The full moons effects on schizophrenia

[Zeuzzz]

Various people I know who work with people in mental health say that peoples conditions often get worse (In particular, psychotic episodes for schizophrenic patients) whenever theres a full moon. Some people who I know that have worked in the field of schizophrenia their entire lifetimes (some of of which are respected managers of major mental health organizations) all say the same thing, which they have each noticed individually and independantly of each other. Anyone else heard this? any evidence to back it up? or any reason behind it people can think of?

Found this study, which rules out effects on most mental health conditions, and only found a correlation with schizophrenia:

Lunacy revisited. The influence of the moon on mental health and quality of life (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10820695) J Psychosoc Nurs Ment Health Serv. 2000 May;38(5):28-35

The idea that the stars and planets may influence human health and behavior can be traced to at least Roman times, and research suggests a high proportion of health professionals continue to hold this belief. Nevertheless, evidence for the supposed influence of the moon on human behavior has proved particularly elusive, and research has tended to suffer from weaknesses in methodology and data analysis. This article reports findings drawn from a re-analysis of data from a research study into the functioning of a sample of mentally ill people living in the community. The mental health and quality of life of a sample of 100 people were assessed on four occasions during a 30-month period. Data were aggregated to represent the span of one lunar month, with scores being allocated to the relevant week of the lunar cycle during which each assessment was made. Comparison of mean values across the weeks of the lunar cycle was preformed using the ANOVA, Results showed significant change at the time of the full moon only in subjects with a diagnosis of schizophrenia (n = 56), where deterioration was observed in three areas of psychopathology and one area of quality of life. Some implications for nursing practice are discussed, and it is suggested that future research into the possibility of a lunar effect on human life should focus on the direct measurement of functioning in people with schizophrenia.


And this one too rules out any effect the full moon may have on various other mental health disorders, apart from schizophrenia. They say the effect "was not significant" but dont really explain why.

http://www.gjpsy.uni-goettingen.de/gjp-article-owens.pdf
In what appears to be the only study examining the impact of the moon on quality of life, Barr (2000) reports that the mental health of patients living with the condition of schizophrenia will deteriorate during the time of the full moon. Secondary analysis of a series of face-to-face assessments with 100 patients with varying psychiatric disorders he reports that during the week of the full moon evidence was found to suggest deterioration both in the mental well being and their quality of life. Four separate interviews with each of the participant were conducted over a 30-month period for mental state and quality of life. He reports a significant decrease in mental state, measured by the Brief Psychiatric Rating Scale, in the group of patients with schizophrenia around the full moon. The other group- categorised as “mood disorder” showed no change during the lunar cycle.

[Bikewer]

I wonder if there could be a self-reinforcing effect? "Full Moon" craziness is a myth deeply ingrained in our culture, and schizophrenics, with a tendency towards paranoia anyway, might be especially attentive to such things as Moon phases.

[Dancing David]

If you look at hospital admission and jail records there is no increase in psychosis with teh advent of the full moon, at least that rises above the noise level.

Admissions are related to the season of the yaer to some extent.

Also you would have to blind the study, the participants would have to not know the pase of the moon.

[MattusMaximus]

I chalk this myth up to the confirmation bias and communal reinforcement of those working at mental institutions: nurses, social workers, police, etc. Here's more info on this full-moon myth...

http://www.skepdic.com/fullmoon.html

[Eos of the Eons]

Schizophrenics get overstimulated easily. A normal brain is usually able to shut out things that are not significant. If I ask you to count all the red things in the room, and then blindfold you and instead asked how many blue things you saw... you wouldn't be able to tell me what was blue let alone how many, only what was red. A schizophrenic loses this focus, notices pretty much everything even when they try to make just one thing their focus, and this is highly distractable as a result.

A full moon night is different than a non-full moon night. There is more light, more people are usually running around later, etc. There are many things that are even just a minor bit different on a full moon night that can cause a schizophrenic brain to "notice" and be stimulated by, when a normal brain may notice but disregard without you knowing.

http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/bb/neuro/neuro02/web2/schan.html

Patients with schizophrenia process irrelevant information that intrudes into their consciousness and causes distractibility. During a psychotic episode, the cognitive defect plays a major part. They are unable to organize inputs into a larger picture to provide context. Hence, schizophrenics fail to control the contents of their consciousness (2) (http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/bb/neuro/neuro02/web2/schan.html#2).

[Zeuzzz]

A full moon night is different than a non-full moon night. There is more light, more people are usually running around later, etc. There are many things that are even just a minor bit different on a full moon night that can cause a schizophrenic brain to "notice" and be stimulated by, when a normal brain may notice but disregard without you knowing.

http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/bb/neuro/neuro02/web2/schan.html


Interesting link.

And very good explanation! I think that could just about cover this effect.

[Jeff Corey]

A friend's father was a bartender for years at a neighborhood gin mill. He propagated the urban legend of "The Mooner", the mild mannered customer who would go all luney when the moon was full.
People would act up and he would say to me, "Hey, Lookit, I told you. Full moon, right?"
"Nino, according to this newspaper here, it's a new moon."
"That's just as bad, stands to reason."

[rjh01]

The word lunatic is from the word moon (or a similar word).

This is one big placebo effect.

[Caradoc]

Schizophrenics get overstimulated easily. A normal brain is usually able to shut out things that are not significant. If I ask you to count all the red things in the room, and then blindfold you and instead asked how many blue things you saw... you wouldn't be able to tell me what was blue let alone how many, only what was red. A schizophrenic loses this focus, notices pretty much everything even when they try to make just one thing their focus, and this is highly distractable as a result.

A full moon night is different than a non-full moon night. There is more light, more people are usually running around later, etc. There are many things that are even just a minor bit different on a full moon night that can cause a schizophrenic brain to "notice" and be stimulated by, when a normal brain may notice but disregard without you knowing.

I'm curious how you came up with that part. How exactly, is a full moon night different? And are there really more people running around late? I've never noticed anyone scheduling later nights because they have the full moon to work by. (People these days seem pretty disassociated from the lunar cycle, I doubt many people could correctly give tomorrow's phase when asked.) I'm curious what the "etc" is too, could you elaborate?

I've spent several years working in this field, and my wife has spent well over a decade in it, and we laugh about this one every time we see it. It's complete bunk. There's a fairly long list of studies showing it. As far as the 81% of workers quoted as believing it, well, once you go below the R.N. level in this field the quality and education drops dramatically. Even the more educated will often fall prey to confirmation bias and personal anecdotal evidence.

As for the overstimulation of schizophrenics because of more light on a full moon? I think that you're reaching there. I didn't see it referenced in your article, did I miss it, or did you come up with this from somewhere else?

Just some basic questions about the "more light theory". How does that account for changes in patients who sleep during the night? What changes could we expect if it's raining during the full moon phase? What about early moonrise (particularly when visible pre-sunset)? Late moonrise? If the quantity of light impacted them, wouldn't we see a curve from full to new moon back to full (much like a sine wave)?

The main problem I have with this study is that schizophrenia isn't a clear cut diagnosis. It covers a very broad range of symptoms and is a very subjective diagnosis. While some cases may be very "clearly" schizophrenia, you often have schizo-affective or plain psychosis. I've seen hundreds of patients who have been diagnosed with schizophrenia, and many of them are often diagnosed differently (e.g. schizo-affective, Psychosis N.O.S., or even bipolar with psychotic features.) by different doctors. Any study that attempts a large scale analysis like Barr's would be inherently including an unusually large number of misidentified samples -- it's not like diagnosing someone with diabetes, where you can clearly state it is or isn't.

[Dancing David]

In my limited sample of mental health.

It is more of 'an excuse', people act crazy and then say "there is a full moon".

Only two recent hits in PubMed

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7886164
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17256692

[JoeTheJuggler]

I'd like to see a prospective study replicate the findings of the two secondary analyses of data cited in the OP before I worry about trying to come up with an explanation for a correlation between the full moon and psychotic episodes in schizophrenics.

(Also, the descriptions of the two studies in the OP sound so similar, that I wonder if it's the same study?)

[quarky]

Moonlight is conducive to staying up late and being able to see enough to get into trouble.

[JoeTheJuggler]

Moonlight is conducive to staying up late and being able to see enough to get into trouble.

Again, I don't think even this explanation is necessary, since there's very little evidence that there is something that needs explaining.

Also, this explanation would suggest that all sorts of other problems would correlate to the full moon, but they don't.

I think the study mentioned in the OP (and I think the two are really the same one--or at least they're using the same dataset), was more of a fishing trip. They were looking for ANY correlations with the full moon. It's a different story if you start out with a clear hypothesis (that psychotic episodes in schizophrenics are more likely to occur during the full moon).

Also, the study linked episodes to the date of full moons, and not to the time of day (or whether the person was outside at the time). At least some of these episodes probably occurred in the day time, so the "extra light" explanation doesn't wash. Further, the study didn't take weather into account. On a cloud-covered night, the full moon does not provide additional light. Also, we do have artificial light --even outdoors--so there's no obstacle to staying up late and getting into trouble regardless of the phase of the moon.

Again, first establish if there's a phenomenon in need of explanation before trying to come up with an explanation.

[Safe-Keeper]

Two words: Confirmation bias.

[realpaladin]

Both us RealPaladin's do agree.

[blutoski]

I'm curious how you came up with that part. How exactly, is a full moon night different?

These are my thoughts, too: in Vancouver it's irrelevant whether it's a full moon or not. The light on the ground is pretty consistent under artificial lights and cloud cover.

Having said that, you only need one subject to have "a thing about full moons" to give you significant results in a small sample.

It might be better to say that some patients are aware of the moon's cycle and let it get to them. But a therapist would probably already have come across this during conversation, along with the patient's other idiosyncracies.

[JoeTheJuggler]

Two words: Confirmation bias.

I agree.

As I said, that re-analysis of data previously collected from interviews over a 30 month period was more of a fishing trip. It did not start off with the hypothesis that schizophrenics are more likely to have troubles during a full moon. (Compare this to that one prayer study that concluded prayer was effective, though that conclusion wasn't based on the hypothesis stated at the beginning.)

From what I can see, the hypothesis that was being tested was that there is a correlation between bad episodes in mental health patients and the full moon. The result was a definite failure to reject the null (that there is no correlation). The business about a correlation with just schizophrenics, I think, was a post hoc hypothesis.

I recall a story someone related upon visiting the Edgar Cayce Museum (or House, or whatever it's called). They conducted a brief test of e.s.p. with the visitors. The results made a pretty normal curve (just what you'd expect if the null hypothesis were true). However, the "docents" claimed that people who scored higher than the mean had evidence of e.s.p. This is simply a matter of focussing on the hits and ignoring the misses--a.k.a. confirmation bias.

Even so, the conclusion offered in the study in the OP only says that the matter deserves further study. Frankly, I don't think it does, but I would say further study to determine whether there is indeed a correlation should come before any attempts to explain such a correlation (other than the bias explanation, which explains why someone would think there's a correlation when in fact there isn't rather than why there is a correlation as some folks here have been trying to provide).

[Skeptic Ginger]

....

A full moon night is different than a non-full moon night. There is more light, more people are usually running around later, etc.....Before hypothesizing why such phenomena occurs, I think it is worth confirming the results of the OP cited study (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10820695) are actually valid.


There are always aberrant study results. We shouldn't assume every study result is valid.

A meta-analysis of lunar-lunacy research (http://psycnet.apa.org/index.cfm?fa=search.displayRecord&uid=1985-19152-001)Conducted a meta-analysis of 37 published and unpublished studies to examine relations between phases of the moon; type of lunar cycle; sex; publication practices; geographical features (latitude, population density); and several types of lunacy, including mental hospital admissions, psychiatric disturbances, crisis calls, homicides, and other criminal offenses. Results of effect-size estimates show that phases of the moon accounted for no more than 1% of the variance in activities usually termed lunacy. Alleged relations between phases of the moon and behavior can be traced to inappropriate analyses, a failure to take other (e.g., weekly) cycles into account, and a willingness to accept any departure from chance as evidence of a lunar effect. (3½ p ref) (PsycINFO Database Record (c) 2008 APA, all rights reserved)

[Skeptic Ginger]

Schizophrenics account for a fair number of ED psych visits due to the nature of the illness.

No effect of lunar cycle on psychiatric admissions or emergency evaluations. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17256692?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_Discovery_RA&linkpos=2&log$=relatedarticles&logdbfrom=pubmed)It is a popularly held belief that psychiatric behavior worsens during a full moon. Research in this area has yielded mixed results. Records from Naval Medical Center San Diego for 1993-2001 were examined to see whether there were higher rates of psychiatric admission associated with particular phases of the moon. Records from 8,473 admissions revealed that there were no more admission on days with a full moon, a new moon, any quarter of the moon, a waxing moon, or a waning moon. This held true for psychiatric patients as a whole, as well as for individuals with particular diagnoses, such as those with a mood disorder or psychotic disorder. Records from 1,909 emergency psychiatric evaluations that occurred between 2002 and 2003 were also examined to see whether a higher percentage of patients might present, but not require hospitalization, during a particular phase of the moon. Once again, no significant effect was found. In summary, lunar phase was not associated in any significant way with psychiatric admissions or emergency presentation.

Compare this to the OP citation where n was only 56.

[JoeTheJuggler]

Before hypothesizing why such phenomena occurs, I think it is worth confirming the results of the OP cited study (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10820695) are actually valid.

I wish I'd said that! ;)

[quarky]

Again, I don't think even this explanation is necessary, since there's very little evidence that there is something that needs explaining.

Also, this explanation would suggest that all sorts of other problems would correlate to the full moon, but they don't.

I think the study mentioned in the OP (and I think the two are really the same one--or at least they're using the same dataset), was more of a fishing trip. They were looking for ANY correlations with the full moon. It's a different story if you start out with a clear hypothesis (that psychotic episodes in schizophrenics are more likely to occur during the full moon).

Also, the study linked episodes to the date of full moons, and not to the time of day (or whether the person was outside at the time). At least some of these episodes probably occurred in the day time, so the "extra light" explanation doesn't wash. Further, the study didn't take weather into account. On a cloud-covered night, the full moon does not provide additional light. Also, we do have artificial light --even outdoors--so there's no obstacle to staying up late and getting into trouble regardless of the phase of the moon.

Again, first establish if there's a phenomenon in need of explanation before trying to come up with an explanation.

I yield the point.
What about high and low tides?

[JoeTheJuggler]

I yield the point.
What about high and low tides?

What about them? Are you saying there might be a correlation between tides and worsening of symptoms in the mentally ill? If so, do you have any evidence?

[Skeptic Ginger]

I wish I'd said that! ;)Was I redundant? Sorry. :o I usually answer posts in order and don't always read ahead.

It never hurts to reinforce these messages. :)

[Monketey Ghost]

Hospital where I work, sheesh, you can't tell anyone the full moon has no effect. They even hedge it by a day or two on either side and do it with a straight face.

My mom, a retired ER nurse, who might know better, swears by it.

What I've noticed in my informal study of this is what seems to be a gender preference: more women than men tend to believe the moon can cause changes i.e. filling up the ER with crazy antics.

[quarky]

What about them? Are you saying there might be a correlation between tides and worsening of symptoms in the mentally ill? If so, do you have any evidence?

No, I'm seeing the tides as being more legit than the fullness of the moon, as per having an effect on people.

Like Magnifico, I encountered this prejudice (?) about the full moon's effects, working in a hospital emergency room. i doubt it ever had scientific scrutiny applied, but the expectation for trouble during full moon's was rampant.

[rjh01]

There is an effect on people's brain because their is a difference in gravity from the moon between one end of the brain to the other. However this is so small as to make no difference. Other forces on the brain are much stronger, like moving. Such things only work on large scales (size of planets) or near black holes.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Hospital where I work, sheesh, you can't tell anyone the full moon has no effect. They even hedge it by a day or two on either side and do it with a straight face.

My mom, a retired ER nurse, who might know better, swears by it.

What I've noticed in my informal study of this is what seems to be a gender preference: more women than men tend to believe the moon can cause changes i.e. filling up the ER with crazy antics.You don't think the fact there just happens to be a preponderance of female nurses might be screwing up your sample? :(


Makes me proud... My first year as a nurse I worked in a 35 bed hospital in a small town. One night we had 2 births and a death (a high number for us) and people were talking about the fact it was a full Moon. So the next day I took the record of all the births for the previous year (about 300) and plotted them out by Moon phases. I just did it to see, I didn't really know the truth at that time. There was no pattern.

I showed everyone my chart.

I think I'm a skeptic by birth. :D

[Skeptic Ginger]

No, I'm seeing the tides as being more legit than the fullness of the moon, as per having an effect on people.

Like Magnifico, I encountered this prejudice (?) about the full moon's effects, working in a hospital emergency room. i doubt it ever had scientific scrutiny applied, but the expectation for trouble during full moon's was rampant.ED studies have been done. No full Moon effects have been confirmed. There are links in some of the posts above.

What do you mean you see the tides as more legit?????

[Skeptic Ginger]

There is an effect on people's brain because their is a difference in gravity from the moon between one end of the brain to the other. However this is so small as to make no difference. Other forces on the brain are much stronger, like moving. Such things only work on large scales (size of planets) or near black holes.And I think the gravitational pull from a nearby skyscraper or mountain would be greater on the brain than the pull of a distant planet.

[quarky]

ED studies have been done. No full Moon effects have been confirmed. There are links in some of the posts above.

What do you mean you see the tides as more legit?????

That was poor wording on my part. I meant that a high or low tide has real world effects, such as "Do I go out in the boat, or not" or "Is it a good time to look for oysters, or not?" As compared to how much sunlight is being reflected by the moon.

[JoeTheJuggler]

No, I'm seeing the tides as being more legit than the fullness of the moon, as per having an effect on people.
Isn't that what I asked? I don't see how it's more legit to claim that tides affect people. Any evidence?

You're not trying to say that the study in the OP is better explained by tides, are you? The study didn't look at a correlation with tides. (You do know that both high and low tides happen at full moons, don't you?)

[JoeTheJuggler]

That was poor wording on my part. I meant that a high or low tide has real world effects, such as "Do I go out in the boat, or not" or "Is it a good time to look for oysters, or not?" As compared to how much sunlight is being reflected by the moon.

Um. . . but again, both high tides and low tides can happen during a full moon, so I'm not sure what you're saying.

Also, obviously these "effects" of high and low tide don't affect people who don't live along a coast.

[JoeTheJuggler]

And I think the gravitational pull from a nearby skyscraper or mountain would be greater on the brain than the pull of a distant planet.

There was a thread some time ago where we tried to calculate whether the obstetrician might exert a greater gravitational pull on a infant at birth than all the astrological "planets" combined.

IIRC, if we assumed that all the planets' effects just sum up (as if they were all in one direction from the baby) the planets' effect was greater. Since even all the planets farther from the Sun than the Earth rarely all line up (and usually one or more of the massive planets will be opposite the others wrt to the Earth), it's ordinarily a pretty near thing.

[quarky]

The moon affects the tides, and it reflects some sunlight at night, at certain times. This has a small effect on people's activities, in a nuts and bolts way...especially on the coasts.
Confirmation bias amongst people that mythologize the moon, and its wooish powers, might explain some of the schizophrenic spike reported in the o.p. study. Some people watch the calender, and plan things around the moon phases. Horror movies, and such.

If you only go fishing when the moon is 'right', you will only catch fish then, and the bias is confirmed.

Moonlight keeps some people from sleeping well. They say it wakes them.

[oldhat]

Both us RealPaladin's do agree.

Schizophrenia =/= multiple personalities

[quarky]

Schizophrenia =/= multiple personalities

easy for you to say.

You aren't insane.

[Dancing David]

easy for you to say.

You aren't insane.


Nope, schizophrenia is not multiple personalities, despite Fight Club and other media representations.

I know you are being pithy. :) :D

And Yes I am Insane, Certifiably So and on Treatment.

[HansMustermann]

Schizophrenia =/= multiple personalities

I thought so too, but my invisible cat says that's just semantics ;)

[Dancing David]

Your invisible cat says multiple personalities do not exist.

[quarky]

Nope, schizophrenia is not multiple personalities, despite Fight Club and other media representations.

I know you are being pithy. :) :D

And Yes I am Insane, Certifiably So and on Treatment.

You don't strike me as insane.
Do you foam at the mouth, when we aren't looking?

Not that I'm dissapointed, but if this was a freak show, and I'd paid money to get in, I'd expect the insane to do some tricks. Can you act insane?

(I can, but its just an act...no meds prescribed, though some occasionly get through.)

[shawmutt]

The man on the moon watches me more when it's full.

My brother's a schizo, and there's no rhyme or reason to his sporadic episodes--that doesn't stop my mother from insisting it's all the moon's fault.

[dudalb]

Now if you name is Larry Talbot you might have a problem come full moon.....:D

[Old Bob]

Has any one considered this, the full moon is in the flux of the earth at that time. The earth like all planets has a tail of flux facing away from the sun and at full moon the moon passes through it. The light reflected back is a differant frequency and even looks more silver and that is what affects some. There is a lot more to learn about our moon it is indeed a strange satelite. Google "Who built the Moon" (interesting.)

[shawmutt]

Has any one considered this, the full moon is in the flux of the earth at that time. The earth like all planets has a tail of flux facing away from the sun and at full moon the moon passes through it. The light reflected back is a differant frequency and even looks more silver and that is what affects some. There is a lot more to learn about our moon it is indeed a strange satelite. Google "Who built the Moon" (interesting.)

I'm figuratively speechless.

[Seanette]

Some women whose menstrual cycles coincide with the lunar cycle might get a bit less emotionally stable at particular points (my mother being an example). Only halfway rational correlation I can think of.

[Smackety]

I have heard not that there is an increase in crazy people during a full moon, rather that there is an increase in how crazy they are. I have not witnessed this first hand however; my clients tend to be at their most crazy when there is a spike in illicit drug availability. Perhaps there are more raves on nights with a full moon?

[Dancing David]

Not all insane people have schizophrenia.

I can juggle(poorly), become irritable and have early morning waking, occasional compulsions.

[Dancing David]

I have heard not that there is an increase in crazy people during a full moon, rather that there is an increase in how crazy they are. I have not witnessed this first hand however; my clients tend to be at their most crazy when there is a spike in illicit drug availability. Perhaps there are more raves on nights with a full moon?


Nothing like a little cocaine, although in the ED I used to see a lot of people who had 'the three': cocaine, mj and alcohol.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Some women whose menstrual cycles coincide with the lunar cycle might get a bit less emotionally stable at particular points (my mother being an example). Only halfway rational correlation I can think of.Has any one considered this, the full moon is in the flux of the earth at that time. The earth like all planets has a tail of flux facing away from the sun and at full moon the moon passes through it. The light reflected back is a differant frequency and even looks more silver and that is what affects some. There is a lot more to learn about our moon it is indeed a strange satelite. Google "Who built the Moon" (interesting.)

You are both looking to explain something the data shows is not there.

[Skeptic Ginger]

I have heard not that there is an increase in crazy people during a full moon, rather that there is an increase in how crazy they are. I have not witnessed this first hand however; my clients tend to be at their most crazy when there is a spike in illicit drug availability. Perhaps there are more raves on nights with a full moon?And for alcoholics, there's a spike in ED visits every 1st and 15th of the month when welfare checks are issued.

[Dr. Tobias Fünke]

Older nurses used to talk about this. I haven't heard it in years, never really believed it from the beginning.

[Seanette]

You are both looking to explain something the data shows is not there.
Sorry, but I am not going to deny or wish away my own direct personal observation that doesn't happen to agree with your favorite theoretical statistical labwork.

I personally experienced my mother's existing psychological issues becoming rather worse in sync with her menstrual cycle, which did coincide with the lunar cycle. If you weren't there, you don't get to tell me it didn't happen and force me to deny what I lived through.

[shawmutt]

Sorry, but I am not going to deny or wish away my own direct personal observation that doesn't happen to agree with your favorite theoretical statistical labwork.

I personally experienced my mother's existing psychological issues becoming rather worse in sync with her menstrual cycle, which did coincide with the lunar cycle. If you weren't there, you don't get to tell me it didn't happen and force me to deny what I lived through.

My anecdote is better than...?

[Seanette]

I never tried to claim my DIRECT PERSONAL EXPERIENCE applied universally. Statistical theory does not account for the entirety of reality, and so-called "critical thinkers" who dogmatically claim that real, observed events did not happen unless their statistical models predict same are guilty of sloppy thinking at best, and a religious dogma at "worst".

[shawmutt]

I never tried to claim my DIRECT PERSONAL EXPERIENCE applied universally.

Then what are you trying to claim? It seems you are offering your anecdote as proof for the OP--if not, why post it at all?

[Seanette]

I offered a top-of-the-head guess that MIGHT account for a LITTLE of what someone might have thought they observed.

So sorry you can't read English well enough to distinguish general from specific.

[shawmutt]

I offered a top-of-the-head guess that MIGHT account for a LITTLE of what someone might have thought they observed.

So sorry you can't read English well enough to distinguish general from specific.

Round 'em up, you keyboard cowboy you. It sounds more like you have a need to be anonymously belligerent.