Atheists and Funerals?

[Larspeart]

Okay, since most of the people on this board are loud and proud atheists/agnostics, I have a question for you. Well, 2 actually.

1. Do you attend funerals for lost loved ones/friends/co-workers, etc?

2. If so, why?

[arcticpenguin]

1) Yes.

2) To honor the memory of that person and to share comfort with others who knew the deceased.

Disregarding all the supernatural hooha, there's still a lot to be said for social contact and social ritual.

Funerals are for the living, not the dead.

Other relevant threads:

honoring the dead (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=11890&highlight=funeral)


Would you like a funeral? (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=15935&highlight=funeral)

Mass for the dead (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=21772&highlight=funeral)

Skeptic funerals (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=25426&highlight=funeral)

[corplinx]

ill answer this in the religion forum maybe

[bjornart]

Originally posted by arcticpenguin

Funerals are for the living, not the dead.


Spot on.

[Charlie Monoxide]

Articpenguin is correct on this. Funerals allow closure for the living.

Charlie (why are the stiffs late?) Monoxide

[Larspeart]

No problem. I pretty much expected that response, and I have a question to follow-up on that one as well then.

Since funerals are (typically) dripping with religion, ritual, and other things that an atheist would disagree with, if not totally scoff at, why not just 'honor' them in your own private way, through memories (although 'honoring someone through memories' seems dangerously close to prayer, /gasp!)?

I am genuinely curious on this issue, and I am not meaning to stir any pots or rankle any feathers. :)

[arcticpenguin]

Originally posted by Larspeart
No problem. I pretty much expected that response, and I have a question to follow-up on that one as well then.

Since funerals are (typically) dripping with religion, ritual, and other things that an atheist would disagree with, if not totally scoff at, why not just 'honor' them in your own private way, through memories (although 'honoring someone through memories' seems dangerously close to prayer, /gasp!)?

I am genuinely curious on this issue, and I am not meaning to stir any pots or rankle any feathers. :)
I think the key word here was private. I could do without the superstition, but I do want to share time with others.

Where I'm from (small town upper midwest) there is a lot of community support when someone dies. I remember when my parents died (separately). Neighbors bring over food for relatives who have returned to town for the funeral. Lots of well-wishing and small favors. Offers to babysit children during the church service. After the funeral, whoever wants to will go to the cemetary for the burial. I remember the American Legion's 21 gun salute for my father, a veteran. The gunshots had a great deal of emotional impact on me.

After the funeral, Everyone is invited to the funeral dinner, with prodigious midwestern portions.

After spending some time with my siblings & other family and relatives, there was more laughing than crying.

Small towns are the best place to die.

[Upchurch]

Originally posted by Larspeart
Since funerals are (typically) dripping with religion, ritual, and other things that an atheist would disagree with, if not totally scoff at, why not just 'honor' them in your own private way, through memories (although 'honoring someone through memories' seems dangerously close to prayer, /gasp!)?"'Honor' them in your own private way" is completely contradictory to the social aspects of funerals. It is very hard to have a society of one. And grieving in groups has a comforting and healing psychological effect that grieving alone can't provide.

Besides, during a funeral, the needs of the grieving famly comes before the needs of the individual. If the family has elected to have a religous funeral, it would take a pretty crass atheist to assert his own preferences over that of the family's. In which case, such an atheist has more problems than exposure to just a little religous fluff.

[Larspeart]

AP, I agree that the 21 gun salute to a fallen war hero/veteran is very powerful and moving. My uncle was a decorated war hero in WWII, and he received one as well. Now, the history behind that. . . is both religious and superstitious though. The salute is to ward off evil spirits. Before guns were around, people would bang pots and pans, and whoop and yell to the same effect. So again, religion seems to have a purpose, and it seems that you felt that at the funeral. While you may not believe in a higher power, it seems that the OTHER purpose of religion held true; it served to assuage your anguish, bring you closer to family, heal wounds left by the departed, etc.

A common arguement of atheists is that religion only exists to help people feel better or more comfortable with lifes 'tougher questions', such as death, loss, hardship, etc. In that light, it seems to have worked in your case. you felt better afterwards, moved. You had a last chance to honor someone close to you, amongst family and friends. Without a (religious) funeral, a lot of that may not have occured.

Am I way off base here? Let me know.



:)

[Psiload]

Larspeart posted:

...why not just 'honor' them in your own private way, through memories (although 'honoring someone through memories' seems dangerously close to prayer, /gasp!)?

I don't see the connection. How are fond memories of departed friends, and relatives like prayers?

Seems like one more example of "The True Believers(tm)" assuming they have a monopoly on compassion, and sorrow.

[karl]

Originally posted by Larspeart
A common arguement of atheists is that religion only exists to help people feel better or more comfortable with lifes 'tougher questions', such as death, loss, hardship, etc. In that light, it seems to have worked in your case. you felt better afterwards, moved. You had a last chance to honor someone close to you, amongst family and friends. Without a (religious) funeral, a lot of that may not have occured.

Am I way off base here? Let me know.

:)

You are off base in the sense that you think of funerals as religious. This is not necessarily the case. When my grandmother died, the funeral was held in some local chapel by a priest, but I don't recall any mention of God, Jesus or anything specific to a religion during the ceremony. Though I'm not sure if this is the standard deal (because my country is very secularized), or if it was done on request (because my whole family has always been atheist/agnostic).

To answer your initial questions, I attend funerals for the same reason I buy Christmas presents. It's a social tradition.

[Hexxenhammer]

Originally posted by arcticpenguin
Small towns are the best place to die.
I'll agree to that. My experiences are the same. And 21 gun salutes make you proud and want to cry at the same time.

You from Minnesota AP? I notice a lot of the links you post are Star Tribune.

[Psiload]

Originally posted by karl


You are off base in the sense that you think of funerals as religious. This is not necessarily the case. When my grandmother died, the funeral was held in some local chapel by a priest, but I don't recall any mention of God, Jesus or anything specific to a religion during the ceremony. Though I'm not sure if this is the standard deal (because my country is very secularized), or if it was done on request (because my whole family has always been atheist/agnostic).

To answer your initial questions, I attend funerals for the same reason I buy Christmas presents. It's a social tradition. Religious ceremony as social tradition.... now there is a concept that gauls the gizzard of many a faithfull adherent. My Grandmother(may she rest in peace... *gasp!* Was that a prayer?!) had a term she used to refer to those that only used the church for baptisms, weddings, and funerals...

Hatch, match, and dispatch Catholics.

She'd spit the term with such bile, you'd swear she was passing judgement... couldn't have been doing that though... she was a proper Catholic after all.

[Andonyx]

Originally posted by Larspeart
AP, I agree that the 21 gun salute to a fallen war hero/veteran is very powerful and moving. My uncle was a decorated war hero in WWII, and he received one as well. Now, the history behind that. . . is both religious and superstitious though. The salute is to ward off evil spirits. Before guns were around, people would bang pots and pans, and whoop and yell to the same effect. So again, religion seems to have a purpose, and it seems that you felt that at the funeral. While you may not believe in a higher power, it seems that the OTHER purpose of religion held true; it served to assuage your anguish, bring you closer to family, heal wounds left by the departed, etc.



You ARE way off base in that your impression of the origin of the 21 gun salute is simply incorrect.

While the noise making to ward off-spirits has been a part of many religious, and superstitious cultural traditions. The 21 gun salute has nothing to do with that.

Gun salutes were exchanged during the days of Naval Warfare to insure that ships returning to port were in fact under friendly control. When a ship armed with Cannons emptied their guns, it was a sign of piece, since if all guns were emptied, they could not be re-readied to fire in a time frame that would allow them to threaten the much more havily fortified Land based Fortresses.

So, armed ships that were unknown to a particular port but had peaceful intent would fire all of their cannons one time as they approached the port, and if the port gave permission to dock, the Port would fire 3 shots for each of the ships shots.

It's an odd tradition I know, but that is in fact the origin of gun salutes.

I'm not sure what happened in days past, but today the only possible way to get a 21 from the US military is to be the Current US Pres., Former US Pres, Foreign Head of State, or member of Royal Family of friendly Nation. (That's seven guns fired three times.)

Vice Pres gets 18, and so on and so forth all the way down to 5 shots for some ambassadors, and diplomats.

http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/faq/salute.htm

[LFTKBS]

When we buried my grandfather and grandmother within six months of each other, my father and I spoke at both events. We were then followed by the most incompetent minister ever to walk the earth. Say what you will about the views of fiery rhetoriticians like J. Edwards ("Sinners in the Hands of . . ., etc.), but at least they were powerful. This man was awful, serving up some of the worst theology I'd ever heard - and not delivering it well - and all to the detriment of my grandparents' memory and to those gathered. The tendency to make weddings and funerals about God and not the celebrants is, I think, one of the worst aspects of religion in general and Christianity in particular.

How and why he was kept on after the first time, I don't know.

[arcticpenguin]

Originally posted by Larspeart
AP, I agree that the 21 gun salute to a fallen war hero/veteran is very powerful and moving. My uncle was a decorated war hero in WWII, and he received one as well. Now, the history behind that. . . is both religious and superstitious though. The salute is to ward off evil spirits. Before guns were around, people would bang pots and pans, and whoop and yell to the same effect. So again, religion seems to have a purpose, and it seems that you felt that at the funeral. While you may not believe in a higher power, it seems that the OTHER purpose of religion held true; it served to assuage your anguish, bring you closer to family, heal wounds left by the departed, etc.

A common arguement of atheists is that religion only exists to help people feel better or more comfortable with lifes 'tougher questions', such as death, loss, hardship, etc. In that light, it seems to have worked in your case. you felt better afterwards, moved. You had a last chance to honor someone close to you, amongst family and friends. Without a (religious) funeral, a lot of that may not have occured.

Am I way off base here? Let me know.

:)
I think you are at least somewhat off-base.

As for the 21 gun salute, whether or not the 'evil spirits' origin is correct, it is not a part of current belief or practice. It is simply a measure of respect.

For the rest, I guess my point was that the religious service is not all of death ritual (at least in my background), and that most of the other aspects (21 gun salute, funeral dinner, etc) are not primarily religious. Friends who are not members of the same religion might skip the funeral and show up at the dinner, for instance.

BTW, I am originally from Northern Iowa, and lived in the twin cities for a few years. My father died when I was in high school and still Catholic. My mother died later, after I had become an atheist.