More alarming news from Iraq

[TillEulenspiegel]

I just finshed watching 60 minutes, a segment called " Operation Iraqi freedom?"

It contained some disturbing concepts and images of US forces and the political leadership under Paul Bremmer acting more like jackbooted thugs in germanay 1939 rather then representitives of the US as a bastion of freedom. This is in addition to increased late night raids/round ups with ( mass ) punitive punishment ( blowing up apartment buildings , ect. )in the quest for peace. Seems as tho the hawks that play general never learn that this kind of stance is counter productive. Evedently we not only have borrowed a page from the Israeli handbook o' war , we seem to have stolen the book.

I wish the entire piece was avalable for you to view, as of 8PM EST Sun Dec. 7 it is not. link here : http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/12/04/60minutes/main586841.shtml

Comments?

P.S I am talking about the US and it's actions in Iraq. I prefere not to hear the normal frothing diatribes from the monomaniacs in the anti-Israel, anti-Arab threads. TY

[American]

The most disturbing news (to you) is that millions of Iraqis are free and there will be no more genocides on the Kurds or other mass killings that keep the Husseins in power. Seems not a single young woman has been raped by Uday or Qusay since we killed them.

Most disturbing, to you. It might even cost you the election.

[Mr Manifesto]

Originally posted by American
The most disturbing news (to you) is that millions of Iraqis are free and there will be no more genocides on the Kurds or other mass killings that keep the Husseins in power. Seems not a single young woman has been raped by Uday or Qusay since we killed them.

Most disturbing, to you. It might even cost you the election.

No, now there will be mass killings by Americans, the way God meant it to be.

[Judith]

“The U.S. officers in charge of the city have never explained to the people why they've arrested these people,” says Shahristani. “They only told the city council that they have good reasons for these arrests, which they are not going to share with them.”

This isn't the first news of this. Rounding up people. Night raids. Kids killed. A long and horrible mess this Iraq will be as they hate us more and more.
Thanks to Bush and his 'nation building'
:(

[corplinx]

My only comment is that this is typical Steve Kroft. I remember his fair and balanced hit piece on the California 3-strikes policy.

[peptoabysmal]

I don't object to taking a hard line military stance in a newly "liberated" country. It is necessary until Iraq can establish national security. You let your guard down in a country like this and you will end up with an RPG up your arse.

I think we were correct in not letting every town set up it's own government, because that would lead to an eventual civil war.

I do think however, that we are dropping the ball by appointing former Ba'athist regime members to any post. Those guys should be in jail, not setting up shop again.

[Garrette]

I think, Pepto, that there is a confusion of terms, or at least the risk of one.

Being hardline is not the same as being indiscriminate, which appears to be the allegation.

Regarding the Ba'ath Party regime members, you have to define it carefully and then consider the consequences. In the Ministry of Education, we are suffering mightily from the Ba'athist legacy. To be anything above teacher required Ba'ath Party membership. To be anything above Headmaster/mistress required active membership. The Ministry overflowed with Ba'athists. Most were just filling a position to justify receiving a paycheck, but some were in the few positions of authority and so made decisions.

Now they're gone. With whom do we replace them? No one else has the experience to make decisions or run an organization. For the most part, the Iraqis actively resist making decisions or taking responsibility. [I]{Note: I am not saying this as an observation of character; it is the result of a generation-plus of being prevented from making decisions or acting autonomously; they must relearn that now}.

A few are stepping up to the plate. A smaller few are succeeding. Many are, for all intents and purposes, floundering, but they are who we have.

[bangdazap]

Originally posted by American
The most disturbing news (to you) is that millions of Iraqis are free and there will be no more genocides on the Kurds or other mass killings that keep the Husseins in power.
Mass killings carried out with american support incidently, but I guess the PC thought cops don't want me to say that..

[LFTKBS]

Originally posted by American
The most disturbing news (to you) is that millions of Iraqis are free and there will be no more genocides on the Kurds or other mass killings that keep the Husseins in power. Seems not a single young woman has been raped by Uday or Qusay since we killed them.

Most disturbing, to you. It might even cost you the election.

Can I just point out that the Iraqi government was run by maniacs and sadists on the first day of GWB's term, yet there was no attempt to go to war then?

Can I also point out this wonderful little nugget by C. Powell in February 2001?

"We had a good discussion, the [Egyptian] Foreign Minister and I and the President and I, had a good discussion about the nature of the sanctions -- the fact that the sanctions exist -- not for the purpose of hurting the Iraqi people, but for the purpose of keeping in check Saddam Hussein's ambitions toward developing weapons of mass destruction. We should constantly be reviewing our policies, constantly be looking at those sanctions to make sure that they are directed toward that purpose. That purpose is every bit as important now as it was ten years ago when we began it. And frankly they have worked. He has not developed any significant capability with respect to weapons of mass destruction. He is unable to project conventional power against his neighbors."

Or perhaps the Bush Administration is so incompetent that even though Clinton prevented the development of Iraqi WMD throughout his two terms, it only took two years to get up to speed after GWB took office? Is that it?

Is there a handout that you get sent by the RNC, American, that outlines this stick-your-hands-in-your-ears-and-yell "LA LA LA! I CAN'T HEAR YOU" ridiculousness? Seriously, what is it?

[American]

Originally posted by LFTKBS

that outlines this stick-your-hands-in-your-ears-and-yell "LA LA LA! I CAN'T HEAR YOU" ridiculousness? Seriously, what is it?

Not hands in our ears, more like head up your ass... America hears you loud and clear. We don't like you. Nothing personal, we just don't.

[fishbob]

Is that the royal "we" or are you having a schizophrenic episode?

Face this simple fact; American soldiers are dying and Iraqi civilians are dying because the administration run by your hero has bungled the post invasion occupation in Iraq.

[LFTKBS]

Originally posted by American


Not hands in our ears, more like head up your ass... America hears you loud and clear. We don't like you. Nothing personal, we just don't.

Let me just verify:

1) You have no reponse to Bush's ambivalence toward Saddam Hussein during the first two years of his term.

2) You have no response to Powell's assertion in February 2001 that Iraq posed no threat either to America or to Iraq's neighbors.

3) You have no reponse to the fact that the Bush administration is so incompetent that Iraq was (allegedly) able to develop WMD in less than two years after Bush was inaugurated, while remaining powerless during the years of the Clinton administration.

Now, with regards to: "America hears you loud and clear. We don't like you. Nothing personal, we just don't."

Who is America, and who is this "you"? Is "you" the collection of both left-wingers and right-wingers who are against the war in Iraq? Does "you" refer only to me? Is "you" anyone who refuses to accept the repeated lies of the President and his Cabinet?

American, is there anything GWB could do that would upset you? Or are you so devoted to Dear Leader that he has become a deity in your eyes, unable to do wrong?

[American]

Originally posted by fishbob

Face this simple fact; American soldiers are dying and Iraqi civilians are dying because the administration run by your hero has bungled the post invasion occupation in Iraq.


That was decided the moment we committed to the war. They were doomed from the start, as we fully know what a war entails.

You add nothing when you say those things. You only exploit their pain for politics. It would be like my saying WW2 should not have been fought, because we killed innocents and our soldiers died.

[Cain]

Originally posted by American
The most disturbing news (to you) is that millions of Iraqis are free and there will be no more genocides on the Kurds or other mass killings that keep the Husseins in power.

What about the Kurds tortured and killed in Turkey, an important US client state that receives considerable financial and diplomatic support?

I guess there are good Kurds and bad Kurds.

For example, in the 80s we could ignore violence against the Kurds (arguably at its height) because we supported Saddam against Iran.

EDIT: I'll post the transcript when it becomes available on LexisNexis. Or rather, a partial transcript because I don't want to violate the incredibly silly forum rule against infringing on a media conglomerate's "intellectual property."

[Tricky]

Originally posted by LFTKBS
Who is America, and who is this "you"? Is "you" the collection of both left-wingers and right-wingers who are against the war in Iraq? Does "you" refer only to me? Is "you" anyone who refuses to accept the repeated lies of the President and his Cabinet?
As a proud, freedom-loving American, l can state without ambiguity that the Ugly American who posts here does not speak for me, and I doubt that he represents anyone but the radical fringe of right wing politics in the USA. Our non-US posters here should take anything he says about how America feels with a very large grain of salt.

[American]

Originally posted by LFTKBS

Let me just verify:

1) You have no reponse to Bush's ambivalence toward Saddam Hussein during the first two years of his term.

2) You have no response to Powell's assertion in February 2001 that Iraq posed no threat either to America or to Iraq's neighbors.

3) You have no reponse to the fact that the Bush administration is so incompetent that Iraq was (allegedly) able to develop WMD in less than two years after Bush was inaugurated, while remaining powerless during the years of the Clinton administration.

Now, with regards to: "America hears you loud and clear. We don't like you. Nothing personal, we just don't."

Who is America, and who is this "you"? Is "you" the collection of both left-wingers and right-wingers who are against the war in Iraq? Does "you" refer only to me? Is "you" anyone who refuses to accept the repeated lies of the President and his Cabinet?

American, is there anything GWB could do that would upset you? Or are you so devoted to Dear Leader that he has become a deity in your eyes, unable to do wrong?


Stop pretending I care what you have to say. I read 10% of your crap, hoping to glimpse some bit of reason. Yet the more you talk, the more obsolete you become by your own childish views.

The last 3 years have not been about Bush or Iraq or terrorism, as Rush Limbaugh is not about Conservatism. It's all about YOU. You liberals have been put on display for the average person to see, thanks to FOX and talk radio. I don't care about Bush, I care about keeping you out of power. Evidence being that my fantastic life came from years of conservative discipline at every job I had (working on loading docks and behind cash registers), while my liberal pseudo-hippie friends of the same age are currently making lattes and helping retards use the sh*tter for $12 an hour. (If they stopped complaining 24 hours a day, they'd start to see changes. But if they haven't by now, then they probably never will.)

That said, I lied. It is personal.

[LFTKBS]

Originally posted by American



Stop pretending I care what you have to say. I read 10% of your crap, hoping to glimpse some bit of reason. Yet the more you talk, the more obsolete you become by your own childish views.

-snip-

That said, I lied. It is personal.

So then your answers are:

1) No response.
2) No response.
3) No response.
Re: your undying love of Dear Leader: No reponse, and there is literally nothing he could do that would upset you.

And you admit that you are a liar. Good show, American.

[Tricky]

Originally posted by American
Evidence being that my fantastic life came from years of conservative discipline at every job I had (working on loading docks and behind cash registers), while my liberal pseudo-hippie friends of the same age are currently making lattes and helping retards use the sh*tter for $12 an hour.
But oddly, even with this wildly successful life you lead...
(From the JREF Community (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/newreply.php?s=&action=newreply&postid=1870220285) forum.)
Originally posted by American
- Although I'm pretty rich for a boy my age, I ain't rich enough to get the snowblower that I want.

(In case any of you wondered about the wild, carefree life of the conservative Jet Set.)

[Mycroft]

Originally posted by LFTKBS

Let me just verify:

1) You have no reponse to Bush's ambivalence toward Saddam Hussein during the first two years of his term.

2) You have no response to Powell's assertion in February 2001 that Iraq posed no threat either to America or to Iraq's neighbors.

3) You have no reponse to the fact that the Bush administration is so incompetent that Iraq was (allegedly) able to develop WMD in less than two years after Bush was inaugurated, while remaining powerless during the years of the Clinton administration.


Isn’t the topic of this thread about what we’re doing in Iraq rather than why we went there to begin with?

[Tony]

Originally posted by Tricky

As a proud, freedom-loving American, l can state without ambiguity that the Ugly American who posts here does not speak for me, and I doubt that he represents anyone but the radical fringe of right wing politics in the USA. Our non-US posters here should take anything he says about how America feels with a very large grain of salt.


Freedom-loving? Stop lying Tricky, you're better than that. ;)

[TillEulenspiegel]

I just think that the idea of our sons and daughters acting like storm troopers is unconsionable. Didn't we see these tactics used in Vietnam, dont we see what they produce in the mid-east? It's not the fact that we are capable of commiting these crimes we've had our Me Li's and No Gun Re's and if we learned anthing from WW ll is was not that monsters can commit these things but perfectly ordinary people can. The things that bother me is 1 that knowing history we do it anyway and 2 as a policy of the American government, not some 18 yr.old Israili or american kid who suddenly snaps.

As far as any editoral slant all I can say is you should've seen the brodcast, if you didn't then make no judgments.

[Tricky]

Originally posted by Tony
Freedom-loving? Stop lying Tricky, you're better than that. ;)
Well thank you, but I'm not sure what is better than "freedom-loving."

[Tony]

Originally posted by Tricky

Well thank you, but I'm not sure what is better than "freedom-loving."

I dont think you want to go there, if so, you would be in the same camp with freedom-loving fanatics like me. :)

[LFTKBS]

Originally posted by Mycroft
Isn’t the topic of this thread about what we’re doing in Iraq rather than why we went there to begin with?

American posited that "The most disturbing news (to you) is that millions of Iraqis are free and there will be no more genocides on the Kurds or other mass killings that keep the Husseins in power. Seems not a single young woman has been raped by Uday or Qusay since we killed them."

I countered with those facts outlined above. This war is not about the liberation of Iraqis, and it never has been. It's also a bit disingenuous to say that this is about a) freeing Iraqis or b) stopping Uday and Qusay when there are at least 8,000 dead Iraqi civilians because of this war, in addition to at least 445 American soldiers and 85 other coalition soldiers who have been killed.

American doesn't care about Iraqis. That much is clear. Nor does he care about democracy or freedom or the soldiers and citizens who uphold it, judging from pretty much every post of his. Further, he doesn't care why we went to war, based on his continued silence to what should be rather simple questions. I don't know what he expects to get from this war, but I do know that history will not judge it kindly.

Our motives are pretty goddamn relevant when innocent people are dying.

[Regnad Kcin]

Originally posted by American
You liberals have been put on display for the average person to see, thanks to FOX and talk radio. Ah yes, the lying liars and their lies.

Speaking of which, do such bastions of higher thought agree with you as to how much of a whore kidnap victim Elizabeth Smart is?

[LFTKBS]

Originally posted by Regnad Kcin
Ah yes, the lying liars and their lies.

Speaking of which, do such bastions of higher thought agree with you as to how much of a whore kidnap victim Elizabeth Smart is?

Regnad, I think it's safe to say that American has once again tucked his tail between his legs and run off, never to post here again.

[American]

Originally posted by Regnad Kcin
Ah yes, the lying liars and their lies.

Speaking of which, do such bastions of higher thought agree with you as to how much of a whore kidnap victim Elizabeth Smart is?


That stupid little girl should have been arrested for lying to the cops, and maybe treason as well for not resisting the enemy hard enough and surrendering her command (ie, her will to escape).

[Mr Manifesto]

Originally posted by American



That stupid little girl should have been arrested for lying to the cops, and maybe treason as well for not resisting the enemy hard enough and surrendering her command (ie, her will to escape).

Boy, it'd be funny if you ever got abducted.

[Regnad Kcin]

Originally posted by American
That stupid little girl should have been arrested for lying to the cops, and maybe treason as well for not resisting the enemy hard enough and surrendering her command (ie, her will to escape). Be that as it may, did you not refer to her as a "whore?"

[American]

Originally posted by Regnad Kcin
Be that as it may, did you not refer to her as a "whore?"


I stand by everything I ever said or done, at least 95% of it.

[Tony]

Originally posted by American



That stupid little girl should have been arrested for lying to the cops, and maybe treason as well for not resisting the enemy hard enough and surrendering her command (ie, her will to escape).

She was 14 you idiot, how is a 14 year old girl suppose to fight off a grown man?

[Jessica Blue]

The "enemy"...her "command"...? Was she in the army?

American, is it true you're chapter president of the Rednecks 'r us Militia Group? What do you guys really get up to in the woods...?

[Tricky]

Originally posted by Tony
She was 14 you idiot, how is a 14 year old girl suppose to fight off a grown man?
Uh oh, American. Tony has called you an idiot. There goes your power base. Tony gets a few points though for recognizing when the right wing has gone too far.

[American]

Originally posted by Tony


She was 14 you idiot, how is a 14 year old girl suppose to fight off a grown man?


Her escape and evasion skills were admittedly lacking. Not her fault.


My bad, Lizzy. No hard feelings? :)

[Tony]

Originally posted by American



Her escape and evasion skills were admittedly lacking. Not her fault.


My bad, Lizzy. No hard feelings? :)


I just thought it was extremely unreasonable of you to expect an unarmed 14 year old girl to defend herself against an adult male.

[Tony]

Originally posted by Tricky

Uh oh, American. Tony has called you an idiot. There goes your power base. Tony gets a few points though for recognizing when the right wing has gone too far.


Are you being serious?

[Ipecac]

Originally posted by Tony
I just thought it was extremely unreasonable of you to expect an unarmed 14 year old girl to defend herself against an adult male.

We went through this with American a few months ago. He's either the biggest idiot on the planet or just jerking us around. He seems to think that young girls, kidnapped at knifepoint, taken away and forcibly raped should be blamed for the crimes committed against them.

Just ignore his blitherings on this topic.

[Mr Manifesto]

Originally posted by Ipecac

He seems to think that young girls, kidnapped at knifepoint, taken away and forcibly raped should be blamed for the crimes committed against them.


Well, she was leading him on...



(ducks)