Just watched "Harold and Maude" on DVD... [Archive]

Skeptic

7th December 2003, 07:21 AM

I was writing tongue-in-cheek. Actually, I like this movie A LOT: great acting, original and interesting plot, etc.

I was merely noting that it is an absurdist fantasy, with its "social commentary" and "philosophical point" being (deliberately) over-the-top.

To my amazement, people try to look "through" the absurd fantasy into the "real message" of the movie... which is a bit like writing a theology book based on LIFE OF BRIAN.

Cleopatra

7th December 2003, 12:09 PM

I don't know why I was thinking about "Harold and Maude" lately. I think it was because I read about a suicide of a young man.

I haven't seen the film, I have seen it as play in the theatre and I loved it. It's one of the most well-composed hymns to life and an accurate account of the irrational "phaenomenon" that is called "falling in love".

Another reason I loved it was because Maude reminds me of my grandmother.

When I saw this thread I searched Amazon to find a copy of the DVD but it's a region 1 dvd and I won't be able to see it. Pity.

Maybe we should start a thread about the movies we see on DVD so as to exchange ideas, opinions etc,etc.

epepke

7th December 2003, 03:50 PM

Originally posted by Skeptic
To my amazement, people try to look "through" the absurd fantasy into the "real message" of the movie... which is a bit like writing a theology book based on LIFE OF BRIAN.

I have a friend who is an evangelical Christian, and he pointed out that Life of Brian was really quite accurate with respect to the growth industry of Messiahs around that time.

TruthSeeker

7th December 2003, 08:09 PM

Originally posted by epepke

I have a friend who is an evangelical Christian, and he pointed out that Life of Brian was really quite accurate with respect to the growth industry of Messiahs around that time.

I used to know an evangelical who was forbidden (by his church) to watch Life of Brian...blasphemy, ya know?

Mark

8th December 2003, 06:18 AM

Originally posted by Skeptic
I was writing tongue-in-cheek. Actually, I like this movie A LOT: great acting, original and interesting plot, etc.

I was merely noting that it is an absurdist fantasy, with its "social commentary" and "philosophical point" being (deliberately) over-the-top.

To my amazement, people try to look "through" the absurd fantasy into the "real message" of the movie... which is a bit like writing a theology book based on LIFE OF BRIAN.

Living life to the fullest is over the top? Why?

Skeptic

11th December 2003, 07:14 AM

Originally posted by Mark

Living life to the fullest is over the top? Why?

(WARNING: SPOILER ALERT!)

Well, it isn't, but when the two main protagonists for "living life to the fullest" are:

a). an immortal who repeatedly commits suicide unsuccesfully because he "enjoys being dead" and

b). a woman who kills herself on her 80th birthday because she doesn't like her age...

...I'd say the "live life to the fullest" message is tongue-in-cheek, a bit like Brian's "is it the secret of eternal life?".

Mark

11th December 2003, 07:26 AM

Originally posted by Skeptic

(WARNING: SPOILER ALERT!)

Well, it isn't, but when the two main protagonists for "living life to the fullest" are:

a). an immortal who repeatedly commits suicide unsuccesfully because he "enjoys being dead" and

b). a woman who kills herself on her 80th birthday because she doesn't like her age...

...I'd say the "live life to the fullest" message is tongue-in-cheek, a bit like Brian's "is it the secret of eternal life?".

Uh...I think you'd better watch it again. There is no "immortal" in the film; Harold fakes his death several times because he is afraid to live. (The self immolation scene is hysterical)

Maude certainly doesn't kill herself because she doesn't "like her age." She was a survivor of German concentration camps, for goodness sake! (A subtle point you may have missed, I grant you.) If you had ever been the caregiver for someone with Alzheimer's or Parkinsons (I have) you would understand the point better. There does come a point when clinging to life is like a miser clutching a pile of coins that he will never, ever use.

In the end, Harold goes off to live and be happy. Maude's legacy lives on through him. "Things grow and change and die and turn into something else," as Maude said to Harold in the field of daisys.

Cleopatra

11th December 2003, 08:31 AM

Yeap, exactly as Mark said it :)

Harold is calling for people's real attention with those suicides of his, he grew up in a family that nobody taugh him anything really important, like how to love the trees, how to appreciate the starts and the sea. He commits those silly suicide attempts in order to attract his mother real attention who exhausts her love towards him just by spending money and looking for the best bride for him.

Maude on the other hand had seen everything. She had experienced the cruelest and the brightest side of human's nature, she talked to the trees, she adored the sea, she committed suicide just to let Harold live.

Does the film has the final scene in the cemetary where Harold plays saxophone to Maude's grave or this was the end at the theatrical version?

Mark

11th December 2003, 08:37 AM

Originally posted by Cleopatra
Yeap, exactly as Mark said it :)

Harold is calling for people's real attention with those suicides of his, he grew up in a family that nobody taugh him anything really important, like how to love the trees, how to appreciate the starts and the sea. He commits those silly suicide attempts in order to attract his mother real attention who exhausts her love towards him just by spending money and looking for the best bride for him.

Maude on the other hand had seen everything. She had experienced the cruelest and the brightest side of human's nature, she talked to the trees, she adored the sea, she committed suicide just to let Harold live.

Does the film has the final scene in the cemetary where Harold plays saxophone to Maude's grave or this was the end at the theatrical version?

He plays the banjo (which Maude gave him) while looking down at his deliberately crashed Jaguar/hearse; he then walks off, still playing, dancing, and ready to live.

I don't think Maude killed herself so much for Harold's sake, as she did simply because it was time to go out with dignity. I do think her refusal to reconsider the decision was for Harold's sake. A rather fine distinction, I suppose...

Mark

11th December 2003, 08:42 AM

Btw, did you see Bud Cort in the movie "Dogma?" (Another great film, btw) Wow...the years have not been particularly kind to ol' Harold. Great to see him working again, though.

Cleopatra

11th December 2003, 08:55 AM

Originally posted by Mark
He plays the banjo (which Maude gave him) while looking down at his deliberately crashed Jaguar/hearse; he then walks off, still playing, dancing, and ready to live.

I don't think Maude killed herself so much for Harold's sake, as she did simply because it was time to go out with dignity. I do think her refusal to reconsider the decision was for Harold's sake. A rather fine distinction, I suppose...

Arggggggg I want to see the film!!!!!!!!

Maybe you are right! It was time for her to go anyway and but it wouldn't be appropriate for a person at her age to be involved with such a young man. I think that Maude's character would find it inappropriate.

No, I haven't seen the film Dogma.

Mark

11th December 2003, 09:28 AM

Originally posted by Cleopatra

No, I haven't seen the film Dogma.

You must! Another very quirky, funny, enjoybale, thought provoking film. Also very crude (Hey, it's a Jay and Silent Bob film, after all).

Foofer

11th December 2003, 09:57 AM

I loved Harold & Maude but I haven't seen it in a very long time. After reading this thread, I am really wanting to watch it again.

Dogma is very funny. A bit too pro-god for me, but definitely anti-religion.

TruthSeeker

11th December 2003, 10:15 AM

Originally posted by Mark
Btw, did you see Bud Cort in the movie "Dogma?" (Another great film, btw) Wow...the years have not been particularly kind to ol' Harold. Great to see him working again, though.

I didn't recognize him. Who did he play?

Foofer

11th December 2003, 10:18 AM

He was the Earthly form that god took to play skee-ball. He was beaten up in the opening scene and spent the rest of the movie in a coma.

Mark

11th December 2003, 10:24 AM

Originally posted by TruthSeeker

I didn't recognize him. Who did he play?

"God." As the old man in the begining who got beaten into a coma.

Edited to add:
Hey, Foofer beat me to it!

TruthSeeker

11th December 2003, 12:10 PM

Originally posted by Mark

"God." As the old man in the begining who got beaten into a coma.

Edited to add:
Hey, Foofer beat me to it!

Thanks.

Skeptic

12th December 2003, 06:58 PM

(AGAIN, SPOILER ALERT!)

Er, I still say it's a spoof. C'mon, people, when the uncle--Gen. MacArthur's "right hand man"--is missing his right hand?

When, as part of the treatment for hanging himself, he has to talk to this uncle... who tells him that "what this country needs is more Nathan Hales", saluting a picture of Hale with the noose around his neck?

As for "faking" his death, he mysteriously appears at the top of the cliff, holding a banjo, after the car he drives crashes into the shore. How about the suicide with the samurai sword, where his date, who copies him, of course DOES die?

C'mon, people... again, I LOVED the movie. It's quirky, original, very funny, and pokes fun at a lot of annoying things. But to take it seriously as a deep message about life...

epepke

12th December 2003, 07:29 PM

Originally posted by Skeptic
(AGAIN, SPOILER ALERT!)

Er, I still say it's a spoof.

It's a burlesque, which is the kind of spoof with more serious intent than non-spoofs. C.f. Dr. Strangelove. Randy Newman, Andrew Dice Clay, Richard Pryor and Goldie Hawn in the 60's, Steppin Fetchitt, etc.

It must be hard to grok burlesque, because I notice that few people manage it.

Mark

13th December 2003, 07:00 AM

Originally posted by Skeptic
(AGAIN, SPOILER ALERT!)

Er, I still say it's a spoof. C'mon, people, when the uncle--Gen. MacArthur's "right hand man"--is missing his right hand?

When, as part of the treatment for hanging himself, he has to talk to this uncle... who tells him that "what this country needs is more Nathan Hales", saluting a picture of Hale with the noose around his neck?

As for "faking" his death, he mysteriously appears at the top of the cliff, holding a banjo, after the car he drives crashes into the shore. How about the suicide with the samurai sword, where his date, who copies him, of course DOES die?

C'mon, people... again, I LOVED the movie. It's quirky, original, very funny, and pokes fun at a lot of annoying things. But to take it seriously as a deep message about life...

What it was spoofing was America's culture of death, by overstating the case. Strange how you could so totally miss the point of a movie like this...

What is also strange is that America as a culture seems to have come full circle. Sad, really.

RSLancastr

13th December 2003, 03:29 PM

Originally posted by Skeptic
As for "faking" his death, he mysteriously appears at the top of the cliff, holding a banjo, after the car he drives crashes into the shore.The same thing has been done in about a jillion movies. We are to assume that he jumped out in time. I agree that it could have been clearer. But again, after faking his suicide so many times in the film, it is pretty obvious that he used yet another stage/film trick to do this one.

How about the suicide with the samurai sword, where his date, who copies him, of course DOES die?Uh... did you really SEE the movie?

It was a "stage sword" - the blade of the sword was on a spring, so that when he pretended to plunge it into himself, the blade retracts up into the handle. The "actress" date sees that he is faking it, and even tests the blade on her hand (we see it spring into the handle) before PRETENDING to kill herself, while ham acting.

Skeptic

13th December 2003, 04:10 PM

It's a burlesque, which is the kind of spoof with more serious intent than non-spoofs. C.f. Dr. Strangelove.

Fair enough; that, actually, is what I was trying to say...

Skeptic

13th December 2003, 04:12 PM

The same thing has been done in about a jillion movies. We are to assume that he jumped out in time.

Oh come on! The camera shows the whole trip of the car. It shows quite clearly that nobody jumped out. Then he just appears, out of nowhere, on top of the cliff.

epepke

13th December 2003, 07:30 PM

He just weighed the gas pedal down. It was a ceremony of disposing of his former lifestyle, not an almost-suicide.

Mark

14th December 2003, 06:37 AM

Originally posted by Skeptic
The same thing has been done in about a jillion movies. We are to assume that he jumped out in time.

Oh come on! The camera shows the whole trip of the car. It shows quite clearly that nobody jumped out. Then he just appears, out of nowhere, on top of the cliff.

Honestly, how someone could watch a film and so completely misunderstand it is amazing. I suppose it may have to do with the fact that film makers in those days were fond of using subtle elements...you had to actually pay close attention to what was happening. As opposed to today's MTV style films, where everything is in your face and rarely is an individual shot on the screen for more than 2-4 seconds; subtlety is becoming a lost art in our culture. Sad.

I suggest you watch the film again...you may notice little things like Maude's tattoo from a German concentration camp; the "clicking" of the theatrical dagger spring as the actress tests it before acting out a suicide scene (and out-weirding Harold in the process); Maude's comment to Harold about his talents and her experience helping to avoid the draft (why would he care if he were immortal?); the whole time-inversion element of the final car sequence that clearly indicates we weren't being shown every last second of the drive, and that Harold easily had time to get out of the car before it crashed...

I could go on and on. Try actually watching the bloody film and I think you'll come away with a far different interpretation.

DrMatt

15th December 2003, 08:13 AM

I think I've only seen this one 8 times.
I came away with one message:

There's a million things to be, you know that there are.

kookbreaker

15th December 2003, 11:27 AM

Originally posted by Mark

I suggest you watch the film again...you may notice little things like Maude's tattoo from a German concentration camp; the "clicking" of the theatrical dagger spring as the actress tests it before acting out a suicide scene (and out-weirding Harold in the process); Maude's comment to Harold about his talents and her experience helping to avoid the draft (why would he care if he were immortal?); the whole time-inversion element of the final car sequence that clearly indicates we weren't being shown every last second of the drive, and that Harold easily had time to get out of the car before it crashed...

There's also the time he's meeting another prospective girl and starts whacking on his 'arm' with a meat cleaver. After two or three blows it is painfully obvious that the 'arm' isn't even attached to him.

The immolation scene shows a slump in the sheets where Harold slips out like any stage magician.

The car is shown going over the cliff right after going down a road. I don't think he needed to jump out, there's just a conveniently missing scene where he just bricks the accelerator.

kookbreaker

15th December 2003, 11:29 AM

When I was in college, several people said I reminded them of Harold. And I wasn't dating any 80-year olds.

You can stop inching away from me now.

RSLancastr

15th December 2003, 12:41 PM

Originally posted by kookbreaker
When I was in college, several people said I reminded them of Harold. And I wasn't dating any 80-year olds.

You can stop inching away from me now. Did you also remind them of Brewster McCloud?

Checkmite

15th December 2003, 01:35 PM

Originally posted by epepke
Great movie; I'm surprised you didn't get it.

It's about embracing life.

Since this was posted, I've discovered that if nobody can understand what a movie is about, using this phrase will elevate you to the status of "cinematic philisophical mage" in their eyes, and they will afterwards always want to ask you for an opinion of a movie.

RSLancastr

16th December 2003, 12:36 PM

Originally posted by Joshua Korosi
Since this was posted, I've discovered that if nobody can understand what a movie is about, using this phrase will elevate you to the status of "cinematic philisophical mage" in their eyes, and they will afterwards always want to ask you for an opinion of a movie. I've found it to be quite effective when describing Russ Meyer films.

DrMatt

5th January 2004, 07:58 AM

I just checked the photos of Bud Cort at IMDB. Actually, I think he HAS aged remarkably well. He even seems to still have the same impish smile, 30 years later.

Mark

5th January 2004, 08:10 AM

Originally posted by DrMatt
I just checked the photos of Bud Cort at IMDB. Actually, I think he HAS aged remarkably well. He even seems to still have the same impish smile, 30 years later.

Well, since he is alive and well, I have to agree on one level. On the other hand, I would never in a million years have recognized him. I agree about the smile, though.

Luke T.

5th January 2004, 02:35 PM

Harold and Maude is a fun movie. Maybe even great. I am halfway between Skeptic's opinion that it isn't all that deep and those that think it is.

I saw it a very long time ago (20-some years ago?) and two things stick out in my mind whenever the movie is mentioned. The first one is the scene with the priest asking Harold how he can have sex with an old woman and starts gagging at the thought.

The second one is when Harold makes one of those cheap devotion coins at the fairway and gives it to Maude, who promptly throws it in the water. At the expression of his shock, Maude says, "I will always know where it is."

Perfect.

phildonnia

6th January 2004, 11:17 AM

I don't know what y'all are talking about. I saw a "deeper meaning" the first time I watched, without even trying.

The kid is obviously obsessed with death, and eventually realizes it's import, and decides to enjoy life. (Maude, Hearse/Jaguar = death, Banjo = enjoy life).

It's interesting to compare to Poe's "A Premature Burial", or the movie "Castaway".

Mark

6th January 2004, 09:55 PM

Originally posted by phildonnia
I don't know what y'all are talking about. I saw a "deeper meaning" the first time I watched, without even trying.

The kid is obviously obsessed with death, and eventually realizes it's import, and decides to enjoy life. (Maude, Hearse/Jaguar = death, Banjo = enjoy life).

It's interesting to compare to Poe's "A Premature Burial", or the movie "Castaway".

Me, too.