CUT COLUMN - What should I cover?

[Edx]

http://img199.imageshack.us/img199/1967/911column.jpg




Im going to do the cut column claim in Zeitgeist next, I know what I will put in but if anyone has any points that you think I might miss or you think I should definitely remember to include to debunk it please post here!

Thanks!

(previous video here) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCj8X2glIrA)

[dtugg]

Are you going to show pictures of workers using torches to cut columns, just the same as that one was?

[Josarhus]

I don't know if this helps:

http://11-settembre.blogspot.com/2007/04/real-world-tests-cut-through-steel.html

[beachnut]

It was cut after 911. If they can't figure that out they have no rational thinking capabilities. The clear cut lie that Jones used and Gage uses proving they are both frauds.

[Minadin]

The Italian blog was / is a great resource for this topic.

Also, we had some discussion a little while ago as to whether that column was actually cut at an angle, and standing up straight, or leaning over, and cut perpendicular to its length, or something in between. Here:

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=140002

Also, some discussion here:

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=105821&page=3

and here: (same thread later on)

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=105821&page=10

[Edx]

Are you going to show pictures of workers using torches to cut columns, just the same as that one was?

Yes.

@Josarhus: Thanks for that I had seen it before but forgot where.

Thing is you can always rationalise it all away, I told one guy all this stuff and he said someone TOLD the cleanup workers to cut it like that in order to make the real cuts less suspicious. :rolleyes:

Zeitgeist uses a clip from a documentary where some demolitons guy suggests they cut the columns that way, any idea if thats true or what they actually do with the cuts? By way of completeness I'd like to include everything.

[ktesibios]

First, that the striations seen on the cut edges are called "drag lines" and are characteristic of cutting with an oxy-fuel torch, as seen here (http://www.esabna.com/EUWeb/OXY_handbook/589oxy21_5.htm)

Second, that slag is seen clinging to the inner faces of the upper cut and the one made in the side away from the camera, but on the outer face of the lower cut. This can be explained for the case of torch cutting, where the oxygen jet from the torch pushes the molten oxides to the far side of the cut- the upper cut and those on the two sides were made from the outside of the cut, the column was then bent (or allowed to bend) towards the photographer's position and the lower cut, which freed the column piece for removal, was done from the now-exposed inner face of that side.

Trying to explain that observation within a "the column was cut by thermite/nanothermite/a super-spicy NWO burrito" scenario requires either that the cutting devices behave rather inconsistently or that at least one was actually installed inside the column.

Third, that some of the slag which dripped onto the front face of the column has dripped onto the debris at the base of the column. Since that debris is the product of the building collapse, this is incontrovertible evidence that the collapse happened before the event which produced the slag. Therefore that NWO burrito must have been set off after the building collapsed and could not have contributed to causing the collapse.

[UNLoVedRebel]

I would go over the Munroe Effect (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munroe_effect)--something that would be obvious had a column been cut by a "kicker charge". Good look explaining it to these morons.

[Minadin]

There's a video of some of the cleanup workers where they talk about cutting these columns with torches as part of the cleanup process:

FfgSr2eBXls

[Edx]

@Minadin, thats really usefull. Thanks for that video!

@ktesibios: I'll have to look into it so I understand properly what you're saying!

If anyone has any information on the demolition guy putting "tape" on the steel column clip in zeitgeist I'd appreciate it.

[Justin39640]

@Minadin, thats really usefull. Thanks for that video!

@ktesibios: I'll have to look into it so I understand properly what you're saying!

If anyone has any information on the demolition guy putting "tape" on the steel column clip in zeitgeist I'd appreciate it.

you have that clip isolated or a time stamp?
id hate to go through all that woo again to find one scene lol

[Justin39640]

whoops posted this in the wrong spot b4
take 2 lol


we had this discussion the other day
DGM and i explained (as we both have torch exp him more than i) here (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=4873869&postcount=21)

it includes some things that long time debunkers overlooked that could help prove useful in future debates

[leftysergeant]

You might want this picture. It shows that the columns were cut at ground level, as ground level was lowered around them. On the right you can see columns laid side-by-side after cutting, awaiting removal to Fresh Kills.

Point out that the little round scoop out of the back of the classic picture is where the worker inserted the thermal lance to cut the front of the column out from the inside.

http://s23.photobucket.com/albums/b351/spanlib/th_01121617m.jpg

[Edx]

you have that clip isolated or a time stamp?
id hate to go through all that woo again to find one scene lol


Go here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OtZgwAGGByA

Then fast forward to 15:03 you will see the guy talking about cutting the columns at an angle that they imply is what happens in demolitions. It could be, Im just so used to quote mining that I dont know anymore!

I will check out all these links guy cheers.

@leftysergeant: If you have a higher quality picture that would be good, as it is I can hardly see what it is Im lookng at.

[Justin39640]

Go here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCj8X2glIrA

Then fast forward to 15:03 you will see the guy talking about cutting the columns at an angle that they imply is what happens in demolitions. It could be, Im just so used to quote mining that I dont know anymore!

I will check out all these links guy cheers.

@leftysergeant: If you have a higher quality picture that would be good, as it is I can hardly see what it is Im lookng at.

lol im confused
the video there is only 4 minutes lol

wrong link?
:confused:

[Edx]

lol im confused
the video there is only 4 minutes lol

wrong link?
:confused:

Damn! yes i did post the wrong link. *edits post*

Try this one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OtZgwAGGByA

fast forward to 15:03

[dtugg]

@leftysergeant: If you have a higher quality picture that would be good, as it is I can hardly see what it is Im lookng at.

I was able to find one for you using tineye.com which is a reverse image search engine and useful for this sort of thing.

http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford/wtc/01121617m.jpg

[Justin39640]

Damn! yes i did post the wrong link. *edits post*

Try this one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OtZgwAGGByA

fast forward to 15:03

ah much better
i may be mistaken but i think thats det-cord not tape
(theres charge lines going into it)

http://img523.imageshack.us/img523/1647/detcord.jpg

[Edx]

Nice one dtugg!

[Edx]

ah much better
i may be mistaken but i think thats det-cord not tape
(theres charge lines going into it)

Whatever it is. I wanna know what he is actually showing in this video, is this how demolition teams actually work?

We know they dont use thermite so the comparision is moot anyway. Still, I want to know more about the process they do use with this angle cut.

[Justin39640]

Whatever it is. I wanna know what he is actually showing in this video, is this how demolition teams actually work?

We know they dont use thermite so the comparision is moot anyway. Still, I want to know more about the process they do use with this angle cut.

is there a CD (for CD pros not woo) forum?
im sure there is
theres one for my industry lol (just 1)

[Justin39640]

eek i just tried searching for one
so much woo poured out i gave up

[Edx]

Thats a good idea I'll try and find a CD forum... hopefully there is one :) Maybe Ill email a few.

EDIT: I see what you mean about the woo lol

[Justin39640]

Thats a good idea I'll try and find a CD forum... hopefully there is one :) Maybe Ill email a few.

EDIT: I see what you mean about the woo lol

lol sounds like a nice simple idea
until you try it and find that the internet has been flooded by... "them"

when i first started "debunking" years ago it was easy to find relative yet obscure info or videos

it took me a a full 10 minutes the other day (shoulda just went to the links page der) to find a video that included the east penthouse collapsing

i think this is the reason that they think they have a lot of numbers in their ranks
3000 morons can generate a lot of links

typing in my screename results in over 2000 links
and im just 1 moron lol

its sad when the "truth?" is anything but

[triforcharity]

You might try implosionworld.com

I THINK they have a forum. If not, that site alone would be a plethoria of knowledge, and might point you in the direction of a forum that would be usefull.

Good job actually doing research.

[Justin39640]

You might try implosionworld.com

I THINK they have a forum. If not, that site alone would be a plethoria of knowledge, and might point you in the direction of a forum that would be usefull.

Good job actually doing research.

they did a great paper on the wtc thats available there
(i know you all read it lol)

[Gravy]

Hi Edx. The formerly-common claim (I haven't heard it made in a couple of years) is that this cut was made by thermite or some derivative. Note that the claimants will never show you what effects a thermite cut produces on thick steel, versus an oxyacetylene torch or thermic lance. You can scroll down on this page (http://wtc7lies.googlepages.com/stevene.jones%27thermitethermateclaims) of mine to see such comparisons.

Steven Jones used to have this cut column photo on the front page of his website. He removed it after it was pointed out how utterly stupid that claim was.

A couple of years ago, just for shytes and giggles, I researched which column that was, and was able to identify it and find post-collapse, pre-cut photos of it when it was much taller and connected to other columns. I never got around to putting that in publishable form. (Actually, I announced that I was waiting for Steven Jones to make a statement about the column, as he said he had new evidence about it. I was ready to bring the hammer down on him. He dropped the subject.) At at least I can tell you that there's hard evidence that the few truthers who still make claims about that column are kooks.

Bottom line: long ago before the film was made, most truthers dropped the 9/11 claims that were later regurgitated in Zeitgeist. Remember where the burden of proof lies.

[T.A.M.]

At at least I can tell you that there's hard evidence that the few truthers who still make claims about that column are kooks.


As opposed to the "nonkook" truther. That truther, however, is a rarely seen entity, that some say is mere legend.

TAM;)