Five reasons CT will last 1000s of years [Archive]

Mac53

17th July 2009, 07:22 AM

1) They give people a sense of superiority .
2) They give people a sense of purpose to their lives to fight the evil
3) The believers are brainwashed to think they are the chosen ones and everyone else is wrong...
4) It is another dictator ship but the power is shifted throughout many leaders.
5) CTs are the exact same as religion, unprovable, (all the religions survived 2k years because of this.

Science changes and alters it's beliefs as new evidence and ideas come about. While religion and other belif in fairytale stay the same, they will never collude along the side of science because the whole structure of their belief may be destroyed with just a hair of evidence.

I do not say CTs are not true, but i am not going ot say they are true. I will say they are possible, with more information and less dilution. Some things in CTs are true as some things in urban legends are. They are based on a simple fact, and stretched into a market of information.

I don't feel any reason for anyone to argue this but rather give more example and reason of why these CTs will last forever. It is just apart of all my observations i have noticed from being a CTs/religious person.

Longfellow

17th July 2009, 10:09 AM

I don't feel any reason for anyone to argue this but rather give more example and reason of why these CTs will last forever. It is just apart of all my observations i have noticed from being a CTs/religious person.

Bolding mine. You may have picked the wrong forum for posting this if you don't want someone to argue your points (pro and con). This is the JREF after all. Lively conversation is rather the rule around here. With that said.

While 1 agree with their general sentiment, I must admit that, to me, the rules themselves need a bit of work. Before I go any further I should mention that, In My Humble Opinion, one needs to include all religions under the vast umbrella of Conspiracy Theories. In the non-religion category, I'm going to limit my thoughts to the more historically recent JFK and Apollo conspiracy theories as well as the recent spate of CTs that sprang (sprung?) up after the unfortunate events of 11 September, 2001. What follows is posted under that presumption but if you want to add something in addition to those four (religion, JFK, Apollo, and 9/11), please feel free to do so.

Five reasons CT will last 1000s of years

1) They give people a sense of superiority .
2) They give people a sense of purpose to their lives to fight the evil
3) The believers are brainwashed to think they are the chosen ones and everyone else is wrong...
4) It is another dictator ship but the power is shifted throughout many leaders.(sic)
5) CTs are the exact same as religion, unprovable, (all the religions survived 2k years because of this.

Individually.

1) They give people a sense of superiority .

Starts out well. I've personal experience with both JFK and Apollo conspiracy theory adherents. In my purview this inclination is most strident in Creationists. I have an aunt who is a bible thumper through-and-through. She carries a small one in her purse and makes a point of carrying a large one when she travels. To her, the bible is the absolute word of god: Earth was created in 6 day, Adam ad Eve begat humanity, Noah loaded the animals onto the Ark and survived. . .yadda yadda yadda. To me, it's all a load of poppycock. . .a feeling she knows I have. She takes great delight in telling me that if I could just give myself over to god my life would be so much better. I politely tell her that I don't feel the need to think someone/something is pulling the strings of my life. I like my life. I'm comfortable in my own skin. But to her, my life is empty because I don't have religion.

2) They give people a sense of purpose to their lives to fight the evil

So far so good. The aunt I mentioned believes in the devil, as well. It doesn't get much more evil than him. I'm unsure exactly what it is she's doing to fight that evil but doubtless she feels prayers are enough. It's a little iffy in regards to the JFK and Apollo CTs but dovetails nicely with the 'truth movement'. It can stay.

3) The believers are brainwashed to think they are the chosen ones and everyone else is wrong...

You could probably lose that one. While I feel it is true that leaders of the various religions world-wide throughout history have engaged in the occasional 'brainwashing', it seems you're assuming JFK, Apollo, and the more recent 9/11 'truthers' were all brainwashed as well. Brainwashed is a buzzword and an inelegant one at that(IMHO). If you are trying to explain why people believe, rules 1 and 2 pretty much have that covered. With that said.

1)They give people a sense of superiority .
2) They give people a sense of purpose to their lives to fight the evil
3) The believers are brainwashed to think they are the chosen ones and everyone else is wrong...

Continuing.

4) It is another dictator ship but the power is shifted throughout many leaders.(sic)

Um. . .huh? I'm not sure exactly what it is you're saying here. How is a JFK conspiracy theory devotee compared to Pol Pot (http://www.dictatorofthemonth.com/Pol_Pot/Mar2004PolPotEN.htm)? Now that was a dictatorship. I've been all around this great wide web and in no way, shape, or form can Jack White be considered a dictator. That one should probably go, too.

1)They give people a sense of superiority .
2) They give people a sense of purpose to their lives to fight the evil
3) The believers are brainwashed to think they are the chosen ones and everyone else is wrong...
4) It is another dictator ship but the power is shifted throughout many leaders. (sic)

Sorry 'bout that.

5) CTs are the exact same as religion, unprovable, (all the religions survived 2k years because of this.

Indeed [/Teal'C mode]

But In My Humble Opinion, that's already covered in the overall meme which make up the various Conspiracy Theories.

Let's see here.

1)They give people a sense of superiority .
2) They give people a sense of purpose to their lives to fight the evil
3) The believers are brainwashed to think they are the chosen ones and everyone else is wrong...
4) It is another dictator ship but the power is shifted throughout many leaders.(sic)
5) CTs are the exact same as religion, unprovable, (all the religions survived 2k years because of this.

--

There, I think that pretty much explains why CTs likely always have and always will be a part of what makes us 'us'.

Five Two reasons CT will last 1000s of years

1) They give people a sense of superiority .
2) They give people a sense of purpose to their lives to fight the evil.

Yep, you nailed it.

[/sardonic mode]

~enigma~

17th July 2009, 10:15 AM

3) The believers are brainwashed to think they are the chosen ones and everyone else is wrong...
You are saying CT believers are wanna be jews?

rwguinn

17th July 2009, 10:17 AM

The ignorant, lazy, and stupid are out-breeding the educated, inquisitive, and intelligent 4 to 1?

Longfellow

17th July 2009, 10:24 AM

The ignorant, lazy, and stupid are out-breeding the educated, inquisitive, and intelligent 4 to 1?

Well, we are not all cut from the same cloth: Idiots abound.

dudalb

17th July 2009, 12:34 PM

Human Stupidity is Eternal.

jhunter1163

17th July 2009, 01:09 PM

[I]I do not say CTs are not true, but i am not going ot say they are true. I will say they are possible, with more information and less dilution.

It depends on the particular CT. Some conspiracies are well established to be true, such as Watergate; others are pretty obviously nonsense, such as the moon-hoax CT. It is certain that conspiracies have been, and no doubt still are, being perpetrated; each CT should be evaluated on the evidence for or against it.

Mac53

17th July 2009, 01:16 PM

LongFellow....

What i meant by arguments is simply getting the truthers to stay out (there are some here i have seen.) I am glad you looked more into my idea's and made them even better. I was hopping for a discussion and adding to the list but i think the list is as simple as it gets. 2 reasons why i think is right on the rest where somewhat connected to the others.

As for #4 i was referring to people like David Icke, or Alex Jones sort of like priests or what ever in the church. Most of the time a priest is not questioned just assumed he speaks the word of god/jesus or w/e.

Thanks for correcting this for me.

dudalb "Human Stupidity is Eternal."

Well put.

#3 "Human Stupidity is Eternal."

Now we have 3 good reason why CTs will last for 1000s of years

Mac53

17th July 2009, 01:35 PM

It depends on the particular CT. Some conspiracies are well established to be true, such as Watergate; others are pretty obviously nonsense, such as the moon-hoax CT. It is certain that conspiracies have been, and no doubt still are, being perpetrated; each CT should be evaluated on the evidence for or against it.

Yes i know, this is what i wrote...

I do not say CTs are not true, but i am not going ot say they are true. I will say they are possible, with more information and less dilution. Some things in CTs are true as some things in urban legends are. They are based on a simple fact, and stretched into a market of information.

With more information. The CTs on the net are based on a pic or some guys experience etc. With more information we can uncover these things more.

My post is relating more to the believers of CTs not the investigators. You know the type of people who watch a video and feel a need to send the link everywhere they can...friends,family,face book,you tube, forums etc...

The people who look at both sides are ignored and really don't apply to the now 3 reasons why CTs will last forever.,

Maybe you misread or just read the 5 things??

jhunter1163

17th July 2009, 02:53 PM

Mac53:

I did misunderstand you, sorry.

LightinDarkness

17th July 2009, 06:37 PM

T.A.M.

17th July 2009, 06:50 PM

One reason why CTs will last 1000's of years.

1. It is human nature to mistrust.

TAM:)

Mac53

17th July 2009, 06:55 PM

I would be very careful about classifying CT and religion in the same category, because the similarities are not really there.

It is true that most religions require faith in something, and this is the same faith required to believe in CTs, but the reasons behind that faith are different. Religions usually have - or demand - a humbling effect on the faithful. Followers become subservient to Deity. In CTs, the faithful become almost gods in themselves - having more knowledge than the sheeple, and having an almost god-like insight into what is "really" going on.

I place religion in a "interesting phenomena but rarely harmful" category. Religion can harm, but I'm much more worried about CTers.

I would have ot disagree. Religion causes war etc etc. Cts sit at home on the internet or some protest. They are annoying, they don't kill or anything like that.

Remember i am comparing extreme CTs to Religion. Depending on how much CT you are in to you do belive in some sort of "godly force". But I also said that because i list these things does not for any reason mean that CTs are not true. If a rational person had access to ALL evidence and such simple conclusions cna be made with science. Are the rubble of the WTC accessible to people or is it sold off for example. See there is something wrong with 9/11 but the thing is no one can tell a good story without the hard evidence.

I'm aiming at the people who discredit and expand theory's and don't take hte time to understand just take sides. The people who believe but don't understand.

I mean how fast would you shut someone up if you had available the physical evidence of the crime scene of 9/11. You would get the entire story piece by piece and things would be solved. Logical people don't think of this but yell out 2 things: 9/11 is an inside job or new investigation into 9/11.

This is how science works anyways, the scientific opinion of the time based on current evidence will be changed as new evidence is available and more things are discovered.

That is what i am saying... i ramble a bit but i want to make my point clear for those who do listen to it.

Mac

LightinDarkness

17th July 2009, 07:57 PM

I would have ot disagree. Religion causes war etc etc. Cts sit at home on the internet or some protest. They are annoying, they don't kill or anything like that.

You are, of course, free to disagree - but the facts do not support your arguments. Besides the Crusades and a few other wars, no religion has ever been directly responsible for "causing" war. World War I and II killed more people than any religion caused war by such magnitudes that it is astonishing, and neither had any religion based component.

People who have bought into the social trend of bashing religion often trot out this "OMG RELIGION CAUSES WARS" line and it just isn't supported by the facts. Even with the Crusades, there is a VERY strongly academic and evidence based argument to make that no one involved thought religion had anything to do with it, least of all the Catholic Church. The only people who actually believed there was some sort of religion component were the peasants, who usually did not participate (there were exceptions).

The truth is that people cause wars, not religion. Politics have been responsible for more deaths than anything, but for some reason people love to lob onto religion.

CTs, on the other hand, can kill people. If you believe in anti-vaccination conspiracy, you will die if we ever have a pandemic and be responsible for the deaths of others. If you believe the NWO is real and that it controls the military, you could get yourself killed by going RAMBO style on them (as at least two conspiracy theorists have recently). If you believe Jews control the world, during the holocaust you could easily become complicit or directly involved in mass murder. Conspiracy propaganda, such as the Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion, were used directly by Hitler to advocate for the deaths of all jewish people.

CTs kill, and they have been responsible for the deaths of countless people. They are NOT simply "annoying." See also this list of recent conspiracy related deaths or harm:
http://whatstheharm.net/conspiracytheories.html

Remember i am comparing extreme CTs to Religion. Depending on how much CT you are in to you do belive in some sort of "godly force". But I also said that because i list these things does not for any reason mean that CTs are not true. If a rational person had access to ALL evidence and such simple conclusions cna be made with science. Are the rubble of the WTC accessible to people or is it sold off for example. See there is something wrong with 9/11 but the thing is no one can tell a good story without the hard evidence.

The comparison does not hold. Any belief in CT is due to the result of believing you know what the sheeple do not - and requires a faith that is arguably much more intense than religion.

By the way, I hope you meant to say there is "nothing" instead of "something" wrong with the 9/11 story. The "official story" is indeed the facts.

I'm aiming at the people who discredit and expand theory's and don't take hte time to understand just take sides. The people who believe but don't understand.

I mean how fast would you shut someone up if you had available the physical evidence of the crime scene of 9/11. You would get the entire story piece by piece and things would be solved. Logical people don't think of this but yell out 2 things: 9/11 is an inside job or new investigation into 9/11.

This is how science works anyways, the scientific opinion of the time based on current evidence will be changed as new evidence is available and more things are discovered.

That is what i am saying... i ramble a bit but i want to make my point clear for those who do listen to it.

OK...I am not sure how any of this has to do with you grouping CT in with religion.

Note I am not arguing religion gets the all clear here, simply that popular religion bashing sentiment is misguided. On the list of things that are harmful to humanity religion is much further down on my list than CTs.

MG1962

17th July 2009, 08:04 PM

T.A.M.

17th July 2009, 08:18 PM

Can you name a CT that has lasted a 1000 years

The Jewish Priests had Jesus killed.

TAM:)

MG1962

17th July 2009, 09:18 PM

The Jewish Priests had Jesus killed.

TAM:)

LOL - thats the offical story.........not the CT

Mac53

17th July 2009, 09:26 PM

LightinDarkness...

Glad you brought that up. I can kind of understand that point now. Religions do not wage war, they do not participate they just spot our hte enemy. But i guess people don't understand it and take it to seriously (Religious extremists who would kill)

As for the religion vs CTs it's a kind of the same theme but i think it's different in many ways which you brought up. Thanks for clearing that up...

As for people not taking vaccines for the epidemics which from my knowledge have not really happened or many recently. To say that you told people to stop taking vaccines as David Icke has said in the last video thing he does (couple of days ago). I don't think he would be responsible for it, he is only giving out information, surely he says this and he does. People like to make strange claims instead of reading the fine print and realizing he is a journalist unlike the ones on the camera on the mainstream media.

I think that nor i or you are truly qualified to talk about vaccines, medicine or illness etc. Unless you have a scientific background and have done experiments and understand all those things.

Also, i don't think 2 people killing represent the whole truth movement.

Also you say Hitler killed millions of jews, what about the other millions of people. Why must people focus on just the jews? Other millions have died as well. Jews weren't the only "unpure" race. disabled people, homosexuals etc as well. :)

I kind of realize that i didn't think the religion vs CTs thing through. It does have some aspects but looking closer it's a bit different.

As for the 9/11 thing, something is wrong as in there is a bunch of confusion even within the NIST report(read Disclaimer)

Obviously we are not going to get into a 9/11 argument here. I am just pointing out that the official story dosn't hold up, it is more of a theory if you understand how long it took for an investigation to happen.

I'll just put out my opinion so i'm understood...

Does the investigation of 9/11 have any investigation done by physical evidence such as black Boxes,rubble of WTF collapse, thermographs etc. I do not think it does, rather it came up with a rather great conclusion real fast.

I don't understand these internet people and thinking evidence is a link to a site that has a picture of something. I suppose you cna say there are many scientists supporting hte official story and yet i ask what about the offical evidence of the crime scene.

If a murder of someone happen in a home then police would come tap off hte area and look for clue etc right away. Look for DNA, dental records or what ever.

What happened on 9/11? They taped off everything started investigating or starting hauling away evidence? Am i misinformed here or what?

Yes i know they are looking for bodies, which but how would bodies survive if steel didn't and concrete didn't. I dono, i may coem of as a troother but i am not saying the 9/11 is an inside job or somthing. I am saying that it lacked a formal criminal investigation where all the evidence(physical) is examined and noted. Instead we have missing things, sold or destroyed. Seriously and you say the official story is a fact....

:) sorry for the rant, but i need to explain myself better because i don't want to spend 25 posts to explain what i can doing in 1 post.

"Can you name a CT that has lasted a 1000 years "

Did i say one existed? Read the post carefully please. It says this is why CT will last 1000s of years instead of what you said.

"LOL - thats the offical story.........not the CT"

As for this, well is there any proof of Jesus? No most of hte peopel who wrote about him wrote about him later on as they joined the misson of christ as i understand it.

It's only official because everyone respects and believes it. However Islam has a different account etc etc. (They have diffrent documents accepted that the Holy Bible does not to my knowledge from some documenatries i saw)

And please don't turn this thread into an argument about how Jesus existed, there is a conspiracy topic, go their preach about christ.

Most of the reasons have already been established and i feel as if this thread is done :)

Mac

LightinDarkness

17th July 2009, 09:43 PM

It appears as though Mac53 is still embracing the woo...

As for people not taking vaccines for the epidemics which from my knowledge have not really happened or many recently. To say that you told people to stop taking vaccines as David Icke has said in the last video thing he does (couple of days ago). I don't think he would be responsible for it, he is only giving out information, surely he says this and he does. People like to make strange claims instead of reading the fine print and realizing he is a journalist unlike the ones on the camera on the mainstream media.

The unneeded spread of preventable diseases have resulted due to anti-vaccination CT woo. Although I doubt the swine flu will turn into anything serious, if it ever did the CTs are already spreading woo about the vaccination and claiming they will not get vaccinated and, in some cases, I've seen posters claiming they will use deadly force to not get vaccinated.

This is why anti-vaxx woo is deadly. Those who spread the anti-vaxx propaganda have killed people before and their responsibility will be increased if we ever have a serious epidemic.

Why are you supporting David Icke? He is not a journalist, he is a woo peddler and a liar. He, as a anti-vaxxer among other woo causes he champions, is responsible for spreading propaganda that could kill people.

I think that nor i or you are truly qualified to talk about vaccines, medicine or illness etc. Unless you have a scientific background and have done experiments and understand all those things.

I think I am quite qualified to talk about them since the entirety of scientific/medical research shows that vaccines are safe and a key part of maintaining good public health. Are you disputing this?

Also, i don't think 2 people killing represent the whole truth movement.

The facts remain: twoof played a key role in their delusions.

Also you say Hitler killed millions of jews, what about the other millions of people. Why must people focus on just the jews? Other millions have died as well. Jews weren't the only "unpure" race. disabled people, homosexuals etc as well. :)

So? Does it make it any less wrong that he used CT as a basis to murder people? I am a freemason and Hitler wiped out every mason he could find - based on CT. By tens of thousands of masons cannot compare to the millions of jews.

I kind of realize that i didn't think the religion vs CTs thing through. It does have some aspects but looking closer it's a bit different.

I don't think any evidence supports any similarities beyond a superficial level.

As for the 9/11 thing, something is wrong as in there is a bunch of confusion even within the NIST report(read Disclaimer)

I have read the entire thing. Nothing is wrong with the report.

Obviously we are not going to get into a 9/11 argument here. I am just pointing out that the official story dosn't hold up, it is more of a theory if you understand how long it took for an investigation to happen.

The official story does hold up. Its not a theory, its what happened.

Does the investigation of 9/11 have any investigation done by physical evidence such as black Boxes,rubble of WTF collapse, thermographs etc. I do not think it does, rather it came up with a rather great conclusion real fast.

The conclusions are confirmed based on all the evidence supporting a terrorist attack by Islamic extremists.

I don't understand these internet people and thinking evidence is a link to a site that has a picture of something. I suppose you cna say there are many scientists supporting hte official story and yet i ask what about the offical evidence of the crime scene.

Lots of official evidence of the crime scenes. All in the reports. There are no credible scientists who believe in the woo of 9/11.

If a murder of someone happen in a home then police would come tap off hte area and look for clue etc right away. Look for DNA, dental records or what ever.

What happened on 9/11? They taped off everything started investigating or starting hauling away evidence? Am i misinformed here or what?

They did what you would in any investigation.

Yes i know they are looking for bodies, which but how would bodies survive if steel didn't and concrete didn't. I dono, i may coem of as a troother but i am not saying the 9/11 is an inside job or somthing. I am saying that it lacked a formal criminal investigation where all the evidence(physical) is examined and noted. Instead we have missing things, sold or destroyed. Seriously and you say the official story is a fact....

You are a twoofer already. Lots of steel and concrete survived, the collapse site was huge and took forever to haul off.

There was a formal criminal investigation that chrociled all the physical evidence. It was in the 9/11 commission report. The official story is a fact.

Mac53 is quite the enigma - he bashes conspiracy theories while...believing in the 9/11 and anti-vaxx woo conspiracies.

Brainache

17th July 2009, 11:05 PM

LOL - thats the offical story.........not the CT

Isn't Christianity a CT?
The Father the Son and The Holy Ghost conspiring together to overthrow the authority of the Church as it was in 1st century Judea and dismantle the power of Rome?These invisible powers working together using human agents as their puppets to exert their power over the masses?

The fact that many see this as a benign divine plan in no way lessens the truth of the idea that it is an unprovable CT. Just like any other CT: It relies on faith instead of evidence; the only shreds of evidence ever produced in its favour are little bits of conflicting hearsay and trying to openly question the basic assumptions of the faith will get you banned/ex-communicated or worse.

The faithful often exude an insufferable smugness and an arrogant self righteousness.

Research involves simply re-reading the same texts over and over until you see things the same way as the preacher says they are.

The similarities between CTs and religions are endless and the differences seem to me (a non-believer) to be merely differences of degree, not kind.

I expect that not everyone will agree with me and also that I may have a picture of religion that is not shared by all, but I'm just adding my two cents.

There it is: To me, religions are CTs and CTs are a type of religion. Religions have been with us for thousands of years, so too with CTs.

Thus spake Brainache.

Ahhhwomen.

MG1962

17th July 2009, 11:20 PM

Isn't Christianity a CT?
The Father the Son and The Holy Ghost conspiring together to overthrow the authority of the Church as it was in 1st century Judea and dismantle the power of Rome?These invisible powers working together using human agents as their puppets to exert their power over the masses?

Okay so the Jews started Christianity to bring down the Roman Empire. Well you worked Jews into the conspiracy so you must be right :p

Brainache

18th July 2009, 12:05 AM

Okay so the Jews started Christianity to bring down the Roman Empire. Well you worked Jews into the conspiracy so you must be right :p

Actually I was saying that it was a conspiracy between "The Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost", you know, the invisible puppet masters...

Mac53

18th July 2009, 03:54 PM

***BOLD IS MINE***
It appears as though Mac53 is still embracing the woo...

Seems as if you assume many things. One being i'm embracing. Not i am questioning and gathering information.

The unneeded spread of preventable diseases have resulted due to anti-vaccination CT woo. Although I doubt the swine flu will turn into anything serious, if it ever did the CTs are already spreading woo about the vaccination and claiming they will not get vaccinated and, in some cases, I've seen posters claiming they will use deadly force to not get vaccinated.

So, do we not live in a free society, people can do with their lives what htey want so long as they don't harm others. Are you saying that we should vaccinate everyone jsut because we THINK the vaccine might work. So if rape was acceptable, and everyone said to rape every child and some people opposed you would look down upon them? People have rights. BTW that whole thing is massive speculation without a trace of fact, just a conspiracy about a conspiracy.

This is why anti-vaxx woo is deadly. Those who spread the anti-vaxx propaganda have killed people before and their responsibility will be increased if we ever have a serious epidemic. (If this is true then goerge bush is responsible for the deaths of millions of Iraqi children, since you help spread the propaganda you have helped kill million of children and family and destroyed a nation.)

So first you say "the swine flu might not be anything then you say it may be deadly if you don't take a vaccine. Get your facts straight, or well specullations.
Why are you supporting David Icke? He is not a journalist, he is a woo peddler and a liar. He, as a anti-vaxxer among other woo causes he champions, is responsible for spreading propaganda that could kill people.

I think I am quite qualified What qualification would that be?to talk about them since the entirety of scientific/medical research shows that vaccines are safe and a key part of maintaining good public health. Are you disputing this?

DO you have a link to the sicentific research, that is backed?

The facts remain: twoof played a key role in their delusions.

So? Does it make it any less wrong that he used CT as a basis to murder people? I am a freemason and Hitler wiped out every mason he could find - based on CT. By tens of thousands of masons cannot compare to the millions of jews.

Well 6 million jews were killed vs 5 million other people. Don't see what your arguing here...

I don't think any evidence supports any similarities beyond a superficial level.

I have read the entire thing. Nothing is wrong with the report.

Read the disclaimer...

The official story does hold up. Its not a theory, its what happened.

Yet many scientiscts deny it? Why because hte official story is made up by SCIENTIFIC OPINION not evidence from the scene of the crime. Which you seem to ignore, but you like arguing everything else i say...

The conclusions are confirmed based on all the evidence supporting a terrorist attack by Islamic extremists.

Yes it must be the Islamic terrorists, and what links them to the murder a video tape? A passport? How about DNA, Dental records, etc. Evidence seems to have been missing or burned by flames(BLackbox.)

Lots of official evidence of the crime scenes. All in the reports. There are no credible scientists who believe in the woo of 9/11.

By credible do you mean funded? And if they were ot disagree they would lsoe said funding? The evidence is opinion of people who understand the type of things. Don't make it a fact but a strong opinion.

They did what you would in any investigation.

You are a twoofer already. Lots of steel and concrete survived, the collapse site was huge and took forever to haul off.

GLad you mentiaoned that, hauled of to where? Labs for analysis perhaps? or sold/destroyed missing? Clear that up for me.
There was a formal criminal investigation that chrociled all the physical evidence. It was in the 9/11 commission report. The official story is a fact.

Read disclaimer. What evidence specifically? The actualy colums and bems and ruble and dust? Or pretty pictures and movies?

Mac53 is quite the enigma - he bashes conspiracy theories while...believing in the 9/11 and anti-vaxx woo conspiracies.

Removed Rule 12 violation. Where do i say "9/11 is an inside job" I said something dosn't add up, and real evidence is missing. You say i' ma truther based on what? The fact i question things? Why do you assume and imply ****, i bash the extremist CTs as i explained like 2-5 times in my posts. Yet you seem to draw your own conclusion that seem to match your point just like a CT. Wow.

Next time you assume things at least back it by evidence. I will never say 9/11 is an inside job, how can i even prove such a statement. The same way you cannot prove Islamic extremist did it. Seems you just listen ot what your told, and ignore all else. At least i have looked at both side and realize there is only speculative arguments and a whole lots of coincidences and physical evidence missing. Unless i am misinformed and the real evidence had been studied and proven all CTs false. seems to me as if it's a popular vote, credible scientists vs unpopular scientists. But if your going to argue 9/11 just start a thread in the 9/11 section and leave this one to why CTs will last a long time.

MAC
Removed a personal insult. Please read the Membership Agreement (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=25744), especially rule 12 and the bit about don't expect never to be insulted. Your observations must refer to the argument, and not JUST be about another poster.

Thank you
Tricky

jakesteele

19th July 2009, 02:40 PM

******You are, of course, free to disagree - but the facts do not support your arguments. Besides the Crusades and a few other wars, no religion has ever been directly responsible for "causing" war. World War I and II killed more people than any religion caused war by such magnitudes that it is astonishing, and neither had any religion based component.

People who have bought into the social trend of bashing religion often trot out this "OMG RELIGION CAUSES WARS" line and it just isn't supported by the facts. Even with the Crusades, there is a VERY strongly academic and evidence based argument to make that no one involved thought religion had anything to do with it, least of all the Catholic Church. The only people who actually believed there was some sort of religion component were the peasants, who usually did not participate (there were exceptions).

The truth is that people cause wars, not religion. Politics have been responsible for more deaths than anything, but for some reason people love to lob onto religion.

CTs, on the other hand, can kill people. If you believe in anti-vaccination conspiracy, you will die if we ever have a pandemic and be responsible for the deaths of others. If you believe the NWO is real and that it controls the military, you could get yourself killed by going RAMBO style on them (as at least two conspiracy theorists have recently). If you believe Jews control the world, during the holocaust you could easily become complicit or directly involved in mass murder. Conspiracy propaganda, such as the Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion, were used directly by Hitler to advocate for the deaths of all jewish people.

CTs kill, and they have been responsible for the deaths of countless people. They are NOT simply "annoying." See also this list of recent conspiracy related deaths or harm:
http://whatstheharm.net/conspiracytheories.html

Would you please quantify 'countless'? The link show 2000 plus. Any war kills more than that. In 2008 there were over 39,000 traffic deaths. So why all the hate towards CTers?

The comparison does not hold. Any belief in CT is due to the result of believing you know what the sheeple do not - and requires a faith that is arguably much more intense than religion.

By the way, I hope you meant to say there is "nothing" instead of "something" wrong with the 9/11 story. The "official story" is indeed the facts.

OK...I am not sure how any of this has to do with you grouping CT in with religion.

Note I am not arguing religion gets the all clear here, simply that popular religion bashing sentiment is misguided. On the list of things that are harmful to humanity religion is much further down on my list than CTs.

T.A.M.

19th July 2009, 04:23 PM

LOL - thats the offical story.........not the CT

depends on who you ask. Some say it was largely Rome, others largely the Jewish Priests...

TAM;)

JihadJane

19th July 2009, 04:35 PM

1)
I don't feel any reason for anyone to argue this but rather give more example and reason of why these CTs will last forever.

Forever?

LightinDarkness

19th July 2009, 04:46 PM

JihadJane

19th July 2009, 04:51 PM

I can say with absolute certainty, backed by the evidence, that 9/11 was a plot by Islamic extremists. I can prove it - its called the 9/11 Commission Report.

:D

LightinDarkness

19th July 2009, 04:53 PM

We're not laughing with you, Jihad. We're laughing at you.

Mac53

19th July 2009, 08:52 PM

Mac53's recent post was filled with forum rule violations so I'm going to not directly quote anything. What we have here is someone trying to use the facade of skepticism to further peddle the woo. Now, it doesn't really matter that someone believes in conspiracy theories like this one, its just amusing when they try to act like they are not a CTer.

I can say with absolute certainty, backed by the evidence, that 9/11 was a plot by Islamic extremists. I can prove it - its called the 9/11 Commission Report. Those are the facts. There is no speculation on them except from conspiracy theorists who do not want to embrace the facts and reality. There are no scientists who have offered any evidence to the contrary, and there are a grand total of 4 (or is it 3? Can't remember) who authored the Jones article from a vanity press journal that have been debunked.

Vaccines are perfectly safe and there is nothing wrong with them. If you choose to believe in Anti-Vaxx quackery its much different than believing in 9/11 conspiracy lies. By stopping people from getting vaccinations they need or refusing to take perfectly safe vaccines yourself, you help spread afflictions which vaccines would otherwise make you immune against. If you wish to claim, in contrary to all the evidence and science, that vaccines are bad - please provide the evidence. As a woo I do not expect Mac53 to know about burden of proof, so let's review: it is up to YOU to prove your claims, not me.

Mac, like other twoofers and conspiracy theorists, primarily relies on two main tactics: using the argument from ignorance logical fallacy and attempting to confuse the burden of proof principle. Nothing new here, same old debunked arguments, same old debunked tactics.

Here is a link to a part of the disclaimer. Maybe you can find the whole thing.

http://algoxy.com/psych/images/nist.disclaimer3_4.jpg

I would also like to re shift the argument and end it so that we can continue the on topic thread.

Can you confirm that you believe all CTs are incorrect, non fact based and made up by crazy people?

You have agreed and said 2 times in this thread that Islamic terrorists have been directly responsible for the terrorist attacks on 9/11. Do you feel that this terrorist attack is considered murder of innocent people? (Mass Murder).

Can i get your position on the war in Afghanistan? Is it related to the war in Iraq?

Would you agree there is no weapons of mass destruction and no more Saddam? What is the reason to stay in this nation?

Since i am not sure, what is it that the soldiers under the order of th president are doing in these two nations?

Do you believe that mass murder is a terrible crime and the people who are involved in such actions or allow such actions to happen should be punished and held accountable for such actions?

Once you can clarify my questions we can move on to our discussion. I, unlike you do not assume things. And if i did before in this thread well i am obviously learning. I also apologize for the insult i have posted about you.

Mac

MG1962

19th July 2009, 11:03 PM

Would you agree there is no weapons of mass destruction and no more Saddam? What is the reason to stay in this nation?

International law - you invade a country. You are responsible for it and the welfare of the invaded people. That is why the US stayed at least long enough for a stable government and institutions to be established and prove both their stablity and longevity

JihadJane

20th July 2009, 03:02 AM

We're not laughing with you, Jihad. We're laughing at you.

How many LightinDarknesses are there?

International law - you invade a country. You are responsible for it and the welfare of the invaded people. That is why the US stayed at least long enough for a stable government and institutions to be established and prove both their stablity and longevity

:D

Another very bad joke and why the past tense ("stayed")?

LightinDarkness

20th July 2009, 05:02 AM

Here is a link to a part of the disclaimer. Maybe you can find the whole thing.

Here is a link to the 9/11 report. Maybe you should read the whole thing before trotting out twoofer propaganda:
www.9-11commission.gov/report/911Report.pdf

By the way, if you would read your own links you would see that they do not say what you believe they do. None of the disclaimers on the NIST report state that no investigation was conduced like you seem to think they do. Of course, the NIST report is not the same as the 9/11 commission report - do you even know the difference? My goodness, we have a twoofer who doesn't even know the difference.

I would also like to re shift the argument and end it so that we can continue the on topic thread.

Then perhaps you should stop spreading twoofer propaganda? Its the quickest way to shift the thread toward your anti-vaxx propaganda.

Can you confirm that you believe all CTs are incorrect, non fact based and made up by crazy people?

Argument from ignorance fallacy, try again:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance

You have agreed and said 2 times in this thread that Islamic terrorists have been directly responsible for the terrorist attacks on 9/11. Do you feel that this terrorist attack is considered murder of innocent people? (Mass Murder).

Can i get your position on the war in Afghanistan? Is it related to the war in Iraq?

Would you agree there is no weapons of mass destruction and no more Saddam? What is the reason to stay in this nation?

This is an attempt to sway the thread with your political propaganda talking points. The fact that 9/11 was a terrorist attack committed by Islamic extremists has no relationship to my personal views on the wars in Afghanistan or Iraq.

But as its already been pointed out - the reason to stay is because the United States has an obligation to replace what it destroyed. Or perhaps you would prefer a nation of anarchy?

Since i am not sure, what is it that the soldiers under the order of th president are doing in these two nations?

What does your political opinion matter on the facts of the 9/11 attack?

Do you believe that mass murder is a terrible crime and the people who are involved in such actions or allow such actions to happen should be punished and held accountable for such actions?

This, again, has nothing to do with your twoofer propaganda talking points.

Once you can clarify my questions we can move on to our discussion. I, unlike you do not assume things. And if i did before in this thread well i am obviously learning. I also apologize for the insult i have posted about you.

Mac

Actually, this is all you do - you assume things.

LightinDarkness

20th July 2009, 05:03 AM

How many LightinDarknesses are there?

:D

Another very bad joke and why the past tense ("stayed")?

Jihad still living in a world of delusions. One day you'll grow up. :rolleyes:

Mac53

20th July 2009, 05:04 AM

How many LightinDarknesses are there?

:D

Another very bad joke and why the past tense ("stayed")?

These guy seem to answer one question and ignore the rest, provide no evidence. Then they go on and say "we are laughign at you idoits for questioing this while we do not provide the proof"

i just want answers to all questions. I got 1 question answered by the person who was not asked the question. I am asking someone else but i suppose you give a good answer.

IMO thats a weird law. First you go in bomb people, kill their people. then you take care or them?

I hear alot about the war in the Middle East a way to control Oil? Have they got any control of oil or any sort of gain other then killing htem terrorist?

Who are they also after? The people who are responsible are all dead. (According to the official story) and only Osama remains? Is there proof of more remeber of his extremist group?

i will ask a few more question when i get my other questions answered. Seems that no one has answered them yet but they jump right on my nuts and say I am a CT and such when i ask questions and defend a theory.

I also defend black people against racism that make me black? The law defends criminals, treats them with respect is the law also a criminal?

For people who have figured it all out it seems you have as many hole as the CT.

Awaiting responses to allmy questions, should take another week?

Mac

Mac53

20th July 2009, 05:11 AM

These guy seem to answer one question and ignore the rest, provide no evidence. Then they go on and say "we are laughign at you idoits for questioing this while we do not provide the proof"

i just want answers to all questions. I got 1 question answered by the person who was not asked the question. I am asking someone else but i suppose you give a good answer.

IMO thats a weird law. First you go in bomb people, kill their people. then you take care or them?

I hear alot about the war in the Middle East a way to control Oil? Have they got any control of oil or any sort of gain other then killing htem terrorist?

Who are they also after? The people who are responsible are all dead. (According to the official story) and only Osama remains? Is there proof of more remeber of his extremist group?

i will ask a few more question when i get my other questions answered. Seems that no one has answered them yet but they jump right on my nuts and say I am a CT and such when i ask questions and defend a theory.

I also defend black people against racism that make me black? The law defends criminals, treats them with respect is the law also a criminal?

For people who have figured it all out it seems you have as many hole as the CT.

Awaiting responses to allmy questions, should take another week?

Mac

You have also said Osama is responsible...

http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/terrorists/terbinladen.htm

Is this link wrong? It says nothing about the Sept 11th attacks. It does say it abut the 7/7 bombings?

Is this page not updated? Is the FBI just to lazy? Why does it not say anything about 9/11?

You said the official story is fact then why is this guy not suspect fort the murder of 3,000 people as you say he is?

I hope it is a fact because the lucky solider who finds him will get 25 million.

LightinDarkness

20th July 2009, 05:22 AM

You have also said Osama is responsible...

http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/terrorists/terbinladen.htm

Is this link wrong? It says nothing about the Sept 11th attacks. It does say it abut the 7/7 bombings?

Is this page not updated? Is the FBI just to lazy? Why does it not say anything about 9/11?

You said the official story is fact then why is this guy not suspect fort the murder of 3,000 people as you say he is?

I hope it is a fact because the lucky solider who finds him will get 25 million.

Oh man, is this all you've got? Is this the sad state of twoofer logic? Lets think about this - if the Federal Government conspired to fake terrorist attacks and blame it on Bin Laden, they are willing to lie and engage in a massive cover up but not willing to continue with the cover up in a most wanted listing? Another stunning example of twooferism.

This thing has been debunked for years:
http://www.debunk911myths.org/topics/Bin_Laden%27s_FBI_Ten_Most_Wanted_poster

LightinDarkness

20th July 2009, 05:33 AM

These guy seem to answer one question and ignore the rest, provide no evidence. Then they go on and say "we are laughign at you idoits for questioing this while we do not provide the proof"

i just want answers to all questions. I got 1 question answered by the person who was not asked the question. I am asking someone else but i suppose you give a good answer.

IMO thats a weird law. First you go in bomb people, kill their people. then you take care or them?

I hear alot about the war in the Middle East a way to control Oil? Have they got any control of oil or any sort of gain other then killing htem terrorist?

Who are they also after? The people who are responsible are all dead. (According to the official story) and only Osama remains? Is there proof of more remeber of his extremist group?

i will ask a few more question when i get my other questions answered. Seems that no one has answered them yet but they jump right on my nuts and say I am a CT and such when i ask questions and defend a theory.

I also defend black people against racism that make me black? The law defends criminals, treats them with respect is the law also a criminal?

For people who have figured it all out it seems you have as many hole as the CT.

Awaiting responses to allmy questions, should take another week?

Mac

All of your questions have been responded to - the fact that you do not like the responses does not change the fact that they have all been answered. Your political opinions, and mine, are irrelevant to the facts that 9/11 was a terrorist attack that occurred due a plot by Islamic extremists.

A war for oil probably the most laughable claim I've heard from twoofers. There are many other ways to get oil if that was the goal, and all of them would be cheaper and result in the United States getting more oil than we have before. Iraq's oil pipeline continues to sell the bulk of its oil to other countries, and the United States gets no more oil from it than it did before.\

You've been exposed for who you are Mac. No amount of you trying to continue the facade is going to convince anyone. By the way, glad to see you are aligning yourself with JREF's CTer in residence. Putting yourself in good company with the people you claim to be against. :rolleyes:

Gaspode

22nd July 2009, 08:28 AM

Some posts moved to AAH (http://forums.randi.org/forumdisplay.php?f=58).

Be mindful of rule 12. Attack the argument, not the arguer.

CptColumbo

22nd July 2009, 02:57 PM

Back on the topic of the thread. I find three reasons that CTs will last.

1. Cognitive Dissonance.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance
Cognitive dissonance is an uncomfortable feeling caused by holding two contradictory ideas simultaneously. The "ideas" or "cognitions" in question may include attitudes and beliefs, and also the awareness of one's behavior. The theory of cognitive dissonance proposes that people have a motivational drive to reduce dissonance by changing their attitudes, beliefs, and behaviors, or by justifying or rationalizing their attitudes, beliefs, and behaviors.[1] Cognitive dissonance theory is one of the most influential and extensively studied theories in social psychology.

2. Source Amnesia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Source_amnesia
Source amnesia is an explicit memory disorder in which someone can recall certain information, but not where or how it was obtained.

3. Confirmation Bias.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias
In psychology and cognitive science, confirmation bias is a tendency to search for or interpret new information in a way that confirms one's preconceptions and to irrationally avoid information and interpretations which contradict prior beliefs.

Mac53

23rd July 2009, 05:47 PM

Back on the topic of the thread. I find three reasons that CTs will last.

1. Cognitive Dissonance.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance

2. Source Amnesia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Source_amnesia

3. Confirmation Bias.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

agreed... i think CT is basically ignites itself by begin a faith based thing and then adding to it. So let's say you start with 9/11 is an "inside job" and just simply believe it because of what a video says or it looks plausible without evidence. Then you move on to other parts of CT and see to be "connecting dots" but really are just searching for the dots that will connect.

When any human want to search for a way they will, whe nthere is a must that person will find a way even if it aint right.

I posted a natural news article on vaccines i think, and what is interesting ot knwo is the owner (Kevin Trudeau) Which has been repeatidly been involed in scams and jail time and keep finding new ways ot out run the law. His latest is the natural news site (subscription would make you cry lots of $) as well as his natural cures which in his infomercials (banned from t.v and radio now) have said to cure all the illness like cancer and such.

People want to believe that cancer can be cured without the drugs and maybe it can. (I am not sure)

The point here is people search for reasons to believe. They want ot belive there is a NWO because then they have someone to fight against. Not to mention blame the worlds problems on those evils guys who have interbreed whit reptiles and have bloodlines.

Maybe some CT should be called conspiracy belief.