hell" exists.

After this happens both believers and non-believers go into heaven. In heaven you meet your relatives and friends that died. You have the time to pursue your hobbies and do whatever you want to do.

Unfortunately, this only lasts for 10 years and 2 days from the time that you arrive to heaven. After it, you are tied to a chair, and forced to watch porn. FOREVER.

Elizabeth I

4th July 2009, 10:52 AM

Sorry gate but you are deluding yourself if you believe that. Your soul will go on forever either present with the Lord in heaven, or to the other bad place (if you deny Jesus.)

Evidence for existence of a soul?

dlorde

4th July 2009, 10:59 AM

Some of us amuse ourselves contemplating the sense in which we will live on in the fading memories of others, and in the effects we will have had on the world.

Helps pass the time until it happens...

Pardalis

4th July 2009, 11:14 AM

Yes, and there is a scientific [psychological] explanation for people assuming the brain and soul are two different things as well.

That people want there to be doesn't mean there is.

Pixel42

4th July 2009, 11:32 AM

http://www.academicearth.org/courses/death

shadron

4th July 2009, 04:06 PM

It's ........ The Tingler!

Paulhoff

5th July 2009, 03:57 PM

Sorry gate but you are deluding yourself if you believe that. Your soul will go on forever either present with the Lord in heaven, or to the other bad place (if you deny Jesus.)
What a bore. :D

And the heaven thing too.

I feel sorry for you KK, having a so-called that is so limited, that it only has one way to it.

Paul

:) :) :)

XxDeadlyNinjaxX

5th July 2009, 09:45 PM

Well, what happens when you sleep and you do not dream? It cannot be explained except for saying that nothing happens.

Alex C

5th July 2009, 10:33 PM

Bob Klase

6th July 2009, 09:34 AM

It has been stipulated that souls do not exist.

If so, then what do you think happens after you die?

What do you think happens to dogs, fish and birds when they die?

Psi Baba

6th July 2009, 10:07 AM

I want to make sure that I die penniless. Of course timing is everything.

6th July 2009, 10:23 AM

A black screen would of course be a something, a fairly dull something, but something nonetheless.

I wish to be cremated when I die, as I worry something in your dead brain may retain some sense of 'something', like an as-yet undetected neuron that generates an awful half-life sense of existence.

Probably highly unlikely, but just to be on the safe side.

bah, never thought abouth that one.
thats scary stuff.....
how long does it take untill your brains are burned inside a death body inside a crematorium? maybe i prefer some worms, still unsure :)

wuschel

6th July 2009, 12:01 PM

pennilessInitially, I misread that. But - surprisingly - the overall statement still made kinda sense...

BoogieWoogieWookie

6th July 2009, 12:07 PM

I remember a sci-fi story I read a few years back ( I can't remember the title) about a hapless astronaut that crash-landed on Pluto. Rather that face asphyxiation as his air supply ran out he decided that exposure to the extreme cold of Pluto's surface would be a better, comparatively painless way to go.

He thus walked out of the airlock without his space suit and within a few seconds he was frozen, Standing there like a frozen statue, he discovers he is still aware. The extreme cold has turned the connections in his brain to superconductors allowing the electrical currents to continue flowing, perhaps for a long, long time.

Scary thought, huh?

6th July 2009, 12:14 PM

ToddH

6th July 2009, 12:26 PM

Lord Emsworth

6th July 2009, 04:41 PM

Would there still be electrical currents with a frozen brain?

supercorgi

6th July 2009, 04:54 PM

It was Wait It Out by Larry Niven I believe.

You are correct! I just recently reread my Niven short story collection.

kurious_kathy

6th July 2009, 11:13 PM

Evidence for existence of a soul?

You mean besides what our souls consist of," mind, emotions, and will?"

Do you have any proof that the soul doesn't exist?

Ocelot

7th July 2009, 12:36 AM

You mean besides what our souls consist of," mind, emotions, and will?"

Do you have any proof that the soul doesn't exist?

Not likely without a better definition than "It consists of the mind, emotions (state of mind) and will (the effect of a mind)" whihc simply boils down to equating soul with mind.

RandFan

7th July 2009, 12:47 AM

Paulhoff

7th July 2009, 06:35 AM

You mean besides what our souls consist of," mind, emotions, and will?"

Do you have any proof that the soul doesn't exist?
You say something exist, you have to prove it, we don't have to disprove it. Oh, and do animals have this so-called soul too.

Paul

:) :) :)

HansMustermann

7th July 2009, 07:31 AM

Do you have any proof that the soul doesn't exist?

I know others will remind you of "burden of proof", but I'm actually glad you think that way. Let me introduce you to my cult of my invisible cat, the Invisible Pink Unicorn, and the Super-Secret Squirrel. I trust you'll stay consistent with that position and either start believing in them, or provide sufficient proof that they don't exist ;)

Oliver

7th July 2009, 07:42 AM

Would there still be electrical currents with a frozen brain?

The frozen water within the body would destroy all cells and thus, kill the Austronaut and his/her brain-functions either way.

TimCallahan

7th July 2009, 10:37 AM

You mean besides what our souls consist of," mind, emotions, and will?"

Do you have any proof that the soul doesn't exist?

No, and we dont have any proof that sea serpents don't exist, either. Here's how it works, Kathy: You can't prove a negative. The burden of proof is on the person making the positive assertion.

This is one of the main reasons for presumption of innocence. In most cases you wouldn't be able to prove you didn't commit a crime of which you might be accused. The burden of proof is on the state to demonstrate beyond a reasonable doubt that you did commit the crime, not on you to prove you didn't.

Likewise, the burden of proof is on you when you assert there is such a thing as a soul. I, for one, would be delighted if there were such a thing as a soul, and we did keep on existing after bodily death. So far, I haven't heard any credible evidence for the existence of the soul. So, do you have such evidence?

Sunray Breaker

7th July 2009, 12:04 PM

I've always figured it'd be like going to sleep, forever. Except when the brain dies, then all the memories that make up "you", will simply go away...Like erasing a hard drive. At which point, you're likely too dead to worry about what's happening to "you", because the closest thing to "a soul" would be the construct of memories and behavioral patterns that one uses to represent their present selves. Once the mind that makes up that which maintains the present self stops working, so does the sense of self, afterlife, etc.

Death can only be truly explained by a very fatal and biased point of view, I suppose.

But I'm alive...So what do I know?

maddog

7th July 2009, 02:24 PM

Oh dude you don't even wanna know what happens after I die. I got this sick little dead mans trigger setup but I don't wanna reveal too much since it's a surprise. Lets just say it involves alotta yeast, kellogs coco pops and 7 tons of nuclear material.

If this intrigues anyone, I highly recommend the book "Daemon" by Daniel Suarez. It's not yeast, coco pops, and nuclear material, but it IS a fascinating "dead man's trigger". Great book.

galla

7th July 2009, 03:12 PM

Your soul will go on forever either present with the Lord in heaven, or to the other bad place (if you deny Jesus.)

That's a mean thing to say.

KingMerv00

7th July 2009, 03:34 PM

You mean besides what our souls consist of," mind, emotions, and will?"

How can you differentiate between the functions of a soul and the functions of a brain?

galla

7th July 2009, 04:13 PM

Defining the soul as "mind, emotions, and will" doesn't say anything about whether it persists after death. These three things are well studied by science and are not considered to be immortal or anything else out of the ordinary.

billydkid

7th July 2009, 04:35 PM

It has been stipulated that souls do not exist.

If so, then what do you think happens after you die?
Happens to what?

dlorde

7th July 2009, 05:04 PM

Would there still be electrical currents with a frozen brain?
Unfortunately the brain doesn't work on electrical currents, but on membrane depolarization and chemical diffusion, so it would just freeze.

temporalillusion

7th July 2009, 05:10 PM

After you post a thread and don't return to it what happens?

TimCallahan

8th July 2009, 12:39 AM

Okay, it seems that Shakespeare had it down as to what happens after your die (Hamlet, Act IV, Scene 3):

KING CLAUDIUS

Now, Hamlet, where's Polonius?

HAMLET

At supper.

KING CLAUDIUS

At supper! where?

HAMLET

Not where he eats, but where he is eaten: a certain
convocation of politic worms are e'en at him. Your
worm is your only emperor for diet: we fat all
creatures else to fat us, and we fat ourselves for
maggots: your fat king and your lean beggar is but
variable service, two dishes, but to one table:
that's the end.

KING CLAUDIUS

Alas, alas!

HAMLET

A man may fish with the worm that hath eat of a
king, and eat of the fish that hath fed of that worm.

KING CLAUDIUS

What dost you mean by this?

HAMLET

Nothing but to show you how a king may go a
progress through the guts of a beggar.

yy2bggggs

8th July 2009, 01:04 AM

Sorry gate but you are deluding yourself if you believe that. Your soul will go on forever either present with the Lord in heaven, or to the other bad place (if you deny Jesus.)
American Heritage Dictionary, 4th edition:
delude
tr. v.
1. To deceive the mind or judgment of: fraudulent adds that delude consumers into sending in money. See synonyms at deceive.

deceive
v.tr.
1. To cause to believe that which is not true; mislead.

So, the act of deluding places more emphasis on trying to get someone to believe something than on whether or not the thing is true?

TimCallahan

8th July 2009, 11:53 AM

Well, Kathy, we're still waiting for you to present evidence for the exisence of a soul.

megaresp

8th July 2009, 01:52 PM

...what do you think happens after you die?
Pretty much the same thing that happened before and during that period of time when my conscious mind existed.

megaresp

8th July 2009, 01:59 PM

Sorry gate but you are deluding yourself if you believe that. Your soul will go on forever either present with the Lord in heaven, or to the other bad place (if you deny Jesus.)
Yeah, Gate is the deluded one :rolleyes:

If the soul existed, we'd have found it by now. We haven't, and it doesn't.

According to you, the soul goes either to 'heaven', or 'the other bad place'. So either way, our souls are headed to a bad place :D

As for Jesus, I make it 2,000 years and counting. Not even my wife takes that long to get ready. Of course, unlike Jesus, my wife hasn't been dead for 2,000 years and can be shown to actually exist. So she has an unfair advantage.

kurious_kathy

8th July 2009, 04:01 PM

Well, Kathy, we're still waiting for you to present evidence for the exisence of a soul.

One second after you die you will know just how real your soul is. I myself do not question the matter of soul because I believe God! Jesus is the creator of life so he does indeed define it. If I were you I would start listening to those letters in red in the Bible.

galla

8th July 2009, 04:03 PM

I myself do not question the matter of soul because I believe God!

Perhaps it's more accurate to say you believe a book claiming to be divine, and you believe your own hopeful wishes that it's true.

If I were you I would start listening to those letters in red in the Bible.

Or else what?

Paulhoff

8th July 2009, 04:25 PM

One second after you die you will know just how real your soul is. I myself do not question the matter of soul because I believe God! Jesus is the creator of life so he does indeed define it. If I were you I would start listening to those letters in red in the Bible.
HELLO, belief does not make it true. Some people believe that rainbows are a sign from your so-called god to not make the so-called great flood again. That doesn't make it so KK.

And a so-called god would drown animals like that, that isn't what a so-called god would do, that is what a child would do, or a madman.

And do animals have a so-called soul too, or what did they do to your so-called god to piss it off.

Paul

:) :) :)

dlorde

8th July 2009, 06:08 PM

Okay, it seems that Shakespeare had it down as to what happens after your die (Hamlet, Act IV, Scene 3): <genius>
Excellent! What an extraordinary man he was... A prime example of what lives on after physical death.

TimCallahan

8th July 2009, 08:34 PM

Myriad

8th July 2009, 10:10 PM

I'd certainly like to believe that my emotions, will, experience, and awareness will survive the death of my brain and body.

However, the fact that any doctor with a syringe full of the right chemicals can make my emotions, will, experience, and awareness disappear for significant periods of time calls this into question.

If the continuation of my soul will be immediately obvious to me one second after I die, why is it not even more obvious to me one second after the anaesthesiologist puts me under? If my awareness can survive the complete destruction of my brain, how can putting some chemicals (that don't even do any long-term damage) into my brain make my awareness stop?

Respectfully,
Myriad

yy2bggggs

8th July 2009, 11:24 PM

One second after you die you will know just how real your soul is.
What a waste... that's way too long to wait. You have an entire untortured second there. Are you sure you don't want to move this realization to zero seconds after death?

It's just plain inefficient to have an entire second worth of possible torture situated in such a way that it requires arbitrary belief as opposed to convincing evidence to buy into. That's an entire second of infinite torture you could be using to add the impotent emotional convincingness to your story.

Just think--that one extra second of unproveable infinite torture could very well be the thing that tips the decision into believing this thing about which the belief is more important than truth. And since the belief is more important than the truth, and that second can't possibly be used to deny the belief evidentially (which would be the only reason to leave that second out), why waste the second?

So please, KK, reconsider. Let's bring that second down to zero. Let's claim that immediately after death, he'll know that he has a soul, when he wakes up in hell.

Because that would be more believe-able!

8th July 2009, 11:54 PM

Ocelot

9th July 2009, 04:35 AM

Seren_

9th July 2009, 04:55 AM

One second after you die you will know just how real your soul is.

Aren't you supposed to stay dead until Resurrection day ?

I always assumed that you had to stay dead until the return of Jesus or at least judgement day.

What is the point of going to Heaven before Judgement Day ?

So even if you are a firm believer and "saved", you will stay dead for sometimes. You'll go to Heaven only once you've been judged.

Edit : Apparently I am confused you can go directly to Hell / Heaven after death. Then what is the point of the Last Judgement ?

I am really confused about that whole afterlife business. Can anyone shed some light ?

galla

9th July 2009, 09:25 AM

I am really confused about that whole afterlife business. Can anyone shed some light ?

Don't forget, the writer of Revelation was on a magic mushroom trip so you can't expect it to make too much sense. Literalist Christians today are in the unenviable position of having to sort out the mess.

kurious_kathy

9th July 2009, 02:40 PM

How can you differentiate between the functions of a soul and the functions of a brain?

The same way I differentiate how someones theology affects their salvation.

kurious_kathy

9th July 2009, 02:49 PM

Hmmm... just had a look in the Bible I bought at our local used book store. The only red writing was inside the front cover...

So apparently I have to listen to 'Used $1".

Not all Bibles are red letter edition, but you know what they represent don't you? All Jesus words are in red and I myself want to know them by heart!

And now because of Jesus I have hope that when I die I will be present with the Lord forever! Why wouldn't anyone want that?

Paulhoff

9th July 2009, 02:53 PM

Not all Bibles are red letter edition, but you know what they represent don't you? All Jesus words are in red and I myself want to know them by heart!

And now because of Jesus I now have hope that when I die I will be present with the Lord forever! Now why wouldn't anyone want that?
I want a Red Letter Harry Potter book.......

Look KK, it is nice for you that you believe in a magical man and all, that still doesn't make him real. The nice thing about dead people is that they don't mess up, can't make mistakes, so they can be what you what they to be.

Paul

:) :) :)

9th July 2009, 02:54 PM

Not all Bibles are red letter edition, but you know what they represent don't you? All Jesus words are in red and I myself want to know them by heart!

Except Jesus didn't write anything. Technically, they aren't necessarily Jesus' words.

And now because of Jesus I have hope that when I die I will be present with the Lord forever! Why wouldn't anyone want that?

1) The Lord is a sadistic bastard who first creates man and then punishes man for acting the way he was created to act.

2) There have to be more interesting ways to spend eternity than sitting around with a sadistic bastard.

3) Some of us don't like the idea of being mindless drones absorbed into the creator's essence like you seem to like.

4)...

Aw, heck, Kathy - why don't you tell me why anyone WOULD want that?

galla

9th July 2009, 02:55 PM

And now because of Jesus I have hope that when I die I will be present with the Lord forever! Why wouldn't anyone want that?

If it's as good as you claim it is, of course plenty of us would want that. But firstly, some of us just don't think God or Jesus were swell guys so spending eternity in their presence isn't our idea of fun; and secondly, wanting or hoping for something doesn't make it true.

Can I ask - do you only "have hope" (your words) of being present with the Lord forever, or do you know for sure?

kurious_kathy

9th July 2009, 06:51 PM

If it's as good as you claim it is, of course plenty of us would want that. But firstly, some of us just don't think God or Jesus were swell guys so spending eternity in their presence isn't our idea of fun; and secondly, wanting or hoping for something doesn't make it true.

Can I ask - do you only "have hope" (your words) of being present with the Lord forever, or do you know for sure?

Both. I have hope in the Lord but he has also revealed himself to me in ways I can not even begin to tell you about. I know he is good for his promises and we can trust in his word to be true.

Jesus made us many promises as believers and if we give our life to him he promises to give it back to us, forever. "All who seek to lose their lives shall gain it." All we need to do is follow him and trust him.

I use to fear death a lot and now I have peace that when my time comes I am actually going on to a better place. All of you can have this hope too if you will turn to Jesus and receive him as Lord!

kurious_kathy

9th July 2009, 07:04 PM

Aren't you supposed to stay dead until Resurrection day ?

I always assumed that you had to stay dead until the return of Jesus or at least judgement day.

What is the point of going to Heaven before Judgement Day ?

So even if you are a firm believer and "saved", you will stay dead for sometimes. You'll go to Heaven only once you've been judged.

Edit : Apparently I am confused you can go directly to Hell / Heaven after death. Then what is the point of the Last Judgement ?

I am really confused about that whole afterlife business. Can anyone shed some light ?

Seren the Bible teaches us that all who are in Christ will be present with the Lord once they die. But we will not receive our redeemed bodies until later.

All who die outside of Christ will go the sheol where they await judgement.

Believers do not go to the great white throne like unbelievers. Believers go before Christ to give account for our lives where our place in eternity will be determined. But those who are not forgiven by Christ will be judged for their sins and unfortunately they will spend an eternity suffering for them. Does this help your understanding a bit?

gentlehorse

9th July 2009, 07:14 PM

All of you can have this hope too if you will turn to Jesus and receive him as Lord!

Wouldn't god have have known from the beginning who would receive Jesus and who wouldn't? It kind of goes hand-in-hand with being all-knowing, ever present, and all-powerful, doesn't it?

Monster Machine

9th July 2009, 07:25 PM

The same way I differentiate how someones theology affects their salvation.

I thought each denomination believes they were the RIGHT one? I guess not? And no offense, Kathy, but you judging the salvation of others is rich considering your own actions (read any good books recommended by Hokulele lately?)

Both. I have hope in the Lord but he has also revealed himself to me in ways I can not even begin to tell you about.

I am shocked you're passing on an opportunity to lie witness to a new recruit.

Jesus made us many promises as believers and

<yak yak blah dee blah-blah>

I use to fear death a lot and now I have peace that when my time comes I am actually going on to a better place. All of you can have this hope too if you will turn to Jesus and receive him as Lord!

How do you know? Every denomination says they're the RIGHT one. Why would we have different denominations if they all believed the same thing?

Seren the Bible teaches us that all who are in Christ will be present with the Lord once they die. But we will not receive our redeemed bodies until later.

Bible reference please.

All who die outside of Christ will go the sheol where they await judgement.

Bible reference please.

Believers do not go to the great white throne like unbelievers. Believers go before Christ to give account for our lives where our place in eternity will be determined. But those who are not forgiven by Christ will be judged for their sins and unfortunately they will spend an eternity suffering for them. Does this help your understanding a bit?

Bible reference please.

Kathy, how about instead of regurgitating the your denomination's party line, you give some references to back up your claims from your bible?

Monster

galla

9th July 2009, 07:40 PM

Both. I have hope in the Lord but he has also revealed himself to me in ways I can not even begin to tell you about. I know he is good for his promises and we can trust in his word to be true.

Then why use the word "hope"? Hope means you're not sure. Why not say: "And now because of Jesus I know that when I die I will be present with the Lord forever!"

All of you can have this hope too if you will turn to Jesus and receive him as Lord!

Again, why use the word "hope"? I can't figure out if you're sure of your salvation or if you're just hoping for the best. This is not at all uncommon in the Christians I know or knew - many are "hoping" but aren't "sure". Which begs the question: Why didn't Jesus make himself clearer about how to assure one's salvation?

fromdownunder

10th July 2009, 12:38 AM

I use to fear death a lot and now I have peace that when my time comes I am actually going on to a better place. All of you can have this hope too if you will turn to Jesus and receive him as Lord!

So you have a fear of death so bad that you have built an immortality myth for yourself.

Why not simply ask yourself why you are scared of being dead (after all, in a 13.7 Billion year old universe, you are not exactly Life Central, and life will certainly go on without you. Maybe if you cofront your personal "death demon" you will grow up enough to be able to live in the real world, and not a fantasy "I am so important I will be around forever" world.

Or is that actually it? That your ego is so great that you really think that the Universe revolves around you? Kathy, here is reality - like the rest of us you will die and turn into worm food, or be cremated and possibly help roses grow, or feed fish.

Either of these things helps other life continue. One cheery thought is that the atoms that make you up will be around for a really, really long time. You just won't be around to share them. Like the rest of us you will be dead, and your conciousness snuffed out forever.

Norm

kurious_kathy

10th July 2009, 01:21 AM

I thought each denomination believes they were the RIGHT one? I guess not? And no offense, Kathy, but you judging the salvation of others is rich considering your own actions (read any good books recommended by Hokulele lately?)

I am shocked you're passing on an opportunity to lie witness to a new recruit.

How do you know? Every denomination says they're the RIGHT one. Why would we have different denominations if they all believed the same thing?

Bible reference please.

Bible reference please.

Bible reference please.

Kathy, how about instead of regurgitating the your denomination's party line, you give some references to back up your claims from your bible?

Monster

Monster I am a non denominational Christian for a reason, Jesus said one thing is needed for us to be saved, "We must be born again!" Many denominations do not preach this so I am opposed to those that are not sharing the whole or true gospel message.

And if I post scripture references to back up my claims many of the jref mods get on my case and take them off so as a rule I do not often do that. I can try if you want me to but it seems the moderators really dislike it when I posts scripture on threads.

As for Holulele's books, I have chosen not to take anymore of her challenges but I am wanting to meet her when I come to visit Maui on my vacation. She said she is willing but we shall see?

Ducky

10th July 2009, 01:41 AM

Monster I am a non denominational Christian for a reason, Jesus said one thing is needed for us to be saved, "We must be born again!" Many denominations do not preach this so I am opposed to those that are not sharing the whole or true gospel message.

And if I post scripture references to back up my claims many of the jref mods get on my case and take them off so as a rule I do not often do that. I can try if you want me to but it seems the moderators really dislike it when I posts scripture on threads.

As for Holulele's books, I have chosen not to take anymore of her challenges but I am wanting to meet her when I come to visit Maui on my vacation. She said she is willing but we shall see?

Oh she'd love to meet you. Often she and I discuss how to get more people into bed with our spouses, but people just don't swing anymore. You'd have a great time!

Hokulele

10th July 2009, 02:32 AM

kurious_kathy

10th July 2009, 03:08 AM

kurious kathy, I did respond to your PM and would be happy to meet up at one of the local beach parks when you are on island. Let me know via PM when you have a better idea of your schedule, and we can arrange something convenient.

Don't mind Ducky, he is just jealous.

Okay, Thanks it will be great to meet you. I will get in touch when we get there and we can go from there. The Island is so beautiful I can't wait to visit again. This will be my 4th or 5th time on Maui.

Hey do you happen to know a musician friend we met there several years back named Harris? If so is he still living on Maui? I know he use to travel to the mainland a lot for gigs but we lost touch with him years ago. I was just wondering if he was still around Lahiana, he was always there cruising around on his bike?

And now that I was off topic, how do we go back to that? Sometimes it is not easy for me to even want to think about dying, but I do look forward to the afterlife someday. For now I intend to live my life the best I can and hopefully God will be glorified. I look forward to making new friends and having more adventures.

Ocelot

10th July 2009, 05:57 AM

Not all Bibles are red letter edition, but you know what they represent don't you? All Jesus words are in red and I myself want to know them by heart!

Hi Kathy,

Just to let you know that I've this very moment, learnt something from you that I didn't previously know.

It's just as shame that this is so suprising, it's worthy of comment.

temporalillusion

10th July 2009, 08:09 AM

Monster I am a non denominational Christian for a reason, Jesus said one thing is needed for us to be saved, "We must be born again!" Many denominations do not preach this so I am opposed to those that are not sharing the whole or true gospel message.

Actually the gospels have a lot more to say about salvation than just being born again.. but rather than the whole message of all the gospels you seem to be picking and choosing the one that suits you, or combining all the gospels into one single megagospel and making it say things none of the originals do.

So you are in fact guilty of that which you accuse others of.

galla

10th July 2009, 09:55 AM

Monster I am a non denominational Christian for a reason, Jesus said one thing is needed for us to be saved, "We must be born again!"

Jesus said a lot more than that about what's needed for us to be saved. Add in some Paul and the situation gets even more fuzzy. Why do you think the different denominations, including non-denominational, each emphasize a different thing? It's because they all cherrypick. And there are so many cherries...

Monster Machine

10th July 2009, 10:10 AM

Monster I am a non denominational Christian for a reason, Jesus said one thing is needed for us to be saved, "We must be born again!" Many denominations do not preach this so I am opposed to those that are not sharing the whole or true gospel message.

Which ones?

And if I post scripture references to back up my claims many of the jref mods get on my case and take them off so as a rule I do not often do that. I can try if you want me to but it seems the moderators really dislike it when I posts scripture on threads.

Mods - is this true?

As for Holulele's books, I have chosen not to take anymore of her challenges but I am wanting to meet her when I come to visit Maui on my vacation. She said she is willing but we shall see?

Sounds like fun.

Monster

TimCallahan

10th July 2009, 11:32 AM

Seren the Bible teaches us that all who are in Christ will be present with the Lord once they die. But we will not receive our redeemed bodies until later.

All who die outside of Christ will go the sheol where they await judgement.

Believers do not go to the great white throne like unbelievers. Believers go before Christ to give account for our lives where our place in eternity will be determined. But those who are not forgiven by Christ will be judged for their sins and unfortunately they will spend an eternity suffering for them. Does this help your understanding a bit?

Kathy,

Here are a numbr of points where many of us who do not believe have problems with your scenario: As already noted in this thread, wouldn't God, being omniscient, know who would and would not accept Jesus? And wouldn't this be something in our very make-up. I can't will myself to believe something I don't believe. So we must say that God would have made some people as unbelievers (see Romans 9, the vessels o wrath).

Another problem is this: God supposedly wants us to beieve in him, then witholds evidence of his existence, then punishes those who don't believe - eternally! I know that the justification of this is supposedly a test of faith, that if he revealed himself to us directly everyone would believe. However, the same people who assert this usually believe in the literal truth of the miracles of Exodus. Thus, they would have to believe that the Israelites walked across the bottom of the Red Sea dry-shod, while its waters towered over them on either side. Yet they still didn't believe. Ergo, even if God did reveal himself, according to Exodus, some still wouldn't believe. I don't know about you, but have yet to witness a bona fide miracle.

So, to sum up: God loves us all and wants all to come to salvation, but he made some of us as unbelievers (the vessels of wrath of Romans 9). He also expects us to believe in him, but he hides from us. Then, when we fail to accept him and Jesus, even though we do so because we were constitutionally created by Him to be that way, and even though he has hidden himself from us; he damns us to hell for eternity. Why wouldn't a loving God either make the punishment finite or simply put an end to the damned soul?

So, applying Occam's Razor, simple logic and physical evidence, we have a choice: Either believe, against all reason and evidence, in the god descibed in the paragraph above or make the more rational and evidencially sound decision that there indeed is no god.

Hokulele

10th July 2009, 01:28 PM

Okay, Thanks it will be great to meet you. I will get in touch when we get there and we can go from there. The Island is so beautiful I can't wait to visit again. This will be my 4th or 5th time on Maui.

Hey do you happen to know a musician friend we met there several years back named Harris? If so is he still living on Maui? I know he use to travel to the mainland a lot for gigs but we lost touch with him years ago. I was just wondering if he was still around Lahiana, he was always there cruising around on his bike?

And now that I was off topic, how do we go back to that? Sometimes it is not easy for me to even want to think about dying, but I do look forward to the afterlife someday. For now I intend to live my life the best I can and hopefully God will be glorified. I look forward to making new friends and having more adventures.

This would better off in its own thread over in Community. If it makes things easier, simply report the first post where you started discussing this, and a moderator can split it off for you.

kurious_kathy

10th July 2009, 01:34 PM

Jesus said a lot more than that about what's needed for us to be saved. Add in some Paul and the situation gets even more fuzzy. Why do you think the different denominations, including non-denominational, each emphasize a different thing? It's because they all cherrypick. And there are so many cherries...

The key to being a true Christian is getting Jesus right, he died to save us. If we understand him for who he truly is and become disciples we are on the right path.Being discipled well is what is so needed in our day and unfortunately there seem to be more false teachers than real ones called by God. I have weeded out many of the false teachers already but it will be a continue to be a challenge. We must all get to aplace of spiritual discernment which the Holy Spirit helps us with so we are not sucked into false churches and such.

One of the hardest for us was to identify what's going on with the seeker friendly churches, they aren't sharing the whole Gospel either which means many are getting the self help feel good messages which is not what Jesus taught. Yes God is love but he is the righteous judge too and hopes all men will come to repentance and be saved. When we go to the cross and receive what Jesus did for us individually, then we are seeing him right and when we confess are sins he is faithful to forgive us.

No cherry picking, I just want to keep weeding the garden, as there r many weeds in Gods garden that need to be removed. The word of the Lord is still the power to do this. If we stand on the truth of scripture we can weed out all that other bad stuff.

kurious_kathy

10th July 2009, 01:56 PM

Kathy,

Here are a numbr of points where many of us who do not believe have problems with your scenario: As already noted in this thread, wouldn't God, being omniscient, know who would and would not accept Jesus? And wouldn't this be something in our very make-up. I can't will myself to believe something I don't believe. So we must say that God would have made some people as unbelievers (see Romans 9, the vessels o wrath).

Another problem is this: God supposedly wants us to beieve in him, then witholds evidence of his existence, then punishes those who don't believe - eternally! I know that the justification of this is supposedly a test of faith, that if he revealed himself to us directly everyone would believe. However, the same people who assert this usually believe in the literal truth of the miracles of Exodus. Thus, they would have to believe that the Israelites walked across the bottom of the Red Sea dry-shod, while its waters towered over them on either side. Yet they still didn't believe. Ergo, even if God did reveal himself, according to Exodus, some still wouldn't believe. I don't know about you, but have yet to witness a bona fide miracle.

So, to sum up: God loves us all and wants all to come to salvation, but he made some of us as unbelievers (the vessels of wrath of Romans 9). He also expects us to believe in him, but he hides from us. Then, when we fail to accept him and Jesus, even though we do so because we were constitutionally created by Him to be that way, and even though he has hidden himself from us; he damns us to hell for eternity. Why wouldn't a loving God either make the punishment finite or simply put an end to the damned soul?

So, applying Occam's Razor, simple logic and physical evidence, we have a choice: Either believe, against all reason and evidence, in the god descibed in the paragraph above or make the more rational and evidencially sound decision that there indeed is no god.

Jesus proved he was God in many ways, miracles, prophesy, the ressurrection, and even his profound teachings and words.

And yes he knows who will accept him but he still gives every person that choice, To believe or not to belive that is the question? Why does God have to be logical according to your way of thinking? He's God which means he does not have to do things according to the way we think he ought to. He's Holy which is almost unfathamable to understand.

I am not in agreement with Calvin when he taught people are already predestined to heaven or hell, I believe God gave us all free will so we always have a choice on where we want to end up. Think about the scripture that says repent or I'll blot out your name from the book of life. Humm I'm thinking the book of life means everyone who has ever been born starts off in the book of life but if we do not receive him once we come to the age of accountability then he blots it out if we are never going to believe him. This is at least how I understand it this far but, but I could be wrong, only God knows all things. I still believe everyone is capable of being saved! Maybe that's just how I want to believe but I still hope all come to know the one who saves us!!

gentlehorse

10th July 2009, 02:24 PM

The key to being a true Christian is getting Jesus right, he died to save us.

God created the world.

God told Adam and Eve not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

Adam and Eve, not knowing that it was evil to disobey (because they hadn't yet eaten from the tree and hence had no knowledge of good and evil), ate from the tree.

God sentenced Adam, Eve, and the rest of humanity to everlasting torture in the fires of hell for this transgression.

God decided to give humanity another chance.

God came to earth in human form in order to be tortured and killed so that we would be saved from his own wrath.

But the sacrifice wasn't enough to save us. In order for it to work, we have to actually believe that it worked.

Have I got it right?

galla

10th July 2009, 02:34 PM

The key to being a true Christian

Look up the True Scotsman Fallacy.

is getting Jesus right

You mean "getting Jesus right by kurious_kathy's particular definition."

Every church and teacher thinks they're just as right as you think you are. What is it that makes you actually factually right?

I Ratant

10th July 2009, 02:38 PM

Look up the True Scotsman Fallacy.

You mean "getting Jesus right by kurious_kathy's particular peculiar definition."

Every church and teacher thinks they're just as right as you think you are. What is it that makes you actually factually right?
.
Fixed that for ya. No charge. :)

Ducky

10th July 2009, 02:50 PM

Mods - is this true?

No it is not. What is true is that Kathy has in the past had difficulty comprehending how to quote copyrighted material in fair use and not violate rule 4.

Monster Machine

10th July 2009, 03:46 PM

Monster I am a non denominational Christian for a reason, Jesus said one thing is needed for us to be saved, "We must be born again!" Many denominations do not preach this so I am opposed to those that are not sharing the whole or true gospel message.

Which ones?

And if I post scripture references to back up my claims many of the jref mods get on my case and take them off so as a rule I do not often do that. I can try if you want me to but it seems the moderators really dislike it when I posts scripture on threads.

As for Holulele's books, I have chosen not to take anymore of her challenges but I am wanting to meet her when I come to visit Maui on my vacation. She said she is willing but we shall see?

Based on the topic discussed in FM (see here) (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=147809) could you please now provide the evidence to your version of the after life from a biblical standpoint.

Thank you

Monster

Phrost

10th July 2009, 03:54 PM

After I die I'm going to spend eternity punching people who truly deserve it; Pol Pot, Michael Jackson, the guy responsible for those Sonic commercials...

...it's a damn shame there's no "afterlife".

Cavemonster

10th July 2009, 04:03 PM

God created the world.

God told Adam and Eve not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

Adam and Eve, not knowing that it was evil to disobey (because they hadn't yet eaten from the tree and hence had no knowledge of good and evil), ate from the tree.

God sentenced Adam, Eve, and the rest of humanity to everlasting torture in the fires of hell for this transgression.

God decided to give humanity another chance.

God came to earth in human form in order to be tortured and killed so that we would be saved from his own wrath.

But the sacrifice wasn't enough to save us. In order for it to work, we have to actually believe that it worked.

Have I got it right?

You're skipping the fact that since he is all powerful and all knowing, that he was perfectly aware that Adam and Eve would disobey him. That he had the power to make them in a way that would not have this result, but chose not to.

Sort of like if I built a robot designed to break dishes, then punished it for breaking the dishes I knew it would before I built it.

gentlehorse

11th July 2009, 12:39 AM

You're skipping the fact that since he is all powerful and all knowing, that he was perfectly aware that Adam and Eve would disobey him. That he had the power to make them in a way that would not have this result, but chose not to.

Sort of like if I built a robot designed to break dishes, then punished it for breaking the dishes I knew it would before I built it.

Yeah, that's the problem with all-knowing, all-powerful, eternal beings. After an eternity of hanging around, they get board and start making universes and creating little beings in their own images so they can torture them forever for being exactly the way they were created to be. All-knowing, all-powerful, eternal beings have to take their fun where they can find it, I guess.

SezMe

11th July 2009, 03:30 AM

If so, then what do you think happens after you die?
Wife digs out the low-cut blouses and mini-skirts and heads to town.

11th July 2009, 08:11 AM

Wife digs out the low-cut blouses and mini-skirts and heads to town.

You think she's waiting 'til you're dead???

:D

TimCallahan

11th July 2009, 01:14 PM

Jesus proved he was God in many ways, miracles, prophesy, the ressurrection, and even his profound teachings and words.

And yes he knows who will accept him but he still gives every person that choice, To believe or not to belive that is the question? Why does God have to be logical according to your way of thinking? He's God which means he does not have to do things according to the way we think he ought to. He's Holy which is almost unfathamable to understand.

1) Of course, the "proofs" you cite are only found in the New Testament. So, basically, what you are saying is that if a group of books and a collection of letters written about 2,000 years ago by people who were far from unbiased and who definitely did NOT witness the events the claim to have recorded, say Jesus did all thes things, they must be true. Yet you wouldn't accept such "proofs" from another religion. For example, do you believe that a monk meditating on the Bhudda was able to walk on water? Do you believe that Muhammad made a miraculous journey in noe night from Medina in Arabia to the temple mount in Jerusalem? You porbably don't, but these are as much "proofs" as what you attribute to Jesus.

2) You ask, "Why does God have to be logical according to your way of thinking?" Well, he may not. However, I believe it is the contention of Christians, among other believers, that our faculties of reason and logic were implanted in us by God. So, when something isn't logical, I tend to reject it. Now if you find something in Hindu belief that seems illogical, you would probably reject Hinduism on that basis. Yet, a Hindu could easily raise the same objection with you, that the gods don't act in terms of human logic. So, if you reject Hinduism because it doesn't make sense to you, that is, your God-given sense of reason and logic tells you it isn't true, but you accept someing from the Bible that likewise defies logic and reason, you are using one set of rules and standards to judge one set of beliefs, but setting these standards aside when they're inconvenient for your own system of belief. That is simply dishonest.

SezMe

11th July 2009, 01:38 PM

TimCallahan

14th July 2009, 10:44 PM

BTW, I was enjoying this thread until KK came along and made it all about her, again. I've asked for a thread split which I hope the mods do and entitle to new one, "Me, me, me, me, me and my sky daddy?

Okay, bringing it back to what it was before. What happens after you die? Well, you get really stinky - unless, of course you were an ancient Egyptian, get embalmed or if you were Vladimir Lenin.

Come to think of it though, Lenin was under glass when my wife and I saw him in 1992. So even then he could have been stinky. I know he looked really waxy. I don't have photos, because they didn't allow photography in his tomb. I can imagine why. Think of some tourists from Iowa snapping pix. The husband says, "Honey, stand next to Lenin and smile."

They finally gave the pooor man a decent burial, which is just as well. After all, St. Basil's Cathedral is a lot more interesting than a real life (or death) version of Madam Tussaud's.

The Zoroastrians had one of the more interesting ways of dealing with post-mortem decay. Thwy called it "towers of silence." The bodies were placed in towers open to the air, where vultures could fly in through openings to dine on the flesh. Well, I'm all for recycling.