Testing for explosives

[leftysergeant]

I keep seeing the twoofers complain about the lack of forensic tests for explosivies at the WTC sites. I am trying to figure out what test could possibly have been performed, beyond examining the steel for explosive marks and sampling the residues on steel so damaged and sampling the ambient air.

Anyone here have some useful experience in conducting such testing and an idea of what they could have tested?

[UNLoVedRebel]

Do you need to test for explosives to figure out what happened to this building?

d-WvQbFMIWU

[triforcharity]

Good point.

But, to answer the question, they would use some pads to swipe certain areas, look at the steel, maybe some ground samples, but, like Unloved said, is it really nessary??

[geni]

I keep seeing the twoofers complain about the lack of forensic tests for explosivies at the WTC sites. I am trying to figure out what test could possibly have been performed, beyond examining the steel for explosive marks and sampling the residues on steel so damaged and sampling the ambient air.

Anyone here have some useful experience in conducting such testing and an idea of what they could have tested?

Various ways you can do it. Generaly takeing samples from around the site where you think there was an explosion and running one of any number of tests depending on what you think the explosive used was.

[njslim]

I have talked to commander of Passaic County Bomb Squad - lectures our FD on bomb
procedures. He and his team spent several weeks at site doing search/rescue. They
did not discern any signs of explosive demolition- no blasting caps, pieces of det cord
or shock tubes to wire charges togather, no pieces of fencing/metal sheeting used to
secure charges around columns.

Explain to the idiots that members of the bomb squad spent weeks crawling over scene
doing search/recovery - none of them spotted anything as belonging to an explosive
demolition.

[fuelair]

Do you need to test for explosives to figure out what happened to this building?

d-WvQbFMIWU Only for idiots, conspiracists and the ignorant, but I repeat myself.

[dropzone]

Explain to the idiots that members of the bomb squad spent weeks crawling over scene doing search/recovery - none of them spotted anything as belonging to an explosive demolition.Yeah, but they were REALLY concentrating on search/recovery? It leaves liitle time for searching for explosive residue, DOES IT?

Capitalization caused by my channeling a Truther. You may ignore it.

[Tweeter]

Yaah, everyone knows when you need search and rescue you call the bomb squad. Maybe that was standard procedure back then.



http://www.fbi.gov/publications/leb/2006/august2006/aug2006leb_img_18.jpg

Hotlink in breach of Rule 4...the (C) notice in the pic might have been been a hint?

[BigAl]

Yaah, everyone knows when you need search and rescue you call the bomb squad. Maybe that was standard procedure back then.


The NYC bomb squad including their dogs was deployed to WTC on 9/11 and for days afterwords.

[Tweeter]

The NYC bomb squad including their dogs were deployed to WTC on 9/11 and for days afterwords.

Fixed that for you.


Yeah thats what njism said. I dont doubt it.

[parky76]

wait, are we now accusing the NYPD Bomb Squad of suppressing the truth? that makes them co-conspirators!!

they are in on it!!

[knife fight colobus]

Yaah, everyone knows when you need search and rescue you call the bomb squad. Maybe that was standard procedure back then.



http://www.fbi.gov/publications/leb/2006/august2006/aug2006leb_img_18.jpg

Be serious. Are you saying that they were brought in to help get rid of the evidence of explosives?

Is this something you've always thought or did it just pop into your head as soon as you saw this thread?

[leftysergeant]

It did seem painfully obvious to me that nobody in their right mind would have tested every piece of steel in that mess. Wouldn't the EPA sampling of the air have picked up some trace of just about anything useful for demolitions?

I have already brought up the fact in any of my conflicts with twoofers that thousands of cops and fire fire fighters and investigators had been clambering all over the wreckage and never saw anything worth checking out further, but, to those little pea-brains, what difference does that make?

Let's go at this from another angle. If CD had occurred, what airborn traces would have been present in the smoke and dust?

[knife fight colobus]

It did seem painfully obvious to me that nobody in their right mind would have tested every piece of steel in that mess. Wouldn't the EPA sampling of the air have picked up some trace of just about anything useful for demolitions?

I have already brought up the fact in any of my conflicts with twoofers that thousands of cops and fire fire fighters and investigators had been clambering all over the wreckage and never saw anything worth checking out further, but, to those little pea-brains, what difference does that make?

Let's go at this from another angle. If CD had occurred, what airborn traces would have been present in the smoke and dust?


I find that when this is brought up that Truthers start talking about metal meteors and pools of molten steel. As that even consistent with what happens after a CD? I ask that and they never give an answer.

[Southwind17]

Anyone here have some useful experience in conducting such testing and an idea of what they could have tested?

Not really sure why you're even asking this question lefty. Two commercial aircraft fly into two high-rise buildings which subsequently collapse, so we entertain the possibility that CD was the cause! Isn't that analogous to, say, investigating whether somebody over-filled a bath in New Orleans on 25 August 2005? :rolleyes:

[triforcharity]

Southwind,

Great comaprison!

Anyway, here is my biggest problem with 9/11 CT. Think of the amount of people who would have known about 9/11 to cover it up. Think of the hundreds of thousands of people. How much money would it take you to cover up the biggest mass murder in US history? $100 $200....HECK NO!! I am talking MILLIONS!! (And I swear on everything that is holy, when I go to ground zero this year, if I hear ONE CT say FDNY was in on it, I am going to go batpoo crazy)

So, figure that about 500,000 people have to be in on their little conspiracy. Heck ASCE has 150,000 people just by its self. If you paid each on, say 50 mil (I would say thats about the going rate for a coverup) that woule equal something like 250,000,000,000,000

Yep, thats 250 TRILLION dollars!! Sweet baby jesus........

[240-185]

Here's a link to a video which shows how controlled demolitions are planned: http://info.francetelevisions.fr/video-info/?id-video=MAM_1500000000003865_200907031415_F2&id-categorie=BONUS_LES_EDITIONS_NATIONALES_13H_FEUILL ETONS

There are _several_ ways to destroy a building, not one.
Sorry, it's from french TV news, so it's all in french.

[fuelair]

Be serious. Are you saying that they were brought in to help get rid of the evidence of explosives?

Is this something you've always thought or did it just pop into your head as soon as you saw this thread?
You are making a dangerous assumption in that last sentence.:):jaw-dropp

[Southwind17]

There are _several_ ways to destroy a building, not one.
Sorry, it's from french TV news, so it's all in french.

... et peau le chat!

[McHrozni]

Let's go at this from another angle. If CD had occurred, what airborn traces would have been present in the smoke and dust?

Generally speaking, nothing of value:

TNT:
2 C7H5N3O6 → 3 N2 + 5 H2O + 7 CO + 7 C

Nitrogen, water, carbon oxide (which will go into carbon oxide in no time) and elemental carbon, aka soot. It will likely burn into carbon dioxide in the moments after explosion.
End result are three of the four main components of our atmoshphere

Nitroglycerin, a component in many military explosives, and other nitrogen based explosives isn't much better in this regard.

You might get lucky and pick some undetonated explosive in the vapors, though the high temperatures make that highly unlikely. Nitroglycerin decomposes at 60°C (~140F), before even boiling, TNT at nearly 300°C, but again, decomposes before boiling. Plus you'll need a mass spectrometer to detect them, and there is a lower limit of how much you can still detect.

Scraping surfaces might be more productive, but then again, if there was an explosion that tore apart the steel in question, the visible marks will be very hard to miss, even to a non-expert.

McHrozni

[Southwind17]

Generally speaking, nothing of value:

TNT:
2 C7H5N3O6 → 3 N2 + 5 H2O + 7 CO + 7 C

Nitrogen, water, carbon oxide (which will go into carbon oxide in no time) and elemental carbon, aka soot. It will likely burn into carbon dioxide in the moments after explosion.
End result are three of the four main components of our atmoshphere

Nitroglycerin, a component in many military explosives, and other nitrogen based explosives isn't much better in this regard.

You might get lucky and pick some undetonated explosive in the vapors, though the high temperatures make that highly unlikely. Nitroglycerin decomposes at 60°C (~140F), before even boiling, TNT at nearly 300°C, but again, decomposes before boiling. Plus you'll need a mass spectrometer to detect them, and there is a lower limit of how much you can still detect.

Scraping surfaces might be more productive, but then again, if there was an explosion that tore apart the steel in question, the visible marks will be very hard to miss, even to a non-expert.

You take life way too seriously - lighten! ;)

[njslim]

There are _several_ ways to destroy a building, not one.
Sorry, it's from french TV news, so it's all in french.

Ve plaze ze bomb in ze building ands lits ze fuze like zist....

[McHrozni]

You take life way too seriously - lighten! ;)

It was an involuntary reflex response ;)

McHrozni

[knife fight colobus]

Anyway, here is my biggest problem with 9/11 CT. Think of the amount of people who would have known about 9/11 to cover it up. Think of the hundreds of thousands of people. How much money would it take you to cover up the biggest mass murder in US history? $100 $200....HECK NO!! I am talking MILLIONS!! (And I swear on everything that is holy, when I go to ground zero this year, if I hear ONE CT say FDNY was in on it, I am going to go batpoo crazy)

So, figure that about 500,000 people have to be in on their little conspiracy. Heck ASCE has 150,000 people just by its self. If you paid each on, say 50 mil (I would say thats about the going rate for a coverup) that woule equal something like 250,000,000,000,000

Yep, thats 250 TRILLION dollars!! Sweet baby jesus........

Its depressing that I know the Truther answers to these:

1) Act condescending and say, "well I can't go on all day speculating about this kind of stuff. Instead I look at the concrete evidence."

2) Now transition into talking about how a lot of these people didn't necessarily need to know what they were doing in order to help set up the job. Only like, the people flying the jet and the people getting rid of the passengers that were supposed to be on U93...but come on.

3) Here's the best part, why is it that Donald Rumsfeld went on tv on 9-10-01 (that is the day before 9-11-01, btw) and complained about how TRILLIONS of dollars of government spending in relation to the pentagon is unaccounted for? Furthermore, isn't it a coincidence that AA77 hit the side of the pentagon where all the accountants were located? I believe 30 were killed!

4) Must finish with, I'm just asking questions or JAQ.

[triforcharity]

Ok, who here can translate, I don't speak french.

[knife fight colobus]

You are making a dangerous assumption in that last sentence.:):jaw-dropp

Hey, JAQ is all I'm doing.

[Justin39640]

Its depressing that I know the Truther answers to these:


4) Must finish with, I'm just asking questions or JAQ.

thats the worst one
so you (not the poster im quoting) can get all angry and spout all this nonsense about CD, flyovers, thermite, etc etc etc etc
and then when all else fails or you cant explain your position (cause its nonsensical) you say
"i dont know the answers, im just asking questions"
no youre not
you make accusations and poorly at that

[Homeland Insurgency]

What was left to test?

Should they have followed the ships to China to test the steel?

How many victims were never found?

Where are the black boxes?

Who tested the air and claimed it was safe to breathe?

Test for explosives?

Test what and when? Test it now?

[leftysergeant]

Generally speaking, nothing of value:

TNT:
2 C7H5N3O6 → 3 N2 + 5 H2O + 7 CO + 7 C

Nitrogen, water, carbon oxide (which will go into carbon oxide in no time) and elemental carbon, aka soot. It will likely burn into carbon dioxide in the moments after explosion.
End result are three of the four main components of our atmoshphere.

So random testing would be useless, really. You would have no target that isn't already supposed to be there.

Even the end-products of thermite are supposed to be there.

Scraping surfaces might be more productive, but then again, if there was an explosion that tore apart the steel in question, the visible marks will be very hard to miss, even to a non-expert.

That is always the first thing I try to point out, but it seems to bounce off the thick skulls of the average twoofer. The first step in testing for explosives, as far as I had ever been taught, is to look for steel that appears damaged in some way that you would not expect in a progressive collapse. I am sure that all the FEMA, FDNY and NYPD people would have had occassion to look at such things and would have noticed them.

Not that that matters to some people who expect you to answer things that nobody in their right minds would have asked under the circumstances.

It has been a while since I had anything to do with inspecting a fire scene. Just wanted to be sure there wasn't some new technology that I wasn't up on.

They probably still haven't come up with anything more reliable than the Mark I eyeball since those days.

[McHrozni]

So random testing would be useless, really. You would have no target that isn't already supposed to be there.

Even the end-products of thermite are supposed to be there.

The funny thing about this is that NIST even stated something to that effect in it's report. Testing, even if it were done, might not be conclusive, as end products could be present from other sources.

Jones responded by "So not even try?" and left it at that, I believe.

That is always the first thing I try to point out, but it seems to bounce off the thick skulls of the average twoofer. The first step in testing for explosives, as far as I had ever been taught, is to look for steel that appears damaged in some way that you would not expect in a progressive collapse. I am sure that all the FEMA, FDNY and NYPD people would have had occassion to look at such things and would have noticed them.

Not that that matters to some people who expect you to answer things that nobody in their right minds would have asked under the circumstances.

It has been a while since I had anything to do with inspecting a fire scene. Just wanted to be sure there wasn't some new technology that I wasn't up on.

They probably still haven't come up with anything more reliable than the Mark I eyeball since those days.

Another thing twoofers should but can't get into their heads: Had the towers been brought down by explosives as stated by Jones and others, we either wouldn't get any images from Ground Zero at all, or we'd see evidence of explosions on the steel all over the place.
But then again, they aren't searching for the truth, but for evidence that would support their version of events. There is a world of difference between the two.

McHrozni

[alienentity]

The funny thing about this is that NIST even stated something to that effect in it's report. Testing, even if it were done, might not be conclusive, as end products could be present from other sources.

Jones responded by "So not even try?" and left it at that, I believe.



Another thing twoofers should but can't get into their heads: Had the towers been brought down by explosives as stated by Jones and others, we either wouldn't get any images from Ground Zero at all, or we'd see evidence of explosions on the steel all over the place.
But then again, they aren't searching for the truth, but for evidence that would support their version of events. There is a world of difference between the two.

McHrozni

Your last statement struck home - 9/11 'truth' is not a search for truth at all; it is a dedicated smear campaign against almost every branch of American government and law enforcement, 9/11 is simply the vehicle for the campaign.

It is an attempt to create an ideological rift where there was none ('US' vs 'THEM'), to create a mythology which justifies hatred of your own government and calls for retribution.

That's my take on it anyway.

How else would such an obvious term of demonization such as 'disinfo shill' come into play? We all know how these terms are bandied about unfairly towards those of us who express skepticism toward 9/11 'truth', so we understand fully the attempt to demonize.

Personally I've been accused of being a CIA agent and working for the gubmint. Maybe those making the accusations actually believed them, but I don't know. They were wrong of course... but it's the thought that counts ;)

[DGM]

I seem to remember they did test for just about everything. They found trace radiation from the emergency signs and plenty of gun-powder (traces) from the onsite stores and the NYPD. I personally don't think the argument is worth discussing (or my time looking back up) but, I do remember reading about it.

[leftysergeant]

Given the massive stores of ammo in WTC 6, I suppose just about everything in the pile would be pretty well-contaminated at that. Don't know why I didn't think of that the last time I ran into the argument.

[Bobert]

The NYC bomb squad including their dogs was deployed to WTC on 9/11 and for days afterwords.
Tweeter's ignorance knows no bounds.
Does he think that the bomb squad members are going to stop and wonder,"gee I wonder if saving lives is in my job description" before they help.
Dont feed the troll

[firecoins]

why would anyone test for explosives? None were possible.

[johnny karate]

Be serious. Are you saying that they were brought in to help get rid of the evidence of explosives?

Is this something you've always thought or did it just pop into your head as soon as you saw this thread?

Tweeter has previously slandered the FDNY, so it's not beneath him to slander other courageous first responders. It's better just to put him on ignore.

[LashL]

"Tweeter" is a sockpuppet and troll, unworthy of discussion, frankly.

[fuelair]

... et peau le chat!
the feces of the cat?:):D:D

[leftysergeant]

Actually, a cat's litterbox would probably register on some tests for explosives.

[Southwind17]

It has been a while since I had anything to do with inspecting a fire scene.

Yeah, me too, come to think of it. Really must get back into that ... sure am sick to the back teeth of this bloody geocaching!

[triforcharity]

Tweeter thinks very low of the firefighters on 9/11, and in general.

See this post here.

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=4873035#post4873035


WOW..........

[alienentity]

There wouldn't be much point looking for explosives in WTC 1 and 2, because Dutch demolition expert Danny Jowenko has said, in a video interview, that they weren't brought down with explosives.

He said WTC7 WAS a standard controlled demolition, so that's where to look. Try examining the insides of Larry Silverstein's jacket pockets to see if there's any residue left after he pushed the red button.

If anyone does investigate this crime properly, they ought to find out why the government and its agents decided to collapse the East part of building 7 first, and where they got the silent explosives from.

Oh wait, Steven Jones knows what explosives were used - silent nanothermite paint. It's all been verified in a peer-reviewed journal, and the perps are soon going to be on their way to jail, thanks to the efforts of Dr. Jones, Harrit and their merry band of investigators.

What a happy ending awaits.

[triforcharity]

I think the sound the happy ending makes could be described as Clunkety clunk!!!

[Squidgy]

"Tweeter" is a sockpuppet and troll, unworthy of discussion, frankly.
LOL, I am starting to see a pattern here ;)

[LashL]

LOL, I am starting to see a pattern here ;) Squidgy,

Actually, I was just yanking your chain last night as I was in that kind of mood, and I apologize for being rude. Sorry about that.

Cheers,
Lash

[/OT]

[peteweaver]

When explosives are used, prior to the collapse, there are a series of charges going off, with characteristic loud bangs and flashes.

When the WTC's collapsed that did not happen.
With the WTC's, the conspiracy theorists claim that 'squibs' are shooting out, while the towers are collapsing.
This is a very big difference.