The state as mass delusion....

[davehollis]

To The Governments & People of Earth:
Breach of rule 4 removed.

[~enigma~]

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/thum_13257485ad8c3edff3.jpg (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=12654)

[T.A.M.]

OMG.....that is the funniest thing I have read in a long time...

To the Free and Unashamed:

have fun!!!!

TAM:D

[~enigma~]

OMG.....that is the funniest thing I have read in a long time...

To the Free and Unashamed:

have fun!!!!

TAM:D
Want to borrow this?

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/thum_1325748527f32e37ea.jpg (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=12538)

[Cl1mh4224rd]

Not an original post by davehollis: http://www.google.com/search?q=%22We+claim+the+right+to+exist%2C+and+we+ will+defend+it.%22

[T.A.M.]

well the question is;

did davidhollis originate the post (ie is he the anonymous source that the WendyMcElroy site lists) or is he spamming without credit or linking, someone elses words?

TAM:)

[jhunter1163]

tl(oony):dr

[uk_dave]

Of course, it's entirely possible that the OP is a cointelpro disinfo exercise since, as we all know, there are no really insane people with access to the internet

[Zorglub]

At some point, working within a system becomes cowardly and immoral; for us, that point has arrived.


So....you´re building another system?

[Cl1mh4224rd]

The entire statement reeks of over-blown idealism and a Utopian fantasy.

Our Plans:

We are building our own society. We will supplement traditional tools with networking, cryptography, sound money, digital currency and anonymous messaging.


The administrators of this all-digital society would wield extreme power.

And anonymous messaging is a very, very bad idea. For a few cases, certainly not, but as a general means of communication? Impersonation would be way too easy.

ETA: And it sounds like there would be a need for some very in-depth background checks and screening before one would be allowed to join this new society. You know, in a best effort to protect said new society from people who would do it harm. Sounds like an exclusive club... or a hippie commune.

[Monketey Ghost]

spam without credit, pow
against the rules, pow
Ya shoulda read the rules, pow
gonna gitcha witda pow

somebody get onnit

[Hokulele]

The hell?

[T.A.M.]

spam without credit, pow
against the rules, pow
Ya shoulda read the rules, pow
gonna gitcha witda pow

somebody get onnit

wtf?

TAM:)

[thought_fugitive]

Is this going to be a new society or an anarchist MMORPG?

[Blender Head]

Can the conspiracists explain to me how, say, Heller vs. D.C. was an infringement of their rights?

[dudalb]

Wow, a replacement so soon for the late Alex Libman?

[dudalb]

Is this going to be a new society or an anarchist MMORPG?


Actually it smacks of just another bunch of John Galt Wannabes; Ayn Rand Fanboys.

[LightinDarkness]

dudalb: I don't think even Ayn Rand went that far.

This latest piece of conspiracy lunacy looks like a mis-match of freeman on the land woo and Zeitgeist propaganda.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

To The Governments & People of Earth:
Edited for consistency

To quote Ronald Reagan, "I knew Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson was a friend of mine and you sir, are no Thomas Jefferson."

[JimBenArm]

So, you're going to form a society to be free of government? Wouldn't that society be a form of government?

Sorry, if you want to be free of all government, you're going to have to find a deserted island and move there. Alone. If there are two people, one is going to be dominant, and in charge. And considering how well you've thought this out, it won't be you.

[linusrichard]

Dear The Free and Unashamed,

Got your letter.

You are free to do whatever you think you can get away with. We, of course, will do whatever we think we can get away with. What more could you possibly ask for? Freedom to do what you wish without consequences? Get real.

XOXO,

The Governments of the Earth

PS It has ever been and shall ever be thus.

[JoeyDonuts]

In other news, it appears the Freemen on the Land movement has hired a marketing department.

Also, the popcorn you're eating has been pissed in. Film at eleven.

[Lynx2174]

So this guy already had this post written out well before now, on other sites, and hasn't responded to anything regarding it. That doesn't really show much dedication to his ideals. Guess he must be off fighting the good fight somewhere else.

[Rogue1stclass]

Good luck with that.

Let us know how it all comes out.

[SezMe]

Alex? ALEX! Is that you?

ETA: Damn you dudalb. And Sword, did you have to quote that whole pile?

[Stellafane]

To The Governments & People of Earth...
You forgot to mention us reptilian aliens. So I guess we're free to carry on as we have been.

Free, unashamed men cannot be ruled.
...and you forgot "women." Understandable, since most boys who believe this stuff have zero experience with them. (But you'll show them all once you guys take over, right? Oh yes, you'll show them, yes you will...).

We are The Free and The Unashamed.
Actually, I'm pretty sure that's the slogan for an all-male nudist camp.

[T.A.M.]

http://fau.anarplex.net/?p=18
http://billstclair.com/blog/stories/separation.html

The original on a blog with wordpress was blocked/banned.

Clearly the OP is spam.

TAM:)

[Checkmite]

We do not forbid anyone from having one foot in each realm - ours and the old realm - although we demand that they do no damage to our realm. We are fully opposed to any use of our realm to facilitate crime in the old realm, such as the hiding of criminal proceeds.

Oh yeah? And if I decide to do so, then what are you going to do about it? Stop me? You can't:


To The People of Earth:

We seek nothing from you. We do not want to rule you and we do not want to control you.

Someone made an oopsie.

[Aidoneus]

To The Governments & People of Earth:
Edited for consistency.

I agree. We need some kind of new world order.

...

Oh.

[~enigma~]

I agree. We need some kind of new world order.

...

Oh.
Kinda ironic isn't it. The morons that believe in the new world order want to get rid of the government that they claim wants to create one so they can form a government themselves.

[tsig]

To The Governments & People of Earth:
Edited for consistency.

Ain't that cute.:rolleyes:

[Chaos]

Ain't that cute.:rolleyes:

No. Dumb.

[boloboffin]

The OP wants property rights without a government to enforce those property rights? I don't think this has been thought through all the way.

[Fiona]

Realm is a funny word to use in this context :confused:

[thought_fugitive]

The OP wants property rights without a government to enforce those property rights? I don't think this has been thought through all the way.

Not that I'm expecting the OP to ever return to this site, but it seems common for these quasi-revolutionaries to scream the necessity of completely incoherent mixtures of individual and collective liberties.

[PitPat]

To The Governments & People of Earth:


<blah blah>

To The Governments of Earth:

<blah blah>


To The People of Earth:

<blah blah>

To Those Who Will Condemn Us:

<blah blah>

Our Plans:

<blah blah>


But the rest of the book...the rest of the book — It's a cookbook!

[davehollis]

It is called cognitive dissonance.You will find the definition if you search for it... it's much easier to sit back and take pot shots at something you dont understand because it goes against your world view.It is far easier to critisize than think about your own slavery.The article I posted was from the voluntaryist website which you can find easily.I dont choose to dwell on your forum so mock and be as negative as you wish without me.

I would think a true skeptic would not believe in the lies and hypocrisy of politicians which to me is obvious.If hitler did not have the power of government behind him he would have just been some randomn weirdo in the street.The same goes for stalin and all men who wish to rule others.That you would let liars and theifs have positions of power is stupidity.You are not skeptics if you support what governments do.Why can the government do what the individual person cannot do?This is the ultimate hypocrisy.

You do not need a monopololistic central government to enforce private contracts.That is a fallacy and the veil of legitimacy that is used to rob you blind.How can governments protect us by stealing from us?

[davehollis]

Kinda ironic isn't it. The morons that believe in the new world order want to get rid of the government that they claim wants to create one so they can form a government themselves.


Where was it mentioned that a new state would be formed?Go back and read it properly....

The evolution of the english language,the establishment of time zones,the standardisation of track gauges,the establishment of industrial standards,the evolution of private mediation and arbitration has shown itself capable of creating communities.Social interaction does not depend on government compulsion.

[davehollis]

The OP wants property rights without a government to enforce those property rights? I don't think this has been thought through all the way.

You do not need government compulsion to enforce your property rights.It does not happen at the point of a gun.It occurs when people interact for mutual benefit.Keynesian theory does not work because eventually the people will not have any more money for the government to steal.

[davehollis]

Not that I'm expecting the OP to ever return to this site, but it seems common for these quasi-revolutionaries to scream the necessity of completely incoherent mixtures of individual and collective liberties.

In what way is it incoherent ?I understand it perfectly.I dont fight you i ignore you...:)

[Hastur]

It is called cognitive dissonance.You will find the definition if you search for it... it's much easier to sit back and take pot shots at something you dont understand because it goes against your world view.
It's real easy to mock a system that could never work and the proponent can't accept criticism.
It is far easier to critisize than think about your own slavery.
Learn what slavery truly means before you go slinging the word around to describe your situation, child.
The article I posted was from the voluntaryist website which you can find easily.I dont choose to dwell on your forum so mock and be as negative as you wish without me.
Yeah, saw it crushed before.You voluntaryists have no staying power.
I would think a true skeptic would not believe in the lies and hypocrisy of politicians which to me is obvious.
Prove it.
If hitler did not have the power of government behind him he would have just been some randomn weirdo in the street.The same goes for stalin and all men who wish to rule others.
Yeah, just like Gottschalk couldn't possibly have organized his Crusade without government . . . oh, that's right! Well, what about Martin Luth . . .oh wait! How about the various revolutions in Europe . . . oh, wait! Your point really doesn't stand up.
That you would let liars and theifs have positions of power is stupidity.
You certainly like to sling that mud around, don't you, child?
You are not skeptics if you support what governments do.
Prove it.
Why can the government do what the individual person cannot do?This is the ultimate hypocrisy.
Because the government can call on far more resources than an individual person ever could because . . . wait for it now . . . it has the consent of people other than yourself and is set up so it can be lot more deliberate than an individual.

You do not need a monopololistic central government to enforce private contracts.
But dang if it doesn't make things so much easier when we can go to one source to have a final decision.
That is a fallacy and the veil of legitimacy that is used to rob you blind.How can governments protect us by stealing from us?
Show how it's stealing. While you're at it, show how your system is any better than a government. I have yet to see any voluntaryist or whatever fancy label you anarchists put on yourself to make your tired ideas sound sophisticated do just that. You just seem to think it's some sort of glaringly obvious idea or you use arguments anyone with an ounce of real life experience with human nature can see through and think you're being incredibly profound. Oh well, you don't have the courage of your convictions. There's the door.

[davehollis]

The ideas of voluntary interaction are nothing new and it is sometimes difficult to express the gun in the room.But it is there you cannot deny it.

People who seek power will always rise to the top.They can then use the power of compulsion to reward their friends and punish their enemies.While some would see this as a natural human evolution it is insane to let psycopath's rule you.The only way to limit the damage is have no existence of central authority.

The internet is a masssive decentralisation and dissemination of information to all.Power should go in the same way to stop abuse by a small group of individuals.Wars are between these people not the entire population.I do not wish to be nuked because a president is having a bad hair day....:rolleyes:

[davehollis]

It's real easy to mock a system that could never work and the proponent can't accept criticism.

Learn what slavery truly means before you go slinging the word around to describe your situation, child.

Yeah, saw it crushed before.You voluntaryists have no staying power.

Prove it.

Yeah, just like Gottschalk couldn't possibly have organized his Crusade without government . . . oh, that's right! Well, what about Martin Luth . . .oh wait! How about the various revolutions in Europe . . . oh, wait! Your point really doesn't stand up.

You certainly like to sling that mud around, don't you, child?

Prove it.

Because the government can call on far more resources than an individual person ever could because . . . wait for it now . . . it has the consent of people other than yourself and is set up so it can be lot more deliberate than an individual.


But dang if it doesn't make things so much easier when we can go to one source to have a final decision.

Show how it's stealing. While you're at it, show how your system is any better than a government. I have yet to see any voluntaryist or whatever fancy label you anarchists put on yourself to make your tired ideas sound sophisticated do just that. You just seem to think it's some sort of glaringly obvious idea or you use arguments anyone with an ounce of real life experience with human nature can see through and think you're being incredibly profound. Oh well, you don't have the courage of your convictions. There's the door.


It is stealing if it is taken against your will.It's simple really.Thanks for calling me names rather than staying on the topic.You lose any further credibilty when you do so.I like how you bring up a religious crusade as your argument when the state has killed 200 000 000 people in it's history.The crusades barely made a dent.Religion is just another form of government if you think about it.How many were killed in ghandi's campaign which is an example of the civil disobedience I am talking about ?....Next.

[davehollis]

Shows how locked in you are to the whole left- right paradigm.I am not calling for the removal of self government but the removal of a coercive system.There is a big difference.Anarchy is the belief there should be no rulers.The lack of responsiblity and moral danger the state breeds is the real issue.Liberty is responsibilty.

[Elizabeth I]

I would think a true skeptic would not believe in the lies and hypocrisy of politicians which to me is obvious.If hitler did not have the power of government behind him he would have just been some randomn weirdo in the street.The same goes for stalin and all men who wish to rule others.That you would let liars and theifs have positions of power is stupidity.You are not skeptics if you support what governments do.Why can the government do what the individual person cannot do?This is the ultimate hypocrisy.

Wow! Godwined in the first 50 posts.

And the plural of "thief" is "thieves." And remember this handy rule:

I before E except after C, or when sounded like "A," as in neighbor and weigh.

[davehollis]

But you are forcing me to follow your system.I am simply saying that I am unable to opt out of it,therefore I use the term slavery.

from wikipedia....
Slavery is a form of forced labor in which people are considered to be, or treated as, the property of others. Slaves can be held against their will from the time of their capture, purchase or birth, and deprived of the right to leave, to refuse to work, or to receive compensation (such as wages).

The majority considers my property as theirs,or am I wrong?

[davehollis]

Wow! Godwined in the first 50 posts.

And the plural of "thief" is "thieves." And remember this handy rule:

I before E except after C, or when sounded like "A," as in neighbor and weigh.


Godwin's Law itself can be abused, as a distraction, diversion or even censorship, that fallaciously miscasts an opponent's argument as hyperbole, especially if the comparisons made by the argument are actually appropriate. A 2005 Reason magazine article argued that Godwin's Law is often misused to ridicule even valid comparisons.

If I called you a spelling nazi it would be godwin's law lol

[JimBenArm]

So, this freedom from government. Who's going to make me follow it? No one? Well, then, guess I'll keep using the one that actually works, myself.

Yay. More idealistic claptrap. What the world needs now yada yada yada. I'm so thrilled by this I might actually stay awake if I try hard. Not that I will.

Instead, someone wake me up when he says something that makes sense, is exciting, and stands a snowball's chance of actually being implemented. 'kay?

Bye-bye!

[davehollis]

So, this freedom from government. Who's going to make me follow it? No one? Well, then, guess I'll keep using the one that actually works, myself.

Yay. More idealistic claptrap. What the world needs now yada yada yada. I'm so thrilled by this I might actually stay awake if I try hard. Not that I will.

Instead, someone wake me up when he says something that makes sense, is exciting, and stands a snowball's chance of actually being implemented. 'kay?

Bye-bye!

Does it make sense to lock people in jail for non violent actions?

[lionking]

Does it make sense to lock people in jail for non violent actions?

What, like multi-million dollar fraud? Hell yes.

[JoeyDonuts]

Does it make sense to lock people in jail for non violent actions?

Fraud? Vandalism? Burglary? Forgery? Selling drugs? Trading in underage pornography? Perjury? Stalking?

How's that movement coming along? Any takers yet?

[Franklin]

So, are you just a Libertarian, or is this a "spontaneous order" concept thing ?

Of course our governments and culture are corrupt. We let things get that way because we're lazy, and expedience always trumps virtue.

However, no system of society can work without the rule of Law. A feel-good we are all in this together state of anarchy isn't going to work. Humans are a whiny bunch. Power-driven. Liars.

A structured Libertarian society with limited government and a uniform system of law accessible to all is the only way to go. There are many such organizations, but until people are more self-empowered and have a clearer sense of what kind of society they want to live in, we're stuck with the zany marxist/corporate/fascist/lobby-driven BS society we currently have.

I appreciate your sentiment, but are you really bringing anything new to the table here ?

[davehollis]

Fraud? Vandalism? Burglary? Forgery? Selling drugs? Trading in underage pornography? Perjury? Stalking?

How's that movement coming along? Any takers yet?

So how does putting someone in jail or paying a fine to the state make the victim whole??Please explain how this is satisfactory.

[davehollis]

So, are you just a Libertarian, or is this a "spontaneous order" concept thing ?

Of course our governments and culture are corrupt. We let things get that way because we're lazy, and expedience always trumps virtue.

However, no system of society can work without the rule of Law. A feel-good we are all in this together state of anarchy isn't going to work. Humans are a whiny bunch. Power-driven. Liars.

A structured Libertarian society with limited government and a uniform system of law accessible to all is the only way to go. There are many such organizations, but until people are more self-empowered and have a clearer sense of what kind of society they want to live in, we're stuck with the zany marxist/corporate/fascist/lobby-driven BS society we currently have.

I appreciate your sentiment, but are you really bringing anything new to the table here ?

Libertarian has been corrupted by statists over the past few years.

One system as outlined in this book could provide an answer..
The Voluntary City
Choice, Community, and Civil Society


You do not need a coercive state to have a civil society.....people like to conflate this with having no discipline and lack of enforcement.Private property and natural law has been all but forgotten with the modern state.As for the state,it will always grow into a monster, if you remove it then it will not grow ....

[fullflavormenthol]

Libertarian has been corrupted by statists over the past few years.

One system as outlined in this book could provide an answer..
The Voluntary City
Choice, Community, and Civil Society


You do not need a coercive state to have a civil society.....people like to conflate this with having no discipline and lack of enforcement.Private property and natural law has been all but forgotten with the modern state.As for the state,it will always grow into a monster, if you remove it then it will not grow ....

Have you even looked at the book you are pushing? It is extreme libertarianism. Hell I will go so far as to say it is rule by corporate coercion. Although this is the Laissez Fair opposite of the Venus Project it fails for the same reasons...it assumes the best in people; and it assumes the best in corporations.

I consider myself a very libertarian minded person, but this book was put out by the Independent Institute. Looking into the funding of the Independent Institute would show you funding from Phillip Morris, and Exxon; which don't have great track records.

This makes me wish the the mods would play a sick joke and merge this with one of the Venus Project threads so there can be a fight of utopian extremes.

My attitude. I prefer to deal with actual courts, not dispute resolution organizations. I prefer to deal with police officers and not private security forces. Some things a central government can do better.

Whereas Zeitgeist proposes a system in which I would be bound by the whims of a lazy free loading mob, this "voluntary" system would bind me to the whims of a corporation.

For those interested here is a preview of the book in question,
The Voluntary City (http://books.google.com/books?id=UKIVcw8nrUcC&dq=the+voluntary+city+choice+community+and+civil+s ociety&printsec=frontcover&source=bl&ots=kGsDSeUzJ9&sig=akaRoiGiAsaJSjviVkUPscsJAYQ&hl=en&ei=gSdcSo7YH4SG8gTUs-XSDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3)

[JoeyDonuts]

So how does putting someone in jail or paying a fine to the state make the victim whole??Please explain how this is satisfactory.

It upholds the rule of law that in our society, these acts are not tolerated and are to be punished. It often falls well short of satisfactory, particularly in cases of rape. How do you put a price or monetary value on what a rapist takes away from a victim? No amount of legislation, or punishment for the rapist can truly make that person whole. It does, however, serve two purposes. One, it removes that person from society. Two, as I said before, it is an extension of law. A society that does not codify laws and then back them up with the authority and will to enforce them via a system of peace officers is absolutely doomed to fail. Most likely, it'll never take shape in the first place.

Since the punishing of offenses like those listed above is apparently 'unsatisfactory' to you, what is your alternative?

In your ideal society, what happens to a person that engages in any of the above acts?

I think if you gathered a whole bunch of anarchists that agreed to live, work, and cooperate together, you'd have a really big problem on your hands. You see, you'd run up against the same things civilizations have struggled with for years. You aren't so unique. You'd declare certain things illegal. Great. Now make them that way. Woops! I guess you're not really an anarchist.

[stateofgrace]

So how does putting someone in jail or paying a fine to the state make the victim whole??Please explain how this is satisfactory.

Oh so if somebody smashed up your motor, vandalised your property, urinated in your garden and just for giggles decided to do it to your neighbours , I guess it is OK , right ? No need to lock up these guys right, no need to punish them, right?

What planet do you live on pal? Is it planet “I have zero property, I have put zero into the system and therefore I can stand on my soap box and criticise those that do “? Or is it Planet “ I have zero responsibility, I live will mum and dad and get everything provided for me , so I can mock the rest of the working people and call them slaves” Or is it Planet “ I am full of crap “ ? Or is it simply Planet" I am completly clueless as to how planet earth works ", Which one pal?

It is not satisfaction it is called enforcing the law sunbeam, something that is way over your head. Once you leave school, get a job, start paying taxes and actually have some responsibility, not just for yourself but for others around you it will all fall into place, but until then take your self righteous clap trap and stuff it up you self righteous arse.

That's right, sunbeam you are addressing adults and this is adult talk. I have worked all my live, provided for my family and like other working people ready do have responsibilities, nobody has given me anything, I have earned it. And you have the balls to call me a slave; you have the balls to call the man on the street, the working man a slave. **** you and **** the horse you rode in on.

[LightinDarkness]

Private property and natural law has been all but forgotten with the modern state.As for the state,it will always grow into a monster, if you remove it then it will not grow ....

I really think you use terms you do not understand. Natural law is the foundation of the United States. Without natural law the constitution could not exist, for it is based on the idea that people have natural rights that are not given to them by the state. You want a natural law society? You are living in it.

As for private property, you can have more of it here than you can in almost any other country in the world.

If you remove government you have anarchy, you will have no institutions which abide by natural law nor any way to protect your private property.

I suspect what we have here is another person angry that someone has more than them, and thinks their Utopian vision will "level" the playing field and bring down all those evil rich people.

[T.A.M.]

It is called cognitive dissonance.You will find the definition if you search for it... it's much easier to sit back and take pot shots at something you dont understand because it goes against your world view.It is far easier to critisize than think about your own slavery.The article I posted was from the voluntaryist website which you can find easily.I dont choose to dwell on your forum so mock and be as negative as you wish without me.

I would think a true skeptic would not believe in the lies and hypocrisy of politicians which to me is obvious.If hitler did not have the power of government behind him he would have just been some randomn weirdo in the street.The same goes for stalin and all men who wish to rule others.That you would let liars and theifs have positions of power is stupidity.You are not skeptics if you support what governments do.Why can the government do what the individual person cannot do?This is the ultimate hypocrisy.

You do not need a monopololistic central government to enforce private contracts.That is a fallacy and the veil of legitimacy that is used to rob you blind.How can governments protect us by stealing from us?

So you come here, do not take time to even bother to read the rules of the forum, then in contradiction to those rules you post someone else's diatribe as your own, without credit or linkage.

That was poor form #1.

As for the rest, which I will call poor form #2, is to promote the ideas, that basically add up to,

"Myself and a few others don't like authority, don't like rules imposed upon us, and want to be free. The system is too hard for us to change, so we are going to pull up and move to the wilderness where we can live off the land, not pay taxes,and shoot who ever comes over to bother us."

So!!! fine...go do it (except for the shooting part). No one here really gives a **** if you and a few others decide to do this...just go, and stop bitching about what is driving you there.

TAM:)

[JimBenArm]

Does it make sense to lock people in jail for non violent actions?
Oh, of course not! Why, we should let the thieves, con men, child molesters and unlicensed forum posters just wander free among us. Why, they should be given a special place of honor!

Sheesh, have you ever in your life posted something you've actually thought through first? Just once?

[T.A.M.]

yes I think Bernie Madeoff should have to walk around in public naked, with a sign around his neck that reads "ass-hole" for 150 years...screw jail for him.

TAM;)

[Hastur]

It is stealing if it is taken against your will.
Not quite, but then, that doesn't surprise me.
Thanks for calling me names rather than staying on the topic.You lose any further credibilty when you do so.
Just like when you ignore arguments and argue by assertions.
I like how you bring up a religious crusade as your argument when the state has killed 200 000 000 people in it's history.
I brought up more than that and it was in rebuttal for your "without government Hitler would just have been a loony" argument. It obviously flew over your head that loonies don't need government to make themselves powerful, they just need mass support.

Shows how locked in you are to the whole left- right paradigm.I am not calling for the removal of self government but the removal of a coercive system.
Ultimately producing the same thing. Show how your system is any better.
Anarchy is the belief there should be no rulers.The lack of responsiblity and moral danger the state breeds is the real issue.Liberty is responsibilty.Prove any of this. Use a bit more than just assertion.

But you are forcing me to follow your system.I am simply saying that I am unable to opt out of it,therefore I use the term slavery.
Yes, now learn what the term really means.

from wikipedia....
Slavery is a form of forced labor in which people are considered to be, or treated as, the property of others. Slaves can be held against their will from the time of their capture, purchase or birth, and deprived of the right to leave, to refuse to work, or to receive compensation (such as wages).

The majority considers my property as theirs,or am I wrong?
You are wrong. I can't simply take your property unless I have some sort of entitlement to it, typically for the payment of debts. The government cannot simply take away property without paying for it and the courts have been very persnickety about what is "taking" someone's property (e.g. laying cable in the wall spaces of a building is a taking).
Now, you've already ignored my prior arguments, so I can take a concession on your part that your system truly is no better than a government and so there is no need for change. Provide me a proper argument and maybe I'll humor you.

[dudalb]

It is going to be interesting when Davehollis come out of the basement and encounters the real world.

[LightinDarkness]

It is going to be interesting when Davehollis come out of the basement and encounters the real world.

He will no doubt demand the world free him from enslavement and tell the police officers/men in white with the straight jacket that he does not recognize their jurisdiction!

[dudalb]

It is no coincidence that about 95% of Anarchists are College Students or Academics with fairly secure incomes.You can spout all the nonsense you want in a college classroom or a college dorm bull session ,knowing you will never be required to actually try out your political and economic theories and ideas to see if they work.

[Horatius]

And remember this handy rule:

I before E except after C, or when sounded like "A," as in neighbor and weigh.



Man, we live in a weird society.


[/NotOriginal]

[davehollis]

I like how everyone has concluded I am an american college student living in my parents basement.rofl!

You have no idea and prefer to attack me personally .I have not mentioned anything about my personal situation so where is the proof that I am what you say?

You accuse me of something I am not.It is no wonder statist's make arbitrary decisions which are wrong 90 per cent of the time rather than trying to come up with ideas to better themselves spiritually and emotionally.I see nothing but hate on this forum.I hope you are never on a jury of someone who is accused of something where there is no victim.You cannot even get past your own hate and bile.

Talk about toxic personalities!

So what if I would like a society based on consent rather than force.Put forth your own ideas to work towards less coercion before attacking my suggestions.It is easier to operate with a pack mentality which is the basis of all that is wrong in today's society.You are dead wrong in your assertions of my personal situation so I feel free to ignore most of your negative comments.Have a nice life when the swat squad kicks down your door and shoots your pets or kids.

I see Obama's new science czar advocates forced abortions and mass sterilizations.The new ministry of truth has just been founded and police brutality is increasing at an ever greater rate.Your lovely government is consuming more than what can ever be created.So keep ignoring what is happening under your nose.Just because you are too lazy to get off your butt and care about your fellow humans.Have a nice life.

[Cl1mh4224rd]

[snipped whining about being persecuted]

So what if I would like a society based on consent rather than force.


It's been asked of you before, but how would your new society deal with, for example, rape? How would it deal with destruction of personal property? Embezzlement? Theft?

In the latter two cases, what reason would a person have to "consent" to returning the embezzled money or stolen property? Should the victims just "get over it" and move on?

I see Obama's new science czar advocates forced abortions and mass sterilizations.The new ministry of truth has just been founded and police brutality is increasing at an ever greater rate.


Ah! Yet another person who has never read 1984, yet thinks he can make insightful references to the book.

[davehollis]

I really think you use terms you do not understand. Natural law is the foundation of the United States. Without natural law the constitution could not exist, for it is based on the idea that people have natural rights that are not given to them by the state. You want a natural law society? You are living in it.

As for private property, you can have more of it here than you can in almost any other country in the world.

If you remove government you have anarchy, you will have no institutions which abide by natural law nor any way to protect your private property.

I suspect what we have here is another person angry that someone has more than them, and thinks their Utopian vision will "level" the playing field and bring down all those evil rich people.

Since when does anyone follow the rules of the constitution?Politicians and judges ignore it at will because it has no teeth.Witness the wiretapping and torture of the bush era....
Voluntaryism is a different thing to anarchy.The state is different to voluntary government,in that any mob or group can call itself the state,and self government means abiding by certain rules such as do no harm.The state creates positive rights without agreement from those it rules.Negative rights such a private property are rights not to be subjected to an action of another human being, or group of people, such as a state, usually in the form of abuse or coercion.You can have government without a coercive monopoly on force.If you think you actually own property you are wrong because of emminent domain the state owns it.

[davehollis]

It's been asked of you before, but how would your new society deal with, for example, rape? How would it deal with destruction of personal property? Embezzlement? Theft?

In the latter two cases, what reason would a person have to "consent" to returning the embezzled money or stolen property? Should the victims just "get over it" and move on?




Ah! Yet another person who has never read 1984, yet thinks he can make insightful references to the book.


Private arbitration and security has been around before the state became involved .Look it up if you dont believe me.

[T.A.M.]

I like how everyone has concluded I am an american college student living in my parents basement.rofl!

You have no idea and prefer to attack me personally .I have not mentioned anything about my personal situation so where is the proof that I am what you say?

You accuse me of something I am not.It is no wonder statist's make arbitrary decisions which are wrong 90 per cent of the time rather than trying to come up with ideas to better themselves spiritually and emotionally.I see nothing but hate on this forum.I hope you are never on a jury of someone who is accused of something where there is no victim.You cannot even get past your own hate and bile.

Talk about toxic personalities!

So what if I would like a society based on consent rather than force.Put forth your own ideas to work towards less coercion before attacking my suggestions.It is easier to operate with a pack mentality which is the basis of all that is wrong in today's society.You are dead wrong in your assertions of my personal situation so I feel free to ignore most of your negative comments.Have a nice life when the swat squad kicks down your door and shoots your pets or kids.

I see Obama's new science czar advocates forced abortions and mass sterilizations.The new ministry of truth has just been founded and police brutality is increasing at an ever greater rate.Your lovely government is consuming more than what can ever be created.So keep ignoring what is happening under your nose.Just because you are too lazy to get off your butt and care about your fellow humans.Have a nice life.

So why do you feel the need to shout from the roof top,

"I hate you world, and therefore, I am leaving you!"

Just shut the **** up and go create your *********** Utopia for christ's sake.

TAM:)

[Audible Click]

To quote Ronald Reagan, "I knew Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson was a friend of mine and you sir, are no Thomas Jefferson."



http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/266624a5e81d914772.gif (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=16972)

[davehollis]

Oh so if somebody smashed up your motor, vandalised your property, urinated in your garden and just for giggles decided to do it to your neighbours , I guess it is OK , right ? No need to lock up these guys right, no need to punish them, right?

What planet do you live on pal? Is it planet “I have zero property, I have put zero into the system and therefore I can stand on my soap box and criticise those that do “? Or is it Planet “ I have zero responsibility, I live will mum and dad and get everything provided for me , so I can mock the rest of the working people and call them slaves” Or is it Planet “ I am full of crap “ ? Or is it simply Planet" I am completly clueless as to how planet earth works ", Which one pal?

It is not satisfaction it is called enforcing the law sunbeam, something that is way over your head. Once you leave school, get a job, start paying taxes and actually have some responsibility, not just for yourself but for others around you it will all fall into place, but until then take your self righteous clap trap and stuff it up you self righteous arse.

That's right, sunbeam you are addressing adults and this is adult talk. I have worked all my live, provided for my family and like other working people ready do have responsibilities, nobody has given me anything, I have earned it. And you have the balls to call me a slave; you have the balls to call the man on the street, the working man a slave. **** you and **** the horse you rode in on.

I live on the planet where the state destroys property and people's lives on a whim without consequences.If you really believed what you are saying you would agree with my assertions.If you really had "balls" you would detain the politicians who are breaking their own rules.They do not believe in government because they cannot govern themselves.The gun in the room is there like a 800 pound gorilla.This is why you pay up to the protection racket.Stop paying the mafia and see how quickly they destroy you.As for you saying I live with mum and dad you are untrue.

[davehollis]

Some day the corruption will be dealt with by the people you all mock.You are just scared to come out of the cages and face responsibilty for your own protection and consequences for your actions.When the so called rulers face the same consequences as everyone else does then you will have an argument for handing over the keys to freedom.

[davehollis]

It's been asked of you before, but how would your new society deal with, for example, rape? How would it deal with destruction of personal property? Embezzlement? Theft?

In the latter two cases, what reason would a person have to "consent" to returning the embezzled money or stolen property? Should the victims just "get over it" and move on?




Ah! Yet another person who has never read 1984, yet thinks he can make insightful references to the book.

They could not declare bankruptcy to escape the consequences.Most likely they would become slaves of their victims untill they could make them whole....the victims would have a lot more say than they do now.Is this a bad thing???
As for 1984 tell me how it is not "doublethink" the state engages in.You do not protect someone by destroying their property as the state is wont to do.

[JimBenArm]

Since when does anyone follow the rules of the constitution?Politicians and judges ignore it at will because it has no teeth.Witness the wiretapping and torture of the bush era....
Voluntaryism is a different thing to anarchy.The state is different to voluntary government,in that any mob or group can call itself the state,and self government means abiding by certain rules such as do no harm.The state creates positive rights without agreement from those it rules.Negative rights such a private property are rights not to be subjected to an action of another human being, or group of people, such as a state, usually in the form of abuse or coercion.You can have government without a coercive monopoly on force.If you think you actually own property you are wrong because of emminent domain the state owns it.
Punctuation, paragraphs, proper use of capitalization and spelling all help to make you look like you actually put some thought into what you're writing. Just slopping something together and posting it without proofing it and spell-checking it just shows mental laziness and a basic lack of education.
Oh, I know you'll say "that's not indicative of anything, you're deflecting from my excellent ideas" but really, it's not. If you cannot show you can use communication skills more advanced than that of a grade-schooler, who do you think is going to take you seriously? I, for one, will not. It shows you don't take your ideas all that seriously, either.

[fullflavormenthol]

Okay I love this. So all these statements about government being inherently evil are presented as true, and if we question them than we are cowards? The statements about "voluntary" societies run through private security and arbitration (mind you most likely to be run by those for whom it would be in their best interest to protect their own buisness without concern of the little person), and to question this means that we are cowards? Or we are ignorant? I suppose the assumption is being forced on us that the system is so broken it should be torn down and replaced with a utopian vision.

Extreme libertarianism suffers from the same flaw as Marxism and "Resource based economies", the assumption is that like Mary Poppins we are all practicully perfect in everyway and only the government or the "system" is bad. Once we get rid of the "man" we will all join hands and live in paradise. And if you don't buy that than you are either 1.) Ignorant. 2.) Afraid of change or 3.) "The Man".

It is a very juvenile outlook that leads those with a utopian vision to come here and then get upset when we don't accept their ideas without question or logical thought.

My advice. Go find a third world nation willing to sell you some land and start a test society there. Maybe you can go halfsies with the Zeitgeist folks and both build competing societies across the river from each other. :)

As far as the OP, it makes me think of a bunch of people chanting "His name is Robert Paulson."

[Stellafane]

Some day the corruption will be dealt with by the people you all mock.You are just scared to come out of the cages and face responsibilty for your own protection and consequences for your actions.When the so called rulers face the same consequences as everyone else does then you will have an argument for handing over the keys to freedom.

Change may indeed come, but its agents will not be those who post incoherent rants on internet forums, attempting to discuss concepts they don't really understand and obviously have never thought through. Such people are literally the last to whom I'd hand over the keys to anything.

Whatever dissatisfactions there may be in your life, impotent anger against imagined enemies isn't the way to go about addressing them. No "so called rulers" are making you unhappy; they're just a convenient scapegoat for avoiding the things that actually are.

[Cl1mh4224rd]

They could not declare bankruptcy to escape the consequences.Most likely they would become slaves of their victims untill they could make them whole....the victims would have a lot more say than they do now.Is this a bad thing???


Wait... slavery? Do you think that's a bad thing?

As for 1984 tell me how it is not "doublethink" the state engages in.


You didn't say anything about doublethink. You said...

I see Obama's new science czar advocates forced abortions and mass sterilizations.The new ministry of truth has just been founded and police brutality is increasing at an ever greater rate.


You clearly don't know what the Ministry of Truth actually did in the book.

[tsig]

Some day the corruption will be dealt with by the people you all mock.You are just scared to come out of the cages and face responsibilty for your own protection and consequences for your actions.When the so called rulers face the same consequences as everyone else does then you will have an argument for handing over the keys to freedom.

The govmt sends me money. Pls don't destroy it before I DIE.

[stateofgrace]

I live on the planet where the state destroys property and people's lives on a whim without consequences.If you really believed what you are saying you would agree with my assertions.If you really had "balls" you would detain the politicians who are breaking their own rules.They do not believe in government because they cannot govern themselves.The gun in the room is there like a 800 pound gorilla.This is why you pay up to the protection racket.Stop paying the mafia and see how quickly they destroy you.As for you saying I live with mum and dad you are untrue.

I am not from America, I am from Scotland and surprise your Government does not control my every movement. Maybe when you leave mum and dads basement you will figure out that there is something beyond the shores of America, it is called the rest of the planet. And the rest of the planet does give a toss about your clap trap. The clap trap you hide behind to disguise your own inadequacies. I am sure it makes your life so much easier blaming somebody, the nasty evil governments for all that is wrong with your life; reality is all that is wrong with your life pal is you talk clap trap and actually believe it, unfortunately for the rest of the planet you are alone with your delusions.

Grow up son.

[davehollis]

I suppose you will all argue that the governmaent is better than the free market,which has never actually existed so cannot be proven as better.I dont wish to share your socialist nighmare,so what will you do to me if i refuse ?:crowded:

[davehollis]

I am not from America, I am from Scotland and surprise your Government does not control my every movement. Maybe when you leave mum and dads basement you will figure out that there is something beyond the shores of America, it is called the rest of the planet. And the rest of the planet does give a toss about your clap trap. The clap trap you hide behind to disguise your own inadequacies. I am sure it makes your life so much easier blaming somebody, the nasty evil governments for all that is wrong with your life; reality is all that is wrong with your life pal is you talk clap trap and actually believe it, unfortunately for the rest of the planet you are alone with your delusions.

Grow up son.



You actually think I am american?Assumptions are like butts..everyone has one.

[stateofgrace]

You actually think I am american?Assumptions are like butts..everyone has one.

Oh so you are not talking about the USG and your references to the Mafia means that you are from where, exactly?

And oh your quaint little phase is quit true hence the reason you allowed yours, surprise, surprise no thought police removing it .I don't see anybody stopping you expressing your opinion or removing your opinion ,why is that ? Are slaves allowed opinions? Are you not free to talk clap trap to your hearts content, say what you like when you like?

You never did clarify why I should listen to a self opinionated nobody who to date, from what I see as contributed zero to society and simply slag’s off those that do and calls them slaves, maybe you can do that just now, eh? The floor is yours.

[davehollis]

Do you believe that all men are created equal? Yes( ) No ( )

Do you have a right to violate the rights of another? Yes( ) No( )

Do two or more people have a right to violate the rights of another? Yes( ) No( )

If you answered yes to the above, where does the authority come from to violate my right
to "life, liberty and property"?

If many people can "get together" and violate my rights, can I then get together a larger
group of people to violate your rights??

[LightinDarkness]

I suppose you will all argue that the governmaent is better than the free market,which has never actually existed so cannot be proven as better.I dont wish to share your socialist nighmare,so what will you do to me if i refuse ?:crowded:

I have some sympathies for this one because, although I don't think I was ever this insane, I once believed in a version of this. Then I got some knowledge by doing research. I remain a moderate libertarian and am proud of it, and am ashamed of the off-the-rails libertarians like this one who fail to see how wrong they are.

I know facts mean nothing to you, davehollis, but I'm going to bring them out anyways:

1) We have indeed had a free market before. Indeed, United States economy policy through the 1920s was the picture of a free market. No government intervention at all - the official government policy was laissez-faire treatment of the markets.

What did this result in? Unprecedented growth - and child slavery, countless preventable workplace deaths, horrible workplace safety and sanitation conditions, highly questionable consumer product safety standards, corporate level blackmail, backstabbing, and general executive shenanigans.

And then, to top it all off, that little thing called The Great Depression occurred. You may have heard of it. Unprecedented unemployment, food lines, death, misery, and economic destruction that we have never matched again.

Maybe you endorse all those horrible things, sensible people do not. Government regulation - limited, in my preference - is required for a stable marketplace because of the well documented and economic fact of market failures.

2) Free markets can never stay free for long, especially in the absence of government. We know this through the well documented fact of what economists called market failures. A market failure occurs when, in the normal course of the operations of a free market, market players are have the incentive to act in a way that destroys the market itself.

All of the following happened in the US free market economy, and they happen in every other free market:
A) Information asymmetry: Players in the marketplace do not share equal information in the free market. There is a strategic incentive on the part of producers to conceal and hide information in the free market.

B) Bounded rationality: Even if producers did not engage in strategically hiding information, consumers are limited by the amount of data they can understand and process in the marketplace. I cannot possibly understand all the alternatives, cons, and pros, of every market transaction.

C) Public goods: In the free marketplace, several types of goods which are required to sustain society will never be provided because they carry large cost tags that no one has an incentive to pay. These include things like national defense and the police force. Even if you are against these, even the most wingbat libertarian advocates for a court system to adjudicate contract disputes that occur in the marketplace, the problem is such court systems would never be created in a free marketplace.

D) Player collusion: Producers and consumers, although usually its producers, have a incentive in the free marketplace to collude - without regulation producers can, do, and have worked together to raise prices in concert, cloak system wide product failure issues, and other things that harm consumers which you cannot fight against in the free market. On the other side, consumers can collude to boycott producers and engage in strategic price wars to shut down producers.

E) Natural monopolies: Without regulation, or through the use of A-D above, producers can become natural monopolies. With no competition that means you will pay whatever the monopoly wants, and you can't do a thing about it.

There are many other types of market failures, those are just the common ones I teach to undergraduates. ALL OF THESE are why a FREE MARKET will never work, and NEVER HAS worked. There is no debate about this.

[LightinDarkness]

Do you believe that all men are created equal? Yes(X) No ( )

Do you have a right to violate the rights of another? Yes(X) No( )

Do two or more people have a right to violate the rights of another? Yes(X) No( )

If you answered yes to the above, where does the authority come from to violate my right
to "life, liberty and property"?

The fact that you do not have the authority to do anything which infringes upon the "life, liberty and property" of anyone else, and if you do so the constitution allows us to fix that.


Section 2. The judicial power shall extend to all cases, in law and equity, arising under this Constitution, the laws of the United States, and treaties made, or which shall be made, under their authority;--to all cases affecting ambassadors, other public ministers and consuls;--to all cases of admiralty and maritime jurisdiction;--to controversies to which the United States shall be a party;--to controversies between two or more states;--between a state and citizens of another state;--between citizens of different states;--between citizens of the same state claiming lands under grants of different states, and between a state, or the citizens thereof, and foreign states, citizens or subjects.


If many people can "get together" and violate my rights, can I then get together a larger
group of people to violate your rights?

Yes, you can indeed get a larger group of people to stop someone else from violating your rights. Its called the Government.

[davehollis]

Oh so you are not talking about the USG and your references to the Mafia means that you are from where, exactly?

And oh your quaint little phase is quit true hence the reason you allowed yours, surprise, surprise no thought police removing it .I don't see anybody stopping you expressing your opinion or removing your opinion ,why is that ? Are slaves allowed opinions? Are you not free to talk clap trap to your hearts content, say what you like when you like?

You never did clarify why I should listen to a self opinionated nobody who to date, from what I see as contributed zero to society and simply slag’s off those that do and calls them slaves, maybe you can do that just now, eh? The floor is yours.

You are assuming I want to be part of your society,since I do not then why would I want to contribute to it?Illogical....Obama hails from chicago which is a well known mafia city.Where I am from is unimportant as the state uses geographical restrictions to enforce it's laws.The sooner we stop identifying with geographical boundaries and instead consider ourselves as part of the human race we wont evolve.

[stateofgrace]

Do you believe that all men are created equal? Yes( ) No ( )

Do you have a right to violate the rights of another? Yes( ) No( )

Do two or more people have a right to violate the rights of another? Yes( ) No( )

If you answered yes to the above, where does the authority come from to violate my right
to "life, liberty and property"?

If many people can "get together" and violate my rights, can I then get together a larger
group of people to violate your rights??

That called not debating, that called simply ignoring what is being said to you and simply riding rough shot over other people’s opinions. It is called forcing your opinions on others and simply ignoring other people opinions It is called doing exactly what you are accusing the governments of doing.

Why are you violating my rights to hold and express my opinions? Why is it ok for you to violate my rights and ignore my opinion ?

Why is that? Why is it ok for you to do that not somebody else?

[LightinDarkness]

You are assuming I want to be part of your society,since I do not then why would I want to contribute to it?Illogical....Obama hails from chicago which is a well known mafia city.Where I am from is unimportant as the state uses geographical restrictions to enforce it's laws.The sooner we stop identifying with geographical boundaries and instead consider ourselves as part of the human race we wont evolve.


Dont want to be part of it? Fine, move somewhere else. And get off the GOVERNMENT SPONSORED AND SUBSIDIZED INTERNET. NOW. Your on a state made internet, designed by the government and whose entire infrastructure is subsidized by every government in the world that has internet access. Show us how much you believe this stuff by staying true to your ideals and staying off the internet forever, or until such a time as none of it is subsidized by the government.

[stateofgrace]

You are assuming I want to be part of your society,since I do not then why would I want to contribute to it?Illogical....Obama hails from chicago which is a well known mafia city.Where I am from is unimportant as the state uses geographical restrictions to enforce it's laws.The sooner we stop identifying with geographical boundaries and instead consider ourselves as part of the human race we wont evolve.

I thought you said assumptions are like butt holes. Why are you allowed to assume and I am not?
If you do not contribute then why should I listen to your criticism??

Are you making the rules up as you go along ?

[davehollis]

I have some sympathies for this one because, although I don't think I was ever this insane, I once believed in a version of this. Then I got some knowledge by doing research. I remain a moderate libertarian and am proud of it, and am ashamed of the off-the-rails libertarians like this one who fail to see how wrong they are.

I know facts mean nothing to you, davehollis, but I'm going to bring them out anyways:

1) We have indeed had a free market before. Indeed, United States economy policy through the 1920s was the picture of a free market. No government intervention at all - the official government policy was laissez-faire treatment of the markets.

What did this result in? Unprecedented growth - and child slavery, countless preventable workplace deaths, horrible workplace safety and sanitation conditions, highly questionable consumer product safety standards, corporate level blackmail, backstabbing, and general executive shenanigans.

And then, to top it all off, that little thing called The Great Depression occurred. You may have heard of it. Unprecedented unemployment, food lines, death, misery, and economic destruction that we have never matched again.

Maybe you endorse all those horrible things, sensible people do not. Government regulation - limited, in my preference - is required for a stable marketplace because of the well documented and economic fact of market failures.

2) Free markets can never stay free for long, especially in the absence of government. We know this through the well documented fact of what economists called market failures. A market failure occurs when, in the normal course of the operations of a free market, market players are have the incentive to act in a way that destroys the market itself.

All of the following happened in the US free market economy, and they happen in every other free market:
A) Information asymmetry: Players in the marketplace do not share equal information in the free market. There is a strategic incentive on the part of producers to conceal and hide information in the free market.

B) Bounded rationality: Even if producers did not engage in strategically hiding information, consumers are limited by the amount of data they can understand and process in the marketplace. I cannot possibly understand all the alternatives, cons, and pros, of every market transaction.

C) Public goods: In the free marketplace, several types of goods which are required to sustain society will never be provided because they carry large cost tags that no one has an incentive to pay. These include things like national defense and the police force. Even if you are against these, even the most wingbat libertarian advocates for a court system to adjudicate contract disputes that occur in the marketplace, the problem is such court systems would never be created in a free marketplace.

D) Player collusion: Producers and consumers, although usually its producers, have a incentive in the free marketplace to collude - without regulation producers can, do, and have worked together to raise prices in concert, cloak system wide product failure issues, and other things that harm consumers which you cannot fight against in the free market. On the other side, consumers can collude to boycott producers and engage in strategic price wars to shut down producers.

E) Natural monopolies: Without regulation, or through the use of A-D above, producers can become natural monopolies. With no competition that means you will pay whatever the monopoly wants, and you can't do a thing about it.

There are many other types of market failures, those are just the common ones I teach to undergraduates. ALL OF THESE are why a FREE MARKET will never work, and NEVER HAS worked. There is no debate about this.

Government regulations caused the great depression,not free markets.There was actually a depression in 1921 which no one remembers which caused the government to raise tarriffs and make the 1930 depression a lot more severe.If things were left alone it would work itself out.By your line of thought the current global depression couldnt happen because regulations would prevent it....you are just re-hashing government propaganda.

Libertarian is a corrupted word taken over by the republican party.Extreme libertarian?lmao......liberty is not extreme ,it is just liberty....or not.

[LightinDarkness]

And as expected...he didn't read a word. I knew I was typing all that for nothing.

Government regulations caused the great depression,not free markets.

Please cite your evidence that the government caused the Great Depression when its hands off free market policy was well known. Please cite the specific regulations which caused the Great Depression. You won't find any, because THERE WERE NONE.


So what if you have to pay the consumer can simply boycott the company which will bring market pressure to bear.

Yep, didn't read a thing.

As shown with (1), (2), and A-E above, this is false. You cannot boycott the company when (1) you don't know what its doing wrong, (2) there are no other competitors because its a natural monopoly, or (3) because the company has colluded with other companies.


You cannot use market pressure on the state.Regulations increase cost and decrease innovation.

Not true. There is some cost with regulation in terms of innovation, but its not enough to advocate against all regulation. The market has been regulated since the Great Depression and most markets around the world have done the same since the same general time period, and we have had the greatest innovations in the history of mankind during this time period.


The more monopolistic a state becomes the worse the result.By your line of thought the current global depression couldnt happen....you are just re-hashing government propaganda.

Sorry, the facts and research are not propaganda, but your dismissal of all the research is indeed propaganda. The state is not a monopoly and it is designed not to be such, in fact it cannot be. There is no current global depression, that WOULD be CT propaganda. If you think this is a "depression" you really are a kid.


Libertarian is a corrupted word taken over by the republican party.Extreme libertarian?lmao......liberty is not extreme ,it is just liberty....or not.

Again, you must be a child. At no time has the Republican party ever declared itself libertarian nor do I know of any libertarian who is a Republican.

Extreme libertarian as in so wingbat crazy that you don't stop to think that your ideology is wrong. Your idea of liberty would, in actuality, rob liberty from lots of people.

[Caustic Logic]

Hi Davehollis. I understand you're trying to put together a new state based on mass delusion. I wish you luck with that. Your delusion sounds kind of interesting, if Quixotic. At least you believe in your dreams!

[davehollis]

The first U.S. tariff, the Tariff of 1789, levied a 15 percent duty on imported nails.

Is that not government intervention??????

[davehollis]

And as expected...he didn't read a word. I knew I was typing all that for nothing.



Please cite your evidence that the government caused the Great Depression when its hands off free market policy was well known. Please cite the specific regulations which caused the Great Depression. You won't find any, because THERE WERE NONE.



Yep, didn't read a thing.

As shown with (1), (2), and A-E above, this is false. You cannot boycott the company when (1) you don't know what its doing wrong, (2) there are no other competitors because its a natural monopoly, or (3) because the company has colluded with other companies.



Not true. There is some cost with regulation in terms of innovation, but its not enough to advocate against all regulation. The market has been regulated since the Great Depression and most markets around the world have done the same since the same general time period, and we have had the greatest innovations in the history of mankind during this time period.



Sorry, the facts and research are not propaganda, but your dismissal of all the research is indeed propaganda. The state is not a monopoly and it is designed not to be such, in fact it cannot be. There is no current global depression, that WOULD be CT propaganda. If you think this is a "depression" you really are a kid.



Again, you must be a child. At no time has the Republican party ever declared itself libertarian nor do I know of any libertarian who is a Republican.

Extreme libertarian as in so wingbat crazy that you don't stop to think that your ideology is wrong. Your idea of liberty would, in actuality, rob liberty from lots of people.

Smoot-Hawley Tariff Act....introduced by H.Hoover .It certainly prolonged the depression.....


Emergency Tariff Act in 1921
Fordney-McCumber Tariff Act of 1922

U.S. imports from Europe declined from a 1929 high of $1,334 million to just $390 million in 1932, while U.S. exports to Europe fell from $2,341 million in 1929 to $784 million in 1932. Overall, world trade declined by some 66% between 1929 and 1934.


free market my butt!!!!

[davehollis]

Hi Davehollis. I understand you're trying to put together a new state based on mass delusion. I wish you luck with that. Your delusion sounds kind of interesting, if Quixotic. At least you believe in your dreams!


Mass delusion or not....the gun in the room is there....

[LightinDarkness]

Smoot-Hawley Tariff Act....introduced by H.Hoover .It certainly prolonged the depression.....


Emergency Tariff Act in 1921
Fordney-McCumber Tariff Act of 1922

U.S. imports from Europe declined from a 1929 high of $1,334 million to just $390 million in 1932, while U.S. exports to Europe fell from $2,341 million in 1929 to $784 million in 1932. Overall, world trade declined by some 66% between 1929 and 1934.


free market my butt!!!!

Yep, clearly still not reading.

The existence of tariff legislation does not mean a free market economy did not exist before it went into effect. The reason why the tarrifs were put in place had to do with over-reaction to the failures of your free market. In fact, the reason why imports declined from 1929 to 1934 WAS BECAUSE OF THE GREAT DEPRESSION, which occurred because of US free market policy.

Indeed, the source you quoted without attribution even states:


The Smoot-Hawley Tariff was more a consequence of the onset of the Great Depression than an initial cause.

http://future.state.gov/when/timeline/1921_timeline/smoot_tariff.html

By the way, when you get to community college and cite stuff without attribution, and then cite it completely out of context, you'll get an F and get reported for plagiarism.

And of course, now protectionism is at an all time low - in your so called "global depression."

Try again.

[LightinDarkness]

The first U.S. tariff, the Tariff of 1789, levied a 15 percent duty on imported nails.

Is that not government intervention??????

Psst...you may not know this, but the economy of America is a tad bit older and was not born in 1789.

[davehollis]

Psst...you may not know this, but the economy of America is a tad big older and was not born in 1789.

Tarriffs are government regulations.You can ignore the truth all day buddy.And the more tax you take from people the more inclined they are to become criminal.:)

[LightinDarkness]

Tarriffs are government regulations.You can ignore the truth all day buddy.

Daviehollis tactic #1: Create straw mans to deflect that you have no idea what you are talking about.


And the more tax you take from people the more inclined they are to become criminal.:)

Davehollis lie #892389230934 (We've lost count).

By the way, dave, it is PAINFULLY obvious that you really have no response to all the points that have debunked you from multiple posters. This has got to be the most one sided JREF smack down of a woo believer that I've seen. I mean, you haven't even contributed anything from page 1 that could be recognized as a even slightly valid argument. You just write insulting one or two liners.

[Greediguts]

And as expected...he didn't read a word. I knew I was typing all that for nothing.



Well, it wasn't for nothing. I read it and appreciated it.


For what it's worth...:)

[Zorglub]

Well, it wasn't for nothing. I read it and appreciated it.


For what it's worth...:)

Yep, same here.:)

[LightinDarkness]

Aw thanks, glad to see someone did read it :)

[Travis]

We need to get this guy in the same room as The Venus Project supporters and then film the results.



ETA: provided he isn't suspended I expect we'll get some Stundie noms from this...........discussion.

[davehollis]

repeat post...

10 Conditions For Transition To Communism from wikipedia

1. Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes.
2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.
3. Abolition of all right of inheritance.
4. Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels.
5. Centralisation of credit in the hands of the State, by means of a national bank with State capital and an exclusive monopoly.
6. Centralisation of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the State.
7. Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the State; the bringing into cultivation of waste-lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.
8. Equal liability of all to labour. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture.
9. Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of the distinction between town and country, by a more equal distribution of the population over the country.
10. Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children's factory labour in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production.




Fascism...

1. Powerful and continuing nationalism
2. Disdain for human rights
3. Identification of enemies / scapegoats as a unifying cause
4. Supremacy of the military
5. Rampant sexism
6. Controlled mass media
7. Obsession with national security
8. Religion and governmment intertwined
9. Corporate power protected
10. Labor power suppressed
11. Disdain for intellectuals and the arts
12. Obsession with crime and punishment
13. Rampant cronyism and corruption
14. Fraudulent elections



Voluntaryanism=none of the above.....

[davehollis]

enjoy your police state much???

[LightinDarkness]

enjoy your police state much???

I wouldn't know since I don't reside in a police state. And neither do you.

I see you still have offered nothing to counter all the points against you. Just going to sit back and rant and hope no one notices that you've been debunked in every way imaginable?

[LightinDarkness]

repeat post...

Spam much?


10 Conditions For Transition To Communism from wikipedia

1. Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes.
2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.
3. Abolition of all right of inheritance.
4. Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels.
5. Centralisation of credit in the hands of the State, by means of a national bank with State capital and an exclusive monopoly.
6. Centralisation of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the State.
7. Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the State; the bringing into cultivation of waste-lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.
8. Equal liability of all to labour. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture.
9. Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of the distinction between town and country, by a more equal distribution of the population over the country.
10. Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children's factory labour in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production.

Lets see: The following items are not happening nor likely to happen in the United States or most other western countries I am aware of: 1, 2 (emphasis on "heavy" - not that heavy at all), 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9

Following have occurred: 10 partially, although not really since college isn't free. But I'll give you 10 anyways. If living in a communist police state means that we give public education, I'm all for it. And since when is abolishing child labor a bad thing. Are you advocating for NOT abolishing child labor?




Fascism...

1. Powerful and continuing nationalism
2. Disdain for human rights
3. Identification of enemies / scapegoats as a unifying cause
4. Supremacy of the military
5. Rampant sexism
6. Controlled mass media
7. Obsession with national security
8. Religion and governmment intertwined
9. Corporate power protected
10. Labor power suppressed
11. Disdain for intellectuals and the arts
12. Obsession with crime and punishment
13. Rampant cronyism and corruption
14. Fraudulent elections



Lets see: The following items are not happening nor likely to happen in the United States or most other western countries I am aware of: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14.

7 happens, but there is no evidence to suggest this leads to fascism. Wikipedia is not research.

By the way, "Voluntaryanism" = doesn't exist in anywhere but your feverish imagination. Its called "anarchy" and would in fact lead to most of the things above.

[Travis]

enjoy your police state much???

We can thus conclude that you have no concept of what a "police state" is in the same way you obviously have no idea what "slavery" is. I think a nice field trip is in order. Go to Pyongyang and walk around telling anyone who will listen that you work for the CIA. Twenty years from now, after they release you from the hard labor camp, you can come back and dispense your new found wisdom of what both concepts really mean.

[linusrichard]

Are you advocating for NOT abolishing child labor?

Based on his previous posts, the answer has to be yes. Or, he has some contortions to do.

[davehollis]

We can thus conclude that you have no concept of what a "police state" is in the same way you obviously have no idea what "slavery" is. I think a nice field trip is in order. Go to Pyongyang and walk around telling anyone who will listen that you work for the CIA. Twenty years from now, after they release you from the hard labor camp, you can come back and dispense your new found wisdom of what both concepts really mean.
I will run drugs to destabilise another countries leadership?You clearly have no idea what the cocaine importation agency really does.Or that the military is guarding the poppy fields in Afghanistan.I am sure you would be welcomed to N.Korea with your statist fantasies .

[davehollis]

Based on his previous posts, the answer has to be yes. Or, he has some contortions to do.


What is wrong with kids earning some money in a job rather than roaming the streets bored?I take it you dont get your paper delivered by the paper boy?

[davehollis]

Spam much?



Lets see: The following items are not happening nor likely to happen in the United States or most other western countries I am aware of: 1, 2 (emphasis on "heavy" - not that heavy at all), 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9

Following have occurred: 10 partially, although not really since college isn't free. But I'll give you 10 anyways. If living in a communist police state means that we give public education, I'm all for it. And since when is abolishing child labor a bad thing. Are you advocating for NOT abolishing child labor?







Lets see: The following items are not happening nor likely to happen in the United States or most other western countries I am aware of: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14.

7 happens, but there is no evidence to suggest this leads to fascism. Wikipedia is not research.

By the way, "Voluntaryanism" = doesn't exist in anywhere but your feverish imagination. Its called "anarchy" and would in fact lead to most of the things above.

Keep lying to yourself about your beloved state.It really makes no difference to me.

[Travis]

I will run drugs to destabilise another countries leadership?You clearly have no idea what the cocaine importation agency really does.Or that the military is guarding the poppy fields in Afghanistan.I am sure you would be welcomed to N.Korea with your statist fantasies .

Seeing as how you chose to only try and bash the CIA with your alternate history I will take that as an admission that you have no idea what a "police state" or "slavery" really are.

[JoeyDonuts]

Computer-based activism is awesome! As soon as I can get these meanies on the internet message board to stop being so mean to me, everything will be different! I'll show you! You'll see!

[davehollis]

Seeing as how you chose to only try and bash the CIA with your alternate history I will take that as an admission that you have no idea what a "police state" or "slavery" really are.


A police state exists when the state can legally spy on its own citizens.

People sentenced to prison for "crimes" where there is no victim such as voluntary drug use.I consider this slavery as people are physically removed from society ,sometimes placed in labor camps.

[davehollis]

Computer-based activism is awesome! As soon as I can get these meanies on the internet message board to stop being so mean to me, everything will be different! I'll show you! You'll see!

I am indifferent to your eventual demise.

[Stellafane]

enjoy your police state much???

Oh, come off it. If you really believed that we live in a police state (or any of the other stuff you're spouting), you wouldn't be posting here in this forum. Because you know damn well that most people here consider your ideas muddled and juvenile at best. No, if you really wanted to change things, you'd begin by going to some other forum (and there's plenty out there) populated by like-minded members. Then you could pool your resources and start formulating and putting into action plans for changing the society that you profess to find so odious.

But instead, here you are, apparently wasting your time with people who will never see things the way you do, whom you will never convince that you're anything but a joke, and who will never help you achieve what you claim to want so badly. So why would you do something so obviously useless and impotent? What possible good do you think you're accomplishing here? Indeed, if you truly consider us complicit in totalitarianism and criminality, why give us advance warning of your intentions? Wouldn't that just be counterproductive?

I wouldn't presume to know what goes on in your mind. But it seems to me that what you're doing is often indicative of someone who has no intention whatsoever of ever getting up off their ass and going out to try to change things. Instead, they post in forums like this one and argue with people who don't agree with them, just so at the end of the day they can tell themselves that they've actually done something. Arguing with people with whom you disagree isn't a bad thing of course -- indeed, it's a great way to learn different perspectives and examine your own beliefs. But based on this thread, you have zero interest in intellectual exchange, you just want us to know how much you despise us. OK, so noted -- mission accomplished.

But can we move on now? Because when you just keep using the same buzzwords like "slavery" and "police state," you aren't just exposing your own ignorance as to what those concepts truly mean. You're also insulting those who have actually lived under those conditions, but instead of ranting on uselessly about them, they actually had the energy and guts to go out and at the cost of their own safety and even their lives do something about them. Until you're willing to do that -- to stop wasting your time here and go change the things you insist are so intolerable -- then what you're doing is not merely useless, it borders on cowardice.

[Travis]

A police state exists when the state can legally spy on its own citizens.

Then you have the broadest, and therefore most useless, idea of what a "police state" is that I have yet encountered. I am curious as to how you define what "government spying" is.

People sentenced to prison for "crimes" where there is no victim such as voluntary drug use.I consider this slavery as people are physically removed from society ,sometimes placed in labor camps.

Most people might look at that and, assuming they, like you, agree that non-violent drug offenders shouldn't be in prison, see it as a need to take action to change the laws. You seem to have dispensed with this and decided the problem is the mere existence of "laws" themselves. Of course most people wouldn't have so egregiously misappropriated the term "slavery" either.

[JimBenArm]

I am indifferent to your eventual demise.
Will you be actively pursuing this demise? Is this indifference part of the more caring, loving society you promise? Really? Wow, can't wait to be part of that!

You do realize that you are practically a walking advertisement of every reason NOT do this? I wouldn't give you the keys to my car let alone control of anything of greater consequence. You have to be smarter than the equipment you're using. So far, you haven't shown you are. Snarky, wise-ass, you got. The problem is, that's all you have.

[T.A.M.]

Some day the corruption will be dealt with by the people you all mock.You are just scared to come out of the cages and face responsibilty for your own protection and consequences for your actions.When the so called rulers face the same consequences as everyone else does then you will have an argument for handing over the keys to freedom.

Ok. when that day comes, I'll be waiting.

TAM:)

[T.A.M.]

Do you believe that all men are created equal? Yes( ) No ( )

Do you have a right to violate the rights of another? Yes( ) No( )

Do two or more people have a right to violate the rights of another? Yes( ) No( )

If you answered yes to the above, where does the authority come from to violate my right
to "life, liberty and property"?

If many people can "get together" and violate my rights, can I then get together a larger
group of people to violate your rights??

1. No, all men are not created equal, but all deserve equal rights and treatment under the laws of civilized men and women.

2. I feel I have the right to violate the rights of another in self defense, the defense of my family, or if said person is an imminent danger to other law abiding citizens. Whether legally I actually have such a right, I am unclear, but I will take my chances if the situation arises.

3. Two or more people have the right to violate another similar to #2 above, but also if they are legally given the authority to do so through the laws that govern the country we live in.

4. The right comes from your birth into, and continued existence in a civilized, law governed, and law abiding society. If you do not like it, shut the **** up, gather your crap, and get the **** out!

TAM:)

[ElMondoHummus]

After browsing through this thread, I must admit, I do in fact detect a mass delusion here. But it's got nothing to do with "the state". :D







;) And by "mass", I don't mean many. I mean "huge". I think we all get the point now.

[abenja1]

I am indifferent to your eventual demise.

Truther translation: I am going to enjoy executing you when the SHTF.

[T.A.M.]

After browsing through this thread, I must admit, I do in fact detect a mass delusion here. But it's got nothing to do with "the state". :D


I know exactly what you are referring to....

and stop with the smaller invisquotes!!!!

TAM:)

[JoeyDonuts]

I am indifferent to your eventual demise.

As am I. Your demise is also eventual. So is everybody's as it turns out. And because I'm not sure when my number is going to come up, nor do I think it's particularly intelligent to worry about when the PTB are going to come kicking in my door in this "police state" called the United States of America, I'm not going to waste my breath complaining about the fundamental wrongs of the state. You see, I am a rational person who hasn't been swayed over by some ridiculous Anarcho-Cap ideology. Oh sure, it sounds good. No more evil government! No more corruption! Everybody starts at zero, and it will be fair and balanced for everyone!

Real world doesn't work like that, skippy. It's full of people who do the best they can with what they are given, and a great many of them try to leave their community better than how they found it. And wouldn't you know it, a lot of those people work in *gasp* Government! The problems inherent in democracy are not the fault of the government alone. You will never be able to find a system of bringing various peoples together, and providing for their common defense and welfare, promoting their liberty and protecting their safety that is 100 percent ironclad perfect. You're always going to wind up disappointing somebody. Learn how to compromise. That's how governments and societies keep from tumbling into chaos.

But here you are, in your infinite wisdom, to tell us how everybody is doing it wrong. You claim to have a better way. Good on you. Gather up some of your followers and move to Guyana. I'd wager that your experiment in no-government society ends up the last time somebody tried it in that neck of the woods. You see, you are an arrogant, egotistical, self-important person. As such, you are convinced you have the answers to everything. Anarcho-cap thinking attracts folks like you. If you ever get a commune together you'll be so busy arguing over who's got the best way of doing anything, you'll most likely kill each other or have to set up a system of laws or even worse, COMPROMISE.

And by the way - why do you suddenly make comments about my demise? Would you care to elaborate the manner by which you think it will occur?

[LightinDarkness]

What is wrong with kids earning some money in a job rather than roaming the streets bored?I take it you dont get your paper delivered by the paper boy?

Ding, ding, ding. Lades and gentlemen, our local woo has declared that he is in fact in favor of child labor, since you know, nothing wrong with them earning a little bit of money.

The more you respond the more you ensure no one will ever take you nor your "philosophy" (its not really a philosophy, I'm being generous) seriously.

[Checkmite]

I really do enjoy these people who seem to think that if the government was gotten rid of, all the people of Earth would somehow feel compelled to work together on their own for the benefit of all.

Generally, the first thing any group of people that comes together does is create a set of rules and a system of government, even if they're as rudimentary as "everyone helps with gas" and "it's Bobby's car, so everything has to be run past him first".

[T.A.M.]

I really do enjoy these people who seem to think that if the government was gotten rid of, all the people of Earth would somehow feel compelled to work together on their own for the benefit of all.

Generally, the first thing any group of people that comes together does is create a set of rules and a system of government, even if they're as rudimentary as "everyone helps with gas" and "it's Bobby's car, so everything has to be run past him first".

They all think they are the Heston character from "Planet of the Apes".

TAM:)

[davehollis]

Much like your beloved state I cannot leave this putrid forum.There is no option to delete my account here.Maybe an admin will put me out of my misery and delete my account.
You do not follow your own rules about attacking the argument not the person.But that is ok,we will all die together when the concentration camps and mass forced innoculations begin.Finally all races will be equal in death.

[LightinDarkness]

Much like your beloved state I cannot leave this putrid forum.There is no option to delete my account here.Maybe an admin will put me out of my misery and delete my account.
You do not follow your own rules about attacking the argument not the person.But that is ok,we will all die together when the concentration camps and mass forced innoculations begin.Finally all races will be equal in death.

Yawn. How melodramatic.

You can leave the forum - stop posting. Just like you are free to leave the state. No concentration camps will ever be coming, and forced inoculations are not a bad thing - although I doubt those will ever come either.

[dudalb]

Much like your beloved state I cannot leave this putrid forum.There is no option to delete my account here.Maybe an admin will put me out of my misery and delete my account.
You do not follow your own rules about attacking the argument not the person.But that is ok,we will all die together when the concentration camps and mass forced innoculations begin.Finally all races will be equal in death.


God, we do have another Alex Libman on our hands.

[JimBenArm]

Much like your beloved state I cannot leave this putrid forum.There is no option to delete my account here.Maybe an admin will put me out of my misery and delete my account.
You do not follow your own rules about attacking the argument not the person.But that is ok,we will all die together when the concentration camps and mass forced innoculations begin.Finally all races will be equal in death.
You fail to understand something. You see, there has to be the loyal minions to run the camps. That'll be the smart ones, that don't whine and annoy everyone. The ones that do that will get the forced innoculations. I'll be GIVING them, and enjoying living in your former basement, eating your former chips, and banging your former girlfriend. So, you still won't be my equal. Sorry, you lose again!
Oh, and just ask the mods to unregister your account in forum management. Or, just leave. We don't care. Really, we don't.

[T.A.M.]

Much like your beloved state I cannot leave this putrid forum.There is no option to delete my account here.Maybe an admin will put me out of my misery and delete my account.
You do not follow your own rules about attacking the argument not the person.But that is ok,we will all die together when the concentration camps and mass forced innoculations begin.Finally all races will be equal in death.

awesome...see you there (I'll be wearing the "Freedom Sucks" shirt)!

TAM:)

[JimBenArm]

awesome...see you there (I'll be wearing the "Freedom Sucks" shirt)!

TAM:)
But I thought you were the one going to prescribe the evil vaccines!

[Hans]

Oh my some serious misinformation in the thread

So we live in a police state yet you are publicly denouncing the state. I've live in near "police state" where to talk again the government was a crime. You're incredibly immature.

Free markets? You mean people able to form a monopoly-monopolies are a bad thing - remember the robber barons?

My favorite questions for utopia believers:

In your world explain, in detail, how a wooden doll maker in Nara, Japan could buy and obtain a live Maine lobster . Remember there are no states, no governments.

Let me know how and why that lobster gets there. Good luck

[JoeyDonuts]

Much like your beloved state I cannot leave this putrid forum.There is no option to delete my account here.Maybe an admin will put me out of my misery and delete my account.
You do not follow your own rules about attacking the argument not the person.But that is ok,we will all die together when the concentration camps and mass forced innoculations begin.Finally all races will be equal in death.

Yeah. We've seen this before. You can't defend your position against scrutiny and reason, so you cross your arms and stamp your feet like a child that just got told 'no candy before dinner.'

You don't want to be here, then GO! Door's that way. I'd really rather you stuck around and let some of the reason and logic of this place have a chance at getting through to you. Then you might realize a thing or two, and learn and grow as a person.

Then again, you might not.

[Travis]

It appears he did have himself set to "Guest" status. I guess he needs to go bone up on more Youtube videos to prepare for his inevitable comeback attempt.

[Alareth]

There is a glaring flaw inn the concepts and ideas in the OP.

Once you add humans into the mix it all falls apart. Human nature is incompatible with touchy feely ideals.

[Travis]

There is a glaring flaw inn the concepts and ideas in the OP.

Once you add humans into the mix it all falls apart. Human nature is incompatible with touchy feely ideals.

Understatement of the century.......so far.

[dudalb]

It appears he did have himself set to "Guest" status. I guess he needs to go bone up on more Youtube videos to prepare for his inevitable comeback attempt.


And memorize more passages from Ayn Rand, no doubt.

[fullflavormenthol]

And memorize more passages from Ayn Rand...

...as interpreted by a 13 year old emo girl.

But that is ok,we will all die together when the concentration camps and mass forced innoculations begin.Finally all races will be equal in death.

Its like someone merged Atlas Shrugged with Twilight.

[Hokulele]

Its like someone merged Atlas Shrugged with Twilight.


Awesome. Nominated for the Pith Poll. :D

[stateofgrace]

Much like your beloved state I cannot leave this putrid forum.There is no option to delete my account here.Maybe an admin will put me out of my misery and delete my account.
You do not follow your own rules about attacking the argument not the person.But that is ok,we will all die together when the concentration camps and mass forced innoculations begin.Finally all races will be equal in death.

Yeah man I understand your frustration. The frustration of being the most intelligence being on the planet if not the entire universe and being thrown among these mere mortals to cast your words of wisdom.

You have done the right thing, withdrawn from such pitiful lowly form of debate and rejoined the gods that you are clearly one of.

I humbly bow before your higher presence and stand in awe at the shadow you cast over this forum.






PS. I am joking, you are a dickhead.

[Cl1mh4224rd]

Much like your beloved state I cannot leave this putrid forum.There is no option to delete my account here.


Did anyone else notice this? This says one of two things to me: 1) It never occurred to him to just stop visiting the site, or 2) it did occur to him, but he admits to having absolutely no willpower whatsoever.

He'll make a great freedom-fighter. :rolleyes:

[Hans]

Dave's ideas are great, good theory - WRONG species however

[Klimax]

repeat post...

10 Conditions For Transition To Communism from wikipedia

1. Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes.
2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.
3. Abolition of all right of inheritance.
4. Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels.
5. Centralisation of credit in the hands of the State, by means of a national bank with State capital and an exclusive monopoly.
6. Centralisation of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the State.
7. Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the State; the bringing into cultivation of waste-lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.
8. Equal liability of all to labour. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture.
9. Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of the distinction between town and country, by a more equal distribution of the population over the country.
10. Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children's factory labour in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production.


half-2,7,full 10. ; Czech Republic (previously part of CSSR - Czechoslovak socialist republic...)
2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.
7. Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the State; the bringing into cultivation of waste-lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.

If I understood those points correctly... (we have some big wastelands after mining and such)

Fascism...

1. Powerful and continuing nationalism
2. Disdain for human rights
3. Identification of enemies / scapegoats as a unifying cause
4. Supremacy of the military
5. Rampant sexism
6. Controlled mass media
7. Obsession with national security
8. Religion and governmment intertwined
9. Corporate power protected
10. Labor power suppressed
11. Disdain for intellectuals and the arts
12. Obsession with crime and punishment
13. Rampant cronyism and corruption
14. Fraudulent elections


none,except somewhat 13...

[T.A.M.]

I guess Mr. Hollis took our advice, and has picked up his belongings and moved into the mountains to start his own independent nation...lol

TAM:)

[Travis]

....and he did it without all the melodrama of a suicide by mod. I'll give him points for that.

[Hans]

Or he's one of those, 'post only from work' not on 'my own time'...types of dudes

[teedot]

Godwin's Law itself can be abused, as a distraction, diversion or even censorship, that fallaciously miscasts an opponent's argument as hyperbole, especially if the comparisons made by the argument are actually appropriate. A 2005 Reason magazine article argued that Godwin's Law is often misused to ridicule even valid comparisons.

Sorry, did I miss where you cited your source here re: Godwin's Law? It looks like a copy/paste from Wikipedia. I can't paste links 'cause I'm new but the above is word-for-word on the Wiki entry for "Godwin's Law".

[T.A.M.]

Sorry, did I miss where you cited your source here re: Godwin's Law? It looks like a copy/paste from Wikipedia. I can't paste links 'cause I'm new but the above is word-for-word on the Wiki entry for "Godwin's Law".

That's alright, there is a distinct change that the OP was someone elses writing, yet he did not source it either.

TAM:)