The WOO WOO in all of us !

[Aussie Thinker]

Last night at some stage during that sort of half awake half asleep stage I was contemplating death and its finality.

I suddenly had a horrible sensation (like your heart coming up onto your throat) about having to die and be finished with. Its hard to describe but for a moment the thought of death and no continuance was almost overwhelmingly abhorrent.

It was sobering to realise that the little bit of woo woo that resides in all of us tries to assert itself even in the most sceptical of sceptics !

How strong is that woo woo part of us. It sure cannot be underestimated.

In spite of all I know a part of me REALLY wanted to BELIEVE…

It’s time like this I sort of envy the self-deluded ones that happily think their existence will continue… But .. ah well.. it is pointless to fight reality.

Has any one else ever had the woo woo in them try and come out ??

[Yahweh]

Originally posted by Aussie Thinker
Has any one else ever had the woo woo in them try and come out ??
The Yahweh from 6 months ago used to be completely nuts, he's fine now...

[PinkRabbit]

I don't believe in ghosts...but...my livingroom is haunted.

Yes, I know that makes no sense, and I don't exactly mean it literally, but there is something damned weird about the room. If I go in there at night (it's separated from the rest of the house by lockable doors to keep the cats out), my skin crawls, my hair stands on end, and I can't get out fast enough. I realize it's completely illogical, but it's a physical response and I've yet to successfully ward it off. And strangely enough, I've had quite a few others tell me they had the same response (without my telling them anything). Even the cats don't like to get in there at night (they're forever trying to get through the doors locking them out), and if they get caught in there at night, will wail to be rescued (which they never do during the day).

Could just be that it's very large and doesn't have a permanent light fixture, so you can't easily turn on a light as you're entering, and it's a big room with a lot of dark corners. Could be something else. I don't know.

Yes, I know I probably sound like a total weenie.

Barb

[Darat]

Originally posted by PinkRabbit
I don't believe in ghosts...but...my livingroom is haunted.

Yes, I know that makes no sense, and I don't exactly mean it literally, but there is something damned weird about the room. If I go in there at night (it's separated from the rest of the house by lockable doors to keep the cats out), my skin crawls, my hair stands on end, and I can't get out fast enough. ...snip...

Barb

Interestingly there was an article in New Scientist a while ago that:

http://archive.newscientist.com/secure/article/article.jsp?rp=1&id=mg17924055.400 (You can get a free 7 day subscription.)

...snip...

For the record, Wiseman doesn't believe in ghosts. But he is sure that the sensations felt by people who have ghostly encounters - fear, oppression and even nausea - result from a heady blend of psychology, hard-wired fear of dangerous situations and weird environmental effects such as subtle air movements. Combine these with preconceptions about ghosts soaked up from all those Hollywood horrors, and beliefs about the supernatural, and you have a potent mix that can unleash the weirdest feelings.

Earlier this year, Wiseman and his team produced peer-reviewed scientific evidence to back their hunch, published in the British Journal of Psychology (vol 94, p 195). They recorded the experiences of hundreds of volunteers visiting two of the UK's most "haunted" spots. One was Hampton Court, the palace near London reputedly haunted by the screaming ghost of Catherine Howard, Henry VIII's fifth wife. The other was the South Bridge Vaults, a labyrinth of claustrophobic chambers and creepy corridors beneath a Victorian bridge in Edinburgh.

Beforehand, Wiseman's team surveyed the two sites, recording environmental phenomena such as air temperatures and currents, magnetic fields and lighting levels. Then they asked visitors to report exactly where they felt or saw anything strange. To their astonishment, they found that people's most spooky experiences were often in the precise spots reputed to be haunted. And these same spots were often those with subtle but unusual draughts, air currents, temperature variations or even small fluctuations in the background electromagnetic fields. This provided Wiseman with a more earthly explanation for what some folk feel. "We showed people had odd experiences in the same places, and now we know they're based on environmental factors," says Wiseman. He also found that it didn't matter whether volunteers knew beforehand where the most haunted spots were located, disproving the idea that the experiences relied solely on prior knowledge.

...snip...


Could be your room is a spooky room after all, just not a haunted room.

[Zero]

I think all the traffic lights are out to get me...does that count?

[sackett]

fear of death? Show me a mammal that doesn't fight or flee when faced with a deadly threat. Fear of the dark? Sounds sensible to me: there used to be leopards in the African dark, and now there might be -- much scarier -- a HUMAN! hiding in the shadows.

Woowoo is when Bigfoot channels the spirit of Shirley MacLaine via Project Mogul radiations, as the black helicopters infiltrate your aromatherapy cabinet.

[Keneke]

Well, thay may be, but the creation of an afterlife in response to fear of death is tied in. The fear itself is not...just how we react to it.


edit: Seems I am agreeing with sackett.

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

It's difficult not to think about the finality of death. You go to bed one evening and simply never become conscious again. Disconcerting, to say the least.

~~ Paul

[Disbeliever]

Fear of death is nothing to be ashamed of, especially if you don't believe in the afterlife, because we always fear what we cannot comprhehend. And what's any more incomprehensible than nonexistence?

[Babylon Sister]

Occasionally the finality of death crosses my mind and to be honest, it scares the bejabbers out of me. It's times like this that I really wish there was/hope there is something more. I'm pretty sure there isn't, but sometimes I wish.....I knew.

[Keziah Mason]

Nonexistance didn't bother me one bit before I was born. Why should it bother me after I die?

My concerns are with the last moments of life just before death occurs. I surely hope they won't be too horribly unpleasant. I also hope that they are a long, long ways away :)

[c4ts]

I sort of understand Pillory, which means I must be telepathic.

[jayrev]

Not me. I think Woo Woo beliefs are bad luck.

[tim]

Originally posted by Keziah Mason
Nonexistance didn't bother me one bit before I was born. Why should it bother me after I die?

My concerns are with the last moments of life just before death occurs. I surely hope they won't be too horribly unpleasant. I also hope that they are a long, long ways away :)

I'm pretty much with Keziah on this one. I'm not afraid of the cessation of my existance, but I've seen people die, some of them in unpleasant ways (as if there's a pleasant way?) and I fear the pain that might be involved in my death rather than the death itself.

[tim]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Keziah Mason

Hmmm. I thought I'd heard that name before...............

"In October 1692 the trails was over and all coven members were sent to the gaols - except for Keziah Mason who somehow escaped her imprisonment. This later on led to rumour that Keziah Mason had revived the Arkham Coven."

Still on the run, then? :D :D :D

[Aussie Thinker]

Thanks for the responses guys…

I guess I wasn’t really referring to a fear of death (as someone said that is natural for any creature)… I was referring to a fear of finality and how it creates woo woos.(subtle difference ???)

I guess I was trying to be understanding of woo woo behaviour in that even I (great sceptic that I am.. cough cough ..lol) have felt the touch of the woo woo on my brain !

It showed me that woo woo behaviour is probably natural for humans and perhaps I should temper the short shrift generally give them.

[PinkRabbit]

Originally posted by Darat


Interestingly there was an article in New Scientist a while ago that:



Could be your room is a spooky room after all, just not a haunted room.

Actually, that makes considerable sense to me. Like I said, I don't really believe it's haunted when I think about it rationally, and yet there's a very primal response when you can't control your fear in a space you logically know is completely safe. It would make sense to me that there are subtle cues that one picks up in some spaces without really being aware of it that trigger certain fears or instincts. In turn, not knowing why you're scared, you term it a ghost since there's nothing real to be frightened of.

Makes sense.

And I'm still avoiding going in there at night if humanly possible.

Barb

[Clancie]

Aussie Thinker,

I lived 30 years convinced that "dead is dead".

It might all change back tomorrow, but for now, I have to admit that living with the doubt I've developed about this the past two years -does- feel better.

[TLN]

Originally posted by Aussie Thinker
I suddenly had a horrible sensation (like your heart coming up onto your throat) about having to die and be finished with. Its hard to describe but for a moment the thought of death and no continuance was almost overwhelmingly abhorrent.

This happens to me about once a week costing me a few hours sleep. Being a skeptic sucks sometimes.

[Interesting Ian]

Originally posted by TLN


This happens to me about once a week costing me a few hours sleep. Being a skeptic sucks sometimes.

Never mind :(

[TLN]

Originally posted by Interesting Ian
Never mind :(

Good idea...

[athon]

It makes perfect sense that we would be affected in such ways. Think about it - the way our brains work is not logical, it is not rational. Emotion affects us all regardless of our cognitive abilities. It is indeed something we have to be aware of to perceive something close to objective reality.

Besides, I've seen enough Scooby Doo to know that ghosts are little more than wax paper and chewing gum.

Athon

[Mike D.]

Originally posted by Aussie Thinker
Last night at some stage during that sort of half awake half asleep stage I was contemplating death and its finality.


Some of us believe that (1) death is final, and others of us believe that (2) we live on in some form after death. Only one of these positions is true. Interesting that the only way we will know whether we are right or wrong about this is if the second position turns out to be true. Then those who believed in life after death would know they were right, and those who didn't believe in life after death would know they were wrong. If the first position turns out to be true, none of us will know whether or not we were right or wrong, because we will no longer exist. Those who believed in life after death will not know that they were wrong, and those who believed in the finality of death will not know that they were right.

[Aussie Thinker]

Mike D,

Some of us believe that (1) death is final, and others of us believe that (2) we live on in some form after death. Only one of these positions is true. Interesting that the only way we will know whether we are right or wrong about this is if the second position turns out to be true. Then those who believed in life after death would know they were right, and those who didn't believe in life after death would know they were wrong. If the first position turns out to be true, none of us will know whether or not we were right or wrong, because we will no longer exist. Those who believed in life after death will not know that they were wrong, and those who believed in the finality of death will not know that they were right.

I used to be sorta pissed about that one.. KNOWING I could only ever be proven WRONG !.. But.. think about it a bit more.

If meaningful Life after Death was possible it seems to me HIGHLY likely and at the very least PROBABLE that we would have found out by now. As we have NEVER had even an inkling of real evidence for life after death it is safe to assume it does not exist.

Sad but true.. so I already KNOW I am right in the above conundrum (Well I know as well as you can know anything)..

Now the little woo woo inside me screams… “but just maybe….”

“Shut up little woo woo you know I don’t listen to you !”

[Interesting Ian]

Originally posted by Aussie Thinker
Mike D,



I used to be sorta pissed about that one.. KNOWING I could only ever be proven WRONG !.. But.. think about it a bit more.

If meaningful Life after Death was possible it seems to me HIGHLY likely and at the very least PROBABLE that we would have found out by now.



At least very probably that we should have incontrovertible proof? How do you manage to work that out?? It doesn't seem to me that we should at all! Why should one have incontrovertible proof of a non-physical reality? How would such proof be obtained?




As we have NEVER had even an inkling of real evidence for life after death it is safe to assume it does not exist.



You need to do your homework. There is a huge amount of indirect evidence for survival.



Sad but true.. so I already KNOW I am right in the above conundrum (Well I know as well as you can know anything)..



I can't say you're definitely not right, but I'd be very surprised. Anyway, regardless of who is right or wrong, it doesn't effect the arguments. That is to say that even if it transpired that there is no "life after death", it doesn't alter the fact that it is more reasonable to believe in it.

[Mr Sensible]

Originally posted by Aussie Thinker
Last night at some stage during that sort of half awake half asleep stage I was contemplating death and its finality.

I suddenly had a horrible sensation (like your heart coming up onto your throat) about having to die and be finished with. Its hard to describe but for a moment the thought of death and no continuance was almost overwhelmingly abhorrent.

It was sobering to realise that the little bit of woo woo that resides in all of us tries to assert itself even in the most sceptical of sceptics !

How strong is that woo woo part of us. It sure cannot be underestimated.

In spite of all I know a part of me REALLY wanted to BELIEVE…

It’s time like this I sort of envy the self-deluded ones that happily think their existence will continue… But .. ah well.. it is pointless to fight reality.

Has any one else ever had the woo woo in them try and come out ??

Your life has no more meaning than the wasp you squished last summer.

Deal with it.

[Interesting Ian]

Originally posted by Aussie Thinker
Last night at some stage during that sort of half awake half asleep stage I was contemplating death and its finality.

I suddenly had a horrible sensation (like your heart coming up onto your throat) about having to die and be finished with. Its hard to describe but for a moment the thought of death and no continuance was almost overwhelmingly abhorrent.



Yes indeed. Imagine yourself at the moment of your death. Imagine the last despairing flicker of consciousness and the cold icy realization that in a few seconds you will cease to exist forevermore, for the whole of eternity. To realize that everything you have ever experienced, everything you have ever achieved, everything you have ever done, means absolutely nothing in the grand scheme of things. That nothing that anyone has ever done means anything in the grand scheme of things. How do ya like that AussieThinker! :D LOL

Cheer up. I don't reckon I can make you reconsider your position, but consider this. Your beliefs are that your non-existence was eternal before you were born, and your non-existence will be eternal after you are dead. But you are in absolutely no worse position after you are dead than before you were born! In fact just consider how incredibly fortuitous and unlikely that you were ever born at all. If you had never existed at all would this somehow be something to be regretted? Well no, because there would be no you! It could not be something to be regretted anymore than any other potential human being that could have been born, if a certain 2 specific people had met up, and a certain sperm had reached a certain egg, could regret being born! In other words there would be no *I* which could regret anything. As it is you have been bestowed the gift of life. And besides, your death is something you will never actually experience. Either you are alive or dead. When you are alive, you're not dead, so the awful chasm of nothingness should not perturb you there. When you are dead, well then there is no *I* to be perturbed! :)

[Keziah Mason]

To realize that everything you have ever experienced, everything you have ever achieved, everything you have ever done, means absolutely nothing in the grand scheme of things. That nothing that anyone has ever done means anything in the grand scheme of things. How do ya like that AussieThinker!

I'm not AussieThinker but that scenario, which I think is by far the most likely, is one that causes me no concern or grief at all. My life has a meaning to me and I care not about the lack of meaning my life has in the 'grand scheme' - not that I believe in any sort of grand scheme anyway. Humans are of no more importance in the universe than the various small scuttling creatures on the ocean floor who eat detritus and hide from the light.

And I'm just fine with that.


Hmmm. I thought I'd heard that name before...............

"In October 1692 the trails was over and all coven members were sent to the gaols - except for Keziah Mason who somehow escaped her imprisonment. This later on led to rumour that Keziah Mason had revived the Arkham Coven."

Still on the run, then?

Yeah, I had to duck into some higher order dimensions for a while. It's ridiculous - you sacrifice a few babies to Nyarlathotep and people suddenly get all unreasonable.

[SquishyDave]

Originally posted by Aussie Thinker
I used to be sorta pissed about that one.. KNOWING I could only ever be proven WRONG !.. But.. think about it a bit more.

If meaningful Life after Death was possible it seems to me HIGHLY likely and at the very least PROBABLE that we would have found out by now. As we have NEVER had even an inkling of real evidence for life after death it is safe to assume it does not exist.

Sad but true.. so I already KNOW I am right in the above conundrum (Well I know as well as you can know anything)..

Now the little woo woo inside me screams… “but just maybe….”

“Shut up little woo woo you know I don’t listen to you !” I'm with ya, sleepeless nights sometimes, and the unfairness of it all, why should anyone have to die? Stupid universe.

Sometimes I can feel my life slipping away, I can feel each second bringing me closer to the void, closer to utter oblivion, a state in which I will never learn anything new ever again, but at least I won't know I'm not learning anything new.

Most of the time however, life is good and I enjoy it.

[Mike D.]

Originally posted by Interesting Ian


Yes indeed. Imagine yourself at the moment of your death. Imagine the last despairing flicker of consciousness and the cold icy realization that in a few seconds you will cease to exist forevermore, for the whole of eternity.

Well put, Ian. Of course he might turn out to be part of that percentage of the population who has a Near Death Experience. The "cold icy realization" is superceded by a sense that he's hovering, looking down at his body. Then he enters the tunnel and floats toward a brilliant white light at the end. As he gets closer to the light, he sees departed friends and relatives waiting to greet him. Finally, as he enters the light and is about to joyfully reunite with these loved ones, this whole hallucination of a dying brain--this last cosmic bedtime story--begins to flicker and fade, abruptly followed by the endless nothingness of non-existence.

[UnrepentantSinner]

Originally posted by Disbeliever
Fear of death is nothing to be ashamed of, especially if you don't believe in the afterlife, because we always fear what we cannot comprhehend. And what's any more incomprehensible than nonexistence?

How strange, I find the thought of existing forever to me not only more incomprehensible than nonexistance, but actually quite terrifying.

The woo woo in me comes out when I start thinking of the eternal past or future or what's "outside" the Universe or such things. Invariably go into a terminal loop (as I am while typing this) and need to stop and put my mind on something else. Women's breasts usually does the trick.

Darat posted:
Could be your room is a spooky room after all, just not a haunted room.

There are a few buildings at my workplace that have been unoccupied for over a year and I get the chills whenever I walk through them. One in particular is spooky because the foundation was built on very loose soil and the building settles constantly. I used to have the same problem with our house in Michigan. It's not much more comforting however to think, "that's not a ghost, that's the building slowly collapsing."

[epepke]

Originally posted by Aussie Thinker
Last night at some stage during that sort of half awake half asleep stage I was contemplating death and its finality.

I suddenly had a horrible sensation (like your heart coming up onto your throat) about having to die and be finished with. Its hard to describe but for a moment the thought of death and no continuance was almost overwhelmingly abhorrent.


While I admit the possibility that I may be a woo-woo in other ways, I do not have a chronic fear of death.

The idea of death doesn't wake me up screaming in the middle of the night. I can deal with the idea of ceasing to exist. It doesn't bother me. Really.

What bothers me not having lived. Since that is a near-certainty, I choose to avoid thinking about it much.

I have contributed to maybe a dozen minor scientific discoveries in my life. Big whoop.

I wrote a textbook chapter, which maybe was used in some courses. Again, big whoop.

The chances are vanishingly small that there ever will be children with my DNA.

I've written some visualization software that did some good things and influences some other software, but it all came to naught, because Microsoft is going to write everything, and you'll like it whether you want to or not. Big fat hairy whoop.

I've influenced some people, but probably most of them are going to be nugatory. Big whoop.

Because of me, a couple of dogs are alive that wouldn't be. Big whoop.

That's what wakes me up in the middle of the night or gives me terrible dreams. But, since I haven't succeeded in doing much about it, I might as well try to avoid thinking about it.

The idea of god, for me, doesn't hold much hope. Spending eternity with someone who thinks it's fun to dash babies against the rocks isn't my idea of a good time.

[dmarker]

Originally posted by Interesting Ian


Yes indeed. Imagine yourself at the moment of your death. Imagine the last despairing flicker of consciousness and the cold icy realization that in a few seconds you will cease to exist forevermore, for the whole of eternity. To realize that everything you have ever experienced, everything you have ever achieved, everything you have ever done, means absolutely nothing in the grand scheme of things. That nothing that anyone has ever done means anything in the grand scheme of things. How do ya like that AussieThinker! :D LOL




Imagine living for eternity, eventually you would want to die from the sheer ennui of eternal life.

I'll take finite, but interesting, existence, thank you.

[epepke]

Originally posted by dmarker
Imagine living for eternity, eventually you would want to die from the sheer ennui of eternal life.

Would Interesting Ian ever feel ennui?

It seems to me that he's been happy with an essentially static mind for quite some time.

[Interesting Ian]

Originally posted by Mike D.
Originally posted by Interesting Ian


Yes indeed. Imagine yourself at the moment of your death. Imagine the last despairing flicker of consciousness and the cold icy realization that in a few seconds you will cease to exist forevermore, for the whole of eternity.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Well put, Ian. Of course he might turn out to be part of that percentage of the population who has a Near Death Experience. The "cold icy realization" is superceded by a sense that he's hovering, looking down at his body. Then he enters the tunnel and floats toward a brilliant white light at the end. As he gets closer to the light, he sees departed friends and relatives waiting to greet him. Finally, as he enters the light and is about to joyfully reunite with these loved ones, this whole hallucination of a dying brain--this last cosmic bedtime story--begins to flicker and fade, abruptly followed by the endless nothingness of non-existence.

It is conceivable that everyone has an NDE as they approach death, but that a lot of people simply do not recollect them. We know this happens sometimes.

But you raise an interesting point which I've thought about myself. The NDE has been described as "hyper-reality". NDE'ers report that they feel more conscious than they have ever felt during their lives. So what happens at the precise moment of death? Perhaps you're telepathically communicating with a "being of light" and, as you suggest, you find your consciousness fading?? :eek: I mean just imagine it. You reach an understanding of the purpose of your existence and the meaning of the Universe, the being of light is telepathically communicating with you, then s/he starts to fade away. Perhaps the last thing you telepathically receive from this being is something like "you stupid woo woo! Did you really think this was all for real! You don't live in fairyland you stupid sap Ha Ha Ha Ha!", and this is the last thing you hear as your consciousness dwindles to zero for the whole of eternity! :eek:

Or maybe you're there communicating with the "being of light", more conscious then you have ever been, reach an apparent understanding of your existence and the Universe, then your consciousness just switches off like a light? :confused:

OK you skeptics out there. Which scenario will take place?

[Interesting Ian]

Originally posted by dmarker
Yes indeed. Imagine yourself at the moment of your death. Imagine the last despairing flicker of consciousness and the cold icy realization that in a few seconds you will cease to exist forevermore, for the whole of eternity. To realize that everything you have ever experienced, everything you have ever achieved, everything you have ever done, means absolutely nothing in the grand scheme of things. That nothing that anyone has ever done means anything in the grand scheme of things. How do ya like that AussieThinker! LOL


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




Imagine living for eternity, eventually you would want to die from the sheer ennui of eternal life.

I'll take finite, but interesting, existence, thank you.

We can't imagine it. I get the impression you're thinking of eternal existence as an infinite duration of time. I find this philosophically highly questionable, and besides, it's at odds with the evidence from people such as NDE'ers who report that existence in the afterlife is of a timeless nature.

And might I just say you're really in no position to say an afterlife is undesirable if you have no idea of the nature and characteristics of this existence! Maybe you'll be in a state of maximum logically possible happiness . . .ummmm . . but you would prefer to cease to exist for the whole of eternity.

You know, I really do despair sometimes

{shakes head sadly}

[Interesting Ian]

Originally posted by epepke
[B]

While I admit the possibility that I may be a woo-woo in other ways, I do not have a chronic fear of death.

The idea of death doesn't wake me up screaming in the middle of the night. I can deal with the idea of ceasing to exist. It doesn't bother me. Really.

What bothers me not having lived. Since that is a near-certainty, I choose to avoid thinking about it much.

I have contributed to maybe a dozen minor scientific discoveries in my life. Big whoop.

I wrote a textbook chapter, which maybe was used in some courses. Again, big whoop.

The chances are vanishingly small that there ever will be children with my DNA.

I've written some visualization software that did some good things and influences some other software, but it all came to naught, because Microsoft is going to write everything, and you'll like it whether you want to or not. Big fat hairy whoop.

I've influenced some people, but probably most of them are going to be nugatory. Big whoop.

Because of me, a couple of dogs are alive that wouldn't be. Big whoop.

That's what wakes me up in the middle of the night or gives me terrible dreams. But, since I haven't succeeded in doing much about it, I might as well try to avoid thinking about it.


I think the couple of dogs might give a slightly bigger whoop then you're inclined to. Have you ever thought that something as apparently as inconsequential as a smile at a stranger, is vastly more important in the grand scheme of things than the trivial things which are typically deemed as making a "success" of your life?? That smile is likely to make someone feel better about herself. This communicates itself to other people. The influence could be without limit effecting eventually everyone throughout the world.




The idea of god, for me, doesn't hold much hope. Spending eternity with someone who thinks it's fun to dash babies against the rocks isn't my idea of a good time.

You really need to sort out your ideas of what "god" means.

[dmarker]

Originally posted by Interesting Ian


We can't imagine it. I get the impression you're thinking of eternal existence as an infinite duration of time. I find this philosophically highly questionable, and besides, it's at odds with the evidence from people such as NDE'ers who report that existence in the afterlife is of a timeless nature.

And might I just say you're really in no position to say an afterlife is undesirable if you have no idea of the nature and characteristics of this existence! Maybe you'll be in a state of maximum logically possible happiness . . .ummmm . . but you would prefer to cease to exist for the whole of eternity.

You know, I really do despair sometimes

{shakes head sadly}

But how do you know what the afterlife, if there is one, will be like? Are we to depend on the testimony of people who have been through the trauma of a near death experience? Besides how do we know that the same "timeless" nature isn't just something present at the beginning and doesn't last? After all "timeless" nature in this world doesn't last either.