Hanni Hanjour's flying record pimped by the Israeli army

[9/11-investigator]

Meanwhile the controlled demolition of the official conspiracy theory goes ahead full throttle...

Everybody who ever had to do with the alleged f77 hijacker Hanni Hanjour testified that he was an incompetent tinker. Several flight schools refused to rent a plane to him. And yet he was the one that supposedly behave like a WW2 ace and parked his Boeing into the Pentagon, accidently exactly on the spot where financial comptrollers under the dedicated leadership of Dov Zakheim (who fortunately was not present in his office on 9/11) were busy clearing out the administrative mess in order to find out where these darned 2.3 trillion dollars had gone (my suggestion: look 10,000 km eastwards)

According to the link a testimony before the official 9/11-commission (under the dedicated leadership of Zelikow) convinced said commission that it must have been Hanjour who parked his Boeing into the Pentagon.

Interesting detail: the witness, a Eddie Shalev, once served in the Israeli army. It is not clear if he worked for the secret service. Unfortunately the fellow has disappeared (my suggestion: start looking 10,000 km eastwards) and is hence unable to shed more light on the matter. It would be particularly interesting to find out why Shalev had so radical different ideas about the merits of Hanour as a pilot than everybody else.


http://www.911blogger.com/node/20573

So, who is Eddie Shalev? His identity remained unknown for more than seven years, but was finally revealed in one of the files released in January 2009 by the National Archives. The document, labelled a “Memorandum for the Record,” is a summary of the April 2004 interview with Eddie Shalev conducted by commission staffer Quinn John Tamm.[32] The document confirms that Shalev went on record: “Mr Shalev stated that based on his observations Hanjour was a ‘good’ pilot.”...

But the shocker is the revelation that Eddie Shalev is an Israeli and served in the Israeli army. The file states that “Mr. Shalev served in the Israeli Defense Forces in a paratroop regiment. He was a jumpmaster on a Boeing C-130. Mr. Shalev moved to the Gaithersburg area in April 2001 and was sponsored for employment by Congressional Air Charters…[which] has subsequently gone out of business.”


For good measure: this sad looser Hanjour was once pressed by his brother in Saudi-Arabia to become an airline pilot, rather than following his own instinct that told him that he should aim to become a mere stewardess (well you know what I mean) which was more in line with his innate abilities.

So there we have this pathetic 5 foot small Hanjour trying to live up to the expectation level of his brother catching the attention of Mossad agents on the lookout for a suitable patsy for their devious plans and they decide to 'embrace' him...

[peteweaver]

How 'incompetent' does one have to be to deliberately crash a plane into a huge massive building ?

Kamikaze pilots are very hard to stop, their 'job' is very easy.

[DGM]

"several flight schools failed to rent to him"? Do you have references?

If AA77 didn't fly into or over the building have you looked into under? You know the retractable lawn where the anti-aircraft batteries are located.:p

[HeyLeroy]

Eddie Shalev was a flight instructor at Congressional Air Charters, Gaithersburg, MD, in 2001. He accompanied Hani Hanjour in August 2001 on a training flight to evaluate Hanjour's flying abilities, and told the 9/11 Commission that, based on his observations, Hanjor was a "good" pilot.
http://www.911myths.com/index.php/Eddie_Shalev

****, that was easy.

[HeyLeroy]

Ohhh, I get it.

[NickUK]

"Hani Hanjour was a crap pilot."

Blah blah blah. Same old, same old. Round and round and round.

[HeyLeroy]

Darn right. He crashed, didn't he?

[Arus808]

How 'incompetent' does one have to be to deliberately crash a plane into a huge massive building ?

Kamikaze pilots are very hard to stop, their 'job' is very easy.


and most of them were not experienced pilots since the embargo on Japan during that time, also cost the Japanese military supplies and waging war cost them also their most experience pilots. Earlier recruitment of pilots for Kamikaze missions, only wanted youthful, alert, and have zeal. flight experience was of minimal importance.

[Disenchanted]

According to the link a testimony before the official 9/11-commission (under the dedicated leadership of Zelikow) convinced said commission that it must have been Hanjour who parked his Boeing into the Pentagon.

The same "dedicated" Philip Zelikow that testified against the Bush Administration in regards to torture?

[dudalb]

How 'incompetent' does one have to be to deliberately crash a plane into a huge massive building ?

Kamikaze pilots are very hard to stop, their 'job' is very easy.

As a lot of people who served in the US Navy during the last year of World War 2 could have told you.
And the 9/11 Hijackers did not have anti aircraft fire, opposing fighters trying to shoot them down, and a target that can maneuver to deal with.
Another epic fail by 9/11 Investigator.

[MarkyX]

Why are you making it sound like being part of the Israeli army as an adult in Israeli is so....suspicious?

They have mandatory service.

[defaultdotxbe]

Everybody who ever had to do with the alleged f77 hijacker Hanni Hanjour testified that he was an incompetent tinker. Several flight schools refused to rent a plane to him.
"There's no doubt in my mind that once that [hijacked jet] got going, he [Hanjour] could have pointed that plane at a building and hit it."

-Marcel Bernard (one of the guys who refused to rent Hanjour a plane)



also, its my understanding that Hanjour's trouble was with landing the plane, a kill not required for what he did on 9/11

[Reheat]

Thanks to MikeW Eddie G. Shalev is alive and well in Gaithersburg the same location he was in 2001.

http://www.911myths.com/index.php/Eddie_Shalev

Perhaps Eddie Shalev helps to explain Hani's primary problem. I suspect his problem was more a language issue than actual flying skill. (In contrast to the conspiratorial view) I think Eddie helps explain Hani's problem in view of other evidence. I suspect that Hani had a very pronounced Arab accent, but Eddie Shalev understood him because he was accustomed to that accent.

This would also explain why the FAA Inspector who sat in on one of Hani's classes recommended a translator (the ability to write and speak English is an FAA Requirement). Hani could speak and understand English (he passed FAA written exams), but his accent made it difficult to impossible to understand by native English speakers. This would explain how an FAA Examiner was not necessarily violating FAA Regs by recommending a translator.

For those who have lived in another Country where English is not the primary language, this should be quite easy to understand.

This is perhaps why there is such disparity in Flight Instructors' opinions of Hani. Obviously, he was not an "ace", but he was good enough to pass a written and practical exam to obtain both a Private and a Commercial Pilot's License. A very difficult to understand accent would explain the disparity of comments about him and why several schools would not rent an aircraft to him. It would also explain why the FAA Inspector was not violating FAA Regulations by recommending a translator.

[Pinch]

in order to find out where these darned 2.3 trillion dollars had gone (my suggestion: look 10,000 km eastwards)

As soon as anyone brings up that 2.3 trillion in *any* context other than what the reality of the situation was, any scintilla of credibility goes right down the toilet.

Not that *any* Troother has a scintilla of credibility...ever. The repeated invoking of this 2.3 trillion is proof positive that these morons have no clue whatsoever about anything related to 9/11. This is in the same category of "surface-to-air missiles at the Pentagon" and a 200,000 lb 767 traveling at 500 mph would bounce off the WTC.

[1337m4n]

Even somebody with no flight training whatsoever can crash a plane.


Good lord people. The hardest parts of flying are taking off and landing. Neither of which Hanjour had to do.

[triforcharity]

Ok, I just got on my brother's flight sim (he's a pilot BTW, for the USAF) and I caan crash into the pentagon and the twin towers, and I have NEVER had ANY kind of flight training, other than the 5 minute crash course (Pun intended) that he gave me. Heck, if I can do it, I bet someone with some formal training could do it...


Idiotic arguments........

[MarkyX]

As soon as anyone brings up that 2.3 trillion in *any* context other than what the reality of the situation was, any scintilla of credibility goes right down the toilet.


The sad thing is anyone who is taking an introduction to accounting course could easily understand what Rummy was talking about.

Further proof 9/11 deniers aren't very well educated.

[George152]

Everybody who ever had to do with the alleged f77 hijacker Hanni Hanjour testified that he was an incompetent tinker. Several flight schools refused to rent a plane to him. And yet he was the one that supposedly behave like a WW2 ace and parked his Boeing into the Pentagon, accidently exactly on the spot where financial comptrollers under the dedicated leadership of Dov Zakheim (who fortunately was not present in his office on 9/11) were busy clearing out the administrative mess in order to find out where these darned 2.3 trillion dollars had gone (my suggestion: look 10,000 km eastwards)

...

The same old silliness eh?
The suicide pilot to whom you refer had a CPL (Commercial Pilot License).
That means he had a minimum of 250 flying hours.
There were NO manouvers carried out by the suicide pilot that were outside the normal.
The descending turn at the end of the flight is a maneuver carried out by student pilots with as low as 2 hours instruction.

You obviously need an audience far more gullible than the one you'll find here

[Justin39640]

i thought the rental issues came from him having trouble taking off and landing
not while they were in mid-flight

being from NY and having so many cultures and accents here
i speak and understand fluent crappy english
but i could see how an accent could totally ruin someones day like that

[George152]

i thought the rental issues came from him having trouble taking off and landing
not while they were in mid-flight

being from NY and having so many cultures and accents here
i speak and understand fluent crappy english
but i could see how an accent could totally ruin someones day like that

One of the factors in American GA is, as you pointed out, the use of English.
Inability to follow an instructors commands or to understand control clearances will ground you faster than a heart murmur..

[MikeW]

Wow, Shalev was an Israeli? Who knew? Oh, hold on, we did, because I posted this almost 7 months ago:

Eddie Shalev says Hanjour is a good pilot. Shalev is an Israeli national and ex-IDF paratrooper, so I expect the truthers to stop pretending he doesn't exist and make him more central to the plot.
http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=4345691&postcount=34

Also, here's Gaffey's first take on Shalev's whereabouts:

Real people have known addresses. But Eddie Shalev’s whereabouts has been unknown for years. As reported by David Griffin, a 2007 search of the national telephone directory, plus Google searches by research librarian Elizabeth Woodworth, turned up no trace of him. A LexisNexis search by Matthew Everett also came up dry.[35] The 9/11 memorandum indicates that Shalev’s US visa was about to expire in July 2004, suggesting that Shalev may have returned to Israel. Clearly, the man needs to be found, subpoenaed and made to testify under oath before a new investigation, even if this requires extradition. Quinn John Tamm and the two Freeway instructors, Sheri Baxter and Ben Conner, should also be subpoenaed. All are key witnesses and obvious starting points for a new investigation.
Yahoo! cache of the original blog entry (http://74.6.239.67/search/cache?ei=UTF-8&p=the911mysteryplane&rd=r1&fr=yfp-t-501&u=www.the911mysteryplane.com/&w=the911mysteryplane&d=dArqSBlMTEFx&icp=1&.intl=uk)

Here he's simply taking the word of David Ray Griffin that an in-depth search found no trace of him. I mentioned this to some people with connections to Gaffney, and what do you know, the 911blogger version features an addition:

Real people have known addresses. But Eddie Shalev’s whereabouts has been unknown for years. As reported by David Griffin, a 2007 search of the national telephone directory, plus Google searches by research librarian Elizabeth Woodworth, turned up no trace of him. A LexisNexis search by Matthew Everett also came up dry.[35] Not satisfied, I conducted my own search and did turn up two possible addresses for an "Eddy Shalev" in the Gaithersburg-Rockville, Maryland area. But the lead went nowhere. The phone number had been disconnected.
http://www.911blogger.com/node/20573

Of course it's his "own" search. Entirely Gaffney's own idea. And while he was satisfied with Griffin's account of events originally, his mysterious dissatisfaction now had nothing to do with me, because crackerjack researchers like Gaffney know far more than us ignorant debunkers. Right?

[ferd burfle]

The file states that “Mr. Shalev served in the Israeli Defense Forces in a paratroop regiment. He was a jumpmaster on a Boeing C-130.


That would be a Lockheed-Martin C-130. Dumbbell truthers, they can't even get the little things right.

Ferd

[Brainster]

Hanjour's problem was not actually flying the plane, it was responding to commands in English from the control towers.

[T.A.M.]

Hanjour's problem was not actually flying the plane, it was responding to commands in English from the control towers.

which to him, was probably an asset on his particular mission.

TAM

[chillzero]

And yet he was the one that supposedly behave like a WW2 ace and parked his Boeing into the Pentagon

<snip>

it must have been Hanjour who parked his Boeing into the Pentagon.



If that's your idea of talented parking, then I'm glad I'm not in the vicinity when you go to the mall.

[doobiedoright]

Gee.........You seem to be lacking any evidence of any kind.
How does one get so much wrong 100% of the time?

[ElMondoHummus]

If that's your idea of talented parking, then I'm glad I'm not in the vicinity when you go to the mall.

:lolsign:

And on top of that: WW2 Ace?? Really? Wasn't the Kamikaze recruiting pitch (http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Kamikaze) ".. youth, alertness and zeal. Flight experience was of minimal importance and expertise in landing a luxury"?1 Yeah, 9/11-investigator's on it, as usual :rolleyes:. He manages to mangle two entirely separate events in history in the process.



1. "Kamikaze: Japan's Suicide Gods", Albert Axell (http://www.amazon.com/Kamikaze-Japans-Suicide-Albert-Axell/dp/058277232X)

[Allen773]

"Behaved like a WW2 ace?"

Any professional pilot would tell you that Hanjour's final maneuver was very easy to pull off.

[Alt+F4]

and most of them were not experienced pilots since the embargo on Japan during that time, also cost the Japanese military supplies and waging war cost them also their most experience pilots. Earlier recruitment of pilots for Kamikaze missions, only wanted youthful, alert, and have zeal. flight experience was of minimal importance.

I believe Kamikaze training lasted about 30 days, most of that on the difficulities of taking off from an aircraft carrier. The crashing part was much easier.

[9/11-investigator]

How 'incompetent' does one have to be to deliberately crash a plane into a huge massive building ?

Kamikaze pilots are very hard to stop, their 'job' is very easy.

Maybe it is 'easy' for a Japanese pilot flying a single propeller plane at a speed of 100 miles/hour crashing into a American carrier. But the overwelming majority of professional pilots will tell you that the manouver supposedly carried out by Hanjour was extremely difficult and actually rather unlikely to succeed.

Question: where is the society for Pilots for debunking 9/11 truth?

[9/11-investigator]

"several flight schools failed to rent to him"? Do you have references?

How about reading the link I gave you in the first post.

[9/11-investigator]

Eddie Shalev is a JEW.
Therefore obviously he is a SUSPECT.
I think thats pretty much sums up what "9/11-investigator" has to say on the issue.

I'm glad you picked up the essence of 'my' conspiracy theory. The issue which this thread is about fits rather neatly in that theory, would you not agree?

[9/11-investigator]

and most of them were not experienced pilots since the embargo on Japan during that time, also cost the Japanese military supplies and waging war cost them also their most experience pilots. Earlier recruitment of pilots for Kamikaze missions, only wanted youthful, alert, and have zeal. flight experience was of minimal importance.

They were pilots anyway, trained in the planes they would carry out their final mission in. The speed was a factor of 4 lower, they could approach the carrier in a straigth line in small aircraft that were highly manouverable as compared to F77; many missed their target anyway. Hanjour was a sucker who could hardly fly a Cessna according to all witnesses expect this Israeli chap who testified before the 9/11-commission (probably hand-picked by Zelikow), let alone a highly complex Boeing that takes years for a trained pilot to master. The official story is BS and you know it.

[9/11-investigator]

The same "dedicated" Philip Zelikow that testified against the Bush Administration in regards to torture?

Dedicated means in this context making sure that the real culprits (from his own tribe) could stay out of the spot-light.

The issue of torture and whether Zelikow backs it or not is of no direct relevance of the cover-up practices he engaged in during his work for the 9/11 commission.

And I am not so sure he is really against torture:
http://www.opednews.com/articles/Too-Slow-Zelikow-UVA-Back-by-David-Swanson-090519-122.html

[funk de fino]

Maybe it is 'easy' for a Japanese pilot flying a single propeller plane at a speed of 100 miles/hour crashing into a American carrier. But the overwelming majority of professional pilots will tell you that the manouver supposedly carried out by Hanjour was extremely difficult and actually rather unlikely to succeed.

Question: where is the society for Pilots for debunking 9/11 truth?

Liar

[9/11-investigator]

And the 9/11 Hijackers did not have anti aircraft fire, opposing fighters trying to shoot them down, and a target that can maneuver to deal with.
Another epic fail by 9/11 Investigator.

Now that you mentioned it... it remains strange that anti-aircraft batteries that according to prominent truthers are installed around the Pentagon did no go off.

I know that 911myths says:

"we've never, ever, at any point seen a reference to show that these missile batteries exist. "

http://www.911myths.com/html/pentagon_missile_batteries.html

But what does 911myths know or rather wants to know in this context?

It would be highly surprising if the brains of the American defence system would be left unprotected.

But maybe it is a little too much to expect that these batteries can be used against explosives places inside the Pentagon.

[funk de fino]

They were pilots anyway, trained in the planes they would carry out their final mission in. The speed was a factor of 4 lower, they could approach the carrier in a straigth line in small aircraft that were highly manouverable as compared to F77; many missed their target anyway. Hanjour was a sucker who could hardly fly a Cessna according to all witnesses expect this Israeli chap who testified before the 9/11-commission (probably hand-picked by Zelikow), let alone a highly complex Boeing that takes years for a trained pilot to master. The official story is BS and you know it.

Do you know what anti aircraft fire is?

[funk de fino]

Now that you mentioned it... it remains strange that anti-aircraft batteries that according to prominent truthers are installed around the Pentagon did no go off.

I know that 911myths says:

"we've never, ever, at any point seen a reference to show that these missile batteries exist. "

http://www.911myths.com/html/pentagon_missile_batteries.html

But what does 911myths know or rather wants to know in this context?

It would be highly surprising if the brains of the American defence system would be left unprotected.

But maybe it is a little too much to expect that these batteries can be used against explosives places inside the Pentagon.

There were no missiles at the Pentagon.

[9/11-investigator]

There were no missiles at the Pentagon.

Different people, different opinions.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/MEY204C.html

And here:

http://www.911truth.org/article.php?story=20040527222832444

October 2000:

The Department of Defense responds competently to these developments, by rehearsing a MASCAL (mass casualty) exercise based on the scenario of a plane crashing into the Pentagon. The live exercise of Oct. 24, 2000 involves rescue crews directed from a command center. A paper plane is set aflame within a scale model of the building. A military news-site later publishes an article about it. NOTE: The Pentagon is known to be ringed with anti-aircraft batteries.


Here is a reference to the existence of anti-aircraft batteries in Washington mounted on roftops:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2005/apr/29/usa.september11

You don't necessarily need batteries in the vicinity of the Pentagon in order to still protect the Pentagon. Don't tell me that DC was unprotected. Moscow has a ring of these batteries around it which means that the Kremlin and any other buildings in Moscow are protected. And DC would not have anything similar? By the time the explosions went off in the Pentagon everybody knew that the US was under attack.

This whole story stinks to heaven with a smell of cordite.
http://freedomisforeverybody.blogspot.com/2007/07/cordite-smell-at-pentagon-on-911.html
http://911research.wtc7.net/pentagon/evidence/witnesses/explosive.html

[funk de fino]

Would you care to elaborate?

You know the rules: attack the argument, not the arguer.

Your claim is a lie about overwhelming majority. That is your argument.

Please provide evidence for your claim or withdraw.

Overwhelmingly the aircraft experts on this forum disagree.

[funk de fino]

Different people, different opinions.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/MEY204C.html

Not and opinion its a fact. Please provide evidence of the missiles. Not hearsay, not truthy websites but real evidence.

[9/11-investigator]

Do you know what anti aircraft fire is?

Do you know what a fork is?

[9/11-investigator]

Your claim is a lie about overwhelming majority.

I don't understand this sentence. You mean my opinion is different from the overwelming number of government loyalists around here? Guilty as charged.

Overwhelmingly the aircraft experts on this forum disagree.

:D No kidding!

[9/11-investigator]

Please provide evidence for your claim or withdraw.

We demand that you prove that DC had no anti aircraft batteries installed anywhere. If you fail to comply we are going to invade the US and destroy it and make sure that at least 1 million Americans are going to get killed.

Seriously, that was how you acted towards Saddam and Iraq.

The idea that this modern day Babylon, that spends more on 'defence' than the rest of the planet combined, had its capital unprotected is absolutely ludicrous.

[MikeW]

I know that 911myths says:

"we've never, ever, at any point seen a reference to show that these missile batteries exist. "

http://www.911myths.com/html/pentagon_missile_batteries.html

But what does 911myths know or rather wants to know in this context?
You make it sound like it's just my opinion.

And you do that by failing to point out my reference to Richard Clarke - hardly a Bush supporter - who said this in his book:

The Secret Service and Customs had teamed up in Atlanta to provide some rudimentary air defense against an aircraft flying into the Olympic Stadium. They did so again during the subsequent National Security Special Events and they agreed to create a permanent air defense unit to protect Washington. Unfortunately, those two federal law enforcement agencies were housed in the Treasury Department and its leadership did not want to pay for such a mission or run the liability risks of shooting down the wrong aircraft. Treasury nixed the air defense unit, and my attempts within the White House to overrule them came to naught. The idea of aircraft attacking in Washington seemed remote to many people and the risks of shooting down aircraft in a city were thought to be far too high. Moreover, the opponents of our plan argued, the Air Force could always scramble fighter aircraft to protect Washington if there were a problem. On occasions when aircraft were hijacked (and in one case when we erroneously believed a Northwest flight had been seized), the Air Force did intercept the airliners with fighter jets. We succeeded only in getting Secret Service the permission to continue to examine air defense options, including the possibility of placing missile units near the White House. Most people who heard about our efforts to create some air defense system in case terrorists tried to fly aircraft into the Capitol, the White House, or the Pentagon simply thought we were nuts.
Page 131
Against all Enemies
Richard A Clarke

Not "opinion", not wishful thinking, but fact: an authoritative source telling us that, even if the special case of the Olympics, most people really weren't interested in an air defence system of the type you're proposing.

No, the real opinion here is the fact-free, insubstantial, wishful thinking writings of truthers such as yourself, who with no support tell us that it would be "highly surprising if the brains of the American defence system would be left unprotected". Griffin tries the personal incredulity argument, too, and it's just as worthless.

The reality here is that no-one has made a case that missile batteries would protect anyone. Planes fly virtually over the Pentagon on a regular basis: there is no way to guarantee you'll hit something in time. No guarantee you would stop the plane anyway. No guarantee that you wouldn't cause more deaths than you saved. These points are made over, and over, and over, and over again, and truthers never answer them: because they can't.

And the reality here is that you have no photos of these batteries. Why not? They "ring" the building, right? So where are they? Truthers never answer: because they can't.

And the reality is that you have no evidence from anyone who worked on them. Why not? Oh, truthers do have an answer, here: they've been leaned on or are "afraid of losing their jobs". Because the entire world is composed of cowardly automatons who do what they're told, apart from the brave warriors of the "truth" movement, right?

So the real issue here isn't "what does 911myths know or rather wants to know in this context?"; it's why truthers like you cling to something based on little more than personal incredulity, wishful thinking, and the words of known liars like David Ray Griffin.

[9/11-investigator]

Why are you making it sound like being part of the Israeli army as an adult in Israeli is so....suspicious?

They have mandatory service.

The Israeli identity of the only witness who had something positive to say about the flying skils of would-be stewardess Hanjour is the issue here.

[MRC_Hans]

Maybe it is 'easy' for a Japanese pilot flying a single propeller plane at a speed of 100 miles/hour crashing into a American carrier. But the overwelming majority of professional pilots will tell you that the manouver supposedly carried out by Hanjour was extremely difficult and actually rather unlikely to succeed.

Question: where is the society for Pilots for debunking 9/11 truth?

Easy to fly a small, flimsy plane agaist a moving target while several hundred gunners try desperately to shoot you down? Yeah!

Which professional pilots? He made a (appr) 270deg descending turn. That is something any pilot can do.

Hans

[T.A.M.]

I am guessing most pilots are too busy flying to be bothered debunking some has been pilots et al on the internetz. (though we do have a couple of troopers who wade through the crud here).

TAM:)

[9/11-investigator]

"There's no doubt in my mind that once that [hijacked jet] got going, he [Hanjour] could have pointed that plane at a building and hit it."

-Marcel Bernard (one of the guys who refused to rent Hanjour a plane)

also, its my understanding that Hanjour's trouble was with landing the plane, a kill not required for what he did on 9/11

Here is a reference to that statement:
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread317559/pg1

So why should I attach great weight to statements made by a second hand plane letter? I'm more interested in the opinion of professional airline pilots and they tell a different story.

[dtugg]

So why should I attach great weight to statements made by a second hand plane letter? I'm more interested in the opinion of professional airline pilots and they tell a different story.

Which ones? Cap'n Bob and a few other psychos at PffffffffT?

[MRC_Hans]

Now that you mentioned it... it remains strange that anti-aircraft batteries that according to prominent truthers are installed around the Pentagon did no go off.

*snip*

Wheter or not there is or were AAA batteries around Pentagon is really immaterial. In peace-time, the crew of AAA batteries are not instructed to shoot down civilian planes, even if they behave strange. For obvious reasons, I should think, considering there is an airport in the vicinity.

At the point where it became obvious that the plane was heading to crash into the Pentagon, shooting it down would not only have been difficult (fast, low target), but the risk of having it cash into something else and of peppering the surrounding buildings with shells would have been overwhelming.

There might be AAA near the Pentagon, but the dirctions for using it must, even now, be so prohibitive as to render it virtually useless in peace-time.

Hans

[BigAl]

Here is a reference to that statement:
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread317559/pg1

So why should I attach great weight to statements made by a second hand plane letter? I'm more interested in the opinion of professional airline pilots and they tell a different story.

Why should I buy your unsourced quote from an unnamed alleged pilot which is all I find when I click on the above link. According to the owner of a flight school at which 2 of the 4 accused 9/11 hijack pilots trained on simple aircraft with questionable ... all » competence, neither he nor the 9/11 hijackers implicated in the attacks, could pilot the 757 and 767 aircraft that they are alleged to have flown into targets on September 11, 2001.

As far as I can tell, no instructor that saw any of the hijackers fly says they were incapable of the simple maneuvers performed on 9/11.

[9/11-investigator]

Which ones? Cap'n Bob and a few other psychos at PffffffffT?

Badly informed as usual.

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/core.html

[MarkyX]

But the overwelming majority of professional pilots will tell you that the manouver supposedly carried out by Hanjour was extremely difficult and actually rather unlikely to succeed.


So making a large U-turn and moving the plane in one direction SLOWLY is a "professional" manuever?

Because I've seen plenty of people using Microsoft Flight Simulator, and one person using a professional simulator in a Dutch Documentary, easily hitting the Pentagon. Any "professional" pilot who claims the maneuvers were hard to pull off is someone I wouldn't want to be in control of the plane I'm in.

[dtugg]

Badly informed as usual.

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/core.html

No, it's exactly as I predicted: Cap'n Bob (who doesn't even fly anymore) and a few other psychos at PffffffffffffT.

[9/11-investigator]

more prominent the truther, the bigger the lie.

this is 2009, are we STILL discussing the myth of anti-aircraft batteries around the Pentagon? really????

TAM

As if that matter is settled.

[MRC_Hans]

You should guess a lot less and use your ratio to come to the conclusion that most pilots are too careful about their careers to come up with controversial opinions deemed unpatriotic.

Remember the fate of this Canadian female politician who got sacked after expressing mere doubts about the official story. No wonder that most prominent truthers open their mouths only at retirement age. Like Griffin, Donn le Pre, this major general we discussed a few days ago. Look what happened to Jones.

The general rule that first you have to go through a difficult period of being a dissident with potentially having to spend time in jail before you become president in the US in 2012.

Think Walesa, think Havel.Uhh, reality check, 9/11: This may come as a surprise for you, but ... Most of the world's airline pilots are not US citizens, and they could not care less about what the US gov't think about them. Quite a few are even hostile the the US.

Hans

[MRC_Hans]

That´s not ´a few´.

And of course your counter list of debunker pilots is nowhere to be seen.

Pomperpomperdepom.I seem to remember a few posting here.

Hans

[funk de fino]

Federal Aviation Administration records show a Hani Hanjour received a commercial pilot's license in 1999 and listing a post office box in Saudi Arabia as his address.

really?

[Reheat]

But the overwelming majority of professional pilots will tell you that the manouver supposedly carried out by Hanjour was extremely difficult and actually rather unlikely to succeed.


This is a blatant unmitigated lie.

[9/11-investigator]

Uhh, reality check, 9/11: This may come as a surprise for you, but ... Most of the world's airline pilots are not US citizens, and they could not care less about what the US gov't think about them. Quite a few are even hostile the the US.

Hans

There are still many American pilots left who could have supported the government. Nobody does. Isn´t that strange?

(retorical question)

[Josarhus]

There are still many American pilots left who could have supported the government. Nobody does. Isn´t that strange?

(retorical question)


Don't they support the government by NOT joining the truth movement?!?

[twinstead]

Don't they support the government by NOT joining the truth movement?!?

Nope. It appears that a circuit breaker to prevent truthers from having to deal with the fact their delightful little 'movement' is just a tiny bunch of paranoid fools and snake oil salesmen is to imply that anybody--ANY expert from around the world--who hasn't explicitly come out and said he believes the "official story" is either in on the plot or afraid to come forward.

They even put the contributors to the NIST and others who have published papers dealing with the collapse that support the commonly-held narrative of that day in this category.

It's deliciously stupid.

[FineWine]

We demand that you prove that DC had no anti aircraft batteries installed anywhere. If you fail to comply we are going to invade the US and destroy it and make sure that at least 1 million Americans are going to get killed.

Seriously, that was how you acted towards Saddam and Iraq.

The idea that this modern day Babylon, that spends more on 'defence' than the rest of the planet combined, had its capital unprotected is absolutely ludicrous.


Thanks for your lucid analysis. And to think that silly scholars of the Middle East, students of geopolitics, and world leaders around the globe thought that Saddam was required by the ceasefire agreement he accepted in 1991 to account for his WMD. What do they know?

Your argument from incredulity and ignorance has failed. There were no missile defense systems protecting the Pentagon. Evidence for such systems is nonexistent.

[FineWine]

There are still many American pilots left who could have supported the government. Nobody does. Isn´t that strange?

(retorical question)


People who lie pathologically always seem to have difficulties with the way language works. The tiny handful of pilots who associate themselves with the fact-free idiots at pfft! constitute an infinitesimal fraction of the total number of American pilots.
Your baseless claim that few pilots support the side with ALL the evidence--the sane side--would be one of your deranged movement's most outrageous falsehoods if you had any clue about reality.

No, it's not strange; it's merely untrue.

[beachnut]

Maybe it is 'easy' for a Japanese pilot flying a single propeller plane at a speed of 100 miles/hour crashing into a American carrier. But the overwelming majority of professional pilots will tell you that the manouver supposedly carried out by Hanjour was extremely difficult and actually rather unlikely to succeed.

Question: where is the society for Pilots for debunking 9/11 truth?
It was harder for the Japanese pilot flying a prop plane but you are not a pilot so you spew lies about 911 and have no clues on flying or why flying a 767/757 is easier. Your goal is to spread lies and not come up with evidence to support your delusional lies.

Wrong, 99.9 percent of all professional pilots know it is easy to hit a building and they also know Hani did no special maneuvers on 911. You like lies that match your moronic ideas on 911. You have not talked to professional pilots on this issue. You have the failed ideas of 73 pilots from p4t the failed movement of pilots with brain dead ideas on 911; you failed to contact pilots who understand flying and are not paranoid dolts repeating inside job nut case ideas about flying. Balsamo is not a airline transport pilot, he is a paranoid anti-government loon who can't do math and leaves up his major math errors for all to see his incompetence extends to math, physics and his primary job spreading lies about 911, 15 dollars a DVD.

Where is your list of professional pilots? Without using the 73 not so professional pilots from p4t house of nut case ideas on 911. You never source your lies; why?

[lapman]

It was harder for the Japanese pilot flying a prop plane but you are not a pilot so you spew lies about 911 and have no clues on flying or why flying a 767/757 is easier. Your goal is to spread lies not come up with evidence to support your delusional lies.
I had to laugh at that garbage. They weren't flying C-150's. Most were 250+ mph and relatively unstable when compared to the 757 and 767. Yet those pilots with ~200 hours were able to fly through a hail of bullets and shrapnel to hit a moving target. Yet, Hani, with 600+ hours of training would not be able to fly that stable aircraft into the side of a large building on a clear day with no opposition, according to twoofers. :boggled:

[triforcharity]

Now that you mentioned it... it remains strange that anti-aircraft batteries that according to prominent truthers are installed around the Pentagon did no go off.

I know that 911myths says:

"we've never, ever, at any point seen a reference to show that these missile batteries exist. "

http://www.911myths.com/html/pentagon_missile_batteries.html

But what does 911myths know or rather wants to know in this context?

It would be highly surprising if the brains of the American defence system would be left unprotected.

But maybe it is a little too much to expect that these batteries can be used against explosives places inside the Pentagon.


Um, hey 9/11 liar, have you taken into consideration that there is a MAJOR airport not far from there?? Missles tend to not discriminate. It would have been impracticle to put missles outside the pentagon for permanant placement.

[ElMondoHummus]

Um, hey 9/11 liar, have you taken into consideration that there is a MAJOR airport not far from there?? Missles tend to not discriminate. It would have been impracticle to put missles outside the pentagon for permanant placement.

Tri is correct. Flights coming into Reagan International have a few approach choices, one of which brings them right by the Pentagon. The following videos are boring as all hell, but they do show just how close planes come to that building.

UU1WXzQ5qRM
X81ri6cXCMg
Fa5qg6_Un-Q
Planes on normal approach come damn close. Just how much warning would the Pentagon have once they realized that a jet is on a collision course, and not on landing approach to DCA? Single digit seconds? At most?

It's silly for conspiracy peddlers to assert missile batteries exist at the Pentagon. This claim has been refuted time and time again (http://www.911myths.com/html/pentagon_missile_batteries.html).

[T.A.M.]

I love the truther approach though...

"I find the idea ridiculous, therefore IT MUST BE UNTRUE."

TAM:)

[tsig]

Maybe it is 'easy' for a Japanese pilot flying a single propeller plane at a speed of 100 miles/hour crashing into a American carrier. But the overwelming majority of professional pilots will tell you that the manouver supposedly carried out by Hanjour was extremely difficult and actually rather unlikely to succeed.

Question: where is the society for Pilots for debunking 9/11 truth?

He turned to the right and lost altitude what's so hard about that? Every pilot since the Wright brothers has done that maneuver.

[Magenta]

Um, hey 9/11 liar, have you taken into consideration that there is a MAJOR airport not far from there?? Missles tend to not discriminate. It would have been impracticle to put missles outside the pentagon for permanant placement.

Tri is correct. Flights coming into Reagan International have a few approach choices, one of which brings them right by the Pentagon.


Hmmm, missiles near a busy airport. What could possibly go wrong?

[Disenchanted]

Dedicated means in this context making sure that the real culprits (from his own tribe) could stay out of the spot-light.

The issue of torture and whether Zelikow backs it or not is of no direct relevance of the cover-up practices he engaged in during his work for the 9/11 commission.

And I am not so sure he is really against torture:
http://www.opednews.com/articles/Too-Slow-Zelikow-UVA-Back-by-David-Swanson-090519-122.html

The evidence shows who the real culprits were 19 hijackers from your tribe (the hate Jewish people tribe).

Your pushing fiction that Hanjour could not crash a plane does not change that.

Is supporting your tribe why you post a fantasy, that some how Zelikow magically got all those who were involved in the Commission to cover up for "his own tribe"?

It is relevant because if the all-powerful Zelikow would testify against the Bush Administration for that why not 9/11?

[tfk]

911-i,

Can you point me to some of the investigations that you have completed?


We demand that you prove that DC had no anti aircraft batteries installed anywhere. If you fail to comply we are going to invade the US and destroy it and make sure that at least 1 million Americans are going to get killed.

Seriously, that was how you acted towards Saddam and Iraq.

.
We didn't act ANYTHING like that in the slightest.

We said he had to:
1. Stop all WMD programs. SH did not do this.
2. Give a full accounting of all his programs. This is writing a report down on paper. SH did not do this.
3. Allow open & unfettered access for inspectors. SH did not do this.

None of these were impossible tasks. South Africa did all of them many years ago when it gave up its nuclear programs.


The idea that this modern day Babylon, that spends more on 'defence' than the rest of the planet combined, had its capital unprotected is absolutely ludicrous.

.
"Modern day Babylon..." Are you gonna get all biblical on our butts now?

The US does not spend more than the rest of the world combined. Is this merely a comforting fiction that allows you to identify "the bad guy"?

US budget: 1464 Billion
World budget: 607 Billion
US % of world: 41.5%

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_expenditures

Interestingly, as a percent of GNP, the US ranks #27, after (amongst others) Chad, Brunei, Swaziland, Morocco, El Salvador, Maldives, Mauritania, Macedonia, Eritrea, Israel (6), Jordan (5), Iraq (4), Saudi Arabia (3), Qatar (2) and Oman (1).

It should be noted that we spent (in 2005) 4.1% of our GNP on defense. This was after 4 years of expensive war in Afghanistan & Iraq.

With regard to missile batteries, you're nuts. NOBODY is going to attack us militarily. And that is what the US military is designed to address. MILITARY attacks. And they had that covered. They had Washington protected. With satellites keeping an eye on foreign countries, two oceans and a passel of submarine & aircraft carriers.

Except for the part that, by treaty, said that you couldn't protect it with missile batteries. The ABM & Salt treaties.

Civilian hijackings were never a part of their charter.

So, while there were ZERO threats within missile range of Wasington, DC, there were hundreds of thousands of the military's REAL enemies right there: personal injury lawyers. Or have you not yet heard that "what goes up, must come down." With no exemption for anti-aircraft missiles or shells.

Tom

[tfk]

But the overwelming majority of professional pilots will tell you that the manouver supposedly carried out by Hanjour was extremely difficult and actually rather unlikely to succeed.

Question: where is the society for Pilots for debunking 9/11 truth?

.
I will assume from the unending concatenation of nonsense that you've never piloted a plane.

Your comment is precisely equivalent to saying that "the overwhelming majority of doctors will tell you that AID is unrelated to the HIV virus".

You CAN find a small group of doctors in the world who say this. A certain percent of that group MIGHT even believe it. For exactly the same reasons that pf911t believe their nonsense:

1. Conspiratorial paranoia
2. Incompetence
3. Trinket sales

And you can play exactly the same statistics game that you play with the pilots: "A tiny group of docs have publicly stated that AIDS & HIV are unrelated. The vast majority have NOT signed petitions or joined groups that publicly assert that the two ARE related." Because there is no reason to form a group to state the obvious.

But when you ask docs individually, they (to the 99.9 percentile) will tell you that "of course they are related".

So, your statement that "the overwhelming percent of pilots ..." and "where is the society of "Pilots for debunking 9/11 'truth' ?" is exactly as incorrect & specious as "the overwhelming percent of docs believe that AIDS & HIV are unrelated" and "Where is the society of 'docs FOR AIDS/HIV connection'?"

There are about 5 people that I've run across here that are pilots (including me). Not one, AFAIK, has expressed the belief that Hanjour couldn't do the job.

Don't you find that curious??

Or do you find it just inconvenient?

Tom