Atheists, what is your attitude on suicide, murder?

[-Axiom-]

The OP sounds like someone who found Jesus in the corner of a jail cell.

I think it is pretty safe to say that more people have been raped, murdered, and tortured in the name of religion than anything else.

What does this say about God?

[Pure Argent]

Well, if death is the end, cessation of existence, suicide would be an excellent way to end all your pains, no? After all, there wouldn't be a "you" afterwards to either feel the pain, or to regret losing his/her life, and so on... "You" could never regret your decision. The murder victim would never feel any loss, because (s)he would not be there to have such feelings.

That's right. But suicide has several disadvantages as well, the biggest of which is probably that you give up any chances you may have had to overcome whatever pain has brought you to the point of suicide. Most people have a built-in desire to live, also from evolution; a species which doesn't care about survival... won't. Killing, whether the victim is yourself or another, violates evolutionary tendencies, as well as harming third parties such as the relatives. And, again, it generally violates your personal moral code.

So then it seems that by your own admission, there is some universal morals, even if from evolution, instead of God.

Universal? No. Widespread amongst the human race? Yes.

[Foster Zygote]

One simple question: Are you aware that other people can think differently than you?

Not only is he aware of it, but he's really cheesed off about it.

[Dancing David]

Your own personal moral code could put you in the class of sociopaths.

That is an abnormal deviation from the norm with humans.




Yrreg

Like YHVH and the land of Midian?

[Dancing David]

According to Buddhists, chimpanzees are into their present karma-reincarnation because of past misdeeds -- they were humans before.

I would accept that kind of a worldview if they will put someone like God in charge of karma.


Ask Buddhists, I think they will say that it is up to any particular Buddhists to accept God at the top of the universe summit, and be in charge of everything and every human act, it is totally compatible with their karma, the Buddhist kind which I think is similar to the Hinduist kind.

You know, though I have not made any research into the ultimate foundation of human morality with Buddhists, Confucians, and taoists, I tend to understand that it certainly is not one's own personal moral code, and it is certainly not up to man himself even as a species.



Yrreg


Part of the eightfold path is to refrain from acts which cause suffering, we already know your understanding of buddhism is close to your understanding of atheism.

the buddha said you must examine it for yourself, or at least highly recommended it.

[Beerina]

I have to question the concept of reincarnation as punishment, or at least as repeating the second grade until you get it right.

It cannot be a complete memory wipe every go-round, otherwise what's the point? You're a completely new human. So there must be some kind of rudimentary personality and preferences that make it through. It must be this part that's not ship-shape, according to some gods' concept of what it should be.

Apparently gods of all religions are first-class, nosy busybodies. You wouldn't have to be kind in the first place if you couldn't cause people pain and couldn't starve to death and so on. WTF!

[kerikiwi]

the buddha said you must examine it for yourself, or at least highly recommended it.

In some cases it is possible (breast self examination is recommended and practical), but in others you really need someone to do it for you...
:D

[yrreg]

Confucius subscribes to the Will of Heaven, i.e., God the Author of everything.



I am talking about why murder and rape is universally immoral for all mankind, and it is because God puts it in the heart and mind of mankind.

Of course He also gives man free will to comply with this moral instinct or to go against it.


Now those of you who would have no ultimate basis for human morality that transcends man himself, but ascribes morality to evolution, then evolution is your God.

And it is a pretty good and Godly evolution of a God, no matter that you want to make it a blind writer of morality -- because at the end of the day you also know that it has brought you to consciousness and intelligence and morality, of course.

That is why mankind is different from chimpanzees, they chimpanzees did not evolve Godly-wise as God intended it, of course, to be endowed with a moral faculty.

Now some humans prefer to behave like chimpanzees, in which case that is their prerogative of free choice to live and consort with chimpanzees, but remember you have to act like chimpanzees with chimpanzees away from moral society.


Some here insist that there are isolated tribes where murder and rape are morally acceptable behaviors, in which case these tribes are in the wrong kind of morality, that is why they have to isolate themselves, otherwise people with the morality which they find within their God-enlightened and God-motivated heart and mind and obey that God-given morality will either abstain from their company or put them in separate cells in isolation from moral society.


By the way, may I just ask where and who are these isolated tribes without any moral idea of the moral evil of murder and rape?




Yrreg

[Fiona]

You've done this one before Yrreg.

[Pure Argent]

I am talking about why murder and rape is universally immoral for all mankind, and it is because God puts it in the heart and mind of mankind.

Bare assertion.

Of course He also gives man free will to comply with this moral instinct or to go against it.

Bare assertion.

Now those of you who would have no ultimate basis for human morality that transcends man himself, but ascribes morality to evolution, then evolution is your God.

No.

Some here insist that there are isolated tribes where murder and rape are morally acceptable behaviors, in which case these tribes are in the wrong kind of morality, that is why they have to isolate themselves, otherwise people with the morality which they find within their God-enlightened and God-motivated heart and mind and obey that God-given morality will either abstain from their company or put them in separate cells in isolation from moral society.

So why did your god not put morality in their hearts?

[kerikiwi]

Confucius subscribes to the Will of Heaven, i.e., God the Author of everything.



I am talking about why murder and rape is universally immoral for all mankind, and it is because God puts it in the heart and mind of mankind.

Of course He also gives man free will to comply with this moral instinct or to go against it.


Now those of you who would have no ultimate basis for human morality that transcends man himself, but ascribes morality to evolution, then evolution is your God.

And it is a pretty good and Godly evolution of a God, no matter that you want to make it a blind writer of morality -- because at the end of the day you also know that it has brought you to consciousness and intelligence and morality, of course.

That is why mankind is different from chimpanzees, they chimpanzees did not evolve Godly-wise as God intended it, of course, to be endowed with a moral faculty.

Now some humans prefer to behave like chimpanzees, in which case that is their prerogative of free choice to live and consort with chimpanzees, but remember you have to act like chimpanzees with chimpanzees away from moral society.


Some here insist that there are isolated tribes where murder and rape are morally acceptable behaviors, in which case these tribes are in the wrong kind of morality, that is why they have to isolate themselves, otherwise people with the morality which they find within their God-enlightened and God-motivated heart and mind and obey that God-given morality will either abstain from their company or put them in separate cells in isolation from moral society.


By the way, may I just ask where and who are these isolated tribes without any moral idea of the moral evil of murder and rape?




Yrreg

If someone actually took the time to respond to this post, would you read the response?


(Why do you type out your headline, then repeat it?)

[Sun Countess]

Now those of you who would have no ultimate basis for human morality that transcends man himself, but ascribes morality to evolution, then evolution is your God.
NO.
And it is a pretty good and Godly evolution of a God, no matter that you want to make it a blind writer of morality -- because at the end of the day you also know that it has brought you to consciousness and intelligence and morality, of course.
No, it's not a god.

That is why mankind is different from chimpanzees, they chimpanzees did not evolve Godly-wise as God intended it, of course, to be endowed with a moral faculty.
Neither did humans evolve Godly-wise as God intended it.

Now some humans prefer to behave like chimpanzees, in which case that is their prerogative of free choice to live and consort with chimpanzees, but remember you have to act like chimpanzees with chimpanzees away from moral society.
Who ARE these people? I live with a dog and two cats, but I don't behave like them.

Has your prescription been changed or something?

[EventHorizon]

Will of Heaven, i.e., God the Author of everything.






God's name is Will? Short for William I suppose. That's fascinating.

[RoboTimbo]

I am talking about why murder and rape is universally immoral for all mankind, and it is because God puts it in the heart and mind of mankind.

Of course He also gives man free will to comply with this moral instinct or to go against it.

Yrreg

So, how can we tell the difference between that and each person attributing his own moral values to his own personal God? If it were God-given, wouldn't universal mean, well, universal?

[devnull]

By the way, may I just ask where and who are these isolated tribes without any moral idea of the moral evil of murder and rape?


Go spend some time in PNG 60 years ago.

Seriously tho, you realise that there is heavy selection for not killing each other, right? Can you spot it?

[Pup]

I am talking about why murder and rape is universally immoral for all mankind, and it is because God puts it in the heart and mind of mankind.

Well, no. Guess you missed the link I posted above, so here it is again.

Mother: "God Ordered My Children's Deaths." (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/12/21/national/main2289610.shtml)

Sadly, it's not a unique story, just the first I found in a quick google search. God apparently orders people to murder their loved ones on a regular basis.

And if you say, well, that wasn't really god ordering her to do that, then you're just claiming that you know more about god than she does. Why should we believe you instead of her?

One doesn't need that extra layer of god in between human behavior and morality. It just complicates things and puts the focus more on who should be the correct spokesman for god, rather than the actual point that most normal people understand: murder like that is obviously wrong, whether you believe in a god or not.

[BigSlowTarget]

Now those of you who would have no ultimate basis for human morality that transcends man himself, but ascribes morality to evolution, then evolution is your God.

So obviously the proper response to this is 'that is incorrect,' but lets look at why this is so.

The theist here is clearly assuming that the only possibly origin of human morality is a god. They go on to attach morality to evolution and (following from their assumption) announce that evolution is god. The attempt here is to attach the god label to the development of morality and in doing so create a connection to all the beliefs and overhead of the god label even though none of that is directly argued. Obviously god label carries more baggage than something like 'basis of philosophy' or 'influencing conceptual framework' and it is clearly meant to do so here.

Its the initial assumption that is incorrect and unsupported. Evolution can be ascribed as the basis for morality without being a god. Indeed if that were the only requirement to be a god many theists would be surprised and worship would be pretty pointless.

[pchams]

yrreg, you know why I don't kill?



Because I have, and because I will again, if I want to eat, or if I'm attacked.
But I won't again, unless...^^

But other than that I won't. Promise.

Not because your god said so, just because everyone I have ever met abhors it.

[RoboTimbo]

I don't kill because:

It's against the MA and I don't want to be banned. I think you're confusing God for the MA as the orgin of all morals.

[Mojo]

God's name is Will?


I thought it was "Harold".

[Mashuna]

In a flash at the speed of light, the understanding comes at once to the surface of consciousness and everything is brilliantly crystal-like apprehended and comprehended.


Yrreg

Hmm, things are starting to make sense now. So Yrreg, your understanding of morality and theology came after you were struck by lightning, correct?

[MRC_Hans]

Confucius subscribes to the Will of Heaven, i.e., God the Author of everything.

Not your god, however.


I am talking about why murder and rape is universally immoral for all mankind, and it is because God puts it in the heart and mind of mankind.


Actually, it's not that universal. To be sure, 'murder' and 'rape' is immoral in all cultures, however, the definition of which deeds are considered 'murder' and 'rape' vary and have varied quite a bit.

Just as an example, in some cultures, a man cannot rape his wife; if he forces her to sex, he is only exerting his right as a husband.

Now those of you who would have no ultimate basis for human morality that transcends man himself, but ascribes morality to evolution, then evolution is your God.

Or, to be precise, in the evolution of morals, evolution does the job of God. It does not, however, replace God.

And it is a pretty good and Godly evolution of a God, no matter that you want to make it a blind writer of morality -- because at the end of the day you also know that it has brought you to consciousness and intelligence and morality, of course.

It has indeed. And?


That is why mankind is different from chimpanzees, they chimpanzees did not evolve Godly-wise as God intended it, of course, to be endowed with a moral faculty.


Chimpanzees have morals, too.

Hans

[devnull]

Chimpanzees have morals, too.


QFT.

[Pup]

I thought it was "Harold".

I'm pretty sure it's Howard. "Our father who art in heaven, Howard it be thy name..."

[Menalitus]

May I repeat:

Leave God out of this thread at this point, just tell me why you feel bad to murder.


If an atheist does not feel bad or fear that in murdering anyone he might meet someone like himself who will murder him without any infinitesimally exiguous qualms of bad feeling, is that why you atheists don't do murder in the hope that other atheists will not also do you in by murdering you successfully, i.e, you die and he does not get caught by any individual humans nor by any human system of justice?





Yrreg


I do not murder because it is morally wrong. I got my morals from my parents and society in general, i suppose it is also possible that there is some genetic basis to not killing each other but I will stick with morals.

Your question implies that you do not murder for some other reason (Religion perhaps). It suggests that it is your religion that prevents you from killing, you scare me...:eek:

[Mojo]

Your question implies that you do not murder for some other reason (Religion perhaps). It suggests that it is your religion that prevents you from killing, you scare me...:eek:


Indeed. What if something gives him the impression that his religion says it's OK (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/September_11_attacks)?

[Sunray Breaker]

If you have evidence that people just ran around murdering and raping people and committing suicide before God came along, First off, you'd have to prove how all of our genes survived such a mass, self imposed extinction which (according to theists) would have killed 100% of us, before God came aong. Which, coincidentally, sat idol for billions of years while life came and went, without so much as hint of what we we're doing or how we got here. Then he finally says one tiny little peep, in one tiny little pocket of history, that proves to more vague than a John Edwards reading entrails and then he never bothers to say another word to us again.
God never mentioned the big bang (or if its wrong, correcting the hypothesis), the universe, the planets, the stars, our genetics, our ancestry, our origins (where the matter that created life came from).

I'd also have to say, if mankind has learned about the world than God himself ever did (or ever taught mankind about), than we've got him beat, his influence is powerless. God may be able to send hurricanes, but we can build shelters. God may design flawed beings, with missing limbs, missing eyes, 2 heads, etc...But WE can fix that problem. It seems almost everything GOD comes up short on, humans have fixed for him. Not so powerful if you ask me.

In reference to the actual OP...

I view suicide as a bad investment. Because, if your a believer, than you'll go to hell. If you're a non-believer, than there's no way of knowing if the afterlife sucks more than your life currently does. The big difference is, if life sucks I can change it. If death sucks, I'm still dead, and theres no going back fom that. It's like going to a party and hearing terrible music trying to leave, but you can't...forever.

I personally like the way Doug Stanhope put it:
Suicide is another thing that's so frowned upon in this society, but honestly, life isn't for everybody. It really isn't. It's sad when kids kill themselves 'cause they didn't really give it a chance, but life is like a movie: if you've sat through more than half of it and it sucked every second so far, it probably isn't gonna get great right at the very end for you and make it all worthwhile. No one should blame you for walking out early.

[Robert Oz]

...I cannot get any categorical statement from atheists for their ultimate basis of morality.

<snip>

To be specific, what is the ultimate basis for an atheist not to commit murder or rape.


Again, yrreg? Really? You would get your answers if you just read the responses to your posts here.


Here it is as simple as I can put it:

Empathy evolved through natural selection. We can put ourselves in the shoes of others, mentally and emotionally, and it is only natural that we are horrified by the idea of murder and rape.


Therefore:

Genetic evolution lead to empathy, which lead to the memetic evolution of morals and ethics and, yes, even religion.


Genetic evolution of empathy was first. Morals, ethics and religion came later.

[-Axiom-]

Yrreg, What is it about Religion that says it's ok to kill others so long as they belong to a different Religion?

It seems to me that we are all better off in a world full of Atheists.
Atheists don't have Religious dogma that justifies the murder of others.

You are aware of the Crusades aren't you?
What was that all about?

[kerikiwi]

God's name is Will?

The christians have always known that god's will