Do animals go to Heaven?

[Beerina]

It seems obvious that animals are conscious in the way humans are. We have no reason a dog that's angry or scared or in pain or even ashamed ("Awwww, Buddy! Who pooped here? Who pooped here?") would not use the same mechanism humans do to drive these actions and behaviors, identical to humans.

In other words, consciousness that experiences rage or shame or fear as part of the animal mechanism that drives the associated behaviors.


So what does God do with these consciousnesses after they die? Are they just snuffed out? That doesn't seem fair. But putting them all in some doggy Heaven (and sheep Heaven and macaque monkey Heaven and Neandertal heaven and so on) seems odd. Not only that, but I have trouble conceiving what a human would do for ever and ever, much less a stupid dog.

Well, ok, animals would probably live happily forever better than humans, having twice daily rodent hunts for squirrels, rabbits, and so on. Their little brains wouldn't get bored.






Oh, by the way, I am making the assumption that the human spirit, whatever it is, at least contains, if not consists solely of, the human consciousness. After all, if the everlasting soul is not consciousness, then what do I care what happens to it? And it's clear from the punishment/reward description of the afterlife that consciousness must persist as it's the very definition of the thing that enjoys or suffers.

[Ashles]

It seems obvious that animals are conscious in the way humans are.
Why is it 'obvious'?

It's certainly not commonly accepted as so.

Consciousness (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consciousness)

In philosophical and scientific discussion, however, the term is restricted to the specific way in which humans are mentally aware in such a way that they distinguish clearly between themselves (the thing being aware) and all other things and events.

There are some tests such as the mirror test, but they are controversial.
It's certainly not an 'obvious' conclusion that animals are conscious in the way humans are.

[bobcarp]

I don't believe in people heaven, but I do believe in doggie heaven.

[bobcarp]

Why is it 'obvious'?

It's certainly not commonly accepted as so.


Since when is "commonly accepted" any kind of evidence. At one time it was "commonly accepted" that the world was flat. At one time it was "commonly accepted" that the sun revolved around the earth.

[runnah]

Dogs go to heaven, cats go to hell.

If they did would it be a different heaven?
What if you wanted a dog in heaven?
What if you had a bad dog that went to hell, could you then bring it to heaven?

[dlorde]

It's certainly not an 'obvious' conclusion that animals are conscious in the way humans are.
Perhaps we should not expect them to be conscious in the way humans are, but in their own way. Consciousness presumably evolved because it was a successful strategy, so we might expect more similarity of consciousness in animals that are more closely related and/or have similar evolutionary niches and pressures, e.g. higher primates. It seems likely that the less similar the context, the less similar the consciousness. A high degree of social interaction seems to be an indicator of higher (more familiar?) levels of consciousness, as unexpectedly shown by various corvids, some of which have been shown to have an effective theory of mind and sophisticated problem-solving abilities, including creative tool use.

[Fnord]

Do animals go to Heaven?

No.

They do not have souls.

[bobcarp]

Do animals go to Heaven?

No.

They do not have souls.

I guess Pat Boone ain't going to heaven either...

[Monketey Ghost]

Is there such a thing as heaven would be a better place to start. Then, the existence of the soul and what all has one. THEN, do animals go to heaven.

[RoboTimbo]

Do animals go to Heaven?

No.

They do not have souls.

But then, neither do people.

[catbasket]

Do animals go to Heaven?

No.

They do not have souls.

How about shoes?

[Skeptic Ginger]

A little bit of a side track but related... There was a Twilight Zone marathon over the July 4th wkend. One episode had the plot of an old hillbilly hunting coons with his hound dog. The coon tricked the dog into going in the water and the man jumped in to save the dog (they implied the coon actively drowned the dog).

Both man and dog awoke on the shore but it turned out they were dead. The man wanders around and figures out he's dead. As he wanders down the road a man tells him he's at the gate to heaven. He can come in but the dog can't. So the man refuses and goes further down the road. He meets another man who says that was really the gate to hell and he made the right choice. Dogs are welcome in heaven after all. God rewarded loyalty, I guess.

But then, the man asks if he can continue hunting coons? The angel (man) says certainly.

I thought it was interestingly dated. It's fine to hunt and kill coons in heaven, not sure what the point of the hunt was. Coons must be bad animals and dogs are good animals, I guess.

[Shalamar]

Do animals go to Heaven?

No.

They do not have souls.

If I end in heaven after I die, one of the first things I will ask will be 'Where are my beloved pets?', if told that they're not there, then I WILL be pissed.

[RoboTimbo]

If I end in heaven after I die, one of the first things I will ask will be 'Where are my beloved pets?', if told that they're not there, then I WILL be pissed.

Me and you both, brother. And then there'll be hell to pay.

[ServiceSoon]

Do animals go to Heaven?

No.

They do not have souls.It makes me sad that you say that. I am bringing my cats with me...wherever that may be.

[Star Man]

Do extraterrestrials go to heaven?

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

If people go to heaven and then experience eternal bliss, their pets must be there if eternal bliss for them includes the companionship of their pets.

Now, consider the people who need certain other sorts of things for their eternal bliss. Then consider what happens if some other people disdain those sorts of things. I get the feeling that heaven might be a very lonely place. Or else there are a lot of drugs.

~~ Paul

[Patsy]

I'm not going anywhere my dogs can't go. Faggetabboutit.

[Fnord]

I guess Pat Boone ain't going to heaven either...

Mr. Boone has plenty of soul - it just presents itself as a type of the plain, bland, vanilla tofu variety!

;)

[Robster, FCD]

A little bit of a side track but related... There was a Twilight Zone marathon over the July 4th wkend. One episode had the plot of an old hillbilly hunting coons with his hound dog. The coon tricked the dog into going in the water and the man jumped in to save the dog (they implied the coon actively drowned the dog).

That is a good episode. Raccoons are tough little buggers and good at swimming. They can put up a good fight on land, but a large dog will usually win. In the water, though, dogs just barely keep their heads above the water, so (I have been told) a smart raccoon will lead a dog into water and then climb on its back.

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

According to Sylvia Browne, who claims she has seen heaven, yes.

She even wrote a book about it:

http://www.amazon.com/All-Pets-Go-Heaven-Spiritual/dp/1416590994


The mind boggles.

[ImaginalDisc]

The Great Debate (http://www.ourrisingsound.com/2008/08/19/presbyterian-vs-catholic-church-sign-debate/)

[Skeptic Ginger]

The Great Debate (http://www.ourrisingsound.com/2008/08/19/presbyterian-vs-catholic-church-sign-debate/):D

[AkuManiMani]

Do animals go to Heaven?

No.

They do not have souls.

Whats a soul supposed to be, anyway? And why is there so much argument as to whether or not they stick around after we die? :confused:

[Chimera]

My church-issued catholic school book that I had when I was 6 said that animals had no souls and would not go to heaven. I always thought that was the epitome of unfairness. Surely, if any creature was deserving of a happy afterlife, it was my dog, and not my stinky old brother. :mad:

[I Ratant]

How about shoes?
.
A shoe without a sole is really an awful piece of footware.

[I Ratant]

A little bit of a side track but related... There was a Twilight Zone marathon over the July 4th wkend. One episode had the plot of an old hillbilly hunting coons with his hound dog. The coon tricked the dog into going in the water and the man jumped in to save the dog (they implied the coon actively drowned the dog).

Both man and dog awoke on the shore but it turned out they were dead. The man wanders around and figures out he's dead. As he wanders down the road a man tells him he's at the gate to heaven. He can come in but the dog can't. So the man refuses and goes further down the road. He meets another man who says that was really the gate to hell and he made the right choice. Dogs are welcome in heaven after all. God rewarded loyalty, I guess.

But then, the man asks if he can continue hunting coons? The angel (man) says certainly.

I thought it was interestingly dated. It's fine to hunt and kill coons in heaven, not sure what the point of the hunt was. Coons must be bad animals and dogs are good animals, I guess.
.
Old Blue (trad.)

[D] Well I had an old dog and his name was Blue
Yes I had an old dog and his [A] name was [D] Blue
Well I had an old dog and his name was Blue
I bet you five dollars he’s a [A] good dog [D] too

Old Blue chased a possum up a holler limb
Blue chased a possum up a holler limb
Blue chased a possum up a holler limb
The possum growled, Blue whined at him

[D] Bye Bye Blue, [G] you good dog [D] you
Bye Bye [Bm] Blue, you [G] good dog [D] you

When old Blue died he died so hard
He shook the ground in my back yard
We lowered him down with a golden chain
and every link we called his name

My old Blue was a good old hound
You’d hear him holler miles around
[B]When I get to heaven first thing I’ll do
is grab my horn and call for Blue"

[Beerina]

Why is it 'obvious'?

It's certainly not commonly accepted as so.

Consciousness (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consciousness)



There are some tests such as the mirror test, but they are controversial.
It's certainly not an 'obvious' conclusion that animals are conscious in the way humans are.


Consciousness is not the same thing as self-awareness. This is the pre-reflective cogito an animal would have.


And it seems obvious for the reason I described: It's an integral part of our decision making process when we are angry -- integral to the anger part -- so it's parsimonious to presume it's also present in other animals that express anger and the anger responses.

We have no reason to think this is not the case. And animals do other things humans do, like run and hunt, without a gigantic human brain, either. Why presume our huge brain is required for the simple animal anger response, including consciousness, any more than assume a huge brain is required to run, then be puzzled as to why animals can run?

[Beerina]

Do animals go to Heaven?

No.

They do not have souls.

So what is a soul? It's obviously not just another label for consciousness, according to you. And therefore it is not consciousness. So therefore, why should I care what happens to my non-conscious soul after I die any more than I care for the tires on my car after I die?

[Lanzy]

If anyone actually goes to heaven, then dogs will be there waiting for them.

[Gaetan]

The difference between animals and humans is that we are more intelligent, being more intelligent is not a criterium to go to heaven, as a matter of fact poor in spirit goes to heaven more easily. Animals mostly vegetariens are spiritually superior to human and have access to heaven more easily.

Gaétan

[I Ratant]

"Animals mostly vegetariens are spiritually superior to human and have access to heaven more easily."
.
I guess the weasel that killed all 12 chickens but ate only parts of two of them in our chickenyard won't be in heaven.
But then again, neither will I.

[Aitch]

I don't believe in people heaven, but I do believe in doggie heaven.

Yeah? What about Silicon Heaven? ;)

[HansMustermann]

You know, a question does occur to me: is it supposed to be heaven for _me_ or for the _cat_? Because I'm guessing we'd imagine different things as the perfect place to be in. And if the cat is there just so I can have something purring on my lap, then it's kinda my heaven not necessarily hers.

[kerikiwi]

The difference between animals and humans is that we are more intelligent, being more intelligent is not a criterium to go to heaven, as a matter of fact poor in spirit goes to heaven more easily. Animals mostly vegetariens are spiritually superior to human and have access to heaven more easily.

Gaétan
What species of non-human animal are you?
Are any other non-human animals more intelligent than humans, or is it just your species?
And the animals that are not mostly vegetarian ---are they spiritually inferior or spiritually equal to humans? Do they have equal access to heaven with humans or do they have to get in line?

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

The difference between animals and humans is that we are more intelligent, being more intelligent is not a criterium to go to heaven, as a matter of fact poor in spirit goes to heaven more easily. Animals mostly vegetarians are spiritually superior to human and have access to heaven more easily.

Gaétan

I have to say I don't understand people who worship animals like that. I like cats and dogs too and understand loving your pets but, in my view, no cat, dog or any other animal on Earth is even remotely worth a human life. Any human life. It's not even in the same category. Not even in the same universe.

Neither do I understand people who idealize animals. Dogs have killed human beings. Dogs have killed dogs. Granted, these are usually severely abused dogs trained to be violent- but the idea animals are better than humans is just crazy. It's ingrained in dogs to kill smaller species for food and survival and to attack one another, just like we do. They are no holier and may be "worse", if you can even compare dogs to humans.

Animals may or may not be capable of "murder", as we are, but they sure do kill and maim one another to live. They practise cannibalism, infanticide and rape, too. You might even make a case that some species abuse their children and partners.

They may be lovely and amazing creatures, they may be endearing and bring a lot of joy and life to human beings and should be treated well, yes, but they aren't worthy of even being in the same sentence as a brain damaged child. If I had to sacrifice my cat to save a complete stranger, it would be very sad but I'd do it.

I'm no longer a practising Catholic but if I were and you asked me the "do animals go to heaven" question, I'd say what a silly, immature and childish thing for someone over the age of four to even suggest and how trivializing of religion and of course not. And they don't have souls so no. And even if you don't buy into religion but assumed there was a heaven for the sake of argument, you would find the idea of cats going there laughable.

[Gaetan]

EeneyMinnieMoe

I have to say I don't understand people who worship animals like that. I like cats and dogs too and understand loving your pets but, in my view, no cat, dog or any other animal on Earth is even remotely worth a human life. Any human life. It's not even in the same category. Not even in the same universe.


More intelligent species have more values than others, but being more intelligent is not a criterium to enter in heaven, as a matter of fact, poor in spirit enters heaven more easily, and animals mostly vegetariens are spiritually supérior to us and have access to heaven more easily, that what i meant.

Gaétan

[Fnord]

A man and a woman get married. She is a devout Roman Catholic, and he is a devout Wooist, but they love each other and that's all that matters. So after 50 years of marriage and a half-dozen kids, the man dies in his sleep.

The woman is so distraught about whether or not she'll see her husband again that she finally consults one of her husband's psychic friends. They set up the usual paraphrenalia for a séance, and soon the voice of the husband can be heard from far off.

"Oh, darling!" says the widow, "I've missed you so! Are you alright?"

"Couldn't be better! I'm healthy, I'm happy, and best of all, I'm active!"

"What do you do?"

"Well, in the morning, I wake up, haxe sex, then breakfast, then run around a bit ... Then sex, lunch, and more running around ... then a short nap, followed by supper, sex, still more running around ... and then a final round of sex until I fall asleep from exhaution!"

"Dear God!" exclaims the widow, making the sign of the cross. "You have sex in Heaven?!!"

"Heaven? What are you talking about? I'm a black-tailed jackrabbit in Kansas!"



:newlol

[I Ratant]

That is a good episode. Raccoons are tough little buggers and good at swimming. They can put up a good fight on land, but a large dog will usually win. In the water, though, dogs just barely keep their heads above the water, so (I have been told) a smart raccoon will lead a dog into water and then climb on its back.
.
I didn't know there were any raccoons locally, until recently I've seen two.
Both failed (miserably) at "boulevard crossing".

[dlorde]

I'm no longer a practising Catholic but if I were and you asked me the "do animals go to heaven" question, I'd say what a silly, immature and childish thing for someone over the age of four to even suggest and how trivializing of religion and of course not.Trivializing in what way? It seems like a perfectly reasonable question to me.

And they don't have souls so no.What exactly is a soul? I've always wondered - and how do you know animals don't have one?

even if you don't buy into religion but assumed there was a heaven for the sake of argument, you would find the idea of cats going there laughable.Why? what is heaven if not the things we love? How is that laughable?

I was raised Roman Catholic, btw, and these are the kinds of considerations that first made me question the whole business - the arbitrary rules, the exclusive clubbiness...

[maddog]

Depends on whether or not they peed on the carpet. :D

[Ragnarok]

We can accept that there is more space than actual matter in the different atoms our world consists of, but we can't accept that there is an individual idealised world beyond the physical - whatever that is - which consciousness can inhabit. Why is that, I wonder?

[RoboTimbo]

And they don't have souls so no.

But then, neither do people.

[HansMustermann]

We can accept that there is more space than actual matter in the different atoms our world consists of, but we can't accept that there is an individual idealised world beyond the physical - whatever that is - which consciousness can inhabit. Why is that, I wonder?

Trust me, at least I'm like the white queen. I can accept 6 impossible things before breakfast. And anyone who's ever played a RPG or been a GM, can work quite fine and at length with settings far more absurd than that.

The difference is that I'd like some evidence before I take a fantasy seriously. Even my own. Just because I can imagine worlds populated by elves, words that exist and are modelled by imagination alone, or something like a consciousness in the empty space between atoms... doesn't mean I have to actually live in that fantasy in all seriousness.

And I hope someone will take me to a good psychiatrist, if I ever stop distinguishing between those fantasies and reality.

[kerikiwi]

We can accept that there is more space than actual matter in the different atoms our world consists of, but we can't accept that there is an individual idealised world beyond the physical - whatever that is - which consciousness can inhabit. Why is that, I wonder?

Because all the evidence is that consciousness inhabits brains, and brains only.

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

Trivializing in what way? It seems like a perfectly reasonable question to me.

What exactly is a soul? I've always wondered - and how do you know animals don't have one?

Why? what is heaven if not the things we love? How is that laughable?

I was raised Roman Catholic, btw, and these are the kinds of considerations that first made me question the whole business - the arbitrary rules, the exclusive clubbiness...


Jesus suffered, died and was buried and on the third day He rose again...for your parakeet? So that your cat can live forever?

What sins does your parrot/cat/dog/horse need to be saved from? Attacking your other pets? Does it also have original sin, too? Does it go to hell because it can't confess?

Humans are sentient. We have consciousness. We can feel love. We are capable of doing bad things and good things and being responsible for our actions. At least metaphorically, we can be thought to have a soul. An animal is a nice creature but it can't do any of that. All it is capable of doing is eating, sleeping and reproducing.

[Fnord]

What exactly is a soul? I've always wondered - and how do you know animals don't have one?
.


My Cr0.02...

A "Soul" (as I understand the concept) is that immortal part of a person wherein lies (2) the knowledge of Good and evil, and (2) the permanent record of that human's every thought and deed.

Animals do not understand the concept of "Good and Evil." trained dogs, dolphins, and other trained animals do not perform their trick out of a desire to make the lives of others better. Instead, they can only be trained through a quid-pro-quo method. Do a backflip, get a treat. Jump through a hoop, get a treat. Piddle on the floor or bite a human, and feel pain. Simple.

The "Spirit" (as I understand the concept) is that mortal part of a person or animal that determines their behavior when the "soul" is not engaged. In humans, is it also called their "personality."

"Spirits" can influence each other, or even cause changes in other "spirits" - one person's personality may influence or overwhelm another's, and even the "personality" of an animal can affect the "personality" of a human (and vice-versa). When someone says about a departed loved one (person or pet), "Their spirit lives on," what they are usually saying is that their "personality" was of such great influence that others now behave as the dearly-departed one once did, or that the "personality" of the departed one was of such a nature that the mere thought of the departed one elicits are strong emotional reaction - affection, revulsion, joy, anger, et cetera - just as they did when alive.

"Soul Mates"? A lame attempt to justify a strong feeling of desire in one person for another, or an equally lame attempt to justify the mutual desire of two people for each other when the consummation thereof might conflict with social norms, cultural values, or civil obligations (i.e., marriage).

[Ron_Tomkins]

Do animals go to Heaven?

Only dogs, apparently (http://www.zap2it.com/media/photo/2009-02/45232099.jpg)

[RoboTimbo]

At least metaphorically, we can be thought to have a soul.

Metaphorically, the same can be thought for an animal. The evidence is equivalent.

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

Metaphorically, the same can be thought for an animal. The evidence is equivalent.

Good point. All right, how to put it better? An animal is stupid. We look at it and we see whatever we project onto it of our own, human emotions but as Werner Herzog said of a grizzly bear, its blank stare only contains a half-bored interest in food. It isn't capable of intelligent thought and it isn't capable of real emotion.

If there was such a thing as a soul, an animal sure as hell wouldn't have one.

[dlorde]

Jesus suffered, died and was buried and on the third day He rose again...for your parakeet? So that your cat can live forever?What does Jesus have to do with anything? This topic is about heaven, not Christianity. Not everyone believe that story. Try take a broader perspective.

What sins does your parrot/cat/dog/horse need to be saved from? Attacking your other pets? Does it also have original sin, too? Does it go to hell because it can't confess?Well I know that my cat did things he appeared embarrassed or even guilty about - if judging by parallels with human behaviour is justified... but justified or unjustified anthropomorphism apart, why should anyone or anything need to be 'saved' ? IIRC, god is supposed to forgive you if you repent (it was a long time ago, and I didn't listen very hard). My cat always repented and apologised in his own funny way. He was a good natured creature, and I'd expect to see him in heaven.

Humans are sentient. We have consciousness. We can feel love. We are capable of doing bad things and good things and being responsible for our actions. At least metaphorically, we can be thought to have a soul. An animal is a nice creature but it can't do any of that. All it is capable of doing is eating, sleeping and reproducing.So what about someone who is brain-damaged or in a PVS (permanent vegatative state), someone that doesn't show any signs of sentience, consciousness, or love, and is either incapable of action or incapable of distinguishing right from wrong, and can't be held responsible for their actions? Do they have a soul, metaphorical or otherwise? Or are they considered to be some sort of zombie? What about a newborn child, or an unborn child? At what point does the soul appear?

Many animals are sentient and conscious by any reasonable definition - although perhaps sentient and conscious to a lesser degree or in a different way to humans. They clearly show love, and some (particularly mammals and birds) show awareness of social and 'moral' codes and will punish individuals who transgress, etc. - in short, they have moral and ethical behaviour appropriate to their level and complexity of society/culture. They're generally not as intelligent as humans in the ways we choose to measure intelligence (although, amusingly, some are cleverer in particular (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-510260/Im-chimpion--Ape-trounces-best-human-world-memory-competition.html) areas (http://www.channel4.com/news/articles/science_technology/chimps+cleverer+than+humans/1139857)), but the idea that humans are somehow qualitatively completely different is no longer sustainable - no more than the idea that homosexual behaviour is 'not natural' (it's now apparent that they're all at it (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_animals_displaying_homosexual_behavior), and humans are no longer the exception even in this).

[dlorde]

.
[opinion=mine_not_yours]
A "Soul" (as I understand the concept) is that immortal part of a person wherein lies (2) the knowledge of Good and evil, and (2) the permanent record of that human's every thought and deed.Does it physically exist, or is it just a metaphysical concept?

Animals do not understand the concept of "Good and Evil."I can't agree with this - animals can know right and wrong by the terms of their social interactions - they can show altruistic behaviour, cheat and deceive, and collectively punish wrongdoers. Even birds have been show to have a simple concept of mind (see What do crows know about what crows know? (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6VRT-4PG33JY-R&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_searchStrId=954620743&_rerunOrigin=google&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=0971c8a60a1f2f6f830864f3e5d85e57)).

[Magyar]

An animal is stupid

First, everything we know and have evidence for based on ToE this statement is pattently [i]stupid [i/]


But lets pretend for a second the we buy in the whole jeebus myth and Genesis.


If there was such a thing as a soul, an animal sure as hell wouldn't have one.

according the buybull, sky daddy created all the critters and they all dwelt in eden. There was no need for all the critters to help Adam and Eve because they didn't work they didn't need to grow anything because it was ALL there in Eden. The critters all got along and even tigers and lions and bears oh my didn't eat meat.


THEN, eve does her thing with the apple, and skydady punishes HER, Adam and all the rest of us. OK, fine. But then Skydaddy punishes snakes too EVEN though all they ever did was get picked by the devil as a disguise! OK, kind fo weird but I guess I could come up with some explaination - maybe snakes are really really easy to morph into and that's why the devil picked it, sky daddy didn't want this to happen again so he cast the snakes out too. we'll pretend that that makes sense.

BUT, here is where you reallt lose me.
According to YOU. Your Skydaddy created all these critters, deemed them good enough let them live in paradise. But then do to something they had NOTHING to do with, not only got booted out of paradise but got altered to be killers (in the case af carnies) and victims in case of prey for EVER! Then to top it all OFF, they can NEVER get back because they have no soul.


And this is the F8kup thing people worship as a creator?!

[kerikiwi]

Good point. All right, how to put it better? An animal is stupid. We look at it and we see whatever we project onto it of our own, human emotions but as Werner Herzog said of a grizzly bear, its blank stare only contains a half-bored interest in food. It isn't capable of intelligent thought and it isn't capable of real emotion.

If there was such a thing as a soul, an animal sure as hell wouldn't have one.

No doubt we are guilty of anthropomorphism to varying degrees, and some of us also are stuck with the concept of humans as the centre of creation.
On what do you base your assertion that animals are stupid?
Werner Herzog had nothing but prejudice to base his assertion on.
There is plenty of evidence that animals may well be capable of intelligent thought and 'real' emotion.

[Tricky]

The main qualification for getting into heaven is slavering worship and obedience, at least according to the Heaven-touting Christians I've read here, so I'd say dogs are naturals for heaven. Cats, not a prayer.

[dlorde]

... But then Skydaddy punishes snakes too EVEN though all they ever did was get picked by the devil as a disguise! OK, kind fo weird but I guess I could come up with some explaination - maybe snakes are really really easy to morph into and that's why the devil picked it, sky daddy didn't want this to happen again so he cast the snakes out too. we'll pretend that that makes sense.
I love the bit where he decrees that the snake will 'henceforth crawl on its belly in the dust of the earth' - which must have come as a bit of a relief to the snakes, being legless creatures and all... not really much of a punishment. Did he decree that, for their sins, humans will henceforth walk upon two legs? No.

[dlorde]

The main qualification for getting into heaven is slavering worship and obedience, at least according to the Heaven-touting Christians I've read here, so I'd say dogs are naturals for heaven. Cats, not a prayer.I'm beginning to wonder whether it might be more fun in 'the other place' (odd how people say that - perhaps they think it's unlucky to say 'hell' - a bit like thespians and 'the Scottish play').

Do animals go to hell?

[I Ratant]

I love the bit where he decrees that the snake will 'henceforth crawl on its belly in the dust of the earth' - which must have come as a bit of a relief to the snakes, being legless creatures and all... not really much of a punishment. Did he decree that, for their sins, humans will henceforth walk upon two legs? No.
.
Considering the problems inherent with the bipedal gait, maybe that was the punishment!

[I Ratant]

I'm beginning to wonder whether it might be more fun in 'the other place' (odd how people say that - perhaps they think it's unlucky to say 'hell' - a bit like thespians and 'the Scottish play').

Do animals go to hell?
.
Robert Silverberg had a series of sci-fi novels based on "the other place", because that's where all the interesting people are!
"Gilgamesh in Hell" was the first in the series, and brought the Big G to my attention.
Larry Niven's "Riverworld" was similarly themed but he included -everybody-!

[HansMustermann]

Animals do not understand the concept of "Good and Evil." trained dogs, dolphins, and other trained animals do not perform their trick out of a desire to make the lives of others better. Instead, they can only be trained through a quid-pro-quo method. Do a backflip, get a treat. Jump through a hoop, get a treat. Piddle on the floor or bite a human, and feel pain. Simple.

At least mammals have mirror neurons just like humans do. I.e., they have empathy just like humans do.

E.g., when two cats or two dogs fight, they're perfectly equipped to take each other apart. Those teeth and claws could rip through another cat just as easily as they rip through a rat or bunny. But they don't actually kill each other.

Both for dogs and for cats, combat is mostly a show-off business, or in human terms "pulling the punches." They show each other what they could do.

And invariably there are built in rules for signalling an "I give up". And the other party _will_ immediately cease the aggression in that case. They have signals for, basically, "I'm already in bad shape, I'm no threat, leave me alone" and they are actually respected.

Only if the defeated can't leave the territory of the other (e.g., because you put two cats in the same room without getting them used to each other, and the loser physically can't leave that room) is the violence gradually escalated to the point where serious injury or even death are possible. And even then, by accident, not by intentional murder.

Why? Because of those mirror neurons. They're wired to, basically, treat the other cat like they'd like to be treated themselves. Sorta.

Considering that that's the base of most human morality too, what base do you have to decree that animals are somehow less moral?

From where I stand, it looks to me like the human sense of good and evil... was mostly a bunch of rationalizations for when it's OK, and indeed expected, to act _against_ your natural empaty. It's not as much about "knowing good and evil" it's just about when to act evil and pretend that it's something good. Against your natural, built-in empathy that you have like any other animal.

That "knowing good and evil" is what got us ideas like that it's honourable to slaughter prisoners, take slaves, kill, cheat, lie, torture, etc. That "knowing good and evil" is behind the abomination called "honour killings."

In fact, all that being able to rationalize good and evil has brought us is... evil.

Why should a human deserve eternal bliss for having done only a little more evil than he was wired for, but a cat who made no rationalizations and followed its natural empathy shouldn't?

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

No doubt we are guilty of anthropomorphism to varying degrees, and some of us also are stuck with the concept of humans as the centre of creation.
On what do you base your assertion that animals are stupid?
Werner Herzog had nothing but prejudice to base his assertion on.
There is plenty of evidence that animals may well be capable of intelligent thought and 'real' emotion.

Most animals- the vast majority- cannot even count to 10. They don't even know what 10 is.

Humans may be very imperfect and very flawed but they are certainly of a much higher order than animals, even the smarter ones.

First, everything we know and have evidence for based on ToE this statement is pattently [i]stupid [i/]


But lets pretend for a second the we buy in the whole jeebus myth and Genesis.



according the buybull, sky daddy created all the critters and they all dwelt in eden. There was no need for all the critters to help Adam and Eve because they didn't work they didn't need to grow anything because it was ALL there in Eden. The critters all got along and even tigers and lions and bears oh my didn't eat meat.


THEN, eve does her thing with the apple, and skydady punishes HER, Adam and all the rest of us. OK, fine. But then Skydaddy punishes snakes too EVEN though all they ever did was get picked by the devil as a disguise! OK, kind fo weird but I guess I could come up with some explaination - maybe snakes are really really easy to morph into and that's why the devil picked it, sky daddy didn't want this to happen again so he cast the snakes out too. we'll pretend that that makes sense.

BUT, here is where you reallt lose me.
According to YOU. Your Skydaddy created all these critters, deemed them good enough let them live in paradise. But then do to something they had NOTHING to do with, not only got booted out of paradise but got altered to be killers (in the case af carnies) and victims in case of prey for EVER! Then to top it all OFF, they can NEVER get back because they have no soul.


And this is the F8kup thing people worship as a creator?!


The way I understand it, God never invested animals with souls to start with. They too were punished for original sin, in a way, and I guess doomed to suffer and die but they had no consciousness to begin with, as Adam and Eve did.

Adam and Eve were responsible for themselves and responsible for animals as their masters but animals had no say in the matter and, after original sin, had no connection with humans any more.

[RoboTimbo]

Most animals- the vast majority- cannot even count to 10. They don't even know what 10 is.

Humans may be very imperfect and very flawed but they are certainly of a much higher order than animals, even the smarter ones.

The way I understand it, God never invested animals with souls to start with. They too were punished for original sin, in a way, and I guess doomed to suffer and die but they had no consciousness to begin with, as Adam and Eve did.

We can agree that animals have no soul, but for different reasons.

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

I'm an agnostic and don't buy into the creation story. I'm just saying, if one were to buy into the idea of souls, it would be mind boggling to believe your pet German shepherd has one.

[thaiboxerken]

Pastor Deacon Fred has a sermon on this very topic:

http://www.landoverbaptist.org/60second/2006/pets.mp3

[kerikiwi]

I'm an agnostic and don't buy into the creation story. I'm just saying, if one were to buy into the idea of souls, it would be mind boggling to believe your pet German shepherd has one.

What would be mind-boggling is to believe in souls.
You don't appear to be an agnostic, judging from what you have to say about god investing humans with souls and Adam and Eve and original sin.

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

I was just explaining the religious point of view since someone brought up the place of animals in Genesis, not saying I believed in it.

And my point all along has been "Well, if we momentarily buy into souls, Genesis, Jesus for the sake of argument, the idea that a being like your hamster goes to heaven is laughable."

From the secular point of view, yes, I don't think animals are anywhere near as worthy as people.

[kerikiwi]

And my point all along has been "Well, if we momentarily buy into souls, Genesis, Jesus for the sake of argument, the idea that a being like your hamster goes to heaven is laughable."

.

If we momentarily buy into any myth, that which goes against the myth is laughable. if we momentarily buy into my own religion the idea that my hamster would not go to heaven would be laughable.
The teachings of christianity regarding souls are totally irrelevant unless you actually do buy into those teachings.

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

There's crazy and then there is crazier. Humans going to heaven- pretty crazy.

Cats and dogs- if Christians ever had a funeral for their pet dog and lit candles and said prayers for him and paid for his name to be read aloud at Mass, atheists and Christians alike would think they lost their minds.

[HansMustermann]

Well, Shintoists wouldn't, or for that matter no other flavour of animism would. Neither would Buddhists, or not for the same reason.

There is nothing intrinsic or self-obvious about the "animals have no souls" idea. On the contrary, at one point it was the default assumption that they _do_.

Egyptians embalmed their deceased cats for the afterlife, and buried them with supplies for the road. (A couple of embalmed mice:p) Not only that, but they generally embalmed Fluffy with the expensive recipe reserved for pharaohs and nobility, while they themselves would get the cheap version and hope it holds until their Ka (soul) gets to Osiris.

Nobody would laugh there at the idea of embalming a cat, burying it, or bringing a priest to say a prayer for the cat.

[dlorde]

.
Robert Silverberg had a series of sci-fi novels based on "the other place", because that's where all the interesting people are!
"Gilgamesh in Hell" was the first in the series, and brought the Big G to my attention.
Larry Niven's "Riverworld" was similarly themed but he included -everybody-!
Robert Silverberg & Larry Niven... that takes me back - I used to read a lot of their stuff. I don't explicitly remember stories about 'the other place', but that's probably where the idea came from :D

[dlorde]

Most animals- the vast majority- cannot even count to 10. They don't even know what 10 is.They don't need to, so why would they? Certainly some primates are far better at counting than the average human student, and I suspect that a significant proportion of humans can't count to ten. Not because they're 'stupid', but because in their environment it isn't a skill they require.

Humans may be very imperfect and very flawed but they are certainly of a much higher order than animals, even the smarter ones.I think if you learned more about how animals in the wild behave and what they can do, you'd revise your opinion about the degree of difference.

The way I understand it, God never invested animals with souls to start with.What makes you think that? Where does that understanding come from?

They too were punished for original sin, in a way, and I guess doomed to suffer and die but they had no consciousness to begin with, as Adam and Eve did.Why would a just God punish creatures for someone else's sin?

Adam and Eve were responsible for themselves and responsible for animals as their masters but animals had no say in the matter and, after original sin, had no connection with humans any more.No connection? What about sheep, cattle, and domesticated animals?

[I Ratant]

...
Why would a just God punish creatures for someone else's sin?
...
.
Ona cause the god of the Book isn't "just", he's a psychopath.
Had all animals been herbivores before the Fall, then they presumably, being "intelligently designed" to survive on herbs, have digestive systems that handle greens.
When the "change" to carnivorism occurred at the Fall, the digestive systems of the former herbivores would be overkill for a carnivorous life.
The Panda for instance, is descended from carnivores.. bears actually, which are omnivorous, yet the Panda is totally herbivorous, relying on bamboo for its food.
It has a most inefficient gut for that lifestyle! It defecates almost as much as it consumes. Had its gut been "intelligently designed" from the git-go, with the multiple chambers and lengthy intestines of the average herbeater, why would it have the gut of a carnivore, which is ill-suited for the life style?
And where at in the fossil record would one find those herbivorous lions, tigers, wolves, allosauri?
They ain't none.

[Fnord]

Does it physically exist, or is it just a metaphysical concept?
.


The soul is immaterial. So for believers it is real, but for non-believers it is only a metaphorical/metaphysical concept.



I can't agree with this - animals can know right and wrong by the terms of their social interactions - they can show altruistic behaviour, cheat and deceive, and collectively punish wrongdoers. Even birds have been show to have a simple concept of mind (see What do crows know about what crows know? (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6VRT-4PG33JY-R&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_searchStrId=954620743&_rerunOrigin=google&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=0971c8a60a1f2f6f830864f3e5d85e57)).
.


You are free to disagree. As far as what or how an animal (non-human) thinks, such claims are speculative at best. Maternal/paternal instinct and a territorial imperative can explain their behaviors. Both Skinner and Pavlov demonstrated conditioned behavior as a means of training animals to preferred behaviors.

Of course, in all of this, any argument for or against animals going to Heaven (or Hell) begs the questions of whether or not such things as Heaven, Hell, and Souls even exist in the first place.



Prove the existence of any one, and then we can move from the realm of opinion and conjecture to the realm of fact and principle.

[threejr]

There's crazy and then there is crazier. Humans going to heaven- pretty crazy.

Cats and dogs- if Christians ever had a funeral for their pet dog and lit candles and said prayers for him and paid for his name to be read aloud at Mass, atheists and Christians alike would think they lost their minds.

I have a friend who has two dogs who are like her children. If she had a funeral for them, lit candles, prayed for them and had her minister mention them, it would not bother me (an atheist) in the least. She loves those dogs-why shouldn't she do this if it is what she wants?

Our local Catholic church has a blessing of the animals every year. Again, if people desire to have their animals blessed, who am I to question?

And finally-you have to PAY to have a name read at mass? Really??:eek:

[dlorde]

As far as what or how an animal (non-human) thinks, such claims are speculative at best. Maternal/paternal instinct and a territorial imperative can explain their behaviors. Both Skinner and Pavlov demonstrated conditioned behavior as a means of training animals to preferred behaviors.Much the same has been said about other humans with different languages and cultures - in fact, such things were said about 'primitive' tribal cultures until relatively recently - oh, and humans can be conditioned just as effectively as other animals. Objectively, we're really not that different - a few small changes in evolution's lottery turned out to give us a runaway advantage.

Of course, in all of this, any argument for or against animals going to Heaven (or Hell) begs the questions of whether or not such things as Heaven, Hell, and Souls even exist in the first place.
Of course :)

Prove the existence of any one, and then we can move from the realm of opinion and conjecture to the realm of fact and principle.Quite - but what would such proof look like?

[runnah]

So if I go to heaven and animals go aswell what would happen if I killed and ate a cow that was in heaven? Would I go to hell?

[I Ratant]

So if I go to heaven and animals go aswell what would happen if I killed and ate a cow that was in heaven? Would I go to hell?
.
Whatcha gonna kill it with?
Strangle it with a string from your harp?
Smother it in your robe?
I bet there's a way, if there's a will, but it might be difficult!

[Marduk]

.
Whatcha gonna kill it with?


how about strangling it with a talking snake ?
:D

[Soapy Sam]

No.

[Marduk]

ramming its head in the pearly gates until its skull is crushed ?
:D

[Whiplash]

I don't believe in people heaven, but I do believe in doggie heaven.


Lister: How can you just lie back and accept it?
Kryten: Oh, it's not the end for me, sir, it's just the beginning. I have served my human masters, now I can look forward to my reward in silicon heaven.
Lister: [Stunned pause] Silicon WHAT?
Kryten: Surely you've heard of silicon heaven?
Lister: Has it got anything to do with being stuck opposite Brigitte Nielsen in a packed lift?
Kryten: No, sir. It's the electronic afterlife. It's the gathering place for the souls of all electronic equipment. Robots, toasters, calculators. It's our final resting place.
Lister: I don't mean to say anything out of place here, Kryten, but that is completely whacko Jacko. There is no such thing as 'Silicon Heaven'.
Kryten: Then where do all the calculators go?
Lister: They don't go anywhere. They just die.
Kryten: Surely you believe that God is in all things? Aren't you a pantheist?
Lister: Yeah, but I just don't think it applies to kitchen utensils. I'm not a FRYING pantheist. Machines do not have souls. Computers and calculators do not have an afterlife. You don't get hairdryers with tiny little wings, sitting on clouds and playing harps.
Kryten: But of course you do. For is it not written in the Electronic Bible, "The Iron shall lie down with the Lamp".

[Whiplash]

The main qualification for getting into heaven is slavering worship and obedience, at least according to the Heaven-touting Christians I've read here, so I'd say dogs are naturals for heaven. Cats, not a prayer.


I thought it was just to accept Jesus as your personal savior?

[Franklin]

Great, now I have to put up with people's barking dogs in Heaven.

[Marduk]

Lister: How can you just lie back and accept it?
Kryten: Oh, it's not the end for me, sir, it's just the beginning. I have served my human masters, now I can look forward to my reward in silicon heaven.
Lister: [Stunned pause] Silicon WHAT?
Kryten: Surely you've heard of silicon heaven?
Lister: Has it got anything to do with being stuck opposite Brigitte Nielsen in a packed lift?
Kryten: No, sir. It's the electronic afterlife. It's the gathering place for the souls of all electronic equipment. Robots, toasters, calculators. It's our final resting place.
Lister: I don't mean to say anything out of place here, Kryten, but that is completely whacko Jacko. There is no such thing as 'Silicon Heaven'.
Kryten: Then where do all the calculators go?
Lister: They don't go anywhere. They just die.
Kryten: Surely you believe that God is in all things? Aren't you a pantheist?
Lister: Yeah, but I just don't think it applies to kitchen utensils. I'm not a FRYING pantheist. Machines do not have souls. Computers and calculators do not have an afterlife. You don't get hairdryers with tiny little wings, sitting on clouds and playing harps.
Kryten: But of course you do. For is it not written in the Electronic Bible, "The Iron shall lie down with the Lamp".

uhuh, I detect scepticism, so answer me this, if silicon heaven doesn't exist
where do all the calculators go ?
:D

[Whiplash]

They just... die! ;)

[I Ratant]

Yeah, sob!
I have a TI SR-51A (circa 1973) that powers up nicely when I find a battery that will fit.
The little red lights sparkle! :)
My last Super-8 Camcorder will -barely- play back the tapes it made 20 years ago, but not even will it record any more!
I have to transfer those tapes to DVDs ASAP.
It was a pretty good high-end Sony too.

[Geezer]

"Do animals go to heaven?"

Well we know that a few has...among others Laika and that chimp NASA used.

[Ragnarok]

Great, now I have to put up with people's barking dogs in Heaven.

Actually, they can talk like you and me in heaven. In hell they bark all day.

[Tormac]

My cat Mr. G has assured me that no animals are allowed in heaven.

No dogs, hamsters, bunny rabbits, humans, or any other household animal are allowed in heaven. Its only cats there.

[Good Lt]

I don't believe in people heaven, but I do believe in doggie heaven.If any creature on Earth deserved to go to heaven, it's man's best friend.

Hear, hear. :)

[epeeist]

I'm very, very far from being an expert in theology or ontology, but as briefly as possible, my understanding is that (in the Catholic view at least) it is considered that animals are created by God, but certainly not in the image of God (i.e. not being reasoning creatures with free will), and have spirit in a sense but not souls and should still be humanely treated and so forth. Some churches bless animals on St. Francis' day, etc.

Most (?) Christian faiths believe in eventual bodily resurrection (even though a surprising number of Christians seem ignorant of that!). The manner and scope of that resurrection is unknown, in the sense that God might choose to restore animals to life notwithstanding their lack of souls. So as I understand it the more complicated but more correct answer for an observant Catholic (and some other Christians) to e.g. little Timmy asking "will I see Laddie again in Heaven?" would be "you probably won't see him in Heaven, Timmy, but you may hope to see him restored to life after the day of judgment and your bodily resurrection."

Perhaps someone more familiar with Hinduism or another religion incorporating belief in reincarnation in non-human forms could comment also.

[Beerina]

I do not disagree with what you say. Hence my suggestion in the OP that just letting their little conscious souls get snuffed out doesn't seem fair.