Is Any Of This *Actually* True?

[INRM]

I know this is Alex Jones, but is it true that any of what he said is true?
URL: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_EFta6pbnqs
URL: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JoGOa3bZ7V8

- Marines used at Checkpoints and used in law-enforcement roles (so as to condition the public to get used to and accept)
- Foreign military being involved in such efforts
- Military to engage in "counter propaganda" efforts against so-called conspiracy theorists (whether accurate or not)
- Fake warrants used to draw blood for DNA collection purposes
- Every person 36 years of age and under's blood taken, DNA stored
- Government developing race-specific bioweapons

Alex Jones is often unreliable, and such, but I wouldn't be surprised if occasionally even he gets something right. I just want a level-headed examination into what has been stated...

It is definitely something to be completely ignored without even basic scrutiny.


INRM

[Arus808]

all false

[INRM]

Arus808,

Did you even watch the video?

[Arus808]

dont need to:

1) its by Alex Jones - a professional liar and someone prone to exaggeration. Unsecured Coin's and the RFID chip fiasco is one reason not to believe anything AJ says
2) the list of claims - none of that has ever happened.

[Ohnoes]

I don't have my headphones with me so I'll have to take a pass on the videos, but I can pretty much tell you that if "Government developing race-specific bioweapons" was said in any of those two videos than it's false and very stupid.

I mean..We can't find cures to certain diseases but we can create biological weapons that kill certain races? AJ is a special guy....:hypnotize

[Checkmite]

I've watched about ten minutes of this video so far, and here's what I've seen: Some video of national guard training drills, and a whole lot of claims with no backup. Contrary to what Alex Jones says, the CHP website contains no press releases regarding "domestic militarization coming to San Bernardino County", or any other county for that matter. Neither does any of the video footage show National Guard troops "dragging people out of cars and taking blood". Interestingly, some drill footage taken at night was alleged by Jones to have been interrupted by national guard troops confronting "our cameraman" and demanding that he stop filming; this incident as described is so spectacular that obviously Jones needs to protect our brains by not showing any actual footage of said soldiers approaching a camera and demanding that it be shut off.

Judging by how slow the timer is moving on this video, the rest of these things must positively take hours to watch completely. Do I really have to watch the whole thing, or are ten solid minutes of exaggeration, hyperbole, and just plain invention enough for now?

[dudalb]

How can you tell when Alex Jones is lying?

His lips move.....

[INRM]

Well, there is an old adage that every good lie has a kernel of truth to it.

Even though some of the stuff he says appears far fetched, I'm wondering if the whole thing is

[sleeplessdwarf]

I won't bother watching. Even if 10% of it is true, it would not be in the sense that he is spouting it. I will admit that I was much still in the truther movement back when Ivan hit, and when the Guardsmen were wearing their weapons as they passed out MRIs and ice, I did get very worried. I mean I could understand in New Orleans, but here in a town of 6k folks where the worse crime is usually a junky trying to rob for a fix? At the time it did not dawn on me to use common sense and understand that orders go out through the entire force, not just were there are more bad guys. I am completely free of the brainwashing that I went through for years, but I see no point in watching something I know will be 99.9% BS. Only when I am drunk and looking for a laugh will I bother.

[Agatha]

This is the same Alex Jones who asserted (or someone else did on his show, I'm not sure) that it is illegal in the UK to wear a crucifix? [ http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=4787120&postcount=823 ]

[Malkuth]

I know this is Alex Jones, but is it true that any of what he said is true?
URL: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_EFta6pbnqs
URL: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JoGOa3bZ7V8

- Marines used at Checkpoints and used in law-enforcement roles (so as to condition the public to get used to and accept)
- Foreign military being involved in such efforts
- Military to engage in "counter propaganda" efforts against so-called conspiracy theorists (whether accurate or not)
- Fake warrants used to draw blood for DNA collection purposes
- Every person 36 years of age and under's blood taken, DNA stored
- Government developing race-specific bioweapons

Alex Jones is often unreliable, and such, but I wouldn't be surprised if occasionally even he gets something right. I just want a level-headed examination into what has been stated...

It is definitely "NOT"(my addition) something to be completely ignored without even basic scrutiny.


INRM

I didn't watch the vids yet, but to your bullet points, there have been several instances of the military being involved in local law enforcement in the last few years, not just in the US. I personally haven't heard anything about foreign troops in the US.

As far as the counter propaganda is concerned, look no further than the MIAC report. Apparently it's from the police, not the military (there are other ideas on it's origin), but it certainly fits the description or propaganda against conspiracy theorists and demonizing the militia. Certain people will say "OH THATS BEEN DEBUNKED! PWNED! HAHA!!" But it's out there, and it's what it is.

As you say, it's certainly NOT something to be dismissed out of hand without scrutiny, which many people on this site and many others would have you do. Just make fun of it and pretend it doesn't exist, they'll say.

Don't stop asking questions, and don't let anyone persuade you to do so. Don't just ask questions here either, you will find naught but derision and distraction.



queue the jackals

[JohnG]

Well, there is an old adage that every good lie has a kernel of truth to it.


I've never heard of that particular adage, but the OP calls to mind something else known to contain kernels.

[JimBenArm]

As ex-military with a security clearance, you can rest assured it's all true. Every last word of it. Alex Jones is the official news source for the US Military and its super-secret nefarious plans.

[defaultdotxbe]

Well, there is an old adage that every good lie has a kernel of truth to it.

Even though some of the stuff he says appears far fetched, I'm wondering if the whole thing is
well, yes there is a kernel of truth to much of what jones says, but it stops at a kernel

- Marines used at Checkpoints and used in law-enforcement roles (so as to condition the public to get used to and accept)
the military is often used in a law enforcement capacity in other countries such as iraq and afghanistan, also the national guard is often used to maintain order during a natural disaster in the US, therefore it logically follows they would train for such things, there is nothing sinister about it

- Foreign military being involved in such efforts
foreign military is often involved in US exercises either as a join operation or IIRC there is also a sort of exchange program in which foriegn soldiers serve with american units

- Military to engage in "counter propaganda" efforts against so-called conspiracy theorists (whether accurate or not)
if someone was telling people that you (the military) are trying to hurt them when you arent wouldnt you want to set the record straight? whether you think the military is here to help or hurt this one is just common sense

- Every person 36 years of age and under's blood taken, DNA stored
parents are encouraged to put their childs DNA on file to aid in finding missing children, this is no different than the fingerprinting programs that have been around since i was a kid, in fact many of the same organizations now offer DNA kits as well as fingerprint kits

http://pollyklaasaction.org/campaign/enewsletter_child_safety_kit

[Checkmite]

I've never heard of that particular adage, but the OP calls to mind something else known to contain kernels.

Microsoft Windows?

[Checkmite]

As far as the counter propaganda is concerned, look no further than the MIAC report. Apparently it's from the police, not the military (there are other ideas on it's origin), but it certainly fits the description or propaganda against conspiracy theorists and demonizing the militia. Certain people will say "OH THATS BEEN DEBUNKED! PWNED! HAHA!!" But it's out there, and it's what it is.

I won't deny that the national guard and state police agencies have taken a good, hard look at self-styled "militia groups"; in fact, I'll say that they have a good reason to, being that the loudest of these groups makes no bones about proclaiming far and wide that they fully expect to be engaged in gunplay with the national guard and state police agencies at some point in the ever-near future. Have you listened to people like Jones, et al? They're not saying they're ready to take up arms "in case" the worst happens. They're convinced the worst is already happening and that it's undeniably just a matter of time before they'll get to be forced to open fire.

These groups have their own hysteric paranoia, and weapons, and fairly comprehensive training to go along with it. Obviously the national guard can't, and the state police agencies won't, be "cracking down" on these groups - and that's the way it should be. But to insist law enforcement agencies should officially ignore the existence of these groups that are so loudly threatening them is unreasonable.

[theprestige]

INRM, of course it's all true! The question you should really be asking is, "is there any evidence?"

And the answer to that is "not that we know of".

[timhau]

Well, there is an old adage that every good lie has a kernel of truth to it.


In that case, Jones's lies aren't good.

[Checkmite]

You know what this reminds me of? Remember that conspiracy that was floating around a while back, saying that the orientation of the DOT stickers on the backs of clusters of road signs were a secret military code, so that when the foreign UN troops came to take over, they'd know driving directions to FEMA camps, hospitals, and schools? Evidently, the stickers had to be put on the backs of the signs because the UN troops would all be driving on the wrong side of the road and would be unable to read the fronts of the signs.

I think I remember seeing a particular website that seemed to realize this silly problem, and claimed that the stickers were meant to be read by UN drivers who were looking in their rear view mirrors instead of paying attention to the road while driving on the proper side of the road. The reflective stickers will be illuminated by special lights mounted on the backs of the UN vehicles. I guess that when the UN driver looks in his rearview mirror and sees a sticker-arrangement telling him that the hospital death camp is "this way", he has to turn around and backtrack to the proper turn-off.

[theprestige]

Well, there is an old adage that every good lie has a kernel of truth to it.
If there's a kernel of truth, why bother with the lies? Why not just tell the truth, and present the evidence?

But of course your version of the adage is wrong. A better way to put it is, "every good lie has a kernel of believability".

What's the purpose of telling a lie with a believable kernel?

In my experience, the only reason such a lie is ever told is to manipulate the audience. The liar hooks them with some little tidbit that they'll find believable, and then uses it to trick them into believing all the lies they pile on top of it.

Jones isn't trying to reveal kernels of truth. He's trying to trick you into swallowing a pile of lies.

[INRM]

Default Dot XBE,

the military is often used in a law enforcement capacity in other countries such as iraq and afghanistan

Yes, but the United States has rules about the military being used in a law-enforcement strategy. Part of it extends back to the civil war, part of it extends back even to our Founding Fathers.

A large military can be used as a very powerful tool of oppression...


ThePrestige,

If there's a kernel of truth, why bother with the lies? Why not just tell the truth, and present the evidence?

Because if you were a liar you wouldn't want your lie to be immediately disbelieved, so you tell a great deal of truth, weave it in with a lot of half-truths and whole lies and it becomes very hard to determine what things you lied about.

But of course your version of the adage is wrong. A better way to put it is, "every good lie has a kernel of believability".

Well that would be a better way to put it, regardless though, many of the best lies have various pieces of truth in them.

What's the purpose of telling a lie with a believable kernel?

As I said, if you were going to tell a lie, you'd want people to believe it, so you weave in pieces of truth, along with half-truths and whole lies into the mix so it is hard to tell which parts are true and which parts are not. It is very useful as it can then be used to argue the whole thing is true even though only parts of it are.

In my experience, the only reason such a lie is ever told is to manipulate the audience. The liar hooks them with some little tidbit that they'll find believable, and then uses it to trick them into believing all the lies they pile on top of it.

Which is kind of just what I said...

Jones isn't trying to reveal kernels of truth. He's trying to trick you into swallowing a pile of lies.

Yeah, but still while I believe most of what he's saying is crap, I want to find out if there are any kernels of truth to this.


INRM

[theprestige]

Yeah, but still while I believe most of what he's saying is crap, I want to find out if there are any kernels of truth to this.
There aren't.

My recommendation: review Jones's claims, and make a note of those parts you find most believable. Then ask yourself why you believe those parts, and if you've ever seen any evidence specifically for those particular things. Then go down to the library and research those particular things. Finally, never pay attention to anything Jones says again.

[Cl1mh4224rd]

Well, there is an old adage that every good lie has a kernel of truth to it.


You're assuming that Alex Jones tells good lies.

I've never heard of that particular adage, but the OP calls to mind something else known to contain kernels.


Computer operating systems? :confused:

[Brainster]

I've probably spent as much time as anybody here listening to Alex. I will say (as others have noted) that there's generally a kernel of truth in what he says. Where he goes off the rails is in the interpretation he puts on it. Two examples:

About a year and a half ago I was listening to Alex and he was in his depressive state (Alex strikes me as clearly bipolar), and he was griping about how people don't believe him. He talked about how he met somebody who majored in bio-chemistry who loved his show, but had to contradict him on the spider-goats, which the bio-chem major insisted did not exist. Alex must have been in a rare mood that day because he didn't engage his skeptic, instead he just said, yeah, whatever. At this point (in the radio show) Alex starts screaming about how the spider-goats are real! As it happened I was riding my bicycle at the time, listening to him on my MP3 player, and I'm laughing hysterically, thinking what a great post this will make.

But. I remembered that I had heard some oddball story about spiders and goats (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/canada/1381960/Spider-goats-start-work-on-wonder-web.html) several years ago and so I googled it.

A HERD of goats containing spider genes is about to be milked for the ingredients of spider silk to mass-produce one of nature's most sought-after materials.

Scientists have for the first time spun synthetic spider silk fibres with properties approaching the real thing, paving the way for their use in artificial tendons, medical sutures, biodegradable fishing lines, soft body armour and a host of other applications.

So the spider-goats are real. But that's not all that controversial. What Jones then extrapolates to is that the scientists are busy making chimeras; half-humans, half cows (or something). Of course, anybody with half a brain would recognize that there are some awesome ethical problems with any such project, and then President Bush mentioned something about banning human-animal hybrids (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/01/31/AR2006013101468.html) in one of his State of the Union Addresses (which caused considerable hilarity among the denizens of the left).

Tonight I ask you to pass legislation to prohibit the most egregious abuses of medical research: human cloning in all its forms; creating or implanting embryos for experiments; creating human-animal hybrids; and buying, selling or patenting human embryos.

So it's just a case of where Bush and Alex Jones agree that it's wrong (as I would suspect most of us do). The difference is that Alex thinks its going on as we speak.

Second example: One of Alex's regular listeners calls in sometime in late November 2007 with a scoop. The Marines have a Hum-Vee parked outside Toys R Us. It's all part of the plot to get us used to seeing military on the streets! Hilarity piles on hilarity as the listener gets one of the Marines on the phone with the Profit of Doom. Why are the military on our streets (actually in the parking lot of Toys R Us)?

They are collecting for Toys for Tots. No kidding. Alex rails for a bit and the Marine seems a bit startled, but he sticks to his cover story about how they just want to help needy children.

[JimBenArm]

The military helping needy children? Are they going soft? We're supposed to crush them cruelly under the Jackboots of Oppression! What are they teaching them these days?

[JohnG]

I've never heard of that particular adage, but the OP calls to mind something else known to contain kernels.

Microsoft Windows?

Computer operating systems? :confused:


Sorry, it's considered bad form to explain a joke...even if it isn't very funny:p

[Arus808]

Second example: One of Alex's regular listeners calls in sometime in late November 2007 with a scoop. The Marines have a Hum-Vee parked outside Toys R Us.

as soon as I read these two sentences, the first thing came to mind is Toys for Tots. And AJ blew it out of proportion?

Marines have been helping out since the formation of TFT in 1947.

[defaultdotxbe]

Sorry, it's considered bad form to explain a joke...even if it isn't very funny:p
dont worry, i get the joke, and i was even considering making a similar one in my post ;)

[patchbunny]

You know what this reminds me of? Remember that conspiracy that was floating around a while back, saying that the orientation of the DOT stickers on the backs of clusters of road signs were a secret military code, so that when the foreign UN troops came to take over, they'd know driving directions to FEMA camps, hospitals, and schools? Evidently, the stickers had to be put on the backs of the signs because the UN troops would all be driving on the wrong side of the road and would be unable to read the fronts of the signs.

I think I remember seeing a particular website that seemed to realize this silly problem, and claimed that the stickers were meant to be read by UN drivers who were looking in their rear view mirrors instead of paying attention to the road while driving on the proper side of the road. The reflective stickers will be illuminated by special lights mounted on the backs of the UN vehicles. I guess that when the UN driver looks in his rearview mirror and sees a sticker-arrangement telling him that the hospital death camp is "this way", he has to turn around and backtrack to the proper turn-off.

Wasn't that bit of nonsense on his part identified as a sign of schizophrenia?

[Travis]

I know this is Alex Jones, but is it true that any of what he said is true?
URL: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_EFta6pbnqs
URL: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JoGOa3bZ7V8

Well, the video isn't loading for me so I will respond to the points you raise.

- Marines used at Checkpoints and used in law-enforcement roles (so as to condition the public to get used to and accept)

Marines can theoretically man a checkpoint without it being a law enforcement situation but supposing that it is in such a role that still doesn't mean it can't happen at the invitation of the proper authorities and as such it is prudent to train for such an eventuality. It's important to know the military has to train for all the things they may, under certain circumstances, be called to do and does not in any way mean they are actively planning to. They also train to respond to earthquakes and doing so does not mean they are planning to somehow cause an earthquake somewhere.

- Foreign military being involved in such efforts

Involvement of foreign military specialists in training is simply good diplomacy as it helps integrate allies.

- Military to engage in "counter propaganda" efforts against so-called conspiracy theorists (whether accurate or not)

"Counter propaganda" in this sense would mean disseminating the truth to counter the lunatic assertions of some vocal wackos. Nothing wrong with that.

- Fake warrants used to draw blood for DNA collection purposes

What fake warrants and to what end? Unless you think that awful Michael Bay movie The Island was a documentary how is the taking of DNA sinister?

- Every person 36 years of age and under's blood taken, DNA stored

Why 36? Again why is DNA sampling evil?

- Government developing race-specific bioweapons

Impossible. Genetic variation among differing ethnic groups is too negligible to allow for the creation of a viable "race specific" pathogenic weapon.

Alex Jones is often unreliable, and such, but I wouldn't be surprised if occasionally even he gets something right.

He correctly deduced that there is a military. I will concede that to him.:D

[SkepticGuy]

Marines used at Checkpoints and used in law-enforcement roles (so as to condition the public to get used to and accept)
Alex is apparently confusing National Guard with Marines.


Foreign military being involved in such efforts
No corroborating material/facts known.


Military to engage in "counter propaganda" efforts against so-called conspiracy theorists (whether accurate or not)
D.I.A. has been discovered doing this.


Fake warrants used to draw blood for DNA collection purposes
No corroboration beyond Alex's stories.


Every person 36 years of age and under's blood taken, DNA stored
No corroboration beyond Alex's stories.


Government developing race-specific bioweapons
Conjecture and semi-informed speculation has been rampant on this issue for over a decade... but there have been no corroborative facts discovered (as far as I know).

[defaultdotxbe]

Default Dot XBE,



Yes, but the United States has rules about the military being used in a law-enforcement strategy. Part of it extends back to the civil war, part of it extends back even to our Founding Fathers.
of course, posse commitatus, but my point is the military engages in law enforcement legally overseas, which gives them a perfectly valid excuse to train for it

jones is making a very large logical leap from training exercises to martial law

[Brainster]

You know what this reminds me of? Remember that conspiracy that was floating around a while back, saying that the orientation of the DOT stickers on the backs of clusters of road signs were a secret military code, so that when the foreign UN troops came to take over, they'd know driving directions to FEMA camps, hospitals, and schools?

Or how the dots on your mailbox determine whether they kill you immediately, take you to a FEMA camp, or leave you around to be one of the slaves?

[JoeyDonuts]

D.I.A. has been discovered doing this.

Source?

[wackyvorlon]

Or how the dots on your mailbox determine whether they kill you immediately, take you to a FEMA camp, or leave you around to be one of the slaves?

Have these people no databases? Seriously, this fellow supposes that they are creating an enormous index of DNA samples tied to individuals. Why wouldn't they store that info in the same database? Further, the stickers on road signs - have they no maps? Good grief, they could go to Google Earth and get satellite photos of this stuff...

The human propensity for having internally contradictory beliefs never ceases to amaze me.

[Horatius]

The military helping needy children? Are they going soft? We're supposed to crush them cruelly under the Jackboots of Oppression! What are they teaching them these days?


Well, jackboots, jack in the box....it's an easy mistake to make.

[JimBenArm]

Well, jackboots, jack in the box....it's an easy mistake to make.
Jack in the Box? What, are they going to be buying them Jumbo Jacks with fries next?

I tell you, it's just not the same as in my day. Dang hippies took over everything!

[SkepticGuy]

It's unlikely that you'd believe it, but, here it is...

Source?
The source is "us" (abovetopsecret.com) and direct experience with the program.

Agent Davenport of the D.I.A. was the lead on a program called "Juniper Six" that utilized a defense IT contractor to spread absurd information among "conspiracy" sites/boards for the purpose of humiliation if the data was believed, or potential federal charges if the data was acted upon (using some of the Juniper Six info would have made it possible to locate and download some unimportant but classified information that would have been a crime to distribute).

However, the absurdity and ruse was eventually obvious. Our members began revealing what appeared to be an odd intelligence gaff and/or someone on the "inside" playing games, which then led to calls directly from Agent Davenport. He was insisting that we remove the information, we were reluctant until he admitted it was a "test" to catalog the responses of various sites... a government agency purposefully hoaxing conspiracy sites. The IT contractor doing the actual work who was going by the pseudonym of "HAWK" later admitted it was indeed a trap to discredit or provide opportunity to press charges. We removed the info from public view, but it remains in a private, members-only forum.

A bit of public info remains here (http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread125254/pg1)

[JimBenArm]

The saddest part is that was probably the sanest thing ever posted at ATS, which is what probably gave it away...

[SkepticGuy]

The saddest part is that was probably the sanest thing ever posted at ATS...

This is pretty "sane:"
FBI Fears Chinese Hackers Have Back Door Into US Government & Military (http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread350381/pg1)
So sane that it led to a front-page NYT story, and was directly addressed by the FBI in a press release.

This is sober also...
Exposing The Fraud of the "No Plane Theory" -- Conspiracy Fakery (http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread458194/pg1)

Sane...
Untersberg - The Mystery Mountain (http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread384938/pg1)

I could go on... uninformed generalizations are unbecoming of professed skeptics. ;)

[JimBenArm]

This is pretty "sane:"
FBI Fears Chinese Hackers Have Back Door Into US Government & Military (http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread350381/pg1)
So sane that it led to a front-page NYT story, and was directly addressed by the FBI in a press release.

This is sober also...
Exposing The Fraud of the "No Plane Theory" -- Conspiracy Fakery (http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread458194/pg1)

Sane...
Untersberg - The Mystery Mountain (http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread384938/pg1)

I could go on... uninformed generalizations are unbecoming of professed skeptics. ;)
And thinking sarcasm is uninformed generalizations and that I'm a professed anything other than resident humorist is stupid. No wonder ATS has trouble discerning the real from fantasy. Not that there was ever any real question there. At least among those with actual working brain matter.

[JoeyDonuts]

It's unlikely that you'd believe it, but, here it is...

Come on. You yourself must have a chuckle at some of the unbridled quackery that walks through your door every day.

Not that you could comment on it even if you DID feel that way.

Needless to say, you aren't exactly the first stop for somebody who wants to get the "straight dope" on something.

Agent Davenport of the D.I.A. was the lead on a program called "Juniper Six" that utilized a defense IT contractor to spread absurd information among "conspiracy" sites/boards for the purpose of humiliation if the data was believed, or potential federal charges if the data was acted upon (using some of the Juniper Six info would have made it possible to locate and download some unimportant but classified information that would have been a crime to distribute).

The idea in and of itself is not that farfetched from a security standpoint. If classified information had gone missing, identifying the channels through which it had been disseminated would be of extreme value. However there are a few things about it that don't make sense to me.

1. Why are you naming a specific agent? And is this encounter based solely on the word of one of your posters? Did the agent contact the site admin directly?

2. Why the named operation? Even if some cracks in such a ruse had been developed it is highly unlikely that any government agency is going to say "oh darn - you've gotten this far, here's the whole story."

3. The kind of operation you are suggesting doesn't normally fall within the purview of the DIA. What you're suggesting is a law enforcement operation if anything. If classified information goes missing the FBI, with cooperation from other agencies, takes the lead on the investigation.

4. A contractor? Really? This does one of two things. It either holds the required separation that such a nefarious act would require from the 'thinkers' to the 'doers' - or it gives the person making the whole damn thing up some distance.

Overall, I didn't find anything particularly convincing that such an operation ever took place. It's obvious something happened, and discourse took place. I just can't see what convinced you so absolutely that it was an officially sanctioned DIA operation.

However, the absurdity and ruse was eventually obvious. Our members began revealing what appeared to be an odd intelligence gaff and/or someone on the "inside" playing games, which then led to calls directly from Agent Davenport.

Did you confirm the man's credentials? In situations like this, an actual agent of the US Government will do this kind of thing in person so he can physically show you his badge. A PHONECON renders that impossible. And I seriously doubt your caller ID showed DIA BOLLING AFB when he called.

He was insisting that we remove the information, we were reluctant until he admitted it was a "test" to catalog the responses of various sites... a government agency purposefully hoaxing conspiracy sites.

Once again...you just have his word to go on. It sounds like you gave him exactly the response he was looking for.

The IT contractor doing the actual work who was going by the pseudonym of "HAWK" later admitted it was indeed a trap to discredit or provide opportunity to press charges.

I'm assuming the two of them know one another. That would explain a thing or two.

We removed the info from public view, but it remains in a private, members-only forum.

This is a pretty big story if it's true. We're talking about an intelligence agency tasked with gathering and providing time-critical battlespace intelligence and resource development for war theater commanders suddenly turning their attentions to some wacky internet kiddos.

If this were true, that would mean they have greatly exceeded both their mandate and their mission. Did you make any attempt to go public with this or further verify it?

I worked with the intelligence community for six years...and I can tell you without additional information this whole thing just reeks of unbelievability. I think you got Gordan Freeman'd.

[JoeyDonuts]

Bump for gatekeeper of ATS.

Nothing? Hmm....telling.

[SkepticGuy]

Did the agent contact the site admin directly?
Yes.


Why the named operation?
It's unclear if "Juniper" denoted the name of the ruse, or the internal name of a program, or both.


The kind of operation you are suggesting doesn't normally fall within the purview of the DIA.
Agreed. However, thanks to the DIA mandate, it's one of the few agencies able to concoct and act upon a sting such as this.


4. A contractor? >snip< or it gives the person making the whole damn thing up some distance.
Well... since members and admin did indeed find themselves speaking with, and calling a published DIA number to speak to agents, we can be certain the DIA involvement was not "made up."


Did you confirm the man's credentials?
Yes.

And I seriously doubt your caller ID showed DIA BOLLING AFB when he called.
Our admin called the DIA switchboard, a published number, and was transfered to his extension, and the direct dial to his extension was the same area code and prefix as the DIA switchboard.



This is a pretty big story if it's true. We're talking about an intelligence agency tasked with gathering and providing time-critical battlespace intelligence and resource development for war theater commanders suddenly turning their attentions to some wacky internet kiddos.
I completely agree that it's highly irregular. However, back in 2004/5, "things" were a little more tense than they are now. I can believe that someone tasked with assessing domestic threats might take things this far, without the existance an established formal policy to pay attention to the kiddos.



I worked with the intelligence community for six years...and I can tell you without additional information this whole thing just reeks of unbelievability. I think you got Gordan Freeman'd.
We have friends in intelligence as well. Some well-placed. They confirmed the agent's credentials, his focus (at the time) on Internet threats, and that the DIA mandate could be interpreted to cover what was done.

One of our staffers had discovered similar stories at two other "conspiracy" sites, but it remains rumor (in our eyes), as it's unconfirmed.

[JoeyDonuts]

Well, that definitely sheds some light on it, and it sounds like you went through all the correct channels to confirm it. Sometimes it's easy to forget how the environment was back in 2004/2005 as far as leeway is concerned. To a certain extent, the intelligence agencies got a 'blank check' for operations.

Still, I have trouble accepting that this goes all the way to the top of DIA. Someone inside the Information Warfare directorate with at least department head or equivalent level oversight would have had to sign off on it - and not been particularly cognizant of its weight. As a former intelligence guy myself, I have a real big problem when operations extend past the credo of "In God We Trust, All Others We Monitor."

It doesn't take much to monitor a website such as yours for key words and phrases that would indicate a breach of classified information. It boggles me that personnel inside the DIA felt the need to insert information of their own, unless a "horse had already gotten out of the barn" and they needed to find out where it had gone. As far as I know, such a thing didn't happen during the time-frame indicated. Stolen classified information wouldn't be likely to show directly up on your site anyway, since that would run counter to the motivation of just about every spy we've ever caught.

I'd like to read more about it...and I am curious if the media was made aware of this, or at least a Congressman on the Intelligence Oversight Committee.

ETA: Also, I apologize if I seemed overly snarky. I'm trying to work on that.

[Thunder]

If its crazy, nuts, insane, irrational, scary, and paranoid...

..it MUST BE TRUE!!!!

:p