Your advice on facing a religious family

[mithal]

Dear Forum members,

I'm at a difficult juncture in life and need some advice.

I'm 22 year old guy from India. I am in a middle class, well-to-do family. I'm employed in a profession I love and a job I'm good at.

I'm an atheist (agnostic if you want to be really specific). My family is not.

My parents care deeply about me. They've made immense sacrifices to get us where we are today (their generation wasn't as well to do).

As a result of my parents religious beliefs, upbringing and social environment, I'm coming to a stage where I'm constantly going against the flow. Be it in beliefs (Astrology, vaastu, etc) or superstitions (certain directions are positive, certain times in day are bad to start something ) or religious practices (an hour or prayer a day, following a strict code for meals, etc).

All of these have made me reclusive and an introvert when with family. I cant recall the last time I started a conversation with my dad.

Over the past few months, they've tried to approached me, and asked me to be more inclusive and spend more time with them. I've spend many nights silently wondering how I should come out and call them out on their irrational belief system.

My parents hold their religious faith in very high regard. It is an identity. My non-practicing of various codes pains them to no end. I know that telling them about my beliefs will break their heart... beyond that I dont know how they'll react. They have high expectations of me in being a model conformist child.. expectations I cannot deliver.

I know I need to face the truth, and come out. I'll probably have to leave home.. the social pressures of a non-confirmist like me would be too much for them. My ideologies will "hang their faces in shame" even if there's no objective reason to. They will look upon my beliefs as a judgment on their upbringing ("We didnt bring him up right.. it's our fault"). I care deeply about them ("love" is not something i understand well enough to use here). They are one of the most honest folks I know.. and the most well meaning.

In essence I have to choose between (truth/their unhappiness) or (irrational worldview/their happiness/ my unhappiness). I know the former is the right choice.. but it's a very difficult one.

Has anyone been in the situation I am in. Have you ended up disappointing someone you deeply care about, for the truth. How did you approach coming out of the closet.

What are the best books/other media (introductory, simple english) to introduce a very religious person to the ideas of science and reason?

[Soapy Sam]

Here's a bit of Judeo-Christian dogma to add to your store of Hindu stuff.

"Honour thy father and mother."

They sound like fine people. As do you.
Treat them as such.
Be honest. Be consistent. Be respectful.

Be yourself.

The only way to show them you are a moral person - is to SHOW them.
Be a good person.

Don't expect to solve this problem overnight. Some things take years.
Anger, harsh words, bitterness cannot speed the process up, only slow it down.

To thine own self be true. What follows, follows.

[mithal]

Thanks for your words.. that's what I intend to do. Yet, I can see the look of horror when I go through stuff like fact vs faith, logical fallacies, etc.

I guess what I'm looking for is examples from others who've been through this.. and to learn from their experiences.

[DC]

how I should come out and call them out on their irrational belief system.

why do that?
Internet advice is seldom of any use i guess as i dont know you nor your family, but why concentrate on something that is diffrent between you and your parents?
why not concentrate on something you have in common with them?

[mithal]

Guess I chose the wrong words with "Call them out".. I meant to say how do I discuss the topic of their beliefs with them. This has to be done.. as their my life and theirs are diametrically opposite in this regard.

[laca]

It is not a good way to start this by "calling them out" on their beliefs. Nor a good continuation. What you most probably need is for them to understand and accept you, not to "convert" them.

I'd say Soapy Sam nailed it pretty much.

[laca]

Guess I chose the wrong words with "Call them out".. I meant to say how do I discuss the topic of their beliefs with them. This has to be done.. as their my life and theirs are diametrically opposite in this regard.

Well, there is, as you know, only one true way: the way of science and reason. Try to explain to them rationally why do you feel the way you feel.

[DC]

Guess I chose the wrong words with "Call them out".. I meant to say how do I discuss the topic of their beliefs with them. This has to be done.. as their my life and theirs are diametrically opposite in this regard.

just do it respectfully? respect or atleast accept their belive, i guess you also wish they respect or atleast accept your non belive.

Give them the honest reasons for why you dont belive in their religion. Answer their questions honest and respectfully.

[Baby Nemesis]

Here's a link to the blog of the Indian Rationalist Association. http://www.indianrationalists.blogspot.com/

There's contact information near the bottom of the blog.

Indian Rationalist Association

India's largest rationalist organisation. Founded in 1949. Fights for scientific temper, secularism, freedom of thought and expression. Defends reason and science. Exposes superstition, blind belief, obscurantism, paranormal claims caste-based social divisions and guru-politics nexus. Strives for a post-religious society. President: Sanal Edamaruku Contact: HQ@indianrationalist.org Phone: + 91-11-2275 3255, 6569 9012 Fax:+91-11-22755379

Maybe you could try contacting them to ask their advice, or maybe there's an Indian Rationalist branch near you you could find and get in contact with.

They have some things on the blog that might be helpful. There's an account of an atheist challenging a worker of black magic to kill him live on television. Millions watched while more and more things were tried while the atheist just sat there calmly, laughing sometimes. At the end of the first two-hour try, the one doing the black magic made up all kinds of excuses as to why it hadn't worked. He was challenged to try again that night, and again failed.

India TV, one of India’s major Hindi channels with national outreach, invited Sanal Edamaruku for a discussion on “Tantrik power versus Science”. Pandit Surinder Sharma, who claims to be the tantrik of top politicians and is well known from his TV shows, represented the other side. During the discussion, the tantrik showed a small human shape of wheat flour dough, laid a thread around it like a noose and tightened it. He claimed that he was able to kill
any person he wanted within three minutes by using black magic. Sanal challenged him to try and kill him. ...

[Rasmus]

Guess I chose the wrong words with "Call them out".. I meant to say how do I discuss the topic of their beliefs with them. This has to be done.. as their my life and theirs are diametrically opposite in this regard.

Does it have to be done?

There is a difference between stating what it is you believe and possibly proclaiming that you will not be part of certain rituals, etc. and having an argument about who is right.

Who knows, your parents might even surprise you ...

[westprog]

Does it have to be done?

There is a difference between stating what it is you believe and possibly proclaiming that you will not be part of certain rituals, etc. and having an argument about who is right.

Who knows, your parents might even surprise you ...

It's apparent from the OP that there's a huge gulf in certain cultures between religious practice and atheism that doesn't exist in others.

If you're an English Catholic, for example, you can tell your parents that you don't intend to go to Midnight Mass this Christmas. You might say that you don't intend to have your children baptised. But in terms of your daily life, things will go on pretty much as normal.

This doesn't seem to apply here. Rejecting the religion involves rejecting an entire way of life. It has to seem like a rejection of the parents and the family rather than a disagreement on a particular philosophical point.

Do I have an answer? No. The options are clear - but harsh. Abandon one's own truth to conform, or leave one's family.

[mithal]

This doesn't seem to apply here. Rejecting the religion involves rejecting an entire way of life. It has to seem like a rejection of the parents and the family rather than a disagreement on a particular philosophical point.

Do I have an answer? No. The options are clear - but harsh. Abandon one's own truth to conform, or leave one's family.

Thanks.. you've nailed it. Religion is so entrenched into the culture and everyday life that you cannot simply state your position, and be left alone.

@Baby Nemesis

"There's an account of an atheist challenging a worker of black magic to kill him live on television. "

There's a difference between challenging one superstition and one's whole way of life. I'm aware of the rationalist movement in India.. however I found no sources of help for my situation.

One thing I'm doing is planning on showing COSMOS.. this seems to be one good path for truth and reason.

@all:

Thanks for your support.. I know the paths and the one I must choose.. and am only looking for strength to choose.

[Cainkane1]

You're going to have to put up with religion in your family and society. Religions here to stay and whether we atheists like it or not its a fact of life. If you love your family as you should just put up with the prayers and the woo woo.

I come from a deeply religious family and while I'm unhappy with listening to a prayer before I eat a family dinner I just grin and bear it. You do the same thng.

[Rasmus]

It's apparent from the OP that there's a huge gulf in certain cultures between religious practice and atheism that doesn't exist in others.

True that ...

Do I have an answer? No. The options are clear - but harsh. Abandon one's own truth to conform, or leave one's family.

Mithal seems to have made a choice, anyway and it looks to me more like a question regarding the "how" and no longer the "what". (I may be wrong, of course ...)

Personally, I'd say there's little to lose either way, so it could at least be tried to find some sort of common ground and work things out.

From personal experience I don't think there is anything that can be said to just make believers understand.

[mithal]

I come from a deeply religious family and while I'm unhappy with listening to a prayer before I eat a family dinner I just grin and bear it. You do the same thng.

It would not be just that. It would mean (in my case).. To have them select my wife (arranged marriage), to put up with Godmen, to put up with the family's preconceptions about astrology and homeopathy. You've basically traded your life and values when you choose to bear with it.

[Rasmus]

It would not be just that. It would mean (in my case).. To have them select my wife (arranged marriage),

I can see how that would be asking a bit much.

to put up with Godmen, to put up with the family's preconceptions about astrology and homeopathy.

I am not certain what "Godmen" are, but "putting up" with the preconceptions of others - including family - can work. It might not work for you, perhaps, but it is possible. You don't need to go to a homoeopath just because your parents belief in one. (Just ignore me if you have to, after all.)

You've basically traded your life and values when you choose to bear with it.

Again, this might not be possible for you, but luckily I was able to draw a line that I can live with. It's not an all or nothing deal.

[laca]

It's apparent from the OP that there's a huge gulf in certain cultures between religious practice and atheism that doesn't exist in others.


Very true.


If you're an English Catholic, for example, you can tell your parents that you don't intend to go to Midnight Mass this Christmas. You might say that you don't intend to have your children baptised. But in terms of your daily life, things will go on pretty much as normal.


I was a roman catholic for example and struggled for years about how to tell my parents (especially my father) that I just think it's bull and I don't want to do it anymore. When he found out (I actually didn't get around to it, shame on me), he took it really well. I'm not saying he was happy. But he got it and let me be me.


This doesn't seem to apply here. Rejecting the religion involves rejecting an entire way of life. It has to seem like a rejection of the parents and the family rather than a disagreement on a particular philosophical point.

Do I have an answer? No. The options are clear - but harsh. Abandon one's own truth to conform, or leave one's family.

Harsh is an understatement... Surely there must be a middle ground.

[Baby Nemesis]

@Baby Nemesis ...

There's a difference between challenging one superstition and one's whole way of life. I'm aware of the rationalist movement in India.. however I found no sources of help for my situation.

Yes. What I was thinking was that telling your family about it might be a first step in being able to explain why you don't hold to their beliefs, if you need to justify yourself. Several illustrations like that could perhaps help some people come around to your way of thinking so they don't feel so bad about you having changed your views. Then again, it might just cause more arguments. Still, if you're planning on showing them something else that might help them understand your views more, hopefully that'll help.

Are you saying you tried contacting the Indian Rationalist Association and they didn't help you? That's a pity, because they'd know a lot more about the cultural issues that make it so much more difficult to reject your family's religion than it would be for a lot of Westerners than most people would here, and so could perhaps give you more insightful moral support and suggestions.

I am not certain what "Godmen" are,

You can read a bit about them in this news article: India Opening its Eyes to Tricksters Who Prey on Blind Faith (Reuters, Oct 2002). (http://www.rickross.com/reference/general/general488.html)

[mithal]

Are you saying you tried contacting the Indian Rationalist Association and they didn't help you?

NO, that's not what I'm saying.. these guys are doing very good work. I'd not tried contacting them.. mainly because they didnt seem to be the right organization for this. On second thoughts though.. perhaps they would have valuable insight.

[mithal]

Harsh is an understatement... Surely there must be a middle ground.

I'm afraid not.. atleast I don't see one in my case.

[Rasmus]

Surely there must be a middle ground.

In my experience: Only to the extend that you are willing to give up your ground, not touch certain subjects, compromise your position and pretend that things are a-okay.

I'm coward enough to do that, but I can see that this is not possible for everybody and I respect those who make their point and stick to it.

There is no middle ground in the facts, though.

[maddog]

Here's a bit of Judeo-Christian dogma to add to your store of Hindu stuff.

"Honour thy father and mother."

They sound like fine people. As do you.
Treat them as such.
Be honest. Be consistent. Be respectful.

Be yourself.

The only way to show them you are a moral person - is to SHOW them.
Be a good person.

Don't expect to solve this problem overnight. Some things take years.
Anger, harsh words, bitterness cannot speed the process up, only slow it down.

To thine own self be true. What follows, follows.

What Soapy Sam said is EXTREMELY WISE. I suggest you read it and re-read it.

Then take a deep breath, be patient, and very simply plan one or two ways that you can gently express yourself. Look for an opportunity where one of your parents says something like "It's time that we arrange for ..." some activity that involves you. Then you reply - very respectfully - "You know Mom, Dad, I've been thinking about that, and I don't think I'm comfortable with doing that." And see how they react. Maybe they will be more understanding than you think. Remember that this could be a big change for them, so be patient and give them time to get used to the idea that you are going in a different direction.

In any case, I suggest that you keep repeating how much you care for your parents and how much you respect them. This will serve you very well. Remember that you are not rejecting them personally - though it may feel that way to them - you are choosing not to do some of the things that they do and believe. Say it as a positive choice for you, not as a rejection of them.

I would try to phrase it like this: "I understand that it is important to you, and I respect your belief, but I don't feel the same way about that. I know you want me to do this because you care about me and want what is best for me, and I appreciate that. However, I have given this a lot of thought, and I would like to do something else instead."

Accept and respect them for who they are
Understand what is important to them and why
Emphasize your respect and appreciation
and THEN
Express that you would like to do something different, as a positive for you.


You sound like a fine young man with fine parents. Be respectful and gentle, and give them time to understand and adapt to you.

Best wishes,
Maddog

[Baby Nemesis]

In my experience: Only to the extend that you are willing to give up your ground, not touch certain subjects, compromise your position and pretend that things are a-okay.

I'm coward enough to do that, but I can see that this is not possible for everybody and I respect those who make their point and stick to it.

There is no middle ground in the facts, though.

It's one thing when it's just a matter of philosophical belief. It's quite another when it could quite possibly be a matter of standing back and seeing your family being defrauded or subjected to anxiety because of their beliefs, or to see them not seeking adequate healthcare because they trust in homeopathy or some other remedy ill-equipped to cure them.

This is the kind of thing belief in astrology can lead to in extreme cases: Planetary Panic Leaves Town Deserted (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/337932.stm)

Or this, from an article that doesn't seem to be on the Internet any more but I have the quote:

"... Astrology is nothing short of a national obsession in India, where many people consult an astrologer over every important decision in their life, from when and whom to marry to which subject to study at university, when to buy a house or change job. Their pronouncements are treated with the utmost seriousness.
The rich often employ their own personal astrologer to be on hand at all times.

Bombay astrologer Dharshi Gajaria is warning against all marriages between now and next April but says it is particularly important for anyone living between two Indian rivers - the Ganges and the Godavari. ...

In the Gujarat city of Ahmedabad, astrologer Bhupendra Soni has alarmed many couples with his dire warnings. Marriages entered into at this time, he says, could be troubled, barren or fail to produce a son. “The effect of this constellation is that those marrying in this period won’t have a male child or could have children with physical problems,” he said. ...

For now, the confusion looks set to keep Bhushan’s phone ringing day and night. “Some people who are phoning me are in a terrible panic,” he added. ..."

[westprog]

It would not be just that. It would mean (in my case).. To have them select my wife (arranged marriage), to put up with Godmen, to put up with the family's preconceptions about astrology and homeopathy. You've basically traded your life and values when you choose to bear with it.

I think it's difficult from people from a Western background who come from what they might describe as extremely religious people to see how different it is elsewhere. Most people in the Christian West lead very similar lives regardless of religion. That is not the case elsewhere.

[mithal]

What Soapy Sam said is EXTREMELY WISE. I suggest you read it and re-read it.


Thanks Maddog.. I already have. Your suggestions are equally insightful. Thank you.

[Patsy]

It seems to me that how this ends is ultimately in the hands of your family. My opinion is, the best course you can take is to be honest about who you are, and express that you are willing to accept and respect your family for who they are, up to the point where they try to interfere in your life (i.e. choosing a wife for you) and no further, and that you would like the same acceptance and respect from them. It is then up to them whether they can accept and love the person you are, on your terms, or not.

Do I think it is pretty awful you could possibly lose your family over this? Yes. But I also think that it is the only course compatible with maintaining your right to direct your own life, and with maintaining your self-respect.

[Marduk]

I am not certain what "Godmen" are.

Hi Rasmus,
Godmen are self professed holy men who have an ability to exorcise ghosts, levitate or pull a gold chain out of thin air or perform any other kind of act which could be claimed uses divine power

Mithal, if I were you I'd play lip service to your parents beliefs, they have the right to believe what they want.

I am quite sure they would understand your wish to marry for love rather than tradition, maybe you should start there by telling them that you're dating and getting yourself a girlfriend you can introduce to them, Hinduism has plenty of religious texts that claim other beliefs are valid and that all are valid in love and marrying outside of hinduism is a long established tradition. You could also suggest perhaps to your father that adopting western ways would lead to more success in a western culture and see what he says to that. At the end of the day Hinduism more than any other is a religion of forgiveness and understanding, so if they go too hard on you perhaps you should mention that
this may assist you
http://hindutempleonline.com/default.aspx
this website will connect you to Hindu priests in your area, perhaps discussing your issues with them will give you the information/ammunition you need to confront your parents from their own direction

My mother insists that belief is important in an adult, when I asked her in what way her belief had enriched my life she stated, if she hadn't believed my father worthwhile then I wouldn't be asking the question. Bit of a smart arse my mother
;)

[Unlike a Bull]

Here's what I would do:

Get a bunch of dung, put it in a paper bag, put it on your father's doorstep, light it on fire, ring the doorbell, and hide behind something. When your father comes out, he will try to put out the fire by stepping on it only to find he now as dung on his shoe. This is where you stroll on over, and explain that if your father had used logic and reason to try to find the truth about the flaming bag, rather than accepting the socially held norm to extinguish the fire with his shoe, he wouldn't be in this predicament. You can then calmly explain that you used this same logic and reason to come to the conclusion that his beliefs are wrong. Try to emphasize the parallel between the fruits of his beliefs and the dung on his shoe.

[Monster Machine]

Great advice, Unlike a Bull. I can see where mithal would be showing lots of respect to the parents he cares for.

:rolleyes:

Mithal - I can only offer this: don't attack them for following what you think is ridiculous. Keep in mind that you care for them.


Monster

[Marduk]

Here's what I would do:

Get a bunch of dung, put it in a paper bag, put it on your father's doorstep, light it on fire, ring the doorbell, and hide behind something. When your father comes out, he will try to put out the fire by stepping on it only to find he now as dung on his shoe. This is where you stroll on over, and explain that if your father had used logic and reason to try to find the truth about the flaming bag, rather than accepting the socially held norm to extinguish the fire with his shoe, he wouldn't be in this predicament. You can then calmly explain that you used this same logic and reason to come to the conclusion that his beliefs are wrong. Try to emphasize the parallel between the fruits of his beliefs and the dung on his shoe.

what if he sees flames at his front door and fears its a hate crime and doesn't come out and the house catches fire and everyone is killed in the ensuing inferno

every great plan has drawbacks
:p

[Baby Nemesis]

Here's what I would do:

Get a bunch of dung, put it in a paper bag, put it on your father's doorstep, light it on fire, ring the doorbell, and hide behind something. When your father comes out, he will try to put out the fire by stepping on it only to find he now as dung on his shoe. This is where you stroll on over, and explain that if your father had used logic and reason to try to find the truth about the flaming bag, rather than accepting the socially held norm to extinguish the fire with his shoe, he wouldn't be in this predicament. You can then calmly explain that you used this same logic and reason to come to the conclusion that his beliefs are wrong. Try to emphasize the parallel between the fruits of his beliefs and the dung on his shoe.

Hmmm, and what's the aim of this little strategy exactly?? Do you not think that if he wanted his family to disown him, all he need do is tell them, "I'm an atheist; I've rejected your superstitions as backward and useless; go on, disown me if you like; see if I care!" That way, he ruins his relationship with his parents just as your suggested strategy would have him do, but he doesn't risk burning the house down or damaging his father's shoes! Far more convenient! [/sarcasm]

Now exactly why you're suggesting an idea that would ruin his relationship with his parents, I've no idea. Perhaps you'd like to explain? :D

[Cainkane1]

It would not be just that. It would mean (in my case).. To have them select my wife (arranged marriage), to put up with Godmen, to put up with the family's preconceptions about astrology and homeopathy. You've basically traded your life and values when you choose to bear with it.
Ok well thats different. Don't let them do that. Hopefully your family won't desert you.

[Unlike a Bull]

what if he sees flames at his front door and fears its a hate crime and doesn't come out and the house catches fire and everyone is killed in the ensuing inferno

every great plan has drawbacks
:p

In which case you simply fake your own death (the house fire seems like too good an opportunity for faking your own death to pass up anyway), buy a small plot of land in southern Africa and start a diamond mine.

[Unlike a Bull]

Now exactly why you're suggesting an idea that would ruin his relationship with his parents, I've no idea. Perhaps you'd like to explain? :D

You think this would ruin his relationship with his parents? I genuinely thought it would be a constructive analogy for his feelings towards his parents religion. I figured they would be proud of their son for using such a brave tactic to "break the ice", as it were. I'm afraid there must be some sort of cultural rift between us if your parents would react so negatively towards stepping in a flaming pile of dung.

Seriously, reading the OP, I got the impression that he knew what he was going to do anyway, but was understandably nervous about doing it. I suggested an outlandish idea as an attempt at humor because I find that humor can temporarily alleviate some of the nervousness. I apologize if my post came across sounding ... er, reading ... like an actual suggestion. And if the original author had felt that the "suggestion" I had given was actually a viable one ... then he has more problems than his relationship with his parents.

[Trakar]

Here's a bit of Judeo-Christian dogma to add to your store of Hindu stuff.

"Honour thy father and mother."

They sound like fine people. As do you.
Treat them as such.
Be honest. Be consistent. Be respectful.

Be yourself.

The only way to show them you are a moral person - is to SHOW them.
Be a good person.

Don't expect to solve this problem overnight. Some things take years.
Anger, harsh words, bitterness cannot speed the process up, only slow it down.

To thine own self be true. What follows, follows.

Excellent advice, the only thing I might add, is that the young man evidently does not want convert to their beliefs, so applying a bit of the golden rule might be helpful as weel, he shouldn't try to convert them to his beliefs (ala:"...come out and call them out on their irrational belief system.")

Live and let live

Firmly (not in long drawn out repeated fashion) explain your position, profess your love and respect for them and then live your life including them as much as possible. If you must leave home, then at 22, that is probably long overdue anyway, Independent adults with independent beliefs and the need to express them, should have probably moved out of their parent's home long before 22 anyway.

[epeeist]

Dear Forum members,

I'm at a difficult juncture in life and need some advice.

I'm 22 year old guy from India. I am in a middle class, well-to-do family. I'm employed in a profession I love and a job I'm good at.

I'm an atheist (agnostic if you want to be really specific). My family is not.
...
Over the past few months, they've tried to approached me, and asked me to be more inclusive and spend more time with them.
...
I'll probably have to leave home.
...
What are the best books/other media (introductory, simple english) to introduce a very religious person to the ideas of science and reason?

MOVE OUT.

I picked a few items out of your post. Usual warnings about listening to my or any other person's advice since I don't know you/them/your culture/their religion/etc. I think a lot of the problem has nothing to do with religious differences and more to do with you being a (presumably) unmarried employed 22-year-old adult male living with his parents. You want more freedom, move out.

It can make sense to e.g. live with your parents a few years to help save for a down payment or pay down student debt or something, but not if it damages your relationship with them. At the same time, if you're living with your parents it's quite reasonable for them to expect you to spend more time with them, eat meals (with their dietary restrictions) with them, attend religious services when they go and you're not working unless you explain to them, etc. Note that "explain to them" does not equal "s**t all over their belief systems and give them a book on science and reason".

I would expect e.g. that a non-practising adult Jew living at home with his religiously observant parents would keep kosher in the house (and not discuss eating e.g. BLTs elsewhere), not drive on the sabbath, etc. If he wanted to be free of such parental "restrictions", he should move out. I think the same applies to you.

This aspect has nothing to do with differences in beliefs, it has to do with it sounding like you need to find another place to live and lots of conflicts will disappear or be minimized (at least in terms of how "in their face" and "in your face" each other's behaviour is).

I get that in some cultures children don't leave the home until married (though I thought that was more for women?) but which is going to cause more or less strain on your family relationship, staying or leaving?

As for the religious aspects, you're posting about how objectionable you find your parents' belief system, and at the same time you're planning to prosletyze to them (introduce them to "science and reason"). How terribly arrogant. If their beliefs were leading them to not accept medical care or something like that you might have a point, but belief in astrology or the importance of directions? Hah. I have family members with beliefs in astrology or feng shui or other stuff and don't feel the need to argue with them. I get given the astrology forecast for my birthday from the newspaper? Fine, I read it and smile ("okay, I'll have to avoid taking risks at work" or whatever). I don't give a lecture about how meaningless it is and candles on birthday cake are quasi-religious frippery or whatever. Of course, I have strong religious beliefs myself so you would probably have similar attitudes toward some of my beliefs... :rolleyes:

The moving out etc. issue aside, what about something like "I respect your values but I'm not sure I share all your beliefs, right now I don't feel comfortable attending [whatever religious services are]". That assumes you have objections to religious services that are more meaningful than "I have better things to do with my time" (assuming you continue to live with your parents, though, my attitude is something like "tough").

[ExMinister]

Your situation is such a sad one to me. And you are so kind to be so concerned about their feelings and not wanting to cause them heartbreak.

You mentioned that you might be considering moving out of your parents house, and I really would tend to think that is your best option. Get a little distance between you and your family so you don't have to deal with the daily rituals anymore, and then gradually over time, as you come to visit, you can mention what you've learned about homeopathy or astrology and sort of gently ease them into your new way of thinking. In that way, you might be able to avoid shocking and alienating them completely.

I have found, in my own situation, that it has worked better for me, with family and close friends, to address one idea at a time as they come up, suggesting alternate explanations as possibilities that I tend to lean towards now, while allowing the other person to still feel as though they might be "right." I take a "who knows, but..." approach that allows me to share the facts without preaching or sounding self-righteous.

But that is just me. I tend to not want to hurt people.

On the other hand, I have distanced myself from people who remain believers in things that I absolutely can't stand, even after I've shared the facts with them (believing Sylvia Browne is genuine and considering her a spiritual teacher, for example). In that case, it is just too uncomfortable for me to be around them if they insist on talking about it. I firmly state what I believe and ask that we change the subject. This may be what you will need to do eventually with your family, too, if they don't respect your own feelings and opinions down the road.

Anyway, just my 2 cents, for whatever it's worth. Good luck!

[mithal]

If you must leave home, then at 22, that is probably long overdue anyway, Independent adults with independent beliefs and the need to express them, should have probably moved out of their parent's home long before 22 anyway.

A little context.. things are a bit different in India. Moving out is fairly uncommon, and usually only happens when you have to (like getting a job at a different place, etc). Joint families (grandparents + parents + children) are common.. and socially seen in a positive light.

India is also quite castist. Though there's no discrimination actively, there's a thick undercurrent of passive discrimination.. in terms of who people chose to socialize with (people of same caste/religion). With children, it turns out that being brought up this way leads them to think of this system as normal, and onlt a few who choose to think critically escape the system.

I belong in one such closely knit community. I've made friends outside of this, and this makes things a bit easier. But moving out would lead to disconnection from something I've been attached to all my life. This community is in no way evil.. all of the people usually well-meaning.. but "misguidedly" brought up.

[westprog]

One point that's been mentioned - the idea that someone can demonstrate that, in spite of failing to observe certain rituals, he can still be a "good" person. This might work, but I'm not sure how realistic it is.

If the religious traditions are strong enough, then flouting them will inherently be seen as wrong, regardless of how someone behaves otherwise. It's not always the case that someone can show by his example that what he's doing is right.

In a Western context, if someone wants to demonstrate that he can be a good person and a vegetarian, he'll have a reasonable chance. If he wants to marry his sister, they will never go for it no matter how good a life he leads otherwise.

So this case could be looked at either way. That's why it's not really possible to offer directive advice. The original poster will know, or suspect, whether his parents would look at the abandonment of their ideals as a bit of a disappointment, or a descent into depravity.

[Trakar]

A little context.. things are a bit different in India. Moving out is fairly uncommon, and usually only happens when you have to (like getting a job at a different place, etc). Joint families (grandparents + parents + children) are common.. and socially seen in a positive light.

India is also quite castist. Though there's no discrimination actively, there's a thick undercurrent of passive discrimination.. in terms of who people chose to socialize with (people of same caste/religion). With children, it turns out that being brought up this way leads them to think of this system as normal, and onlt a few who choose to think critically escape the system.

I belong in one such closely knit community. I've made friends outside of this, and this makes things a bit easier. But moving out would lead to disconnection from something I've been attached to all my life. This community is in no way evil.. all of the people usually well-meaning.. but "misguidedly" brought up.


So what am I missing here? You are rejecting the fundemental tenets of the social group to which you were born and raised in, and yet you don't want to move on because you are afraid of losing the very thing that is the basis of the thing you reject?????

That's right you are only 22, never mind.

[Roma]

With maturity comes tolerance. You have a lot of growing to do.

Show your family respect and they will show you respect in return.

[Baby Nemesis]

So what am I missing here? You are rejecting the fundemental tenets of the social group to which you were born and raised in, and yet you don't want to move on because you are afraid of losing the very thing that is the basis of the thing you reject?????

That's right you are only 22, never mind.

It does seem strange to me that some people seem to have a huge difficulty in separating the concepts of emotional ties and beliefs and practices, as if they somehow think that a person couldn't possibly want to reject their family's dedication to astrology, worship of certain archaic gods, reliance on homeopathic medicine etc., without rejecting them as people, as if the very essence of their being is their dedication to astrology etc. Some people on this forum believe things far weirder than the things they profess to be condemning. About the weirdest one I've heard this morning is the idea that because someone doesn't equate the emotional ties they have to individuals with certain things those people happen to do, it must simply be that they're young, and so perhaps don't know their own minds. Strange indeed.

[Trakar]

It does seem strange to me that some people seem to have a huge difficulty in separating the concepts of emotional ties and beliefs and practices, as if they somehow think that a person couldn't possibly want to reject their family's dedication to astrology, worship of certain archaic gods, reliance on homeopathic medicine etc., without rejecting them as people, as if the very essence of their being is their dedication to astrology etc. Some people on this forum believe things far weirder than the things they profess to be condemning. About the weirdest one I've heard this morning is the idea that because someone doesn't equate the emotional ties they have to individuals with certain things those people happen to do, it must simply be that they're young, and so perhaps don't know their own minds. Strange indeed.

Naivette might suggest such, experience indicates an understanding of changing the things one can change, not trying to change the things one cannot, and being in acceptance of those differences.

One cannot change the beliefs and behaviors of the rest of the world with mere youthful exhuberance.

If one's beliefs and opinions are such that you cannot tolerate the beliefs and opinions of others, then the best choice is to remove oneself from the influence and presence of the others. If one, however, values the social connections and benefits of those others more than one values the public rejection of the other's beliefs and public expression of your own beliefs, then sit down, shut up and abide by the other's customs and rituals.

This isn't a dilemma of choices as first presented, rather, it seems a wanting to have the benefits of both worlds without any negative consequences,...IOW, the arrogant ignorance of youth, a common affliction nearly all of us go through, and most of us survive.