Language Wars: Prepositions at the End of a Sentence

[Mr Manifesto]

This is from Fowler's Modern English Usage. If you don't know what Fowler's is, you have absolutely no right to comment on the English language whatsoever.

Prepositions at end (a) History of attitudes.
One of the most persistent myths about propositions in English is that they properly belong before the word or words they govern and should not be placed at the end of a clause or sentence. Apparently Dryden (probably John Dryden- MM) set the myth going. In his Defence of the Epilogue (1672) he cited a line from Ben Johnson's Catiline (1611), The bodies that those souls were frightened from, and commented, "The Preposition in the end of the sentence; a common fault with him, and which I have but lately observ'd in my own writings.' At some later date, it is believed, Dryden made a partial attempt to remove end-placed prepositions from his other prose works (quelle ironie -MM).
(big snip- mainly on the history of prepositions at the end of a sentence. Even Shakespeare did it.)
3Final Verdict. In most circumstances, esp in formal writing, it is desirable to avoid placing a preposition at the end of a clause or sentence, where it has the appearance of being stranded. But there are many circumstances in which a preposition may or even must be placed late, and others where the degree of formality required governs the placing, When formality is desired, of which I have already heard, for example, as Anita Brookner wrote, has the advantage over which I had already heard of.

I believe this, for the educated, supports the case that (s)he who would correct one on the use of prepositions on an online bulletin board is but a pedantic twat ('twat' in the sense of a ridiculous person, rhyming with 'cat', rather than the other version which hints at the female genitalia and is rhymed with 'swat').






Fowler's Modern English Usage, ed: R W Burchfield, Oxford University Press, 1996

[HarryKeogh]

great, now i have to look up "preposition" in one of those books that has a whole bunch of definitions and stuff.

[Mr Manifesto]

It's 'before a position', duuuh!

So, if you're playing baseball, and your manager tells you to go from short-stop to first base, you're current position is first base, but your preposition was short stop.

Get an education.

[American]

Now you'll tell us that the passive voice is sometimes acceptable. :rolleyes:

[Mr Manifesto]

Originally posted by American
Now you'll tell us that the passive voice is sometimes acceptable.

I have no doubt that you are a big Ernest Hemingway fan -or at least, you would be if you read- however not everyone thinks the passive voice is always a bad thing. Better writers than you'll ever be use it- the only example immediately coming to mind is Stephen Fry, but there are others.

Oh... wait... You don't think the passive voice is bad because you're a Hemingway fan, do you? You think it's bad because that's what your grammar-checker tells you. Why don't you formulate your own thoughts one day? Y'know, just for a change of pace.

If you do happen to be a fan of Hemingway, please, check out the way he did, and soon.

[HarryKeogh]

Originally posted by Mr Manifesto
It's 'before a position', duuuh!

So, if you're playing baseball, and your manager tells you to go from short-stop to first base, you're current position is first base, but your preposition was short stop.

Get an education.

someone needs a hug:rub:

[Mr Manifesto]

Originally posted by HarryKeogh


someone needs a hug

Aw, c'mon, you knew I was joking. Right? I mean, the rules of English grammar have almost nothing to do with baseball!

[American]

Originally posted by Mr Manifesto

Oh... wait... You don't think the passive voice is bad because you're a Hemingway fan, do you? You think it's bad because that's what your grammar-checker tells you. Why don't you formulate your own thoughts one day? Y'know, just for a change of pace.

If you do happen to be a fan of Hemingway, please, check out the way he did, and soon.


That reminds me of my ol' teacher who claimed that "analogy" and "metaphor" could be the same, despite not using "like" or "as". Coincidentally, he was a big Hemingway scholar (he even won a grant to study him).

I didn't pay attention in class, and today I am a clown who hides safely behind my screen throwing philisophical grenades at the world.

[Mr Manifesto]

Originally posted by American



That reminds me of my ol' teacher who claimed that "analogy" and "metaphor" could be the same, despite not using "like" or "as". Coincidentally, he was a big Hemingway scholar (he even won a grant to study him).

I didn't pay attention in class, and today I am a clown who hides safely behind my screen throwing philisophical grenades at the world.

You got the bit about being a clown right... as well as hiding safely behind your screen... but 'philisophical hand grenades'? Your drivel doesn't even qualify as a spitball.

[Dorian Gray]

You should avoid similes like the plague.
Cliches have been ridden hard and put away wet.
Bad analogies are like a broken singing fish in Denmark.

[The Don]

Dangling prepositions are something up with which I am unprepared to put ;)

[Tricky]

Originally posted by The Don
Dangling prepositions are something up with which I am unprepared to put ;)
Yeah! What did you bring this subject that I didn't wan't to be preached to about up for?

[LFTKBS]

Originally posted by American



That reminds me of my ol' teacher who claimed that "analogy" and "metaphor" could be the same, despite not using "like" or "as". Coincidentally, he was a big Hemingway scholar (he even won a grant to study him).

I didn't pay attention in class, and today I am a clown who hides safely behind my screen throwing philisophical grenades at the world.

What? It's similies that use "like" or "as."

[BillyTK]

Originally posted by American
That reminds me of my ol' teacher who claimed that "analogy" and "metaphor" could be the same, despite not using "like" or "as". Coincidentally, he was a big Hemingway scholar (he even won a grant to study him).

I didn't pay attention in class, and today I am a clown who hides safely behind my screen throwing philisophical grenades at the world.
A metaphor doesn't necessarily have to have any explanatory value, whereas that is a defining quality of an analogy. As LFTKBS pointed out, use of "like" or "as" is pants all to do with it. Your closing sentence is a veritable motorway pile up of analogy and metaphor, and I would suggest that your philosophical grenades are as inneffective as a chocolate teapot.

[DrChinese]

Originally posted by Mr Manifesto
This is from Fowler's Modern English Usage. If you don't know what Fowler's is, you have absolutely no right to comment on the English language whatsoever.


Apparently, he knows of which he speaks.

[Skeptic]

If you don't know what Fowler's is, you have absolutely no right to comment on the English language whatsoever.

Why? Ignorance of a subject never stopped YOU from making cocksure claims about it before.

[Luke T.]

So where is this topic leading to? What's it all about? What did you start this mess for?

I valiantly tried to avoid ending my sentences with prepositions on here for quite a while. Then I realized, "Nobody talks like that any more!"

I still make a halfway effort. I have noticed my verbal language skills have deteriorated quite a bit over the years. My wife is constantly pointing them out and saying, "You are a technical writer! Don't you think your co-workers wonder what you are doing there?"

:D

[Nyarlathotep]

This reminds me of a joke.

A guy walks up to another guy on the street. THie first guy asks the second "Hey buddy, can you tell me where the bus stop is at?"

The Second guy says in a snotty tone, "Where I come from we do not end a sentence with a preposition."

THe first guy replies, "Oh, sorry. Can you tell me where the bus stop is at, you *********?"


Thak you, I'll be here all week...

[shanek]

"That is precisely the sort of pedantry up with which I will not put." —Winston Churchill

[Ladewig]

At the risk of being labeled a pedantic twit, I feel the need to ask why this thread is in "Politics, Current Events, and History" instead of "Education and Social Issues," "Literature and the Arts," "JREF Forum Community," or even "Flame War"?

[Mr Manifesto]

Originally posted by Ladewig
At the risk of being labeled a pedantic twit, I feel the need to ask why this thread is in "Politics, Current Events, and History" instead of "Education and Social Issues," "Literature and the Arts," "JREF Forum Community," or even "Flame War"?

I forgot to link it to the other thread in P, CE & H- there was a discussion on Iraq or something that turned into an argument about prepositions. Obviously it's a burning current issue that needs to be discussed.