Of red wine, and letting it "breathe"

[GlennB]

We hear that bottles of red wine should be unstoppered and left to 'breathe' for 60 mins or more before drinking. More advanced technique is to decant it, which makes sense as the area of the surface is greatly increased in a decanter, and the pouring itself aerates the wine. We hear that pros reckon this can make a profound difference to the taste.

But - my biology teacher (circa 1965) taught us that diffusion of gas into liquid operates in a logarithmic fashion, as I recall ;). It's efficient over 1mm, OK over 2mm, but 20cms would take centuries or similar. Which is why a small fish in a full wine bottle of water would soon expire. And why any creature over about 2mm thick cannot rely on diffusion and needs an active ventilation system.

So - how does wine 'breathe' ? Is it wine cognoscenti techno-babble or is there something to it?

[wackyvorlon]

The potential is they're looking for it to oxidize, which would proceed via a different mechanism.

[roger]

I don't know much about it, but this article (http://www.wineloverspage.com/wineadvisor1/tswa070129.phtml) recommends a breathing time of 24 to 48 hours if you are going to bother to do it at all, for the reasons you state.

edit: pretty much all the googling I've done says it's complete nonsense. It is perhaps worthwhile for a really young wine with a lot of tannins, but you have to really aerate it - decant, pour from a great height, let sit in a glass, etc. Removing a cork does nothing.

[casebro]

Your biology teacher seems to have been ignoring convection currents in the liquid.

There is a venturi gismo that works like a household faucet. Pouring the red through it aerates it, making the wine foamy with the air. Supposedly makes a difference in blind taste tests. I can't tell the difference, but then I don't like reds anyhow.

ETA, try googling <vinturi "blind test">

[GlennB]

Your biology teacher seems to have been ignoring convection currents in the liquid.

There is a venturi gismo that works like a household faucet. Pouring the red through it aerates it, making the wine foamy with the air. Supposedly makes a difference in blind taste tests. I can't tell the difference, but then I don't like reds anyhow.

ETA, try googling <vinturi "blind test">

I can well believe the foamy venturi gismo. Far from the same as pouring and leaving though. Will 'convection currents' save the fish in the bottle?

[ponderingturtle]

I can well believe the foamy venturi gismo. Far from the same as pouring and leaving though. Will 'convection currents' save the fish in the bottle?

Likely nothing will, as I wouldn't think gills work deal well with alcohol. It will likely die of alcohol poisoning very quickly.

[alexi_drago]

Likely nothing will, as I wouldn't think gills work deal well with alcohol. It will likely die of alcohol poisoning very quickly.

Nah, it'll wake up back in it's own bowl with no idea how it got there.

[HarryKeogh]

Likely nothing will, as I wouldn't think gills work deal well with alcohol. It will likely die of alcohol poisoning very quickly.

Unless, of course, it can drink like a fish.

[wackyvorlon]

Some time ago, I had an aquarium with live plants. I used the fermentation of yeast to produce CO2 for the plants. At one point, a cat knocked the fermentation vessel over, and the sugar/yeast/alcohol mix was driven into the tank. Killed the vast majority of the fish.

[GlennB]

Likely nothing will, as I wouldn't think gills work deal well with alcohol. It will likely die of alcohol poisoning very quickly.

Thanks for the instant derail, ponderingturtle. Check the o/p and then try to be coherent if that's OK.

[MG1962]

My understanding of letting as wine breathe is as much to do with odor as anything. Wine is as much in the smell as in the actual taste

[GlennB]

Some time ago, I had an aquarium with live plants. I used the fermentation of yeast to produce CO2 for the plants. At one point, a cat knocked the fermentation vessel over, and the sugar/yeast/alcohol mix was driven into the tank. Killed the vast majority of the fish.

Doesn't surprise me. But why were you actively pumping CO2 into the tank? I kept tropical fish for years and never even heard of this. Air has CO2 already and it's readily soluble via your aeration system into the tank water.

[casebro]

He probably just wanted to give his fish headaches.

[ZirconBlue]

The potential is they're looking for it to oxidize, which would proceed via a different mechanism.

I thought oxidation was bad for wine. That's why an open bottle of wine doesn't keep very well.



There is a venturi gismo that works like a household faucet. Pouring the red through it aerates it, making the wine foamy with the air. Supposedly makes a difference in blind taste tests. I can't tell the difference, but then I don't like reds anyhow.


IIRC, Cooks' Illustrated tested one of these devices recently, and gave it a thumbs up.


He probably just wanted to give his fish headaches.

I'm sure they had it coming.

[TheDaver]

My understanding of letting as wine breathe is as much to do with odor as anything. Wine is as much in the smell as in the actual taste
A lot of food and drink is, really.

“Flavour” is a combination of taste and smell. Things can taste really weird when you have a bad head cold or right after you’ve brushed your teeth.

[wackyvorlon]

Doesn't surprise me. But why were you actively pumping CO2 into the tank? I kept tropical fish for years and never even heard of this. Air has CO2 already and it's readily soluble via your aeration system into the tank water.

It may very possibly be an erroneous perception, but the plants did seem to grow much better with the CO2 enrichment.

[BenBurch]

I have heard it expressed that a little oxygen gets in to the wine and enhances the flavor and some of the sulfur volatiles have a chance to escape.

[paximperium]

Letting a wine "breathe" does several distinct things. It lets some measure of oxidation and changes some of the the underlying chemistry of the wine and it also lets some of the alcohol evaporate. Its needs at least 1 day of doing so but I've read some require 2-3 days at times.

The flavor and aroma of wine changes the longer it "breathes" and depending on the wine, some of the more "tannin" and harsher wines mellow out a bit with breathing. Truthfully, the only time most wine fellas ever "breathe" their wine if you want to drink a young wine to mellow out the harsher flavors.

Personally, it you want to drink a young harsh wine, go make a sangria.

[paximperium]

I have heard it expressed that a little oxygen gets in to the wine and enhances the flavor and some of the sulfur volatiles have a chance to escape.
The recommendation is to place the wine in a decanter and rigorously swirl it for it to pick air. I guess it kind of makes sense if you have young cheap wines you know you're going to use as table wine with your dinner in the next 2-3 days.

[paximperium]

I thought oxidation was bad for wine. That's why an open bottle of wine doesn't keep very well. it isn't necessarily bad, most wines keeps for 2-3days after you uncork it. The problem is that for subtle and older wines, "breathing" just makes the wine taste flat...but then I never have any leftovers.

[DavidS]

Doesn't surprise me. But why were you actively pumping CO2 into the tank? I kept tropical fish for years and never even heard of this. Air has CO2 already and it's readily soluble via your aeration system into the tank water.
CO2 isn't very concentrated in air, and bringing air into intimate contact with the water (e.g. aeration) will only equilibrate the water with that concentration. CO2 is usually added to an aquarium for the benefit of plants, not fish. Given sufficient light and other nutrients, CO2 augmentation can definitely contribute to plant growth. Beside their own pleasing appearance, actively growing plants can consume much of the nitrogen and phosphorous that would otherwise accumulate in solution as byproducts of the fishes' metabolism.

In my tank, without CO2 augmentation nitrate levels rise continuously, pH hovers near 8, and plant growth seems sluggish. With strong lighting and CO2 augmentation (a couple-three bubbles every couple-three seconds, enough to hold the pH in the 6.6-7.0 range [a few minutes' aeration raises it to 8-ish]), the plants routinely need trimming and I can't find enough nitrate (nor nitrite nor ammonia) to measure with an aquarium test kit. My qualitative perception of plant growth is arguably subjective, but the impact of CO2 augmentation on nitrogen consumption is quantitatively measurable.

And the fish, including a small school of cardinal tetras seem to be fine with it. A school of rift lake cichlids more accustomed to hard water at pH 8 might be a different story.

[FramerDave]

Your biology teacher seems to have been ignoring convection currents in the liquid.

There is a venturi gismo that works like a household faucet. Pouring the red through it aerates it, making the wine foamy with the air. Supposedly makes a difference in blind taste tests. I can't tell the difference, but then I don't like reds anyhow.

ETA, try googling <vinturi "blind test">

Would pouring the wine into an oversize container and shaking it do the same?

On a side note, a couple months ago I had a long (fruitless) discussion with an otherwise intelligent brother in law about magnetic wine agers. He wasn't much interested in double blind testing. He suckered a sister in law into buying one too.

[casebro]

CO2 isn't very concentrated in air, and bringing air into intimate contact with the water (e.g. aeration) will only equilibrate the water with that concentration. CO2 is usually added to an aquarium for the benefit of plants, not fish. Given sufficient light and other nutrients, CO2 augmentation can definitely contribute to plant growth. Beside their own pleasing appearance, actively growing plants can consume much of the nitrogen and phosphorous that would otherwise accumulate in solution as byproducts of the fishes' metabolism.

In my tank, without CO2 augmentation nitrate levels rise continuously, pH hovers near 8, and plant growth seems sluggish. With strong lighting and CO2 augmentation (a couple-three bubbles every couple-three seconds, enough to hold the pH in the 6.6-7.0 range [a few minutes' aeration raises it to 8-ish]), the plants routinely need trimming and I can't find enough nitrate (nor nitrite nor ammonia) to measure with an aquarium test kit. My qualitative perception of plant growth is arguably subjective, but the impact of CO2 augmentation on nitrogen consumption is quantitatively measurable.

And the fish, including a small school of cardinal tetras seem to be fine with it. A school of rift lake cichlids more accustomed to hard water at pH 8 might be a different story.

And you forgot to even mention the effects of the homebrew on the aquarium owner. Beer or wine?

[paximperium]

Would pouring the wine into an oversize container and shaking it do the same?
A wine decanter works.

[ImaginalDisc]

Would pouring the wine into an oversize container and shaking it do the same?

On a side note, a couple months ago I had a long (fruitless) discussion with an otherwise intelligent brother in law about magnetic wine agers. He wasn't much interested in double blind testing. He suckered a sister in law into buying one too.

The problem there is that almost all red wines have some particulate matter in them, so if you agitate them too agressively it'll taste gritty.

[BenBurch]

The problem there is that almost all red wines have some particulate matter in them, so if you agitate them too agressively it'll taste gritty.

Sure, but it will almost all settle out in an hour or two.

[ImaginalDisc]

Sure, but it will almost all settle out in an hour or two.

Well, yes. But, the question was "Would pouring the wine into an oversize container and shaking it do the same?"

[Damien Evans]

Sure, but it will almost all settle out in an hour or two.

Which is what decanting is really for anyway.

[SezMe]

We <snip>
Who's "we"?

[GlennB]

Who's "we"?

Just the general public, really.

[GlennB]

CO2 isn't very concentrated in air, and bringing air into intimate contact with the water (e.g. aeration) will only equilibrate the water with that concentration. CO2 is usually added to an aquarium for the benefit of plants, not fish. .....

Ah OK. I'll remember this if I ever get back into fish keeping. Is fermentation the usual method, or is it favoured because the home-brew is a useful by product?

[Toke]

With some wines I pour it from as high as possible into a emty waterjug, then back in the bottle. It gives a difference within ½hour or more.

Knowing what wines will benefit is mostly trial and error, for me.

[DavidS]

Beer or wine?
False dichotomy -- Why not both? Is there no room for Scotch in the world? If I gotta pick just one, it's beer (YMMV). I don't let it breathe; I doubt it would help, but mostly I just don't wanna wait.
Ah OK. I'll remember this if I ever get back into fish keeping. Is fermentation the usual method, or is it favoured because the home-brew is a useful by product?
For adding CO2 to an aquarium, fermentation is a useful method that doesn't cost much to try. After a year or so of mixing brew every few weeks, I switched to bottled CO2 for convenience and longevity. Much good info here (http://www.thekrib.com/).

The resulting liquor isn't very useful. If you want to brew for consumption or ethanol production, do that also or instead. If you want something good to drink, learn to do that well or buy from somebody who already does.