Holocaust denial: is it conspiracy?

[barfly]

In many countries its criminal act to deny holocaust.
What is there so sacred? Do I have to take holocaust as a fact, like Christian god was The Creator?
Is there any other conspiracy theories that is forbidden by governments?

[Oliver]

In many countries its criminal act to deny holocaust.
What is there so sacred? Do I have to take holocaust as a fact, like Christian god was The Creator?
Is there any other conspiracy theories that is forbidden by governments?



The holocaust is based on facts.
The Creator is based on scriptual fiction.

Don't mix facts with opinion-based fiction.
Also, any conspiracy theories based on non-Jesus opinions won't get you elected. Think about it before you reply.

[NWO Sentryman]

Em there ia a good website called Nizkor, which has it from the horses mouth (http://www.nizkor.org/) as to the reason for holocaust denial,

[Chaos]

In many countries its criminal act to deny holocaust.
What is there so sacred? Do I have to take holocaust as a fact, like Christian god was The Creator?
Is there any other conspiracy theories that is forbidden by governments?

The point of the whole thing is, it is forbidden to publicly make claims that

1) have been proven over and over and *********** over again to be false, beyond the possibility of doubt by anyone with two brain cells to rub together
AND
2) falsely accuse MILLIONS of people of complicity in the greatest scam in history and at the same time turn the worst monsters of the 20th century into innocent victims.

[barfly]

Which facts, Oliver?
Only number of poor people who has died.
But all facts that crematories can't "deal" with such numbers of slaughtered humans.

For example:
Biggest death camp had 8 crematories. Most advanced crematory today can "handle" 25 dead bodies in 24 hours.

8 x 25 x 365 x (max 3 years) = 219'000
and we're told that 1,6 million of humans are burnt there.
I have some doubts.

(I will not erase my answer, but I will say that the fact of holocaust is not questioned. Question is: why can't I deny holocaust? As I understand, everything can be questioned)

[Oliver]

The point of the whole thing is, it is forbidden to publicly make claims that

1) have been proven over and over and *********** over again to be false, beyond the possibility of doubt by anyone with two brain cells to rub together
AND
2) falsely accuse MILLIONS of people of complicity in the greatest scam in history and at the same time turn the worst monsters of the 20th century into innocent victims.



Translation: "Freedom of speech sucks ass" [/Cartman]

[barfly]

1) have been proven over and over and *********** over again to be false, beyond the possibility of doubt by anyone with two brain cells to rub together


erm...
There have been christian god deniers for 2000 years and do we send them to prisons in 21-st century?

(English isn't my first nor my second language)

[barfly]

Holocaust denial is explicitly or implicitly illegal in 13 countries: Austria, Belgium, Czech Republic, France, Germany, Israel, Liechtenstein, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Poland, Portugal, Romania, and Switzerland. Slovakia made Holocaust denial a crime in late 2001 but repealed the legislation in May 2005. Spain decriminalized Holocaust denial in October 2007. Italy rejected a draft Holocaust denial law proposing a prison sentence of up to four years in 2007, the Netherlands rejected a draft law proposing a maximum sentence of one year in 2006 and before this the United Kingdom twice rejected a Holocaust denial law. Denmark and Sweden also have rejected Holocaust denial legislation. (from wikipedia: holocaust denial)

[headscratcher4]

Which facts, Oliver?
Only number of poor people who has died.
But all facts that crematories can't "deal" with such numbers of slaughtered humans.

For example:
Biggest death camp had 8 crematories. Most advanced crematory today can "handle" 25 dead bodies in 24 hours.

8 x 25 x 365 x (max 3 years) = 219'000
and we're told that 1,6 million of humans are burnt there.
I have some doubts.

Doubts you may have, but that just shows a distinct lack of curiosity as to facts. For example, your little straw man above. It is well known, documented and witnessed that huge numbers of bodies were first burried in mass pits, later disintered and burnt in open fire pits. In short no one reciting the facts of the holocaust is claiming that the crematoria at, for example, Auchwitz were responsible for the elimination of the dead bodies -- they did have a part in the exersize, but as noted other methods were also involved.

But once again, in the face of what will appear to be your "reasonable" denile -- your argument is going to eventually become this: the burden of evidence (witnesses, documents, photos, etc) is simply too great, it must be evidence of deciet, whereas the absense of evidence is actually evidence that the holocaust didn't happen. The convoluted nature of such thinking is, essentially, magical.

On a personal note, I happen to disagree with laws that limit speech and make holocaust denile illegal. Given the emence ammount of proof of the Nazi extermination program -- one, broader than simply Jews but also geared toward the enslavement and elimination of Slavs, Gypsies and other "inferior" "races" -- there is no real need. Holocaust denires -- like creationists -- are ultimately left to mine the gaps as opposed to any sort of big-picture theory of what happened or any truly compelling re-interpretation of facts.

On the other hand, in countries that were directly affected by Nazi policies and Nazi barbarity, it is understandable if not excusable. The fact remains that holocaust denile is first and formost not a historical method of factual interpretation -- i.e. it doesn't start from the documents, the testimony, the pictures, etc. and work forward into a coherent interpration of the facts that eliminates mass murder as the logical conclusion -- instead it starts with: the Jews are lying. The Jews have manipulated the Facts. Governments are helping the Jews to manipulate, distort or "create" the facts. Ergo: the holocaust as a fact is a creation of the Jews.

As I said, like creationism, it starts with a premis that no set of facts seems to be able to shake. Indeed, the only way a denirer can conclude that the holocaust didn't happen is to deny (not re-interpret) most facts. Writen orders, testimony, train logs, engineering schmatics, camps on the ground, etc. all must be dismissed, minimized or ignored in order to jimmy history to reach the desired conclusion.

[Perspective]

For example:
Biggest death camp had 8 crematories. Most advanced crematory today can "handle" 25 dead bodies in 24 hours.

Well, as soon as the crematories couldn't handle more bodies, they would dig large pits outside the campbuildings, and just throw the bodies into those, pour gasoline over them, and burn them there. They had various ways of getting rid of bodies.
I've been to many of the camps in the last 10 years, and it's almost the same everywhere.

[Dave Rogers]

In many countries its criminal act to deny holocaust.
What is there so sacred?

As with any other law, the legislators in the countries in question have ruled that the cost to society of permitting a specific act to be committed is greater than the cost to society of forbidding that act. In the specific case of holocaust denial, the aim is presumably to deny a specific platform to those who seek to rehabilitate the public image of National Socialism. The latter cost, in this case, is a clear infringement of the right to free speech. The perceived former cost may be inferred from the history of Germany, 1933-1945. While many here disagree with the decision, it's at worst understandable in context.

Do I have to take holocaust as a fact, like Christian god was The Creator?

No to both, but far more so to the second. Just evaluate the evidence, and the conclusion is inevitable in the first case.

Is there any other conspiracy theories that is forbidden by governments?

I see that you are disingenuously asking one question in the title, then assuming an answer to that question in order to pose a different one in the text. You're then going on to present a completely specious argument against the reality of the Holocaust (why should the capability of a modern crematorium, designed to give a dignified funeral to individuals, bear any relation to that of an industrialised mass-murder operation?). Therefore, it appears that your intention in this thread is to deny the Holocaust under the guise of discussing the status of Holocaust denial.

Starting off a discussion of Holocaust denial with such brazen intellectual dishonesty, though almost universally practised by Holocaust deniers, is unlikely to improve their public image.

I'd also just like to point out, once again, that there seem to be only two camps here: those who recognise that the Holocaust happened more or less as determined by the overwhelming majority of reputable historians, and those who claim that fewer, or perhaps no, victims were actually killed. If there were a legitimate debate with real uncertainty, one would expect a third position, that the number of Holocaust victims has been significantly underestimated. The absence of this group is a strong indicator that in fact there is no real controversy, simply a concerted effort by right-wing political extremists to lie about the severity of the Holocaust in order to clean up their image.

Dave

[Edges]

For example:
Biggest death camp had 8 crematories. Most advanced crematory today can "handle" 25 dead bodies in 24 hours.

Bolding mine.

But why do you think that is? Consider the difference in purpose behind the death camp crematoriums and a normal crematorium. The Nazis were not concerned with keeping the ashes of their victims separated, whereas normal crematoriums are usually providing a service for bereaved family members who would like to scatter their loved ones ashes somewhere. With that in mind, the death camps crematoriums could handle a much greater volume of bodies. And, as others have pointed out, when they couldn't, mass graves were utilized.

[geni]

Which facts, Oliver?
Only number of poor people who has died.
But all facts that crematories can't "deal" with such numbers of slaughtered humans.

For example:
Biggest death camp had 8 crematories. Most advanced crematory today can "handle" 25 dead bodies in 24 hours.

Modern crematoria are not designed to deal with large numbers at high speed but have other objective. A more legitimate comparision would be the large scale descrution of animal remains. UK managed to dispose of 10 million in a few months in 2001.


8 x 25 x 365 x (max 3 years) = 219'000
and we're told that 1,6 million of humans are burnt there.
I have some doubts.


Meaningless since you are talking about completely different designs.



(I will not erase my answer, but I will say that the fact of holocaust is not questioned. Question is: why can't I deny holocaust? As I understand, everything can be questioned)

What country are you in?

[~enigma~]

In many countries its criminal act to deny holocaust.As it should be but the penalty should be much much more severe2. Holocaust denial isn't a conspiracy theory but it is just stupidity and I would say a fear of something (in this case jews) that is unknown and in alot of respects it is one based on jealousy. Those who think it is a valid thought to "revise" the number of dead to a lower value are just as much scum as those who deny the holocaust outright.

[headscratcher4]

Meaningless since you are talking about completely different designs.






And, as I tried to point out, it is meaningless to try to quantify the scope of the holocaust using assumed capacities of industrial crematoria at some death camps. Crematoria were not the only...or possibly the broadest...method of disposing of bodies....open pit burning was responsible for the disposal of many....for example.

In short, he has posed a meaningless question that fails on so many levels...from factual to logical...and thinks that he's somehow mastered history. Sad really.

[timhau]

[Holocaust denial mode]
They dug pits for the bodies? Pits for bodies are called graves. You're asking us to believe that in the middle of a war, the Germans wasted thousands of years worth of manpower to dig six million graves?
[/Holocaust denial mode]

Hey, it's not any sillier than the original version...

[barfly]

vho.org/GB/Books/hoh/index.html#Contents

It's the "denials" side of the history.
I don't say it is the true, but always examine essays of opponents.

My concern still is: why denial of holocaust is criminal act in more than 10 countries in Europe?

[Dave Rogers]

My concern still is: why denial of holocaust is criminal act in more than 10 countries in Europe?

Because it is seen as an attempt to make a far-right wing, racist agenda appear palatable, and in those countries it is seen as less damaging to democracy simply to ban it. And again, this isn't the question you asked in the thread title.

Dave

[timhau]

My concern still is: why denial of holocaust is criminal act in more than 10 countries in Europe?

Does the fact that some countries have criminalized Holocaust denial have any bearing on whether or not the Holocaust is real?

[barfly]

Does the fact that some countries have criminalized Holocaust denial have any bearing on whether or not the Holocaust is real?

No.

[~enigma~]

No.
Then is your problem jealousy?

[Skeptic]

In many countries its criminal act to deny holocaust.
What is there so sacred? Do I have to take holocaust as a fact?

No.

You can remain an ignorant idiot.

Hey, it's a free country.

[dudalb]

Of course you can question the Holocaust.
You can also question whether the Earth is Round, whether the Earth revolve around the Sun, and whether man actually went to the moon or not. You will look like complete wackjob and idiot if you do, but you can question them.
BTW, I fell that although I despise nothing more then a Holocaust denier, to legally prosecute them is wrong. It allows them to play the "Matyr for Free Speech" card, and I don't want to give them that advantage.

[Chaos]

erm...
There have been christian god deniers for 2000 years and do we send them to prisons in 21-st century?

This must be the most pointless and nonsensical reply I´ve had here, which is quite an achievement in this forum.

(English isn't my first nor my second language)

So is there any language in which you can make a coherent argument? Certainly someone will be found who can translate for you.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

In many countries its criminal act to deny holocaust.
What is there so sacred? Do I have to take holocaust as a fact, like Christian god was The Creator?
Is there any other conspiracy theories that is forbidden by governments?

You can't do anything in life without there being consequences.

[geni]

vho.org/GB/Books/hoh/index.html#Contents

It's the "denials" side of the history.
I don't say it is the true, but always examine essays of opponents.

My concern still is: why denial of holocaust is criminal act in more than 10 countries in Europe?

You lie and you know you lie. The alturnative would require you to be too stupid to operate a computer. Your post editing makes it clear enough what you are trying to do. The law is not your real concern otherwise you would not have made the arguments you did (and don't claim to have just been bringing them up your post pre-editing shows otherwise). You want to pretent the holocaust did not happen. Why?

[Gaspode]

Discussion on free speech split to new thread (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=148276).

[Oliver]

Which facts, Oliver?
Only number of poor people who has died.
But all facts that crematories can't "deal" with such numbers of slaughtered humans.

For example:
Biggest death camp had 8 crematories. Most advanced crematory today can "handle" 25 dead bodies in 24 hours.

8 x 25 x 365 x (max 3 years) = 219'000
and we're told that 1,6 million of humans are burnt there.
I have some doubts.

(I will not erase my answer, but I will say that the fact of holocaust is not questioned. Question is: why can't I deny holocaust? As I understand, everything can be questioned)


Well, the crematories itself are a fact you obviously acknowledge. Then there are videos and photos of piles of dead bodies being shot without being cremated, there are thousands of eyewitness reports from victims and perpetrators, there were piles of clothes, toothgold, human hair etc.

Personally the most compelling evidence is my Grandmother telling me what happened to the Jewish Population in White Russia when the Nazis came in, which was: many of them being killed on the spot. And to me it isn't imortant at all if the victims were killed by gas or not. It's no argument to start with in light of the evidence, including detailed documents the Nazis wrote to document the progress, if they didn't "disappear" instantly without anyone taking written notice - a fact that Holocaust denier often miss since they believe it all happened in concentration camps only.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aktion_Reinhard

[Oliver]

ETA: [concerning my [German] Grandmothers eyewitness account]

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1941_Odessa_massacre)1941 Odessa massacre (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1941_Odessa_massacre)
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Odessa massacre was the extermination of Jews (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jew) in Odessa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odessa) and surrounding towns in Transnistria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transnistria) during the autumn of 1941 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1941) and the winter of 1942 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1942) in a series of massacres and killings during the Holocaust (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust) by Romanian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romania) forces, under German (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany) control, encouragement and instruction. Depending on the definition, it can either refer to the events of October 22 - October 24 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/October_24), 1941 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1941) in which between 25,000 and 34,000 Jews (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jew) were shot or burned alive, or to the murder of well over 100,000 Ukrainian Jews (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jew) in the town and the areas between Dniestr (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dniestr) and Bug (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bug_river) rivers, over the course of the Romanian and German occupation.

[Oliver]

Are there any figures about how many Jews died within Konzentrationslager and how many were killed elsewhere during the Holocaust?

[barfly]

Are there any figures about how many Jews died within Konzentrationslager and how many were killed elsewhere during the Holocaust?

That is my question as well.
Before IIWW there were appr 8-10 million Jews in Europe and Russia.
Jews themselves estimated after IIWW that there were appr 6 millions Jews in Russia itself.
Plus these who escaped to Palestina, US, North-Africa. And those who survived in Europe plus Allies comment that they rescued appr 600'000 Jews from death camps.
So: how many Jews died then?

Some of countries were declared as Judenfrei (No Jews) by Germans, but as far as I know, Jews were there then and their children and grandchildren are living there today.
Including my homeland (declared as Judenfrei during IIWW).

Edit: And do You know that Jews declared that they lost 6 million Jews during IWW as well?

[Chaos]

That is my question as well.
Before IIWW there were appr 8-10 million Jews in Europe and Russia.
Jews themselves estimated after IIWW that there were appr 6 millions Jews in Russia itself.
Plus these who escaped to Palestina, US, North-Africa. And those who survived in Europe plus Allies comment that they rescued appr 600'000 Jews from death camps.
So: how many Jews died then?

So you´re playing the old "there are some minor discrepancies, therefore the Holocaust never happened" BS. Can it, we´re not going to fall for that.

Some of countries were declared as Judenfrei (No Jews) by Germans, but as far as I know, Jews were there then and their children and grandchildren are living there today.
Including my homeland (declared as Judenfrei during IIWW).

So? The Nazis did their utmost to make it so. No amount of obfuscation on your part can change that.

Edit: And do You know that Jews declared that they lost 6 million Jews during IWW as well?

Evidence? When and where did "Jews" declare that? Who exactly declared it? Bring it on!

[geni]

That is my question as well.
Before IIWW there were appr 8-10 million Jews in Europe and Russia.
Jews themselves estimated after IIWW that there were appr 6 millions Jews in Russia itself.

Um no. Even the prewar russian jewish population was most likely under a million.



Plus these who escaped to Palestina, US, North-Africa. And those who survived in Europe plus Allies comment that they rescued appr 600'000 Jews from death camps.
So: how many Jews died then?

Somewhere around 5.1 million.

Eichmann who was in a fairly good position to know estimated about 6 million.


Edit: And do You know that Jews declared that they lost 6 million Jews during IWW as well?

What a lovely big lie you have there. In the real world no such claim was made.

[NWO Sentryman]

mihgt i also suggest that he is in denial simply to make Nazism a viable political ideology once again.

Listen, you are finished. You have ZERO Peer-reviewed Evidence for your cases on September 11 and the Holocaust. Before you say thermite paper, that is a joke. Thermite C A N N O T (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYOHlJKcXrg) defy gravity.

[Oliver]

That is my question as well.
Before IIWW there were appr 8-10 million Jews in Europe and Russia.
Jews themselves estimated after IIWW that there were appr 6 millions Jews in Russia itself.
Plus these who escaped to Palestina, US, North-Africa. And those who survived in Europe plus Allies comment that they rescued appr 600'000 Jews from death camps.
So: how many Jews died then?

Some of countries were declared as Judenfrei (No Jews) by Germans, but as far as I know, Jews were there then and their children and grandchildren are living there today.
Including my homeland (declared as Judenfrei during IIWW).

Edit: And do You know that Jews declared that they lost 6 million Jews during IWW as well?


Well, personally and due to the terrible stories I heard from my Grandparents, I never cared if there were 6 Million or 500,000 Jews being murdered in the Holocaust to know that the Holocaust happend. Who seriously cares if it was 5 or 6 Million to prove that the Holocaust was real or not?

In other words, let's assume that "only" 1 million Jews died during the Nazi-Period. How in the world would that be an argument that the Holocaust didn't happen? And what would it proof if someone lied to us about the actual numbers?

I asked the question about "Konzentrationslager-victims and Jewish victims being killed on the spot" in my previous Post because I suspect that more Jews have been killed on the spot without deportation into Konzentrationslager. Thus the Holocaust-Deniers babbling about the Konzentrationslager itself would be pretty much irrelevant.

[Nick Terry]

I asked the question about "Konzentrationslager-victims and Jewish victims being killed on the spot" in my previous Post because I suspect that more Jews have been killed on the spot without deportation into Konzentrationslager. Thus the Holocaust-Deniers babbling about the Konzentrationslager itself would be pretty much irrelevant.

More than 2 million were shot, about 700,00 died in ghettos and labour camps, and about 2.6 million were killed in the extermination camps. So your suspicion is basically accurate; "the gas chambers", which are all that deniers ever care about, were not even responsible for 50% of the victims, and my estimate of 5.3 million is on the low side; any increase would mean more non-gassing deaths.

[Thunder]

"6 million Jews could not have been killed in gas chambers" is a wonderful strawman that Holocaust-deniers use.

No one claims 6 million Jews were killed in gas chambers only.

[MG1962]

Um no. Even the prewar russian jewish population was most likely under a million.

I think it may have been well below that actually. The Jews were restricted in Tsarist Russia to an area near Kiev known as the Pace. Following the upheavels of the 1890's in the area. The government began systematic removal of the Jews from the area.

After Stalin took control I am not so sure of the situation. Stalin hated everyone, so while the Jews would not have been singled out, they certainly would not have been left alone either

[Skeptic]

I highly recommend Skeptic magazine's issue about holocaust denial.

The estimates of the number of Jewish victims is somewhere between 5.1 million on the low side, to 6.7 million on the high side, differences depending not only on the sources available to different researchers but the definition of "holocaust victim". On the whole, the old number - about 6 million -- stands up well and is more or less the best figure available.

[Thunder]

I highly recommend Skeptic magazine's issue about holocaust denial.

The estimates of the number of Jewish victims is somewhere between 5.1 million on the low side, to 6.7 million on the high side, differences depending not only on the sources available to different researchers but the definition of "holocaust victim". On the whole, the old number - about 6 million -- stands up well and is more or less the best figure available.

keep in mind "6 million" is not an exact figure. it is an accepted sort of round number.

5.1....6....6.5.....its still horrible and massive.

[Thunder]

Edit: And do You know that Jews declared that they lost 6 million Jews during IWW as well?

no....ONE article in the NY Times said that up to 6 million Jews were at RISK.

not killed.

if you are gonna lie...at least do your homework.

[Thunder]

Plus these who escaped to Palestina, US, North-Africa. And those who survived in Europe plus Allies comment that they rescued appr 600'000 Jews from death camps.

before ww2 there were about 3.3 million Jews in Poland. after ww2, only 300,000 remained. those 300,000 came to Israel in 1952.

so tell me, where are the missing 3 million Polish Jews?

[Nick Terry]

no....ONE article in the NY Times said that up to 6 million Jews were at RISK.

not killed.

if you are gonna lie...at least do your homework.

Some sharp comments on this were made elsewhere (http://rodohforum.yuku.com/topic/7183)

Deniers chronically have math difficulties as they have evolved toward a mathematical system in which all values equal six million. Add up the numbers in this famous post by a famous denier. See if the numbers that are provided in the post will add up to the promised six million. If you find that they do not it is YOUR error for not realizing that all numbers, whether added, subtracted, multiplied or divided = six million. I. E.: 6,000,000 +6,000,000 = 6,000,000

[MG1962]

I highly recommend Skeptic magazine's issue about holocaust denial.

The estimates of the number of Jewish victims is somewhere between 5.1 million on the low side, to 6.7 million on the high side, differences depending not only on the sources available to different researchers but the definition of "holocaust victim". On the whole, the old number - about 6 million -- stands up well and is more or less the best figure available.

And historians go to great pain to point that out. It is not like they plucked a number and said that will do. Those same historians also admit they will never produce a definitive number of victims for this tragedy.

And as Parky points out 4 million 5 million 6 million - no matter what number you choose. It is a horrible horrible thing to contemplate

[barfly]

Evidence? When and where did "Jews" declare that? Who exactly declared it? Bring it on!

Source: "The American Hebrew" Magazine
Date: Oct 31, 1919
Article: "The Crucifiction of Jews Must Stop!" by Martin H. Glynn
Quote:
"... a bigoted lust for Jewish blood..."
"... six million human beings are being whirled toward the grave..."
"... In this threatened holocaust of human life..."

[barfly]

Ok, guys.
As I see we went into another territory here, holocaust denial.
My first question was: why is it criminal act to deny holocaust?
Even if I don't believe that 6 million of Jews were killed (but I'm sure that very large number of Jews were killed) during IIWW, but why I have to go to jail believeing so?

(I edit because my English is so bad I have to edit :))

[Chaos]

Source: "The American Hebrew" Magazine
Date: Oct 31, 1919
Article: "The Crucifiction of Jews Must Stop!" by Martin H. Glynn
Quote:
"... a bigoted lust for Jewish blood..."
"... six million human beings are being whirled toward the grave..."
"... In this threatened holocaust of human life..."

So you have three phrases taken out of context, which even then do not claim anyone was actually killed? Try again.

[barfly]

And again:
please read denials side vho.org/GB/Books/hoh/index.html#Contents
Author: Jürgen Graf
from wikipedia (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jürgen_Graf)
Jürgen Graf (born August 15, 1951, Basel) is a Swiss Holocaust Denier and researcher. He studied philology at the University of Basel studying French, English, and Scandinavian languages and spent several years working as a school teacher at a prestigious private school. He is fluent in 15 languages. He became acquainted with the Holocaust debate in 1991 and published several books on the subject in the 1990s, three co-authored with his colleague Carlo Mattogno.

Graf and his publisher, Gerhard Förster, were prosecuted by a Swiss court for 'Holocaust denial' in July 1998 and was sentenced to a fine and 15 months imprisonment. He fled the country, initially seeking political asylum in Iran, and finally moved to Russia in August 2000. He married a Belarusian Historian in 2001 and lives in Moscow, working as a translator.

[geni]

Source: "The American Hebrew" Magazine
Date: Oct 31, 1919
Article: "The Crucifiction of Jews Must Stop!" by Martin H. Glynn
Quote:
"... a bigoted lust for Jewish blood..."
"... six million human beings are being whirled toward the grave..."
"... In this threatened holocaust of human life..."

Hey why not link to the pice in full?
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.py?orgs/american/american.hebrew/glynn.1919

It uses some fairly emotive language but isn't far wrong.

Of course I understand you must pretend to know nothing of history but surely even you know that World War I had only just ended. Europe was in a complete mess. Large areas on the brink of starvation. Spanish flu ongoing. Russian civil war (where at least some groups where targeting jews in significant numbers) was ongoing. Polish–Soviet War was ongoing putting yet more lives at risk.

And to be fair the article doesn't really pretend to be anything other than a compaining document.

[geni]

Ok, guys.
As I see we went into another territory here, holocaust denial.
My first question was: why is it criminal act to deny holocaust?

Because rather a lot of countries decided that the Nazis were a BAD THING. Aparently being the bad guys in the the bloodiest war in human history will do that. As a result it was decided that it was worth takeing whatever steps could be taken to make sure that the nazis were never able to reappear as a political force. Outlawing certian lies was felt to be a reasonable step to take.


Even if I don't believe that 6 million of Jews were killed (but I'm sure that very large number of Jews were killed) during IIWW, but why I have to go to jail believeing so?


Because a democraticaly elected goverment has decided that some lies are not conductive to the continueing existance of a liberal peaceful democracy.

[barfly]

Because rather a lot of countries decided that the Nazis were a BAD THING. Aparently being the bad guys in the the bloodiest war in human history will do that. As a result it was decided that it was worth takeing whatever steps could be taken to make sure that the nazis were never able to reappear as a political force. Outlawing certian lies was felt to be a reasonable step to take.



Because a democraticaly elected goverment has decided that some lies are not conductive to the continueing existance of a liberal peaceful democracy.


This was a good answer.
I will not comment this thread anymore.

[MG1962]

Because rather a lot of countries decided that the Nazis were a BAD THING. Aparently being the bad guys in the the bloodiest war in human history will do that. As a result it was decided that it was worth takeing whatever steps could be taken to make sure that the nazis were never able to reappear as a political force. Outlawing certian lies was felt to be a reasonable step to take.

I think this is an important point. The country with the stiffest laws and greatest fear of the rebirth of Nazi doctrine is the country that allowed it to happen in the first place

The German people have always put their hand up and accepted what happened. They have never made excuses, never tried to lessen the horror that was visited on the world.

It is clear the German people are deeply troubled and emotionally hurt by what occured. They are equally determined never to let such events unfold again on their watch.

I greatly respect the German people for this position. It is easy to crow about free speech ect. But how many of us come from a culture that has this dark shadow of history hanging over them, and a fear of it ever happening again

[skipster]

Um no. Even the prewar russian jewish population was most likely under a million.

Sorry for dragging this subject back up, but the Russian History major in me wants to say that the pre-WWII Jewish population of Russia was around 3 million or so. You need to be at that number to explain the accepted number of 2.5 million Russian Jews killed during the Nazi occupation.

[geni]

Sorry for dragging this subject back up, but the Russian History major in me wants to say that the pre-WWII Jewish population of Russia was around 3 million or so. You need to be at that number to explain the accepted number of 2.5 million Russian Jews killed during the Nazi occupation.

Which estimate has 2.5 million russian jews killed?

Since about 3,000,000 were killed in poland and 400K were killed in Hungary 2.5 million russian jews dead isn't consistent with most accepted figuress.

Wikipedia goes for a much lower total:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust#By_country

[Nick Terry]

Which estimate has 2.5 million russian jews killed?

Since about 3,000,000 were killed in poland and 400K were killed in Hungary 2.5 million russian jews dead isn't consistent with most accepted figuress.

Wikipedia goes for a much lower total:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust#By_country

the 2.5 million figure applies to the Soviet borders after 1941. This includes about 1.2 million Polish Jews in annexed eastern Poland. The 3 million Polish Jews figure applies to the prewar borders.

[I Ratant]

I believe the criminality attached to Holocaust denial comes about because those countries with those laws experienced the fact of the Holocaust, and have no desire to see it repeated.
Something as simple as the insignia of the Finnish Air Force, a white rectangular swastika on a light blue background,(not the "twisted cross" of the Nazis) the coat of arms of the people that donated the first aircraft to Finland in the 1920s was removed from the Finnish airplanes following the end of the war, as they wish to have no possible connection with the horrors Naziism inflicted on all of Europe which were all too evident at that time.
"Never Again" has to be the watchword when the sewers of the earth vomit forth garbage in the form of the deniers.

[skipster]

A quick clarification, I should have said Soviet Union, not Russia. Are we all guilty of not making that distinction?

As Nick Terry noted, there were a lot of people moving around at the time and no one was actually counting who died where. All these numbers are estimates. I'm just going on memory of what I researched/discussed in college.

The wiki article actually shows a total estimate of 1.25 million Jewish dead in the various European Soviets (Byelorussia, Ukraine, Russia). The Baltic states were independent pre-WWII, but were annexed by the Soviet Union shortly after the invasion of Poland by Nazi Germany, so that number could be added to the total. It has no mention of Jewish dead in the Caucasus region of the Soviet Union, which was not a big number but was more than zero.

[MG1962]

.
"Never Again" has to be the watchword when the sewers of the earth vomit forth garbage in the form of the deniers.

In a cemetary where I grew up is a monument made of polished granite on it are the words

IN MEMORY OF THE 6 MIILION JEWS KILLED BY THE NAZIS DURING THE WAR 1939 - 1945

MAY THE WORLD NEVER AGAIN WITNESS SUCH INHUMANITY OF MAN AGAINST MAN

[Liszt]

In a cemetary where I grew up is a monument made of polished granite on it are the words

IN MEMORY OF THE 6 MIILION JEWS KILLED BY THE NAZIS DURING THE WAR 1939 - 1945

MAY THE WORLD NEVER AGAIN WITNESS SUCH INHUMANITY OF MAN AGAINST MAN

But it did happen again...Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot etc.

I live in Berlin, and around half the cemetaries are Jewish. It is depressing, but they are kept with care (not open to the public though - I looked over a wall the other day at one)

And holocaust denial shouldn't be a crime. Expect more law changes as the EU becomes more powerful (attempts are being made to streamline eruopean law at the moment)

[MG1962]

But it did happen again...Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot etc.

But whats the other option. Ring our hands and nash our teeth and do nothing. For me the Holocaust is not just about the Jews. It is about all people who have been killed in similar manners through history.

Remembering the Holocaust is to remember all those victims.

I wont comment on European laws about the Holocaust. As a German thats your job. Your people will decide what is best for your society. At some point you might say the pain and the threat has eased and emotionally you can move on, confident you wont get fooled again.

But that day will be of your chooseing, no one elses

[Oliver]

I wont comment on European laws about the Holocaust. As a German thats your job. Your people will decide what is best for your society. At some point you might say the pain and the threat has eased and emotionally you can move on, confident you wont get fooled again.

But that day will be of your chooseing, no one elses


Actually, I might add, the question whether there is peace in Israel or not plays a major role concerning the "day of choice".

[Galileo]

In many countries its criminal act to deny holocaust.
What is there so sacred? Do I have to take holocaust as a fact, like Christian god was The Creator?
Is there any other conspiracy theories that is forbidden by governments?

denying government mass murder is a disgrace, whether you deny the holocaust, or deny 9/11 Truth.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

denying government mass murder is a disgrace, whether you deny the holocaust, or deny 9/11 Truth.

Which is why you're going to kill us all after your revolution. :p

[Liszt]

But whats the other option. Ring our hands and nash our teeth and do nothing. For me the Holocaust is not just about the Jews. It is about all people who have been killed in similar manners through history.

Remembering the Holocaust is to remember all those victims.

I wont comment on European laws about the Holocaust. As a German thats your job. Your people will decide what is best for your society. At some point you might say the pain and the threat has eased and emotionally you can move on, confident you wont get fooled again.

But that day will be of your chooseing, no one elses

Actually, I'm an English expat. Most of my German friends oppose the law with the phrase "isn't that what the Nazis did?" (they don't say it quite as glibly as that though, obviously).

[NWO Sentryman]

Usually, Holocaust deniers believe that the Jews run the world and say that it was a "hoax". Thus, they create the grand conspiracy that everything, from corpses to gas chambers, from documents to testimony, was faked.

So, yes, holocaust denial is generally conspiracy theory.

Whereas the holocaust was a conspiracy at the highest level of government to wipe out the Jewish population in europe

[Almo]

In many countries its criminal act to deny holocaust.
What is there so sacred? Do I have to take holocaust as a fact, like Christian god was The Creator?
Is there any other conspiracy theories that is forbidden by governments?

Read Denying the Holocaust: The Growing Assault on Truth and Memory by Deborah Lipstadt.

http://www.amazon.com/Denying-Holocaust-Deborah-E-Lipstadt/dp/0029192358

[timhau]

Read Denying the Holocaust: The Growing Assault on Truth and Memory by Deborah Lipstadt.

http://www.amazon.com/Denying-Holocaust-Deborah-E-Lipstadt/dp/0029192358

... and then sue her and her publisher! Don't worry about the legal costs, you can save a lot by acting as your own lawyer.