ACLU / AU / Atheists are "Anti-Christmas Scrooges"

[calladus]

This gentleman's article is so wrong on so many levels that it is both humorous and painful to read.
Link to article (http://www.washingtondispatch.com/article_7286.shtml)

For the last two decades these gangs of unhappy and unfulfilled Americans have gone town by town, school by school hoping to cleanse Christmas and every reference to the real reason we celebrate it from our public lexicon. Knowing that their mission to purge Christmas, God, Christ, and other religious symbols from the public square could not be accomplished through debate and discourse in a nation where some 94% of the people believe in God and the majority are Christian they turned to the all too willing courts to impose their atheist religion.

. . .

Banning Christmas trees has long been a favorite debate of mine to follow. There is absolutely nothing religious about a tree decorated with lights and ornaments – there is no reference to it in the New Testament and certainly nobody can dispute that the Christmas tree is a relatively new invention. Nevertheless, some towns have decided to ban them and some have come so close to it that the trees have become multicultural displays that seek inclusion at the cost of beauty.


94%? Is he lumping the Agnostic, and believers in other faiths together with the Christians?

Personally I wouldn't work to ban a Christmas tree - I like 'em too much, and have a very nice tree tastefully decorated w/ white lights and plenty of ornaments. It has a nice big red bow on the top of the tree, and a little snowy village under it! Presents are already starting to appear under it too.

And he uses the old saw about Atheism being a religion!

:hb: AARRGGHH!

[arcticpenguin]

some have come so close to it that the trees have become multicultural displays that seek inclusion at the cost of beauty.
Here we start to see the truth. It is about exclusion.

[Upchurch]

What is it about Christmas that makes the ACLU and Americans United so unhappy? Surely it is not their stated objection that they believe that municipal or government recognition of the Christmas holiday is somehow an establishment of religion. That argument rings hollow on so many levels: how is putting up a tree or allowing a choir from a church in town to sing a Christmas song that inevitably contains reference to the reason the holiday exists to begin with establishes a church?Isn't there a line in the bible about where two or three gather together in Jesus's name, that is a church?
If their position were credible there would be at least one person they could trot out to Fox News to say that they converted to Christianity because they saw a Christmas tree at city hall. Sounds absurd, but so is their argument. Since when was conversion a necessary element of establishment of a church?

[sparklecat]

When two or three are gathered together in my name [Christ talking] I am with them.

Or something very close to that.

[Upchurch]

Originally posted by sparklecat
When two or three are gathered together in my name [Christ talking] I am with them. That's the one, I just couldn't find it in my handy-dandy skeptics annotated bible.

[sparklecat]

Originally posted by Upchurch
That's the one, I just couldn't find it in my handy-dandy skeptics annotated bible.

*has heard of that, but has no idea what it is*

As would probably be rather obvious if someone looked the verse up, I was going from memory... but I think thats the gist of it.

[Upchurch]

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/

sorry for the aside

[Upchurch]

anyway, my point was that from a truly Christian point of view, a group of carolers singing songs about the glory of Christ constitutes a church. A church on city property constitutes state endorced religion, at least from a Christian point of view.

[c4ts]

At least he can admit that Christians are a majority.

[Yahweh]

For the last two decades these gangs of unhappy and unfulfilled Americans have gone town by town, school by school hoping to cleanse Christmas and every reference to the real reason we celebrate it from our public lexicon.

...

There is absolutely nothing religious about a tree decorated with lights and ornaments (I noticed his "nothing religious" statement could possibly be construed as inconsistent with the above where he mentions "the real reason we celebrate"...) – there is no reference to it in the New Testament and certainly nobody can dispute that the Christmas tree is a relatively new invention.

Well, he got one thing right, the bit about the Christmas Tree is in the Old Testament...

From Jeremiah 10:3-4:
10:3
For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.

10:4
They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.

From Christmas-Tree.com (http://www.christmas-tree.com/where.html):
The fir tree has a long association with Christianity, it began in Germany almost a 1000 years ago when St Boniface, who converted the German people to Christianity, was said to have come across a group of pagans worshipping an oak tree. In anger, St Boniface is said to have cut down the oak tree and to his amazement a young fir tree sprung up from the roots of the oak tree. St Boniface took this as a sign of the Christian faith. But it was not until the 16th century that fir trees were brought indoors at Christmas time.
I dont know why the author of the article considers the Heathen Tree as a "relatively new invention"...

[DarkMagician]

Originally posted by Upchurch
anyway, my point was that from a truly Christian point of view, a group of carolers singing songs about the glory of Christ constitutes a church. A church on city property constitutes state endorced religion, at least from a Christian point of view. "Stop disregarding the first or I'll exercise my second!"

[Lord Emsworth]

Originally posted by Sparklcat
When two or three are gathered together in my name [Christ talking] I am with them.

Or something very close to that.

I am not sure if that is in the Bible. But I know a hymn (song) that goes like this.

[sparklecat]

Originally posted by Lord Emsworth


I am not sure if that is in the Bible. But I know a hymn (song) that goes like this.

*nods and smiles at Ems* Oh, got the email btw, thanks


Calladus, I promise I'm not conspiring with everyone to sidetrack your thread! :D

[calladus]

Originally posted by sparklecat
Calladus, I promise I'm not conspiring with everyone to sidetrack your thread! :D

Justine - don't worry about that.

Here, I'll even help. When growing up in the church, I was told by my pastor that if 3 or more gathered in the lord's name, and he was there - then wouldn't the same be true of Satan?

This was used as a reason to desist those things that he saw as satanic, such as role playing games or listening to rock and roll.

Made me wonder - ya see, I'm the guy who brought the RPG "Call of Cthulhu" to my circle of friends. Great game! (What happens if 3 or more gather in Cthulhu's name?)

I also wondered if it was okay to do Satanic things if I did them alone? Sadly, I put that logic aside for almost 15 years.

[sparklecat]

Thats great. I love that story.

*happily sidetracks her way through life*

[Some Friggin Guy]

Originally posted by calladus
(What happens if 3 or more gather in Cthulhu's name?)


Ummm...An angel gets its wings?

[sparklecat]

Originally posted by calladus
I also wondered if it was okay to do Satanic things if I did them alone? Sadly, I put that logic aside for almost 15 years.

Aye, one has to wonder if the above quote, along with the one on God granting whatever two agree upon, means that its useless to pray alone...

Well, maybe one doesn't have to, but I did...

[c4ts]

Originally posted by Some Friggin Guy


Ummm...An angel gets its wings?

Right before Cthulhu devours it.

[Ladewig]

...the trees have become multicultural displays that seek inclusion at the cost of beauty.


"At the cost of beauty"?
So, it comes down to "Our midwinter festival symbols are more beautiful than your midwinter festival symbols." I say slap a star on this guy's belly and call him a Sneetch.






----------------------------------
Originally posted by sparklecat
When two or three are gathered together in my name [Christ talking] I am with them.

Are you sure? I always thought the quote was, "when four are gathered, there will be a fifth."

[sparklecat]

Originally posted by Ladewig
Are you sure? I always thought the quote was, "when four are gathered, there will be a fifth."

Well, the quote wasn't exact on my part, but yeah, I'm sure. Matthew 18:20.

[c4ts]

When more than three people gather together for a common purpose, that's not faith, that's a crowd. Faith already belongs to the individuals if they decide to gather in God's name or not. It's not like Captain Planet or anything.

[evildave]

Here's the first good site I found looking for Christians against Christmas...
http://www.ooblick.com/text/xtian-vs-xtian.php

But that's Christians against Christians.

Then "Christmas is evil".
http://www.anastasiabaptist.org/sermon_dec_29_2001.html

Then I tried "Christians who don't celebrate christmas" and got to these...

Real Christians Don't Celebrate Christmas
http://www.repentnow.com/christmas.htm

"Why Christians Shouldn't Celebrate Christmas"
http://thebibletruthsite.tripod.com/whynottocelebxmas.htm

And another
http://www.yahwehmusic.com/covenants/truth1.html

And this (with COOL audio sermons!)
http://www.hardcoretruth.com/Christmas/Frame1/

Then we have this (spoof) from the Landover Baptist site.
http://www.landoverbaptist.org/sermons/christmas.html

For a balanced bit of information, there's always the Religious Tolerance site.
http://www.religioustolerance.org/xmas_menu.htm


Anyway, there are plenty of Christian "Anti-Christmas Scrooges", so you can hardly hold it against me as an unbeliever. After all, I just spent about $300 on Christmas gifts. (Grinchy old man that I am.)

Though this is still my favorite Christmas cartoon: http://www.killfile.org/soxmas/

"It's the presents."

[Ladewig]

Originally posted by Ladewig
Are you sure? I always thought the quote was, "when four are gathered, there will be a fifth."
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well, the quote wasn't exact on my part, but yeah, I'm sure. Matthew 18:20.

The only thing worse than people not laughing at one's joke is having people try to correct the premise. In the U.S., hard liquor used to be sold in "fifths" (of a gallon). The quote implied that when four are gathered in His name there will be drinking.

[sparklecat]

lol... had I been old enough to drink, its more likely I would have gotten it ;)

[Nyarlathotep]

Originally posted by Some Friggin Guy


Ummm...An angel gets its wings?

Something gets its wings, but not an angel...

[Chanileslie]

The History Channel has a nice write up on the History of Christmas
The Real Story of Christmas (http://www.historychannel.com/exhibits/holidays/christmas/real.html)

Christmas wasn't even begun in this country as a celebration of the christian religion or god, but more as a family holiday.

From the site: It wasn't until the 19th century that Americans began to embrace Christmas. Americans re-invented Christmas, and changed it from a raucous carnival holiday into a family-centered day of peace and nostalgia.....

....In Irving's mind, Christmas should be a peaceful, warm-hearted holiday bringing groups together across lines of wealth or social status....

Of course my sister and I had this discussion, and she still insists that Christmas is a day to celebrate the baby jesus. Which makes me shudder as we were not raised this way, and when I brought that up, my sister just kept repeating that it was a day to celebrate the birth and resurection of christ. Our mother was an agnostic, and definitely an atheist when it came to the xian religion.

So, Happy Saturnalia to you all because that is the true basis of the celebration of December 25th. Now let the orgy begin!!

[Fun2BFree]

Why do Xmas lovers WANT their stuff on PUBLIC property? Why do they WANT Xmas to be a national holiday? Why do they WANT God on the money and in the motto? What is the point? The point is to cram one worldview down everybody else's throat as the popular one or the official one or the main one....if it can't make someone have faith then what harm is from its absence?...if it does make faith stronger what is the government doing in the faith strengthening business?

As a supporter of secular government- I don't see where the government should have any stake in this at all. Faith, religion, spirituality whatever is a matter of individual conscience not something governments have any aptitude for...the only reason to have the government take any position on this is to have official government favoring some individual's conscientious philosophy over others....this is not a formula for successful governing of any society with diverse opinions on such a nebulous topic.

[gnome]

Originally posted by Fun2BFree
The point is to cram one worldview down everybody else's throat as the popular one or the official one or the main one

I'm not really sure that's the case. To be honest, I suspect that by having Christian displays everywhere for Christmas, they can imagine that everyone that matters believes the same thing, and are made uncomfortable by being reminded that not everyone does.

Personally I wouldn't mind the use of public land for privately-arranged christmas displays as long as it was apportioned fairly, and if somone wanted some land for displays from other faiths, the requests would be treated equally.

What I object to as far as public displays, are those paid for by the government or arranged by someone using their official capacity.

[calladus]

Originally posted by gnome
Personally I wouldn't mind the use of public land for privately-arranged christmas displays as long as it was apportioned fairly, and if somone wanted some land for displays from other faiths, the requests would be treated equally.


Hmmm, The Cthulhu display could become a traffic hazard. People who viewed it while driving by would go insane and wreck their cars.

Of course, the 20 foot tall Phallas in the Saturnalia display might also cause some problems.

[c4ts]

Originally posted by calladus


Hmmm, The Cthulhu display could become a traffic hazard. People who viewed it while driving by would go insane and wreck their cars.

Sweet. :D

[evildave]

It's International Kill A Conifer For Christ Day!

How could anyone be against such holidays with THIS MANY (180) holiday songs accumulated in his computer?

1000 Clowns - I Hate Fruitcake.mp3
Adam Sandler - Hanukkah Song.mp3
Adam Sandler - Santa's Not Comming.mp3
Adam Sandler - The New Hanukah Song.mp3
Adam Sandler - Turkey song.mp3
Alan Jackson - Santa's Gonna Come In A Pickup Truck.mp3
Andy Dick And The Bitches Of The Century - Santas Yule Log.mp3
Animaniacs - It Feels Like Christmas.mp3
Animaniacs - The Ghost Of Christmas Past.mp3
Arlo Guthrie - Alice's Restaurant Massacree.mp3
Arrogant Worms - Christmas In Ignace.mp3
Arrogant Worms - Christmas Sucks.mp3
Arrogant Worms - Christmas Turkey Blues.mp3
Arrogant Worms - Dad Threw Up On Christmas Day.mp3
Arrogant Worms - Have A Happy Hangover.mp3
Arrogant Worms - Jesus' Brother Bob.mp3
Arrogant Worms - Oh God, I'm Santa Clause.mp3
Arrogant Worms - Santa Got Arrested.mp3
Arrogant Worms - Santa's Gonna Kick Your Ass.mp3
Arrogant Worms - Vincent The Christmas Virus.mp3
Barenaked Ladies - Xmas Time (Oh Yeah).mp3
Ben Stiller - Ben Stiller Holiday Message.mp3
Big Bad Voodoo Daddy - Christmas Time With Kevin And Bean.mp3
Blink 182 - I Won't Be Home For.mp3
Blink182 - Happy Holidays You Bastard.mp3
Bob And Doug McKenzie - The 12 Days Of Christmas.mp3
Bob Rivers - 12 Pains Of Christmas.mp3
Bob Rivers - A Letter To Santa.mp3
Bob Rivers - All You Need Is Elves.mp3
Bob Rivers - Butch The Gay Santa Claus.mp3
Bob Rivers - Buttcracker Suite.mp3
Bob Rivers - Chipmunks Roasting On An Open Fire.mp3
Bob Rivers - Christmas Party Song.mp3
Bob Rivers - Didn't I Get This Last Year.mp3
Bob Rivers - Flu Ride.mp3
Bob Rivers - Frosty The Pervert.mp3
Bob Rivers - Grandpa Got Run Over By A Beer Truck.mp3
Bob Rivers - Hey You! Get Off My House.mp3
Bob Rivers - Holidaze (S'cuze Me, I Got Gifts To Buy).mp3
Bob Rivers - Homeless On The Holidays.mp3
Bob Rivers - I Am Santa Claus.mp3
Bob Rivers - I Came Upon A Roadkill Deer.mp3
Bob Rivers - I Saw Mommy F___ing Santa Claus.mp3
Bob Rivers - I'll Be Stoned For Xmas.mp3
Bob Rivers - I'm Dressin' Up Like Santa.mp3
Bob Rivers - It's The Most Fatening Time Of The Year.mp3
Bob Rivers - Jingle Hells Bells.mp3
Bob Rivers - Leroy The Redneck Reindeer.mp3
Bob Rivers - Menopause Is Coming To Town.mp3
Bob Rivers - O Come All Ye Grateful Dead.mp3
Bob Rivers - Parking Spaces.mp3
Bob Rivers - Paul Gilmartin's Christmas Poem.mp3
Bob Rivers - Police Stop My Car.mp3
Bob Rivers - Rummy Rocker Boy.mp3
Bob Rivers - Santa Claus Is Fooling Around.mp3
Bob Rivers - Santa Jaws.mp3
Bob Rivers - Santa's Whore.mp3
Bob Rivers - Smells Like The Night Before Christmas.mp3
Bob Rivers - The Chimney Song.mp3
Bob Rivers - The Restroom Door Said, 'Gentlemen'.mp3
Bob Rivers - There's Another Santa Claus.mp3
Bob Rivers - Tight Christmas.mp3
Bob Rivers - Toy Sack.mp3
Bob Rivers - Twisted Chipmunk Christmas.mp3
Bob Rivers - Twisted Christmas - Wreck The Malls.mp3
Bob Rivers - Who Put The Stump.mp3
Bob Rivers - Yellow Snow! Yellow Snow! Yellow Snow!.mp3
Bob Rivers - You Ain't Gettin' S___ For Christmas.mp3
Bob Rivers Twisted Christmas - I'm Getting Sued By Santa Claus.mp3
Brak - 12 Days Of Christmas.mp3
Cheech And Chong - Santa Claus And His Old Lady.mp3
Cherry Poppin' Daddies - Butch The Gay Santa Claus.mp3
Christmas - South Park - Dreidel, Dreidel, Dreidel.MP3
Christmas - South Park - Hark! The Herald Angels Sing.mp3
Christmas - South Park - I SawThree Ships.mp3
Christmas - South Park - The Most Offensive Christmas Song Ever.mp3
christmas songs - retard christmas song.mp3
Dead Kennedys - Holiday in Cambodia.mp3
Dr. Demento - Christmas Wrapping.mp3
Dr. Demento - Here Comes Santa Clause.mp3
Dr. Demento - I Saw Daddy Kissing Sant Clau.mp3
Dr. Demento - Osama Got Run Over By A Reindeer.mp3
Dr. Demento - Santa Claus Is Smoking Reefer.mp3
Dr. Demento - Santa's Lament.mp3
Dr. Demento - Sled Zeppelin.mp3
Dr. Demento - Star Wars XMas Songs.mp3
Dr. Demento - The Chipmunk Song (Christmas Don't Be Late).mp3
Dr. Demento - The Singing Dogs - Jingle Bell.mp3
Dr. Demento - The Twelve Gifts Of Christmas.mp3
Eartha Kitt - Santa Baby.mp3
Elvis Presley - Blue Christmas.mp3
Eric Cartman - O Holy Night.mp3
Eric Cartman - Swiss Colony Beef Log.mp3
Everlast - Blues For Xmas.mp3
Everlast - The Rhythm.mp3
Fruitcake - This Time I Know.mp3
George Carlin - Interview With Jesus.mp3
Harvey Danger - Sometimes You Have To Work On Christmas.mp3
Home Grown - Christmas Crush.mp3
How The Grinch Stole Christmas - You're A Mean One, Mr Grinch.mp3
Jeff Foxworthy - Redneck 12 Days Of Christmas.mp3
Jeff Foxworthy - Twas The Nite After Christmas.mp3
Jerry Springer - Jerry Christmas.mp3
Jethro Tull - Christmas Song.mp3
Jimmy Buffett - Christmas In The Caribbean.mp3
Jingle Cats - Ave Maria.mp3
Jingle Cats - Medley.mp3
Jingle Cats - We Three Kings Of Orient Are.mp3
Jingle Cats - White Christmas.mp3
Jingle Dogs - We Wish You A Merry Christmas.mp3
John Denver & The Muppets - Twelve Days Of Christmas.mp3
John Lennon - And So This Is Christmas.mp3
Jon Stewart - A Very Hanson Christmas.mp3
Kevin And Bean - Some Quality Time With Comedy Legend Bob Hope.mp3
Kevin Bloody Wilson - Amazing Grass.mp3
Kevin Bloody Wilson - Born Again Piss Tank.mp3
Kevin Bloody Wilson - Christmas On The Piss.mp3
Kevin Bloody Wilson - Christmas Without Snow.mp3
Kevin Bloody Wilson - Gave Up Wanking for Christmas.mp3
Kevin Bloody Wilson - Grandad's Finger Christmas Song.mp3
Kevin Bloody Wilson - He Only Comes Once A Year.mp3
Kevin Bloody Wilson - Hey Santa Claus You C___.mp3
Kevin Bloody Wilson - Ho Ho F___ing Ho.mp3
Kevin Bloody Wilson - Just a little christmas blowjob.mp3
Kevin Bloody Wilson - Roo Dog.mp3
Kevin Bloody Wilson - Santa's F___in' Roadies.mp3
Kevin Bloody Wilson - Santa's Stoned At Christmas.mp3
Kevin Bloody Wilson - Tattoo Of Santa.mp3
Kevin Bloody Wilson - The Builder Song.mp3
Kevin Bloody Wilson - What About Poor Old Santa Claus.mp3
Kids Of Widney High - Widney High.mp3
Larry The Cable Guy - Christmas Songs For The 90s.mp3
Loudon Wainwright III - Thanksgiving.mp3
Monty Python - Christmas In Heaven.mp3
Mr. Obvious - The Turkey.mp3
Munkafust - My Birthday's Near Christmas.mp3
Muppets - We Need A Little Christmas.mp3
MxPx - Christmas Day.mp3
Nancy White - It's So Chic To Be Pregnant At.mp3
Nerf Herder Christmas Rockers - Santa Has A Mullet.mp3
Patsy Cline - I Saw Mommy Kissing Santa Claus.mp3
Ralpha Sinatra - Christmas When You're Dead.mp3
Randy Brooks - Grandma Got Run Over By A Reindeer.mp3
Ray Stevens - I Won't Be Home For Christmas.mp3
Ray Stevens - Santa Claus Is Watching You.mp3
Red Peters - Holy S___, It's Christmas.mp3
Red Peters - You Ain't Gettin' S___ For Christmas!.mp3
Robert Earl Keen - Merry Christmas From The Family.mp3
Royal Crown Revue - Hey Santa.mp3
Save Ferris - Christmas Wrapping.mp3
Snl - Da' Bears On Thanksgiving.mp3
SNL - Season's Greetings.mp3
Sonics - Don't Believe In Christmas.mp3
South Park - Carol Of The Bells.mp3
South Park - Christmas Time In Hell.mp3
South Park - Holiday Cheer.mp3
South Park - Merry F___ing Christmas.mp3
South Park - Mr. Hankey The Christmas Poo.mp3
South Park - Santa And Jesus Duet.mp3
South Park - Timmy And Gobbles The Turkey.mp3
South Park - What The Hell Child Is This.mp3
Squirrel Nut Zippers - Carolina Christmas.mp3
Stan Freberg & Yogi Yorgesson - The Night Before Christmas.mp3
Stan Freberg - Christmas Dragnet.mp3
Stan Freberg - Green Christmas.mp3
Stan Freberg - I Want A Hippo For Christmas.mp3
Stan Freberg - Nuttin' For Christmas.mp3
Stan Freberg - The Christmas Party.mp3
The Brian Setzer Orchestra - Jingle Bells.mp3
The Kids Of Widney High - Christmas Is The Time.mp3
The Little Stinkers - I Farted On Santa's Lap.mp3
Tom Lehrer - A Christmas Carol.mp3
Tom Lehrer - Hanukkah In Santa Monica.mp3
Tyra Banks - Holiday Message.mp3
Vera Lynn - The Little Boy that Santa Claus Forgot.mp3
Weird Al Yankovic - Christmas At Ground Zero.mp3
Weird Al Yankovic - The Night Santa Went Crazy (Extra Gory Version).mp3
Weird Al Yankovic - The Night Santa Went Crazy.mp3
William S Burroughs - A Thanksgiving Prayer.mp3
XTC - Dear God.mp3

[I'll_buy_that]

Evil Dave, thanks for the links. They were all spoofs, right? :)

this one was particulary funny. it give a comparison grid between Jesus and Santa :dl:
http://thebibletruthsite.tripod.com/whynottocelebxmas.htm

I'm a heathen / pagan.

[evildave]

No. Only the Landover Baptist site was.

Jehova's Witlesses are also not supposed to celebrate Christmas.

[the_ignored]

From.............................(guess where) (http://www.rr-bb.com/showthread.php?postid=1392105#post1392105)?


Like it wasn't obvious? ;)

[epepke]

Originally posted by Upchurch
anyway, my point was that from a truly Christian point of view, a group of carolers singing songs about the glory of Christ constitutes a church. A church on city property constitutes state endorced religion, at least from a Christian point of view.

Depends on the carol, I think. Mel Torme wrote a nice secular one which still seems to get airplay.

[Upchurch]

Originally posted by the_ignored
From.............................(guess where) (http://www.rr-bb.com/showthread.php?postid=1392105#post1392105)?
If they said it's Mahummads Bath day(or whatever), would they have been angered?
Okay, I'm don't agree with everything the ACLU does, but this kind of counter argument is useless.

Hypothetical scenerios are never useful for proving a point, only illustrating one. As far as I can tell, the above post was meant to imply that the ACLU would be absolutely fine if the child had said Christmas celebrates "Mahummads Bath day" [sic], but what is the poster basing that assumption on? To my knowledge, no child has responded that Christmas celebrates Mahummads Bath day, or if s/he has, I'm unaware of the ACLU's reaction to the comment. So, what does that prove?

[Upchurch]

Originally posted by epepke

Depends on the carol, I think. Mel Torme wrote a nice secular one which still seems to get airplay. You're right. I was just assuming the caroling would have included songs like "Oh Little Town of Bethlehem" or "Silent Night", but could just have easily been the more secular "Jingle Bells", "Frosty the Snowman" or "Rudolph the Red Nosed Raindeer". It'd be interesting to find out what songs were sung.

Still if the songs were about Christ and a group of people were gathered to gether in Christ's name singing praises to him, I think that falls under.

Incidently, I found the Bible verse:Matthew 18:20

For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.Not quite the wording I remember, but I think the sentiment is the same.

[LizardPeople]

Originally posted by Upchurch
The ACLU would be absolutely fine if the child had said Christmas celebrates "Mahummads Bath day" [sic], but what is the poster basing that assumption on?

To the best of my knowledge, a school that celebrated Muhummads Bath Day would run into the same trouble with the ACLU. Any government activity that promotes one religion over another is unconstitutional.

[LizardPeople]

I really want to post this stuff on Rapture-Ready. How long does it take to get my name and password approved there anyway?

As you can see here (http://www.ljworld.com/section/schools/story/153969) the actual complaint says nothing about the children whom the rapture ready folks are focusing on, who are free to express themselves in any manner they wish. Rather, the ACLU is concerned only with the school districts presentation of religion.

[pgwenthold]

Originally posted by LizardPeople
I really want to post this stuff on Rapture-Ready. How long does it take to get my name and password approved there anyway?

As you can see here (http://www.ljworld.com/section/schools/story/153969) the actual complaint says nothing about the children whom the rapture ready folks are focusing on, who are free to express themselves in any manner they wish. Rather, the ACLU is concerned only with the school districts presentation of religion.

This is awesome. Interesting the way that the ACLU worded it:


Specifically, we ask you to assure us that the following allegations are unfounded:
• Christian clergy, dressed in a Santa Claus suit may proselytize a sectarian message in USD 348 public schools in the near future

Thus, the ACLU is objecting to Christian clergy who may proselytize a sectarian message.

Note the school board's potential out here: all they would have to do is to assure that they aren't having a Christian clergy proselytize. Shoot, get someone else to play Santa. What does it say about their motivation when the board decides to cancel the visit by Santa as opposed to just getting someone else who isn't clergy?

[LizardPeople]

Originally posted by pgwenthold

Get someone else to play Santa.

It's even easier then that - Let the clergyman play Santa, but don't let him proselytize. Problem solved.

[pgwenthold]

Originally posted by LizardPeople


It's even easier then that - Let the clergyman play Santa, but don't let him proselytize. Problem solved.

I think that one sounds easier than it is. Clergymen can't help but proselytize.

But yes, if they could get him to stop, then sure...

[LizardPeople]

I'm all psyched up to go over to Rapture Ready and rip them a new one. It's been over 24 hours. How long does it take to approve one little acount anyway?

[LizardPeople]

Still waiting. Did they rapture while I wasn't looking or what?

[DialecticMaterialist]

IMO, Christimas, like Halloween, Marriage, and law has evolved into a tradition for which there is secular merit. Just like Christmas itself evolved from pagan traditions.

The real reason people celebrate Christmas, imo, is presents, feast and family. If I was asked for example, whether to remove the feast/presents or the Christian birth scenes and Bible quoting, I'd likely remove the Christian reference. As would most people I believe.

I personally see no problem then with a Christmas devoid of nativity scenes, because those type of things are not essential.

[pgwenthold]

Originally posted by DialecticMaterialist
IMO, Christimas, like Halloween, Marriage, and law has evolved into a tradition for which there is secular merit. Just like Christmas itself evolved from pagan traditions.

I always figure there are basically two motivations for successful "holidays": family or sex.

Family holidays are things like Christmas, Easter, Mother's Day, Father's Day. Weddings are in this same vein. 4th of July is part this, and Labor Day fits in with family outings.

Sex holidays include the obvious, Valentine's Day, but also includes Halloween, St Patrick's Day, New Year's Eve, and, to a lesser extent, also the 4th. While Halloween and St Patrick's Day aren't explicitly sex, they are driven by the bar scene which in turn is driven by sex. The sex part of the 4th comes from the partying leading to... (anyone who suggests that Halloween is a kid's holiday has never been out to the bars on that night)

So if your holiday isn't associated with a family activity or doesn't lead to sex, it isn't going to sell and become popular. Now, if someone can figure out how to get folks laid because of Columbus Day, it will really change the perspective on that. Notice that you don't need to invoke religion to explain any of it.

BTW, this just covers the modern perspective. It's not all that obvious that the Pagan origins for even Christmas and Easter weren't driven by sex (keeping warm on the longest day of the year...)