3D printers/fabricators

[billydkid]

This is sort of computerish I think. I was thinking I might like to try to build one of those 3D printers that can be used to fabricate small items out of various materials - typically some sort of plastic. For my money, these things seem to amount to glorified/computer controlled hot glue guns - you extrude one layer of material on top of another until you have an object.

These things have been around for a little while, but the technology was sort of at the place where computers were when the Altair came out - owned by a few super geeks and not good for much of anything. What I am wondering is this: is it likely that computer controlled home fabrication will ever catch on and go mainstream as computers have? How likely is the technology to change fundamentally from the approach of 3D "printing" as opposed to, say, laser machining or mechanical machining? Are these things actually good for anything or do they essentially amount to nerd toys?

I have seen some fairly mindblowingly complex creations come from "personal" fabricators of one sort or another - things far to complex to have been merely "printed", but I'm sure these sorts of machines are fantastically expensive and beyond the scope of any home builder such as myself. Does anybody have any opinions about this technology?

[Cleon]

Fabricators at home, I dunno. But this technology is well beyond "not much good for anything." These 3-D fabricators are used by machine shops everywhere. They ain't cheap - good ones run in the hundreds of thousands of dollars - but they are pretty advanced.

If you ever watch the show American Chopper you'll see them occasionally use theirs to fabricate specialized custom motorcycle parts.

[nimzov]

The idea of a 3-d printer that can print its own parts is attractive.

nimzo

[realpaladin]

www.reprap.org

[billydkid]

Fabricators at home, I dunno. But this technology is well beyond "not much good for anything." These 3-D fabricators are used by machine shops everywhere. They ain't cheap - good ones run in the hundreds of thousands of dollars - but they are pretty advanced.

If you ever watch the show American Chopper you'll see them occasionally use theirs to fabricate specialized custom motorcycle parts.
Yes, I know that industry routinely uses computer controlled fabricators, but I am talking specifically about those home fabricators/3D printers. The ones used by industry are not "printers" I wouldn't think and use a different technology.

[billydkid]

www.reprap.org
Yes, that's what I'm talking about. I guess the question is, will these thing go the way of computers and become part of our daily lives? And is this printing approach likely to be the technology used if it does?

[nimzov]

http://blog.makezine.com/archive/2009/02/jay_leno_will_lead_the_3d_printer_r.html

nimzo

[Christian Klippel]

Why use plastic? I'd prefer this one (http://www.candyfab.org/). Just because if the fabbed part isn't what you expected, simply eat it ;) Make a cup that way, and your coffee is always sugared. Well, it wouldn't last that long, but who cares. You can always make a new cup.

Greetings,

Chris

[realpaladin]

Yes, that's what I'm talking about. I guess the question is, will these thing go the way of computers and become part of our daily lives? And is this printing approach likely to be the technology used if it does?

Funny you ask that... I am involved in a thinktank about these things.

If they hit on, and there is no reason why they should not, in some future, they could become a very disruptive technology.

Amongst the people that are thinking about this is a guy from Google, some people from energy companies, some large investment companies and more.

The thing is, it would 'complete' (wrong word here, but it is used to make things clear), the 'atoms to bits', 'bits to atoms' cycle.

That means that for some parts, physical transport of the end product is no longer necessary.

Another implication could be that bad or illegal copies of, let's say plastic toys like LEGO or PlayMobil, could be spread via the Internet.

This is because 3D scanners are becoming cheaper as well.

Now, if transport and production are disrupted, so will a lot of other economic sectors as well.

Banking -> less international transactions
Energy -> less transport
Production -> less factory workers. Although this might be offset by local assembly houses.

But predicting this is not as easy as you might think; the distribution of raw materials, whilst more compact and easier to transport, is done as efficiently as possible now, but would then need a fine-mazed distribution network. The effects of that on economy, energy and production are less clear.

Also, the end-consumer price on raw materials might become thus that it is not really feasible or economically wanted to 'print your own'.

Mind you, it will certainly not be 'the end' of all production.

Much the same as electric circuit-boards; they are available, but making your own iPod is not a thing easily done. Especially if you want it to be exactly the same.

Hope this helps a bit.

[Earthborn]

If you are primarily interested in turning your own 3d designs into tangible object, perhaps you don't need your own 3d printer but rather a printing service such as Shapeways (http://www.shapeways.com/). Some of the objects that people offer on Shapeways show quite well that the technology is fundamentally changing what can be produced; some of the artists have a thing for Mobius-strip and Klein Bottle like shapes, or highly detailed 3d fractals. I don't think there are many other manufacturing processes that can make them.

I don't know whether 3d printers at home will take off, because it would require a lot of expensive "ink".

[Earthborn]

Another implication could be that bad or illegal copies of, let's say plastic toys like LEGO or PlayMobil, could be spread via the Internet.You mean "bad" as in 'if you didn't scan them for viruses, they are going to attack you' ? :)

[realpaladin]

You mean "bad" as in 'if you didn't scan them for viruses, they are going to attack you' ? :)

Well, that had not crossed my mind... but I can imagine emails with 'new powertool plans!' attached which will seriously cause you harm when you are silly enough to 'print', assemble and use them.

The "bad" in my post was actually more like PlayMobil who all looked like Kim Il Yung or somesuch :)

[billydkid]

Interesting thoughts. Thanks

[oldhat]

I think 3D printing will be like virtual reality. Sounds interesting but not very practical in the end.

[realpaladin]

I think 3D printing will be like virtual reality. Sounds interesting but not very practical in the end.

Unlike virtual reality it has very practical uses in developing area's. I am in the process of evaluating a RepRap in several area's in India at the moment and I must say it looks quite promising.

For the people where the buying of an item is less of an effort than creating it, you are completely right.

[Cavemonster]

I think there will (for the foreseeable future at least) be a serious cap on this.
Even if I had a digital printer that had the level of detail to make, say an iphone, which is a big stretch, I would need to procure dozens of materials, some of which are very uneconomical to buy in small amounts and some of which likely behave in particular ways based on how they are processed, not just their shape.

Unless the process undergoes a major revolution it's only good for making sculptural, or purely mechanical functional objects from plastic.

Leggo would be in danger, maybe toy manufacturers, but I don't know if there are enough useful things it could do for really widespread use to catch on.

[Z]

Spore offers a link to a company that uses a 3-D printing process to produce Spore characters as models. The costs seem to be around $60-$80 per statue.

I think it would be an attractive way to produce plastic toys and objects, except that you'd pay for the items twice - once over the internet for the pattern download, and once for the raw material involved. Yes, there would undoubtably be people downloading illegal object patterns, and people mass-producing (to the best of their ability) things to re-sell at flea markets and on e-Bay. But they'd at least still have to cover the cost of the raw material.

I can imagine in the future having a room for 'home manufacturing' - a big 3-D printer along one wall, and banks full of colored raw materials with tubes along another...

Of course, I'd be the poor sucker who bought lower-quality plastiform material from India, whose every toy would fall apart like those cheap wax statues we used to get from truck stops in my childhood...

[Archangel]

Unlike virtual reality it has very practical uses in developing area's.

Virtual Reality, would also have very practical uses, mainly in Medical fields at the moment but we could soon expand that.

For the medical field, if you could get a decent virtual reality system up and running and the ability to give tactile feedback, you'd be able to train doctors on virtual patients without the problem of them causing pain and suffering to an actual patient.

Also in the medical field (assuming the above was in place) you could then have surgeons performing tele-operations on patients on the otherside of the planet without actually having to be there.

There are currently tele-operation systems in place, but they currently lack a decent tactile feedback system and IMO they also seem to lack the ability to truly see what you're doing, whereas a real time VR system* would basically mean the Dr is there in the room with the patient.

*Yes I realise we're a while from getting anything like that, but we're also a while away from a 3D fabricator that does anything that could threaten whole distribution industries and the world economy.

[realpaladin]

*Yes I realise we're a while from getting anything like that, but we're also a while away from a 3D fabricator that does anything that could threaten whole distribution industries and the world economy.

While I totally agree with your post (we use 'Augmented reality' as a company for the datacenters already), the projects like www.reprap.org etc have a more substantial 'I can do that'-factor.

With that I mean that the acceptance will ga a lot faster than the whole VR has done up until now.

But having said that...the 3D set from NVidia is really cool :)

[Pantaz]

DIY and low-cost rapid prototyping (aka, stereolithography) has been covered several times by Make (http://www.makezine.com/).
Instructables.com (http://www.instructables.com/tag/?q=rapid+prototype&limit%3Atype%3Aid=on&type%3Aid=on&type%3Auser=on&type%3Acomment=on&type%3Agroup=on&type%3AforumTopic=on&type%3AforumTopic=on&sort=none) is another good source.

[Dymanic]

That RepRep thing reminds me of a sci-fi story I read once. Same basic idea, but the gizmos scavenged the local environment for raw materials, and each generation was one half the size of the parent generation. A classic "grey goo" scenario.

Speaking of "home fabricators", how about a setup where the "printer" head runs back and forth on big steel I-beams, and squirts out globs of specially-formulated cement? The idea is you can print buildings.

http://thestrangeattractor.net/?p=880

[Angus McPresley]

I think there will (for the foreseeable future at least) be a serious cap on this. Even if I had a digital printer that had the level of detail to make, say an iphone, which is a big stretch, I would need to procure dozens of materials, some of which are very uneconomical to buy in small amounts and some of which likely behave in particular ways based on how they are processed, not just their shape.


This is spot on, I'd say. Though no one ever wants to hear from the naysayers :) But hey, we're supposed to be skeptics, aren't we?

Another problem is the shape of the thing that you're building. You can build something pyramid-shaped layer by layer easily enough, but concave pieces are a lot harder.

And I don't see much advantage to a 3D printer in a third world scenario either. The raw material still needs to be shipped in; why not just ship the product (which might have had to undergo other sorts of assembly/finishing)? I think 3D printers will most likely be seen in warehouse or distribution center situations. (I used to work for an on-demand book publisher, pre dot-bomb, which is basically the same idea, and that seems to be where that industry is headed).

Overall I'd guess that eventually 3D printers will be used for a fair bit of basic shapes, but like the other poster said, they'll be more hype than revolution, as with VR.

[Z]

Another problem is the shape of the thing that you're building. You can build something pyramid-shaped layer by layer easily enough, but concave pieces are a lot harder.

Apparently not - the Guitar Hero and Spore figures are full of concave bits. What's hard are the fine details - feathers, antennae, and so on - that stand unsupported in the virtual model.

Otherwise, I agree with your post.

[Christian Klippel]

Apparently not - the Guitar Hero and Spore figures are full of concave bits. What's hard are the fine details - feathers, antennae, and so on - that stand unsupported in the virtual model.

Otherwise, I agree with your post.

Depends on what technique is used. There are several methods for 3D printing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3D_printing).

Sure, with the cheap-to-build DIY units, you won't get that resolution yet. But with something like 3D microfabrication (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3D_microfabrication) you can get structure sizes down to 100nm without a problem.

It's all a very interesting, evolving technology that probably will make a big impact somewhere in the future, when machinery and materials are commonly available.

Greetings,

Chris

Edit: Take a look at these examples (http://retiary.org/idea/idea6/idea_6/3dprint/3dprint.htm). Especially the ball-bearing.

[Zax63]

Advertisement for Z Corps Z650 3D printer. I found a ballpark price of $40,000 for their smaller Z450 printer. I tried, in a 90% kidding way, to convince my mother to buy one after she inherited some money. If they can get something like this down to $1,000 - $2,000 range I'll be saving my pennies.
GuUAvG1Ampo

[Dymanic]

I've wondered if it would be possible to just rig an old inkjet printer to spray some adhesive that would be waterproof when set, stack up the pages as they come out, press them together, then soak away the excess (unsprayed) paper.

[Ferguson]

The cheapest I've found is the uPrint for $14,900

http://www.uprintsource.com/uprint_video.html?gclid=CMC_iNLp1psCFQEhDQodfSCv_w

[dahduh]

I've been salivating over an Objet (http://www.objet.com/), which is pretty close to being a desktop lithographer but still very expensive. I think currently is in the state laserjets were maybe 20 years ago.

One thing realpaladin doesn't mention is that when you grow a part you don't have to worry about assembly (if you are using the right technology, like thermosetting liquid plastic with a laser). A standard trick is to grow a fully-functional chain, or a gearbox with rotating gears. You can grow pre-assembled devices that are impossible to assemble from individual parts, and I think there are big economies to be gained here once the cost falls to a low enough level.

With regard to using different materials, Objet already supports cartridges with different kinds of plastic; so you can grow a part that has both a hard parts and soft rubbery parts. I suppose eventually it will become possible to sinter metallic parts in place.

[kedo1981]

My dentist made my crowns on a CNC mill last year while I waited.
Which is of course the opposite of printing them.
Jay Leno has a cool article about 3d printing old car parts in Pop Mech.
I doubt most people are going to shell out a few grand for a machine to make plastic curtain brackets or kids toys, I see it evolving into a make on demand retail concept though.
There are loads of DIY 3D routers/CNC projects on the web