The sin

[Gaetan]

John 8 english standard version:

34Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you,(BF) everyone who commits sin is a slave[b] to sin. 35(BG) The slave does not remain in the house forever;(BH) the son remains forever.

There are two key words in this text and they are sin and liberty. If you commit a sin you have a debt towards the person you committed that sin. When you have a debt you have to reimburse that debt and your not free. If you have a debt towards a son of God, they is no problem, but if you have a debt towards the devil, you can be sure that you have to reimburse that dept untill the last penny. Karma and sin are similar.

Gaétan

[Pardalis]

What about interest?

And is there a flat rate for sin, or does it vary?

[KingMerv00]

There are two key words in this text and they are sin and liberty. If you commit a sin you have a debt towards the person you committed that sin. When you have a debt you have to reimburse that debt and your not free. If you have a debt towards a son of God, they is no problem, but if you have a debt towards the devil, you can be sure that you have to reimburse that dept untill the last penny. Karma and sin are similar.

Gaétan

If I steal a dollar from my grandmother's purse, how do I get into debt the devil or Jesus? It seems to me the only party affected is gran gran.

[kerikiwi]

There are two key words in this text and they are sin and liberty. If you commit a sin you have a debt towards the person you committed that sin. When you have a debt you have to reimburse that debt and your not free. If you have a debt towards a son of God, they is no problem, but if you have a debt towards the devil, you can be sure that you have to reimburse that dept untill the last penny. Karma and sin are similar.

Gaétan

All righty then...

[IMST]

There are two key words in this text and they are sin and liberty.

The word "liberty" does not appear in your quoted text. Am I supposed to be using anagrams?

[wuschel]

If you have a debt towards a son of God, they is no problem, but if you have a debt towards the devil, you can be sure that you have to reimburse that dept untill the last penny.
So the solution is to excessively borrow from above in order pay off the ones down underneath? I guess that's what they usually call a "Trickle Down" - economy!

[NoZed Avenger]

So the solution is to excessively borrow from above in order pay off the ones down underneath? I guess that's what they usually call a "Trickle Down" - economy!


Borrowing from Simon Peter to pay Paul.

[realpaladin]

God does not exist. The Devil does not exist. There is no sin.

[autumn1971]

There are two key words in this text and they are sin and liberty. If you commit a sin you have a debt towards the person you committed that sin. When you have a debt you have to reimburse that debt and your not free. If you have a debt towards a son of God, they is no problem, but if you have a debt towards the devil, you can be sure that you have to reimburse that dept untill the last penny. Karma and sin are similar.

Gaétan
Wow, that's not what the text says at all. Jesus was asked to clarify the meaning of "free" as he had just used it, so he trotted out a rather strained metaphor. Because a family member is of a house "forever", he has authority over the slave, who is temporarily of the household. Jesus actually seems to mean that only sin can free the slave to sin.
But then, the Bible is known for wildly contradictory ideas appearing within a few verses of each other.

[realpaladin]

What about interest?

And is there a flat rate for sin, or does it vary?

It is more like the Mafia... you know, the thing with 25% and a finger cut off every-day you don't pay...

Or a horses head in your bed. But that happens up here as well when I am too drunk to check what I am getting in to.

[six7s]

There are two key words in this text and they are sin and liberty. If you commit a sin you have a debt towards the person you committed that sin. When you have a debt you have to reimburse that debt and your not free. If you have a debt towards a son of God, they is no problem, but if you have a debt towards the devil, you can be sure that you have to reimburse that dept untill the last penny. Karma and sin are similar.

GaétanYou will forever owe me for the irretrievable 11 seconds that I wasted reading that

[Cavemonster]

God does not exist. The Devil does not exist. There is no sin.

I think it's reasonable to bridge the gap between the religious notion of sin as "Those things God doesn't want you to do" and the more secular notion of "Intentional actions that harm other humans"

We don't need a god to have a strong and meaningful notion of wrong behavior.

[HansMustermann]

I think it's reasonable to bridge the gap between the religious notion of sin as "Those things God doesn't want you to do" and the more secular notion of "Intentional actions that harm other humans"

We don't need a god to have a strong and meaningful notion of wrong behavior.

Well, I understand what you're saying, and I've argued before that moral behaviour has nothing to do with religion. But I think that in the context of a religious thread, it's not entirely unreasonable either to take "sin" only in its religious meaning.

[Cavemonster]

Well, I understand what you're saying, and I've argued before that moral behaviour has nothing to do with religion. But I think that in the context of a religious thread, it's not entirely unreasonable either to take "sin" only in its religious meaning.

Oh, I agree that the intent of the OP is both religious and batsh-t.

But I do think the notion of "sin" in a secular sense is a valid notion. And the notion that to knowingly mistreat your fellow humans makes you less free in some ways is woth exploring, even if it isn't exactly what the OP intended (I don't think there's anything of value to be explored from the OP's intent)

In all cultures, we have these concepts of guilt or shame, whether they have some genetic basis or are purely a cultural phenomenon. To act in ways that we know (or think) to be wrong changes us, changes our way of relating to others.

On the other hand, you have the view put forth in "Crimes and Misdemeanors" (excellent film) that just as there's no intent or intelligence or fate in the universe, there's no order or moral consequences in our own heads.

One of the main characters has his mistress murdered for purely selfish reasons. He's tortured over the decision, wrestles with the ethical implications, but goes through with it anyway.

At the end, time goes by, and one day he wakes up and it doesn't bother him any more.

[HansMustermann]

But I do think the notion of "sin" in a secular sense is a valid notion. And the notion that to knowingly mistreat your fellow humans makes you less free in some ways is woth exploring, even if it isn't exactly what the OP intended (I don't think there's anything of value to be explored from the OP's intent)

In all cultures, we have these concepts of guilt or shame, whether they have some genetic basis or are purely a cultural phenomenon. To act in ways that we know (or think) to be wrong changes us, changes our way of relating to others.

Well, as I was saying, not only I will agree with that, but I'll even put it as "strongly agree."

But if you still want to discuss the word "sin" itself... I just don't particularly think I need to conflate all that with the religious concept of "sin." (Particularly when we are in a thread that's about the religious sense of it.) We already have perfectly good words for all you're saying, IMHO. There are already the "crime" or "immoral" or "heartless" categories to file something under.

In fact, if I put on my funny thinking hat, it occurs to me that filing normal human compassion and secular morals and social contracts and secular justice under "sin" might actually be counter-productive. It actually files them under a word that means to a lot of people, "only wrong or immoral because God said so." It lumps them together with such arbitrary "sins" as working on sunday, or taking the Lord's name in vain, or touching mount Sinai, or at one point heliocentrism. I feel it actually devalues it from "crime against your fellow human" to "yet another arbitrary thing that some dustfart forbade 2000 years ago in the name of his invisible friend." It moves at least some of the focus from basic human empathy and moral sense, to "arbitrary rule".

[Elizabeth I]

It is more like the Mafia... you know, the thing with 25% and a finger cut off every-day you don't pay...

Or a horses head in your bed. But that happens up here as well when I am too drunk to check what I am getting in to.

Better than a horse's *** in your bed, as too many women have found out, much to their sorrow, way too late. :p

[ParrotPirate]

More pointless random babbling. Big surprise there.

[Jimbo07]

God does not exist.

Maybe.

The Devil does not exist.

Granted... but

There is no sin.

Of course there is. If nothing else, it's one heck of a metaphor...

[Achán hiNidráne]

So how does one pay the alleged "debt" to God? Why, infinite punishment (i.e. "Hell") for finite crimes!

How is that just? Or is this one of those "You're judging God with your corrupted reason" things again? Sorry, the only thing corrupt here is a system that wracks people with needless guilt and shame for "sins" that were never morally wrong to begin with and exist only to give authority to someone's bigotry or tyrannical impulses.

[MIKILLINI]

There are two key words in this text and they are sin and liberty. If you commit a sin you have a debt towards the person you committed that sin. When you have a debt you have to reimburse that debt and your not free. If you have a debt towards a son of God, they is no problem, but if you have a debt towards the devil, you can be sure that you have to reimburse that dept untill the last penny. Karma and sin are similar.

Gaétan

[Beavis & Butthead voice\ Uh..What?

[kerikiwi]

Maybe.



Granted... but



Of course there is. If nothing else, it's one heck of a metaphor...

The god you think maybe exists is Jehovah, yes? the christian god?

Then wouldn't the 'maybe ' apply equally to the devil, whatever his christian name is. He is, after all, a christian metaphor.

[Jimbo07]

The god you think maybe exists is Jehovah, yes? the christian god?

Pretty wide of the mark there, m'friend... ;)


Then wouldn't the 'maybe ' apply equally to the devil, whatever his christian name is. He is, after all, a christian metaphor.

I find sin to be a decent metaphor for such things as man's inhumanity to man, human frailty, etc. Another great metaphor is "selling one's soul." Everyone can relate to the idea of making a choice that is morally ambiguous at best, while conflicting with one's own conscience, regardless of personal beliefs about the existence of some weird non-corporeal aspect of existence.

Given that a number of human failings are ascribed to the character of the devil, I'm not sure for which he (or it) would best be a metaphor. I think there's too much personification in that character to regard him as a good metaphor, anyway... but, I've been wrong before. :)

[Marduk]

The god you think maybe exists is Jehovah, yes? the christian god?

Then wouldn't the 'maybe ' apply equally to the devil, whatever his christian name is. He is, after all, a christian metaphor.

Jehova cannot exist without satan, theyre a box set
:D

[realpaladin]

Of course there is. If nothing else, it's one heck of a metaphor...

I take it you raided the fridge for Tuna and Mayo again then?

[Ladewig]

I find sin to be a decent metaphor for such things as man's inhumanity to man, human frailty, etc.

I have to disagree with you and agree with Hans Mustermann in post 15. Given that there is a large swath of the U.S. population that insists on a literal definition of the word, using a metaphorical definition causes confusion.

[Ethnikos]

There are two key words in this text and they are sin and liberty. If you commit a sin you have a debt towards the person you committed that sin. When you have a debt you have to reimburse that debt and your not free. If you have a debt towards a son of God, they is no problem, but if you have a debt towards the devil, you can be sure that you have to reimburse that dept untill the last penny. Karma and sin are similar.
I do not think Jesus was referring to single sins, but a way of life that is sinful. Jesus was saying that if you believe in God, you would believe in him, since he was sent by God. We are captured into death by our works, but Jesus, as the Son of God, is able to free you from death. Meaning, belief in Jesus leads to eternal life.

[kerikiwi]

I do not think Jesus was referring to single sins, but a way of life that is sinful.

So, lots of single sins.

[Ethnikos]

So, lots of single sins.Jesus was talking to a crowd of listeners, many of whom believed him. Jesus was saying he was the truth and the truth sets you free. Others among the listeners did not believe Jesus and claimed they in fact were not slaves, and so were not in need of being freed. Jesus answered by pointing out that they were following their natural inclinations instead of following the will of God.
So the word sin is just a way of explaining why they would be trapped into the natural system of things, by being natural, in a sinful world. Jesus went against what had become, on account of sin, the nature of things which is, you live and you die. Jesus says if you believe in him, you will not die, meaning you are freed from the natural occurance of things, which can only be done with the power of God.

[kerikiwi]

Jesus says if you believe in him, you will not die, meaning you are freed from the natural occurance of things, which can only be done with the power of God.

Well I guess if you say jesus said it, it must be true.

[autumn1971]

Jesus was talking to a crowd of listeners, many of whom believed him. Jesus was saying he was the truth and the truth sets you free. Others among the listeners did not believe Jesus and claimed they in fact were not slaves, and so were not in need of being freed. Jesus answered by pointing out that they were following their natural inclinations instead of following the will of God.
So the word sin is just a way of explaining why they would be trapped into the natural system of things, by being natural, in a sinful world. Jesus went against what had become, on account of sin, the nature of things which is, you live and you die. Jesus says if you believe in him, you will not die, meaning you are freed from the natural occurance of things, which can only be done with the power of God.
So they would be freed by Jesus.
Free to be slaves to the right slavemaster.

[Ethnikos]

So they would be freed by Jesus.
Free to be slaves to the right slavemaster.One could make an argument in favor of that conclusion. John calls the believers slave or servants in the first three verses of Revelation. In the verses after the ones quoted in the OP, Jesus tells the Pharisees that their father is Satan. So, you could make a comparison between being under God, (represented by Jesus) or being under Satan.
The difference between the two masters, from Jesus' point of view, is he can give you life and Satan can not. Satan can use deceptive means to make you think you are going to have life, but he can not deliver. In this particular case, Satan makes the Pharisees think that, because they are the legitimate descendants of Abraham, they will be saved.
Satan has a trick for everyone. He does not want you to live and he will present one thing or another that will lead you away from the true giver of life. Following Satan, even if he presents himself as an angel of light, can only give you death.

[kerikiwi]

The difference between the two masters, from Jesus' point of view, is he can give you life and Satan can not. Satan can use deceptive means to make you think you are going to have life, but he can not deliver. In this particular case, Satan makes the Pharisees think that, because they are the legitimate descendants of Abraham, they will be saved.
Satan has a trick for everyone. He does not want you to live and he will present one thing or another that will lead you away from the true giver of life. Following Satan, even if he presents himself as an angel of light, can only give you death.

There are several major errors in this. Allow me to summarise:
It is Satan who can give life, not Jesus.
Satan can use deceptive means but chooses not to and he does deliver, including pizza.
Satan does want us to live.
He is the true giver of life and does everything to lead us to him.
Satan is the angel of light and following him saves us from death.



If you think any of these assertions is wrong, please explain why and provide evidence.

[HansMustermann]

Bah, heathens both of you. The only eternal life is to be had from Odin as one of His Einherjar. Your wussy christian "God" and "Satan" are just Loki fooling you ;)

[Beerina]

There are two key words in this text and they are sin and liberty. If you commit a sin you have a debt towards the person you committed that sin. When you have a debt you have to reimburse that debt and your not free. If you have a debt towards a son of God, they is no problem, but if you have a debt towards the devil, you can be sure that you have to reimburse that dept untill the last penny. Karma and sin are similar.

Gaétan


Or we could just kill God. Then we don't have to worry about Hell. Or at least we could just make sure only people like Hitler went there, and not all the 11 year old girls who were raped and murdered, having gone to the wrong church.

I think my plan is way better.

[Gaetan]

Beerina wrote:

I think my plan is way better.

What plan? Those who obtained justice had their reward. Or you go to heaven or you get justice, you can't get both.

Gaétan

[Phage0070]

Or you go to heaven or you get justice, you can't get both.

So you don't believe in a just god. Interesting.

[Marduk]

Bah, heathens both of you. The only eternal life is to be had from Odin as one of His Einherjar. Your wussy christian "God" and "Satan" are just Loki fooling you ;)
ok allow me to translate that into babylonian for you

Bah, nomads all of you. The only eternal life is to be had from Bel Marduk as one of His Apkallu. Your wussy Nordic Odin and Loki are just Ellil fooling you ;)

:p

[Gaetan]

So you don't believe in a just god. Interesting.

No, God is forgiveness, God don't punish criminals, the victime punish them or forgive. To go to heaven you have to be infinitely just towards other but not asking justice for yourself. If you don't ask for justice you obtain blessings rising you to heaven when the criminal is not punished. Peoples who always ask for justice can only regress to hell.

Gaétan

[Ethnikos]

Beerina wrote:
What plan? Those who obtained justice had their reward. Or you go to heaven or you get justice, you can't get both.
GaétanSo if the murdered girl's killer gets caught and goes to prison, it is taken from her account?
That does not sound right to me.
And what authority do you imagine you have in order to make that determination?

[Ethnikos]

No, God is forgiveness, God don't punish criminals, the victime punish them or forgive. To go to heaven you have to be infinitely just towards other but not asking justice for yourself. If you don't ask for justice you obtain blessings rising you to heaven when the criminal is not punished. Peoples who always ask for justice can only regress to hell.
GaétanNo, I think God hears those and is a God of Justice, and will dispense justice as He sees fit. We might be in a bad place if we curse God for not acting quick enough.
Read Revelation about the souls of those beheaded, under the altar in heaven. They will get justice, and not be punished for it.

[kerikiwi]

There are several major errors in this. Allow me to summarise:
It is Satan who can give life, not Jesus.
Satan can use deceptive means but chooses not to and he does deliver, including pizza.
Satan does want us to live.
He is the true giver of life and does everything to lead us to him.
Satan is the angel of light and following him saves us from death.



If you think any of these assertions is wrong, please explain why and provide evidence.

Apologies for repeating myself, but Ethnikos overlooked this and has continued with his preaching of a false religion.

[fuelair]

More pointless random babbling. Big surprise there.

Yay shalt there be always pointless random babbling for of thus is the restroom of heavin!