the Zeitgeist Movies: The Ultimate List of Why [Archive]

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Hourglassmemory

7th July 2009, 04:48 PM

On a thread in the Zeitgeist Movement forums, this question was asked:

“How did you find out about the movies and the movement?”

I came across things that I think will give you a basic idea of where the people are coming from. This is not a thread to make fun of people, and neither is it to make witty remarks about a particular statement.
It's to try and understand where these people are coming from. And what's involved in them getting into contact with these movies. It's to comment carefully and slowly. Please.

I also hope it gives you, the skeptic, who sometimes can be quite harsh and quick in assessing people, a perspective on the people who are attracted by these movies and what they say. I got quite a glimpse at the WHY people jump into these things.
I got such a view of how complicated all of these things are. The reasons why people come into contact with this...
Here are the short versions of, yes, ALL the answers.

-Heard from a friend, who heard from a friend. (Word of Mouth)
-Supporting Ron Paul, got interested in politics, 9/11 came into the picture, caught Zeitgeist
-An email of the last 10 minutes of the first movie. Then watched the whole thing
-Fellow at work. (Word of Mouth)
-Youtube
-Heard from a friend. Already familiar with social manipulation and sense of illusion.
-Heard about it from a person who said 9/11 was an inside job, ended up believing it after Zeitgeist 1
-found it through msn. Already familiar with the “data”, the movie just put it together.
-Watched Loose Change, and came across the first movie.
-Through Youtube comments
-Youtube
-Person from work
-Friend recommendation, due to similar views on religion
-Heard about the first movie from a person in a forum who said “watch this scary ****”
-From Jacque Fresco
-Already familiar with concepts such as power elite controlling the banks and thought there was something wrong with 9/11. The first movie came up shortly after that.
-while researching technocracy related topics
-Brother showed it
-through a George Carlin quote on youtube
-Ron Paul supporter, the video was on a site dedicated to the campaign
-Part of the 9/11 truth movement, heard a lot from Z1 from that
-At a friend’s house at a ‘smoking party’ and someone suggested “seeing something crazy”
-Heard of it from Chris Crocker
-Listened to Ayreon’s newest album, given the lyrics, with whom the individual identified with, looked for organizations focused on making a positive impact on the species, and found both movies.
-Watched “Future by design” and was aware of Fresco before finding out about both movies.
-Looking for interpretations of the movie “Fight Club”. Doubts about certain parts of it but still “REALLY enjoyed it”. Last part of Z1 very enlightening
-Heard from a friend about a great documentary about religion and 9/11. thought it was conspiracy movies, but watched it anyway. “Couldn’t believe” what he had just watched.
-Friend directed him to it. Nothing surprised him. Prior beliefs got confirmed.
-Just watches a lot of documentaries.
-Friend played Z2, made a lot of sense minus a few vague ideas.
-Heard from friend “movie about religion, 9/11 and the monetary system”
-Watched Z1, then 2012 enigma, future by design, what the bleep to we know and the secret. Blown away by all of them. Then watched Z2. The rest of the reply is focused on 2012 woo.
-Z1 from brother, Z2 from internet friend.
-Searching for documentaries, found Z1, was stunned, watched Z2.
-Found it through Reddit.com
-Daily internet search
-Long discussion on religion in class. Teacher suggested Z1. thought first part on religion really interesting
-Very “out there” in terms of ideology, therefore friends suggest ‘weird things’ due to his beliefs, Z1 just happened to be relevant.
-Watching “conspiracy stuff on youtube”. Comment on Z1 caught this eye. “great day”
-mechanic friend showed him Z1 right there at work. Watched Z2 when it came out
-“research on things of that nature”
-Found it while on a “daily scan of torrent site”
- Friend showed him Z1
-Heard it was popular, but watched Z2 first, then Z1. Thought it was the best order to watch them
-Heard about it long ago, found it while browsing.
-Asked a great teacher where he got his ideas, and quickly came in contact with the movies and had his “head blown off”.
-Childhood friend sent him as a birthday gift, only watched it 9 months later.
-by accident, looking for similar things. Still has a few issues with the concepts.
-through StumbleUpon(FireFox Toolbar). Very thrilled while watching Z1. Just waited for Z2
-Friend sent him Z1 in response to “FEMA coffins video he’d sent his friend”. Completely blown away. Felt inspired and excited
-Came Across Z1 on google video. Confirmed old thoughts
-Google Video
-Wanted to know why Z1 had gotten so big because of school’s kids reactions. “Hallelujah!” was his reaction. Z2 was from a friend
-By a friend. Blown away by Z1. First time of hearing about the NWO, “beginning of the journey”, but now focused on the solutions instead of the problem.
-Found Z1 from TvLinks. Parts 1 and 2 of Z1 already knew about. Didn’t know about the RBE part in Z2 and the third part in Z1.
-Saw it on a friend’s website. He told him it would change his life “and it did”.
-16 year old son showed it to her. “I'll never be able to ground him again. lol He has no idea how much it means to me that he knows me so well.”
-Recent MySpace friend had a blog in which she talked about Z1
-Saw it in a hip Hop Forum. “View of the world totally changed”
-Someone at school speaking how 9/11 was faked, Z1 was mentioned. “changed my life more than anything else ever has”
-Looking for futuristic building designs, and found Jacque Fresco. Saw ‘Future by Design’. Looked for more videos of Fresco, Z2 was one of them. Watch Z1. “A lot of things I cared about became irrelevant”
-Friend spoke about RFID chips and the North American Union. Watched a clip about it, found out it was from Z1. Watch z1 and Z2
-A friend told him it would change his life. To this day “still adding to my knowledge bank”
-Learned about it at Brave New Books in Austin Texas. Loved part 1 of Z1.
-Researching ‘the banking ponzi scheme’. Z1 was recommended in passing.
-looking through movies like “freedom to fascism” and “War on democracy”, then found Z1 through Demonoid, because people talked about it and wanted to know what it was. “was hooked when the Venus Project came up” Always imagined a better and science focused society.
-Found TVP website. “Not hard to agree with floating cities and machine induced unemployment.
-Watched Esoteric Agenda”. Z1 was included as a parallel video. Thought Z2 was much better because it offered solutions to problems he/she was already familiar with
-Twitter, via anarchist friend
-School of Economics(university, teacher showed part 3 of Z1
-found Z1 through Swedish site Tankafett and saw that it had a high score. Decided to watch “Best decision of my life”
-Found Z1 through other forums. “immediately grabbed my attention”. Z2 gave him the reasons why things “were all wrong”. Don’t know how much of it is true, but feels it’s truth, and it’s a reason
-moderated a shock video site called Blogwars. Z1 showed up
-Watched Esoteric Agenda. When Z2 was suggested, thought it was another loony movie. Was blown away.
-Watching Richard Dawkins stuff on Youtube, and Z1 was suggested to be a good movie for atheists. Enjoyed Z1, but Z2 knocked him off his feet. The more research he does the more comfortable he is with the idea of a society without government and money
-Watched Z2. Was skeptical, but slowly being convinced
-“Idiot little brother showed it to him” He owes his “stupid little brother” one.
-Friend gave Z1 to him, from the start “was mesmerized”. Totally pumped after watched part on 9/11, not a fan of Bush so “synced what I already knew”. Part 3 of Z1 “blew my mind away”
-Researching solutions for the broken government in the USA. Came Across TVP. Then found out about the movement
-friends always talking about it “hooked ever since”
-Looking for Astrology videos, the astrology part of Z1 shows up. Later looks up the whole of Z1
-Heard about it from sister, who heard about it from boyfriend
-Heard of Z1 from good old friend who lives off the grid and “was instantly hooked”. Thought 9/11 was just a conspiracy theory. Now more focused on solutions
-Interested because it was banned in the US
-Heard of it from his friend. The friend “has got lost in the ******** theories and now awaits an out of body experience”
-Looking for truths on the internet. Had a calling to find out what was really going on. Never liked the “You live you work and you die” reality. Finally found Z1 and cried because some parts are scary
-Heard it from friend’s Facebook account. Watched all 4 hours. Already knew the dots, but “was blown away by how Peter Joseph had connected the dots”
-Watched Z1. Confirmed prior beliefs. Literally cried after watching Z2. The solutions in Z2 “rejuvenated” him. “It was amazing”. Now “spreading information however I can”
-Found out that a movement was already acting upon beliefs he had been holding inside his head for years. Therefore joined
-Always knew something was wrong with the world, and with Z1 his quest for knowledge was unquenched. “Peter’s movies put feelings into words and pictures”.
-First heard about them while “reading Richard K Moore’s mailing list”
-Guy came to his door to try and make him change to another company that provided electricity and gas. Conversation went into money, and Z1 was recommended
-Watched Z1 on Youtube. Z1 and TVP was what “got me hooked”
-Saw it on a friends Dvd folder. Didn’t’ have titles or anything so didn’t continue watching it. Husband put it on the background of his studio because he liked the images, but then, 10 minutes in, they were riveted. Watched Z2 afterwards
-Heard about it from friends. Thought it was “going to be another conspiracy theory documentary” so didn’t watch Z1 right away. After watching Z1, wanted a sequel, then watched Z2 and was “BLOWN AWAY and so happy! I was not alone in my thinking about life”
-Watched Z2 and spoke about it to a bunch of people at school. Only one person “really grasped it and was serious about the movement”
-Heard it from uncle. Believes in it more than the uncle does. Constantly handing out the movies at school Always incorporates it into his assignments at school
-Heard about Z1 from a good friend because he wanted to see his reaction. “friend was religious and I was moving away from religion fast so we had interesting discussions”
-Friend showed first part. Always knew there was something wrong with religion. Watched Z2 later on “Hooked on this for life”
-His dealer recommended it to him. Following the movement ever since.
-through a forum with a thread titles Doesn’t it feel like there’s something wrong with e world?” it gave a link to TVP website. Then found Z2 wand watched it. Focuses on TVP
-Got it from his musician brother
-Friend showed him/her Z1. Shocked at all of it. especially part 3. Came Across “Money as debt” on Youtube and only watched Z2 much later “you just start to understand what’s going on”
-Family had already seen it. Saw Z1 at a friend’s place and was shocked at the Christ part of Z1
-Heard it from dad, but Uncle gave him “Big Earth Book” which talks about flaws in the system and solutions. Watched Z1 and Z2 later. Criticises 9/11 and the conspiracies for being there, because even though he does believe it, everyone calls him brainwashed at school
-brother told her
-Found the movie on a famous left-class website in China
-downloads torrents and always saw the movie up high on the lists. Out of curiosity watched it, then watched it two more times and since then has been looking into “the monetary system, the occult, symbolism, sociology and astro-theology”. “It’s like a disease with no cure” Its subjects are all I think about”. “It’s more than a movie, it’s what it means to be a human family”
-linked by a friend on msn
-Looking for moneyless economy on google, then found TVP website. Then watched Z1 while in conjunction with Zacharia S’s work. Then found Z2
-Saw Z2 on torrents. He had “finally found something he could truly believe in”
-since high school he felt that “what really holds power in this world is consciousness”. Found clips on Youtube, and since then he “knows what really matters”
-Heard about the movies on a tv show
-looking through the net for “illegal stuff” and found a link called “What Youtube doesn’t want you to see”, which was a clip from Z2. Then watched Z1 and Z2 and “Boom, fell down the rabbit hole as they say”
-Link from friend who didn’t watch it. “I was converted to the RBE” and “life has not been the same since”
-heard about the movies through a friend. Watched Z2 first, then looked for Z1. ERad Eckhart Tolle’s “A New Earth and soon found out about the Zeitgeist movement for a RBE
-Downloaded but didn’t watch them. Then after some friends told him to watch them, he watched both in one night
-friend spoke about it while waiting for a bus
-links in forums
-Brother recommended Z1. Since then keeps up to date, and follows the movement
-friends of his brother told him to look it up. “it took me 6 months to completely change the way I look at the world
-Watched “The Story of Stuff” as recommended by friends. Then found a presentation on “Money and Law”. Showed it to a friend who suggested Z1. Then found out about Z2, watched it, found the movement “which altered my life”. Since then can “only think of Jacque’s dream. Hope we don’t fail”
-Trying to find out when the next Bildeberg meeting was going to happen and the zeitgeist movement popped up. Disagrees with some things
-Watched part 1 of Z1, and got intrigued, watched more clips on youtube. Since then “Very eager to learn”.
-Religion and politics and social issues always interested him. When in Bali in a yaga/music retreat, the owner who was Australian asked him if he liked religion and 9/11. Then he watched Z1. then watched Z2 and it “was one of the most brilliant docs ever”. It also opened him to people like George Carlin Carl Sagan krishnamurti and his life has been “dramatically changed”.
- From Swedish band’s website watched Z1. “was shocked in a good way”. “I wanted to change the world so I joined as soon as possible”
-Friend said to “just watch it”. “Life changed forever”. “My eyes were opened to state terrorism”

I have to say that after going through all of these as I was transcribing them, the thing that sticks with me the most is how people get pumped for more. If you've read through them all, you know what I'm talking about.
I think the skeptical community is not giving its due attention to this thing. The Zeitgeist Movement. Because, even though this isn't as 'out there on the streets' as the 9/11 truth movement, it WILL be.

And this also came to my mind A LOT of times.
I think the sceptical movement seriously needs an organized effort of movie makers, so there can be 3 hour movies on several subjects out there. things like "The Skeptologists" are so furiously needed that it's not even funny. I'm not talking about "Bill Nye the Science Guy" kind of shows, but critical thinking shows. Proper skeptical shows. Even more serious than "Penn and Teller's ********"
Because I believe those things would have an incredible, incredible impact.
Imagine Dawkins’ documentaries, but focused on everything, from religion to woo to conspiracies, all in one mega documentary HOURS long. To show people how it’s all pretty much connected by the same ways of thinking. Do you realise the giant blow that would be to people, even the people you've just read through?
An introduction into scepticism would also be extremely powerful. "Here Be Dragons" is great, don't get me wrong but...MORE
I have to say that 20 minute videos are not enough. These things need to be Huge undertakings. and if a kid in his basement with experience with video and music can do things like the Zeitgeist movies...and can make people react in this way, what is stopping the nerds and the people with Phd’s and science enthusiasts from coming together and also make big ass movies like these?

I also sense that people are led to think things that, sure, could be reasonable conclusions about the way society operates, that it’s not the best thing in the world, but they’re led to those thoughts by completely misguided and misinformed paths.
I just shake my head and pity the people who are “blown away” but then end up with these distorted views of reality. It truly is saddening.
I can only hope that the skeptical community grows bigger and bigger and bigger (I do my own part. I do what these people do, but focused on skepticism) and starts doing things like this too. I think that we’re not going to get there with podcasts and blogs alone. Neither with just “debunking videos”. There needs to be more efforts like “Here be Dragons”…but bigger.
Imagine all these people saying all of that that you’ve just read, but for a movie about critical thinking and science and skepticism. I want you guys to actually go through some of them and IMAGINE those being comments on a supposed long movie on skepticism.
I know people would find this illogical and irrational (like an atheist movement), but isn't it possible that it would be things like a Skeptical Movement of sorts that could be very powerful and motivate people to do extreme things and big projects, because then they find a graspable cause to fight for? I know it's not "a rational thing to propose", but aren't skeptical humans still...just humans? Isn't that what these movements grasp better than us? they actually do tickle the brains of people better than us skeptics.
I know "the most plausible truth" is not necessarily the most exciting. But why shouldn't it be, in movies like Zeitgeist?
Imagine an overview of society, but from the actually rational and scientifically literate Skeptic’s point of view.

dudalb

7th July 2009, 04:58 PM

Hourglassmemory

7th July 2009, 05:05 PM

Is that really all you have to say?

I don't understand if you're talking to me or to "them"...
I agree with what you say. And I know how frustrating it is seeing the they're led to believe perhaps, rational things (like christianity is bull), but thanks to completely distorted views of reality.
I agree with you!! And I talk a bit about that in my original post here.

dudalb

7th July 2009, 05:30 PM

I hate to say this, but Zeitgeist has been torn to shreads around here time and time again. You are really not bringing anything new to the table.

LightinDarkness

7th July 2009, 05:35 PM

-Long discussion on religion in class. Teacher suggested Z1. thought first part on religion really interesting.

Oh my. This is deeply, deeply disturbing. Can you pull up the full details of this post? I hope to god that we don't have college professors or TAs propagandizing the undergraduate masses out there.

Edit: I also see another one where they claim a professor showed them parts of it. This is really bad - Z fails the basic tests of logic and you don't have to be an expert on conspiracy theory propaganda to know presenting it as truth to gullible undergraduates is a bad idea.

What this really boils down to is people want something to Believe in. Zeitgeist is that for conspiracy theorists - a statement of faith and dogma. A religion that bashes other religions, thus being morally and ethically superior. This is why Z propaganda works so well. It unifies CTers into one gigantic conspiracy so that they can speak in one voice. A church for the delusional and paranoid.

Zeitgeist is a powerful drug for those already walking down the path of delusional thinking. It tells them that - no, they are not responsible for their problems. Its not their fault. The evil, horrible Elite and its minion the Federal Reserve works to conspire against them. It presents the ultimate Satan for the CTers to crusade against.

1337m4n

7th July 2009, 05:46 PM

What is sad is some people, who are intelligent enough that they should have known better, have praised Zeitgeist because "it shows what a fraud Christianity is".
The problem is the tripe that Zeigeist is peddling in the first third is nonsense worse then anything that standard Christianity has tried to sell us. If you don't like Christianity, fine, but don't support an even bigger bunch of crapola on the grounds it helps discredit Christanity.

It's even worse than that, because Zeitgeist's attacks against Christianity aren't even true.

There are plenty of true reasons to dislike Christianity. To think that someone could hate Christianity so much, they would support false reasons against it, boggles the mind.

Hourglassmemory

7th July 2009, 06:33 PM

I hate to say this, but Zeitgeist has been torn to shreads around here time and time again. You are really not bringing anything new to the table.

Lol I have to say that you're just missing the point I intended for the thread.

I agree with you that it's been torn to shreds. But I'm talking about the people stuck in there!
I don't think that's something you just shrug away and wipe your feet on.
I'm not trying to show how much support it has, as if I was trying to convince you people to look at it.

Hourglassmemory

7th July 2009, 06:35 PM

Oh my. This is deeply, deeply disturbing. Can you pull up the full details of this post? I hope to god that we don't have college professors or TAs propagandizing the undergraduate masses out there.

Edit: I also see another one where they claim a professor showed them parts of it. This is really bad - Z fails the basic tests of logic and you don't have to be an expert on conspiracy theory propaganda to know presenting it as truth to gullible undergraduates is a bad idea.

What this really boils down to is people want something to Believe in. Zeitgeist is that for conspiracy theorists - a statement of faith and dogma. A religion that bashes other religions, thus being morally and ethically superior. This is why Z propaganda works so well. It unifies CTers into one gigantic conspiracy so that they can speak in one voice. A church for the delusional and paranoid.

Zeitgeist is a powerful drug for those already walking down the path of delusional thinking. It tells them that - no, they are not responsible for their problems. Its not their fault. The evil, horrible Elite and its minion the Federal Reserve works to conspire against them. It presents the ultimate Satan for the CTers to crusade against.

Thank you! That's the sort of comment I was expecting!
As for the actual post, if I recall correctly the person did not go into much detail at all. it's pretyt much what I give there but said with a more words, though they do not enlighten deeper on that matter of the teacher.

dudalb

7th July 2009, 07:09 PM

It's even worse than that, because Zeitgeist's attacks against Christianity aren't even true.

There are plenty of true reasons to dislike Christianity. To think that someone could hate Christianity so much, they would support false reasons against it, boggles the mind.

I think it is a "Ends Justifies The Means" kind of thing.

SmartyPants

8th July 2009, 11:45 PM

I think it is a "Ends Justifies The Means" kind of thing.

I think you're probably right. As a grad assistant a couple years, one of my collegues brought Zeitgeist to my attention (he didn't believe a word of it, but thought I should watch it since it was gaining traction and because he knew it would drive me crazy). It took me awhile to get around to it just because I felt it was going to be waste of time, which it was. Anyway, sure enough, about 6 months later an acquaintance of mine posts on my facebook wall, saying that I NEED to see this movie, it'll change your life, your critical thinking habits, etc...

I, of course, asked what in the movie could possibly do any of that. Knowing that this was kind of gullible person, but a "new" atheist, I wasn't expecting any surprises. Part II she was skeptical about (9/11 junk), part III just gave her b.s reasons to do something nobody wants to do (pay taxes), and part I was the Christianity lie where she was the most enthusiastic.

Like I say, she was a new atheist (still is, I guess), and anything attacking Christianity would, in her mind, help defeat it and promote "enlightened" atheists and an atheist culture...at least that was my interpretation. I didn't bother to get into it with her, except to say that anything based on lies isn't going to enlighten anyone. And besides, there are plenty of other rational arguments against Christianity (which, in her mind, equals atheism).

Anyway, point being is that I think the Zeitgeist garbage justifies the means even more so for especially enthusiastic and fervid born-again atheists. In fact, I'd go as far as to say that it's designed to infect a certain audience, typically those who take pride in the belief that being a dissident automatically infers healthy skepticism and polished critical thinking skills.

MG1962

9th July 2009, 12:04 AM

I noticed with great annoyance that during the latest Transformers film. The Belt stars of Orion were described as the three kings.

no no no no!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

CDRM

9th July 2009, 02:04 PM

-Asked a great teacher where he got his ideas, and quickly came in contact with the movies and had his “head blown off”
-School of Economics(university, teacher showed part 3 of Z1

So very, very, unfourtunate.:(

Hourglassmemory

9th July 2009, 04:18 PM

Anyway, point being is that I think the Zeitgeist garbage justifies the means even more so for especially enthusiastic and fervid born-again atheists. In fact, I'd go as far as to say that it's designed to infect a certain audience, typically those who take pride in the belief that being a dissident automatically infers healthy skepticism and polished critical thinking skills.
I think you're spot on there.
Many seem to act as if 'disagreeing', being counter-"something", means sophistication of thought.
Although it is an understandable and perhaps innocent assumption many make. If you are to criticise, you probably have reasons to do so.
The problem is that many times with people like these, the reasoning might actually be rational, but the data their rationality works with just leads them to really unfortunate and cross-eyed conclusions.

Sunray Breaker

10th July 2009, 05:00 PM

I know "the most plausible truth" is not necessarily the most exciting. But why shouldn't it be, in movies like Zeitgeist?
Imagine an overview of society, but from the actually rational and scientifically literate Skeptic’s point of view.

YES, YES, YES!!! This is the boggest frustration I have with the skeptic folks. I love you guys, but we should be making JREF just as much a house hold name as Alex Jones.

If you think about it, the skeptic community (at least among the target demographic of 18-25) is seriously low in numbers compared to ZM and Twoofer movements.

I for one would fully support an in depth film that dissects each of these movements and proposes some new ideas to give people a little bit of hope.

I'll make the damn movie if I have to!!! But you guys really need to get on the ball. Screw Loose Change was a great start, and then you guys just sorta stopped and went back to forums...

We "born again skeptics" (aka ex-truthers) need your help!!! To save the others from adding any sort of mass numbers to these potentially dangerous movements(in regards to twoofers at least).

T.A.M.

10th July 2009, 05:08 PM

YES, YES, YES!!! This is the boggest frustration I have with the skeptic folks. I love you guys, but we should be making JREF just as much a house hold name as Alex Jones.

If you think about it, the skeptic community (at least among the target demographic of 18-25) is seriously low in numbers compared to ZM and Twoofer movements.

I for one would fully support an in depth film that dissects each of these movements and proposes some new ideas to give people a little bit of hope.

I'll make the damn movie if I have to!!! But you guys really need to get on the ball. Screw Loose Change was a great start, and then you guys just sorta stopped and went back to forums...

We "born again skeptics" (aka ex-truthers) need your help!!! To save the others from adding any sort of mass numbers to these potentially dangerous movements(in regards to twoofers at least).

The skeptic movement in the demographic you mention, is low for a number of reasons, the least of which is not the fact that most men in that age group are so full of vitriol, of vinegar, of anger with the machine, that they are drawn to Z1 and "truth" like moths to a flame. You will not change that through any degree of promotion of JREF, as much as I wish you could.

The "truth" movement, really, is fading into trivial oblivion. In a few more years it will sit on a shelf in between JFK and Moon Hoax. While I am pleased to hear you and others have left their ranks, they are not really enough of a threat in 2009 to warrant much more. I appreciate your varied opinion on this.

TAM:)

Brainster

11th July 2009, 05:18 PM

If you really want to do something about this, I suggest a subtitled version of Zeitgeist, much as was done by TheDoc for 9-11 Mysteries (became Screw 9-11 Mysteries) or by Markyx for Loose Change (became Screw Loose Change the movie). Look around you should be able to find these fairly easily. Those two debunking films were very popular, so they did seem to fill a need.

I saw the first iteration of Zeitgeist, when Peter David was still pronouncing Colonel as "Cologne-El". Made it a little hard for me to take him seriously.

:D

Glockjaw

11th July 2009, 09:51 PM

Brainster

11th July 2009, 11:19 PM

Here I also wanted to see what general debunkers say about Zeitgeist and its information. Its interesting to see that there are many athiests and yet they are still somewhat offended by the Christian part of Zeitgeist. I, myself, would say I believe in God but God to me is very simple. God is the answer to the question of how we got something from nothing. The way God govern's the universe is simply through the 4 fundamental forces and their interactions with matter. The rest is cause and effect. Its a broad view that is open to interpretation.

There are some extremely long threads on Zeitgeist (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=128702) around here; if you think this is the first time we have encountered the movie you are wrong.

LightinDarkness

11th July 2009, 11:24 PM

Hello, short-time lurker, first time poster here. I've been reading all the debunkings on this site related to 9/11 for a while now because after I saw Zeitgeist I wanted all the information. Now, I thoroughly believe that the towers were not a controlled demolition but I don't doubt that the government was involved in the plot.

Well, thats kind of sad. I am happy you were able to see the evidence and understand there was no demolition of the towers. There is also absolutely no evidence the government was involved in the terrorist attacks.

Here I also wanted to see what general debunkers say about Zeitgeist and its information. Its interesting to see that there are many athiests and yet they are still somewhat offended by the Christian part of Zeitgeist. I, myself, would say I believe in God but God to me is very simple. God is the answer to the question of how we got something from nothing. The way God govern's the universe is simply through the 4 fundamental forces and their interactions with matter. The rest is cause and effect. Its a broad view that is open to interpretation.

Then you really didn't read the threads debunking ZP and ZA. The facts and evidence show that the claims made by ZP against Christianity are false. Lies. Demonstrably not true. There are plenty of claims based in facts and reasoned analysis that may be made against Christianity as with all religions, but none of these were presented by ZP or ZA. No one was "offended" by what ZP presented, atheists on the board were simply notating that the claims it made were not true.

Now, it seems I'm off topic but what I wanted to say was that Zeitgeist helped me to see this.

This is a testament to Zeitgeist's qualities as a tool of conspiracy religion.

I understand the movie may have some baseless claims along with tons of shock value, but the main idea is there. All religions have similarities and that is what should be appreciated as opposed to the myths that are taken literally. Organized religion is just an excuse to shoulder the blame somewhere else. To think people would rather not be in control of their destiny thinking some omniscient God cares whether they masturbate, lol.

Actually, the purpose of Zeitgeist's claims are to lure in Atheists who are in the immature stage of "rage against religion". It worked.

Zeitgeist in general, especially the second one, Zeitgeist: Addendum, really don't mean to rag on people for their beliefs but simply show them how simple life can really be.

Except it failed to do that on every level when examined critically.

They really address in the second one the problem with the profit incentive. Would you deny that technology today is only upgraded with very few new things at a time over a long period of time. And that said technology is applied long after its been discovered? Of course some people do it for the benefit of mankind but the fact of the matter is, mankind's benefit isn't as profitable.

You must not have read the 50 page thread we already had about this, because we just had someone pull out these exact same claims. To his immense credit he understood that the Venus Project was a type of communist Utopian (in theory)/anarchist (in practice) propaganda and has embraced critical thinking and reason.

Zeitgiest propaganda tells its adherents that there is something inherently wrong with the profit incentive. It thrives on attracting disaffected young people who are angry that people have more than them. Yet, such profit incentives have been responsible for all the technology we see today.

It is proven that we have the technology to feed the whole world despite its major over population. We won't do that though because its not profitable, in fact its more profitable for the farmers to not farm at some point because the government will pay them to induce scarcity.

Actually, as a matter of fact it is not proven. Scarcity isn't some fake concept like VP propaganda tells you. Its real. Its material. There are only so many resources to go around. We don't feed the world because it isn't possible to do so.

Do you think we still need oil? I'll admit gas for planes and rockets I guess would still need oil at this point but cars? It is NOT more costly to build an electric car that runs efficiently it is only costly because the oil companies hold the patent. Oil is outdated.

There is no proof for this. Oil is fine, it works fine. What you fail to see is that, thanks to the profit motive, if any new technology came out for cars that would make them better than gasoline based vehicles they would immediately be on the market because there would be enormous amounts of money made in being the first to do bring such items to the marketplace.

Zeitgeist poses the solution to this. It shows that we do have the technology to become a better society that doesn't rely on money because everything will be available in abundance. We eliminate the profit incentive and replace it with a strict desire to benefit mankind. How do we do this? Education.

Actually, it doesn't propose any solution. It proposes lots of problem. It tells us by magic robots will take over our world but not how or why, it tells us that we will magically all be provided for but again not how or why. It tells us there will be no governments or authority but does not tell us what happens when someone murders someone else. What are you going to do, punish them by lecturing them about how they should be desiring to benefit mankind?

Zeitgeist Addendum advocates the use of the Scientific Method to govern the more important questions in life.

I am beginning to think the Zeitgeist faithful have talking points. As we've debunked in other threads, ZA is the very opposite of the scientific method.

I have been reading for a couple weeks and know that you all are a very intelligent lot but are quick to poke at someone for posting something not to their liking. I only hope this doesn't offend anyone and that it induces interesting responses. I don't know if I made any outrageous claims that can't be cited easily but if you guys request evidence I'll find some.

No one pokes fun at anything. We do what JREF advocates - using critical thought, logic, and reason to analyze things. Zeitgeist fails against all of those.

grandthefttoaster

11th July 2009, 11:58 PM

The reason people here hate that movie is because all of the facts in it are distorted or lies. For example the North American Union and the Amero were only thought up by a guy who was just presenting it as an idea, but the movie says that the government is really going to do this. I hope that someday humans can create solutions to many of the world's problems such as pollution, overpolulation, starvation, ect. However, I don't think we can do this by watching some movie that tells people not to vote or join the military, or by listening to a man whose plan for the future consists of drawing spaceships and mag-lev's.

And on the religion stuff, I am an atheist/agnostic because I care about the truth, and I think that the claims made by religions just aren't true. However, the "solar jesus" crap isn't true either. There are real historians who have reason to question the bible, but very few support the idea that jesus is based on astrology. If you research where these ideas come from, you will see that it is usually from people who aren't real historians, or from outdated sources of information.

grandthefttoaster

12th July 2009, 12:28 AM

I for one would fully support an in depth film that dissects each of these movements and proposes some new ideas to give people a little bit of hope.

We "born again skeptics" (aka ex-truthers) need your help!!! To save the others from adding any sort of mass numbers to these potentially dangerous movements(in regards to twoofers at least).

I think it would be pretty cool if someone made a movie with the same "style" as Zeitgeist, where there are three segments that discuss different problems, only with real information not lies. Maybe one part could be about conspiracies, and would show how people like Alex Jones are all wrong, and there is no NWO that wants to put chips in you. Then another part could examine the claims of the "end times" people who believe in the antichrist garbage. The third part could be about something else, I don't know what. But I think it is important to fight back aganst fear mongers like the two groups I mentioned.

Glockjaw

12th July 2009, 08:41 AM

Well, I responded to your post but of course I linked to something not on this site and when it let me know that it also deleted my post.

Anywayyyyyyyyy, Lightindarkness, you really didn't make any based claims yourself in response to me.

Actually, the purpose of Zeitgeist's claims are to lure in Atheists who are in the immature stage of "rage against religion". It worked.
Did you read what I wrote about religion? I honestly don't care who believes in what. I don't need an amendment to remind me of that either lol.

Yet, such profit incentives have been responsible for all the technology we see today.

Might I refer you to Thomas Edison and Nikola Tesla?
The profit incentive is only responsible for creating technology that will break over a certain amount of time so people can come back and buy it again!

There is no proof for this. Oil is fine, it works fine. What you fail to see is that, thanks to the profit motive, if any new technology came out for cars that would make them better than gasoline based vehicles they would immediately be on the market because there would be enormous amounts of money made in being the first to do bring such items to the marketplace.

Oil is outdated. We can utilize enough electricity to do anything oil can do. I am not well-rehearsed on Jet engines and bigger vehicle engines though but cars, we definitely don't need oil. The electric car is out but its very expensive. No surprise there though, even if it is cheaper to make than a car that runs on gas. When you have the profit incentive in place, no one cares how to BENEFIT mankind but rather how to PERCEIVE to benefit mankind. Its very simple to see, I thought.

No one pokes fun at anything. We do what JREF advocates - using critical thought, logic, and reason to analyze things. Zeitgeist fails against all of those.

I thought that's exactly what Zeitgeist did. Based on the logic the movie presented, factual or not, it used reason and critical thought to assess the logic. Now clearly you disagree with what the movie was saying as a whole but I disagree that it 'fails against all of those'.

thought_fugitive

12th July 2009, 12:11 PM

Oil is outdated. We can utilize enough electricity to do anything oil can do. I am not well-rehearsed on Jet engines and bigger vehicle engines though but cars, we definitely don't need oil. The electric car is out but its very expensive. No surprise there though, even if it is cheaper to make than a car that runs on gas. When you have the profit incentive in place, no one cares how to BENEFIT mankind but rather how to PERCEIVE to benefit mankind. Its very simple to see, I thought.

As if electricity is its own resource?

Have you done any research on the ideas presented in these films? The electric car is very expensive because the technology required to make it is currently very expensive. If it wasn't, it would be a considerably larger industry, but even then it wouldn't be intrinsically beneficial to mankind since much of the electricity used to power those electric cars would still create greenhouse emissions.

LightinDarkness

12th July 2009, 02:36 PM

Well, I responded to your post but of course I linked to something not on this site and when it let me know that it also deleted my post.

Its for the better. Youtube videos are not research.

Anywayyyyyyyyy, Lightindarkness, you really didn't make any based claims yourself in response to me.

What? I didn't make any based claims? What does this mean?

Did you read what I wrote about religion? I honestly don't care who believes in what. I don't need an amendment to remind me of that either lol.

Yep, and it the entire point. Zeitgeist demands people people be militant atheists based on lies, not reason or logic. This also isn't how a free society works. In a free society, people are free to believe in whatever they want.

Might I refer you to Thomas Edison and Nikola Tesla?
The profit incentive is only responsible for creating technology that will break over a certain amount of time so people can come back and buy it again!

Please check the facts, Edison had quite a fortune and Telsa did not work for free. And besides, even if both of them were Utopian communists and just wanted to better the world, in contrast to them we have millions of people who have bettered the world because of profit. The profit incentive is responsible for creating all technology. Any technology which is better would also be brought by the profit incentive. But even with the profit incentive, VP's magical robots have no emerged.

Oil is outdated. We can utilize enough electricity to do anything oil can do. I am not well-rehearsed on Jet engines and bigger vehicle engines though but cars, we definitely don't need oil. The electric car is out but its very expensive. No surprise there though, even if it is cheaper to make than a car that runs on gas. When you have the profit incentive in place, no one cares how to BENEFIT mankind but rather how to PERCEIVE to benefit mankind. Its very simple to see, I thought.

It isn't simple to see because it isn't reality. Its Zeitgeist propaganda. Oil works just fine, and there is more than enough of it to go around. Despite hysterical CT claims of peak oil since the 1980s we haven't gotten there nor will we be there for some time. There is no evidence that cars don't need oil. Just because cars can be made with minimal use of oil does not mean its the optimal solution - such cars cost lots of money because they use other SCARCE RESOURCES and they use chemicals and toxins that are just as "harmful" to the environment.

Electric cars are not benefiting mankind. Thats VP propaganda again.

Again, the reality is that if electric cars were the answer VP propaganda has told you they were they'd already be the entire car fleet. There would be so much money to be made in the electric car business and in the business of replacing electric car parts. No one has done it because not only are electric cars not at a stage where they are better than traditional cars, most people just don't want one.

I thought that's exactly what Zeitgeist did. Based on the logic the movie presented, factual or not, it used reason and critical thought to assess the logic. Now clearly you disagree with what the movie was saying as a whole but I disagree that it 'fails against all of those'.

Then you really didn't watch it. Zeitgeist is the anti-science. A movie of faith, conspiracy religion, and hysterical propaganda. Zeitgeist proposes a world that fails each and every test of logic, critical thinking, and the scientific method.

I will again ask you to show how it does not by answering one simple question that Zeitgeist propagandists never can answer: What happens when someone murders someone in Zeitgeist's world? What will you do? You can't hold a trial or call the police. Such institutions do not exist by design.

Glockjaw

12th July 2009, 03:04 PM

Glockjaw

12th July 2009, 03:11 PM

Have you done any research on the ideas presented in these films? The electric car is very expensive because the technology required to make it is currently very expensive. If it wasn't, it would be a considerably larger industry, but even then it wouldn't be intrinsically beneficial to mankind since much of the electricity used to power those electric cars would still create greenhouse emissions.

So an electric car isn't as beneficial to mankind as gas-powered cars? I still think that the electric car is all around better in the long run. Electricity is much more efficient than oil. Electricity itself should be provided by the government at this point. Its so easy with all the different methods of creating it. Why is half the United States still being powered by coal when we have geothermal, wind, tidal, and wave power? If you're really worried about greenhouse emissions, an electric car is the least of your worries.

LightinDarkness

12th July 2009, 03:35 PM

I admit, as I was watching the movie I wondered the same about murder. I believe that it will still exist even if the future reflects what the Venus Project had in mind. If someone is murdered then I'm sure since people will be free to not work all the time they will have time to vote on certain matters. It might be more central to the true communist intention achieved by global communication. Or perhaps it will be settled amongst the community. It will not be one human beings power over another, but rather the community's power to protect itself.

And here for all to see is why Zeitgeist fails before it even begins. Now crimes will be decided by a international version of American Idol, apparently, where we all get to vote on whether someone is guilty. Gone are the sciences of forensics or evidence collection, gone is the professionalization of justice and the ensuring that juries are picked in a manner that ensures fair treatment. Instead we shall all vote.

But even this horrible solution further illustrates the problems with Zeitgeist propaganda. Vote on what, exactly? You can't vote to do anything to the accused because you have no authority to do so. There is nothing which gives you legitimate authority in existence. And what if, while were all voting and having an American Idol contest over whether or not someone murdered someone else, the murderer goes around and kills more people? You can't hold the person - there is no institution to do so.

And so at the very face of it Zeitgeist fails in the most spectacular manner. It is a communist society which cannot even figure out how to deal with basic things like crime.

I am a firm believer in the death penalty for certain crimes and in saying so I hope I get the death penalty if I ever commit a crime worthy of it so I'm not a hypocrite in saying this.

Uh-oh. But you see, there can be no death penalty in Zeitgeist. The death penalty requires a that someone have authority and be granted the legitimate use of coercion - which governments have in the real world - that WILL NOT EXIST IN YOUR FANTASY WORLD. I guess you could go up and shoot them in retribution, but that would be anarchy, not justice.

I don't know exactly what you mean by this? Would it be safe to say Isaac Newton, by these standards, didn't contribute anything of material as well?

It would also be safe to say that Issac Newton was sponsored. We can play this game all day. For every 1 name you can find where you think someone worked towards Zeitgeist communist ideal, I can name 100 that were motivated by profit that did wonderful things. Bill Gates revolutionized the world more than anyone you've name so far, and he became the richest man because of it (profit motive). Now, he has one of the largest foundations in the world, doing great things that you could never dream of accomplishing by sitting there and raging against the machine. Fully motivated by profit, he changed the world for the better and continues to do great things. Warren Buffet was motivated completely by profit. He amassed more money that you can imagine. And 95% of his huge estate is going to charity upon his death, improving the lives for countless people - because of profit.

Thank goodness for profit.

I think anyone who sees Zeitgeist understands it isn't reality. No one is able to see the future. You could go back 50 years and no one would have expected what we see today. The fact is, everyone knows it isn't reality but applying simple logic to the situation as opposed to trying to apply logic to every detail, shows that perhaps not making human beings pay something to have to live, is the next step in evolution (given we don't die in nuclear explosion of course).

No, people who watch it understand this is reality. Trying apply to logic to every detail is called critical thinking - something which Zeitgeist roundly rejects. No one has to pay anything to live, if you so choose. It certainly isn't the next step in evolution - in fact, the communist utopia would be 10 steps backwards.

Zeitgeist does not tell anyone to believe in anything but a future that's best for the generations to come. It looks down on Christianity but not for what it believes, but how it has forced itself into our history and ruining some wonderful aspects of culture. No one can question your belief in God because that's ignorant. It is not ignorant, however, to question someone's belief in stories relating that their idea of God is somehow better than yours. I know it looks fantastical but can you tell me what the meaning of life is? I have come to the conclusion that essentially life is about a)reproducing and b) making a better/safer world for your offspring.

No, it tells a future that is best for those who are enraged that people have more than them, that they live in a world where you have to work to get what you want. It is a future for those who want everything to be given to them and work for nothing.

It looks down on Christianity because its attracting young rage against the machine people who think bashing Christianity is popular. It doesn't matter what the meaning of life is, Z1's propaganda on religion has been debunked.

Anything else is just detail and pure speculation. That's where logic has led me.

You are not using logic.

And the link I was going to post by the way was just to Tesla motors so you could see the nice new fancy electric car lol.

The Telsa motors who can't get a material presence in the market despite their wonderful product? Thanks for proving me to be correct.

What you fail to see though, is how as we technologically advance we will decline with the monetary system.

There is no proof for this, and in fact all evidence says the opposite - with the decline of the monetary system we will advance less and less until we have the Dark Ages II.

Machines replace humans all the time in doing work, and they should because its more efficient and cost-effective. But then the unemployment rate goes up and people starve because they can't afford to pay for necessities that could literally be made readily available to them. Just think how the world would be if everyone replaced the 'profit incentive' with 'the benefit of mankind'. Now, it sounds impossible, but just because its hard doesn't mean its impossible. It most certainly is in this generation though. I also understand that it sounds stupid to you and illogical because there will always be someone who is greedy enough to f**k everything up. But, if we have the proper education, and make it so there is nothing to gain from doing bad things like lying, stealing, cheating etc. Then eventually it could go away.

These are standard Z1 and ZA propaganda talking points and we have debunked them all before. There is no magical robot that will replace magically the work that needs to be done for society to step forward. No one will design, repair, or upgrade such robots - even if they were to exist - if they know they get nothing out of it except a hippie high five.

It fails. It doesn't work. It never will. Education will work against you. It will only show people through logic and reason what a failure Z1 is. Of course by education you probably mean "Zeitgeist propaganda brainwashing", and not a real education. In fact, were we to do a proper scientific study on this we would find a direct reverse correlation between education and Zeitgeist support. The more education and exposure one has to logic, critical thinking, and the scientific method the more likely you will be to oppose Zeitgeist. I wonder why Zeitgeist's leaders do not fund such a study with all the tens of thousands they have amassed from young revolutionists like yourself? Because they know the results. Heres a hint: Zeitgeist leaders are in it for the money.

A world without a profit incentive is horrifying. A new dark age, where no one does anything. Anarchy rules.

The fact is, we're not as free as we could be. We trade our liberties for security. No one can really value a human life when they already value the dollar too much.

Wrong. We wouldn't be free under Z1, we'd have anarchy. We don't trade our liberties for anything, but being under government means I can't go out and commit mass murder without consequence like I could in the Venus Project world. Perhaps you like a world like that, 99.99% of society does not.

The thing is the only person putting a value on human life is you. You value it at $0 because you wish to create a world of anarchy where no human life is respected.

LightinDarkness

12th July 2009, 03:36 PM

So an electric car isn't as beneficial to mankind as gas-powered cars? I still think that the electric car is all around better in the long run. Electricity is much more efficient than oil. Electricity itself should be provided by the government at this point. Its so easy with all the different methods of creating it. Why is half the United States still being powered by coal when we have geothermal, wind, tidal, and wave power? If you're really worried about greenhouse emissions, an electric car is the least of your worries.

Not only is there no evidence for any of this, I love how he proposes a government solution while pushing the "rage against the man" talking points of Z1.

You really are young, aren't you? The government has run electricity before. It was a total disaster several times over.

grandthefttoaster

12th July 2009, 03:44 PM

What you fail to see though, is how as we technologically advance we will decline with the monetary system. Machines replace humans all the time in doing work, and they should because its more efficient and cost-effective. But then the unemployment rate goes up and people starve because they can't afford to pay for necessities that could literally be made readily available to them. Just think how the world would be if everyone replaced the 'profit incentive' with 'the benefit of mankind'. Now, it sounds impossible, but just because its hard doesn't mean its impossible. It most certainly is in this generation though. I also understand that it sounds stupid to you and illogical because there will always be someone who is greedy enough to f**k everything up. But, if we have the proper education, and make it so there is nothing to gain from doing bad things like lying, stealing, cheating etc. Then eventually it could go away.

The fact is, we're not as free as we could be. We trade our liberties for security. No one can really value a human life when they already value the dollar too much.

But people will always have something to gain by stealing. What are you going to do, make it so that everyone has the same kind of house and car and possessions so eveyone is equal? And even then there will be someone who wants two cars instead of one.

Also, if the evil who want to put chips inside of people exist, then won't they be able to stop your movement?

Glockjaw

12th July 2009, 04:27 PM

You are not using logic.
Why did you take that out of context to use it against me? I was using that in reference to life.

Bill Gates revolutionized the world more than anyone you've name so far, and he became the richest man because of it (profit motive).
Bill Gates also funds eugenics projects. Just goes to show he's not an all around great guy.

Now crimes will be decided by a international version of American Idol, apparently, where we all get to vote on whether someone is guilty.

I guess I should have elaborated? Lol. I guess Democracy=American Idol. But, since the society will be far technologically integrated at this time, facts of the case will be analyzed objectively and something will be done according to the evidence? I believe there will still be a justice system to an extent but it will be understood to only have the power we allow it to have as most things are in reality. Are all the kinks worked out? No, I admitted that already but its a step.

It looks down on Christianity because its attracting young rage against the machine people who think bashing Christianity is popular.

This is your opinion of it. Apparently, this opinion wasn't derived from reading what I had to say about Christianity because I don't feel that bashing it is in any way 'popular.' In fact, its way more popular to be a Christian it seems. Life is nice and black and white for them.

These are standard Z1 and ZA propaganda talking points and we have debunked them all before. There is no magical robot that will replace magically the work that needs to be done for society to step forward.

You're just trying to belittle the idea by saying 'magical robot.' But yes, machines can take the place of humans in many instances and the business will remain if not become more so efficient. We need people to do jobs that only people can do. Education? Why are teachers so dramatically underpaid? It just goes to show what we value most in society. Its wrong.

Wrong. We wouldn't be free under Z1, we'd have anarchy. We don't trade our liberties for anything, but being under government means I can't go out and commit mass murder without consequence like I could in the Venus Project world. Perhaps you like a world like that, 99.99% of society does not.

The thing is the only person putting a value on human life is you. You value it at $0 because you wish to create a world of anarchy where no human life is respected.

Being under government means a lot more than you say. It isn't just you can't commit murder. How do you like the fact that you can be detained for looking like someone of suspicion? Your rights meaning nothing? That's called having your liberties taken away. You really believe you haven't traded any of your liberties away? Honestly, it just seems you'd rather make a point against me than think logically. You think I'm the one that doesn't value human life because I'd rather replace the profit incentive (self-interest/greed) with benefit mankind incentive? In what world does that make sense?

I really think you got carried away in proving me wrong. Leave out the ad hom attacks. Thanks.

And in response to your other post. How you love that I use the government in my solution? Just because I don't like the idea of our government doesn't mean I don't acknowledge the fact that the government is an essential part to this society.

LightinDarkness

12th July 2009, 05:04 PM

Why did you take that out of context to use it against me? I was using that in reference to life.

Its quite in context. Your just using the Z1 talking points which are devoid of logic.

Bill Gates also funds eugenics projects. Just goes to show he's not an all around great guy.

1) This is conspiracy theory woo. Please provide evidence and citations for this absurd claim.

2) This actually further illustrates why Zeitgeist fails at every turn. What would you do to stop eugenics in your Zeitgeist utopia? Even though its illegal now, you could do nothing about it because no institution could stop it in your communist world.

I guess I should have elaborated? Lol. I guess Democracy=American Idol. But, since the society will be far technologically integrated at this time, facts of the case will be analyzed objectively and something will be done according to the evidence? I believe there will still be a justice system to an extent but it will be understood to only have the power we allow it to have as most things are in reality. Are all the kinks worked out? No, I admitted that already but its a step.

Except its not really a democracy. In such a world you have the tyranny of the majority. What happens when the majority votes for slavery? Of course then we have the small problem that the majority wouldn't have any power because there is no government. Its a failure from whatever angle you look at it - give the votes power and they could vote for horrible things in your communist utopia. Stay true to the Venus Project propaganda and they have no power. You could vote all day but couldn't actually do anything. Second, justice was never meant to be a democracy. There is a reason why we don't have American idol votes to decide court cases.

Your answers again and again demonstrate that the Venus Project absolutely FAILS to address even the most basic issues. It has no way to deal with people from murdering each other and cannot stop anyone from doing so - there are no government, no police, no nothing. How do you expect to create your communist welfare state when you can't even put someone to trial for murdering someone else?

This is your opinion of it. Apparently, this opinion wasn't derived from reading what I had to say about Christianity because I don't feel that bashing it is in any way 'popular.' In fact, its way more popular to be a Christian it seems. Life is nice and black and white for them.

This isn't my opinion. These are the facts. Zeitgeist lures in young people who want to rage against the machine.

You're just trying to belittle the idea by saying 'magical robot.' But yes, machines can take the place of humans in many instances and the business will remain if not become more so efficient. We need people to do jobs that only people can do. Education? Why are teachers so dramatically underpaid? It just goes to show what we value most in society. Its wrong.

Again, you mistake "belittling" for the facts. The facts are its impossible. Yet again, all you are doing is repeating the standard talking points. Tell me - are machines going to fix the machines? Are machines going to upgrade the machines? Are machines going to think up of new machines? Please tell me where all this technology has.

You will have no one working. No one will teach because they have no incentive to. Teachers are actually paid quite well for what they do in many cases. What is wrong is that you don't know the facts.

Being under government means a lot more than you say. It isn't just you can't commit murder. How do you like the fact that you can be detained for looking like someone of suspicion? Your rights meaning nothing? That's called having your liberties taken away. You really believe you haven't traded any of your liberties away? Honestly, it just seems you'd rather make a point against me than think logically. You think I'm the one that doesn't value human life because I'd rather replace the profit incentive (self-interest/greed) with benefit mankind incentive? In what world does that make sense?

And here we finally get to it. The essence of Zeitgeist propaganda: raging against the machine. The problem is you are raging against things that are not happening. I cannot be detained without charges. I have all the liberties I always have.

Furthermore, your Zeitgeist world would be far worse. Not only would I have no rights, but people could vote on whether or not to shoot me in an American Idol style western justice system. I'll take my rights under the Constitution of the United States over your anarchy any day.

You, like all Zeitgeist faithful and propagandists, do not value human life. You hate humanity. You would throw out everything that gives human life value and institute anarchy. I, on the other hand, like human life. And I understand how its OK to be motivated by profit and still value human life.

I really think you got carried away in proving me wrong. Leave out the ad hom attacks. Thanks.

Nice try, but you've been debunked as has every other Z1 propagandist before you. No ad hominem attacks needed, just the facts.

And in response to your other post. How you love that I use the government in my solution? Just because I don't like the idea of our government doesn't mean I don't acknowledge the fact that the government is an essential part to this society.

WRONG. You have proposed using government in a method that has already been used and was a dramatic failure. How can we trust you to be a member of this communist utopia and bring us all into enlightenment when you don't even have the facts straight on simple things like the government's history with owning and operating electricity utilities?

Glockjaw

12th July 2009, 05:54 PM

Wow.

Lol

That meaning of life idea was not in Zeitgeist anywhere. Nowhere do they state 'the meaning of life' that was my meaning of life. It just goes to show you don't really understand what you're reading but rather blaming everything on Zeitgeist propaganda.

I just explained how I DO value human life. And you sit there and tell me I DON'T? Really? Those are some great arguments. I gotta hand it to ya. You really used FACTS to prove I don't value human life.

But seriously, half of your post was valid in using facts to prove and disprove such as the problems the Zeitgeist world faces (even though no one ever called it perfect, but rather you're just scared of change which happens with most older people sadly)

The other half though was full of ********. Like you telling me I don't value human life? Who the hell are you? You inject baseless opinion into facts that don't go together to make a general point. Intertwining good ideas with 'propaganda' and 'brainwashing' to make your point to shrug it off.

Ruthlessness and greed come from people being scared that there aren't enough resources for them (scarcity) and so they feel inclined to fight for what they need. You honestly don't think things would be different if necessities weren't scarce?

Oh! You just assume that people are generally lazy and won't do anything now that there isn't a money incentive? Well that only shows what YOU think of humanity. It takes a proper education (not a brainwashed education please let off with the brainwashing ****). The only education people need today is 'how to make money' anything else is relatively useless. Some people learn it in school, others learn it on the street.

I'm the one who feels that we have the technology to make enough food to feed the world. I'm the one that would like to make sure the world is fed.

But hey, that means there's no profit so whats the point right? So many good things..

TheDaver

12th July 2009, 06:00 PM

CT trolls JREF, news at 11!

Cl1mh4224rd

12th July 2009, 06:00 PM

And the link I was going to post by the way was just to Tesla motors so you could see the nice new fancy electric car lol.

The Model S that starts at ~$50,000, or the Roadster that starts at ~$101,000?

LightinDarkness

12th July 2009, 06:16 PM

Wow.

Lol

I have the same reaction every time a Zeitgeist propagandist comes to preach to us.

That meaning of life idea was not in Zeitgeist anywhere. Nowhere do they state 'the meaning of life' that was my meaning of life. It just goes to show you don't really understand what you're reading but rather blaming everything on Zeitgeist propaganda.

I am not sure how to say this for the third time, so I am just going to be blunt: No one cares about what you think the meaning of life is. The way Zeitgeist advocates for the "meaning of life" makes the value of human lives worthless and promotes anarchy. It does not respect human lives.

I just explained how I DO value human life. And you sit there and tell me I DON'T? Really? Those are some great arguments. I gotta hand it to ya. You really used FACTS to prove I don't value human life.

Indeed I did use such facts. You advocate for a system of anarchy, which is Zeitgeist (fact). Anarchists have no respect for human life, since their system has no institutions or measures to protect it (fact).

But seriously, half of your post was valid in using facts to prove and disprove such as the problems the Zeitgeist world faces (even though no one ever called it perfect, but rather you're just scared of change which happens with most older people sadly)

Well, actually the entire post was valid, but OK, whatever makes you happy. Zeitgeist doesn't just have problems - not being able to have a system for something as simple to deal with the most basic problems of society is a fatal flaw. Its a systematic error. It is because of these numerous errors and flaws that Zeitgeist never works and never will work.

And we see yet again that your arguments all boil down to this rage against the machine non-sense. You are sacred to operate in the real world because it means you would have to work for what you have and yes, Virginia, it would mean that other people would have more than you. And that, for most of the current generation of disgruntled teenagers and 20 somethings, is the most terrifying fact of all.

The other half though was full of ********. Like you telling me I don't value human life? Who the hell are you? You inject baseless opinion into facts that don't go together to make a general point. Intertwining good ideas with 'propaganda' and 'brainwashing' to make your point to shrug it off.

Typical Zeitgeist propaganda pusher response: call people names and say they are wrong but don't point out what was wrong. I have already proven you, if you support Zeitgeist, do not support human life.

Ruthlessness and greed come from people being scared that there aren't enough resources for them (scarcity) and so they feel inclined to fight for what they need. You honestly don't think things would be different if necessities weren't scarce?

I love this. Don't you understand?

(1) There is no a system where the "necessities" aren't scarce. It isn't possible.
(2) Ever heard of white collar crime? People murder, rape, and steal from each other all the time while they have everything they could ever dream of.

Oh! You just assume that people are generally lazy and won't do anything now that there isn't a money incentive? Well that only shows what YOU think of humanity. It takes a proper education (not a brainwashed education please let off with the brainwashing ****). The only education people need today is 'how to make money' anything else is relatively useless. Some people learn it in school, others learn it on the street.

Actually I assume people are smart. As we've been over before, a "proper" Education debunks Zeitgeist. It shows it to be devoid of reality. Any education which includes critical thinking, logic, and reasoning would be counterproductive for you. Your only hope is to brainwash people.

I'm the one who feels that we have the technology to make enough food to feed the world. I'm the one that would like to make sure the world is fed.

No, you are the one advocating for a lawless world where magic robots somehow give everyone everything they want.

But hey, that means there's no profit so whats the point right? So many good things..

Indeed, no point at all since it isn't possible. This dislike of profit is a classical case of disaffected teenagers raging against the man. Profit is great.

thought_fugitive

12th July 2009, 06:34 PM

Glockjaw: LightinDarkness was correct when he said you are not using logic. You are being open to alternative interpretations of the world, which in itself is commendable, but you've made it apparent that you're searching only for facts that reinforce your preferred world-view. Even worse, it seems that you're misunderstanding the assertions, aims, and major shortcomings of Zeitgeist and TVP.

It's one thing to be curious, but to fallaciously disagree with people who have offered counterarguments to your posts makes you seem juvenile and uninterested in facts.

thought_fugitive

12th July 2009, 06:39 PM

In addition to that, posters here and in the skeptical community at large aren't inherently against solving the problems Zeitgeist seeks to remedy. They've learned through the application of practical logic and critical thinking that TVP is a pipe dream and might be one of the worst failures of Occam's Razor ever proposed. My key point is that there are far better ways to improve the world than to erase everything and start over with no institutions or private property.

Glockjaw

12th July 2009, 10:49 PM

Glockjaw

12th July 2009, 10:53 PM

And if you throw around the word 'troll' like that, I guess you don't really know what it means. I am in no way trolling, even if I'm wrong about everything. I came and presented my opinion. This may not have been the most accurate place in the forum, but it was the most active on the subject 'Zeitgeist'

LightinDarkness

12th July 2009, 10:59 PM

I understand what you guys are saying. That's why I came here. This is THE place that questions every living detail of everything. And so I knew I would be criticized immediately but I stand firm in my beliefs in that I know my beliefs aren't intended to hurt anyone. I also can see where certain parts need to be re-evaluated and so I've taken everything said into consideration because I do like to gather facts.

You didn't come here to hear the facts. You've shown nothing will convince you. You still believe 9/11 woo in spite of it being debunked countless times. Zeitgeist is just like 911 woo - no matter how much we debunk it the faithful, like you, will still believe.

No where has anyone criticized you, but you keep whining about it because it helps you not address the torrent of issues that Zeitgeist has.

You are not here to gather the facts, your posts have shown this.

I will still say that Lightindarkness however was quite rude in arguing, saying I have no regard for human life, as if there is a logical method to finding out who cares and who doesn't. Just because I like Zeitgeist's ideas doesn't make me some apathetic rebel with no regard for anybody. You stereotype me in with everyone that likes Zeitgeist and argue based on those generalizations. I made specific claims in my beliefs and you argued back saying I, in fact, had the opposite claim.

You equate "rude" to someone using logic, reason, and critical thinking. This is called skepticism, it is only in the Zeitgeist woo that such concepts are "rude."

Zeitgeist does indeed attract a certain type of people. This has been proven by quite a few disaffected Zeitgeist faithful who shunned your woo and embraced critical thinking. What are the faithful that believe in Zeitgeist? Mostly young, disaffected teenagers and 20 somethings who wish to rage against the "MAN" and are upset that people have more money than them.

Your claims have been debunked. In fact, they weren't new to begin with, because despite you claiming to have read other threads about this you clearly have not. You brought up the same Zeitgeist propaganda that we've seen and debunked for the past year. Nothing was different.

Zeitgeist is and will always be a uniting religion for conspiracy and fear mongers. A shelter for the disaffected who are angry that they see others work hard and have more than them. A banner to uphold for those who look to shadowy cabals and evil things to explain why they are not happy in the world. It will never come to fruition, because it fails from top to bottom.

If the Zeitgeist faithful spent as much time doing community service and working in reality to change the world, much good could have happened by now. Instead, they try to evangelize and spread the faith and do nothing substantial.

Glockjaw

13th July 2009, 08:46 AM

Please stop putting meaning behind my words that fits in with your interpretations. You constantly say what you think is right as being right.

I don't 'equate rude to someone using logic'. I equate rude with someone who is a straight up ********* and even when the person he is debating with will admit to his faults, he will still BE a *********. I guess rude wasn't the most accurate word.

Don't use 'skepticism' as the premise to be an *******. You blatantly get off on controlling the argument rather than getting your point across.

I'm sorry to have come here where I thought I would get mature responses, but instead found a ****** that will attack someone for disagreeing with them. All I said was I had ideas that were open to be re-evaluated and you still attack me as though I'm wrong about everything, which wouldn't make sense because I can't be wrong about an idea. But, you're so desperate to PROVE me wrong, that you'd somehow make me look wrong in that sense too, pathetic. So congrats Lightindarkness, rather than be mature, you took the road of *************.

Edited breach of Rule 10....and let's remember, attack the argument and not the arguer.

Glockjaw

13th July 2009, 08:50 AM

I simply don't believe everything about 9/11 because Bush used it as a premise to get into Afghanistan and subsequently, Iraq. And since some of these plans were drawn up pre-9/11 that would mean that he was waiting for something like 9/11 to happen so he could sneak on in. What's so unbelievable about that? It happened didn't it? But don't worry about it. I'm sure you have some well-rehearsed line for me.

Sunray Breaker

13th July 2009, 12:15 PM

You, like all Zeitgeist faithful and propagandists, do not value human life. You hate humanity. You would throw out everything that gives human life value and institute anarchy. I, on the other hand, like human life. And I understand how its OK to be motivated by profit and still value human life.

A bit below the belt there LightinDarkness...Even Hitler valued (some) human life. I think his value of human life has been manipulated. It's like when Christians send their whole paychecks to evangelists. They THINK they're doing something good for mankind, but in reality, their making things worse. Ease up brutha, don't chase em away, embrace em' to stay.

TO GLOCK JAW:

I was a heavy supporter of the Zeitgeist Movement and still listen to PJ's broadcasts to get a balanced perspective, but the ZM as a whole is likely a failure when you really look into it.

Jacque Fresco has some cool inventions that I think could be applied to society, but as far as his form of governence and this idea of a "resource based economy" unfortunately just doesn't work.

I advise you to look up, under the conspiracy theory section here, more on Zeitgeist Addendum.

There are some VERY solid arguments (particularly from Travis, LightinDarkness and The Prestige) on the matter.

There is a lot of things that Zeitgeist and the truth movement have lead us to believe are the truth, but it's really just speculative and inconclusive.

I fully support the idea of more research going into alternative energy, if not for the poorer pockets of society who simply can't afford gasoline. But to claim it as an actual solution, when the jury is still out, is quite misleading.

That's the problem with many of the claims in Zeitgeist. It creates this idea that the world is much worse off than it really is. The funniest thing about it, when you think about how ZM would be applied in a any real world scenario, it would likely be worse off than the way things are now.

Sadly, as inefficient as our current political system can be, it is unfortunately, still the MOST efficient that we've managed to come up with. I do disagree with some skeptics about the incentive for corruption and still believe (to a certain degree) that money does provide a higher incentive for corruption. Although equally (at least now) I do feel that the lack of monetary incentive, ultimately leads to lower incentive for productivity.

Not all the optimism in the world will change that reality.

It's a hard thing to come to terms with, but when you get into the real meat and potatoes of the skeptic's rebuttal to ZM, they really know what they're talking about.

As Peter Joseph said (I'm paraphrasing a bit here):

"In fact, to be proven wrong should be celebrated, as it elevates a persons level of understanding."

This is something that Peter Joseph himself could learn a lot from. If he we're willing to give this place a solid couple weeks of his time and research, he'd abandon the ZM and move on to a better, logical solution.

Problem is that his "belief" is too strong to let go of. He is too idealistic and refuses to admit to himself that THESE THINGS JUST DON'T GET FIXED THAT EASILY.

Ironic...that his beliefs are too strong to let go of in the face of evidence, as he claims to be a critical thinker and atheist...It's almost an insult to atheists and critical thinkers alike, hence the attitude from SOME skeptics.

Be patient with the good folks at JREF. They come off as a bit insulting at times, but really, it's just the truth they're telling and the truth can be quite insulting.

Glockjaw

13th July 2009, 12:16 PM

Okay, Lightindarkness, point taken. You're afraid of anything different. woo woo woo. You've made the same claims. You try to use your opinion as fact to outprove my opinion. I will not change my mind when you address the situation in this manner.

Although your last line made me laugh. Zeitgeist, the movie, has been out since what? June '07? So all the people that watched the movie should have been doing community service and 'much good could have happened by now'? Yes, all the problems in the world come from people watching Zeitgeist and bitching about the government as opposed to doing community service. Lol

I've stated from the get go, that I find the idea behind Zeitgeist to be a good idea. It doesn't solve everything and so you brush it off completely. I understand that logic. Its dumb, but I understand it. You can't deny that the idea behind Zeitgeist is to help all of humanity. It doesn't advocate violence in this way and neither do I. You're just angry because I believe that the government isn't all happy-go-lucky. I believe they make mistakes, and yes, big ones. Not the WHOLE government. Just those in a position where their power makes a difference.

But, you've yet to really address me directly as opposed to just addressing all 'Zeitgeist fans' except when you 'debunk' my opinions with your own opinions. I was hoping to get someone more mature to debate with and so I don't feel there's anything left I need to say to ya.

Glockjaw

13th July 2009, 12:28 PM

Sunray, your response is deeply appreciated. You were much more mature about it than Lightindarkness and so I respect you. I see exactly what you're saying about how when the ideas are applied it comes out in failure. There are many extenuating circumstances in all situations that would turn the simplicity of the solution into something complex.

I understand that the details of Zeitgeist have been debunked and so it is still nothing more than an idea. It is near impossible to get human compliance for all of these because they are scared that in the end they will get screwed over. Why shouldn't they feel this way? We were taught to not trust ideas like this. Ever.

I am fully aware of this reality and how hard it is to change it. Zeitgeist wants to reboot society essentially and that looks impossible. I think it can be done but over a few generations and with the right plans.

If people are educated on the main points, if not the most important parts of every aspect we know as society, then they can make an informed decision. How can we do that when the media will blast Michael Jackson information for weeks on end? How can we do that when our government officials hold secret meetings and have plenty of people to sidetrack those that want answers? How can we do that when our education system is in shambles? No one respects the position of a teacher and that position should be more widely regarded in our society, then a fashion designer. But thats where the profit incentive is taking us don't you think?

The fact is I believe there are too many unnecessary details that people lose their life in. Zeitgeist aimed to somewhat go back from these details and focus on the simple structures all these details have been built upon. But, hypocritically you cannot do this without adding details of your own and thus, the debunking begins. There are more threads and pages of just people bickering about whether fire and debris caused the collapse of the towers than there are grains of sand on a beach (exaggerated).

I concur that the details Zeitgeist imposes on their ideas are not tried and thus can be shown to be fallible. But, the idea behind Zeitgeist is to benefit all of mankind eventually. No one will desire power because there is no reward for it. It comes down to simple conditioning and even Man is prone to it.

I just want to move in that direction eventually because I feel it has potential to be the most beneficial if people worked to make this idea work rather than debunk it as a conspiracy theorist's fetish.

Sunray Breaker

13th July 2009, 12:35 PM

Although your last line made me laugh. Zeitgeist, the movie, has been out since what? June '07? So all the people that watched the movie should have been doing community service and 'much good could have happened by now'? Yes, all the problems in the world come from people watching Zeitgeist and bitching about the government as opposed to doing community service. Lol

I've stated from the get go, that I find the idea behind Zeitgeist to be a good idea. It doesn't solve everything and so you brush it off completely. I understand that logic. Its dumb, but I understand it. You can't deny that the idea behind Zeitgeist is to help all of humanity. It doesn't advocate violence in this way and neither do I. You're just angry because I believe that the government isn't all happy-go-lucky. I believe they make mistakes, and yes, big ones. Not the WHOLE government. Just those in a position where their power makes a difference.

But, you've yet to really address me directly as opposed to just addressing all 'Zeitgeist fans' except when you 'debunk' my opinions with your own opinions. I was hoping to get someone more mature to debate with and so I don't feel there's anything left I need to say to ya.

I said the exact same thing you just said in a better forum about this two weeks ago. This is group think brutha. It's scary to see someone say almost IDENTICALLY what I was spouting off about 2 weeks ago.

Seriously man, I understand where you're coming from on this. I even started a local Zeitgeist Chapter!!!

But this movement REALLY is not what you think it is. I beg you not to BELIEVE anything you don't KNOW for certain, or you'll end up feeling like a complete chump, like I did.

Trust me, as awesome as Peter Joseph and Jacque's idea's sound in theory, in reality, they JUST DON'T WORK.

It's not an opinion, there are several sociological economic case studies that can prove it.

These guys are just giving you attitude because they've been THOUROUGHLY debunking this for a year now and want some new stuff to debunk.

Mind you, you're debating with college professors, economists, college students, philanthropists, etc.

These folks are HIGHLY experienced in the fields that you're critiqing based on a few bits of information that's been taken out of context.

I implore you to look deeper into the forums about Zeitgeist on this site, you will learn a lot and I HOPE "Be greatful for being proven wrong."

thought_fugitive

13th July 2009, 12:44 PM

Although your last line made me laugh. Zeitgeist, the movie, has been out since what? June '07? So all the people that watched the movie should have been doing community service and 'much good could have happened by now'? Yes, all the problems in the world come from people watching Zeitgeist and bitching about the government as opposed to doing community service. Lol

In addition to that, posters here and in the skeptical community at large aren't inherently against solving the problems Zeitgeist seeks to remedy. They've learned through the application of practical logic and critical thinking that TVP is a pipe dream and might be one of the worst failures of Occam's Razor ever proposed. My key point is that there are far better ways to improve the world than to erase everything and start over with no institutions or private property.

YES! Much good could certainly have happened had the passive rebels without a cause been involved in community service instead of telling people on the internet to watch a movie!

Also take note of just how much Peter Joseph exploits the capitalist / monetary system he hates ever so much. Seriously, how much of the Zeitgeist films are ideas original to him? Nearly the entire first two films are direct copies of other peoples' conspiracy theories shaped into his own narrative and cool looking film.

He's playing the exact same game as Alex Jones and I even remember listening to the AJ radio show the first time he had Peter Joseph on as a guest. Joseph probably would have treasured having a corporate connection to Jones but the subject of the books Joseph is trying to sell is incompatible with the ideology of America's founding fathers so Jones dismissed him as a theosophic Illuminati operative.

People like Alex Jones and Peter Joseph are focused on perpetuating their streams of income, not improving the world.

Sunray Breaker

13th July 2009, 01:35 PM

The fact is I believe there are too many unnecessary details that people lose their life in. Zeitgeist aimed to somewhat go back from these details and focus on the simple structures all these details have been built upon.
This is one of the bigger problems in Zeitgeist, that a lot of these concepts are built on what Jacque and Peter THINK is best for humanity.

Unfortunately, as much as we'd like to believe that our society has been raised to value things such as fashion designers over education. Our society raised itself to be this way. What you see now is ALL a biproduct of human consent, to one degree or another. Even the most fascist regimes we're eventually asked for by the public, out of it's collective fear. I agree that we don't emphasize enough important things in life, but It's our duty to our fellow man to emphasize them and talk about them. If we emphasize something like zeitgeist, we will end up with a technocracy ultimately (which is almost scarier than communist utopianism). Like Jacque said, science would eventually eliminate the need for laws. So in this instance, it would be like demolition man...Where abbhorent behavior (which some would deem as swearing or lead singing for the sex pistols) would be irradicated. This would make for a pretty stale and boring life, not to mention waaay to many rules would have to be followed to irradicate it. As well as the fact that no one agrees on what behavior is abbhorrent and what is not.

There'd be certain types of media and behavior that would HAVE to be against the law, in order to stop perpetuating idea's that create corruption or exploitation.

In essence, it would be the exact model of liberal fascism. I do believe that science should be more embedded into politics than it is today. I'd much rather have Einstein running things than Obama, but in reality, you need a little bit of both.

But, hypocritically you cannot do this without adding details of your own and thus, the debunking begins. There are more threads and pages of just people bickering about whether fire and debris caused the collapse of the towers than there are grains of sand on a beach (exaggerated).
And sadly, only two films that critique the truth movement and 100's that support it. There's not nearly enough critical mass for the skeptics, and it's unfortunate. I'm trying to convice the skeptics to make a film debunking Zeitgeist (see Screw Loose Change: Not freakin' again edition, for a pretty final debunking on 9/11)

Constant debunking is one of the most positive and effective ways of evaluating our actual world. It keeps our heads from getting to big and stamps out the flames of extremeism before they go rampant.

I concur that the details Zeitgeist imposes on their ideas are not tried and thus can be shown to be fallible. But, the idea behind Zeitgeist is to benefit all of mankind eventually. No one will desire power because there is no reward for it. It comes down to simple conditioning and even Man is prone to it.
The problem here is, it would likely lead to conditioning, regulations and rules that not even the craziest of dictators could get away with... It would ultimately be a tyranny that we consent to, much as it is now.

Even if the idea is to benefit all of mankind, we would all end up being subserviant to the scientific community and dependent on it's ideas and technology to save us from ourselves. It's nice to IMAGINE that people would change their incentives, but as several case studies show, this is simply not the case. (such as LightinDarkness' example of White Collar Crime)

I just want to move in that direction eventually because I feel it has potential to be the most beneficial if people worked to make this idea work rather than debunk it as a conspiracy theorist's fetish.

The reason these folks don't want to make it work is because they see how disasterous things would be if it did. If the ZM is serious about making REAL change, than they would pay closer attention to peer reviewed case studies, and less to the "one in a million" studies that typically fail upon peer review.

Much love and respect though brutha. I know where you're coming from, but don't run off from these forums just yet. There is A LOT of beneficial information here.

grandthefttoaster

13th July 2009, 03:13 PM

I think arguing about whether are not the economic system in Zeitgeist II would work is kind of pointless because Zeitgeist I is completly wrong with all it's facts. Why would anyone want to listen to someone who says they have the answers to the worlds problems, when the problems are all made up?

LightinDarkness

13th July 2009, 03:56 PM

Please stop putting meaning behind my words that fits in with your interpretations. You constantly say what you think is right as being right.

Yet again, no one is doing this. The problem is you don't have any evidence in favor of your arguments nor does basic logic or reason support them. As such, you make up these claims of insults and things like this that don't really exist. Its not really hapenning, its just your way of deflecting.

I don't 'equate rude to someone using logic'. I equate rude with someone who is a straight up douche bag and even when the person he is debating with will admit to his faults, he will still BE a douche bag. I guess rude wasn't the most accurate word.

So the truth comes out - Glockjaw isn't here to do anything but insult everyone and preach to us.

Don't use 'skepticism' as the premise to be an ass hole. You blatantly get off on controlling the argument rather than getting your point across.

You should stop projecting. These are your problems, not mine.

I'm sorry to have come here where I thought I would get mature responses, but instead found a douche that will attack someone for disagreeing with them. All I said was I had ideas that were open to be re-evaluated and you still attack me as though I'm wrong about everything, which wouldn't make sense because I can't be wrong about an idea. But, you're so desperate to PROVE me wrong, that you'd somehow make me look wrong in that sense too, pathetic.

Indeed, like all Zeitgeist faithful you thought you would come here and astound and amaze the skeptics. You lied to the forum, and now do nothing but run and whine about being insulted when no one has and throw out insults because you have no evidence. This is the future of the Zeitgeist movement? Sad, sad indeed.

You have shown you are not interested in having anything re-evaluated, you are here to preach. No one has to prove you wrong - Zeitgeist is wrong at the face of it. And your child like insults shows you've got nothing and are little more than a immature child.

LightinDarkness

13th July 2009, 03:58 PM

LightinDarkness

13th July 2009, 04:05 PM

Okay, Lightindarkness, point taken. You're afraid of anything different. woo woo woo. You've made the same claims. You try to use your opinion as fact to outprove my opinion. I will not change my mind when you address the situation in this manner.

Here you go again with your projecting. You've been debunked up and down and your just repeating the same talking points. This is just a replay on the old woo talking point of "OMG YOUR NOT OPEN MINDED." No, I am quite open minded, I just know when something doesn't work.

I am not here to change your mind. You never will, you have shown that. You are here to preach and show others the horrible power of Belief and how it destroys your critical thinking skills.

Although your last line made me laugh. Zeitgeist, the movie, has been out since what? June '07? So all the people that watched the movie should have been doing community service and 'much good could have happened by now'? Yes, all the problems in the world come from people watching Zeitgeist and bitching about the government as opposed to doing community service. Lol

Again, if this is the knowledge of the Zeitgeist faithful things are much worse than I first thought. It shows they aren't interested in making the world better, as suspected, they are interested in making a world where they don't have to do anything. Imagine if you spent the time you have spreading propaganda to work in your community. And by work I don't mean handing out propaganda literature on the movie. Go volunteer at a food bank, an animal shelter, a hospice. So much good could be done, but you laugh at it. Because the truth is you aren't interested in doing good, you are interested in raging against the machine and doing nothing.

I've stated from the get go, that I find the idea behind Zeitgeist to be a good idea. It doesn't solve everything and so you brush it off completely. I understand that logic. Its dumb, but I understand it. You can't deny that the idea behind Zeitgeist is to help all of humanity. It doesn't advocate violence in this way and neither do I. You're just angry because I believe that the government isn't all happy-go-lucky. I believe they make mistakes, and yes, big ones. Not the WHOLE government. Just those in a position where their power makes a difference.

The ideas presented by Zeitgeist fail from the start. Its a complete failure to launch. A communist society where we can't even figure out how to deal with basic human problems like crime but somehow will create magical robots to give us everything we could ever need.

I am sorry that you are so angry at the world that you can't see these basic flaws. The evidence shows that the ideas behind Zeitgeist don't only not help humanity, they hurt it.

But, you've yet to really address me directly as opposed to just addressing all 'Zeitgeist fans' except when you 'debunk' my opinions with your own opinions. I was hoping to get someone more mature to debate with and so I don't feel there's anything left I need to say to ya.

That is because, as we've established, you are not saying anything different. You lied to us about reading other threads on this, your bringing up the same debunking talking point. Your not interested in debating, your here to preach and insult.

LightinDarkness

13th July 2009, 04:08 PM

Be patient with the good folks at JREF. They come off as a bit insulting at times, but really, it's just the truth they're telling and the truth can be quite insulting.

I would just like to emphasize this again both for our current Zeitgeist preacher and the ones that will come after him.

Zeitgeist requires such a disregard and disconnection from reality that when it is seriously questioned you will feel insulted, even though no one is insulting you. It is because upon thinking about it critically the entire system collapses, and that shatters worldviews for people who Believe in it. Your world being shattered is not fun, so people cope with it by perceiving that people are after them and insulting them.

LightinDarkness

13th July 2009, 04:20 PM

In essence, it would be the exact model of liberal fascism. I do believe that science should be more embedded into politics than it is today. I'd much rather have Einstein running things than Obama, but in reality, you need a little bit of both.

I would add, in addition to what you have already said (which has been right on), that while we would all love scientific decision making to run government this has been tried and failed. It was a move in the early 1900s called "scientific management" that attempted to remove all of the bureaucracy, politics, etc. from government decision making. It was a spectacular failure.

It failed because we found out quickly that governments must make decisions whose real costs and benefits are not only hard to quantify, but also often involve human life itself which we are attempting to put a cash value on. The decision to cut medicaid and increase funding for alternative fuel research, for example, makes perfect scientific sense but results in people dying. We found again and again and again that attempts to make governing scientific results in catastrophic problems due to things like this.

The best research showing that applying scientific decision making to management results in systematic failures is probably Fredrick Taylor and his book The Principles of Scientific Management.

Also, why we don't have a movie debunking Zeitgeist, we do have a comprehensive list that has been compiled by a very active skeptic which goes line by line in the movie and debunked it top from bottom. It does the same thing with the second one:
http://www.conspiracyscience.com/articles/zeitgeist/

I think the reason why we usually don't do movies is because, honestly, the truth doesn't matter when it comes to conspiracy and things like Zeitgeist. People don't believe in it because its true - there is something deep down in the crevices of logic and critical thinking of us all that sends off alarm bells when even considering the basic premises - they believe it because it is what they wish were true. There is no movie, no matter how good we make it, that can compete with the overwhelming power to Believe. Coming to the truth must take a willingness of the person to want to know the truth and not simply believe in things that they wish were true. That isn't present in most Zeitgeist people. Sunray, you are the rare exception - you started with a genuine interest in knowing the truth. It was covered by a lot of talking points Zeitgeist provided you, but it was there. And you found out the reality that Zeitgeist was a sham without a movie because you did the research. And we are very happy to have you on the side of logic and reason :)

fullflavormenthol

13th July 2009, 05:17 PM

Reading this thread it does seem to me that our latest Zeitgeist proponent came here to preach to us, and unfortunately it seems the expectation was for us to drop our jaws in awe at the greatness of the Venus Project (here on out 'TVP'). This of course is more than partially due to the belief communicated within Zeitgeist that if only we knew of TVP we would all drop everything and commit to it. This fails to happen and there are the ready made excuses to explain why, which usually involves being told to read more and more material and eventually being told to buy TVP books and so on. Of course the proponents believe that their somewhat instant acceptence of TVP is a sign of their higher intelligence or empathic outlook on life; hence how often opponents of TVP are framed in terms of heartless sheep. Which brings me to the eventuality in which TVP proponent either sees the impossibility of TVP or begins to accuse the opponents of being "the man", "the system", etc. This is the predictable outlook of those using TVP talking points. The main problem is that I have yet to encounter a TVP proponent that can defend these ideas in their own words without directing me to the writings of their leader. I have personally encountered TVP proponents in real life and honestly they are always college students and are usually English or philosopy majors; never once have I encounter a proponent of TVP that is actually an engineer or scientist.

Regardless I avoid TVP based discussions anymore, mainly because I find it pointless to repeat myself over and over again. I would simply like to direct Glockjaw to the following thread,

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=128702

Besides seeing me get angry, get written up and then transform into a smart alec; you will see something else. Roughly every 5 to 6 pages a new TVP proponent comes into the thread and repeats the same talking points. It turns into an argument, which get personalized; and then they leave just in time for another to arrive into the thread and recycle the same talking points.