Residents want sign promoting atheism removed [Archive]

Questioninggeller

4th July 2009, 08:12 PM

In James Randi's residence, Fort Lauderdale:

Residents want sign promoting atheism removed
wsvn.com (http://www.wsvn.com/news/articles/local/MI124870/)
July 2, 2009

FORT LAUDERDALE, Fla. (WSVN) -- Community residents are protesting a billboard they call offensive to Christians.

The recruitment billboard put up by the Florida Atheist and Secular Humanist Society stands just east of Interstate 95 on Sunrise Boulevard and 27th Avenue, next to a business owned by an African-American preacher.

The members of the community cite two main problems: born-again Christians own the business right next to the sign, and the billboard is located right in the middle of an African-American community.

Neighboring businesses have called to try to get the sign removed. "Muslim, Jew, Hindu, Christian, whoever you are, we all believe in a spiritual higher being. When you have something like this here, people don't want to come and patronize us anymore," said Theodore Hamilton, an employee at a nearby business. "We don't agree with this. We don't like this here in our community, and this is a spiritual based community."

The sign states: "Being a good person doesn't require God. Don't believe in God? You're not alone. www.FreeThoughFlorida.com."
...
The billboard sponsors said they would like the community to show them the same tolerance they fought for during the civil rights era. "The women and blacks in this neighborhood, they've been discriminated before, in the recent past, as early as 30, 40 years ago," Loukinen said, "and yet, they have no problem discriminating against another group, whether it be gays or atheists."

This billboard is expected to be up for four weeks.

Full: wsvn.com (http://www.wsvn.com/news/articles/local/MI124870/) (follow the link for video)

Skeptic Ginger

4th July 2009, 09:12 PM

I posted the following in the comment section:

Shame on the god believers complaining about someone else's free speech.

ClassyElf

4th July 2009, 09:17 PM

I find it more than a little ironic that the protesters are largely African-American.

(Yeah, I realize I'm judging them based on their oppressed history, but the irony stands. )

Whiplash

4th July 2009, 09:19 PM

thaiboxerken

4th July 2009, 09:19 PM

MMM...yea. They don't have any real legal case here. It's BS. Freaking Xians....they support freedom of speech, except when it offends them.

thaiboxerken

4th July 2009, 09:22 PM

The religious ones are over-reacting.. but I always still wonder about the motivation for these types of things to begin with. It seems to be confrontational to me. At the very least, I can't see how any sensible person could go into the process of making a sign like that and not expect to have people screaming at them about it. It's asking for trouble.

Do you feel the same of the thousands of billboards across the nation that advertise christianity? I've seen some that have actually said "if you don't believe in Jesus, you'll go to hell." Christians in the USA tend to want special rights when it comes to their religion. All I can say to these people is "eff you."

Do you actually think that the message that "being a good person doesn't require a god" is particularly offensive? Why or why not?

Whiplash

4th July 2009, 09:33 PM

Do you feel the same of the thousands of billboards across the nation that advertise christianity? I've seen some that have actually said "if you don't believe in Jesus, you'll go to hell." Christians in the USA tend to want special rights when it comes to their religion. All I can say to these people is "eff you."

Do you actually think that the message that "being a good person doesn't require a god" is particularly offensive? Why or why not?

No, I don't find the message in any way offensive. I did say I think the religious people are over-reacting. They are showing that they are insecure in their beliefs.

And I do feel the same about Christian (or any religious) billboards. I'd rather people not proselytize at all. I hate to see them too, honestly.

I just feel that sometimes people on the atheist side go a little too far in trying to provoke reaction, or with some of their ridicule. I've stated many times that I believe it to be a completely ineffective way of changing minds. It's my experience it hardens people in their position by making them angry and defensive, and therefore less open to hear what you have to say. And I really feel such methods also only serve as a "back slapping moment" or "high five moment" for the people who are doing the ridicule. I find it childish.

As I've also stated before, I was raised in a strongly religious family. I've lost my faith completely, but maybe sometimes I take up for them defensivley because I share some common roots.

thaiboxerken

4th July 2009, 09:36 PM

I just feel that sometimes people on the atheist side go a little too far in trying to provoke reaction, or with some of their ridicule.

And WTF does this have to do with this particular billboard?

Whiplash

4th July 2009, 09:38 PM

Ron_Tomkins

4th July 2009, 09:41 PM

In James Randi's residence, Fort Lauderdale:

Full: wsvn.com (http://www.wsvn.com/news/articles/local/MI124870/) (follow the link for video)

Well, personally I can't say I'm amazed. When I went to visit Randi last year, one of the first things that struck me and that I found ironic was that the area where the JREF is located is filled with churches of all kinds and psychic services

So it's not surprising that such a woo oriented community would be reacting to this kind of thing

ClassyElf

4th July 2009, 09:42 PM

As I said, I find it hard to believe that the person who made it did so thinking it wouldn't cause the slightest problem at all. I question what it's purpose is. I'm saying I think it's possible it was purposely made to provoke a reaction.

I'd agree. I think the sign's purpose likely was to get debate going.

Unfortunately, the problem here is that christians don't debate. Christians protest to have their opponents arguments taken down so they don't have to think about them.

Whiplash

4th July 2009, 09:47 PM

You are correct about that. I suffer that problem every family get together, as my Grandmother is constantly harping me to return to church and how it'll fix all my problems and make my life so wonderful. They not only do not want to debate, but the very idea of debate makes them very upset. They actually feel that for us, as mere humans, to even question or debate "God's Will" is so incredibly blasphemous that I should be ashamed for trying to do so.

I agree with you guys for the most part, I think I just got a little defensive because, at the same time, I know that for my Mother and Grandmother their beliefs are everything. They aren't hurting anyone, and if it could be shown to them they are wrong, it would destroy their worlds. I figure we will eventually grow beyond a need for religion, I just don't see a need to try to force the battle constantly in a world where it is the status quo virtually everywhere, billions strong. I think people delude themselves into thinking they personally are going to save the world from religion, when it's likely to take hundereds of years or more (IMO). And then I think again of my family, and don't want to see them hurt. And I assure you, they aren't hurting anyone.

Quinn

4th July 2009, 09:56 PM

As I said, I find it hard to believe that the person who made it did so thinking it wouldn't cause the slightest problem at all. I question what it's purpose is. I'm saying I think it's possible it was purposely made to provoke a reaction.

Possible, yes. But which seems more likely: that the organization put it there to antagonize believers, or that they did it to make other non-believers aware of the organization?

Towlie

4th July 2009, 10:07 PM

The sign states: "Being a good person doesn't require God. Don't believe in God? You're not alone. www.FreeThoughFlorida.com." Not exactly. The sign has the correct URL (http://www.freethoughtflorida.com/). The WSVN website (http://www.wsvn.com/news/articles/local/MI124870/) has it wrong.

MattusMaximus

4th July 2009, 10:29 PM

The irony of this situation is that by complaining about it, the pissed-off Xians are drawing more attention to it which will result in even more non-believers learning about it & eventually supporting the organization running the ad campaign.

Something very similar happened in California last year when the FFRF group ran billboards there. Local religious nuts got pissed off, made a big deal about it in the press, and this resulted in even more non-believers coming out of the closet & joining FFRF.

Let the crybabies complain, I say. It shows just how stupid & immature they are, and ironically they're helping us.

epeeist

4th July 2009, 10:54 PM

ClassyElf

4th July 2009, 11:08 PM

One should try and avoid hypocrisy. If - for instance - a billboard saying "Recant, Kant is not enough - you need God to be good" was put up next to the headquarters of a secular humanist organization or something, I expect there would be almost exactly the same complaint and expressions of annoyance made the other way round ("those pushy theists" or whatever).

Freedom of speech doesn't mean one has to like that speech. If e.g. PETA put up a billboard beside a steakhouse, I'd expect the owner of the steakhouse might be upset. That doesn't necessarily mean there's legal recourse (nor that there should be), but to criticize the owner in such a situation for being upset and wanting the sign gone, would be silly.

Similarly here, to express outrage for a perfectly normal reaction that one would have if the shoe was on the other foot is - well, irrational!

It would be irrational and hypocritical if we had evidence that such an event has occurred before and we still said that secular humanists wouldn't protest against the sign.

Can you provide an instance where a secular humanist group has publicly acted against free speech similarly to this?

Edit: If you can't, please post in this thread letting me know that you can't.

Achán hiNidráne

4th July 2009, 11:12 PM

The religious ones are over-reacting.. but I always still wonder about the motivation for these types of things to begin with. It seems to be confrontational to me.

The sign says "Being a good person doesn't require God. Don't believe in God? You're not alone."

You think THAT is confrontational?

How milquetoast and mealy-mouthed do non-theists have to in their public speech be to satisfy the religionist mobs? Maybe it would just be better if we stayed in the closet?

At the very least, I can't see how any sensible person could go into the process of making a sign like that and not expect to have people screaming at them about it. It's asking for trouble.

Oh, so it's blame the victim. You ******* make me sick! :mad:

aggle-rithm

4th July 2009, 11:31 PM

I've stated many times that I believe it to be a completely ineffective way of changing minds.

I'm not sure what you mean by changing minds...would this be "try to get them to abandon the idea of God", or "try to get them to respect the rights of others not to believe in God"?

I think the second goal is one that everyone, atheist or otherwise, should strive for.

Ron_Tomkins

4th July 2009, 11:37 PM

I really, honestly, wouldn't worry much about this

In my opinion, Atheism is becoming more and more common in the world population, as a kind of emerging common sense

A bunch of people making some sign against Atheism is only going to make them look sillier

It seems like mankind is drifting more and more towards skepticism
It's my impression at least
Either way, some people making some signs isn't going to do much

epeeist

4th July 2009, 11:52 PM

It would be irrational and hypocritical if we had evidence that such an event has occurred before and we still said that secular humanists wouldn't protest against the sign.

Can you provide an instance where a secular humanist group has publicly acted against free speech similarly to this?

Edit: If you can't, please post in this thread letting me know that you can't.

Are you arguing that, if the situation I posited occurred, there would be no complaints by atheists? I doubt that very much.

Valuing free speech doesn't mean one has to like it. If e.g. I see an advertisement that offends me, I am free to not buy the product, complain to the company, try and start a boycott, whatever, and none of that is anti-free-speech. If I am an employer and refuse to hire someone for insulting me during the interview, that's not anti-free-speech, the person is free to say what they want, I am free to refuse to employ who I want (exceptions if the reason was in violation of anti-discrimination laws).

Complaining about this billboard or wanting it removed is not "acting against free speech", it's engaging in free speech. Asking if there's any legal remedy is not "acting against free speech", it's asking a legal question. Engaging in illegal behaviour, vandalizing the billboard, whatever, would be acting against free speech and none of that seems to have occurred.

A couple of examples showing (presumably) atheist annoyance with billboards generally (not next to a building) giving a contrary message (admittedly stronger than the atheist example in the second instance):

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2009/6/3/03311/89679

http://atheism.about.com/b/2008/02/12/kegerreis-outdoor-advertising-anti-atheist-bigotry-is-ok.htm

If someone (atheist or not) contacted the relevant billboard owner or advertising agency and complained, that would not be anti-free-speech.

A truly critical thinker - a freethinker, if you will - would, I think, recognize the merit of my argument (if the shoe were on the other foot...) rather than engage in the "if you don't post a link, it doesn't exist" sort of argument.

thaiboxerken

5th July 2009, 12:02 AM

Are you arguing that, if the situation I posited occurred, there would be no complaints by atheists? I doubt that very much.

There have been many such billboards throughout the USA of such ilk. I've actually seen billboards that say "don't beleive in Jesus? Hope you like the heat." and more. This atheist billboard, and all of the others I've heard of, do not actually condemn people for believing in a god. They try to tell people that atheists are just as decent as they are, with morals and values.

That being said, if I had enough disposable income, I would buy some billboards that would say some extremely offensive things about religion.

Aepervius

5th July 2009, 12:15 AM

Tbut I always still wonder about the motivation for these types of things to begin with. It seems to be confrontational to me. At the very least, I can't see how any sensible person could go into the process of making a sign like that and not expect to have people screaming at them about it. It's asking for trouble.

How do you expect atheist to help other or to find each other or do anything , when we have 1) no official "church" building 2) no official place with special history (no vatican, no mecca) 3) no way to recognize each other in the street ?

I see only a few ways, all include advertising a way or another.

It is not limited to atheism, but to any sort of stuff which is not visible on the persons. Stamp collecting, atheism, roleplaying games, and heck, batman figure collecting from 1967 to 1972 , all other date excluded.

There is NOTHING provocative in that ad, as it does not address believer, but non-believer (at least in ,my POV).

ALONE The fact that you find it provocative to do such advertising is IMHO a demonstration of a BIG SKEWING in favor of all religions.

I'd agree. I think the sign's purpose likely was to get debate going.

SAme comment to you. PROPOSE a sign to gather other like minded atheist you find less provocative. HECK, it is totally tame by all standard I ever saw.

ClassyElf

5th July 2009, 12:27 AM

SAme comment to you. PROPOSE a sign to gather other like minded atheist you find less provocative. HECK, it is totally tame by all standard I ever saw.

What do you have against debate? I hole-heartedly approve of the sign as it is and I strongly hope that it brings debate over religion into the public's conversations.

Are you arguing that, if the situation I posited occurred, there would be no complaints by atheists? I doubt that very much.

No, I'm arguing that, if the situation you posited occurred, there would not be many atheists demonstrating for the sign to be taken down.

Complaining about this billboard or wanting it removed is not "acting against free speech".

Agreed. I see my error. Though I still think that protesting for a billboard to be removed makes somebody a dick.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2009/6/3/03311/89679

http://atheism.about.com/b/2008/02/12/kegerreis-outdoor-advertising-anti-atheist-bigotry-is-ok.htm

Thank you. Though I'd like to point out that these people were not calling for signs to be taken down, which is what I have a problem with.

A truly critical thinker - a freethinker, if you will - would, I think, recognize the merit of my argument (if the shoe were on the other foot...) rather than engage in the "if you don't post a link, it doesn't exist" sort of argument.

Agreed. I think you're right. Some atheists would call for signs to be taken down. I don't think that many would, but I'm quite sure that some would. The ones that would are dicks and it doesn't make me a hypocrite if I say that people that protest in order to have signs taken down are absolute dicks.

epeeist

5th July 2009, 12:43 AM

I agree this sign is relatively tame and inoffensive for its content, I just find its location (assuming it was deliberately chosen to be next to a church) understandably bothersome to many people.

I also agree that I find some of the other contrary examples (anti-atheist more than than anti-atheism) more offensive, and arguably unChristian. In the sense that, if one states "you're going to hell for your beliefs" or something to that effect, that does NOT encourage someone to explore Christianity and I suspect would drive even those people who might otherwise be interested in learning something about Christianity even further away from such desire. That is, it seems the opposite of spreading the Gospel.

Something like "Skeptical about Christianity? It's not just you, let us tell you about Thomas the doubter..." would be less offensive, somewhat humorous, and while probably totally unpersuasive to most atheists, at least probably would not drive most even further away from any interest in Christianity.

Aepervius

5th July 2009, 12:46 AM

What do you have against debate? I hole-heartedly approve of the sign as it is and I strongly hope that it brings debate over religion into the public's conversations.

I have nothing against debate, I jsut think that saying the sign was here to "provocate a debate or reaction" is groundless, and that there is no WAY to genuinely advertising an atheist club if by your standard and those of whiplash it was to "debate".

To call that sign to call on a debate or even a provocation, or draw a reaction is IMHO placing a HIGHER standard to respect sensitivities of other group on atheist.

That is why I call all which says it was to provocate a debate or a reaction, to tell us what you would use as a sentence to promote an atheist club or group. By the reaction here "atheist group call 555-56734 to participate" is probably the only one which would be acceptable and not provocating or asking for a debate or reaction. And even then I am not sure.

UnrepentantSinner

5th July 2009, 12:47 AM

I'm not a big fan of these sorts of billboards (agree with Whiplash in post #7) and the protestors can STFU about it, but I take issue with the "atheist discrimination" tag. People who work and live in the proximity of the billboard are bitching about it. How is that "discrimination*"?

Well, personally I can't say I'm amazed. When I went to visit Randi last year, one of the first things that struck me and that I found ironic was that the area where the JREF is located is filled with churches of all kinds and psychic services

So it's not surprising that such a woo oriented community would be reacting to this kind of thing

You haven't been in the South much have you? ;) It is Ft. Lauderdale, but it's still Florida.

* Before some of you post a screed about how the stupid xians are oppressing us or whatever, please stop and try to formulate a rational response to my question.

Aepervius

5th July 2009, 12:52 AM

I agree this sign is relatively tame and inoffensive for its content, I just find its location (assuming it was deliberately chosen to be next to a church) understandably bothersome to many people.

How big is the density of church there ? I got to understand it was quite dense. Now how far was it from any church ? Where are placed the billboard ? And don't forget the billboard was apparently chosen by the company, not by the group : "I apologize if it's going to affect any business. That's definitely not our intention, and we didn't choose this area specifically. This was one of the billboards available to us."

In my home city there was one church every 2 km (~2200 yards) far more dense if you count convent, chapelle, and altars. If you say that 300 yards is too near a place of worship, there was NO WAY whatsoever to advertise atheism there.

ETA: and to use some part of a SPECIFIC religion holy book or myth to advertise atheism (thomas the doubter) is far more offensive for that specific religion than a tame "being a good person does not require god".

Walter Wayne

5th July 2009, 01:06 AM

Possible, yes. But which seems more likely: that the organization put it there to antagonize believers, or that they did it to make other non-believers aware of the organization?I think it is more likely both than exclusively one or the other. Putting the billboard where it is most likely to antagonize believers gets one a little bit of free advertising on the side when it hits the news. Thus reaching a much larger number of non-believers.

GreyICE

5th July 2009, 01:34 AM

Hokulele

5th July 2009, 01:42 AM

http://www.providence.edu/polisci/cammarano/article-Masters.htm
http://www.freedomforum.org/templates/document.asp?documentID=16471
http://web.archive.org/web/19971122003414/www.aclu.org/news/n012397b.html
http://www.aclu.org/studentsrights/religion/12811prs20020711.html

Wow, that was easy. The ACLU has countless times defended Christians' right to free speech. Hate to say it, the religious don't have a monopoly on being dicks.

Odd, every one of those articles discusses local government agencies or governmental bodies (other than the one with the broken link). None of them mention secular humanist groups, as Aepervius ClassyElf was talking about in his/her post.

I guess it wasn't very easy after all...

BenBurch

5th July 2009, 02:10 AM

Whiplash,

I fail to see how this board could have been any more neutral in its language?

Care to re-phrase the message for me in a way you would believe was suitable?

-Ben

kimota

5th July 2009, 03:33 AM

But, business owners said, the sign has affected their income. Aavion McDonald works at the hair and beauty salon located right below the billboard. "There are people that come in here complaining about the sign," he said, "and that's not good for the business, and it's not good for the neighborhood."

Just as the article might draw more attention to FreeThoughtFlorida, that attention works both ways.
If you have people entering your business, even if it is to complain about something you have no control over, why can't you utilize that to increase your business? If your business is pro-Christianity or whatever other religion, make that abundantly clear and encourage patronage from anyone who walks in the door.

Similar billboards in Portland, OR didn't cause much of a stir, even though they were up during last Christmas season.
http://www.oregonlive.com/news/index.ssf/2009/01/no_religion_signs_draw_little.html

realpaladin

5th July 2009, 03:37 AM

Well, I put my money where my mouth is and chipped in.

Ethnikos

5th July 2009, 03:46 AM

"Don't Believe In God? You Can Still Be A Good Person."
I think that would have been a better way to word it, to not make Christians feel defensive.
I would rather be around a good atheist than a bad person who claims to believe in Jesus. My philosophy is, the more someone claims they love Jesus, the more likely they do not. This is especially true, I think, when it comes to business. If their card has a cross and a fish on it, you should be concerned about being ripped off. Christians should have their own billboard saying:
"If You Are Not A Good Person, Stop Claiming To Be A Christian."

Monketey Ghost

5th July 2009, 04:24 AM

billydkid

5th July 2009, 06:46 AM

Free speech is all fine and good as long as people don't go around saying anything that bothers anybody! I once heard Bill Buckley say that the reason we have free speech is so that people can express "good" speech.

Tricky

5th July 2009, 07:50 AM

As I said, I find it hard to believe that the person who made it did so thinking it wouldn't cause the slightest problem at all. I question what it's purpose is. I'm saying I think it's possible it was purposely made to provoke a reaction.
Oh, I'm sure it was put there to provoke a reaction. They cannot possibly have thought it wouldn't. But when a group is fighting for widespread acceptance, sometimes the first step is to speak out (in a nice way) in a place where you will challenge the status quo.

I'm pretty sure they were counting on the community to react with anger, thereby making themselves look intolerant.

chillzero

5th July 2009, 08:09 AM

Wait a minute ....
The members of the community cite two main problems: born-again Christians own the business right next to the sign, and the billboard is located right in the middle of an African-American community.

... African-Americans can't be atheists?

Andrewsarchus

5th July 2009, 08:16 AM

To me anyway, the sign is essentially saying "2+2=4, Don't believe in God, you're not alone..."

GreyICE

5th July 2009, 09:04 AM

Odd, every one of those articles discusses local government agencies or governmental bodies (other than the one with the broken link). None of them mention secular humanist groups, as Aepervius ClassyElf was talking about in his/her post.

I guess it wasn't very easy after all...

Sorry, none of the links are broken, but I guess you did leave yourself an out there.

Now I have to know. Are you on board with this ridiculous claim that there's never been an atheist (I'm sorry, secular humanist) organization that has occasionally gotten a little hysterical and wandered into weird territory? If so I'll actually make some effort to find lots of stuff that morons have done. Sure, I'm certain you could pile up the Christian garbage into a much higher stack, but whenever someone says never like their crap don't stink same as everyone else's, I get tickled.

So, you really on board with it? On record?

tsig

5th July 2009, 09:31 AM

Sorry, none of the links are broken, but I guess you did leave yourself an out there.

Now I have to know. Are you on board with this ridiculous claim that there's never been an atheist (I'm sorry, secular humanist) organization that has occasionally gotten a little hysterical and wandered into weird territory? If so I'll actually make some effort to find lots of stuff that morons have done. Sure, I'm certain you could pile up the Christian garbage into a much higher stack, but whenever someone says never like their crap don't stink same as everyone else's, I get tickled.

So, you really on board with it? On record?

You sure read a lot more into "never' than I ever did.

GreyICE

5th July 2009, 09:49 AM

You sure read a lot more into "never' than I ever did.

Never. Not ever. It hasn't happened.

Maybe there's some definition of never where it means "well, it wasn't too frequent." It could be used by a President to say something like "I never said Iraq and the Al Qaeda were connected!"

Assuming we understand English at least a little bit, it's not a good definition.

MattusMaximus

5th July 2009, 10:24 AM

Wow, an interesting amount of finger pointing going on here. It's interesting how freedom of speech & expression works, isn't it?

5th July 2009, 10:27 AM

pffff, they think it is offensive?
do they have a clue how offensive it is to us Atheists to be surounded by Churches, Crosses and statues of "Holy" people and such crap. even in our constitutions their fantasy creature gets mentioned. and we shall not be offended or what?

set up another billboard, a bigger one.

MattusMaximus

5th July 2009, 10:30 AM

People forget that freedom of speech doesn't equate to the freedom to not be offended. This goes both ways.

That said, I like the sign, and I like even more that a bunch of whiny xians are getting their knickers in a twist about it and giving it even more attention.

tsig

5th July 2009, 10:37 AM

Never. Not ever. It hasn't happened.

Maybe there's some definition of never where it means "well, it wasn't too frequent." It could be used by a President to say something like "I never said Iraq and the Al Qaeda were connected!"

Assuming we understand English at least a little bit, it's not a good definition.

I was referring to this part of your post:

"whenever someone says never like their crap don't stink same as everyone else's, I get tickled."

Elizabeth I

5th July 2009, 10:41 AM

As I said, I find it hard to believe that the person who made it did so thinking it wouldn't cause the slightest problem at all. I question what it's purpose is. I'm saying I think it's possible it was purposely made to provoke a reaction.

...as opposed to every other billboard in the world, which was put up with the express hope that it would be ignored and have no effect at all...

:rolleyes:

tsig

5th July 2009, 10:57 AM

...as opposed to every other billboard in the world, which was put up with the express hope that it would be ignored and have no effect at all...

:rolleyes:

It's the complete double standard that bugs me. Churches can put up signs that tell me I'm going to hell and that's ok, express the least doubt and you are attacking religion.

Safe-Keeper

5th July 2009, 10:57 AM

* Safe-Keeper looks at link.
Wow. How does that sign 'promote atheism'? How is it provocative?

Looks to me to be just another 'atheist support ad', meant for fellow repressed non believers. The reaction of the community demonstrates just how much of a need there is for such a sign. Seriously, if any of you lived there, would you dare 'come out of the closet'? Think not.

Oh, and "you can't have an atheist sign in our area because we're African Americans"? What do they call people in the States who have African ancestry and subscribe to Islam or other religions, or who have no faith? Pseudo-Afro-Americans:rolleyes:?

I've seen some that have actually said "if you don't believe in Jesus, you'll go to hell."But that's their belief...:rolleyes:

The members of the community cite two main problems: born-again Christians own the business right next to the signSeeing the whole community is Christian, that shouldn't come as a surprise. What, were they supposed to trawl the town until they found an area dominated by atheists? Good freaking luck.

Neighboring businesses have called to try to get the sign removed. "Muslim, Jew, Hindu, Christian, whoever you are, we all believe in a spiritual higher being. When you have something like this here, people don't want to come and patronize us anymore,"Disgusting. How is that different from whites saying sixty years ago that "everyone in this neighbourhood is white, and when we have ****** posters right outside our store, no one wants to patronize us"? Let me get this straight - they live in a neighhborhood of bigoted creeps who hate atheist and therefore the atheists should lie low and stay in the closet?

Disgusting.

Bob Klase

5th July 2009, 10:59 AM

A couple of examples showing (presumably) atheist annoyance with billboards generally (not next to a building) giving a contrary message (admittedly stronger than the atheist example in the second instance):

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2009/6/3/03311/89679

http://atheism.about.com/b/2008/02/12/kegerreis-outdoor-advertising-anti-atheist-bigotry-is-ok.htm

You don't see a difference between annoyance with dishonesty and annoyance with a message you just don't like? I don't see a valid comparison between an atheist billboard where the message is "You're not alone if you don't believe in god" and theist billboards where the message is "Atheists Hate America?" and "Atheists are going to murder you".

RoboTimbo

5th July 2009, 11:00 AM

Oh, I'm sure it was put there to provoke a reaction. They cannot possibly have thought it wouldn't. But when a group is fighting for widespread acceptance, sometimes the first step is to speak out (in a nice way) in a place where you will challenge the status quo.

I'm pretty sure they were counting on the community to react with anger, thereby making themselves look intolerant.

I'd imagine there are few spots it could have been placed where it wouldn't provoke a reaction.

Bob Klase

5th July 2009, 11:04 AM

This is especially true, I think, when it comes to business. If their card has a cross and a fish on it, you should be concerned about being ripped off. Christians should have their own billboard saying:
"If You Are Not A Good Person, Stop Claiming To Be A Christian."

More than once in the years I lived in Alabama people trying to sell me something would point out that they were 'good Christian folk, I wouldn't lie to you'. In one case the salesman brought out a bible and told me how honest he was shortly after I'd already caught him in two intentionally deceptive claims and just before I pointed out an outright lie he'd just told me.

Safe-Keeper

5th July 2009, 11:11 AM

Thanks, Bob. Let's compare the two, shall we?

Christians: http://img199.imageshack.us/img199/5393/aigbillboard.jpg
Atheists: http://www.wsvn.com/images/news_articles/389x205/090630_controversial_sign.jpg

One sign says to me that there are others like me, and that we're not as evil as people claim.
The other sign points a gun at my face and basically says there's nothing wrong with shooting me.

And we are the bad guys.

Sickening.

Elizabeth I

5th July 2009, 11:28 AM

It's the complete double standard that bugs me. Churches can put up signs that tell me I'm going to hell and that's ok, express the least doubt and you are attacking religion.

Yep.

Safe-Keeper

5th July 2009, 11:30 AM

Makes me very, very, very happy that my Christian friends are all great people:).

GreyICE

5th July 2009, 11:39 AM

I was referring to this part of your post:

"whenever someone says never like their crap don't stink same as everyone else's, I get tickled."

Yep. "A good Christian would never..." "An atheist would never..." "A Secular Humanist organization would never..." "A democrat would never..." "A Frenchman would never..."

Towlie

5th July 2009, 12:44 PM

Christians: http://img199.imageshack.us/img199/5393/aigbillboard.jpg

The other sign points a gun at my face and basically says there's nothing wrong with shooting me.Not exactly. The assertion made by the Answers in Genesis billboard is "If God doesn't matter to him, do you?"

In other words, the kid with the gun is an atheist and therefore has no moral inhibition against shooting you. It's an outrageous message, but not quite the same as your interpretation.

However, the Answers in Genesis group did produce a video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=miULdI-qocg) with the same kid pointing the same gun, but the spoken message at the end is "If you don't matter to God, you don't matter to anyone." This is very different from the billboard message and is essentially what you stated above: "Warning! Don't be an atheist or we will shoot you."

miULdI-qocg
I suspect the spoken message was a slip of the tongue triggered by hatred of atheists on the part of the spokesman, and even now the Answers in Genesis people might not realize the huge difference between those two versions of their message.

thaiboxerken

5th July 2009, 12:56 PM

That is one creepy commercial.

Safe-Keeper

5th July 2009, 01:00 PM

That is one creepy commercial.

GreyICE

5th July 2009, 01:16 PM

Not exactly. The assertion made by the Answers in Genesis billboard is "If God doesn't matter to him, do you?"

In other words, the kid with the gun is an atheist and therefore has no moral inhibition against shooting you. It's an outrageous message, but not quite the same as your interpretation.

However, the Answers in Genesis group did produce a video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=miULdI-qocg) with the same kid pointing the same gun, but the spoken message at the end is "If you don't matter to God, you don't matter to anyone." This is very different from the billboard message and is essentially what you stated above: "Warning! Don't be an atheist or we will shoot you."

miULdI-qocg
I suspect the spoken message was a slip of the tongue triggered by hatred of atheists on the part of the spokesman, and even now the Answers in Genesis people might not realize the huge difference between those two versions of their message.
You're giving them too much credit. My basic assumption is they lack the understanding of grammar necessary to appreciate the difference.

tsig

5th July 2009, 01:39 PM

Yep. "A good Christian would never..." "An atheist would never..." "A Secular Humanist organization would never..." "A democrat would never..." "A Frenchman would never..."

Well then it's a good thing that no one said those things in this thread.

thaiboxerken

5th July 2009, 01:41 PM

Freedom of speech only counts if you are glorifying Jesus Christ!

Skeptic Ginger

5th July 2009, 04:22 PM

Possible, yes. But which seems more likely: that the organization put it there to antagonize believers, or that they did it to make other non-believers aware of the organization?The concept, "telling people it is OK to not believe in gods, there are others like you out there" isn't on your list of possible motives. Allow me to add it for you. :rolleyes:

Skeptic Ginger

5th July 2009, 04:30 PM

You don't see a difference between annoyance with dishonesty and annoyance with a message you just don't like? I don't see a valid comparison between an atheist billboard where the message is "You're not alone if you don't believe in god" and theist billboards where the message is "Atheists Hate America?" and "Atheists are going to murder you".Exactly.

And all the rhetoric about mattering to god, not a message saying atheists are murderous thugs, not buying it.

God loves all his children, unconditionally according to the Christian hypocrisy. The only interpretation one can make from that gun in your face billboard is that if God doesn't matter to someone, they would have no reason not to be a murderous thug.

Ron_Tomkins

5th July 2009, 05:34 PM

You haven't been in the South much have you? ;) It is Ft. Lauderdale, but it's still Florida.

Actually I've been mostly in Miami and not so much Fort Lauderdale. It just struck me as ironic that the area where the JREF is located was particularly filled with churches and psychic services

Towlie

5th July 2009, 06:58 PM

The only interpretation one can make from that gun in your face billboard is that if God doesn't matter to someone, they would have no reason not to be a murderous thug.Because they used a young kid, my most generous guess is that they're saying if you don't teach your kid about God he'll become a murderer.

I've been following religious debates for 20 or 30 years now and it appears to me that this meme that moral behavior comes exclusively from religion has begun to gain significant popularity recently. I believe it's continuing to spread, and I'm afraid a slogan like "Being a good person doesn't require God" is just not good enough. To me, that sounds as weak as a cigarette company saying "Living to be 100 doesn't require giving up smoking." In both cases, one can easily counter with "but it helps".

We need something better.

UnrepentantSinner

5th July 2009, 10:16 PM

It's the complete double standard that bugs me. Churches can put up signs that tell me I'm going to hell and that's ok, express the least doubt and you are attacking religion.

This argument never ceases to grate on me. Since we don't believe in hell, why should such a sign/billboard bother us? It does't bother me except for the eyestrain I get while rolling them. And by the way, there's nothing stopping us atheists from doing what the folks in the story have done which is simply organize and bitch about a billboard we don't like. There's no double standard from what I can see.

More than once in the years I lived in Alabama people trying to sell me something would point out that they were 'good Christian folk, I wouldn't lie to you'. In one case the salesman brought out a bible and told me how honest he was shortly after I'd already caught him in two intentionally deceptive claims and just before I pointed out an outright lie he'd just told me.

Ugh! The number of billboards and business cards I've seen with Ichtyos on them in Dallas is almost sickening.

Look Delbert, since most of the businesses that use that sort of pandering are trade contractors - and this is Dallas, not BFT, we'd be much more impressed if you put your BBB rating in your ad or stated explicitly on your card that you don't hire illegals to hang our drywall or pour our concrete.

UnrepentantSinner

5th July 2009, 10:24 PM

Actually I've been mostly in Miami and not so much Fort Lauderdale. It just struck me as ironic that the area where the JREF is located was particularly filled with churches and psychic services

Which Randi noted during TAM 1. He pointed out that while 200ish of us were gathered to singular conference dedicated to skepticism and critical thinking, just up Rt. 1 there were 20,000 who gathered weekly at the Coral Ridge church, home of the stutter inducingly credulous D. James Kennedy.

But getting away from the reality of Florida and back to your note about the irony of the location of JREFs HQ... apart from the periodic hurricane, can you blame Randi for wanting to be located there? :D At TAM 1 I rented a convertible and drove around with the top down in February and got a sunburn. I can't even do that in Texas!

linusrichard

5th July 2009, 10:46 PM

The nerve of these atheists. To have the sheer gall to point out that they (1) exist and (2) are not necessarily evil... I can see why these signs should be torn down posthaste.

godless dave

6th July 2009, 03:43 PM

It seems to be confrontational to me. At the very least, I can't see how any sensible person could go into the process of making a sign like that and not expect to have people screaming at them about it. It's asking for trouble.

Well goodness gracious! We wouldn't want to have any confrontation or trouble, now, would we!

godless dave

6th July 2009, 03:49 PM

Are you on board with this ridiculous claim that there's never been an atheist (I'm sorry, secular humanist) organization that has occasionally gotten a little hysterical and wandered into weird territory?

No one on this thread has made such a claim.

thaiboxerken

6th July 2009, 04:46 PM

URsinner is correct. It's not a double standard for Christians to have billboards and then try to block billboards that announce that atheists can be good people.

linusrichard

6th July 2009, 04:49 PM

URsinner is correct. It's not a double standard for Christians to have billboards and then try to block billboards that announce that atheists can be good people.

It depends on what you mean by "block," I think.

6th July 2009, 05:05 PM

Towlie

6th July 2009, 06:25 PM

oh dear that's just sick...Imagine if that billboard replaced the current one on Sunrise Blvd, and imagine that it carried the written message "If you don't matter to God, you don't matter to anyone" with that white kid pointing his gun at all the black people in that neighborhood. Imagine if they assumed it was saying they don't matter to God and therefore don't matter to anyone.

I'll bet then they'd decide that the FLASH bulletin board wasn't really so bad after all.

Robster, FCD

6th July 2009, 06:46 PM

As long as we are quiet and hide from the public eye, people will respect us right?

Atheists have a great public image already!

http://forums.randi.org/picture.php?albumid=187&pictureid=1291

:)

UnrepentantSinner

6th July 2009, 10:21 PM

URsinner is correct. It's not a double standard for Christians to have billboards and then try to block billboards that announce that atheists can be good people.

Nice straw man Ken. You knocked it down easier than those folks in Ft. Lauderdale are likely to knock down this billboard. :rolleyes:

Thanks for being an embarassment to those of us atheists who try to keep our public relations efforts rational.

Quinn

6th July 2009, 11:24 PM

The concept, "telling people it is OK to not believe in gods, there are others like you out there" isn't on your list of possible motives. Allow me to add it for you. :rolleyes:

That was kinda the concept I was going for in the second option. But you're right, I like your wording better.

Skeptic Ginger

6th July 2009, 11:51 PM

That was kinda the concept I was going for in the second option. But you're right, I like your wording better.Sorry, I think I misread your second option.

ImaginalDisc

7th July 2009, 12:07 AM

I find it more than a little ironic that the protesters are largely African-American.

(Yeah, I realize I'm judging them based on their oppressed history, but the irony stands. )

I had the same reaction when I stood in line to vote in '08 and all the people chanting about how evil gays are were black. (My state passed a gay marriage ban by a wide margin.)

Towlie

7th July 2009, 06:31 PM

I drove by the billboard twice today, once at 3:00 PM and again on the way back at 5:00 PM. There weren't any protesters visible or any signs of vandalism.

Disregarding the message and artwork, it's really not a very good billboard. It's only visible when you're eastbound, unless you already know it's there and you glance out your left side window while you're westbound. It's low to the ground and only comes into view when you're almost ready to pass it. There's a tree in the way that blocks it and then gradually reveals it from left to right as you approach, so that you first see "Being a", then "good person", then "doesn't require", and finally "God". By that time you're approaching the traffic light at 27th Avenue and have to watch it in case it turns red, so that top line of text is about all you're going to get from it unless you're either slowed down a lot by traffic or caught in just the right spot by the traffic light. It seems likely that most people completely miss the part that says "Don't believe in God? You're NOT alone!" as well as the website URL. There just isn't enough time to read it all.

I noticed many other billboards in that same area that are much more prominent, easy to read, and visible for a longer time as you drive by. That particular one may well be the worst in the area. I sure hope the FLASH organization got a good deal on the rental rate, and if they pull in sufficient contributions they would do well to find a better billboard instead of keeping that one.

Beth

7th July 2009, 07:11 PM

billydkid

8th July 2009, 07:11 AM

As long as we are quiet and hide from the public eye, people will respect us right?

Atheists have a great public image already!

http://forums.randi.org/picture.php?albumid=187&pictureid=1291

:)
Come on man, I didn't have any breakfast and I'm starving! Now I can't think of anything but getting my hands on a nice, juicey baby! A little A-1 sauce and I'm in heaven!

Towlie

8th July 2009, 11:37 AM

Eew! :eye-poppi

Towlie

8th July 2009, 11:39 AM

By the way, right after I drove by the billboard yesterday I wound up behind a car with "John 3:16" in the back window. I thought it was ironic that right after seeing the billboard's "Being a good person doesn't require God" message, I encountered the Christian message of "God doesn't require being a good person."

I like that. Let's see how it looks as a new sig:

roger

8th July 2009, 12:16 PM

A billboard like that would have meant the world to me when I was growing up. Raised Christian, a began entertaining doubts in, I don't know, fifth grade or so. No one else I knew disbelieved (though I'm sure now plenty of others did, but also keep their mouth shut). I spent quite a bit of time torturing myself with thoughts of going to Hell if I was wrong. Seeing that billboard would have been huge to me.

So no, I don't see this sign as provocative - it's trying to reach out to people like that kid I once was. Just like breast cancer billboards try to reach out to people affected by breast cancer. A breast cancer sign is not an attach on alternative medicine because it recommends seeing your doctor. An atheism sign is not an attack on religion because it suggest atheists connect with other atheists.

Third Eye Open

8th July 2009, 12:38 PM

Is cognitive dissonance really that painful that you can't glance at a sign for five seconds without going into a fit?

Towlie

8th July 2009, 12:50 PM

Is cognitive dissonance really that painful that you can't glance at a sign for five seconds without going into a fit?It's not clear whom you're addressing or what you mean. I just thought you should know that.

Safe-Keeper

8th July 2009, 12:53 PM

Skeptic Ginger

8th July 2009, 04:12 PM

... "Being a good person doesn't require God" message, I encountered the Christian message of "God doesn't require being a good person."...I think that is an excellent point.

steve s

8th July 2009, 09:05 PM

It amazes me that anyone could find the sign in the OP offensive. I've often wished I had really deep pockets to help fund some billboards like that. In addition to a pro-atheist message, I think it would be good to put some bible quotes on some of them, the type of quotes that the priests and ministers don't read on Sunday morning. Give them a dose of their own medicine. Something like Luke 14:26...

If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

If the xtians are shocked and offended by it, it just proves that they don't really read their bibles like they claim they do, or else they'd be familiar with it.

I faked the billboard below in PhotoPaint.

Steve S.

alfaniner

8th July 2009, 09:54 PM

I faked the billboard below in PhotoPaint.

Steve S.
Which part?

I know it doesn't make sense, but it would be funny if the restaurant sign said "Wok on Water".

thaiboxerken

8th July 2009, 10:03 PM

I saw a sign on the local church. It seemed to be a failed attack on atheists.

"Atheism is a non-prophet organization."

steve s

8th July 2009, 11:29 PM

Which part?

Just the message on the board.

Steve S.

Dave Rogers

9th July 2009, 09:20 AM

I agree this sign is relatively tame and inoffensive for its content, I just find its location (assuming it was deliberately chosen to be next to a church) understandably bothersome to many people.

There seems to be a bit of misinformation getting vectored here; epeeist seems to be under the misapprehension that the sign was next to a church. The quote in the OP said that:

The members of the community cite two main problems: born-again Christians own the business right next to the sign, and the billboard is located right in the middle of an African-American community.

Over on this side of the pond, a church and a business owned by born-again Christians are two very different things. Of course, in America your mileage may vary.

Dave

Towlie

9th July 2009, 09:34 AM

I agree this sign is relatively tame and inoffensive for its content, I just find its location (assuming it was deliberately chosen to be next to a church) understandably bothersome to many people.Like Dave Rogers says, it's not next to a church but it is allegedly in a neighborhood where particularly religious people live.

But I've driven by the billboard and my impression is that it was probably chosen for its low rental rate, not its location. In fact, the location is pretty bad, as I outlined in my post #82 (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=4882861&postcount=82).

chillzero

9th July 2009, 09:51 AM

Like Dave Rogers says, it's not next to a church but it is allegedly in a neighborhood where particularly religious people live.

The thing I find odd is that some of that allegation is being made due to residents' race, and not any evidence of their religious beliefs, as I mentioned earlier.

kerikiwi

9th July 2009, 01:46 PM

The thing I find odd is that some of that allegation is being made due to residents' race, and not any evidence of their religious beliefs, as I mentioned earlier.

Theodore Hamilton, who is a local, said 'we all believe in a spiritual higher being'. Seems like pretty direct evidence of religious beliefs.

chillzero

9th July 2009, 01:54 PM

Theodore Hamilton, who is a local, said 'we all believe in a spiritual higher being'. Seems like pretty direct evidence of religious beliefs.

As I mentioned earlier (post 39), the article itself states:
The members of the community cite two main problems: born-again Christians own the business right next to the sign, and the billboard is located right in the middle of an African-American community.

What does the fact that the community is Afrian-American got to do with anything? Are there no atheist Afrian-Americans?

Safe-Keeper

9th July 2009, 01:58 PM

It amazes me that anyone could find the sign in the OP offensive. I've often wished I had really deep pockets to help fund some billboards like that. In addition to a pro-atheist message, I think it would be good to put some bible quotes on some of them, the type of quotes that the priests and ministers don't read on Sunday morning. Give them a dose of their own medicine. Something like Luke 14:26...

If the xtians are shocked and offended by it, it just proves that they don't really read their bibles like they claim they do, or else they'd be familiar with it.It's indeed an awesome idea.

Quinn

9th July 2009, 02:21 PM

What does the fact that the community is Afrian-American got to do with anything? Are there no atheist Afrian-Americans?

There aren't "none," but I'm pretty certain there are a lot fewer, percentage-wise, than there are atheist Caucasian-Americans. I don't think it's any kind of stretch to imply that mostly-black neighborhoods are likely to be, on average, more religious than mostly-white neighborhoods.

[NOTE: The above is based on faint memories of what I believe were actual statistics (which I'm too lazy to look up again now), combined with my own imperfect personal anecdotal experience. Take it for what it's worth.]

chillzero

9th July 2009, 02:26 PM

There aren't "none," but I'm pretty certain there are a lot fewer, percentage-wise, than there are atheist Caucasian-Americans. I don't think it's any kind of stretch to imply that mostly-black neighborhoods are likely to be, on average, more religious than mostly-white neighborhoods.

So do you think it's relevant to protest about an atheist sign on the basis that residents are African American?

Quinn

9th July 2009, 02:49 PM

So do you think it's relevant to protest about an atheist sign on the basis that residents are African American?

If one accepts the religious makeup of the community as a valid reason for deeming the sign unacceptable, then I think the fact that it's an African-American community could be considered relevant to the argument. Personally, I don't accept that premise (that the religious makeup of the community is a valid reason for deeming the sign unacceptable), so from my perspective it's a moot point. But those making the argument clearly do come from that premise. In order to convince them that race isn't an issue, you would first have to convince them them that the religious makeup of the community isn't an issue.

Dr. Keith

9th July 2009, 05:15 PM

In addition to a pro-atheist message, I think it would be good to put some bible quotes on some of them, the type of quotes that the priests and ministers don't read on Sunday morning. Give them a dose of their own medicine. Something like Luke 14:26...

Steve S.

Is there some source for really bad bible quotes?

I would think someone had compiled all the snake handling and kill non-believer parts of the bible into a handy searchable database on these here inter tubes.*

Anyone got a link?**

*In my mind this site will have a very angelic and uplifting interface and present the scripture in a curly font, or maybe comic sans!

** Not trying to mooch, but I rarely have a decent idea that hasn't already been implemented. meetbetween.us was the last such crushing defeat . . .

steve s

9th July 2009, 06:59 PM

Is there some source for really bad bible quotes?

Other than the Bible itself?:D

Do a google search on bad bible quotes and you'll get quite a few sites. Here's one at SkepticFriends...
http://www.skepticfriends.org/forum/showquestion.asp?faq=4&fldAuto=47

ETA:My favorite quote from that site is the one on pornography.

There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.

Imagine being part of a bible study group and the group leader asks everyone to read their favorite verse from the bible. Now imagine the expressions on everyone's faces when you read that quote.

Steve S.

Towlie

9th July 2009, 07:18 PM

Ezekiel 23:20

steve s

9th July 2009, 08:01 PM

Do you think any billboard company would be willing to put this one up?

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/thum_81544a56a096a1a18.jpg (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=16925)

Steve S.

Whiplash

11th July 2009, 08:22 PM

Something occurred to me. The anti-abortion lobby where I live is strong. They have put up ads so offensive that it caused local outcry. It's been a while*, but my hazy recollection is that the ads featured gory abortion remains. Do you think it was reasonable for people who were offended to complain about them? Was it reasonable for business owners nearby to object because they feared people would tend to shop elsewhere to avoid seeing an ad they personally found offensive?

I only see gory anti-abortion signs way out in the countryside these days.

* by a while, I mean at least a decade.

These kinds of signs are completely out of line, and much, much worse than any complaint I had with this subject. There is no reason for that. They are disgusting. I do not understand the people who are so militant about it that they can't see that they go way over the line, way too often.

Towlie

5th August 2009, 06:17 PM

The billboard that was on Sunrise Blvd. in Fort Lauderdale was moved a few days ago to Commercial Blvd. at NE 4th Ave. in Oakland Park, according to the Miami Herald (http://www.miamiherald.com/living/story/1165326.html). I haven't seen it yet but I'm guessing that it's the one that should come up if you click this Google Street View link:

http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=26.188619,-80.141144&spn=0,359.973671&z=16&layer=c&cbll=26.188621,-80.141029&panoid=D6xafeVzLgbwWkN8MsxQmA&cbp=12,17.04,,0,3.03

If so I don't know which side it's on, but either side looks like a much better and more visible billboard than before.

The Examiner (http://www.examiner.com/x-7312-Miami-Interfaith-Spirituality-Examiner~y2009m8d4-Billboard-reaches-out-to-atheists-in-South-Florida) and the Miami Herald (http://www.miamiherald.com/living/story/1165326.html) give the impression that it was moved due to pressure from local complainers, but the Florida Atheists and Secular Humanists (http://www.freethoughtflorida.com/) say that it was moved "to get the message out to as many new eyes as possible."

GreyICE

5th August 2009, 09:54 PM

Something occurred to me. The anti-abortion lobby where I live is strong. They have put up ads so offensive that it caused local outcry. It's been a while*, but my hazy recollection is that the ads featured gory abortion remains. Do you think it was reasonable for people who were offended to complain about them? Was it reasonable for business owners nearby to object because they feared people would tend to shop elsewhere to avoid seeing an ad they personally found offensive?

I only see gory anti-abortion signs way out in the countryside these days.

* by a while, I mean at least a decade.

Depends. If what they're protesting is the level of gore, and they'd have the same objection to a video game billboard, a movie billboard, or a TV show billboard with similar content, yeah, sure, fine. If they're protesting it because it's an abortion billboard, 100% out of bounds. If, for instance, the anti-abortion group replaced it with a less-objectionable billboard and the protests continue, or they could show billboards with similar content in the area or that had been in the area in the past and had gone unremarked, I'd agree with the anti-abortion group.

KingMerv00

6th August 2009, 03:08 PM

Shame on the god believers complaining about someone else's free speech.

Dammit! All of this free speech is getting in the way of my 1st Amendment rights!

Achán hiNidráne

6th August 2009, 10:37 PM

UnrepentantSinner

6th August 2009, 11:12 PM

It looks like a similar bus campaign in Iowa was shouted down this week (http://iowaindependent.com/18293/acknowledging-existence-of-atheists-is-too-offensive-for-des-moines), and their ad was even tamer than the one in Florida.

There's a whole bunch of comments for their Metro section story on this (http://www.desmoinesregister.com/article/20090806/NEWS/908060371&theme=METRO_COMMUNITIES).

Achán hiNidráne

6th August 2009, 11:29 PM

There's a whole bunch of comments for their Metro section story on this (http://www.desmoinesregister.com/article/20090806/NEWS/908060371&theme=METRO_COMMUNITIES).

And? Did the JREF's resident self-hating atheist have a point to make from his closet?

MikeSun5

7th August 2009, 02:28 AM

Like Dave Rogers says, it's not next to a church but it is allegedly in a neighborhood where particularly religious people live.

I know the area and have driven past the billboard many times. It's in a predominantly black neighborhood (lots of Caribbean islanders), but not next to a church. It's next to "Wok 'N Wings," a crap restaurant that had like 2 customers a day before the billboard went up.

I haven't been that way in a few days, but if they moved it to a more visible place like the stoned towel says, that's a good thing. Not because it was pissing off Jesus-freaks, but because it would get more attention elsewhere.

Towlie

7th August 2009, 09:20 AM

Right. You can just barely make out the "Wok 'N Wings" here (http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&q=&ie=UTF8&ll=26.136349,-80.178974&spn=0,359.981847&z=16&layer=c&cbll=26.136354,-80.178869&panoid=iGWYn_8B00Zpxu-aeuJtOg&cbp=12,190.43,,1,3.53).

If you pass by the new location (http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=26.188619,-80.141144&spn=0,359.973671&z=16&layer=c&cbll=26.188621,-80.141029&panoid=D6xafeVzLgbwWkN8MsxQmA&cbp=12,17.04,,0,3.03), please let us know how it looks.

Xulld

7th August 2009, 10:16 AM

No, I don't find the message in any way offensive. I did say I think the religious people are over-reacting. They are showing that they are insecure in their beliefs.

And I do feel the same about Christian (or any religious) billboards. I'd rather people not proselytize at all. I hate to see them too, honestly.

I just feel that sometimes people on the atheist side go a little too far in trying to provoke reaction, or with some of their ridicule. I've stated many times that I believe it to be a completely ineffective way of changing minds. It's my experience it hardens people in their position by making them angry and defensive, and therefore less open to hear what you have to say. And I really feel such methods also only serve as a "back slapping moment" or "high five moment" for the people who are doing the ridicule. I find it childish.

As I've also stated before, I was raised in a strongly religious family. I've lost my faith completely, but maybe sometimes I take up for them defensivley because I share some common roots.

Most people only change when they die, so I find your argument moot. To me these signs are for a new generation or the rare person who is already sitting on the fence and looking for change, I find the sign to be rather pleasant and not confrontational at all.

To me the whole of the problem is intolerance, this sign is not offensive to a tolerant person.

Sunray Breaker

7th August 2009, 10:21 AM

I'm sorry, but these people have absolutely no right to complain.

Pro God propaganda has been all over this country for years...It irritates the hell out of us atheists, but we don't complain about it, because we recognize the right to free speech. They need to get over it. They still have the majority of billboards out there.

They just want to run the whole damn country, don't they?

I think we should protest the tax status of churches in response.

Ask them how much they've ACTUALLY contributed to their society. Bake Sales and food drives only do so much....Make with the doe God!!! Quit holdin' back!!!

LibraryLady

7th August 2009, 05:40 PM

And? Did the JREF's resident self-hating atheist have a point to make from his closet?

Remember to be civil and polite. Name calling is not a constructive way to argue.

Whiplash

7th August 2009, 05:43 PM

Most people only change when they die, so I find your argument moot. To me these signs are for a new generation or the rare person who is already sitting on the fence and looking for change, I find the sign to be rather pleasant and not confrontational at all.

To me the whole of the problem is intolerance, this sign is not offensive to a tolerant person.

I hear you, but these people are intolerant, it's simply the fact of life at the moment. And I don't see what is constructive in taking it to them in an agressive manner, as opposed to education and empathetic/helpful attempts to bring them around to the right way of thinking. That's all I've ever been trying to say. That I think that some methods can be flawed, or even counter-productive.

sasquatchx

7th August 2009, 05:48 PM

Maybe they should put up a banner reading, "jesus loves me, but he only loves you because he feels sorry for you."

disclaimer: quote is a direct copy-paste from a maria bamford vignette.

thought_fugitive

7th August 2009, 06:17 PM

Is there some source for really bad bible quotes?

I would think someone had compiled all the snake handling and kill non-believer parts of the bible into a handy searchable database on these here inter tubes.*

Anyone got a link?**

*In my mind this site will have a very angelic and uplifting interface and present the scripture in a curly font, or maybe comic sans!

** Not trying to mooch, but I rarely have a decent idea that hasn't already been implemented. meetbetween.us was the last such crushing defeat . . .

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/

"Behold, I will corrupt your seed, and spread dung upon your faces" -Malachi 2:3

MikeSun5

7th August 2009, 07:13 PM

To me the whole of the problem is intolerance, this sign is not offensive to a tolerant person.

:clap: Oh yes, we have a winner folks. :clap:

That's all this is about.... and being intolerant is EXACTLY what Jesus would do. God loves ugly, right?

Whiplash

7th August 2009, 07:32 PM

boloboffin

7th August 2009, 07:37 PM

Shall we just sit around and make fun of them for not being tolerant? Stick up billboards that are only there for the purpose of tweaking their noses? And then act surprised when they get angry?

I don't understand why people think these things accomlpish anything. I feel certain that they are, in fact, counter-productive.

The billboards are not that, Whiplash. They are targeted not at believers but at non-believers. Design an ad campaign that could be MORE targeted at non-believers, why don't you?

And until you do, your internalized atheophobia is on display for all to see. You might want to look into it.

MikeSun5

7th August 2009, 07:47 PM

Regardless, they are intolerant. That's reality. How do you propose to change that? What's the best way? What's the most productive way? What ways will actually work? What ways are not only ineffective, but counter-productive?

Well the first person I think of in the battle against intolerance is Martin Luther King, Jr. (ironically the billboard was only 3 blocks from MLK Blvd.) Why not use some of his tactics? Peaceful rallies, speeches, etc. I'm sure invoking a reverend in regards to tolerance toward atheists will freak some people out, but the underlying issue of intolerance is definitely similar.

Shall we just sit around and make fun of them for not being tolerant? Stick up billboards that are only there for the purpose of tweaking their noses? And then act surprised when they get angry?

Okay, this is where you start getting off track. That billboard (like most billboards) was put up to advertise an organization that wants to expand. It wasn't put up to specifically to piss people off. That's absurd. The location was chosen because it was cheap. Of course the ultra-religious are going to think the billboard was put up to offend them in particular. Arrogance is part of human nature.

Eyeron

7th August 2009, 07:54 PM

So I showed my friend this sign and she got really upset. According to her a person can only be good with God.

So I brought up Mathew 19:17 which states: "Why caleest me good? There is none good but god, but keep the commandments and thou will enter ehaven.

Which means that there is no such thing as a good person

She said you're a good person if you're allowed to enter heaven.

I said, uh no, you're not a good person, but you are allowed to enter ehaven* if you follow the commandments.

And then she slapped me and left.

I suspect it'll be a week or two before she speaks to me again, if ever.

*pun intended.

MikeSun5

7th August 2009, 08:21 PM

And then she slapped me and left.

That's what the good God would have done.

Towlie

7th August 2009, 09:16 PM

According to her a person can only be good with God.Show her the Mitchell and Webb video where God commands Abraham to kill Isaac:

YqC73omSk4o
God: "You're sure you're fine with this?"

Abraham: "Absolutely!"

God: "You would say?"

Abraham: "I would say what Lord?"

God: "Well, you know, if you thought I was asking you to do something, you know, wrong?"

Abraham: "If I thought it was wrong? Like I'd know! Like I have any chance of forming an independent basis of right and wrong outside the instructions of some supervisory being! No Lord! I am your bitch!"

Quinn

8th August 2009, 01:24 AM

Shall we just sit around and make fun of them for not being tolerant? Stick up billboards that are only there for the purpose of tweaking their noses? And then act surprised when they get angry?

If that were, in fact, the purpose of the billboards, I would agree with you. But since that very clearly is not their purpose, and could not be mistaken for such by any reasonable person... I don't.

(Yes, I just called a (potential) group of people "unreasonable." I do so with the full knowledge that this course of action is very likely not the best way to persuade those people to see things my way. However, since that kind of persuasion is not the objective of this particular post, I'm okay with that.)

Towlie

8th August 2009, 03:42 PM

I had the wrong billboard before in my posts #110 and #117. The new billboard is actually to the west of that board and visible when you drive eastbound on Commercial Boulevard, shortly after you exit or pass under I-95. It's located at the corner of NE 3rd Avenue and Commercial Boulevard on the northwest corner, not at NE 4th Avenue like The Miami Herald says (http://www.miamiherald.com/living/story/1165326.html). Here's a Google Street View link (http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&layer=c&cbll=26.188725,-80.143388&panoid=Xu7iSiQsl9roI3OTc1F14w&cbp=12,42.26,,0,3.86&ll=26.188715,-80.143483&spn=0,359.981847&z=16).

The new choice of billboards is just as disappointing as the old one was, with trees obstructing the view until you get very close, and then with little time remaining to read the whole message. Worse, now there's no traffic light to stop you or slow you down as you pass by. It appears that the FLASH organization is forced by its limited budget to rent the cheapest billboard it can find.

Eastbound on Commercial Boulevard in the left lane:

http://www.smacaw.com/randi/approach1.jpg

Closer:

http://www.smacaw.com/randi/approach2.jpg

Passing by:

http://www.smacaw.com/randi/from commercial.jpg

Notice how they decided that capitalizing God on the first billboard was an error and they used a lower-case g this time, as was mentioned at the end of The Miami Herald article (http://www.miamiherald.com/living/story/1165326.html). That doesn't seem correct to me. Even if God is a fictional character, it's still correct to capitalize the name.

http://www.smacaw.com/randi/closeup.jpg

Achán hiNidráne

8th August 2009, 03:53 PM

Good news! The Des Moines' transit authority has changed their minds! The Iowa bus ads are back! Woo Hoooooo!

MikeSun5

8th August 2009, 07:24 PM

The new choice of billboards is just as disappointing as the old one was, with trees obstructing the view until you get very close, and then with little time remaining to read the whole message. Worse, now there's no traffic light to stop you or slow you down as you pass by. It appears that the FLASH organization is forced by its limited budget to rent the cheapest billboard it can find.

That's unfortunate. :( The previous location was better because it was a few blocks from a popular flea market. Commercial Blvd. has plenty of traffic, but Towlie is right. You can hardly see this one, and because there's no reason to stop, only residents of the area will get a chance to really read the thing. Ah, the importance of the allmighty dollar.

FLASH is definitely not working with any kind of decent budget. So far they've received a little less than $700 in donations to keep the board up. I'm not sure how much billboards cost, but that doesn't seem like much money.

GreyICE

10th August 2009, 12:10 AM

Regardless, they are intolerant. That's reality. How do you propose to change that? What's the best way? What's the most productive way? What ways will actually work? What ways are not only ineffective, but counter-productive?

Shall we just reduce it to "you are intolerant" and expect them to suddenly agree that they are, and change? Without helpful attempts to educate them? We need to work to help them to realize for themselves that their beliefs are illogical. Just telling them that their beliefs are intolerant is insulting to them. They think they are the paragons of virture. They think they are God's children and that everyone else is the problem. They just laugh of the idea of being intolerant. They would say "YOU are the intolerant one!"

Shall we just sit around and make fun of them for not being tolerant? Stick up billboards that are only there for the purpose of tweaking their noses? And then act surprised when they get angry?

I don't understand why people think these things accomlpish anything. I feel certain that they are, in fact, counter-productive.

I hope people don't mistake my comments as some kind of defense of relgion itself. I'm speaking as someone who was formerly relgious, and knows these people, and can empathaize with these people, and I know what "worked" against me, or helped me. And I also vividly remember the kinds of things that made me defensive or more beligerant, and inclined to reject things out of hand, defensively. I'm actually interested in finding the most proactive and productive means of changing minds.
It's simple. Laziness is the enemy. People only change when they're forced to. Most people will operate on inertia as long as possible. People who are clever are merely uncomfortable enough that they change more frequently than others.

You cannot and will not ever change minds of people who are mostly content. Reasoning is simply irrelevant to these people. Fundamental belief systems do not up and go change themselves.

The thing is, people who are unhappy frequently get introspective enough to examine their lives and determine why they're unhappy. This frequently can and does fundamentally shift belief systems.

Visibility can be an answer. A billboard, is a passive, direct way of showing that alternative. If they want to come, well, billboards are hardly preachers or evangelists or streetcorner men with their tracts and handouts.

You may believe that the billboard serves simply to tweak. This is a flaw in your analysis. This is a way to provide people who are questioning their beliefs and atheists who are receiving criticism from the intolerant and outraged knowledge that others share their ideas about the world, and a possible outlet for them to visit.

Why this is somehow more objectionable than the ******* in my face trying to get me to take his tract, I dunno. Though truth be told, I've actually gotten more flak from Orthodox Jews of all the religions until I reveal the fact that I'm not Jewish (which always results in an apology. Apparently I'm screwed if I behave the way I do, but since I'm not even a Jew, I have no hope of being one of the chosen few, so we'll apologize while God bends you over to stick something sharp and point in an uncomfortable location).

Frankly, your bigotry is showing, and while I don't find it particularly unpleasant (it's merely ignorant, and a tad funny that you think you're being subtle), I find the insipid little terms used to cover it up highly objectionable. Do I seem as if I was born yesterday? Do you think that anyone buys these horrible stereotypes of Atheists views of Christian self-opinions?

P.S. It's funny that you use the phrase 'right way of thinking.' If it's so evidently right, why would it need to be evangelized? That's always what amused me about religion - if there was an all-knowing, all-powerful being who wanted us to know certain things, why don't we, well... know them?