Parents chose faith over doc; kid dies

[jimtron]

From here (http://www.oregonlive.com/clackamascounty/index.ssf/2009/07/jury_hears_father_recount_fait.html):
OREGON CITY -- Carl and Raylene Worthington told detectives that they never considered calling a doctor, even as their 15-month-old daughter deteriorated and died.
"I don't believe in them," Carl Worthington said of doctors. "I believe in faith healing."

Raylene Worthington said that her religious beliefs do not encompass medical care and that she would not have done anything different for her - daughter, who died at home of pneumonia, a blood infection and other complications.


He said no one in his immediate family has ever been to a doctor or used prescription or over-the-counter medicine. "It's not something we believe in."

Brent Worthington said he had ultimate responsibility for Ava's care. "I'm the head of the house; it falls to me. The wife follows the husband."

[RandFan]

"I don't believe in them," Carl Worthington said of doctors. "I believe in faith healing."

Hopefully the courts where they live believe that neglect should be illegal regardless of the cause.

[Femke]

"I don't believe in them," Carl Worthington said of doctors. "I believe in faith healing."

Would the fact that faith did obviously not heal mean that he will start questioning faith healing as well?

[jimtron]

Would the fact that faith did obviously not heal mean that he will start questioning faith healing as well?
God works in mysterious ways, dontcha know.

[RandFan]

Would the fact that faith did obviously not heal mean that he will start questioning faith healing as well? Faith healing works in one of two ways.

It works.
It doesn't work.
See, ultimately it is up to god to decide whether the infant lives or dies. We can't question god. We can't make these types of logical conclusions. To "not work" is in fact working. Not working IS working. Such is the logic of religion. Bri (another poster on this forum) will even argue for 30 plus pages that this is actually rational (from a religious perspective).

That faith healing works no better than chance alone would predict is also not an impediment. Again, we can't use logic and reason when it comes to faith.

[yy2bggggs]

Faith healing works in one of two ways.

It works.
It doesn't work.

But faith without works is dead, right?

[Safe-Keeper]

So when doctors don't have a 100% success rate it means people shouldn't believe in them.
When faith healing doesn't have a 100% success rate it means God is testing us, has a plan, didn't see enough faith in you, etc.

Brent Worthington said he had ultimate responsibility for Ava's care. "I'm the head of the house; it falls to me. The wife follows the husband." But that's the Old Testament! It doesn't coun--

Oh, wait... (http://www.thebricktestament.com/epistles_of_paul/instructions_for_women/1co11_04.html)

[Eskarina]

He said no one in his immediate family has ever been to a doctor or used prescription or over-the-counter medicine. "It's not something we believe in."

I just wish evolution would get them before they have kids. :mad:

[chillzero]

Would the fact that faith did obviously not heal mean that he will start questioning faith healing as well?
No, generally the feeling will be that someone didn't believe or pray hard enough, or in the right way.

:(

[Elizabeth I]

Brent Worthington said he had ultimate responsibility for Ava's care. "I'm the head of the house; it falls to me. The wife follows the husband."

That's nice. Maybe they'll get to share a double cell in some hellhouse of a prison.

[Monketey Ghost]

Only in religion do you find a safe haven for child abusers.

[MG1962]

This Guardian article - although old - adds a few more details about this Church.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/mar/31/usa2

[Phrost]

Score another win for Natural Selection.

[CelticRose]

As a Christian, faith healing is something that I don't understand. Yes, you should pray for people when they're ill, but you should also take them to a doctor.

If you believe that all things come from God, then it is disrespectful to Him to reject the intelligence, skills, and knowledge that He has given to doctors.

Not taking a sick baby to a doctor is child abuse, and if the baby dies it's murder. :mad:

[sinclairmcevoy]

Only in religion do you find a safe haven for child abusers.C'mon now, denying your child a doctor based on your religious beliefs is just one form of abuse. There are lots of other forms not religion based. Sex tourism, for example.

[RandFan]

As a Christian, faith healing is something that I don't understand. Yes, you should pray for people when they're ill, but you should also take them to a doctor.

If you believe that all things come from God, then it is disrespectful to Him to reject the intelligence, skills, and knowledge that He has given to doctors.

Not taking a sick baby to a doctor is child abuse, and if the baby dies it's murder. :mad: Thank you.

I am happy to accept this answer. If one believes in god then why not believe that good things come from god. The ability to save a life is a very good thing. Modern medicine is by the standards of just 100 years ago miraculous.

[HansMustermann]

No, generally the feeling will be that someone didn't believe or pray hard enough, or in the right way.

:(

... or God wanted to test their faith. Or works in mysterious ways. Or saw that the child was deserving eternal bliss in heaven. Or it's punishment for the atheists next door. Or one of a thousand and one excuses, really.

[MattusMaximus]

But faith without works is dead, right?

Well, that will be some consolation to the dead kid.

One has to wonder just how strongly these idiot parents cling to their faith. When it's their kid's life on the line, no doctors just prayer. Kid dies. Oh boo hoo, I suppose it was God's will.

But now their asses are on the line. They're looking at possibly going to jail for a long, long time. I suggest they put their faith to the test again - instead of having a lawyer represent them in court, they should just pray that God will acquit and set them free from the persecution they're now undergoing.

Somehow I think they've got a lawyer. Hypocrites.

[MG1962]

As a Christian, faith healing is something that I don't understand. Yes, you should pray for people when they're ill, but you should also take them to a doctor.

If you believe that all things come from God, then it is disrespectful to Him to reject the intelligence, skills, and knowledge that He has given to doctors.

Not taking a sick baby to a doctor is child abuse, and if the baby dies it's murder. :mad:

I completely agree - Examples like this only help to create far more athiests than people of faith

[RandFan]

I completely agree - Examples like this only help to create far more athiests than people of faith
Not that there's anything wrong with that.

[MG1962]

Not that there's anything wrong with that.

It depends how you look at it - If you an athiest arrives at their answer through a process of introspection and personal growth, then of course there isn't - If a Christian actively drives an athiest to their position though their actions, then in my opinion there is

[jimtron]

As a Christian, faith healing is something that I don't understand. Yes, you should pray for people when they're ill, but you should also take them to a doctor.

If you believe that all things come from God, then it is disrespectful to Him to reject the intelligence, skills, and knowledge that He has given to doctors.

Not taking a sick baby to a doctor is child abuse, and if the baby dies it's murder. :mad:

I started this thread, and am not a fan of religion. But to be fair, I assume the vast majority of religious adherents would denounce child abuse like this. Actually, I think it's "alternative" medicine proponents that are more likely to cause unnecessary harm to their children, more than those who believe in faith healing (I gather that the idea of faith healing is very common, but avoiding health care entirely I'm hoping is not so common). I assume and hope that what the Worthington's did is very rare, while depriving kids of vaccines and other medical attention seems all too prevalent these days.

[RandFan]

It depends how you look at it - If you an athiest arrives at their answer through a process of introspection and personal growth, then of course there isn't - If a Christian actively drives an athiest to their position though their actions, then in my opinion there isTo be sure you were using balancing scales to compare the ratio of atheists to christians. That in and of itself isn't a bad thing.

But I understand your point. I don't necassarily agree with it but not every fine point need to be debated.

[MG1962]

To be sure you were using balancing scales to compare the ratio of atheists to christians. That in and of itself isn't a bad thing.

But I understand your point. I don't necassarily agree with it but not every fine point need to be debated.

Thats fair enough - I guess a better way for me to put it would be I hate the thought that my negative actions impacted a choice someone else made.

[joobz]

The problem with faith healers is the same problem with the amish. It's not that they reject technology or medicine, they reject technology/mediine after some arbitrary point.

Washing and keeping clean are examples of primitive (yet extremely effective) preventative medicine. It's the practice of minimizing disease transmission. Am I to believe that Faith healers pray themselves clean every morning?
Do they brush thier teeth with an our father?

[Monza]

If the child's fate is up to god, would taking some medicine have an effect? That is, can you counteract the power of The Almighty with a Tylenol?

[Ralph]

Well, that will be some consolation to the dead kid.

One has to wonder just how strongly these idiot parents cling to their faith. When it's their kid's life on the line, no doctors just prayer. Kid dies. Oh boo hoo, I suppose it was God's will.

But now their asses are on the line. They're looking at possibly going to jail for a long, long time. I suggest they put their faith to the test again - instead of having a lawyer represent them in court, they should just pray that God will acquit and set them free from the persecution they're now undergoing.

Somehow I think they've got a lawyer. Hypocrites.

I also have to wonder how far this "we don't believe in modern medicine" goes when the injury is of a more immediate and painfull nature.

A motor vehicle accident involving some crushed & mangled limbs--bleeding profusely and causing a fair amount of agony, for example.

Are they going to wave away the paramedics arriving on the scene and call for a faith healer
instead?

I'm betting they'll be screaming for morphine & a tourniquet.

[Yalius]

...and the dirtbags got away with it. How long are we going to let this cult get away with this?

http://www.opb.org/thinkoutloud/shows/worthington-trial/

http://www.katu.com/news/51514777.html

[bobcarp]

Just a question, but do these "faith" people take their dogs to the vet?

[godless dave]

As a Christian, faith healing is something that I don't understand. Yes, you should pray for people when they're ill,

Why? Doesn't God already know they're ill?

[ponderingturtle]

Just a question, but do these "faith" people take their dogs to the vet?

Of course, how do you know if the dog has been saved?

[godless dave]

C'mon now, denying your child a doctor based on your religious beliefs is just one form of abuse. There are lots of other forms not religion based. Sex tourism, for example.

He didn't say religion was the only cause of child abuse, he said it was a safe haven for child abuse. Meaning, religion gives people an excuse to abuse children or to protect abusers from prosecution and civil lawsuits that many other people will accept.

[Eos of the Eons]

Um. What do these people do in cases of broken bones, car accidents, falls, etc.?????

[Geezer]

If the child's fate is up to god, would taking some medicine have an effect? That is, can you counteract the power of The Almighty with a Tylenol?

Of course you can, it is after all the all powerful god that can't even penetrate a thin latex membrane according to the Catholic Church.

[Fizzer]

Reminds me of the story about the guy caught in rising floodwaters on his roof.
A guy in a boat comes by to rescue him but he declines and says that God will save him. Two more boats pass by but he refuses each time say that God will save him, even as the waters continue to rise. Eventually he drowns. He then meats up with God and asks him why he did save him. God responds, "I sent three boats, what more do you want?"


"You prayed for your baby and I sent doctors and medicine!"

[Darth Rotor]

As a Christian, faith healing is something that I don't understand. Yes, you should pray for people when they're ill, but you should also take them to a doctor.

If you believe that all things come from God, then it is disrespectful to Him to reject the intelligence, skills, and knowledge that He has given to doctors.

Not taking a sick baby to a doctor is child abuse, and if the baby dies it's murder. :mad:
Maybe negligent homicide. Cop to a lesser offense , if charged.

Why go to the expense? Why spend the dough on court, and incarceration.

Their child is dead. Their hope for the future embodied in that child is dead. I suppose they'll make another one, as the pioneers on the frontier did before doctors were so common, and try to breed one that lives. A lot of people are alive today whose ancestors didn't use, or have access to, doctors.

Is this really that bad?

IMO, asking them to give the kid up for adoption if they didn't want to take better care is a non starter. Don't see them having that conversation.

DR

[ponderingturtle]

Maybe negligent homicide. Cop to a lesser offense , if charged.

Why go to the expense? Why spend the dough on court, and incarceration.

Their child is dead. Their hope for the future embodied in that child is dead. I suppose they'll make another one, as the pioneers on the frontier did before doctors were so common, and try to breed one that lives. A lot of people are alive today whose ancestors didn't use, or have access to, doctors.

Is this really that bad?

IMO, asking them to give the kid up for adoption if they didn't want to take better care is a non starter. Don't see them having that conversation.

DR

Well many people think it is wrong for parents to kill their kids, and prosecutions like this have a chance in reducing the numbers of parents who do that.

Look at the homopathy baby that died in australia, the mother took real medicince when she got sick because that hurt her, the pain her child was in was not enough to get her to question her beliefs but the pain she was in was.

[pakeha]

Is this the case, ponderingturtle?

http://209.85.229.132/search?q=cache:neJ7zQ_maXEJ:richarddawkins.net/article,3930,Homeopath-Thomas-Sam-guilty-of-daughter-Glorias-death,The-Daily-Telegraph-Australia+homeopathy+child+death+Austrlia&cd=1&hl=es&ct=clnk&gl=es

edited to add:
link doesn't work for me. Off to find another

Later. This 'should' work
http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World-News/Homeopathy-Parents-Charged-Over-Baby-Daughter-Glorias-Death-In-Australia/Article/200905115276109