a sports thing

[King of the Americas]

the BCS Bowl System

Message:

Please send a like e-mail to ESPN, using the address below

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To whom it may concern:

I am a Sports Fan, and an avid viewer of ESPN. I find your coverage of Sports Events to be top rate and without comparison.

For this reason I must submit this request:

"Will you please NOT cover any of the BCS Bowls, or the any of the results therein?"

I make this request because I find that the BSC Bowl Ratings System to be FLAWED, in that it ONLY offers up a paper champion who may not neccessarily be the BEST team. This system forces Players to compete for a practically MEANINGLESS title, and is thus unfair to Players & Fans alike.

Thank you for your time and consideration, but I must say I have no plans to watch ANY of the BCS Bowls or ANY of the coverage therein. If ESPN finds this opinion invalid, and airs coverage of these events, I plan to turn the channel.

Sincerely,

Albert J. Knabe
Sports Fan




http://msn.espn.go.com/sitetools/s/contact/espntv.html

-- Knabe of ESPN

[Tricky]

Apologies for the cross-post from the Sports forum (where this topic should have been.)
Originally posted by Tricky
I'm gonna paint a target on my chest and say that the BCS worked just fine. The whole point of the complicated BCS system is to remove some of the human tendencies from the polls. If USC's loss had been the last game of the season and Oklahoma's had happened early, who among you would not be clamoring to have USC bumped down? And consider that USC lost to a 7-6 team (California) while Oklahoma lost in the conference championship game to a team which had beaten California 42-28

The BCS was created to remove some of the "human factor" from the selection by using other factors as well, but the first time the BCS conflicts with what we emotional humans chose, we are clamoring to have it scrapped.

Obviously, a playoff is the best way to go, but do any of you believe that the team that came out on top would necessarily be the best team in the country? Face it, because of "on any given day", no poll, selection system or playoff is going to be perfect. I think the BCS does a better job than most of selecting #1 vs #2. Certainly a lot better than polls which count late losses more than early losses.

[King of the Americas]

..for my not posting this in the proper area.

I figured it was a current event...

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That said I DISAGREE that the BSC delivers the best team.

I think the point is to find out who is the best at the END of the season, thus rewarding the progression of a team as it gets better from the mistakes it made in a previous game...

Your postion is about the validity of a loss, well I must ask that you keep in mind the 'context' of those loses.

OU loses BIG at the 'end' of the year, and they are still #1???

How is that the "best" team, or even one of the best teams?

The BSC delivers to us the best overall teams, but not a specific or certain champion.

OU played better than most of the country, but that doesn't mean their are the best NOW.

I am not saying the BSC isn't useful. It SHOULD be used to create a 16 team playoff schedule, not to extend the season any more than a month.

Let the true end of the season BEST prove themselves by beating everyone they face.

[Tricky]

Well if the #1 ranking is only for the team that is the "best NOW", then there is no real point in having a champion. Teams may improve or get worse through the year, or even through the week. They might lose to a worse team because of a freak fumble or a blown call.

At some point you just have to stand back and say, "on the whole, for the full season, this team was the best." I think the BCS does a better job of that than the sportswriters or any strictly human choice, because it is unemotional about the rankings, though it does use the polls as one factor.

Sure, I'd love to have a playoff too, but as I said, that is still no guarantee that the winner would be the "best". I think a better way might to take the top four teams and let them play a "round robin" with each team playing the others, but you'd probably still have situations without a clear champion.

But as much as I love football, I think to get this emotional about it to the point where you would go into a snit and refuse to watch great games because of some argument about how they were chosen is about the stupidest thing you could possibly do, and I am extremely skeptical about your resolve to do so.

[pgwenthold]

Originally posted by King of the Americas
..for my not posting this in the proper area.

I figured it was a current event...

---

That said I DISAGREE that the BSC delivers the best team.

I think the point is to find out who is the best at the END of the season,

2 points:

1) How do you know that USC is better than it was when it lost to Cal? How do you know they wouldn't lose to Cal if they played them again this weekend?

2) Hypothetical: Suppose a team is loaded with the best players in the country, clearly the best team around, capable of beating even the best pro teams. BUT for some strange reason, they are all hurt for the first 8 games. So, playing with second stringers, the team goes 0 - 8. But the starters all come back for the last three games, which happen to be against the #1, #2, and #3 teams in the country, and they win big. Do you crown them as champs, despite the fact that they went 3 - 8? They are very clearly the best at the end of the season...

[King of the Americas]

...in 5 years.

And moreover, I think to ALLOW this kind of thing to continue at the expense of a sincere Champion is a travesty to the Players, & the Fans.

Application is the BEST way to find accurate results.

You HAVE to test your 'paper' results, that's how we VERIFY our theories.

USE your ratings system to assemble the top teams, and then let them play out their abilities.

Your preferred system hinders and even destorys initiative, in those teams that suffer early season losses.

You MUST be given the opportunity to strive toward the greatest reward, from WHATEVER postion you hold.

Imagine the total failure you'd have if our economy was set up in a similar manner!?

[pgwenthold]

Originally posted by King of the Americas
...in 5 years.

And moreover, I think to ALLOW this kind of thing to continue at the expense of a sincere Champion is a travesty to the Players, & the Fans.


"Champion" is a matter of definition. If this is how the NCAA is determined, then that is the championship.

There is no "best way" to determine a champion.

[Psiload]

Originally posted by King of the Americas
the BCS Bowl System

Message:

Please send a like e-mail to ESPN, using the address below

---

To whom it may concern:

I am a Sports Fan, and an avid viewer of ESPN. I find your coverage of Sports Events to be top rate and without comparison.

For this reason I must submit this request:

"Will you please NOT cover any of the BCS Bowls, or the any of the results therein?"

I make this request because I find that the BSC Bowl Ratings System to be FLAWED, in that it ONLY offers up a paper champion who may not neccessarily be the BEST team. This system forces Players to compete for a practically MEANINGLESS title, and is thus unfair to Players & Fans alike.

Thank you for your time and consideration, but I must say I have no plans to watch ANY of the BCS Bowls or ANY of the coverage therein. If ESPN finds this opinion invalid, and airs coverage of these events, I plan to turn the channel.

Sincerely,

Albert J. Knabe
Sports Fan




http://msn.espn.go.com/sitetools/s/contact/espntv.html

-- Knabe of ESPN I fail to see how any of this is ESPN's fault, and I don't see how a boycott against ESPN is going to accomplish anything. The BCS isn't ESPN's fault. That's like threatening to boycott the U.S. Postal service for delivering junk mail to your home... it's shooting the messenger.

[Suddenly]

Originally posted by Psiload
I fail to see how any of this is ESPN's fault, and I don't see how a boycott against ESPN is going to accomplish anything. The BCS isn't ESPN's fault. That's like threatening to boycott the U.S. Postal service for delivering junk mail to your home... it's shooting the messenger.

There is also the slight problem that none of the 4 BCS bowls are going to be shown on ESPN. Maybe KOA is more powerful than you can possibly imagine.

[DavidJames]

"There is no "best way" to determine a champion."

Just a thought but maybe they could use the same method as few of the other college sports like

Cross Country, Basketball, Baseball, Field Hockey, Bowling, Golf, Football (div 1-AA, II and III), Fencing Lacrosse, Soccer, Gymnastics Rowing, Volleyball, Ice Hockey Softball, Water Polo, Rifle, Tennis, Skiing, Track & Field (outdoor), Swimming & Diving, Volleyball, Track & Field (indoor) Water Polo, and Wrestling.

namely, an end of the season tournament.

I don't hear many complaints about those sports.

[Suddenly]

Originally posted by DavidJames
"There is no "best way" to determine a champion."

Just a thought but maybe they could use the same method as few of the other college sports like

Cross Country, Basketball, Baseball, Field Hockey, Bowling, Golf, Football (div 1-AA, II and III), Fencing Lacrosse, Soccer, Gymnastics Rowing, Volleyball, Ice Hockey Softball, Water Polo, Rifle, Tennis, Skiing, Track & Field (outdoor), Swimming & Diving, Volleyball, Track & Field (indoor) Water Polo, and Wrestling.

namely, an end of the season tournament.

I don't hear many complaints about those sports.

Only because no one cares. Plus you do hear complaints in early march from a slew of minor conference basketball teams that go 23-2 and lost in their conference tournament and get passed over for the tournament in favor of a 18-10 team from the Big 12.

[pgwenthold]

Originally posted by DavidJames
"There is no "best way" to determine a champion."

Just a thought but maybe they could use the same method as few of the other college sports like

Cross Country, Basketball, Baseball, Field Hockey, Bowling, Golf, Football (div 1-AA, II and III), Fencing Lacrosse, Soccer, Gymnastics Rowing, Volleyball, Ice Hockey Softball, Water Polo, Rifle, Tennis, Skiing, Track & Field (outdoor), Swimming & Diving, Volleyball, Track & Field (indoor) Water Polo, and Wrestling.

namely, an end of the season tournament.

I don't hear many complaints about those sports.

As Suddenly notes, if you don't hear anyone complaining, then you certainly aren't listening. I follow NCAA women's volleyball very closely, and you would be amazed at how much people complain when the NCAA tournament selections are made.

Second, the BCS championship _is_ basically an end of the season tournament, except that is just a tournament of two teams. Sure, two teams are a lot less than 64 like some other sports use, but, OTOH, the NCAA men's volleyball tournament is only 4 teams, so it's not like a small field is unprecedented.

[Wolverine]

Originally posted by pgwenthold
Second, the BCS championship _is_ basically an end of the season tournament, except that is just a tournament of two teams.

LOL! :D

Calling one game between two teams a tournament is every bit as egregious an error as titling the NFL or MLB teams that finish their seasons on top World Champions.

[DavidJames]

Ok, so I'm missing the point again, it's happening a lot today :)

I am well aware of the complaints that goes on in other sports. Which is why I said "I don't hear many complaints " and not "if you don't hear anyone complaining". Talk about not listening.

It is true, among the complaints are those after the selection for the college men's BBall draw happens. But are you seriously saying that because in all the other sports, there are a few complaints by teams who feel they should have made the tournament, teams which would be in the middle of the pack, at best (using the 23-2 team in a minor conference as an example) you suggest a better alternative is a 2 team "tournament"?

[pgwenthold]

Originally posted by DavidJames
Ok, so I'm missing the point again, it's happening a lot today :)

I am well aware of the complaints that goes on in other sports. Which is why I said "I don't hear many complaints " and not "if you don't hear anyone complaining". Talk about not listening.

It is true, among the complaints are those after the selection for the college men's BBall draw happens. But are you seriously saying that because in all the other sports, there are a few complaints by teams who feel they should have made the tournament, teams which would be in the middle of the pack, at best (using the 23-2 team in a minor conference as an example) you suggest a better alternative is a 2 team "tournament"?

No, I'm saying that a "2 team tournament" is an alternative. As I have said, there is no best way to determine a championship. Hence, I would not say one alternative is better than another.

[BTox]

This is what happens when no team goes undefeated. Then the determination of who is best might as well be put to a computer model.

The problem I have with the system is that it somehow knocked my Penn State out of the top 10 - what a crock! ;)

[Tmy]

You forgetthe worse thing about the BCS, its collusion tween the big conferences to unsure that they get into the big money bowl games and championship. THe non BCS schools are all but barred from playing in the Championship. Theres been talk about the small schools suing and people have testfied to congress about the unfair BCS.

As for the computers. They alos take into account the "human" poll rankings. Juts cause you move a bias to a computer does not mean the bias dissappears.

The basketball tournament is the most fair. All you have to do to get in is win your conference title, then you get the automatic bid. SO theoritically just about every school in the country has an oppurtunity to get in the basketball champioship.

[pgwenthold]

Originally posted by Tmy

The basketball tournament is the most fair. All you have to do to get in is win your conference title, then you get the automatic bid.

Except, of course, for those teams that don't have to win their conference title, who still get bids. Notice that they are generally from the big conferences...

[Tmy]

Except its their opwn conference that decides f they want to send the regular season champ or tourney champ. Eiether way if you win the right games, you win the championship. You control your destiny.


Think of how silly the BCS can get. If OK won, then why even play the champ game? They probably had the #1 title wrapped up mathematically.

[pgwenthold]

Originally posted by Tmy
Except its their opwn conference that decides f they want to send the regular season champ or tourney champ.


But it's not just conference champs. You can win the NCAA basketball championship without winning your conference. But only if you are in a good enough conference such that non-conference champs still get to the tournament...

6 teams from the Big Ten will make the NCAA tournament. 6 Teams from the Pac Ten. 6 teams from the ACC. But the MEAC regular season champion will not make the tournament if they lose in the conference tournament.



Eiether way if you win the right games, you win the championship. You control your destiny.


"You win the right games, you win the championship"

So how does that not apply to football?


Think of how silly the BCS can get. If OK won, then why even play the champ game? They probably had the #1 title wrapped up mathematically.

Isn't the winner of the #1 and #2 given the BCS title automatically?

[Wolverine]

Originally posted by pgwenthold
Isn't the winner of the #1 and #2 given the BCS title automatically?

No. The participants in the ESPN/USA Today Coaches' poll have an agreement to vote the winner of the BCS title game #1 in their final poll. The sportswriters that comprise the AP poll are under no such obligation.

This year it's very possible for the AP to vote USC #1 at the end of the season. There's even an outside chance they could vote Michigan #1.

This marks the third time (with the highest probability coming this season) since the inception of the BCS that there's been a possibility of a split national championship, which, of course, the system was designed to avoid.

Doh.

[Tmy]

"6 teams from the Big Ten will make the NCAA tournament. 6 Teams from the Pac Ten. 6 teams from the ACC. But the MEAC regular season champion will not make the tournament if they lose in the conference tournament."

**Thats not true. Its not like the Pac 10, or ACC orr whatever has 6 guaranteed spots. THey have 1 spot. Other teams make it via at large bids, which depends on who/how they played during the year.



"You win the right games, you win the championship"

So how does that not apply to football?


**You can go undefeated in Football and not make it to the champ game.(as TCU almost did). In basketball you go undefeated you are definately in the tournament.


"Isn't the winner of the #1 and #2 given the BCS title automatically?"

Shouldnt it come down to the formula and not automatics? Thats how they got to # 1+ 2

[pgwenthold]

Originally posted by Tmy
["You win the right games, you win the championship"

So how does that not apply to football?


**You can go undefeated in Football and not make it to the champ game.(as TCU almost did).



But it's not like TCU was not allowed to play in the championship game. The other BCS bowls have overall conference requirements (in addition to at larges), but the championship game is still set for the top two teams, regardless of conference affiliation. You just have to win the right games to get there, which is what TCU did not do...

Now, as for the "non-competitive" aspects of the rest of the BCS bowls, it's no more anti-competitive than it was before when the Rose Bowl took the champs of the Pac 10 and Big 10, the Sugar Bowl always took the SEC champ, and the Big 12 champ always played in the Orange Bowl. Now, if you want to claim that bowls themselves are anti-competitive, it would be a different case, but you can't single out the BCS.

[Wolverine]

pgwenthold: Isn't the winner of the #1 and #2 given the BCS title automatically?

Tmy: Shouldnt it come down to the formula and not automatics? Thats how they got to # 1+ 2

Tmy: I hope I'm understanding you clearly; if not, please let me know. The BCS is finished for the season; its last function was to deliver the final BCS rankings, which it did Sunday. There will be no more adjustments to the rankings, nor is the BCS title game winner dependent upon its formula to recieve (at least a share of, in this case) the national title.

The only two remaining rankings to be issued are the final ESPN/USA Today Coaches' Poll and the final Associated Press Poll, which will be published after this year's Sugar Bowl.

[pgwenthold]

Originally posted by Tmy
Shouldnt it come down to the formula and not automatics? Thats how they got to # 1+ 2

Do you want a championship game or not?

The BCS formula finds the two teams to play for the championship. The winner is the BCS champion.

Application of the BCS formula afterward is another way to do it, but not the method they use.

[Wolverine]

Originally posted by pgwenthold
The BCS formula finds the two teams to play for the championship. The winner is the BCS champion.

Except in this case, where there are technically two championship games being played. :)

[Tmy]

Me, Im a Pac 10 boy. I liked the days of the Big vs Pac Rose Bowl. Is there anything better than watching Michigan getting smacked around on New Years day??? :p

I wouldnt mind a small playoff but the BCS is really no better than the old system. Only now they ruin the Rose Bowl every other year.

[Wolverine]

Originally posted by Tmy
Me, Im a Pac 10 boy. I liked the days of the Big vs Pac Rose Bowl. Is there anything better than watching Michigan getting smacked around on New Years day??? :p

This year, I wouldn't mind getting smacked around by USC if it delivers a split national championship. Careful though, we might be the ones who end up doing the smacking. ;) It just cracks me up that we lost two games and are still not completely ruled out from receiving a share of the title.

I wouldnt mind a small playoff but the BCS is really no better than the old system.

The upside of the BCS is that we're being presented with a couple of great games which wouldn't have been paired off under the previous system. In terms of crowning a national champion though, it has now ultimately been demonstrated as flawed, having failed three of the last four seasons (with this year yielding the worst outcome).

Only now they ruin the Rose Bowl every other year.

Well, technically once every four years; the difficulty was recently compounded by Ohio State's championship season, and the selection order of the remaining BCS bowls last year... but ah what the heck, we'll just say it was all OSU's fault. :D

[Tmy]

The BCS practices Pac10ism! Theres an east coast bias in the polls and this has led to USC getting bummped and the same thing happened to Oregon a couple years ago.


FYI Im a UW fan. USC can go to hell.:p