Atheists, what is your attitude on suicide, murder?

[yrreg]

Atheists, what is your attitude on suicide, murder?


Is there any obligation binding you not to commit suicide, murder?




Yrreg

[Cainkane1]

Since life is so short anyway why commit suicide. Muurder should be severely punished for the same reason. If the murder was premeditated with aggravating circumstances the murderer should be put to death. If the murder is a crime of passion then many years in prison.

[xXMoshtradamusXx]

Well of course. Being an atheist should cause you to appreciate and value life far more than anyone else. This is the only life you have. Why would you want to end it or anyone's for that matter?

[deRoy]

I wouldn't recommend it, but it's no one else's place to decide what you should be able to do with your own body.

[yrreg]

Since life is so short anyway why commit suicide. Muurder should be severely punished for the same reason. If the murder was premeditated with aggravating circumstances the murderer should be put to death. If the murder is a crime of passion then many years in prison.


You are in a way immune to the consequences to your person, in a way sort of, when you commit suicide successfully.


Suppose you can commit murder successfully so that your victim dies and you can never be caught by individual human or by any human justice system, what is your attitude on murder?





Yrreg

[RandFan]

...as it was before I was an atheist

Life is precious. I value mine and I value the lives of others. I believe that humans are typically born with intrinsic values of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Humans are also born with empathy, compassion and innate altruism.

Suicide is tragic because it is contrary to base values of life and pursuing happiness. People often commit suicide when they lose their coping mechanisms and are severe distress.

Murder is immoral as it robs others of their right to life and the pursuit of happiness. Their is utility in seeing murder as immoral because by valuing the lives of others we increase the likelihood that they will value ours.

[MG1962]

Hmmmmmmmm what an odd question

[RandFan]

... about killing people in general. Suppose you can commit murder successfully so that your victim dies and you can never be caught by individual human or by any human justice system, what is your attitude on murder?

I could kill another person in self defense but I've no doubt that it would fundamentally change my life forever and not for the better. I think killing another person is monstrous and not simply immoral.

[Ladewig]

Suppose you can commit murder successfully so that your victim dies and you can never be caught by individual human or by any human justice system, what is your attitude on murder?


I am against murder.

If God appeared to the world and explained that the commandment against murder was rescinded, would you kill someone if you knew you could get away with it?

[RandFan]

Is there any obligation binding you not to commit suicide, murder?

I am against murder.

If God appeared to the world and explained that the commandment against murder was rescinded, would you kill someone if you knew you could get away with it?What if god ordered it?

http://img110.imageshack.us/img110/233/911n.jpg

[Tsukasa Buddha]

What if god ordered it?

http://img110.imageshack.us/img110/233/911n.jpg

Obviously, that's not the True God.

[deRoy]

Obviously, that's not the True God.

Lie.

There's at least 8 Gods.

I'm one of them.

[Hokulele]

Suppose you can commit murder successfully so that your victim dies and you can never be caught by individual human or by any human justice system, what is your attitude on murder?


My opposition to murder has nothing to do with getting "caught", but is based on my respect for others and their lives.

Are you only kept from murdering people because you are afraid of being caught by your god?

[Sun Countess]

Suppose you can commit murder successfully so that your victim dies and you can never be caught by individual human or by any human justice system, what is your attitude on murder?
Why in the world would I want to kill anybody? I rarely even get the urge to slap anyone. (And I never do it.)

I live by the golden rule, but it's not exactly a burden to treat others with kindness. It's pretty dang easy.

[LostAngeles]

Atheists, what is your attitude on suicide, murder?


Is there any obligation binding you not to commit suicide, murder?




Yrreg

My obligation to others prevents me from engaging in those. Aside from that, murder is making a decision about someone else that is not mine to make.

[Gate2501]

I wouldn't want someone to kill me, so I wouldn't kill someone else. This is called empathy, and is a product of evolution.

Suicide? Suicide seems ridiculous to me, because it is based on a prediction, that the current state of your life/emotions will not change for the better. Unless you have some sort of objective evidence that you are not going to improve(ex. terminal cancer that is extremely painful), suicide is never a good idea.

Oh wait, yrreg made the OP???

In that case, as the global spokesperson for all Atheists, I must admit that we think murder and suicide are dandy. There is no god after all!

In related news, I am feeling hungry. I think I will break into my neighbors house and make a sandwich. She better have chip chop ham, or I am gonna burn that mother down.

[yrreg]

He just got it handed to him on the other thread, "Interview with an atheist, heart speaks to heart." by a few Billy Goat Gruffs and now is trying another pitch. Watch closely as he ignores all the carefully thought out answers and devolves into some sort of reflexive creature.



Tell me what posts so far go to the drift of the question:


If you can murder successfully so that your victim dies and you cannot be caught by any individual humans nor by any human justice system, what is your attitude toward murder?



Anyway, tell me what is the drift of the question?




Yrreg

[Beerina]

Atheists, what is your attitude on suicide, murder?


Is there any obligation binding you not to commit suicide, murder?




Yrreg


We decide murder is wrong because it irrevocably deprives someone of life.

Since God can restore life at His whim, I don't know why He'd think it was wrong.

[Foster Zygote]

My opposition to murder has nothing to do with getting "caught", but is based on my respect for others and their lives.

Are you only kept from murdering people because you are afraid of being caught by your god?

People like Gerry who advance this tired old argument seem always to fail to realize that it is every bit as insulting to theists as it is to atheists. Apparently Gerry really wants to rape, kill, loot and pillage, but only refrains from doing so because he thinks the big, magic cop in the sky is watching him.

[RandFan]

Obviously, that's not the True God. But yrreg is specifically referencing atheists. The question presuposses something intrinsic to atheism. That is more than easy to rebut. Of course, according to the bible, god did order genocide, and the massacre of children. God is even reported in the bible to kill lots and lots of children.

[Hokulele]

So why bother responding to him at all?


Because every now and then he comes up with something so bizarrely hilarious, it makes all of the nonsense in between worthwhile.


@FosterZygote, exactly. It is a good thing the vast majority of theists and atheists alike have a firmer foundation for their morals.

[Sun Countess]

If you can murder successfully so that your victim dies and you cannot be caught by any individual humans nor by any human justice system, what is your attitude toward murder?
It is wrong. I wouldn't want it done to me, so I wouldn't do it to someone else. I also can't think of a possible reason for murdering someone. And I don't care who else never finds out about it, *I* would know about it, and I could not live with myself if I killed someone.

I don't need eternal torment or even a life prison sentence to keep me from murdering.

Prediction: These answers, like any similar ones, will be completely ignored by yrreg. If I jokingly mention murdering babies so I can eat them for breakfast, the bot would pick that up.

[Fiona]

Here we go again. Variation on "Why are you angry at god"

Already covered in http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=128066&page=2 amongst other threads

Why do you feel that it is the duty of the human species on earth to preserve life? because it can do so?

Answered by many people: for example Lonewulf's post

I am an atheist.

I view that it is the duty of the human species on earth to preserve life.

Why? Because all life wants to live, with a few exceptions (notably suicidal individuals, who are never in the majority).

All life wants to live; it's a universal fact, at least in all species I know of on Earth. If a species does NOT want to live, then it won't survive to carry on the genes to the next generation. As such, the following of my statements does not take into account suicidal individuals, but if you wish, add in "almost everyone" into my statements to make them more true.

In the end, universal desires seem to be two-fold; will to live, and desire for good living. Everyone wants to live, and will do what is necessary to prolong their own life. This is the bottom rung of living. The top rung of living is *good* living; good meals, good bed, lack of fear every moment of the day, a comfortable living.

We all want both. The latter should be sacrificed before the former, in my view, but the latter should be aimed for at all times, when it is perfectly viable.

Thus, in my mind, we need to spread life and continue to promote living. This doesn't just apply to humans, but to animals as well. However, I admit that we will end up having to make a sort of hierarchy of what life we consider most important to prolong. Ideally, I would appreciate all life continuing to exist (with exception, maybe, to that damned mosquito). Individual animals can die off, of course, but there should be a way to continue the species or have them stored as information or similar. The more intelligent the animal, the more I feel it should be overall protected. Yes, this includes "ugly" animals, if they meet the intelligence requirement.

Of course, defining "intelligence" is the hard part, but not impossible I feel.

Do you have anything new, Yrreg ?

[Wally]

Atheists, what is your attitude on suicide, murder?


Is there any obligation binding you not to commit suicide, murder?




Yrreg

Have you been looking in my deep freeze????:mad:

[RandFan]

So why bother responding to him at all? For the same reason I drink my own urine. It's sterile and I like the taste (paraphrased). --Patches O'Houlihan

[Ron_Tomkins]

Is there any obligation binding you not to commit suicide, murder?

No

And yet I choose not to
No God needed to tell me anything
Neat, isn't it?

[Stacy Head]

Atheists, what is your attitude on suicide, murder?


Is there any obligation binding you not to commit suicide, murder?




Yrreg

I don't ponder such questions. I do feel the binding obligation to do my laundry at some point.

[Elizabeth I]

Why in the world would I want to kill anybody? I rarely even get the urge to slap anyone. (And I never do it.)

Slapping is quite possibly the most satisfying response to a jerk there is. Too bad it's also assault.



Anyway, tell me what is the drift of the question?

If you don't know, how do you expect us to?

[Foster Zygote]

For the same reason I drink my own urine. It's sterile and I like the taste (paraphrased). --Patches O'Houlihan

So... we should throw wrenches at Gerry?

[scimystic]

Suicide? Yep, no problem. In fact I plan on it when the time comes. I can't remember having any option on when and how I came into this world. But now that I'm here, and therefore desirous of improving it, I plan to take charge of how and when I go out. No tubes or hospital beds; or kids or grandkids having to drag themselves in from stuff that they'd rather be doing in order to see the fart. Gimme that kayak and paddle, like the old Inuit.

Murder? Absolutely not. And pretty much for the same reason. I'd prefer to live in a world where old people have the courage and dignity to choose their own time and way of dying; but certainly not in a world where people murder each other. So I'll take 'A', but pass on 'B'. ;)

[joobz]

Is there any obligation binding you not to commit suicide, murder?


Murder suicides?
Well, according to Athe, Suicide is bad and murder is bad, but suicide murders are completely ok.

While this rule may seem arbitrary, such is the great all powerful Athe. I am free from considering my own morality and simply rely upon Athe's guidance.

ETA:
Athe forgives spelling errors and does not require me to have correct grammar.
All Hale Athe!!!

[HansMustermann]

Atheists, what is your attitude on suicide, murder?

Is there any obligation binding you not to commit suicide, murder?

Well, personally I think they're two very different issues, so I'll treat them as such.

1. Murder. That's doing it to some different person, who (in the overwhelming majority of cases) doesn't want to die, thank you very much. I don't see how that could possibly be right.

And, honestly, I don't see any reason why being an atheist or not should have any bearing on that one. I don't need a bogus supreme being to tell me that murder is wrong. And everyone who says that religion gives them morals is lying anyway, since they have no trouble ignoring other commandments that are on the same list.

I don't need to trace human rights to some imaginary father figure. In the end, it's all a social contract. Or you could use the term "enlightened self-interest" if it makes it sound more palatable. But the idea is the same: I don't want to be murdered, you don't want to be murdered, so we make a pact that murder is wrong.

In fact, I find it counter-productive to trace it to some mystical meaning. Because if it's just what some deity or prophet mentioned, then it's rigidly fixed and unable to adapt to what we need right now.

E.g., the 10 commandments don't mention privacy; does that mean we all need no privacy because God didn't mention that right? E.g., God is pretty damned biased against women; does that mean we can't give women equal rights because it doesn't trace back to some commandment? E.g., God is ok with slavery and corporal punishments in both the OT and NT; surely we can do better than sticking to whatever rights come from God?

I believe that by understanding that it's a social contract that we all came up with to make our lives better and more bearable, we can actually do a better job. We can sit and figure out what we all want, not what some imaginary God wants.

And, yes, that includes a big fat "murder is not ok."

2. Suicide.

Well, at the risk of sounding heartless... what a person does to himself or herself, assuming that he is an adult of sound mind and capable of deciding for himself or herself, I'm not going to try to stop him or her.

Of course, I'm all for helping him or her if there's some underlying problem that can be helped. E.g., I'd rather that he can get antidepressants if his problem is clinical depression, even if he's poor, and even if that means some money out of my own pocket going to pay for it. E.g., I'd rather have social security rather than have people commit suicide because they were fired.

BTW, that last paragraph boils down to social contracts and "enlightened self-interest" too. I don't need a God to tell me to treat my neighbours nicely. (And in fact God is used too often in rationalizations why not to.) The root of it all, whether you need a God to justify it or just a bit of introspection, is basically "treat your neighbour like you'd like him/her to treat you." You arrive to much the same conclusions either way.

The difference, way I see it, is that too often the God rationalization skips that underlying issue problem. Like telling someone that it's not OK to commit suicide when, say, they're starving to death anyway or have clinical depression and no insurance, but not doing anything to address that underlying problem. That divine sacrity of all life all too often is just content with literally preserving life, just for its own sake.

But anyway, I'm not going to force anyone to stay alive if they logically decided they don't want to. I'm all for helping them address an underlying problem, if they want help and it's possible to help, but in the end... pretty much, "if it harms noone else, do what you will." (I'm not a fan of Wicca, but I think they got that one principle right.) If someone'd still rather hang themselves, I'm not going to cut their rope.

[Robert Oz]

If you can murder successfully so that your victim dies and you cannot be caught by any individual humans nor by any human justice system, what is your attitude toward murder?


Fear of punishment is not what keeps me from murdering.

Is that what keeps you from murdering?

[Squidgy]

Atheists, what is your attitude on suicide, murder?


Is there any obligation binding you not to commit suicide, murder?




Yrreg
Suicide is selfish, I have first hand experience.

[Tricky]

Ahem.

I've just sent a number of posts to AAH, mostly for off-topic observations about other members. (And it was a difficult thing to do, since some people were quoting me. :() Regardless of whether or not you feel you are doing your civic duty in warning people, that is against the MA. Let them find out for themselves.

However there is one thing that needs special mention. The topic of this thread is very delicate. Be extremely careful what you say because of this in the Membership Agreement (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=25744).
"Advocacy of suicide or of violence to others: If you tell someone to kill or harm themselves, or to harm someone else, you will be suspended or banned without prior warning. Example: "Go kill yourself." "

This is a thing that the mod crew takes more seriously than perhaps anything else. Don't suggest such a thing, even in a joking manner. I realize this thread lends itself to such jokes, so you must be especially vigilant not to let yourself go there.

This thread is paved with eggs. Walk carefully.

[Harpyja]

Suicide is fine by me as long as you're not hurting anyone else in the process. I mean anyone. If you have people who depend on you, or people who love you, you shouldn't commit suicide. Two years ago, someone who I love very dearly had a friend who committed suicide. I was shocked to find him, a much stronger person than I, alone mourning in the school library. It was only the second time I've actually seen him cry in any way. I tried to help him out, but he wanted to be alone and I understand that (now - I was still a kid back then and my first concern was 'holy ****, holy ****, wtf do I do'). With that in my mind - if you have someone that cares about you that much, why would you commit suicide? Hell, if I just had two specific people at my side who cared about me and were there for me, who loved me that much, I'd go through all sorts of hell.

Murder is not okay. I could go through a long and convoluted explanation, but in all reality, everyone knows why.

[roger]

Suicide? Fine by me, though I suspect the vast majority of cases are due to short term problems.

Murder? What possibly could be worse than taking the life of somebody when this is all they have? If there was an afterlife at least they would have that - in fact, in comparision, life on Earth is such a tiny blip you probably wouldn't even remember it after a 1/4 of a million years. But as far as I can tell we just rot in the ground. That person loses everything, not to mention the untold pain, loss, and destruction you cause to the people who loved and/or depended on that person. That latter bit applies to suicide also, of course, but I feel your right to control your existence trumps the pain you cause others.

[shadron]

The Golden Rule can be universally applied; it does not depend upon any religious beliefs, though it seems to have its counterpart in most, if not all. It is even criticized, and, according to GB Shaw, should be replaced with "Do not do unto others as you would expect they should do unto you. Their tastes may not be the same." However, the ethic it spawns still survives. According to wiki,

There has been research published arguing that some 'sense' of fair play and the Golden Rule may be stated and rooted in terms of neuroscientific (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroscience) and neuroethical (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroethics) principles.[42] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethic_of_reciprocity#cite_note-41)

So, how do you feel about being murdered?

[yrreg]

May I repeat:

Leave God out of this thread at this point, just tell me why you feel bad to murder.


If an atheist does not feel bad or fear that in murdering anyone he might meet someone like himself who will murder him without any infinitesimally exiguous qualms of bad feeling, is that why you atheists don't do murder in the hope that other atheists will not also do you in by murdering you successfully, i.e, you die and he does not get caught by any individual humans nor by any human system of justice?





Yrreg

[Ron_Tomkins]

If you're supposedly not concerned about God, then why are you specifically asking atheists such question?

[Vic Vega]

I think almost all athiests feel the same way I do. I wouldn't murder someone because murder is wrong. Is that somehow a complicated concept, yrreg?

[Tricky]

May I repeat:
Leave God out of this thread at this point, just tell me why you feel bad to murder.
Empathy.


(I know you like short answers.)

[Sun Countess]

If an atheist does not feel bad or fear that in murdering anyone he might meet someone like himself who will murder him without any infinitesimally exiguous qualms of bad feeling, is that why you atheists don't do murder in the hope that other atheists will not also do you in by murdering you successfully, i.e, you die and he does not get caught by any individual humans nor by any human system of justice?
Please explain the bolded part. Why would I worry about atheists specifically when I'm statistically more likely to be murdered by a theist? Not just because theists make up the majority of random murderers in the country in which I live, but because I'm also considered by some theists to be a heathen, heretic, or infidel, and therefore worthy of death.

The reasons for not murdering - for me - go beyond the golden rule. I just can't think of any compelling reason how or why my life would in any way be improved by murdering someone else. It doesn't sound like a very fun hobby, or even a pleasant way to spend an afternoon. The Golden Rule speaks well to the immorality of murder, but it's not the only reason I'm not a practitioner.

[Harpyja]

It doesn't sound like a very fun hobby, or even a pleasant way to spend an afternoon.

Not to mention the cost of dry-cleaning your carpet after such an escapade.

[kerikiwi]

May I repeat:

Leave God out of this thread at this point, just tell me why you feel bad to murder.


If an atheist does not feel bad or fear that in murdering anyone he might meet someone like himself who will murder him without any infinitesimally exiguous qualms of bad feeling, is that why you atheists don't do murder in the hope that other atheists will not also do you in by murdering you successfully, i.e, you die and he does not get caught by any individual humans nor by any human system of justice?



Yrreg
You certainly may repeat anything you want. It seems to be your forte, because you certainly do not read or respond to the responses to your OP.
Your question has been thoroughly answered.

And what is an 'infinitesimally exiguous qualm of bad feeling'?
Ditch the thesaurus: torture of the English language is not as bad as torturing a person, but it is still undesirable.

[Robert Oz]

May I repeat:

Leave God out of this thread at this point, just tell me why you feel bad to murder.


If an atheist does not feel bad or fear that in murdering anyone he might meet someone like himself who will murder him without any infinitesimally exiguous qualms of bad feeling, is that why you atheists don't do murder in the hope that other atheists will not also do you in by murdering you successfully, i.e, you die and he does not get caught by any individual humans nor by any human system of justice?





Yrreg


I would not murder, because I think murder is a terrible thing to do. I would guess most atheists feel the same.

If you want a neurological reason why murder feels bad, I'm sure there are theories out there that go into depth on this issue. Google might be a good place to start.

From an evolutionary point of view, we have evolved to be a generally altruistic, sympathetic and empathic species.

[RandFan]

So... we should throw wrenches at Gerry?I'm not advocating anything but I will say that if you can dodge a wrench you can dodge logically valid argument.

[Z]

Yrreg, what is your attitude on suicide, murder?

Is there any obligation binding you not to commit suicide, murder?

What about the fact the Abrahamic God ordered murder and even genocide? Would you obey such an order without qualm or question?

Please answer in ten words or less.

Oh, and by the way:



Penis.


There, said it first.

[RandFan]

Why do you ignore it?
Leave God out of this thread at this point, just tell me why you feel bad to murder.


Life is precious. I value mine and I value the lives of others. I believe that humans are typically born with intrinsic values of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Humans are also born with empathy, compassion and innate altruism.

[wunky]

The short and simple answer is:

[Foster Zygote]

May I repeat:
You may. And, in fact, judging from experience, I expect that you will repeat ad infinitum.

Leave God out of this thread at this point, just tell me why you feel bad to murder.
Gee, all right, leaving out any considerations involving the gods that I do not believe to exist, I find murder abhorrent because it is a violation of the right to life of another human being. Murder unjustly cuts short the lives of the persons killed and causes great pain and suffering to those who knew and loved the victims.

If an atheist does not feel bad or fear that in murdering anyone he might meet someone like himself who will murder him without any infinitesimally exiguous qualms of bad feeling, is that why you atheists don't do murder in the hope that other atheists will not also do you in by murdering you successfully, i.e, you die and he does not get caught by any individual humans nor by any human system of justice?
No, Gerry, that is not even remotely close to the reason I would not commit murder. But I strongly suspect that you have already chosen this as what you would like the reason to be, so I await your further posts in which you completely ignore the responses that fail to conform to your strawman and proceed as if the above is the real reason why atheists don't murder people for fun or because they like their neighbor's lawn-mower.

[Jeff Corey]

May I repeat:

Leave God out of this thread at this point, just tell me why you feel bad to murder.


If an atheist does not feel bad or fear that in murdering anyone he might meet someone like himself who will murder him without any infinitesimally exiguous qualms of bad feeling, is that why you atheists don't do murder in the hope that other atheists will not also do you in by murdering you successfully, i.e, you die and he does not get caught by any individual humans nor by any human system of justice?

Here he is, devolving again into a reflexive creature.
Told you so.

[Fiona]

I use the phrase sexual libertinism to indicate sex without any restraints whatsoever unlike sexual liberation.


What about bestiality, are you into bestiality?

And incest?

And pornography?

And rape of children or seducing kids?


If you are not into the practice of the above acts, do you believe that it is not unacceptable for atheists?

So if you yourself should ever feel some urge to go into those acts you would not have any socalled qualms of conscience to do them?

Specially if you can get away with man-enacted laws against the commission of such acts?

I am now fully convinced that Yrreg is going to make the same thread for every one of the so-called deadly sins. I am looking forward to when we get to gluttony. That is my favourite!!

[Pantaz]

Leave God out of this thread at this point, just tell me why you feel bad to murder.
Empathy.

[Ladewig]

May I repeat:

Leave God out of this thread at this point, just tell me why you feel bad to murder.
Yrreg

I believe that people have certain inalienable rights including the right to life; therefore it is immoral and untenable to deny others of this right through murder.

I've answered your question twice. I am still looking for an answer to my question.

If God appeared to the world and explained that the commandment against murder was rescinded, would you kill someone if you knew you could get away with it?

[AkuManiMani]

Atheists, what is your attitude on suicide, murder?


Is there any obligation binding you not to commit suicide, murder?




Yrreg

Being atheists we are required to murder as many people as possible. Only when we have met our quota can we finally commit suicide and claim our reward from Satan our true master...

No really, I'm not making any of this up. >_>

[kittynh]

Wow, what a wonderful student of atheism you are.

Your sincere desire to know more about athiesm which you seem to consider some sort of movement or cult or church, and not simply a choice made by people without a leader or book or peer pressure (if only perhaps to not make this choice or come to this conclusion) confuses me.

Do you perhaps think vegetarians have some world leader?

Or perhaps people that prefer pan pizza over thin crust?

I'm not saying this to be off topic, I'm confused by your obvious confusion of athiesm.

As one of the Christians on the forum, I know the difference between a RELIGION and a GROUP and simply people making a choice about one part of their life. Indeed if you are an atheist it proves two things.

One, religion is not a part of an athiests life at all, and decisions are made be each person. Not every athiest is going to make the same decision or have the same beliefs about suicide as IT IS NOT A GROUP OF MOVEMENT OR RELIGION WITH DOGMA! ( So, your question is ridiculous. )

Two, an admitted athiest is a very honest person. The bad athiests don't claim to be athiests. They tend to lead religions.

[Babbylonian]

I'm reminded of a conversation I had recently with my sister and brother-in-law about sending their children to Cub Scouts. She liked the idea of churches being heavily involved in scouting because she wants her children exposed to "good morals." I tried to point out to her that morality doesn't have to come from religion but my family seems to fall into the "want to believe" camp (only my grandmother attends church) because they like the idea of Heaven - I think it's a nice idea, too, but in the same way that Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny are nice ideas.

Anyhoo, my answer to the original question: Murder is bad for the many good reasons already cited, having nothing to do with sky-daddy/mommy/elephant/etc.

Suicide is more complex to me in that I have little problem with someone "of sound mind" deciding, logically, that it's time to go - chronic, painful illness leading to a miserable existence without a medical solution being what I would consider one logical reason.

On the other figurative hand, there are many people who are not of sound mind, either chronically or situationally, who could probably improve their situation and get rid of the suicidal urge with therapy, medication, etc. As a society, I think the ethical thing to do is to identify those people when possible, prevent their suicide, and give them all the help we can.

[Thunder]

i am agnostic as to the existence of "God".

but i am against suicide because it is cowardice and it is giving up. life is a precious thing...

now, if you are terminally ill and suffering horribly, then its ok with me. other then that...suicide is a punk ass way out.

struggle, pain, suffering, is what makes us human.

[kittynh]

Also a suicide is often a failure of society than a failure on the part of the person commiting suicide.

[Tricky]

Empathy.

Empathy.
That's two votes for empathy. Can we make this into a landslide?)

[Unlike a Bull]

As an atheist I don't feel that murder or suicide is wrong. Same goes for adultery, thievery, lying, etc. (If those things are, in fact, wrong. It's hard for me to tell. I have no moral compass).

See, despite what some of these other atheists would have you believe, our lives are completely without meaning. We feign things like love and happiness and we blindly follow social norms with no idea as to why some behaviors are preferential to others. Were it not for the laws set up in our various countries by good, God fearing people, we would still be running around naked with spears killing each other and randomly having sex with whoever, or whatever we came across. Just like in the "good ol' days".

I know you're thinking that we should be thankful to you Godders (That's what we call you, by the way, behind your back) but you keep trying to sell us on this God thing, and it gets kind of annoying. Do you really think that we don't know that God exists? Of course we know. How could God not exist? We just choose to deny His obvious existence to snub our noses at him. Why? I don't know. I'm not that smart. If I was smart I wouldn't be an atheist.

I have a God given right to be an atheist. I choose to exercise that right.

[RandFan]

...empathy...Humans are also born with empathy, compassion and innate altruism.

Post #6.

[paximperium]

Apathy.

[Hokulele]

Mirror neurons.

[Robert Oz]

That's two votes for empathy. Can we make this into a landslide?)

...empathy

Post #6.

From an evolutionary point of view, we have evolved to be a generally... empathic species. [should that be 'empathetic species'?]

Post #47.

So that's four votes for empathy.





But where does empathy come from in an ultimate sense other than from our parents and... Stop that!

[RandFan]

Mirror neurons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_neurons#Empathy).Still, we love her anyway.

[Hokulele]

Not difficult, nerdy.

Still, we love her anyway.


Aw. :hug5

Um, what's the knife for?




(Kidding! I am kidding! Tricky, please don't hurt me, it wasn't a joke about suicide.)

[Alex C]

Oh hell yes if there was no chance of me getting caught I'd be doing all kinds of murders up in this joint. What with me being an atheist and having no moral compass, compassion, capacity for reason, concept of fairness or empathy. It is definitely only because I fear getting caught that I suppress my random desire to split wigs.

Is that the answer you want? It's not true but that's irrelevant...


ETA; Counter Question

What stopped people from murdering us up each other before the bible was spinnin this rock?

[linusrichard]

Murder is wrong. It's violence against another person. It violates another's rights. It disrupts the social order. It breaches the social contract. It does unto others as I would not be done unto. It offends my sense of empathy. These may be shallow type answers; better answers can come from wiser people. But if you want to know my belief, my belief is that murder is wrong.

I don't believe I have any innate obligation not to commit suicide, but it would be wrong for me in my situation as surely as it would be wrong for me to abandon my wife and daughter without committing suicide. My life insurance (as is typical) doesn't pay out for suicide, so it would leave them up a creek.

(That sounds really sad, as if concern for my family's financial well-being is the only thing tying me to this mortal coil. It's not - I have no desire to commit suicide; I'm just talking about what I feel obligates me to not commit suicide.)

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

I'm not exactly an atheist but-

Murder is taking away another person's life, the worst thing you could do to them. It's a gross violation of their person. The greatest crime you can commit is stealing someone's life from them and stealing them away from their family and friends.

The death penalty probably should be illegal but I otherwise advocate no or very little mercy towards killers. Life in prison and performing heavy labor is exactly what they deserve.

Suicide should be prevented in almost all cases because, in the majority of cases, the individual doesn't actually want to die. They would prefer to solve whatever problems they are having. Many people who attempt suicide change their minds seconds before death, back out and do everything they can to survive.

The people who really want to die and for whom there really is no hope, for whom it isn't an irrational decision done in the spur of the moment, who have unsolvable problems and have attempted suicide many times before- that's a different story. They should be allowed to take their lives.

[Third Eye Open]

Empathy


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empathy

You may find this an interesting read, gerry!

Or you may skip over it and and continue asking how someone could possibly feel something without god telling them too.

[Alex C]

Real atheists don't feel. Fakers.

[Hokulele]

From Third Eye Open's link:

According to Simon Baron-Cohen, an absence of empathy might also be related to an absence of theory of mind (i.e., the ability to model another's world view using either a theory-like analogy between oneself and others, or the ability to simulate pretend mental states and then apply the consequences of these simulations to others).



Hmmmm...

[Beerina]

I suspect in Christian forums, they all sit around proud as if they've thought up a good one, then come here expecting us to be stumped or have no answer or not even having thought about it.

But that's not the case, is it, Yrreg? RandFan gave you an answer. I gave you a different one (it's wrong because it's irreversible). What do you think of them?



And a question: Does God have a reason to claim it's wrong? There must be a reason beyond "God said so".

[Robert Oz]

yrreg,

Since there isn't a commandment that says "Thou shalt not slaughter defenseless kittens", is the only reason you don't slaughter defenseless kittens the fear of being caught and punished by society? Do you have a desire to slaughter defenseless kittens that we don't know about?

[Normal Dude]

May I repeat:
Leave God out of this thread at this point, just tell me why you feel bad to murder.
If an atheist does not feel bad or fear that in murdering anyone he might meet someone like himself who will murder him without any infinitesimally exiguous qualms of bad feeling, is that why you atheists don't do murder in the hope that other atheists will not also do you in by murdering you successfully, i.e, you die and he does not get caught by any individual humans nor by any human system of justice?


Seriously, why do people keep responding to this guy?

[yrreg]

I think almost all athiests feel the same way I do. I wouldn't murder someone because murder is wrong. Is that somehow a complicated concept, yrreg?



I wouldn't murder someone because murder is wrong. Is that somehow a complicated concept, yrreg?


Murder to you an atheist is wrong, why?


If you can do it and get away with it, and you find satisfaction in any manner doing it and even engaging in serial killing, why should it be wrong for you and according to you to fellow atheists?




Yrreg

[Robert Oz]

I wouldn't murder someone because murder is wrong. Is that somehow a complicated concept, yrreg?


Murder to you an atheist is wrong, why?


If you can do it and get away with it, and you find satisfaction in any manner doing it and even engaging in serial killing, why should it be wrong for you and according to you to fellow atheists?




Yrreg


Because people generally care about other people, whether they are religious or not.

[Robert Oz]

I wouldn't murder someone because murder is wrong. Is that somehow a complicated concept, yrreg?


Murder to you an atheist is wrong, why?


If you can do it and get away with it, and you find satisfaction in any manner doing it and even engaging in serial killing, why should it be wrong for you and according to you to fellow atheists?




Yrreg


If the only reason a person isn't killing people is because he or she fears being tortured in his or her afterlife, then he or she is positively evil.

[Kittyclaws]

To explain: murder is wrong in that it violates the other person's ability to live their own life on their own terms. (Not that I haven't known of some who the planet might be a lot better off without.)

[HansMustermann]

If an atheist does not feel bad or fear that in murdering anyone he might meet someone like himself who will murder him without any infinitesimally exiguous qualms of bad feeling, is that why you atheists don't do murder in the hope that other atheists will not also do you in by murdering you successfully, i.e, you die and he does not get caught by any individual humans nor by any human system of justice?

Gee, Gerry, I don't see theists putting their faith in God and disbanding the police department either. I'm thinking that that idea to deterr someone by secular means from doing it is there not just for atheists. But also how about also because of

A. some basic human empathy. Look that one up. And if you somehow simply don't get empathy without an invisible daddy telling you to do that, look up "psychopathy."

B. lack of some "invisible daddy told me to" or "invisible daddy told me it's ok after all" excuse. (See all the wars, murders, etc, which not only weren't stopped by religion, but were done in the _name_ of religion.)

C. lack of some "oh well, invisible daddy will take care of him now" excuse. (See the recent mom who murdered her son so he'd go to heaven.)

All I'm saying is: when you look at someone through the eyes of "this life is the only one they've got too", you might actually be less inclined to just shrug and let them die. Or to send them to die in a pointless war for oil.

[Robert Oz]

Yrreg,

Who is a better person?

1. Someone who really wants to kill other people, but doesn't, only because God said it was a sin.

OR

2. Someone who doesn't believe in God, but wouldn't dream of hurting anyone, because they genuinely care for others.

[Hokulele]

All I'm saying is: when you look at someone through the eyes of "this life is the only one they've got too", you might actually be less inclined to just shrug and let them die. Or to send them to die in a pointless war for oil.


I wonder how yrreg manages to justify the existence of atheist firefighters, EMS workers, doctors, police officers, ...

[Robert Oz]

I wonder how yrreg manages to justify the existence of atheist firefighters, EMS workers, doctors, police officers, ...


In my best Jerry Seinfeld impression:

"Like you didn't call me a phony!"

[kerikiwi]

I wouldn't murder someone because murder is wrong. Is that somehow a complicated concept, yrreg?


Murder to you an atheist is wrong, why?


If you can do it and get away with it, and you find satisfaction in any manner doing it and even engaging in serial killing, why should it be wrong for you and according to you to fellow atheists?




Yrreg

You don't read any posts do you? You just keep regurgitating the same stuff.
Your question has been answered and answered and answered.

Do you think murder is wrong? Why?

[yrreg]

As an atheist I don't feel that murder or suicide is wrong. Same goes for adultery, thievery, lying, etc. (If those things are, in fact, wrong. It's hard for me to tell. I have no moral compass).

See, despite what some of these other atheists would have you believe, our lives are completely without meaning. We feign things like love and happiness and we blindly follow social norms with no idea as to why some behaviors are preferential to others. Were it not for the laws set up in our various countries by good, God fearing people, we would still be running around naked with spears killing each other and randomly having sex with whoever, or whatever we came across. Just like in the "good ol' days".

I know you're thinking that we should be thankful to you Godders (That's what we call you, by the way, behind your back) but you keep trying to sell us on this God thing, and it gets kind of annoying. Do you really think that we don't know that God exists? Of course we know. How could God not exist? We just choose to deny His obvious existence to snub our noses at him. Why? I don't know. I'm not that smart. If I was smart I wouldn't be an atheist.

I have a God given right to be an atheist. I choose to exercise that right.


You are not being funny, are you?


This is some kind of a declaration of independence and self-autonomy, from God as you do mention God.


I have a God given right to be an atheist. I choose to exercise that right. -- Unlike a Bull


Actually I am not so sure that -- since you bring up God -- you have a God given right to be an atheist, and you choose to exercise that right.


You see, atheists have no identity except by their reference to God Which they deny to exist or they claim invincible ignorance for knowing.

So you must ask the people who know God to find out what are God given rights, and I am very much inclined to tell you that they will inform you there is no such God given right to choose to be an atheist, i.e., to deny God's existence or claim invincible ignorance to knowing God.


Suppose you do some reading about God given rights from theists who write about the God given rights of mankind.

And tell me what you learn from theist writers about rights given to man by God.

What is taught by theist mentors is that you have the capacity for free choice, and you can abuse that capacity by opting to do evil than good, that is not the exercise of any God given right, it is the mis-use, i.e., abuse, or perversion of a God given faculty, free will.




Yrreg

[Robert Oz]

As an atheist I don't feel that murder or suicide is wrong. Same goes for adultery, thievery, lying, etc. (If those things are, in fact, wrong. It's hard for me to tell. I have no moral compass).

See, despite what some of these other atheists would have you believe, our lives are completely without meaning. We feign things like love and happiness and we blindly follow social norms with no idea as to why some behaviors are preferential to others. Were it not for the laws set up in our various countries by good, God fearing people, we would still be running around naked with spears killing each other and randomly having sex with whoever, or whatever we came across. Just like in the "good ol' days".

I know you're thinking that we should be thankful to you Godders (That's what we call you, by the way, behind your back) but you keep trying to sell us on this God thing, and it gets kind of annoying. Do you really think that we don't know that God exists? Of course we know. How could God not exist? We just choose to deny His obvious existence to snub our noses at him. Why? I don't know. I'm not that smart. If I was smart I wouldn't be an atheist.

I have a God given right to be an atheist. I choose to exercise that right.

You are not being funny, are you?


I was going to respond to this with a detailed post, but instead...

:eek::eek::eek::jaw-dropp:jaw-dropp:jaw-dropp:eek::eek::eek:

[Hokulele]

And this is why I continue to read and post in yrreg threads. You just can't find comedy like this anywhere else!

[realpaladin]

Murder and suicide...

Both items are too complex to just state a small soundbite and be done with.

As for murder... it is pretty disruptive, but I can argue both "extenuating circumstances" and "special circumstances" (I believe that is the legally correct term, English is not my first language).

Suicide... well, euthanasia is a thing that, in my country, is openly discussed and talked about.
I believe it an act of mercy to help someone to end his/her suffering. So I would assist in that kind of euthanasia.

As for other suicides, I believe there are a myriad of reasons for people wanting to do so, most of which I think are not valid, but that is only because my life is pretty joyous at the moment.

[Robert Oz]

As an atheist I don't feel that murder or suicide is wrong. Same goes for adultery, thievery, lying, etc. (If those things are, in fact, wrong. It's hard for me to tell. I have no moral compass).

See, despite what some of these other atheists would have you believe, our lives are completely without meaning. We feign things like love and happiness and we blindly follow social norms with no idea as to why some behaviors are preferential to others. Were it not for the laws set up in our various countries by good, God fearing people, we would still be running around naked with spears killing each other and randomly having sex with whoever, or whatever we came across. Just like in the "good ol' days".

I know you're thinking that we should be thankful to you Godders (That's what we call you, by the way, behind your back) but you keep trying to sell us on this God thing, and it gets kind of annoying. Do you really think that we don't know that God exists? Of course we know. How could God not exist? We just choose to deny His obvious existence to snub our noses at him. Why? I don't know. I'm not that smart. If I was smart I wouldn't be an atheist.

I have a God given right to be an atheist. I choose to exercise that right.

You are not being funny, are you?


Hook, line and sinker, yrreg.

I think Unlike a Bull deserves an applause for this one.

:bigclap

[RandFan]

As an atheist I don't feel that murder or suicide is wrong. Same goes for adultery, thievery, lying, etc. (If those things are, in fact, wrong. It's hard for me to tell. I have no moral compass).

See, despite what some of these other atheists would have you believe, our lives are completely without meaning. We feign things like love and happiness and we blindly follow social norms with no idea as to why some behaviors are preferential to others. Were it not for the laws set up in our various countries by good, God fearing people, we would still be running around naked with spears killing each other and randomly having sex with whoever, or whatever we came across. Just like in the "good ol' days".

I know you're thinking that we should be thankful to you Godders (That's what we call you, by the way, behind your back) but you keep trying to sell us on this God thing, and it gets kind of annoying. Do you really think that we don't know that God exists? Of course we know. How could God not exist? We just choose to deny His obvious existence to snub our noses at him. Why? I don't know. I'm not that smart. If I was smart I wouldn't be an atheist.

I have a God given right to be an atheist. I choose to exercise that right.You are not being funny, are you?Priceless.

[realpaladin]

You see, atheists have no identity except by their reference to God Which they deny to exist or they claim invincible ignorance for knowing.


Yes we have. Normally we would just call ourselves 'human beings', but to distinct ourselves from the weird and sometimes wonderful 'believing in (a) God(s)' we need a label. A label that is clear to the rest.

'Atheist' suits me just fine, but it is only necessary so I do not have to say

'I do NOT believe in:
Abassi

Do not copy and paste material from elsewhere. See rule 4.

And as soon as that list is cleared up. We stop calling ourselves atheists and we all are just called 'human beings'.

Capiche?

[HansMustermann]

So you must ask the people who know God to find out what are God given rights, and I am very much inclined to tell you that they will inform you there is no such God given right to choose to be an atheist, i.e., to deny God's existence or claim invincible ignorance to knowing God.

Gee, Gerry, out of all the relevant answers in this thread, the best you can do is pretend to take the obvious _joke_ as some serious representation of the atheist position and bravely attack that? Even by your standards you can do better than _that_.

What is taught by theist mentors is that you have the capacity for free choice, and you can abuse that capacity by opting to do evil than good, that is not the exercise of any God given right, it is the mis-use, i.e., abuse, or perversion of a God given faculty, free will.

So basically your God gives you free will to do what he says, and any other use is a perversion or abuse?

That's about the same amount of free will that a mugger gives his victim in a dark alley. "You can choose to not give me your money. Of course, I'll shoot you for it, but you have the choice. Aren't I all loving and generous for giving you that choice."

But even that mugger wouldn't call it an "abuse, or perversion".

[HansMustermann]

Just to be pedantic, Realpaladin, some of the names on that list aren't gods at all.

E.g., "Tuatha De Danann" means "people/tribe/nation of the goddess Danu" (ETA: actually more correctly "people _worshipping_ Danu"), and is one of the supposedly people before the Irish there. It's not a deity as much as a massively fictionalized group of people who were the fifth to conquer Ireland and the ones who supposedly brought druidism and chariots there.

[proudnonbbeliever]

yrreg, the term atheist describes a person only so far as belief is concerned.

A person can also be liberal, conservative, mean, cuddly and any number of other appelations.

It is describing one aspect of the human being in question, nothing else.

[SezMe]

but i am against suicide because it is cowardice and it is giving up. life is a precious thing...

now, if you are terminally ill and suffering horribly, then its ok with me. other then that...suicide is a punk ass way out.

struggle, pain, suffering, is what makes us human.
This is just crap. I have (had) a very intelligent friend who commited suicide. He was not unfamiliar with the process because he helped his wife commit suicide when she became irreversibly disabled and wanted to die. He spent time in Rikers Island for his noble act.

Later, he learned he, too, had an irreversible disease that would eventually consume his mind. While he was mentally intact he decided he didn't want to deterioate like he had seen loved ones do and took his own life.

He killed himself.

He is one of the most courageous and thoughtful persons I have ever known.

Your "punk ass" comment is disgusting.

[SezMe]

Ahem.

I've just sent a number of posts to AAH, mostly for off-topic observations about other members. (And it was a difficult thing to do, since some people were quoting me. :() Regardless of whether or not you feel you are doing your civic duty in warning people, that is against the MA. Let them find out for themselves.

However there is one thing that needs special mention. The topic of this thread is very delicate. Be extremely careful what you say because of this in the Membership Agreement (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=25744).
"Advocacy of suicide or of violence to others: If you tell someone to kill or harm themselves, or to harm someone else, you will be suspended or banned without prior warning. Example: "Go kill yourself." "

This is a thing that the mod crew takes more seriously than perhaps anything else. Don't suggest such a thing, even in a joking manner. I realize this thread lends itself to such jokes, so you must be especially vigilant not to let yourself go there.

This thread is paved with eggs. Walk carefully.
Good advice at the end, but maybe you should not be modding a thread in which you are a participant.

[DC]

I respect other peoples life. Murder is wrong. Noone has a right to end another persons life, expect for direct sefdefence. I am against deathpenalty. it is moraly wrong. Not because a fantasy creature told me.

I belive Murdering someone is wrong, and i dont need some fantasy creatures telling me its wrong, or an old fantasy book telling me its wrong to murder.

Suicide? well thats everyone his own decision.

what is hindering you from killing others? the bible? or because you yourself belive it is wrong?

[RandFan]

Your "punk ass" comment is disgusting.My best friend that I grew up with commited suicide. Kenny was one of the most decent people I ever knew.

I agree with you, it is disgusting and what I've read and what I understand is that most of us could be driven to commit suicide given the right circumstances.

Hell, you can torture someone until they beg for death.

[Hokulele]

Hell, you can torture someone until they beg for death.


My cooking isn't that bad.

[zooterkin]

Atheists, what is your attitude on suicide, murder?




I think it would take a lot of planning to do them in that order...

[Ducky]

This is just crap. I have (had) a very intelligent friend who commited suicide. He was not unfamiliar with the process because he helped his wife commit suicide when she became irreversibly disabled and wanted to die. He spent time in Rikers Island for his noble act.

Later, he learned he, too, had an irreversible disease that would eventually consume his mind. While he was mentally intact he decided he didn't want to deterioate like he had seen loved ones do and took his own life.

He killed himself.

He is one of the most courageous and thoughtful persons I have ever known.

Your "punk ass" comment is disgusting.

My best friend that I grew up with commited suicide. Kenny was one of the most decent people I ever knew.

I agree with you, it is disgusting and what I've read and what I understand is that most of us could be driven to commit suicide given the right circumstances.

Hell, you can torture someone until they beg for death.

My father was a cowardly suicide. He simply got caught screwing around with money that wasn't his and killed himself in shame and fear of jail. That is a cowardly act. He was not physically ill and was a rational person who decided to end his life rather than face consequences of his own actions. You could argue depression had a hand in the act, but ultimately his was not a dire situation of facing debilitating and painful disease nor was it a case of crushing mental illness.

It is possible to have a cowardly act of suicide but blanket statements to that effect are very much going to insult the memory of people who did not die a cowardly death. I do find it in very poor taste to generalize all acts of suicide as cowardly.

I am also sorry for your losses, SezMe and RandFan. From your descriptions it sounds like your friends were most certainly not cowardly and I would hope you don't think I would imply that in any way.

[DC]

I think it would take a lot of planning to do them in that order...

Not really, just jump from a highrise in NY during rushhour? with all the people walking on the streets. :boggled:

[erlando]

i am agnostic as to the existence of "God".

but i am against suicide because it is cowardice and it is giving up. life is a precious thing...

now, if you are terminally ill and suffering horribly, then its ok with me. other then that...suicide is a punk ass way out.

struggle, pain, suffering, is what makes us human.

I take offense to that. My father committed suicide due to an untreated depression. He was in no way a coward.

I mean this in the most constructive way: (ETA: On second thought, no I don't)..

**** you!

[RandFan]

My father was a cowardly suicide. He simply got caught screwing around with money that wasn't his and killed himself in shame and fear of jail. That is a cowardly act. He was not physically ill and was a rational person who decided to end his life rather than face consequences of his own actions. You could argue depression had a hand in the act, but ultimately his was not a dire situation of facing debilitating and painful disease nor was it a case of crushing mental illness.

It is possible to have a cowardly act of suicide but blanket statements to that effect are very much going to insult the memory of people who did not die a cowardly death. I do find it in very poor taste to generalize all acts of suicide as cowardly.

I am also sorry for your losses, SezMe and RandFan. From your descriptions it sounds like your friends were most certainly not cowardly and I would hope you don't think I would imply that in any way.No of course not. I agree with you. I'm sorry about your father.

[RandFan]

My cooking isn't that bad.:)

[Seismosaurus]

Is there any obligation binding you not to commit suicide, murder?

I am obligated by society not to commit suicide or murder.

My personal code of ethics agrees that I should not commit murder.

My personal code of ethics states that I have a right to commit suicide if I want to. Fortunately I do not want to, so the conflict does not arise.

[Ducky]

My cooking isn't that bad.

Hey wait a damned minute. Why does RandFan get your cooking and not me?

What do I gotta do to get me some of that?

Talk about torture. I'm freakin hungry!

[Aitch]

Hey wait a damned minute. Why does RandFan get your cooking and not me?


Not just RF, Ducky, she also feeds her cupcakes to the ducks in the park.

They throw them back. :duck:

[Aitch]

On a more serious note, does this thread mean that Yrreg will no longer be posting on the
Interview with an atheist, heart speaks to heart thread? There's quite a few of us lurking on that thread, and we need to know if we need to move our deck-chairs and popcorn over to this one. ;)

[NobbyNobbs]

Tell me what posts so far go to the drift of the question:


If you can murder successfully so that your victim dies and you cannot be caught by any individual humans nor by any human justice system, what is your attitude toward murder?



Anyway, tell me what is the drift of the question?




Yrreg

May I repeat:

Leave God out of this thread at this point, just tell me why you feel bad to murder.


If an atheist does not feel bad or fear that in murdering anyone he might meet someone like himself who will murder him without any infinitesimally exiguous qualms of bad feeling, is that why you atheists don't do murder in the hope that other atheists will not also do you in by murdering you successfully, i.e, you die and he does not get caught by any individual humans nor by any human system of justice?





Yrreg


Interesting. Yrreg, I have a counter-question.

It seems that in general, if asked why murder or suicide is wrong, most atheists would say it is because life is precious and valuable, and should be treasured and not wasted.

It also seems that in general, if asked why murder or suicide is wrong, most strongly religious people would say, "Because God said so.".

Tell me, who is more moral?

[realpaladin]

Just to be pedantic, Realpaladin, some of the names on that list aren't gods at all.

E.g., "Tuatha De Danann" means "people/tribe/nation of the goddess Danu" (ETA: actually more correctly "people _worshipping_ Danu"), and is one of the supposedly people before the Irish there. It's not a deity as much as a massively fictionalized group of people who were the fifth to conquer Ireland and the ones who supposedly brought druidism and chariots there.

I just click 'Copy' and then 'Paste' :)

But I liked the song about that tribe anyway :)

[The_Fire]

My cooking isn't that bad.

Mine is. In fact I think my cooking is listed somewhere in the Geneva Convention as an "Unusual and cruel punishment" :D .

I'm not an Atheist, but I'm not blinkered enough by religion to honestly think that all that prevents me from throwing the annoying kids in the neighbouring garden to my workplace (making last week a bloody noise inferno) in front of a bus is the thought of divine retribution.

Write another one up for empathy. And social conventions.

[Fiona]

As an atheist I don't feel that murder or suicide is wrong. Same goes for adultery, thievery, lying, etc. (If those things are, in fact, wrong. It's hard for me to tell. I have no moral compass).

See, despite what some of these other atheists would have you believe, our lives are completely without meaning. We feign things like love and happiness and we blindly follow social norms with no idea as to why some behaviors are preferential to others. Were it not for the laws set up in our various countries by good, God fearing people, we would still be running around naked with spears killing each other and randomly having sex with whoever, or whatever we came across. Just like in the "good ol' days".

I know you're thinking that we should be thankful to you Godders (That's what we call you, by the way, behind your back) but you keep trying to sell us on this God thing, and it gets kind of annoying. Do you really think that we don't know that God exists? Of course we know. How could God not exist? We just choose to deny His obvious existence to snub our noses at him. Why? I don't know. I'm not that smart. If I was smart I wouldn't be an atheist.

I have a God given right to be an atheist. I choose to exercise that right.

I have nominated this post because I think it is hilarious :D

But, as before, it has all been done,

see post#66 in this thread http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=131117&page=2 and Yrreg's comment at post #85 See also my post #101 there.

Oh and I was wrong about gluttony: that has been done too, by Dr A at post #55 in that thread.


Have you got anything new Yrreg? If you have can we fast forward?

[Aitch]

OK, I'll be serious.

Chalk up another vote for empathy, with a touch of "we're all in this together and murder doesn't generally help the situation."

[Fiona]

On a more serious note, does this thread mean that Yrreg will no longer be posting on the
Interview with an atheist, heart speaks to heart thread? There's quite a few of us lurking on that thread, and we need to know if we need to move our deck-chairs and popcorn over to this one. ;)

Done that too: see post #159 and 160 in this thread http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=136564&highlight=move+thread&page=4

[Lothian]

Gerry's animal list

Christain

African buffalo, Alligator, American Bison, Ant, Anteater, Antelope, Ape, Ass/Donkey, Baboon, Badger, Bat, Bear, Beaver, Bee, Beetle, Bird, Bison, Butterfly, Buzzard, Camel, Cat, Cattle, Chamois, Cheetah, Chicken, Cobra, Cockroach, Cormorant, Coyote, Crab, Crane, Crocodile, Crow, Deer, Dog, Dogfish, Dolphin, Dove, Duck, Eagle, Echidna, Eel, Eland, Elephant, Elephant seal, Elk (wapiti), Falcon, Ferret, Finch, Fish, Flamingo, Fox, Frog, Gazelle, Gerbil, Giraffe, Gnu, Goat, Goldfinch, Goose, Gorilla, Guanaco, Guinea pig, Gull, Hamster, Hare, Hawk, Heron, Hippopotamus, Hog, Hornet, Horse, Human, Hummingbird, Hyena, Jackal, Jaguar, Jay, Jellyfish, Kangaroo, Kudu, Ladybug, Lark, Leopard, Lion, Llama, Lobster, Louse, Magpie, Mallard, Manatee, Mink, Mole, Monkey, Moose, Mosquito, Mouse, Mule, Nightingale, Oryx, Ostrich, Otter, Owl, Ox, Oyster, Panda, Panther, Parrot, Partridge, Peafowl, Pelican, Penguin, Pheasant, Pig, Pigeon, Polecat, Pony, Porcupine, Quail, Rabbit, Raccoon, Rail, Ram, Rat, Raven, Red deer, Reindeer (caribou), Rhinoceros, Rook, Sea lion, Seastar, Sea urchin, Pinniped(seal, walrus, etc.), Shark, Sheep, Skunk, Snake, Snipe, Sparrow, Spider, Squirrel, Swallow, Swan, Tiger, Toad, Turkey, Turtle, Water buffalo, Weasel, Whale, Wildfowl, Wolf, Wombat, Worm, Wren, Yak, Zebra, Zebu

Athiest

Lemming

[realpaladin]

Gerry's animal list

Christain

African buffalo, Alligator, American Bison, Ant, Anteater, Antelope, Ape, Ass/Donkey, Baboon, Badger, Bat, Bear, Beaver, Bee, Beetle, Bird, Bison, Butterfly, Buzzard, Camel, Cat, Cattle, Chamois, Cheetah, Chicken, Cobra, Cockroach, Cormorant, Coyote, Crab, Crane, Crocodile, Crow, Deer, Dog, Dogfish, Dolphin, Dove, Duck, Eagle, Echidna, Eel, Eland, Elephant, Elephant seal, Elk (wapiti), Falcon, Ferret, Finch, Fish, Flamingo, Fox, Frog, Gazelle, Gerbil, Giraffe, Gnu, Goat, Goldfinch, Goose, Gorilla, Guanaco, Guinea pig, Gull, Hamster, Hare, Hawk, Heron, Hippopotamus, Hog, Hornet, Horse, Human, Hummingbird, Hyena, Jackal, Jaguar, Jay, Jellyfish, Kangaroo, Kudu, Ladybug, Lark, Leopard, Lion, Llama, Lobster, Louse, Magpie, Mallard, Manatee, Mink, Mole, Monkey, Moose, Mosquito, Mouse, Mule, Nightingale, Oryx, Ostrich, Otter, Owl, Ox, Oyster, Panda, Panther, Parrot, Partridge, Peafowl, Pelican, Penguin, Pheasant, Pig, Pigeon, Polecat, Pony, Porcupine, Quail, Rabbit, Raccoon, Rail, Ram, Rat, Raven, Red deer, Reindeer (caribou), Rhinoceros, Rook, Sea lion, Seastar, Sea urchin, Pinniped(seal, walrus, etc.), Shark, Sheep, Skunk, Snake, Snipe, Sparrow, Spider, Squirrel, Swallow, Swan, Tiger, Toad, Turkey, Turtle, Water buffalo, Weasel, Whale, Wildfowl, Wolf, Wombat, Worm, Wren, Yak, Zebra, Zebu

Athiest

Lemming

Mine:
All the insects!

Ha! We 'outbiomass' you all!

[Agatha]

I am against murder and suicide

Murder to you an atheist is wrong, why? Empathy.

If you can do it and get away with it, and you find satisfaction in any manner doing it and even engaging in serial killing, why should it be wrong for you and according to you to fellow atheists?
I wouldn't find satisfaction in doing it, so your question is moot.

Fear of getting caught isn't the reason why I wouldn't commit murder, I wouldn't murder because it's wrong. Even if I knew nobody else would ever find out, I wouldn't do it because it is against my personal code of ethics.

Suicide is, as they say, "a permanent solution to a temporary problem". I can understand why people feel so hopeless that they consider it, and I wish that there was more help easily accessible for people in that state. This is an interesting web page for anyone feeling that kind of bleak hopelessness: http://www.metanoia.org/suicide/

Yrreg, you can keep trying to misrepresent other people's viewpoints but as long as you argue against a belief that NOBODY holds, your arguments will remain pointless.

[Aitch]

On a more serious note, does this thread mean that Yrreg will no longer be posting on the
Interview with an atheist, heart speaks to heart thread? There's quite a few of us lurking on that thread, and we need to know if we need to move our deck-chairs and popcorn over to this one. ;)
Done that too: see post #159 and 160 in this thread http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=136564&highlight=move+thread&page=4

Fair enough. ;)

Anyone mentioned guiltless masturbation yet? :boxedin:

[Gmonster2]

I agree with un like a bull couldn't have said it better myself :dewink:

OR ... put me down for empathy...

[scratchy]

Suppose you can commit murder successfully so that your victim dies and you can never be caught by individual human or by any human justice system, what is your attitude on murder?
Yrreg
Im aware that some believers think that their belief in god stops them from committing murder. In some rare cases that might actually be true, and lets just hope that those persons dont lose their faith. For me as a nonbeliever committing murder just seems like a horrible thing to do. Just thinking about it makes me uncomfortable. Doesnt even need a moral structure to set me straight on that.

[Twiler]

Gerry's animal list

Christain

African buffalo, Alligator, American Bison, Ant, Anteater, Antelope, Ape, Ass/Donkey, Baboon, Badger, Bat, Bear, Beaver, Bee, Beetle, Bird, Bison, Butterfly, Buzzard, Camel, Cat, Cattle, Chamois, Cheetah, Chicken, Cobra, Cockroach, Cormorant, Coyote, Crab, Crane, Crocodile, Crow, Deer, Dog, Dogfish, Dolphin, Dove, Duck, Eagle, Echidna, Eel, Eland, Elephant, Elephant seal, Elk (wapiti), Falcon, Ferret, Finch, Fish, Flamingo, Fox, Frog, Gazelle, Gerbil, Giraffe, Gnu, Goat, Goldfinch, Goose, Gorilla, Guanaco, Guinea pig, Gull, Hamster, Hare, Hawk, Heron, Hippopotamus, Hog, Hornet, Horse, Human, Hummingbird, Hyena, Jackal, Jaguar, Jay, Jellyfish, Kangaroo, Kudu, Ladybug, Lark, Leopard, Lion, Llama, Lobster, Louse, Magpie, Mallard, Manatee, Mink, Mole, Monkey, Moose, Mosquito, Mouse, Mule, Nightingale, Oryx, Ostrich, Otter, Owl, Ox, Oyster, Panda, Panther, Parrot, Partridge, Peafowl, Pelican, Penguin, Pheasant, Pig, Pigeon, Polecat, Pony, Porcupine, Quail, Rabbit, Raccoon, Rail, Ram, Rat, Raven, Red deer, Reindeer (caribou), Rhinoceros, Rook, Sea lion, Seastar, Sea urchin, Pinniped(seal, walrus, etc.), Shark, Sheep, Skunk, Snake, Snipe, Sparrow, Spider, Squirrel, Swallow, Swan, Tiger, Toad, Turkey, Turtle, Water buffalo, Weasel, Whale, Wildfowl, Wolf, Wombat, Worm, Wren, Yak, Zebra, Zebu

Athiest

Lemming

And lemmings are of course the foundation of civilisation, being capable of Building, Mining, Digging, and the more controversial skills of Blocking, Bashing and Exploding.


You see, atheists have no identity except by their reference to God Which they deny to exist or they claim invincible ignorance for knowing.

Don't make me show you the diagram again; Stop making me show you the diagram again!

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/thum_26988495a9a147df24.png (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=14726)

[HansMustermann]

If you can do it and get away with it, and you find satisfaction in any manner doing it and even engaging in serial killing, why should it be wrong for you and according to you to fellow atheists?

And if you were as deranged as to find serial killing fun, theism wouldn't stop you either.

- people who find it fun to shop on sundays or to make a buck off shopping on sundays, aren't deterred by that pesky God saying "Remember the Sabbath day and keep it holy. For six days you shall labour and do all your work. But the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God; you shall not do any work—you, your son or your daughter, your male or female slave, your livestock, or the alien resident in your towns."

It can't get any more explicit than that: don't work on sundays, don't make your employees work on sundays, don't make the aliens in your towns work on Sunday. But see if that will stop any God fearing American from it.

- a _much_ larger percentage of people aren't deterred by that pesky "You shall not commit adultery" than by "You shall not kill." It's in the 10 commandments too.

- virtually nobody gives a flying f-word about "You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or male or female slave, or ox, or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor." Consumerism for the win. Hey, it creates jobs, so let's not "what god wants" get in the way of making an extra buck, or buying a car with a wing just as big as the Joneses'.

- and I'm pretty sure that what was meant by "Honour thy father and thy mother" didn't mean "dump them in the cheapest nursing home and never call or return their calls." I'm also pretty sure it didn't mean find the cheapest shrink which can plant false memories of childhood abuse so you can hate them.

- "You shall not make wrongful use of the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not acquit anyone who misuses his name." This is funny because it's the one that God says: no, he will not forgive you if you break this one. He makes no such extra mention for any of the others, even murder, but taking his name in vain is one thing he will not forgive and forget. You're only supposed to use his name in formal prayers and actual religious occasions. Anything else he won't forgive.

But, that's funny, have you listened to Bush saying that God told him to do this or that? Or all the lunatic fringe bible-thumping to further their own goals and interests? Or "Jesus F Christ"? That's just the kind of thing the God not only forbids, but _the_ thing he warns that he will never forgive. But people do it anyway.

And going just a couple of pages further down Exodus, we find further gems like:

- "All that first opens the womb is mine, all your male livestock, the firstborn of cow and sheep. The firstborn of a donkey you shall redeem with a lamb, or if you will not redeem it you shall break its neck. All the firstborn of your sons you shall redeem. No one shall appear before me empty-handed." Do you do that? No, silly me, wouldn't want to do something for God which actually gets in the way of profits. (Like sacrificing stuff.)

Etc.

So you're telling me that the same people who break all those commandments when they want something else... that for those same people, _only_ "thou shalt not kill" is keeping them from being serial killers? If they have no innate moral sense -- or so you theists tell me -- and _only_ God's commandment keeps them from being mass murderers, then why should I trust them to be more affraid of breaking this commandment than they are of breaking the others?

Gee, Yrreg, I'm scared now. Because if only half as many as disobey "thou shalt not commit adultery" decide to break "thou shalt not kill", it'll be a complete bloodbath. I mean, why not? They swear they have no own moral sense, and they already broke 2-3 commandments. Why not this one?

[realpaladin]

Gee, Yrreg, I'm scared now. Because if only half as many as disobey "thou shalt not commit adultery" decide to break "thou shalt not kill", it'll be a complete bloodbath. I mean, why not? They swear they have no own moral sense, and they already broke 2-3 commandments. Why not this one?

Uhm... afaik, if you tally all the murders committed for religious reasons (including crusades, the back & forth over borders etc.) v.s. the ones committed for completely atheistic reasons it could probably reduce to 1 - 0 for the theists (the numbers being rounded to the nearest integer).

[HansMustermann]

Uhm... afaik, if you tally all the murders committed for religious reasons (including crusades, the back & forth over borders etc.) v.s. the ones committed for completely atheistic reasons it could probably reduce to 1 - 0 for the theists (the numbers being rounded to the nearest integer).

Well, I'm not too far from thinking the same, but my point was that there would be _more_ of those murders happening.

[Lothian]

Uhm... afaik, if you tally all the murders committed for religious reasons (including crusades, the back & forth over borders etc.) v.s. the ones committed for completely atheistic reasons it could probably reduce to 1 - 0 for the theists (the numbers being rounded to the nearest integer). It is important to separate the beliefs of the killer and the reason for killing.

Not all Christians that kill do so in the name of Christ, just as atheists don't kill for atheism.

Certainly, the people killing in the name of their God massively outnumbers the people who kill others because they don't share their non-belief of God X.

However, it is not uncommon for some to claim that conflicts the Russian revolution are atheist wars, because the main protagonists don't believe in God. That is simply not the case. The spreading of Athiesm was not the motivation.

[Femke]

Put me down for empathy, please.






*puts deck chair back to reclining position and passes the popcorn*

[Tricky]

Good advice at the end, but maybe you should not be modding a thread in which you are a participant.
That mod box was added before I was a participant in this thread, and I have done no modding since. Even though it is not against the rules, most mods deliberately do not mod threads in which they are heavily involved. I don't think you could say by my very short posts that I was getting emotional about this.

[realpaladin]

It is important to separate the beliefs of the killer and the reason for killing.

Not all Christians that kill do so in the name of Christ, just as atheists don't kill for atheism.

Certainly, the people killing in the name of their God massively outnumbers the people who kill others because they don't share their non-belief of God X.

However, it is not uncommon for some to claim that conflicts the Russian revolution are atheist wars, because the main protagonists don't believe in God. That is simply not the case. The spreading of Athiesm was not the motivation.

Ehm... I still stand by the reduction if we only take into account the people who kill others because they don't share their non-belief of God x.
And add to that the God x revision y versus God x revision z.

[HansMustermann]

It is important to separate the beliefs of the killer and the reason for killing.

Not all Christians that kill do so in the name of Christ, just as atheists don't kill for atheism.

Certainly that is a good point in its own right, but I'll still maintain that theism was an accessory in many murders, even if they weren't done in God's name.

E.g., the barbaric witch test of tying her hands and legs and throwing her into a lake -- institutionalized murder by any other name, since there was no possible outcome where the victim would stay alive -- wouldn't have been accepted without the "oh well, she wasn't a witch, but she's with God in Paradise now" rationalization. When we talk about the thousands of women burned alive for being "witches", we forget the even _more_ thousands who sank and drowned for _not_ being "witches". But it was OK to kill them anyway, see, for God would surely reward them post mortem.

There was no _plan_ to murder innocent women by drowning them in God's name there. (Unlike the ones who didn't sink and did get burned in God's name.) But it was that aberrant theism that allowed rationalizing it anyway.

Even the mass slaughter that was war in all ages, even when it wasn't a Crusade in God's name, it was indirectly rationalized via God anyway. That "there are no atheists in foxholes" canard, while it is false, it does contain a grain of truth. Even the supposed atheist Stalin did reinstate the Russian Orthodox Church when he thought it would help win the war. Because a lot of soldiers were a lot easier to send to their death, if they were allowed to believe in some divine reward after it.

[Lothian]

Ehm... I still stand by the reduction if we only take into account the people who kill others because they don't share their non-belief of God x.
And add to that the God x revision y versus God x revision z.I don't think I was disagreeing, just clarifying that we are looking at the motive for killing. Atheism as a motive is highly unlikely ever to be the reason someone kills. Religious belief however…..
Certainly that is a good point in its own right, but I'll still maintain that theism was an accessory in many murders, even if they weren't done in God's name.

E.g., the barbaric witch test.........They go down in the God column in my book, no question.

[Ysidro]

Man, someone beat me to baiting Gerry! I haven't done that in awhile. Now I'm miffed.

I'd kill for it, but my Atheist God tells me not to.

[megaresp]

Atheists, what is your attitude on suicide, murder? Is there any obligation binding you not to commit suicide, murder?
The second question is stupid and hasn't been thought through.

Suicide and murder aren't related in any way, shape or form. A person committing suicide is ending his/her own life. It's his/her life to dispose of as s/he wishes (i.e. a person owns their own life).

Murdering another person is effectively robbing that person of sovereign ownership over their own life.

What have obligations got to do with murder? What you imply is that most people feel compelled to go around murdering, but don't due to religious 'obligations'. As atheists lack these religious 'obligations' they must be a threat to the rest of society.

This is abject nonsense, and clearly falsified by the fact that the overwhelming majority of atheists manage to get through their entire lives without murdering anybody.

[Dancing David]

Atheists, what is your attitude on suicide, murder?


Is there any obligation binding you not to commit suicide, murder?




Yrreg

Yup social mores.

As to suicide, there is a good reason to prevent it when possible. In most cases (those not involving terminal illness and pain) the suicidal ideation and acts are a response to a temporary stress and emotional pain that the individual perceives as being unbearable.
So time, problem solving and a little counseling can be very beneficial.

Most people do NOT want to end their lives, they want to end the emotional pain they feel.

So helping them make the life changes to reduce the stress and perceived pain can stop the impetus to commit suicide. Usually within 48 hours.

Now as to murder, by a game theory standard, if one allows for murder as an option, it increases the chances that you as an individual will be removed. This is bad as then there is no more game.

So social mores and things that need no god to have a benefit to stopping suicide and murder.

[scimystic]

Yrreg,

I think that I now understand a little more clearly where this thread came from and where you want it to go.

I know that it’s not going to do a damn bit of good; but let me clarify a few points for you:

1. Your tactic here is a waste of your time and ours. It’s been tried countless times by people on your side who are smarter than you, and easily dismissed exactly as many times by people on our side who are dumber than us. It’s a non starter.

2. From our side, your position is at best amoral. It seems to us that a person who refrains from committing murder only because they believe that Big Sky Daddy is watching and will punish them is acting out of pure self interest. Basically, from the same motivation that prevents our dogs from peeing in our houses. We believe that human minds can do a little better than this. We see in your position no element of the desire to help one’s fellow beings, or in any other sense make the world better, which is what we generally understand by ‘morality’.

3. There are rational and esthetic components to the desire that I just mentioned. The rational (that if we value our own lives, and so would prefer to live in a world where people don’t murder each other, then we should refrain from murdering each other) is about as basic as it gets. The esthetic (that we feel some identification with, and therefore empathy for, our fellow humans, and so would in general prefer to improve their lot; and also that most of us find evil to be in some sense not worth the investment of our time*) is a little more complex, but converges onto the same result.

*Very simply, it’s too easy. It’s boring. Any fool – and even mindless natural events like earthquakes and hurricanes – can cause destruction and suffering. We find the making of improvements (discovering, designing, building, healing) to be more interesting and challenging. It’s a subtle esthetic preference that most theists seem to have a hard time in grasping.

In summary, each one of our three reasons outlined in Point 3 above cleanly dismisses your implication (that atheists have no reason to refrain from murder).

To leave you now, with your question inverted: What is it about murder that theists find so attractive as to require Big Sky Daddy’s threat to restrain them from it? :boggled:

[Dancing David]

Lemmings!
http://www.snopes.com/disney/films/lemmings.asp

[Foster Zygote]

You are not being funny, are you?

You are not being deliberately obtuse, are you?

No Gerry, Unlike a Bull was making a joke, hence the "God given right to be an atheist" comment. Get it? For someone who self-professes brilliance I find it curious that you need to have subtle humor explained to you all the time.

[Lothian]

Lemmings!
http://www.snopes.com/disney/films/lemmings.aspI know but Yrreg is a Christain. He preferes a good story to the truth.

[joobz]

Yrreg, you obviously beleive to have a superior moral code. SO let's evaluate it and see if this is true.

Is this summary accurate for a god derived morality on murder:

It is amoral to murder becuase god says so.
It is moral to murder WHEN god says so.

[Ron_Tomkins]

Oh mr Yrreg, I know you're quite an internet sensation and it's probably really hard to keep track of all the replies that accumulate over every single thread you make, but do you think you could address my question?

If you're supposedly not concerned about God, then why are you specifically asking atheists such question

[tsig]

That's two votes for empathy. Can we make this into a landslide?)

yes

[RoboTimbo]

If you can do it and get away with it, and you find satisfaction in any manner doing it and even engaging in serial killing, why should it be wrong for you and according to you to fellow atheists?

Yrreg

When you finally realize that you have no evidence for a god, will you become a murderer?

Is your god the only thing that stops you being a murderer?

Empathy gets my vote.

[Vic Vega]

I wouldn't murder someone because murder is wrong. Is that somehow a complicated concept, yrreg?


Murder to you an atheist is wrong, why?


If you can do it and get away with it, and you find satisfaction in any manner doing it and even engaging in serial killing, why should it be wrong for you and according to you to fellow atheists?




Yrreg


Because it's immoral to kill another person except under specific and extreme circumstances. The reason I adhere to a moral code has nothing to do with the fear of divine punishment.

[Ocelot]

Atheists, what is your attitude on suicide, murder?


Is there any obligation binding you not to commit suicide, murder?




Yrreg

Let me introduce you to Straw Theist and Straw Atheist anbd see how they answer.

Straw Atheist:

Well there's this big book full of laws and the only reason I don't do these things is 'cos the book says not to. I'm afraid that if I disobey I will be punished. This book is called the penal code.

Straw Theist:

Well there's this big book full of laws and the only reason I don't do these things is 'cos the book says not to. I'm afraid that if I disobey I will be punished. This book is called the Bible.

Treat these two imposters with the contempt that they deserve and you'll see that real atheists and real theists have alot in common. For a start both tend to respect and revere human life, for reasons beyond "what is written" and imposed authority. I'm sure you do and I'm a little suprised you need to ask that I do too. It's not a very neighbourly question to ask.

[Pure Argent]

Atheists, what is your attitude on suicide, murder?


Is there any obligation binding you not to commit suicide, murder?




Yrreg

Is there any obligation binding you not to?

Seriously. For the love of Cthulhu, man! Why, when it comes right down to it, do theists not commit murder? Because they have decided that it is morally wrong. Oh, you can say that the Bible is the reason that you don't go around slaughtering people, that Jesus said it was wrong, but in the end it is your decision not to eat babies. It's the same thing with us atheists, except that we don't pretend that our moral choices are right because of some book.
In fact, more acts of atrocity have been committed in the name of Jesus than for any other reason. Crusades.
In short, just give it up. Your implied argument against atheism is baseless, nothing more than simple flaming.

[godless dave]

Atheists, what is your attitude on suicide, murder?


Is there any obligation binding you not to commit suicide, murder?



Obviously not, since humans are capable of committing suicide and murder. The only thing preventing us from doing so is our choice not to.

[JFrankA]

..yeah, empathy for me too...

Can I have a side order of "set of morals without any dogma attached"?

[JFrankA]

Wow, what a wonderful student of atheism you are.

Your sincere desire to know more about athiesm which you seem to consider some sort of movement or cult or church, and not simply a choice made by people without a leader or book or peer pressure (if only perhaps to not make this choice or come to this conclusion) confuses me.

Do you perhaps think vegetarians have some world leader?

Or perhaps people that prefer pan pizza over thin crust?

I'm not saying this to be off topic, I'm confused by your obvious confusion of athiesm.

As one of the Christians on the forum, I know the difference between a RELIGION and a GROUP and simply people making a choice about one part of their life. Indeed if you are an atheist it proves two things.

One, religion is not a part of an athiests life at all, and decisions are made be each person. Not every athiest is going to make the same decision or have the same beliefs about suicide as IT IS NOT A GROUP OF MOVEMENT OR RELIGION WITH DOGMA! ( So, your question is ridiculous. )

Two, an admitted athiest is a very honest person. The bad athiests don't claim to be athiests. They tend to lead religions.

May I add that I like you a lot, Kittynh? :)





Now let's wait until Gerry posts a statement proving that he hasn't read one reply...... :D

[realpaladin]

That's two votes for empathy. Can we make this into a landslide?)

Sorry, not mine. I go for social/legal consequences.

[godless dave]

Empathy for others is why I don't kill everyone who pisses me off. It's also why I hold doors for old ladies. But there are certain people I would murder without feeling a smidgeon of remorse. Social and legal consequences are what most strongly influence my choice not to kill those bastards.

[RandFan]

Sorry, not mine. I go for social/legal consequences.
Like godless Dave I must confess that social and legal consequences play a significant role. I've no way of knowing what exactly the prime mover is or what the ratio of contributing factors is. I like empathy though. It appeals to my ego. I'd like to think I'm a moral person because I sincerely care.

But then I remember the Steve Martin sketch wherein he discovers that he is invisible (or he thinks that he is). He lists all of the things he could do to help mankind. Cut to the next scene and he is being thrown out of the women's locker room. :)

[Prometheus]

I don't 'do' murder and suicide because both are illegal where I live, and neither is a particularly good way to make friends. Would either of those propositions be any more true if I hallucinated some invisible man whispering them in my ear?

[Safe-Keeper]

I find it odd when Christians say that the only reason they don't rape, kill and torture is that they'll be held accountable when they die - when they hold as the greatest part of their religion that they'll be forgiven for whatever sins they commit while they live. How do they reconcile the two?

God: Says here you killed over three hundred people and left several thousands deathly ill for months by pouring generous quantities of cyanide into Houston's water supply.
Sinner: ...yes, my Lord.
God: Says here you've also brutally raped 24 teen girls, leading to the death of two of them.
Sinner: ...yes... my Lord.
God: you have... also my goodness... slept with another man! On the Sabbath!
Sinner: :whimpers:
God (angry glare): :grumble: ...Now. Do you realize those were very naughty things to do?
Sinner (looking at his shoes): ....yes, Lord.
God: Are you sorry?
Sinner: ...yes, Lord...
God: Do you promise never, ever to do it again?
Sinner: Ye-- yes, Lord.
God (lightens up some): Good. Now for the formalities. Welcome to Paradise! For your outstanding work as a Christian, you have been assigned an apartment in Gold Avenue 28341, in the New Eden district... :cue more formalities:

[kittynh]

It's odd how he won't answer the post of a REAL CHRISTIAN, not a faker like he is.

Hello? this is what you do for "GOD"? Your version that is.

You are a cop out Christian dude. You come on the internet, and make posts and feel all superior. You are actually getting off on this. As a Christian I cry fowl on this.

Pride goeth before a fall....and you my friend are due for one for your posts here.

Obviously the people here don't know who you are. But as a Christian you know God knows who you are. Right now He's all "dude, what sort of half hearted whack job thing are you doing here? " I don't see you convincing anyone and only pissing people off and showing them that Christians are cowardly people that play hit and run with internet forums rather than treating all God's creatures with respect and dignity. Lead by example dude. Instead you are simply turning people OFF, while patting yourself on the back. For shame. I can honestly say that most Christians would love to have a face to face talk with you about why this approach shows your immaturity not only as a human being but as a Christian.

[zooterkin]

It's odd how he won't answer the post of a REAL CHRISTIAN, not a faker like he is.

Hello? this is what you do for "GOD"? Your version that is.

You are a cop out Christian dude. You come on the internet, and make posts and feel all superior. You are actually getting off on this. As a Christian I cry fowl on this.

Pride goeth before a fall....and you my friend are due for one for your posts here.

Obviously the people here don't know who you are. But as a Christian you know God knows who you are. Right now He's all "dude, what sort of half hearted whack job thing are you doing here? " I don't see you convincing anyone and only pissing people off and showing them that Christians are cowardly people that play hit and run with internet forums rather than treating all God's creatures with respect and dignity. Lead by example dude. Instead you are simply turning people OFF, while patting yourself on the back. For shame. I can honestly say that most Christians would love to have a face to face talk with you about why this approach shows your immaturity not only as a human being but as a Christian.


Is this in the right thread? I don't see any post by Christian Dude here.

[rikzilla]

Atheists, what is your attitude on suicide, murder?


Is there any obligation binding you not to commit suicide, murder?




Yrreg

Morals do not come from a god. They are evolved along with more and more complex societies of humans. (Even social animal groups can be seen to have primitive morals)

So basically our morals have nothing to do with your idea of a god. Before your brand of religion ever existed there were morals. The "golden rule" itself comes from far more ancient origins than Christianity.

...and yet as we have already seen in this thread...gods can command murder!!


Now a question for you Yrreg; If God appeared before you and commanded that you
make a sacrifice of your own child...would you do it?

-z

[HansMustermann]

I find it odd when Christians say that the only reason they don't rape, kill and torture is that they'll be held accountable when they die - when they hold as the greatest part of their religion that they'll be forgiven for whatever sins they commit while they live. How do they reconcile the two?

In the same way other religions (e.g., most of Mahayana Buddhism) reconcile much the same proposition.

Way I see it, people:

1. Want some comforting promise for themselves or their loved ones, and

2. Want some promise that the guys they dislike will be punished.

To elaborate, they:

1. Don't want to think that they or their loved ones may be judged and found wanting. Nobody wants to think, "crap, you know what? I'm going straight to hell. Do not pass GO. Do not collect $200."

Or everyone wants to go "grandma is up there smiling down on us" and not, say, "grandma is down there screaming in agony up at us."

2. But want to think that the bully who beat them up in 4'th grade and took their lunch money, now that one will surely burn in all eternity for it.

Both happened really in all religions anyway. Egyptians didn't have an automatic salvation clause until very late (though get one they did in the end), but did the same mental gymnastics.

Nobody went, basically, "ah, dad was an antisocial prick who can't possibly said half of the 'I did not do...' list to Osiris with a straight face. He surely inherited eternal death. No point in sacrificing some food at his tomb." Or nobody went, "you know, wth, no point in building my own tomb. I'm such a prick that my spirit will be devoured anyway."

Everyone imagined that surely they and their loved ones will be forgiven and inherit eternal life. Everyone imagined that their enemies won't be forgiven, and will not.

All Christianity did was add a formalized version of that. So now you can imagine that surely grandma repented before she died, and is in heaven. But that that ex-girlfriend who dumped you in high school has forgotten to repent right before she died, and she's getting judged.

[Fiona]

Is this in the right thread? I don't see any post by Christian Dude here.

He is a christian dude: not the christian dude.

Though it occurs to me he may disagree :)

[Ryokan]

Dear friend Yrreg.

You're from the Phillipines, a very devout Catholic country. I'm from Norway, one of the countries with the highest amount of atheists in the world.

Yet, according to Wikipedia, murder rates in your country is 5,5 times higher than in mine (Phillipines, 4,31 murders per year per 100.000 citizens and Norway, 0,78 per 100.000).

How can that be? :confused:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_rates

[Vic Vega]

Dear friend Yrreg.

You're from the Phillipines, a very devout Catholic country. I'm from Norway, one of the countries with the highest amount of atheists in the world.

Yet, according to Wikipedia, murder rates in your country is 5,5 times higher than in mine (Phillipines, 4,31 murders per year per 100.000 citizens and Norway, 0,78 per 100.000).

How can that be? :confused:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_rates

This is a good question.

That being said, you don't really expect an answer do you?

[Ryokan]

That being said, you don't really expect an answer do you?

Maybe, me and Yrreg have a very special relationship. He changed me!

(See my signature.)

[Vic Vega]

Yes, I noticed that. Yrreg has awesome powers of persuasion.

[MIKILLINI]

Why are you asking atheists this question, Gerry?


Atheists, what is your attitude on suicide, murder?


Is there any obligation binding you not to commit suicide, murder?




Yrreg

What do you mean by "obligation?"

[Eskarina]

Yes, I noticed that. Yrreg has awesome powers of persuasion.

Yeah, it's called "reverse psychology". ;)

Chalk up one for empathy.

Well, that and everybody should be able to enjoy guiltless masturbation.

[zooterkin]

He is a christian dude: not the christian dude.

Though it occurs to me he may disagree :)

Oh, ok; I was a bit confused in that it was not responding to a specific post, and it's a while since I saw someone being addressed as 'dude'.

Apologies to kittynh for being confused.

[RandFan]

Well, that and everybody should be able to enjoy guiltless masturbation.I kinda liked the guilt. So now I masturbate in my neighbors back yard.

[yrreg]

Is there any obligation binding you not to commit suicide, murder?


I am obligated by society not to commit suicide or murder.

My personal code of ethics agrees that I should not commit murder.

My personal code of ethics states that I have a right to commit suicide if I want to. Fortunately I do not want to, so the conflict does not arise.


I just want to know from you what you think to be and thus accept the grounds why society does not allow you to commit suicide or murder.

Because if you cannot accept the grounds why society prohibits suicide and murder, then if you can get away with society's retaliation, you can go ahead and commit suicide or murder, because you then have no personal reasons why not to -- again, if you do indeed want to commit suicide, murder.

In regard to suicide, you say it is your personal code that you have the right to commit suicide if you want to, but since you do not have the "want to" therefore you are not in any conflict within yourself.

Still I like to ask you (prescinding from internal conflict, i.e., distaste if I can understand you correctly) what are your personal reasons why you can commit suicide on yourself if you want to, and not feel it is anything wrong.





Yrreg

[DC]

I just want to know from you what you think to be and thus accept the grounds why society does not allow you to commit suicide or murder.

Because if you cannot accept the grounds why society prohibits suicide and murder, then if you can get away with society's retaliation, you can go ahead and commit suicide or murder, because you then have no personal reasons why not to -- again, if you do indeed want to commit suicide, murder.

In regard to suicide, you say it is your personal code that you have the right to commit suicide if you want to, but since you do not have the "want to" therefore you are not in any conflict within yourself.

Still I like to ask you (prescinding from internal conflict, i.e., distaste if I can understand you correctly) what are your personal reasons why you can commit suicide on yourself if you want to, and not feel it is anything wrong.





Yrreg

It is my life, i can do with it whatever i like. self-determination.


Why do you belive it is wrong to commit suicide in case you do belive it to be wrong?

[kerikiwi]

what are your personal reasons why you can commit suicide on yourself if you want to, and not feel it is anything wrong.
Yrreg

Well it would be very difficult to commit suicide on anyone else!

A person's life belongs to that person therefore it is that person's to do with as s/he wishes.


Why would you think suicide is wrong?

[kerikiwi]

Dictator Cheney are you my doppelganger?

[catbasket]

I kinda liked the guilt. So now I masturbate in my neighbors back yard.
Thanks. I nearly lost another keyboard.

(Just to clarify - I am not RandFan's neighbor)

[paximperium]

I just want to know from you what you think to be and thus accept the grounds why society does not allow you to commit suicide or murder.

Because if you cannot accept the grounds why society prohibits suicide and murder, then if you can get away with society's retaliation, you can go ahead and commit suicide or murder, because you then have no personal reasons why not to -- again, if you do indeed want to commit suicide, murder.

In regard to suicide, you say it is your personal code that you have the right to commit suicide if you want to, but since you do not have the "want to" therefore you are not in any conflict within yourself.

Still I like to ask you (prescinding from internal conflict, i.e., distaste if I can understand you correctly) what are your personal reasons why you can commit suicide on yourself if you want to, and not feel it is anything wrong.

Yrreg I would like to thank you for the use of proper paragraphs and sentences. That is at least one step in communicating.

Now all you need to work on is everything else.

[Ryokan]

Because if you cannot accept the grounds why society prohibits suicide and murder, then if you can get away with society's retaliation...

And exactly what is society's retaliation against those who commit suicide? :confused:

[paximperium]

Still I like to ask you (prescinding from internal conflict, i.e., distaste if I can understand you correctly) what are your personal reasons why you can commit suicide on yourself if you want to, and not feel it is anything wrong.
It is wrong only in the sense that it harms people who care about you. when you are dead, you don't much care anymore.

[wollery]

Ah, I see where this is going.

God says, "don't kill people" in the bible, and that's what our laws are based on, so when you don't kill anyone you're following God's commandments.

Sorry Yrreg, but there have been plenty of societies throughout history that had the same laws, and only a few were Christian. God's commandments are mostly the same as every other set of rules laid out to govern almost every society there's ever been, and that's because they're the sensible rules to use if you want people to get along and avoid complete anarchy.

They're not God's rules, they're society's rules. Every society.

[Evolved Wookie]

And exactly what is society's retaliation against those who commit suicide? :confused:

Solitary confinement six feet under ground or, if you're unlucky, they burn you! :eek:

[Fiona]

I just want to know from you what you think to be and thus accept the grounds why society does not allow you to commit suicide or murder.

Because if you cannot accept the grounds why society prohibits suicide and murder, then if you can get away with society's retaliation, you can go ahead and commit suicide or murder, because you then have no personal reasons why not to -- again, if you do indeed want to commit suicide, murder.

In regard to suicide, you say it is your personal code that you have the right to commit suicide if you want to, but since you do not have the "want to" therefore you are not in any conflict within yourself.

Still I like to ask you (prescinding from internal conflict, i.e., distaste if I can understand you correctly) what are your personal reasons why you can commit suicide on yourself if you want to, and not feel it is anything wrong.





Yrreg

Oh I see: no, Yrreg, we did this one in March

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=137110

So far I can say that all the atheists I have the chance to exchange ideas with were Christians or people who came from a Christian culture and society, or Jews who are as an ethnic group the original worshipers of the monotheistic supreme being called God in English everywhere -- where people speak English and one of their English vocabulary is God with a capital G.

When I talk with anyone who does care to talk about his being an atheist, eventually I learn from him or find out incidentally that he was a Christian before, or an ethnic Jew

Got anything new?

[DC]

Dictator Cheney are you my doppelganger?

:) dunno , but a kiwi version of me sounds cool :D im the cheese and schoggi version of you :D

[DC]

Yrreg,
do you belive someone deserves death when he touches the mount Sinai?

19:13 There shall not an hand touch it, but he shall surely be stoned, or shot through; whether it be beast or man, it shall not live: when the trumpet soundeth long, they shall come up to the mount.

[HansMustermann]

Because if you cannot accept the grounds why society prohibits suicide and murder, then if you can get away with society's retaliation, you can go ahead and commit suicide or murder, because you then have no personal reasons why not to -- again, if you do indeed want to commit suicide, murder.

Yrreg, again: everyone who's ever had extramarital sex, did any kind of work on a weekend (tuning your car or mowing your lawn or fixing your plumbing do count), or caused anyone else to work on a weekend, or used the lord's name in anything but prayer or a solemn and truthful oath, etc... has already broken at least one commandment in the bible. So I guess they think they can get away with breaking god's commandments.

Have you ever done any of the above? When yes, then you too think you can get away with breaking the commandments. Then what keeps you from breaking the one about murder?

Or have you given away your possessions, so you're eligible for heaven? I mean, it comes straight from Jesus, it's New Testament (i.e., you can't use the "but it's obsoleted by the new covenant" excuse) and it's in there _twice_.

You didn't obey it, did you? So, you think you can get away with disobeying something Jesus told you to do, right? Then what's keeping you from murder, anyway?

Don't tell me that it was godly commandments, when you break those anyway.

[Mojo]

Yrreg, again: everyone who's ever had extramarital sex, did any kind of work on a weekend (tuning your car or mowing your lawn or fixing your plumbing do count), or caused anyone else to work on a weekend, or used the lord's name in anything but prayer or a solemn and truthful oath, etc... has already broken at least one commandment in the bible. So I guess they think they can get away with breaking god's commandments.


And don't even think of seething a calf in his mother's milk.

[calebprime]

...

Got anything new?

He's got prescinding.

yrreg

Originally Posted by yrreg
...
Still I like to ask you (prescinding from internal conflict, i.e., distaste if I can understand you correctly) what are your personal reasons why you can commit suicide on yourself if you want to, and not feel it is anything wrong.

pre·scind (pr-snd)
v. pre·scind·ed, pre·scind·ing, pre·scinds
v.tr.
To separate or divide in thought; consider individually.
v.intr.
To withdraw one's attention.
[Latin praescindere, to cut off in front : prae-, pre- + scindere, to cut off, split; see skei- in Indo-European roots.]

[Belz...]

Atheists, what is your attitude on suicide, murder?

What does that have to do with atheism ?

[Fiona]

*sighs*

I suppose I should compile an Yrreg dictionary next for the benefit of newcomers: but I don't think I have the energy

[Belz...]

Suppose you can commit murder successfully so that your victim dies and you can never be caught by individual human or by any human justice system, what is your attitude on murder?

Unchanged, actually.

I like Ladewig's question on this: if God said murder was now ok, what would YOUR attitude be on murder ?

[Z]

I just want to know from you what you think to be and thus accept the grounds why society does not allow you to commit suicide or murder.

Because if you cannot accept the grounds why society prohibits suicide and murder, then if you can get away with society's retaliation, you can go ahead and commit suicide or murder, because you then have no personal reasons why not to -- again, if you do indeed want to commit suicide, murder.

In regard to suicide, you say it is your personal code that you have the right to commit suicide if you want to, but since you do not have the "want to" therefore you are not in any conflict within yourself.

Still I like to ask you (prescinding from internal conflict, i.e., distaste if I can understand you correctly) what are your personal reasons why you can commit suicide on yourself if you want to, and not feel it is anything wrong.





Yrreg

Yrreg, what is your attitude on suicide, murder?

Is there any obligation binding you not to commit suicide, murder?

What about the fact the Abrahamic God ordered murder and even genocide? Would you obey such an order without qualm or question?

Please answer in ten words or less.

[Belz...]

If you can do it and get away with it, and you find satisfaction in any manner doing it and even engaging in serial killing, why should it be wrong for you and according to you to fellow atheists?

Ah, I get it. So to you, the only reason NOT to commit murder is because there is a god to punish you if you do ?

I'm sorry. You see, atheists don't believe in God. And they are as diverse as theists. Some of them don't murder because they don't want to get caught... others because of a little thing called empathy that you apparently haven't heard about... and some...

Oh, wait. This post is already too long for you and you stopped reading after 10 words, presumable including the quote.

[Belz...]

God: Says here you killed over three hundred people and left several thousands deathly ill for months by pouring generous quantities of cyanide into Houston's water supply.
Sinner: ...yes, my Lord.
God: Says here you've also brutally raped 24 teen girls, leading to the death of two of them.
Sinner: ...yes... my Lord.
God: you have... also my goodness... slept with another man! On the Sabbath!
Sinner: :whimpers:
God (angry glare): :grumble: ...Now. Do you realize those were very naughty things to do?
Sinner (looking at his shoes): ....yes, Lord.
God: Are you sorry?
Sinner: ...yes, Lord...
God: Do you promise never, ever to do it again?
Sinner: Ye-- yes, Lord.
God (lightens up some): Good. Now for the formalities. Welcome to Paradise! For your outstanding work as a Christian, you have been assigned an apartment in Gold Avenue 28341, in the New Eden district... :cue more formalities:

Actually that last part should be:

God: How do you justify all these ?
Sinner: But my Lord, I believe in Jesus Christ as my personal saviour!
God (lightens up some): Good. Now for the formalities. Welcome to Paradise! For your outstanding work as a Christian, you have been assigned an apartment in Gold Avenue 28341, in the New Eden district... :cue more formalities:

[zooterkin]

Yrreg I would like to thank you for the use of proper paragraphs and sentences.

Are you sure? The post you quote starts with this unfathomable sentence:
I just want to know from you what you think to be and thus accept the grounds why society does not allow you to commit suicide or murder.

[HansMustermann]

And don't even think of seething a calf in his mother's milk.

Now you're making me hungry. Do you have a link to such a recipe? :p

[zooterkin]

Now you're making me hungry. Do you have a link to such a recipe? :p

'Fraid not, but I could do you a bacon double cheeseburger.

[Dancing David]

And exactly what is society's retaliation against those who commit suicide? :confused:

Zero from what I can tell, I never saw any people who did not successfully terminate prosecuted, I met close to fifty.

[RandFan]

*sighs*

I suppose I should compile an Yrreg dictionary next for the benefit of newcomers: but I don't think I have the energy Your efforts have been quite welcome and admirible as it is. :)

[Foster Zygote]

Still I like to ask you (prescinding from internal conflict, i.e., distaste if I can understand you correctly) what are your personal reasons why you can commit suicide on yourself if you want to, and not feel it is anything wrong.

Personally, if I'm as good as dead already then suicide is a rational option. Let's say I've been diagnosed with a particularly nasty form of cancer or a degenerative illness that will cause my death within a year. I will live life for all that it is worth in my remaining time. But when I reach the point where there is nothing left to experience but agony I would prefer to die peacefully and with some dignity. Or let's say my snow-mobile flips over on the icy tundra, trapping my beneath it. At night the ice-weasels come. Assuming I have the means, a quick bullet to the head would be preferable to being devoured alive, yes?

I would not commit suicide for any other reason than to avoid an agonizing and certain death. Even the worst emotional pain can heal in time. Back in the mid '90s, one of my favorite musicians lost his 19 year old daughter to an automobile accident. Then, just ten months later, his wife of over twenty years died of cancer. I have a wife and child and I cannot imagine a more chilling nightmare than what he went through. Yet he is now married again and is expecting a new daughter this summer. The pain of his loss will never fully dissipate, but he has still found joy in life.

[Foster Zygote]

Ah, I see where this is going.

God says, "don't kill people" in the bible, and that's what our laws are based on, so when you don't kill anyone you're following God's commandments.

Sorry Yrreg, but there have been plenty of societies throughout history that had the same laws, and only a few were Christian. God's commandments are mostly the same as every other set of rules laid out to govern almost every society there's ever been, and that's because they're the sensible rules to use if you want people to get along and avoid complete anarchy.

They're not God's rules, they're society's rules. Every society.
So when I sleep in 'til noon then sit on the couch all day on Sunday just watching TV I am also obeying God's commandments? Tricky God.

[realpaladin]

If you can get away with society's retaliation, you can go ahead and commit suicide or murder, because you then have no personal reasons why not to -- again, if you do indeed want to commit suicide, murder.

Yep, pretty much! But how is society going to retaliate if I commit suicide? Put me in prison?

In regard to suicide, you say it is your personal code that you have the right to commit suicide if you want to, but since you do not have the "want to" therefore you are not in any conflict within yourself.

Still I like to ask you (prescinding from internal conflict, i.e., distaste if I can understand you correctly) what are your personal reasons why you can commit suicide on yourself if you want to, and not feel it is anything wrong.

Myriads of reasons. Euthanasia might be because of unbearable suffering and the only other option being palliative medication until the end.

To name but one reason.

[godless dave]

I just want to know from you what you think to be and thus accept the grounds why society does not allow you to commit suicide or murder.


That's not the question you asked before. You asked if anything "bound" us not to commit suicide or murder.

[Eskarina]

I kinda liked the guilt. So now I masturbate in my neighbors back yard.

That's why I said everyone should be able to enjoy it.

What happens between consenting, mature adults or between someone and their hand and/or various toys is none of my business.

But don't you miss the thrill of being watched? ;)

[paximperium]

Are you sure? The post you quote starts with this unfathomable sentence:
I was talking about proper sentence structure and paragraphs. I wasn't saying anything about grammar or content.

[Eskarina]

Because if you cannot accept the grounds why society prohibits suicide and murder, then if you can get away with society's retaliation, you can go ahead and commit suicide or murder, because you then have no personal reasons why not to -- again, if you do indeed want to commit suicide, murder.

Errr, no? Society at large might prohibit suicide and murder simply because some god said so (or so they claim), and still I can have my own personal reasons not to commit murder or suicide.

Why do I get the feeling that Yrreg sees atheists as incarnations of Meursault in Camus' "The Stranger"? Assuming he ever read the book. :rolleyes:

[Foster Zygote]

That's why I said everyone should be able to enjoy it.

What happens between consenting, mature adults or between someone and their hand and/or various toys is none of my business.

But don't you miss the thrill of being watched? ;)

What, you think his neighbors aren't watching?

[Phase Inverter]

Got anything new?

He's got prescinding.

Still I like to ask you (prescinding from internal conflict, i.e., distaste if I can understand you correctly) what are your personal reasons why you can commit suicide on yourself if you want to, and not feel it is anything wrong.


pre·scind (pr-snd)
v. pre·scind·ed, pre·scind·ing, pre·scinds
v.tr.
To separate or divide in thought; consider individually.
v.intr.
To withdraw one's attention.
[Latin praescindere, to cut off in front : prae-, pre- + scindere, to cut off, split; see skei- in Indo-European roots.]


Unfortunately, that's nothing new.

28th December 2008, 06:15 PM

You must keep in mind if you do some real thinking, that if you ask these people, theistic scientists, philosophers, artists, what is their quintessential concept of God, prescinding ( look up that word prescinding because someone here thought it is not any current English term ) God's dealings with Jews and then Christians and then Muslims, they will tell you:

Of course the quintessential concept of God is:

God is an existent entity independent of man's mind, the creator of heaven and earth and everything.
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=4300750&highlight=prescinding#post4300750

[Fiona]

Unfortunately, that's nothing new.


http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=4300750&highlight=prescinding#post4300750

Oh, well spotted, Phase Inverter!! :D

[Eskarina]

What, you think his neighbors aren't watching?

In that case, let's hope Randfan doesn't know about it, because it would take away some of the fun. :duck:

[Foster Zygote]

I was just playing this song on my guitar and thought it appropriate for this thread.

Murder by Numbers

Once that you've decided on a killing
First you make a stone of your heart
And if you find that your hands are still willing
Then you can turn a murder into art

There really isn't need for bloodshed
You just do it with a little more finesse
If you can slip a tablet into someone's coffee
Then it avoids an awful lot of mess

It's murder by numbers one two three
It's as easy to learn as your ABC

Now if you have a taste for this experience
And you're flushed with your very first success
Then you must try a twosome or a threesome
And you'll find your conscience bothers you much less

Because murder is like anything you take to
It's a habit-forming need for more and more
You can bump off every member of your family
And anybody else you find a bore

Because it's murder by numbers one two three
It's as easy to learn as your ABC

Now you can join the ranks of the illustrious
In history's great dark hall of fame
All our famous killers were industrious
At least the ones that we all know by name

But you can reach the top of your profession
If you become the leader of the land
For murder is the sport of the elected
And you don't need to lift a finger of your hand

Because it's murder by numbers one two three
It's as easy to learn as your ABC
Murder by numbers one two three
It's as easy to learn as your A, B, C, D, E,..........

[kittynh]

Dear friend Yrreg.

You're from the Phillipines, a very devout Catholic country. I'm from Norway, one of the countries with the highest amount of atheists in the world.

Yet, according to Wikipedia, murder rates in your country is 5,5 times higher than in mine (Phillipines, 4,31 murders per year per 100.000 citizens and Norway, 0,78 per 100.000).

How can that be? :confused:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_rates

Did he answer the question yet?

[JFrankA]

Did he answer the question yet?

No, sorry, he just pontificated his orginial question.... :(

[Fiona]

He doesn't answer questions, kittynh

[realpaladin]

You are become Fiona, destroyer of threads!

*bow*

[Fiona]

You say that like it is a good thing :)

Sigged!

[realpaladin]

It is the way you do it! :)

[kerikiwi]

That's not the question you asked before. You asked if anything "bound" us not to commit suicide or murder.

Are you sure? The question is so impenetrable it is hard to fathom exactly what it is...

[RandFan]

Because it's murder by numbers one two three
It's as easy to learn as your ABC
Murder by numbers one two three
It's as easy to learn as your A, B, C, D, E,..........The Police, words by Sting and Andy Summer vocals by Sting.

[Pure Argent]

So... has yrreg given up or what?

[RandFan]

In that case, let's hope Randfan doesn't know about it, because it would take away some of the fun. :duck::)

[Belz...]

Why do I get the feeling that Yrreg sees atheists as incarnations of Meursault in Camus' "The Stranger"? Assuming he ever read the book. :rolleyes:

Gosh, I hate that book.

[Belz...]

So... has yrreg given up or what?

Never!! Worst case, he'll just start another thread.

[Eskarina]

So... has yrreg given up or what?

Patience! I'm sure Yrreg is busy leafing through various dictionaries to dazzle us with a new word in his vocabulary. Like "lucubration" or "afflatus".

[RoboTimbo]

Dear friend Yrreg.

You're from the Phillipines, a very devout Catholic country. I'm from Norway, one of the countries with the highest amount of atheists in the world.

Yet, according to Wikipedia, murder rates in your country is 5,5 times higher than in mine (Phillipines, 4,31 murders per year per 100.000 citizens and Norway, 0,78 per 100.000).

How can that be? :confused:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_rates

yrreG, we would all like an answer to this. Feel free to use more than 10 words, but they must all make sense and not be repeated.

[Eskarina]

Gosh, I hate that book.

You get an apathetic, fatalist protagonist who murders and commits suicide by proxy without remorse, because death is the end of everything. What's not to like about him?

What are you: an atheist or an Yrreg?

[SezMe]

yrreG, we would all like an answer to this. Feel free to use more than 10 words, but they must all make sense and not be repeated.
See, here's where RoboTimbo drove yrreg out of the thread. :)

[Vic Vega]

Did he answer the question yet?

You're joking, right? Are you new to this forum?



:D

[MIKILLINI]

Did he answer the question yet?

The odds of Gerry answering a question directly is less than 1%.

[yrreg]

And exactly what is society's retaliation against those who commit suicide? :confused:


Ryokan, I am most disappointed that you are not conversant with the different aspects of the topic of suicide.


Retaliation on the suicide's family and friends, also if the suicide be religious retaliation on his afterlife situation, if he does have any thoughts of any afterlife.

Do more readings on why Buddhists of the Far East also prohibit suicide and how Buddhist establishments in the Far East deal with suicide.

Buddhists of the Far East are at pains to convince the Western World that they don't condone suicide.


You Western Buddhists have no tradition of Buddhism except the ancient written records on which you pin your expectations to find confirmations of all the random blindness of your obsession against order and beauty and an intelligent universe.





Yrreg

[JFrankA]

Ryokan, I am most disappointed that you are not conversant with the different aspects of the topic of suicide.


Retaliation on the suicide's family and friends, also if the suicide be religious retaliation on his afterlife situation, if he does have any thoughts of any afterlife.

Do more readings on why Buddhists of the Far East also prohibit suicide and how Buddhist establishments in the Far East deal with suicide.

Buddhists of the Far East are at pains to convince the Western World that they don't condone suicide.


You Western Buddhists have no tradition of Buddhism except the ancient written records on which you pin your expectations to find confirmations of all the random blindness of your obsession against order and beauty and an intelligent universe.


The odds of Gerry answering a question directly is less than 1%.

....case in point.....

[yrreg]

No need to read further in the expectation of finding posts from thinkers who can use their intelligence to go deep to the very most ultimate grounds why suicide is wrong or not wrong and also why murder is wrong or not wrong.


Atheists are from my impression in reading their posts, either invincibly ignorant or brazenly hiding behind the the walls or detaining themselves within their self-built dungeon, from coming to the knowledge of anything on its most ultimate foundations beyond which nothing more can be said or discussed about except to realize the impasse among the discussants.





Yrreg

[RoboTimbo]

No need to read further in the expectation of finding posts from thinkers who can use their intelligence to go deep to the very most ultimate grounds why suicide is wrong or not wrong and also why murder is wrong or not wrong.


Atheists are from my impression in reading their posts, either invincibly ignorant or brazenly hiding behind the the walls or detaining themselves within their self-built dungeon, from coming to the knowledge of anything on its most ultimate foundations beyond which nothing more can be said or discussed about except to realize the impasse among the discussants.





Yrreg

The translation would be, "I had it handed to me again."

[Hokulele]

No need to read further in the expectation of finding posts from thinkers who can use their intelligence to go deep to the very most ultimate grounds why suicide is wrong or not wrong and also why murder is wrong or not wrong.


Suicide = personal choice. It is not my place to generalize (as in all suicide is good or all suicide is bad), but I can only treat each individual's choice on a case by case basis. Some suicide is wrong, some is not wrong. I refuse to judge where I have no knowledge (or compassion).

Murder = wrong = mirror neurons.

Atheists are from my impression in reading their posts, either invincibly ignorant or brazenly hiding behind the the walls or detaining themselves within their self-built dungeon, from coming to the knowledge of anything on its most ultimate foundations beyond which nothing more can be said or discussed about except to realize the impasse among the discussants.


And you seem to be avoiding all of the thoughful, well-constructed arguments. What is it you are hiding from?

[joobz]

No need to read further in the expectation of finding posts from thinkers who can use their intelligence to go deep to the very most ultimate grounds why suicide is wrong or not wrong and also why murder is wrong or not wrong.
Thank you for the warning regarding your posts. But I think it is rather obvious to everyone that your posts are devoid of intelligence and deep thought.

[Fiona]

No need to read further in the expectation of finding posts from thinkers who can use their intelligence to go deep to the very most ultimate grounds why suicide is wrong or not wrong and also why murder is wrong or not wrong.


Atheists are from my impression in reading their posts, either invincibly ignorant or brazenly hiding behind the the walls or detaining themselves within their self-built dungeon, from coming to the knowledge of anything on its most ultimate foundations beyond which nothing more can be said or discussed about except to realize the impasse among the discussants.

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=132727:

You have done this one too, in January. For example, post #117

I really have very serious doubt whether atheists are born naive or playing naive, either way they are not exhibiting intelligence before people who take them seriously, for continuously failing to take into their attention that this thread is about human persons in regard to intelligence in their worldviews, specifically the intelligence of atheists in embracing the worldview of atheism.


Got anything new ?

[JFrankA]

No need to read further in the expectation of finding posts from yrreg who can use his intelligence to go deep to the very most ultimate grounds why suicide is wrong or not wrong and also why murder is wrong or not wrong.


yrreg is from my impression in reading his posts, either invincibly ignorant or brazenly hiding behind the the walls or detaining himself within his self-built dungeon, from coming to the knowledge of anything on its most ultimate foundations beyond which nothing more can be said or discussed about except to realize the impasse among the discussants.

JFrankA



....sorry, I couldn't resist.... it just seemed to fit.... :D

[HansMustermann]

Well, it really depends on the country in that case too. Buddhism diverged in a lot of different directions in different places. Zen Buddhism was entirely different from Tibetan Buddhism in many aspects for example.

The Japanese have had pretty much an obsession with suicide for example, and judging by their suicide rate, a lot still do.

Although at various points it was indeed require to ask for the master's permission, and indeed in most cases you'd be _required_ by your master to commit seppuku, a lot did it without permission e.g., as

- junshi: following one's Lord in death, e.g., when the Lord was killed on the battlefield. It was discouraged by the bakufu, and technically illegal since the 7'th century, as it removed a lot of perfectly good samurai from the pool, but it happened. A lot.

Note that since under the Tokugawa bakufu warfare pretty much ceased to exist, it became popular to do it also when the lord had died a peaceful death of old age in his bed. Probably the most dramatic case was when shogun Tokugawa Iemitsu died in 1651 and pretty much everyone on the council who shared his political views followed him in death, resulting in a rather abrupt shift in politics as everyone left didn't.

- funshi: as a way to protest anything one found indignant

- kanshi: as a way to protest a decision of one's Lord

Etc.

They had such a love of seppuku, that a lot of theatre plays ended somewhat abruptly by just the protagonist just announcing that he's gonna commit seppuku, and actually doing it. (Well, simulated, it didn't mean the actor actually died.) Sorta like how the Greeks and Romans used a Deus Ex Machina, literally a god lowered with a pulley to set everything straight when the author ran out of time or inspiration to tie all knots otherwise, the Japanese had suicide as a way to end it there.

Real badasses didn't even do proper seppuku, but jūmonji giri, where you'd do a cross cut on your abdomen but have no second guy to chop your head off and put you out of your misery. You'd just wait half an hour or so until blood loss got you.

The last known guy to do that was General Nogi in 1912, for no other reason than wanting to follow his Emperor in death. Not only did he cut his belly and wait to bleed to death, but he neatly buttoned back his uniform after performing the cuts.

Though the baddass of the millenium goes to Muira Yoshimoto in 1516 who managed to actually behead _himself_.

Ok, so that was a bit of a detour, but you just have to pull a Yakov Smirnoff and go, "What a country!" ;)

At any rate, obviously Buddhism didn't work as a way to prevent all that.

[Agatha]

Every time I see the word "discussants" I think "croissants". That's tomorrow's breakfast sorted. That may be off topic but it is, after all, a yrreg thread where most of us are having a lively discussion and occasionally the thread starter pops in with a bunch of insulting word salad to prove he just ain't listening to a single word.

Murder is always wrong in my view, because human life is the most precious thing we have. I don't want to lose my life on the whim of another, so I could not take a human life. Empathy is what is at the root of this, despite yrreg's denial of people's answers.

As for suicide, I repeat that for most people it is a permanent solution to a temporary problem, and more needs to be done in crisis intervention to help those in despair.

[Ducky]

Wait. I get it now.

I see the light, gerry. (http://www.dokimos.org/ajff/)

[Humanzee]

Gahhhh! Damn you Ducky and your webby links.

[Fiona]

Wait. I get it now.

I see the light, gerry. (http://www.dokimos.org/ajff/)

Cue Yrreg's smug assertion that he has made a convert: 3..2....

[Agatha]

Wait. I get it now.

I see the light, gerry. (http://www.dokimos.org/ajff/) Man, that needs an epilepsy warning.

[Ryokan]

Ryokan, I am most disappointed that you are not conversant with the different aspects of the topic of suicide.


Retaliation on the suicide's family and friends, also if the suicide be religious retaliation on his afterlife situation, if he does have any thoughts of any afterlife.

Do more readings on why Buddhists of the Far East also prohibit suicide and how Buddhist establishments in the Far East deal with suicide.

Buddhists of the Far East are at pains to convince the Western World that they don't condone suicide.


You Western Buddhists have no tradition of Buddhism except the ancient written records on which you pin your expectations to find confirmations of all the random blindness of your obsession against order and beauty and an intelligent universe.





Yrreg

What had that to do with anything I wrote to you?

You Eastern Christians are very good at deflecting. And murdering each other, according to the statistics. Maybe you Eastern Christians should brush up on your 10 commandments.

[rikzilla]

Did he answer the question yet?

No and he didn't even attempt my question either!

...and after I very nicely answered his! (sniff) Meanie!

-z

[Fiona]

What had that to do with anything I wrote to you?



[sings] Honey, how come you have to ask him that? [/sings}

[Lucian]

<snip>
Retaliation on the suicide's family and friends, also if the suicide be religious retaliation on his afterlife situation, if he does have any thoughts of any afterlife.

Is there a predicate in this sentence? I'm baffled.

[Ducky]

Is there a predicate in this sentence? I'm baffled.

There has to be! Gerry uses big words so he must know English good!

[kerikiwi]

No need to read further in the expectation of finding posts from thinkers who can use their intelligence to go deep to the very most ultimate grounds why suicide is wrong or not wrong and also why murder is wrong or not wrong.


Atheists are from my impression in reading their posts, either invincibly ignorant or brazenly hiding behind the the walls or detaining themselves within their self-built dungeon, from coming to the knowledge of anything on its most ultimate foundations beyond which nothing more can be said or discussed about except to realize the impasse among the discussants.





Yrreg

Holy Peppermint Patty Gerry! Who taught you English? I am beginning to think capital punishment might not be so bad for someone who tortures the English language so.

[rikzilla]

Gerry!!! Ah have seen the errors of my ways!!!



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-NOZU2iPA8

[RandFan]

Gerry!!! Ah have seen the errors of my ways!!!



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-NOZU2iPA8

:rolleyes: Suddenly suicide doesn't sound all that bad.

[Robert Oz]

Atheists are from my impression in reading their posts, either invincibly ignorant or brazenly hiding behind the the walls or detaining themselves within their self-built dungeon, from coming to the knowledge of anything on its most ultimate foundations beyond which nothing more can be said or discussed about except to realize the impasse among the discussants.


yrreg,

I don't understand how you have come to the above conclusion. Many posters have given the ultimate foundations of believing that murder is wrong. Human beings have evolved to be empathetic. This is not hiding behind ignorance. It is a clear, precise answer. There are some very good, rational theories as to why and how empathy came about (I can go into it further if you like, but I doubt you'll read it).

Likewise, whether an atheist believes suicide is wrong is usually due to empathy. When I hear of the suicide of a person who is suffering a painful, terminal illness, I don't think suicide is wrong, because I feel for the suffering person (empathy). When I hear of the suicide of a person who seems to be suffering temporary difficulties in life or suffering from depression I don't think they should commit suicide, again, because I feel for the person and for the person's loved ones and understand that there may be other ways around his or her current problems (empathy again).

What is wrong with the above answer?

[rikzilla]

Gerry...I am disgusted by you as a discussant who won't discuss!!

I asked you a question...you have not answered it. You have avoided questions from several of my fellow atheists!!

Why????

-z

BTW: I have seen far better xtian apologists come and go around here man. You are seriously bush-league.

[yrreg]

If you want me to answer to your thoughts, send me a pm.



There are so many of you here, and I am only one.

I can't be reading all your posts and wasting my time and trouble and learning nothing but frivolities and ignorance protestations from you.


So, be practical and send me a pm if you do have any inkling about the ultimate last grounds for suicide being wrong or not wrong and also murder.

And to make sure that your pm is taking up what I want you to deal with, namely, the ultimate grounds beyond which nothing more can be added or repeated.

Do take the courage to ask an intelligent and well-read and seriously thinking person to go over your pm.

Then you might stand to gain the skill of thinking productively instead of disgorging rancid slogans from your emotive shallow mob haranguers bereft of ratiocinative depth.

I can see where you are heading in the first ten words of your post, namely, into frivolities.

So, make your first ten words count, otherwise I will not continue reading.


If you want to see in this post arrogance from me, that is your privilege; but I am just being economical with my time and trouble.


Just see to it that you don't have to resort to mention of vaginal discharge in your post, if you want me to read your posts or your pm's with some attention befitting anything that is deserving of my concentration on anything intelligent.





Yrreg