The Status of 9-11 Conspiracy

[Scott Sommers]

I am a new member to this forum and not particularly involved in 9-11 Conspiracy debates. I live overseas and had never heard of a 9-11 Conspiracy theory until earlier this year, when a colleague told me about this. It's obviously utter nonsense, but it seemed to be such a significant claim, I felt compelled to come to some understanding of it.

The impression I'm left with is that the Truther Movement (or whatever you call it) is on its last leg. I doubt they'll disappear, but they are less and less able to generate interest among mainstream people who might have had sympathy for them. They are increasingly left with only highly committed whack-jobs who are willing to accept any claim.

But what do I know? I never even imagined such a thing could exist until a few months ago. Is this a correct perception of the situation?

[UNLoVedRebel]

This was its "peak" 3 years ago.
http://i625.photobucket.com/albums/tt332/JREFImages/howardscripps-1.jpg

[Brainster]

Certainly in the US the movement seems pretty dead; there has been a dramatic drop in the number of visitors to 9-11 "Truth" sites. And we see many of the big names going overseas to peddle their wares.

[UNLoVedRebel]

Daily Page Views

www.emo-corner.com: 15226
www.911truth.org: 6027

Source:
http://www.websiteoutlook.com/

[JoeyDonuts]

It's never going to completely go away. Conspiracy theories still abound regarding JFK, the moon landing, the Holocaust, and even the shape of the planet.

The 9/11 conspiracies are simply the latest lightning rod for people that choose to believe world events are dictated by shadowy elite figures behind the scenes. People like Alex Jones, Jim Fetzer, and David Ray Griffin know that a lot of folks would much rather believe something that reaffirms their paranoia or extreme anarchist or libertarian worldview, and they cash in on it.

As far as any legitimate voice or political movement with mainstream attention, they're finished. They exist in the same world as the other notorious conspiracy theories of our time, although they have a degree of media savvy that the others never had.

If you consider a barrage of inane and distorted YouTube videos "media savvy," that is.

[deep]

www.emo-corner.com: 15226
www.911truth.org: 6027


www.debunking911.com: 1894

[Scott Sommers]

I appreciate everyone's response. Perhaps I'm being naive here, but what does the post about emo-corner have to do with my question?

[Sam.I.Am]

I appreciate everyone's response. Perhaps I'm being naive here, but what does the post about emo-corner have to do with my question?

It shows how little internet traffic they get.

[UNLoVedRebel]

I appreciate everyone's response. Perhaps I'm being naive here, but what does the post about emo-corner have to do with my question?

I'm showing you that the emo counterculture is far more popular than the 9/11 denier counterculture. If you know anything about emo, that's not good for 9/11 deniers.

[UNLoVedRebel]

www.debunking911.com: 1894

Your point?

[Scott Sommers]

Thanks for clarifying that. This is not my territory, but I do appreciate the help.

[triforcharity]

Even Emo-Corner gets more hits than the 9/11 truth sites.

Deep,

You're a truther, admit it. You'll feel better.

[JoeyDonuts]

Your point?

This doesn't really show anything other than that the majority of people aren't interested in re-examining the story of September 11th. Ere go, they accept the findings of the 9/11 Commission report, NIST, etc. The low amount of traffic directed towards 9/11 denier websites shows the weakness of their argument in convincing people.

Look at this another way.

Most people wouldn't be going to 9/11 debunking sites unless they had first been exposed to 9/11 truth sites.

It's possible that a full third of the folks going to that particular 9/11 CT site are also visiting the 9/11 debunking sites. That's not really possible to prove without more accurate and targeted traffic metrics.

9/11 Debunking isn't a 'movement' pushing an agenda other than to try to be the "reality check" that folks swallowed up in conspiracy movements need. It's also a voice to counter the ridiculous and disrespectful assertions put forth by the 9/11 Truth Movement.

I'd like to see what happens when you pit any 9/11 Truth site up against any of the sites streaming adult content. I wouldn't advise anyone to post up any numbers from an experiment like this - I got actioned once when I referenced one such site by name in a post.

Just go to Alexa.com and compare 9/11 Truth with any p0rn site and you'll get a sense of where people's priorities are at.

[triforcharity]

I went there, and like, the top 50 sites were 99% porn!!! Heck, I think even midget lesbian horse porn gets more hits.

Anyway, its also mostly due to the fact that it is the same people, constantly going to the truther sites. That would be my guess. Dylan has alot of free time, so why not???

[JoeyDonuts]

Dylan has alot of free time, so why not???

I don't know what Dylan is up to nowadays, but I got the impression that somewhere along the way even he became convinced it's a bunch of hooey.

Hooey that he has a vested financial interest in, but hooey none the less.

[A W Smith]

Your point?


his point was after visiting truther sites a third of them go to debunking sites to get the stupid washed off. The other two thirds just ignore it and move on.

[JoeyDonuts]

his point was after visiting truther sites a third of them go to debunking sites to get the stupid washed off. The other two thirds just ignore it and move on.

In all fairness, there's no way to confirm this based on simple page views alone.

[Scott Sommers]

I'll tell you my impression on this.

Many of the TM sites have very large numbers of hits, but cites like Loose Change have been up on Youtube for years. A large number of these cites seem to have disabled their comments. I can only assume this is because they are no longer getting the comments they want. Cites that still accept comments no longer seem to be getting large numbers of supportive comments.

The complexity of the TM arguments has not developed. It appears to me they are still using the same arguments they used years ago. There's that school teacher fellow who made the video about WTC 7, but that's not really a significant step in complexity of thinking. The TM appears to be increasingly attractive repackaging of the same series of 'facts'. This is in contrast to the debunker community which has developed very complex critiques and responses to TM. This might be because the TM is wrong and they have run out of data, but hasn't never stopped theories of scientific racism, for example.

The major public figures associated with the TM very quickly either disappear (Charlie Sheen) or descend in kookdoom (Steven Jones, etc). While it appears there was a time when TM represented an alternative voice, now it just looks like academics and professionals with a whole series of other questionable beliefs.

And this brings me back to how I discovered about TM. Up until about February this year, I was blissfully unaware that any one doubted that Middle Eastern terrorists hijacked planes and crashed them into American political and military targets. I work primarily with Americans, but none of the ones I talk with ever brought up, even during the past election. since then, tqo of my colleagues have raised TM points around me. Both of them would be on social fringe of my workplace. In fact, since then, one of them has been fired for something completely unrelated to his belief in 9-11 Conspiracy.

[bill smith]

Thanks for clarifying that. This is not my territory, but I do appreciate the help.

See if this shifts your opinion any. If it does not does that have any meaning ? Will people be able to assess which way you will jump ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZ4dVo5QgYg Firemen's Testimony- Study

[Scott Sommers]

Honestly, I did not come here to have garbage thrown at me. What am I supposed to say? The video is more than 2 years old. The Internet is full of interviews with firemen and EMT personnel. One of those major reports has a whole website full of them. There must be more than a hundred of them, and I have read a lot of them.

No, it does not change my mind. There are some people with PhDs who support the TM. They are, as far as I can tell, without exception believers in other strange kind of ideas. This corresponds with my personal experience that only colleagues who are marginal in my workplace accept such thinking.

I did not come here to debate this.

No, it does not change my mind. It is garbage. Please go away.

[Scott Sommers]

I did a web search on Graeme MacQueen. He has not said much since 2007. I suspect this is the case because he has run out of things to say. I can not post URL links yet, but if you go to the website of the americanbuddhists (dot) net followed by
creativity-religious-impulse-interview-graeme-macqueen-buddhist-scholar-and-9-11-researcher
you find he admits perhaps even all firefighters accept that hijacked planes crashed into the WTC. He states that firefighters themselves are not interested in his ideas.

Ahhh...but he's so clever, he knows more than professional firefighters about what could have happened on 911.

Thanks for wasting my afternoon.

[bill smith]

Honestly, I did not come here to have garbage thrown at me. What am I supposed to say? The video is more than 2 years old. The Internet is full of interviews with firemen and EMT personnel. One of these major reports has a whole website full of them. There must be more than a hundred of them, and I have read a lot of them.

No, it does not change my mind. There are some people with PhDs who support the TM. They are, as far as I can tell, without exception believers in other strange kind of ideas. This corresponds with my personal experience that only colleagues who are marginal in my workplace accept such thinking.

I did not come here to debate this.

No, it does not change my mind. It is garbage. Please go away.

I just wanted to establish beyond doubt where you stood. Now that I have done that there is no reason for me to to stay. So see you around.

[Scott Sommers]

This is like an experience with an evangelical church. You had to make sure I had heard 'the word' just in case that research I said I had done had somehow missed it all? I have to say, I'm a little shocked at this.

All you've done is reinforce my opinion about what kind of people are involved 911 'truthing'. Whack-jobs on a UFO.

[JoeyDonuts]

Ah. Scott, meet bill smith. One of the last remaining candles burning for the 9/11 Truth Movement. Although to hear him tell it, it's an enormous firestorm that can't be stopped.

The fact is, the majority of visitors to THIS particular forum that were supportive of the 9/11 Truth Movement have either disappeared or have been banned. (Not for their beliefs, mind you. This forum is well moderated, and repeated breaches of civility guidelines aren't taken lightly. Folks from both sides of this hotbed issue have been banned from this forum due to this, but you'll find most of them have been either truthers or their subsequent sockpuppet accounts.)

There are a few holdouts still waving the same old arguments around, but you probably don't need more than two hands to count them.

Welcome to the forums, by the way. I hope you don't confine yourself to just this section. There's a lot of good discussion on a myriad of topics that take place here.

[UNLoVedRebel]

Honestly, I did not come here to have garbage thrown at me. What am I supposed to say? The video is more than 2 years old. The Internet is full of interviews with firemen and EMT personnel. One of these major reports has a whole website full of them. There must be more than a hundred of them, and I have read a lot of them.

No, it does not change my mind. There are some people with PhDs who support the TM. They are, as far as I can tell, without exception believers in other strange kind of ideas. This corresponds with my personal experience that only colleagues who are marginal in my workplace accept such thinking.

I did not come here to debate this.

No, it does not change my mind. It is garbage. Please go away.
Since you are new to this bizarre counterculture called "the 9/11 Truth Movement", I'll let you in on a little secret; they are all like bill smith. They were taken in by a YouTube video so they spam YouTube videos hoping everyone else will be taken in just like they were. They have fantasies of starting a revolution by spreading these "revelations" and they dream of riding off into the sunset a hero like in a *********** John Wayne movie.

[Scott Sommers]

Thanks. I appreciate the input from everyone. It's only taken me a couple of hours and almost no effort to confirm what I had suspected.

[R.Mackey]

This is like an experience with an evangelical church. You had to make sure I had heard 'the word' just in case that research I said I had done had somehow missed it all? I have to say, I'm a little shocked at this.

All you've done is reinforce my opinion about what kind of people are involved 911 'truthing'. Whack-jobs on a UFO.

Well spoken. Welcome to the JREF Forum.

[timhau]

Many of the TM sites have very large numbers of hits, but cites like Loose Change have been up on Youtube for years. A large number of these cites seem to have disabled their comments. I can only assume this is because they are no longer getting the comments they want.

Bullseye.

Truthers may rant and rave about freedom, but at least as far as the freedom of speech is concerned, theirs resembles the North Korean version -- you're free to praise Dear Leader as much as you want.

[eromitlab]

I did a web search on Graeme MacQueen. He has not said much since 2007. I suspect this is the case because he has run out of things to say.

Like that's ever stopped a truther from continuing to make the rounds. At least if the truther making the claim disappears, the claim will still be recycled by other truthers looking to sling links to their gospel at non-believers. And, in MacQueen's case, he'll continue to be listed on patriots question 9/11.

I think this is the article to which you were referring: http://americanbuddhist.net/node/3390
Typical recycled BS, starting with another typical truther favourite, the "a truther told me about it, I was skeptical and didn't believe it at first, he told me I needed to do my research, I did my research and found it really was an inside jobby job, so I decided to post about it on the internet rather than take any really drastic action" anecdote.

[bill smith]

Like that's ever stopped a truther from continuing to make the rounds. At least if the truther making the claim disappears, the claim will still be recycled by other truthers looking to sling links to their gospel at non-believers. And, in MacQueen's case, he'll continue to be listed on patriots question 9/11.

I think this is the article to which you were referring: http://americanbuddhist.net/node/3390
Typical recycled BS, starting with another typical truther favourite, the "a truther told me about it, I was skeptical and didn't believe it at first, he told me I needed to do my research, I did my research and found it really was an inside jobby job, so I decided to post about it on the internet rather than take any really drastic action" anecdote.

Do you see the engineers or architects being interviewed in this clip ? They were attending the AIA convention in DC last week where Richard Gage and www.ae911truth.org had a stand. They are exactly the kind of people who suddenly realise that something is seriously skewed about the official account of 9/11.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnyL7Nn3eOA&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fforums%2Erandi%2Eorg%2Fshowthrea d%2Ephp%3Ft%3D105821%26page%3D21&feature=player_embedded

[Scott Sommers]

Bill, I thought you said you would go away and stop bothering me. I do not care what you think. None of your comments have anything to do with my question. This is my post. Addressing your point will change the question. Please get back on your UFO and leave me alone.

[jhunter1163]

Bill, I thought you said you would go away and stop bothering me. I do not care what you think. None of your comments have anything to do with my question. This is my post. Addressing your point will change the question. Please get back on your UFO and leave me alone.

I like this Scott guy. Welcome to the forum.

[bill smith]

Bill, I thought you said you would go away and stop bothering me. I do not care what you think. None of your comments have anything to do with my question. This is my post. Addressing your point will change the question. Please get back on your UFO and leave me alone.

Scott....stuff like this is invaluable when asessing the status of the 9/11 conspiracy. So it is entirely on topic to post it. You may have noticed that I did not address that last post to you though I could have if I had chosen to. That is the nature of the open forum.
To make your assessment you will obviously need input from both sides. So I may drop off an item or two as I see fit.

[Scott Sommers]

I just wanted to establish beyond doubt where you stood. Now that I have done that there is no reason for me to to stay. So see you around.

You said you would go away. What kind of impression of Bill Smith as a person do you think this leaves? You are committed? You are determined and brave? Do you think you can show me that one piece of evidence, that one video, that one testimony, that will change my whole world view? Ya, you and the Jehovah's Witnesses. And I don't talk to them, either.

Please keep your original word to me.

[timhau]

Scott....stuff like this is invaluable when asessing the status of the 9/11 conspiracy.


in·val·u·a·ble
Adjective
having great value that is impossible to calculate


A friendly reminder: the fact that the value of X is impossible to calculate does not necessarily make X invaluable.

[bill smith]

You said you would go away. What kind of impression of Bill Smith as a person do you think this leaves? You are committed? You are determined and brave? Do you think you can show me that one piece of evidence, that one video, that one testimony, that will change my whole world view? Ya, you and the Jehovah's Witnesses. And I don't talk to them, either.

Please keep your original word to me.

I didn't give my word. But I will leave you in peace for now.

' 9/11 is like that crazy guy on the subway. You don't want to look him in the eye but sooner or later you know that you will have to look him in the eye '

[Hokulele]

' 9/11 is like that crazy guy on the subway. You don't want to look him in the eye but sooner or later you know that you will have to look him in the eye '


"9/11 is like that crazy guy on the subway. He keeps barfing on my shoes."

[timhau]

' 9/11 is like that crazy guy on the subway. You don't want to look him in the eye but sooner or later you know that you will have to look him in the eye '

Umm... no. You can take your train, go where you were going and emerge from the underground, while that crazy guy keeps raving on.

[JihadJane]

deleted

[cyclonic]

Do you see the engineers or architects being interviewed in this clip ? They were attending the AIA convention in DC last week where Richard Gage and www.ae911truth.org had a stand. They are exactly the kind of people who suddenly realise that something is seriously skewed about the official account of 9/11.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnyL7Nn3eOA&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fforums%2Erandi%2Eorg%2Fshowthrea d%2Ephp%3Ft%3D105821%26page%3D21&feature=player_embedded

After 2 years of researching 9/11 this is the only original thing Richard Gage has come up with.

DFVoencqfZw

[UNLoVedRebel]

If there were an website exposing the Iran/Contra crimes and it didn't get many visitors would that mean that the Iran/Contra conspiracy never happened?
Can you read the OP and STFU?

[Scott Sommers]

So here's my situation.

Over the last week or so, I've watched all kinds of videos about 911. It's really clear to me what happened that day. But I still have this very particular questions left, so come to this forum to get it answered. Bill comes on and tells me I must have missed something and he can show me what it is. After all, he can show me something I've never seen before.

When I tell him I have no interest in what he has to say, he responds in a reasonable way and basically apologizes for bothering me. But what do you know, a couple of posts later, he's back telling me that his last video wasn't the one that would change my life, but he does have another one that will.

You don't think most people would be bothered by this? Maybe the people on special interest forums or the kind of people you talk with in your group don't take this personally. The implication is that I'm stupid. It's offensive. And now Bill tells me that he lied to me. He's open about this. He says he was a liar but now he'll leave me alone.

Maybe I'm naive and it was ridiculous to take him seriously in the first place. This is weird, and anyone outside of this forum world would find it that way.

[JihadJane]

If there were a website exposing the Iran/Contra crimes and it didn't get many visitors would that mean that the Iran/Contra conspiracy never happened?


You said you would go away. What kind of impression of Bill Smith as a person do you think this leaves? You are committed? You are determined and brave? Do you think you can show me that one piece of evidence, that one video, that one testimony, that will change my whole world view? Ya, you and the Jehovah's Witnesses. And I don't talk to them, either.

Please keep your original word to me.


Scott.in.taiwan, for someone who says they are new to the topic not particularly involved in 9-11 Conspiracy debates you appear to be admirably fluent in the abusive and manipulative debunker lingo.

You are very welcome to the cult but I suggest you work on your story a bit more if you don't want to appear like yet another old-hat propagandist posing as a naive newbie.


For example, compare:

I live overseas and had never heard of a 9-11 Conspiracy theory until earlier this year

with



The complexity of the TM arguments has not developed. It appears to me they are still using the same arguments they used years ago. There's that school teacher fellow [How very unconvincingly chatty! -JJ] who made the video about WTC 7, but that's not really a significant step in complexity of thinking. The TM appears to be increasingly attractive repackaging of the same series of 'facts'. This is in contrast to the debunker community which has developed very complex critiques and responses to TM. This might be because the TM is wrong and they have run out of data, but hasn't never stopped theories of scientific racism, for example.

[Dave Rogers]

Bill comes on and tells me I must have missed something and he can show me what it is. After all, he can show me something I've never seen before.

When I tell him I have no interest in what he has to say, he responds in a reasonable way and basically apologizes for bothering me. But what do you know, a couple of posts later, he's back telling me that his last video wasn't the one that would change my life, but he does have another one that will.

Bill just likes flinging brown stuff about. If you try to educate him as to what the brown stuff is, he simply takes it as encouragement to fling some more. I only read his posts for amusement these days, and rarely respond; there's no point responding to someone who interprets any possible response as a request to fling some more brown stuff.

Dave

[Oliver]

The Status of 9-11 Conspiracy Theories

BUSTED

[Scott Sommers]

I dreaded this, but here I go.

In case you missed it, there was just a presidential election. No one mentions this thing that you guys tell me is believed by engineers, lawyers, all kinds of professionals. It's a seething anger just ready to bust out and take over the streets. But not one of the candidates will talk about it. And there's no one running on a 911 Truth ticket. There are KKK rallies and White Nationalist groups marching in the streets. But 911 Truth? You couldn't miss the role of 911 in the election, but you could watch the whole thing and not know there's anything but planes hijacked by terrorists that crashed into military and political targets.

Maybe they're all in on it. Hell, maybe I'm in on it and don't even know. Maybe the body snatchers have taken control of everyone. I don't know; I'm not an expert on alien parasites. But I can say that virtually no voters seemed concerned about this. It did not come up as an issue.

This would not be possible if vast numbers of professionals and scientists had real serious questions about 911. And then Bill starts posting videos from 2007 about the one thing I do know about 911. There are no firefighters who think there was anything other than planes full of passengers and hijackers crashing in to military and political targets. Probably not even one, or we would know his name.

[UNLoVedRebel]

You are very welcome to the cult but I suggest you work on your story a bit more if you don't want to appear like yet another old-hat propagandist posing as a naive newbie.
I suggest you work on your trolling skills a bit more. Don't want another "the poll says nothing about those men being angry" embarrassment.
What am I supposed to say? The video is more than 2 years old

The complexity of the TM arguments has not developed. It appears to me they are still using the same arguments they used years ago.

[I_Gaze_At_The_Blue]

I fully agree scott.in.taiwan ... many so-called Truthers are also very narrow-minded in that they NEVER think outside the box that is the USA.

There are engineers, scientists, physisists, FireFighters, etc, etc, etc, etc all over the world whom will have looked into and studied these events.

Some of them in countries "not-exactly-friendly" to the US ...

Some of them in countries where the US has zero influence, jurisdiction, authority or sovereignty over.

So WHY have these other relevent experts WORLDWIDE not leapt onto and supported the Twoof Movement ???

[MikeW]

The complexity of the TM arguments has not developed. It appears to me they are still using the same arguments they used years ago.
In my experience mainstream MIHOP truthers aren't trying to find the truth; they want to "prove" what they already believe to be the case. That core faith is what matters. Most will never admit they're wrong on any significant detail, instead claiming for instance that no-one here has ever debunked anything, disproved a word David Ray Griffin has said, etc etc.

The problem with all this misplaced arrogance is you don't actually grow or develop in any way, except perhaps in coming up with new strategies to protect your beliefs from reality. So most truther theories just stagnate, as you point out: it's the same old arguments repeated over and over again.

[JihadJane]

I dreaded this, but here I go.

In case you missed it, there was just a presidential election. No one mentions this thing that you guys tell me is believed by engineers, lawyers, all kinds of professionals. It's a seething anger just ready to bust out and take over the streets. But not one of the candidates will talk about it. And there's no one running on a 911 Truth ticket. There are KKK rallies and White Nationalist groups marching in the streets. But 911 Truth? You couldn't miss the role of 911 in the election, but you could watch the whole thing and not know there's anything but planes hijacked by terrorists that crashed into military and political targets.

Maybe they're all in on it. Hell, maybe I'm in on it and don't even know. Maybe the body snatchers have taken control of everyone. I don't know; I'm not an expert on alien parasites. But I can say that virtually no voters seemed concerned about this. It did not come up as an issue.

This would not be possible if vast numbers of professionals and scientists had real serious questions about 911. And then Bill starts posting videos from 2007 about the one thing I do know about 911. There are no firefighters who think there was anything other than planes full of passengers and hijackers crashing in to military and political targets. Probably not even one, or we would know his name.

Are you telling the truth about the history of your relationship with "911 truth"? It doesn't seem like it to me.

Your comments appear to emerge from deep and focussed research (carried out, you say, this year) into the "911 Truth Movement". Why, then, are you asking charmingly naive questions about the status of "911 Conspiracy"? Haven't your intensive studies and journeys around 911-related websites already answered this easily answered question or did your admirable talent for wide-ranging research suddenly have an uncharacteristically bad day?

[JihadJane]

There are engineers, scientists, physisists, FireFighters, etc, etc, etc, etc all over the world whom will have looked into and studied these events.



Details please.

[UNLoVedRebel]

Details please.

http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=4355078&postcount=165

[Dave Rogers]

Scott.in.taiwan, for someone who says they are new to the topic not particularly involved in 9-11 Conspiracy debates you appear to be admirably fluent in the abusive and manipulative debunker lingo.

We have a crash training course for prospective NWO members, didn't you know? It involves strange and esoteric skills, like noticing that someone is lying when they say they'll do something and then very obviously don't do it. So far, the evidence suggests that this secret skill is one we've managed to prevent from falling into the hands of conspiracy theorists.

Are you telling the truth about the history of your relationship with "911 truth"? It doesn't seem like it to me.

Your comments appear to emerge from deep and focussed research (carried out, you say, this year) into the "911 Truth Movement".

Yes, it takes an enormous amount of research to find out that the burning political question of who was really responsible for 9/11 didn't seem to figure much in the 2008 elections. Again, this is such a subtle observation that most conspiracy theorists still don't seem to have noticed it.

Dave

[T.A.M.]

I am a new member to this forum and not particularly involved in 9-11 Conspiracy debates. I live overseas and had never heard of a 9-11 Conspiracy theory until earlier this year, when a colleague told me about this. It's obviously utter nonsense, but it seemed to be such a significant claim, I felt compelled to come to some understanding of it.

The impression I'm left with is that the Truther Movement (or whatever you call it) is on its last leg. I doubt they'll disappear, but they are less and less able to generate interest among mainstream people who might have had sympathy for them. They are increasingly left with only highly committed whack-jobs who are willing to accept any claim.

But what do I know? I never even imagined such a thing could exist until a few months ago. Is this a correct perception of the situation?

100% correct.

TAM:)

[Scott Sommers]

Are you telling the truth about the history of your relationship with "911 truth"? It doesn't seem like it to me.

Your comments appear to emerge from deep and focussed research (carried out, you say, this year) into the "911 Truth Movement". Why, then, are you asking charmingly naive questions about the status of "911 Conspiracy"? Haven't your intensive studies and journeys around 911-related websites already answered this easily answered question or did your admirable talent for wide-ranging research suddenly have an uncharacteristically bad day?

This is a very strange remark. I suppose it's a compliment and I should thank you. I'm a professional researcher and writer. People pay me to do this. My research skills are better than yours. I just don't know everything or have the time and interest to find everything.

[T.A.M.]

This is a very strange remark. I suppose it's a compliment and I should thank you. I'm a professional researcher and writer. People pay me to do this. My research skills are better than yours. I just don't know everything or have the time and interest to find everything.

You will find these sites incredibly helpful,

http://www.911myths.com/index.php/Main_Page
http://wtc7lies.googlepages.com/

TAM:)

[Scott Sommers]

I just reread your question and have a better, less condescending answer. I have lived outside the ancestral homelands of my people for a long, long time. I don't really have any sense of what's going on. The USA, Canada, these are foreign countries to me. I may have had a good education and all that other stuff, but I have no sense at all about how things are perceived in the West.

While it's clear to me that 911 Truth stuff had no impact in the last election, honest to God, I had never heard of it then. It wasn't until my mentally unbalanced colleague boasted to me of his iconoclastic knowledge that I ever had any idea that 911 wasn't just plain obvious. Honest to God, that was the first time I ever went to Google and typed in anything about 911 Conspiracy. In fact, until my unstable colleague was on his downward spiral to job termination, I had very little interest in 911 in any sense.

This week, I have a lot of time off. I watched a lot videos and read a lot of stuff - honest to God. In fact, in the beginning, it was really hard to find anything other than conspiracy stuff. It took me days to find this place. But my wife took off with her sister and I had nothing else to do.

I read hundreds of pages of interviews with 911 firefighters and what's the first thing that my buddy Bill Smith gives to me? How the testimony of firefighters proves there was something else going on. And who's his source? A professor of religious studies who keeps telling us he knows more about what happened there than the professional fire fighters whose testimony he tells us he wants to hear.

[Scott Sommers]

You will find these sites incredibly helpful,

http://www.911myths.com/index.php/Main_Page
http://wtc7lies.googlepages.com/

TAM:)

Thanks. I found this before. In fact, that's how I got here.

[I_Gaze_At_The_Blue]

Details please.


JihadJane ... I may be "new" to this Forum ... but I am NOT new to 9/11 conspiracy de-bunking.

EVERY question that you ask of me WILL have no doubt been previously answered here by others in full and accurately.

But as a new Forum member you should KNOW that I am not able yet to post links, etc.

So ... thank you UNloVedRebel ... for doing it for me. :blush:

I already have looked into those and found them to have a common consensus.

And I wonder if JihadJane has ANYTHING as scientifically literate or legitimate to offer in return.

I suspect not ...

Unless it is some of Jones' poor work ... peer-reviewed by sycophants ... published in a vanity journal !!!

[Justin39640]

Are you telling the truth about the history of your relationship with "911 truth"? It doesn't seem like it to me.

Your comments appear to emerge from deep and focussed research (carried out, you say, this year) into the "911 Truth Movement". Why, then, are you asking charmingly naive questions about the status of "911 Conspiracy"? Haven't your intensive studies and journeys around 911-related websites already answered this easily answered question or did your admirable talent for wide-ranging research suddenly have an uncharacteristically bad day?

what, you cant do enough research in 6 months to come to a conclusion?
usually it takes 6 minutes to see through truther BS (pun intended)

too bad he didnt run into gage's cardboard box demo sooner he coulda saved 5 months and 29 days

how that moron has any support after that embarrassment is beyond me but i guess when youre head is infected with woo anything on youtube looks good lol

[eromitlab]

I dreaded this, but here I go.

In case you missed it, there was just a presidential election. No one mentions this thing that you guys tell me is believed by engineers, lawyers, all kinds of professionals. It's a seething anger just ready to bust out and take over the streets. But not one of the candidates will talk about it. And there's no one running on a 911 Truth ticket. There are KKK rallies and White Nationalist groups marching in the streets. But 911 Truth? You couldn't miss the role of 911 in the election, but you could watch the whole thing and not know there's anything but planes hijacked by terrorists that crashed into military and political targets.


Well, to be fair, a 9/11 truther did run for President. Cynthia McKinney, the Green Party candidate, did not keep her 9/11 truth support a secret and was endorsed by a number of truthers. She also offered the belief that the government killed 5000 felons in New Orleans under cover of Hurricane Katrina and dumped them in Lake Pontchartrain.

Ms. McKinney got 161,613 votes, or .12% of the total vote cast nationwide.

[A W Smith]

Well, to be fair, a 9/11 truther did run for President. Cynthia McKinney, the Green Party candidate, did not keep her 9/11 truth support a secret and was endorsed by a number of truthers. She also offered the belief that the government killed 5000 felons in New Orleans under cover of Hurricane Katrina and dumped them in Lake Pontchartrain.

Ms. McKinney got 161,613 votes, or .12% of the total vote cast nationwide.

So 5000 Felons are missing? and this is a bad thing?

[Stellafane]

Hi Scott.in.taiwan. I like the way you write, direct and to the point. For the record, I too earn my living as a researcher and writer, so perhaps this is why I recognize such good writing when I see it. I hope you stay a while and post often.

As for the status of the 9/11 conspiracy, I wrote the following post in another thread, one that eventually got consigned to "Abandon All Hope" (also known as AAH; it's the repository for threads and posts that the JREF Forum moderators feel are inappropriate). After checking with the moderators, I have learned that it's OK to salvage material from AAH, so long as said material does not violate Forum rules. So here's my take on the current status of the 9/11 CT, at least as represented by its members who come here to the JREF Forum to post:

Back in the earlier days, dealing with 9/11 CTers was like having someone show up in front of your house shouting "You and your friends are all murderers!" This isn't the sort of thing you want your neighbors to hear unchallenged, so we rushed out and said "No we're not!" and proved it. Then after a while a different group showed up and yelled "You're all a bunch of a-holes!!" and some of us would kind of get caught up in the emotions of the moment and shout back "You're the a-holes!!" until we realized how juvenile and futile it was.

But now, the only ones who show up anymore just smear their own feces all over their bodies while screaming incoherently. And the reaction to that is just sort of to say "WTF?" and scratch our collective heads wondering just what it is these people imagine they're trying to accomplish.

A better person than I probably wouldn't find the spectacle quite so funny. But as I readily admit, I'm not that person. So...A HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

[JihadJane]

Yes, it takes an enormous amount of research to find out that the burning political question of who was really responsible for 9/11 didn't seem to figure much in the 2008 elections. Again, this is such a subtle observation that most conspiracy theorists still don't seem to have noticed it.

Dave

I was referring to all scott.in.taiwan's comments on this thread, his/her insights into the long-term development of the "911 Truth Movement" in particular.


This is a very strange remark. I suppose it's a compliment and I should thank you. I'm a professional researcher and writer. People pay me to do this. My research skills are better than yours. I just don't know everything or have the time and interest to find everything.

I remain to be convinced by your back story and am also curious as to how you researched my research abilities.

I just reread your question and have a better, less condescending answer. I have lived outside the ancestral homelands of my people for a long, long time. I don't really have any sense of what's going on. The USA, Canada, these are foreign countries to me. I may have had a good education and all that other stuff, but I have no sense at all about how things are perceived in the West.

The internet could help you find out what's going on in foreign countries or is researching attitudes in foreign countries outside your research skills bracket? You seem to know almost everything else about "911 Conspiracy".

While it's clear to me that 911 Truth stuff had no impact in the last election, honest to God, I had never heard of it then. It wasn't until my mentally unbalanced colleague boasted to me of his iconoclastic knowledge that I ever had any idea that 911 wasn't just plain obvious. Honest to God, that was the first time I ever went to Google and typed in anything about 911 Conspiracy. In fact, until my unstable colleague was on his downward spiral to job termination, I had very little interest in 911 in any sense.

This week, I have a lot of time off. I watched a lot videos and read a lot of stuff - honest to God. In fact, in the beginning, it was really hard to find anything other than conspiracy stuff. It took me days to find this place. But my wife took off with her sister and I had nothing else to do.

I read hundreds of pages of interviews with 911 firefighters and what's the first thing that my buddy Bill Smith gives to me? How the testimony of firefighters proves there was something else going on. And who's his source? A professor of religious studies who keeps telling us he knows more about what happened there than the professional fire fighters whose testimony he tells us he wants to hear.


I not interested in discussing the content of your disagreement with Bill Smith. What struck me was the ease with which you slipped into fluent debunkerese, strange coming from someone “not particularly involved in 9-11 Conspiracy debates” (OP).

Perhaps you’re just a quick learner or a good mimic. ;)

I am interested to know how you ascertained, from your research, that the "TM" is "still using the same arguments they used years ago". When I first started studying the topic, exploring the mechanics of the Tower's disintegration was correctly judged by many 911 skeptics to be a a red herring, or worse - as counterproductive as obsessing about what did or didn't hit the Pentagon - and would probably be used to destroy any chances of exposing US complicity in the attacks.


Was your suffering colleague professionally diagnosed or are you speaking colloquially when you call him "mentally unstable"?


But as a new Forum member you should KNOW that I am not able yet to post links, etc.

So ... thank you UNloVedRebel ... for doing it for me. :blush:



Just leave the http:// bit off.

I can't see UNloVedRebel's post so you or someone else will have to post the links if you want me to respond to them.


what, you cant do enough research in 6 months to come to a conclusion?



Why would it take six months (or a week?) to ascertain the status of 911 Conspiracy in the USA?

When newbie "twoofers" come onto this site disingenuously Just Asking Questions they are usually jumped on pretty quickly. Perhaps your skepticism is actually tribalism in disguise and not really skepticism at all.

:eek:

Or am I assuming too much?

[Dave Rogers]

I not interested in discussing the content of your disagreement with Bill Smith. What struck me was the ease with which you slipped into fluent debunkerese, strange coming from someone “not particularly involved in 9-11 Conspiracy debates” (OP).

Perhaps you’re just a quick learner or a good mimic. ;)

Or perhaps the observations that the regulars here have been making about the truth movement are blindingly obvious to those who aren't blinkered by their own idealogy.

Incidentally, "fluent debunkerese" seems, from the example you've given, to mean calling a liar a liar. Is that so specialised a use of language?

Dave

[~enigma~]

and am also curious as to how you researched my research abilities.
Your a member of the truth bowel movement. Nobody in the truth bowel movement has the ability to do any research. Do the math.

[Scott Sommers]

I gotta ask: does it really matter if my story is true? My identity is hardly secret. I bet I've given you enough information already to find my true identity. I think it does matter because, as Roger has pointed out, it just takes a weekend with nothing to do to figure out what's going here. And he's right again about why I call Bill a liar. You guys have been have talking for so long to people who, no matter how much they disagree with you, they really want talk to you. The reality is that people who aren't part of this world just think the way you act is rude and stupid.

But really, does it matter if I am who I say I am? What would you concede if I really turned out to be a brand new guy who knew nothing about this trash until a few months ago and had spent a no more than a few hours researching it on the Net? What would you be willing to admit?

[Alt+F4]

I was referring to all scott.in.taiwan's comments on this thread, his/her insights into the long-term development of the "911 Truth Movement" in particular.

Maybe Scott is a professional debunker paid by the NWO to spread dis-info on the Internet and mess with your head.

....or maybe not.

[Scott Sommers]

Ya...that's it...I'm an agent for the NWO. No, no...I'm one of those half-human alien things. Nah...but it is true that you can probably find who I am.

The really amazing thing here is what a little bit of school and few years of maturity can do for you. Honest to God you guys, how many times can write or say or provide links that claim there are all these engineers and firefighters and even CIA agents who belong to the 911 TM? All it takes is an afternoon that the wife's away to figure out that there's no more than a handful of these guys and that the ones there are all have some weird kind of psychological baggage with them.

By the way, I work quite closely with building designers and constructors. Many engineers and architects actually have very little knowledge of large building dynamics. Lots of them design houses or build roads. The fact that someone has a degree in civil engineering or architecture don't mean nothing. If you're going to provide me with links that are supposed to change my life, make sure it doesn't Gage What's-his-name talking about free fall or how many firefighters believe it was an 'inside job'.

Honestly, you provide me with videos of major building designers or constructors whose names I can verify. You provide me with videos of firefighters - that's plural - saying that they believe the 'inside job' story. Provide me with the names of officials and those involved in planting detonators or piloting cruise missiles into the Pentagon. You show me where the passengers of United 93 are being held. You give me the names of soldiers or technicians that performed the miracles of 911 Truth. I want names of people. Names, names, names. And not these students and interior designers who belong to Architects for 911 Truth. Real names of structural engineers. Real names of demolition firms that will confirm your hallucinations. Real names of engineers who worked on the construction of the WTC who believe what you believe.

And I don't mean this crap that Bill Smith put in front of me. I've seen all the garbage that's available. I do not want you to waste my time with more links that convince no one except people who already have to take medication to control their thoughts.

If it's anything else, then I politely ask you to refrain from stealing the moments of my life with drivel.

Otherwise, I don't want to talk to you and I ask you to stop bothering me and let me talk with the seriously knowledgeable people that I came here to meet.

[~enigma~]

You show me where the passengers of United 93 are being held.
Why, the bowel movement already made it clear that the passengers are secondary to their idiotic claims.

[Scott Sommers]

'Cause they're not to me. If they can't show me where all those people are being held ever so secretly for so many years, then they're just making up a story.

[~enigma~]

'Cause they're not to me. If they can't show me where all those people are being held ever so secretly for so many years, then they're just making up a story.
Plenty of other reasons to understand they are making things up as they go along but that is what they said about the passengers. Want to hear and see more of their disrespectful and idiotic bs? Watch MarkyX's video called 9/11 Deniers Speak.

[T.A.M.]

'Cause they're not to me. If they can't show me where all those people are being held ever so secretly for so many years, then they're just making up a story.

This particular point, like so many, merely caused a "modification" of the truther worldview/mantra.

Prior to this point, they would leave it as "a mystery" as to what happened to the passengers. When confronted on it, they, like most truthers, adapted, and usually went with,

"They were collected together and murdered." or some such variation.

Got a problem with missing passengers? Make the make-believe bad guys killem.

TAM:)

[Scott Sommers]

So I watched the video you referred to. One thing that struck me is that 911 Truth is a really White thing. I've watched dozens of videos of 911 Truth protests. I have never seen a coloured person. In fact, 9/11 Deniers Speak Out: Ground Zero Edition Part 1 (http://twurl.nl/28dkxt)
opens with a confrontation between 911ers and some Black Muslims. It also seems to be a really young and middle-class group.

[~enigma~]

So I watched the video you referred to. One thing that struck me is that 911 Truth is a really White thing. I've watched dozens of videos of 911 Truth protests. I have never seen a coloured person. In fact, 9/11 Deniers Speak Out: Ground Zero Edition Part 1 (http://twurl.nl/28dkxt)
opens with a confrontation between 911ers and some Black Muslims. It also seems to be a really young and middle-class group.
There are a few black people but as you saw it is mostly white middle/lower class. Not too surprising that the bowel movement is infused with quite alot of anti-semitism. Notice that the KKK wears white uniforms and the nazi's wore brown shirts while the self named truthers wear black. If I were a black, homosexual, jew, gypsy or any of alot of other types I would be worried but for some reason I doubt that most truthers are able to shoot straight.

[Scott Sommers]

This particular point, like so many, merely caused a "modification" of the truther worldview/mantra.

Prior to this point, they would leave it as "a mystery" as to what happened to the passengers. When confronted on it, they, like most truthers, adapted, and usually went with,

"They were collected together and murdered." or some such variation.

Got a problem with missing passengers? Make the make-believe bad guys killem.

TAM:)

Then I want to see their bodies. These are my rules for why I should waste my time with them.

Every second I talk with one of them is a second from my life that I can never reclaim. I can't imagine one of their ridiculous ideas that I haven't already seen on video. And I didn't come here to talk with whack-jobs about why I reject their world. If they want to talk with me, they better have something new that isn't already on the Net because, as I said, claims about firefighters and demolition experts are just so much trash.

~enigma~'s point about the 911 Deniers video was great. It was part of what I came here to find. Thanks.

[newton3376]

The impression I'm left with is that the Truther Movement (or whatever you call it) is on its last leg. I doubt they'll disappear, but they are less and less able to generate interest among mainstream people who might have had sympathy for them. They are increasingly left with only highly committed whack-jobs who are willing to accept any claim.

The truth movement has no credible or coherent arguments....they have been reduced to...

[Foolmewunz]

Hey, Scott and welcome aboard.

I was literally in the same predicament as you when I stumbled across the 911 nonsense 'lo those 3 years ago, and this was the place I first came across it. After years of reading SWIFT and following Randi's work in general, I started reading the forums and was astonished one year to see this rash of commentary on 911 conspiracies.

I can verify what you're saying, personally. Almost no one over here had any idea that there was such a CT going on. I've been in Hong Kong since 2002, and having witnessed 9/11 live outside my office window in New York (Jersey City to be precise), I was taken to join these forums pretty much for the same reason you cite. To check into some of this lunacy first hand.

Where are you in Taiwan? I lived in Taipei for two years and still have some of my closest friends there. (My best buddy is part owner of China Pa, one of the better hangouts in town.)

[~enigma~]

Basically the bowel movement is a hate group just like the KKK, Aryan Nation, Nazis, Neo-Nazis, etc...

The only difference is that ALL the hate groups besides the bowel movement are better organized and actually have a better turnout of supporters at their rallys.

[Scott Sommers]

Thanks for the welcome.

I live in Taipei County quite far from Taipei. My best Taiwanese friend is a licensed construction engineer and a specialist on earthquake damage. Back in 2001, we talked all about steel frame buildings and what happened at the WTC. His words to me were that if he had seen a steel frame building like that on fire, he would have run the other way as fast as he could. The idea that anyone could find this surprising had him laughing.

But thanks for the words of understanding. In fact, this is a very welcoming place. I appreciate the kind words.

[Foolmewunz]

Thanks for the welcome.

I live in Taipei County quite far from Taipei. My best Taiwanese friend is a licensed construction engineer and a specialist on earthquake damage. Back in 2001, we talked all about steel frame buildings and what happened at the WTC. His words to me were that if he had seen a steel frame building like that on fire, he would have run the other way as fast as he could. The idea that anyone could find this surprising had him laughing.

But thanks for the words of understanding. In fact, this is a very welcoming place. I appreciate the kind words.

Hey, don't mention it. I do side duty on the Welcome Wagon Steering Committee (well, they make me drive, but it sounds so much classier to say I'm on the "steering committee"). Stroll arond the grounds and check out some of the other areas. Whatever it is you research, we may have saner threads than those on this barely twitching corpse that is the TM.

I see you've met a couple of our resident truthers. There are others, but like I said, after you've satisfied your curiosity in the CT areas, do check out some of the other sub-forums. I think you'd be our first regular from Taiwan, and I keep threatening them that the Asian delegation is going to take over, so any wee victory I can get is of value. (I'm being totally facetious - there are like a whopping dozen Asians on the boards - and that's if I cheat and count the Polynesians).

[bill smith]

Thanks for the welcome.

I live in Taipei County quite far from Taipei. My best Taiwanese friend is a licensed construction engineer and a specialist on earthquake damage. Back in 2001, we talked all about steel frame buildings and what happened at the WTC. His words to me were that if he had seen a steel frame building like that on fire, he would have run the other way as fast as he could. The idea that anyone could find this surprising had him laughing.

But thanks for the words of understanding. In fact, this is a very welcoming place. I appreciate the kind words.

Don't you find it a strange thing that your engineer friend said that he would run as fast as he could the other way if he saw a steel-framed building on fire ? I mean why would he do that ? No steel framed hi-rise building has ever collapsed from fire in the entire world history of constuction on the planet Earth. And he laughed that anybody would find it surprising ?

[~enigma~]

Don't you find it a strange thing that your engineer friend said that he would run as fast as he could the other way if he saw a steel-framed building on fire ? I mean why would he do that ? No steel framed hi-rise building has ever collapsed from fire in the entire world history of constuction on the planet Earth. And he laughed that anybody would find it surprising ?
Aww how cute....here we see a truther holding hands with another truther (Deep44) as he is drowning. Keep talking bill, it allows the water to enter your lungs faster.

[Information Analyst]

Don't you find it a strange thing that your engineer friend said that he would run as fast as he could the other way if he saw a steel-framed building on fire ? I mean why would he do that ? No steel framed hi-rise building has ever collapsed from fire in the entire world history of constuction on the planet Earth. And he laughed that anybody would find it surprising ?
Actually, he said, "a steel frame building like that on fire" - my emphasis for what would seem to be the operative point. IIRC, there has never been a building as tall being on fire to the same degree and which couldn't be fought.

[bill smith]

Aww how cute....here we see a truther holding hands with another truther (Deep44) as he is drowning. Keep talking bill, it allows the water to enter your lungs faster.

Well it's not often that we get the chance to shoot somebody down so comletely now is it ?

[BigAl]

Don't you find it a strange thing that your engineer friend said that he would run as fast as he could the other way if he saw a steel-framed building on fire ? I mean why would he do that ?


Maybe because he knows things you don't know, like this:

http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/docs/2005-132/

(see table D-1 http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/docs/2005-132/#ad )

NIOSH Publication No. 2005-132:
Preventing Injuries and Deaths of Fire Fighters Due to Truss System Failures


All-steel trusses present their own hazards when exposed to fire. The mass and surface area of steel truss components are factors that determine time to failure. A heavy, thick section of steel has greater resistance to fire than a lightweight section of the same length because of the increased mass. A large, solid steel truss can absorb heat and take longer to reach its failure temperature, whereas a lightweight steel truss such as an open-web bar joist will be heated to its failure temperature much faster.

Once the failure temperature is reached, heavy steel trusses and lightweight metal trusses will react to the fire and fail in a similar manner. A steel member fails at the internal temperature of the steel and not at the ambient air temperature. This temperature is often referred to as the critical temperature of the steel member.

[Scott Sommers]

So now my best friend is a lair. Maybe it's me. Why don't you tell me I'm a liar, that no one likes me and that I have no friends. First, you openly lie to me and now you call my friends liars. Do you do this on purpose? Is the real conspiracy that you're a bunch of jerks with no friends, jealous when you find that other people are likable?

Bill, you're not welcome. This is my thread; I want everyone to ignore Bill when he comes on.

[bill smith]

Actually, he said, "a steel frame building like that on fire" - my emphasis for what would seem to be the operative point. IIRC, there has never been a building as tall being on fire to the same degree and which couldn't be fought.


A bit of a tortured explanation but always interesting. There will be more no doubt.

[newton3376]

So now my best friend is a lair. Maybe it's me. Why don't you tell me I'm a liar, that no one likes me and that I have no friends. First, you openly lie to me and now you call my friends liars. Do you do this on purpose? Is the real conspiracy that you're a bunch of jerks with no friends, jealous when you find that other people are likable?

Bill, you're not welcome. This is my thread; I want everyone to ignore Bill when he comes on.

Bill is just regurgitating what he has been feeding on from the truthers....

[bill smith]

So now my best friend is a lair. Maybe it's me. Why don't you tell me I'm a liar, that no one likes me and that I have no friends. First, you openly lie to me and now you call my friends liars. Do you do this on purpose? Is the real conspiracy that you're a bunch of jerks with no friends, jealous when you find that other people are likable?

Bill, you're not welcome. This is my thread; I want everyone to ignore Bill when he comes on.

Or what?...you'll take your ball ? This is a public forum Scott my friend. Get used to it.

[tsig]

So now my best friend is a lair. Maybe it's me. Why don't you tell me I'm a liar, that no one likes me and that I have no friends. First, you openly lie to me and now you call my friends liars. Do you do this on purpose? Is the real conspiracy that you're a bunch of jerks with no friends, jealous when you find that other people are likable?

Bill, you're not welcome. This is my thread; I want everyone to ignore Bill when he comes on.

Bill's already implied you're a liar and a stooge. Her sole purpose is to draw a response. She will now use this post as a springboard.

Bill in 1 2 3

[Scott Sommers]

I'm just really surprised. Bill at one point promised to stop bothering me because I wasn't interested in his message. While it is true I don't know who he is and can't take his balls away from him, what impression of his political position does he think he's leaving? I'm going to leave here thinking that not only are 911 Truth folk illogical, but they're also a bunch of social freaks.

Does he really believe this stuff? Or is he just a lonely guy with no girlfriend who only knows how to draw people into a discussion by baiting them?

[carlitos]

I guess I too am a top-secret NWO agent, as I tend to speak "debunkerese," which some of us know as logical thought-laden English. It really is obvious to people with critical thinking skills that "9/11 Truth" is just another crazy conspiracy theory, only adhered to by people prone to such beliefs.

[Hokulele]

(I'm being totally facetious - there are like a whopping dozen Asians on the boards - and that's if I cheat and count the Polynesians).


Onipa'a!

[JihadJane]

Or perhaps the observations that the regulars here have been making about the truth movement are blindingly obvious to those who aren't blinkered by their own idealogy.

Incidentally, "fluent debunkerese" seems, from the example you've given, to mean calling a liar a liar. Is that so specialised a use of language?

No, I wasn't thinking of calling people liars although that approach is well represented on this forum ;)



I call the following "debunkerese":



Silly reference to UFOs:

Please get back on your UFO and leave me alone.

Irrelevant personal attacks and reference to Jehovah's Witnesses:

You said you would go away. What kind of impression of Bill Smith as a person do you think this leaves? You are committed? You are determined and brave? ...Ya, you and the Jehovah's Witnesses. And I don't talk to them, either.




Later, some other typical themes found in debunker personal abuse appear:





Or is he just a lonely guy with no girlfriend who only knows how to draw people into a discussion by baiting them?


Is the real conspiracy that you're a bunch of jerks with no friends, jealous when you find that other people are likable?




All that's missing is the parent's basement :)

--------------------------------------------------------------




I gotta ask: does it really matter if my story is true? ... I think it does matter because, as Roger has pointed out, it just takes a weekend with nothing to do to figure out what's going here.

Thanks for your reply. I, too, am trying to figure out what’s going on here. It matters to me whether your story is true (Your ID is irrelevant) because if it isn’t then your posts are simply Do-It-Yourself propaganda. It has the appearance of the latter to me but maybe polemics is just your natural way of expressing yourself.

I am wondering how, from your weekend's research, you arrived at the conclusion that the TM is “still using the same arguments they used years ago”.

When I first started studying the topic, exploring the mechanics of the tower's disintegration was correctly judged by many 911 skeptics then to be a red herring - as counterproductive as obsessing about what did or didn't hit the Pentagon - , or worse, and predicted that it would be used to destroy any chances of exposing US complicity in the attacks. Such arguments do not feature much in the discourse of those that 911 debunkers are interested in fighting nowadays.

[~enigma~]

Such arguments do not feature much in the discourse of those that 911 debunkers are interested in fighting nowadays.
that is simply because nobody wants to fight the guanophrenic idiocy that remains in the bowel movement since they are doing a great job of making themselves look stupid. It's funny how the old (and still current) cry of the bowel movement is "cui bono" but instead of stopping to think that certain members of their own movement are benfitting monetarily (like DRG, AJ, et al) they prefer to blame the government, FDNY, NYPD, PAPD, the Loizeaux family, and those who died on 9/11 and some of the first responders. Never heard of a more disgusting aggregate of humanoids.

[carlitos]

I am wondering how, from your weekend's research, you arrived at the conclusion that the TM is “still using the same arguments they used years ago”.
This has already been pointed out to you once, but seriously.

Originally Posted by scott.in.taiwan
What am I supposed to say? The video is more than 2 years old

Originally Posted by scott.in.taiwann
The complexity of the TM arguments has not developed. It appears to me they are still using the same arguments they used years ago.

Here is a better question. The attacks of 9/11/01 happened on 9/11/01. They have been comprehensively explained in minute detail from all aspects. Are you saying that the counter-argument would have more credibility if it indeed changed over time? Is that why you don't like someone pointing out the the arguments are old and tired? If so, please explain.

[SteveAustin]

If there were a website exposing the Iran/Contra crimes and it didn't get many visitors would that mean that the Iran/Contra conspiracy never happened?





Scott.in.taiwan, for someone who says they are new to the topic not particularly involved in 9-11 Conspiracy debates you appear to be admirably fluent in the abusive and manipulative debunker lingo.

You are very welcome to the cult but I suggest you work on your story a bit more if you don't want to appear like yet another old-hat propagandist posing as a naive newbie.

LOL, that was my exact thought. This is just another long time cult member trying to look like he is new just to try and add some more credibility to the cult.

I've noticed quite a few new cult members posting here, all seem to have the "debunker" lingo down pretty well. I wonder if they are part of an expanded paid internet 9/11 debunker group or part of the original 1000 they hired back in 2001?

[carlitos]

So, perhaps you can answer. What makes more sense - an alternative explanation that has stayed the same over time, or a whole bunch of different theories that change over time? It has been nearly 8 years.

[beachnut]

So here's my situation.

Over the last week or so, I've watched all kinds of videos about 911. It's really clear to me what happened that day. But I still have this very particular questions left, so come to this forum to get it answered. Bill comes on and tells me I must have missed something and he can show me what it is. After all, he can show me something I've never seen before.

When I tell him I have no interest in what he has to say, he responds in a reasonable way and basically apologizes for bothering me. But what do you know, a couple of posts later, he's back telling me that his last video wasn't the one that would change my life, but he does have another one that will.

You don't think most people would be bothered by this? Maybe the people on special interest forums or the kind of people you talk with in your group don't take this personally. The implication is that I'm stupid. It's offensive. And now Bill tells me that he lied to me. He's open about this. He says he was a liar but now he'll leave me alone.

Maybe I'm naive and it was ridiculous to take him seriously in the first place. This is weird, and anyone outside of this forum world would find it that way.
She is an expert at finding 911 delusions and posting them without thinking twice as she apologizes for terrorists.

[SteveAustin]

When newbie "twoofers" come onto this site disingenuously Just Asking Questions they are usually jumped on pretty quickly. Perhaps your skepticism is actually tribalism in disguise and not really skepticism at all.

:eek:

Or am I assuming too much?

DING! DING! DING!

Yes JihadJane, that is a big part of it for many "debunkers". There are other factors of course but some of the "debunkers" here on JREF jump on any and everything "truthers" say so quickly that it looks exactly like tribalism.

[beachnut]

LOL, that was my exact thought. This is just another long time cult member trying to look like he is new just to try and add some more credibility to the cult.

I've noticed quite a few new cult members posting here, all seem to have the "debunker" lingo down pretty well. I wonder if they are part of an expanded paid internet 9/11 debunker group or part of the original 1000 they hired back in 2001?
So here you are off topic and still zero evidence to support your failed delusions on 911. Skeptical people can spot your delusions and your lack of knowledge on 911 as you fail to present a rational case for your failed movement.

Why is your movement based on lies, hearsay, and delusions? Explain to Scott why your lack of evidence should be ignored and he should join a faith based cult of people spewing anti-intellectual tripe about 911.

[SteveAustin]

Or perhaps the observations that the regulars here have been making about the truth movement are blindingly obvious to those who aren't blinkered by their own idealogy.

Now that statement deserves the MOST IRONIC STATEMENT award if ever I saw one. Of course there's always the very real possibility that Dave is paid to say these things and does not really believe them himself, in which case it is not ironic at all, just evil

Incidentally, "fluent debunkerese" seems, from the example you've given, to mean calling a liar a liar. Is that so specialised a use of language?

Dave

"debunkerese" is the art of discrediting a person, group or idea by any and all means necessary (i.e. lying, insulting, etc... check out "how to debunk just about anything" and "38 ways to win an argument" for more of these unsavory methods)

[carlitos]

So, perhaps you can answer. What makes more sense - an alternative explanation that has stayed the same over time, or a whole bunch of different theories that change over time? It has been nearly 8 years.
SteveAustin, you seem not to have noticed, but I had meant to ask you this, since you agreed with JihadJane. Could you please enlighten me? Why would the "truth" argument have more credibility if it changed over time?

[newton3376]

deleted

[runlikell]

Well, to be fair, a 9/11 truther did run for President. Cynthia McKinney, the Green Party candidate, did not keep her 9/11 truth support a secret and was endorsed by a number of truthers. She also offered the belief that the government killed 5000 felons in New Orleans under cover of Hurricane Katrina and dumped them in Lake Pontchartrain.

Ms. McKinney got 161,613 votes, or .12% of the total vote cast nationwide.

She also got the vote of Noam Chomsky, the world's most cited living scholar. The 5000 felon thing was not EVER part of her campaign. You are being misleading.

[twinstead]

LOL, that was my exact thought. This is just another long time cult member trying to look like he is new just to try and add some more credibility to the cult.

I've noticed quite a few new cult members posting here, all seem to have the "debunker" lingo down pretty well. I wonder if they are part of an expanded paid internet 9/11 debunker group or part of the original 1000 they hired back in 2001?

Jane's different, because he's just supporting truthers because they share his world view (I wouldn't be surprised if he scretely thinks many of you are idiots, you know, strange bedfellows and all that) but YOU, you have some nerve stating the delicious irony that WE are cult members, when of course the 'truth' movement is the quintessential cult. It represents a tiny minority group claiming the rest of the world is wrong, whereas, as you know, the folks on JREF pretty much represent the rank-and-file of the real world, and pretty much represent the way your theories are received by normal people. Not just on this forum. But in the REAL WORLD.

You owe me one irony meter. You just shattered mine.

[twinstead]

She also got the vote of Noam Chomsky, the world's most cited living scholar. The 5000 felon thing was not EVER part of her campaign. You are being misleading.

What's funny is, IIRC, Chomsky thinks truthers are wrong.

[SteveAustin]

So here you are off topic and still zero evidence to support your failed delusions on 911. Skeptical people can spot your delusions and your lack of knowledge on 911 as you fail to present a rational case for your failed movement.

Why is your movement based on lies, hearsay, and delusions? Explain to Scott why your lack of evidence should be ignored and he should join a faith based cult of people spewing anti-intellectual tripe about 911.

Oh you mean all that evidence that I have posted on other webistes and have invited you and all JREF "debunkers" to to debate the evidence there (and i've offered this to all JREF many, many, many times but everyone has chickened out...go figure, I guess you all need your safety net of having 20 other paid disinfo agents to cover your back. Hmmm maybe you could all joing the other sites together?? No that won't work unless you also get the mods on your side before you start posting)

Do you mean all that evidence that simply will not get past your delusional state of mind? Or past your emotional and psychological blocks?

Or are you one of the many paid disinfo agents?

Oh since someone else mentioned it, I wondered why no one posted the daily hits for infowars.com, then I found out why...

infowars.com
Daily Pageview 204384

Yowzerssss, yes that 204384 hits a day

Heck even whatreallyhappened.com gets a respectable...

whatreallyhappened.com
Daily Pageview 35615

[runlikell]

I am a new member to this forum and not particularly involved in 9-11 Conspiracy debates. I live overseas and had never heard of a 9-11 Conspiracy theory until earlier this year, when a colleague told me about this. It's obviously utter nonsense, but it seemed to be such a significant claim, I felt compelled to come to some understanding of it.

The impression I'm left with is that the Truther Movement (or whatever you call it) is on its last leg. I doubt they'll disappear, but they are less and less able to generate interest among mainstream people who might have had sympathy for them. They are increasingly left with only highly committed whack-jobs who are willing to accept any claim.

But what do I know? I never even imagined such a thing could exist until a few months ago. Is this a correct perception of the situation?

No. The group "Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth" is larger now than it ever has been, and still growing (albeit slowly).

The group's leader, Richard Gage, was recently (within the last three months) interviewed on a regular US television news show, which marks the first time (I think) that someone who rejects the official explanation for the collapse of the twin towers has been interviewed in the US on television without being ridiculed. Here is the link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oO2yT0uBQbM

Within the last year, the FBI gave positive feedback to this group: http://www.ae911truth.org/docs/other/FBI_Heimbach_Response_Saive.pdf

Gage is currently a member of the American Institute of Architects, and his group was allowed to present their case at this year's AIA National Convention - another first.

The scientists of the truth movement also pulished a paper this year which claims to have found unignited explosives in the dust of ground zero, from multiple samples.

You may not agree with their conclusions, but it is naive to conclude that the movement is dead, or that it is all whackjobs. It may be comforting to tell yourself that, but the truth is that we live in a crazy world, eh? (obviously that can be interpreted in many different ways - and hence and agreed upon by everyone).

[Leviath]

You said you would go away. What kind of impression of Bill Smith as a person do you think this leaves? You are committed? You are determined and brave? Do you think you can show me that one piece of evidence, that one video, that one testimony, that will change my whole world view? Ya, you and the Jehovah's Witnesses. And I don't talk to them, either.

Please keep your original word to me.

The ignore function is your friend. I put bill on ignore some time ago and my IQ raised several points.

[SteveAustin]

Jane's different, because he's just supporting truthers because they share his world view (I wouldn't be surprised if he scretely thinks many of you are idiots, you know, strange bedfellows and all that) but YOU, you have some nerve stating the delicious irony that WE are cult members, when of course the 'truth' movement is the quintessential cult. It represents a tiny minority group claiming the rest of the world is wrong, whereas, as you know, the folks on JREF pretty much represent the rank-and-file of the real world, and pretty much represent the way your theories are received by normal people. Not just on this forum. But in the REAL WORLD.

You owe me one irony meter. You just shattered mine.

PROOF that the average JREF "debunker" has no clue what the real world is.

"Debunkers" delusional thinking (those that are not being paid to spout this nonsense) here for everyone to see.

Nice touch adding in the "as you know" part, that's a great disinfo tactic adding that part in, it sorta conditions people into actually believing what comes after it as being true even when it's not.

[johnny karate]

I wonder if they are part of an expanded paid internet 9/11 debunker group or part of the original 1000 they hired back in 2001?

Of course there's always the very real possibility that Dave is paid to say these things and does not really believe them himself, in which case it is not ironic at all, just evil

I guess you all need your safety net of having 20 other paid disinfo agents to cover your back.

Or are you one of the many paid disinfo agents?


You can't make up comedy this good.


check out "how to debunk just about anything" and "38 ways to win an argument" for more of these unsavory methods)


Here's a thought: How about you just post the link to this thing in your sig line? Hopefully that will stem your compulsion to constantly mention it, and prevent you from getting banned as a spammer. I'd hate to see another Truther so rich in comedic offerings get shown the door.

[SteveAustin]

The ignore function is your friend. I put bill on ignore some time ago and my IQ raised several points.

That's because you no longer have him to point out your errors and thus correct your IQ score.

...

Gee these debunking tactics really are easy to do aren't they?

See... you must constantly and repeadetly insult and ridicule. Insult and ridicule are the professional disinfo agent/debunkers best friend.

[johnny karate]

And it gets better!

First this:
PROOF that the average JREF "debunker" has no clue what the real world is.

And then this:
"Debunkers" delusional thinking (those that are not being paid to spout this nonsense) here for everyone to see.


Steve has created a singularity of irony so dense that light cannot escape its gravitional pull.

Keep up the good work, buddy!

[DavidJames]

Gage is currently a member of the American Institute of Architects, and his group was allowed to present their case at this year's AIA National Convention - another first.Please tell us how "their case" was presented at the convention (be specific) and exactly how they went about being "allowed" to present.

Please be very specific and remember how you are interested in the truth and thoroughly research both sides of this issue.

[twinstead]

That's because you no longer have him to point out your errors and thus correct your IQ score.

...

Gee these debunking tactics really are easy to do aren't they?

See... you must constantly and repeadetly insult and ridicule. Insult and ridicule are the professional disinfo agent/debunkers best friend.

Jesus give it a rest. For somebody who sounds like a broken record of a textbook of transparent debate tactics, you sure like to accuse others of the same thing. One of your favorite ones is to accuse anybody who disagrees with you of being a paid disinfo agent, and anybody else of using insult and ridicule as debate tactics.

You see, then you don't have to address any of the actual issues in the debate. Very nice. Hypocrisy ROCKS!

[TruthersLie]

She also got the vote of Noam Chomsky, the world's most cited living scholar. The 5000 felon thing was not EVER part of her campaign. You are being misleading.

the same noam chomsky who thinks that twoofs are full of ******

the same noam chomsky who laid down a simple challenge to twoofs, get your papers published in real respected peer reviewed journals?

the same challenge that you twoofs FAIL to reach and have to go to vanity pay to publish journals like Bentham for?

Really?

I just love it when twoofs cite someone who despises them and thinks they ar morons.

[TruthersLie]

No. The group "Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth" is larger now than it ever has been, and still growing (albeit slowly).


They have about 300 degreed and licensed architects and engineers. Why do they lie and state they have over 700?


snip

Gage is currently a member of the American Institute of Architects, and his group was allowed to present their case at this year's AIA National Convention - another first.


They had to pay to attend, and were put in the BACK near the bathrooms. After a 4 day convention, they had gathered..
wait for it
about 50 signatures (from gages own videos). They got about 15 architects to sign their petition.
Now think about that. There were 24,000 architects in attendance. They got 15.


The scientists of the truth movement also pulished a paper this year which claims to have found unignited explosives in the dust of ground zero, from multiple samples.

where did this paper get "published" again? Oh Bentham Open chemical physics journal, who had the head editor quit in a huff because they published this paper without her EVER SEEING IT. Great peer review there.

speaking about their "peer review" (read "did the check clear?") why is it that they had over 20 major methodological errors in it? There is a GREAT thread detailing the failings and errors. Sunstealer completely destroyed the "paper" (snicker).

[sylvan8798]

So now my best friend is a lair. Maybe it's me. Why don't you tell me I'm a liar, that no one likes me and that I have no friends. First, you openly lie to me and now you call my friends liars. Do you do this on purpose? Is the real conspiracy that you're a bunch of jerks with no friends, jealous when you find that other people are likable?

Bill, you're not welcome. This is my thread; I want everyone to ignore Bill when he comes on.

This being, more or less, a public place, I don't think you can "claim" a thread, or tell people they can't post on it. There is an option on the board that allows you to ignore another poster.:)

[carlitos]

SteveAustin, you seem not to have noticed, but I had meant to ask you this, since you agreed with JihadJane. Could you please enlighten me? Why would the "truth" argument have more credibility if it changed over time?

Steve? Jane? Anybody?

[runlikell]

the same noam chomsky who thinks that twoofs are full of ******

the same noam chomsky who laid down a simple challenge to twoofs, get your papers published in real respected peer reviewed journals?

the same challenge that you twoofs FAIL to reach and have to go to vanity pay to publish journals like Bentham for?

Really?

I just love it when twoofs cite someone who despises them and thinks they ar morons.

Where has Chomsky said that he believes the official story? Or that he despises people who beleive in alternative theories? Or that he thinks they ar morons? Chomsky seems to respect many people who reject the official sotry. For instance, he has many times been interviewed on the Global Research news hour, which is part of The Center for Research in Globalization, an organization whose members overwhelmingly reject the official story. I really doubt that Chomsky would waste his time getting interveiwed repeatedly by an organization of people who he despises and who he thinks are morons.

[beachnut]

Where has Chomsky said that he believes the official story? Or that he despises people who beleive in alternative theories? Or that he thinks they ar morons? Chomsky seems to respect many people who reject the official sotry. For instance, he has many times been interviewed on the Global Research news hour, which is part of The Center for Research in Globalization, an organization whose members overwhelmingly reject the official story. I really doubt that Chomsky would waste his time getting interveiwed repeatedly by an organization of people who he despises and who he thinks are morons.
You are saying Chomsky supports your lies and delusions on 911? So?

[beachnut]

Oh you mean all that evidence that I have posted on other webistes and have invited you and all JREF "debunkers" to to debate the evidence there (and i've offered this to all JREF many, many, many times but everyone has chickened out...go figure, I guess you all need your safety net of having 20 other paid disinfo agents to cover your back. Hmmm maybe you could all joing the other sites together?? No that won't work unless you also get the mods on your side before you start posting)

Do you mean all that evidence that simply will not get past your delusional state of mind? Or past your emotional and psychological blocks?

Or are you one of the many paid disinfo agents?

Oh since someone else mentioned it, I wondered why no one posted the daily hits for infowars.com, then I found out why...

infowars.com
Daily Pageview 204384

Yowzerssss, yes that 204384 hits a day

Heck even whatreallyhappened.com gets a respectable...

whatreallyhappened.com
Daily Pageview 35615

You claim to have evidence for your delusions on 911? But you post hits at nut case web sites as your evidence? Wowzer that is great support for your delusional ideas on 911; website hits.

Notice you have delusions, paid disinformation agents, about your delusions. Now that is great evidence you lack evidence to support your delusions but love to manufacture more delusions based on no evidence.

Got evidence for your conspiracy claims?



You are right Gage is not only a nut case 911 dolt on 911 issues, he is a fraud who takes money to travel from other people too stupid or lazy to figure out he is a liar on 911 issues.

[JoeyDonuts]

Holy Crap!!!

This thread really turned into a lightning rod for the resident Truther population.

All you need now is a RedIbis, a 9/11investigator, a psikeyHakr and a HomelandInsurgency and you'll have collected the whole set!

[Gravy]

Where has Chomsky said that he believes the official story? Or that he despises people who beleive in alternative theories? Or that he thinks they ar morons? Chomsky seems to respect many people who reject the official sotry. For instance, he has many times been interviewed on the Global Research news hour, which is part of The Center for Research in Globalization, an organization whose members overwhelmingly reject the official story. I really doubt that Chomsky would waste his time getting interveiwed repeatedly by an organization of people who he despises and who he thinks are morons.

I'm not aware of Chomsky saying that he "accepts the official story," but he has repeatedly said that he rejects the main truther claims about 9/11, and that he dislikes the methods truthers commonly use. Some examples follow (bolding mine). Note that he calls truthers "the 9/11 industry."

Further reason is that to evaluate the alleged evidence requires the kind of expert knowledge that can’t be picked up from surfing the internet: it requires substantial understanding of civil/mechanical engineering, the specific characteristics of the building, evaluation of photos, etc., and I don’t see dropping what I’m doing and taking off a great deal of time to pick up the requisite background and evalute the evidence. And a story will also have to be told about the planes and passengers, the massive cover-up involving huge numbers of people and (miraculously) no leaks, and why the administration would have been so utterly insane as to try something like this (which hasn’t the remotest analogue in history).

...I don’t know who is “attacking” the 9/11 industry. I certainly never have, nor has Mike Albert. My only comments (and to my knowlege his) are responses to the deluge of letters from people who feel that they have a right to dictate to me that I must drop what I am doing and pursue what they determine to be the True Path. Otherwise I never say a word about it, and can’t recall anyone else doing so either. I should add, incidentally, that the arrogance is quite amazing. I can’t imagine telling you to drop this if you think it’s important and turning to the issues that seem of vastly higher priority to me, nor denouncing you as a CIA asset if you do not follow my injunctions. But that’s quite common in the “9/11 movement.”

http://www.gnn.tv/forum/thread.php?id=15518&page=1
ETA:
Chomsky: "There are submissions to the Journal of 9/11 Studies, but that's about as convincing as submissions to the Journal of Intelligent Design Studies."

http://www.911blogger.com/node/16465

[Hokulele]

Holy Crap!!!

This thread really turned into a lightning rod for the resident Truther population.

All you need now is a RedIbis, a 9/11investigator, a psikeyHakr and a HomelandInsurgency and you'll have collected the whole set!


Banned last night.

[BigAl]

Where has Chomsky said that he believes the official story?

Chomsky in two 3 minute sections. He thinks twoofers loons.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BzGd0t8v-d4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LoDqDvbgeXM

[Stellafane]

Holy Crap!!!

This thread really turned into a lightning rod for the resident Truther population.

All you need now is a RedIbis, a 9/11investigator, a psikeyHakr and a HomelandInsurgency and you'll have collected the whole set!

Just consider them props in support of the fact that the 9/11 CT movement has devolved (from an already low starting point) into a moribund little collection of incoherent, yet bafflingly self-satisfied, feces-flingers. Their actions speak infinitely more eloquently about the nature of Truthers than all the insults I could possible muster in a lifetime. Well done folks, well done!!

[tsig]

No, I wasn't thinking of calling people liars although that approach is well represented on this forum ;)



I call the following "debunkerese":



Silly reference to UFOs:



Irrelevant personal attacks and reference to Jehovah's Witnesses:





Later, some other typical themes found in debunker personal abuse appear:










All that's missing is the parent's basement :)

--------------------------------------------------------------






Thanks for your reply. I, too, am trying to figure out what’s going on here. It matters to me whether your story is true (Your ID is irrelevant) because if it isn’t then your posts are simply Do-It-Yourself propaganda. It has the appearance of the latter to me but maybe polemics is just your natural way of expressing yourself.

I am wondering how, from your weekend's research, you arrived at the conclusion that the TM is “still using the same arguments they used years ago”.

When I first started studying the topic, exploring the mechanics of the tower's disintegration was correctly judged by many 911 skeptics then to be a red herring - as counterproductive as obsessing about what did or didn't hit the Pentagon - , or worse, and predicted that it would be used to destroy any chances of exposing US complicity in the attacks. Such arguments do not feature much in the discourse of those that 911 debunkers are interested in fighting nowadays.

Here's a thought. He actually researched the topic and did some reading before he posted.

Try it sometimes.

[tsig]

LOL, that was my exact thought. This is just another long time cult member trying to look like he is new just to try and add some more credibility to the cult.

I've noticed quite a few new cult members posting here, all seem to have the "debunker" lingo down pretty well. I wonder if they are part of an expanded paid internet 9/11 debunker group or part of the original 1000 they hired back in 2001?

1000, don't make me laugh. If you knew how many we've got stacked in the chute you would turn white in fear.

[twinstead]

Yup. We just HAVE to be paid disinfo agents. There's no other explanation. LOL

[tsig]

PROOF that the average JREF "debunker" has no clue what the real world is.

"Debunkers" delusional thinking (those that are not being paid to spout this nonsense) here for everyone to see.

Nice touch adding in the "as you know" part, that's a great disinfo tactic adding that part in, it sorta conditions people into actually believing what comes after it as being true even when it's not.

So your mission is to expose us?

[tsig]

Jesus give it a rest. For somebody who sounds like a broken record of a textbook of transparent debate tactics, you sure like to accuse others of the same thing. One of your favorite ones is to accuse anybody who disagrees with you of being a paid disinfo agent, and anybody else of using insult and ridicule as debate tactics.

You see, then you don't have to address any of the actual issues in the debate. Very nice. Hypocrisy ROCKS!

Ya gotta go with your strengths.

[eromitlab]

Yup. We just HAVE to be paid disinfo agents. There's no other explanation. LOL

Well, of course we are. The truthers' evidence is so airtight and irrefutable, everyone who doesn't agree with it has to be paid off to do so. 3 out of every 5 truthers agree! (The other two out of five truthers are, of course, gainfully employed as disinfo agents to disrupt the movement, and they think the three out of five that think they're disinfo are disinfo themselves, trying to cover it up.)

She also got the vote of Noam Chomsky, the world's most cited living scholar. The 5000 felon thing was not EVER part of her campaign. You are being misleading.

She said it in the middle of her Presidential campaign, genius. (http://www.opednews.com/populum/diarypage.php?did=9805) That makes it as much a part of her campaign as any comment made by the candidates; the Obama "lipstick on a pig" comment that had Republican phony outrage meters going nuts, Palin saying Obama was "palling around with terrorists", and so on. (How do you build a platform around on a conspiracy talking point anyway? Meh, whatever.)
And of course, it's already been explained to you in detail that Noah Chomsky sharply disagrees with 9/11 truth, so a vote for McKinney cannot be taken as an endorsement no matter how much truthers want it to be one.

[Gravy]

More Chomsky:

"Did they [the Bush Administration] plan it in any way or know anything about it? This seems be extremely unlikely. For one, they would have to be insane to try anything like that. If they had, it's almost certain it would have leaked. You know, it's a very porous system. Secrets are very hard to keep. So something would have leaked out, very likely. And if it had, they'd all be before firing squads. That'd be the end of the Republican Party forever."

..."There's a big industry in the United States, on the left as well. I mean, you should see the emails I get. This huge internet industry from the left that are trying to demonstrate – and there's books coming out, bestsellers in France, and so on – that this was all faked and was planned by the Bush Administration, and so on. If you look at the evidence, anyone who knows anything about the sciences would instantly discount the [truth movement] evidence.

I mean, there's plenty of coincidences and unexplained phenomena, I mean, why did this happen and why didn't this happen, and so on. But if you look at a controlled scientific experiment, the same thing is true. I mean, when someone conducts a controlled scientific experiment at the best laboratories, at the end, there are lots of things that are unexplained. ...if you want to get a sense of it, take a look at the letters columns in the scientific journals.... You're just going to leave a lot of things unexplained. That's how the world is.

Now, when you take a natural event, you know, not something that's controlled, most of it will be unexplained. There'll be all sorts of things that happen, that afterwards you can put them in some kind of pattern. But beforehand you can't, and the pattern may be completely meaningless, 'cause you can put them in some other pattern, too. And that's just the way complicated events are.

So the [truth movement] evidence that's been produced, in my opinion, is essentially worthless. And the belief that it could have been done is so [inaudible], you know, has so low credibility, that I don't really think it's serious."

http://therealnews.com/t/index.php?option=com_seyret&task=videodirectlink&id=24

[T.A.M.]

LOL, that was my exact thought. This is just another long time cult member trying to look like he is new just to try and add some more credibility to the cult.

I've noticed quite a few new cult members posting here, all seem to have the "debunker" lingo down pretty well. I wonder if they are part of an expanded paid internet 9/11 debunker group or part of the original 1000 they hired back in 2001?

I just had to take you off ignore, as I saw this quoted by someone else.

This is perhaps one of the funniest, most paranoid things I have seen in some time.

You really, HONESTLY, believe that the USG HIRED a bunch of people to come on line and debate the truthers on the JREF forum here on the internet? Really?

I just want all the lurkers to re-read what Mr. Austin has implied.

TAM:eek:

[bill smith]

You are saying Chomsky supports your lies and delusions on 911? So?

Noam Chomsky is the ultimate pragmatist. He saw no profit in allowng this issue to become divisive. He saw it as a fait accompli.But I have zero doubt that he is not privately fully aware that 9/11 was an inside job.
I sometimes wonder what his position is now that it looks like it is going to come out anyway.

[carlitos]

I'm wearing my "zero doubt hat" right now, but your assertion is laughable.

"Now that it looks like it is going to come out anyway." LOL.

[T.A.M.]

No. The group "Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth" is larger now than it ever has been, and still growing (albeit slowly).


Yes at their present growth rate, they should represent 1% of the architects and engineers world wide in about 500 years.


The group's leader, Richard Gage, was recently (within the last three months) interviewed on a regular US television news show, which marks the first time (I think) that someone who rejects the official explanation for the collapse of the twin towers has been interviewed in the US on television without being ridiculed. Here is the link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oO2yT0uBQbM

Wow, a local california fox network...he really has hit the big time.


Within the last year, the FBI gave positive feedback to this group: http://www.ae911truth.org/docs/other/FBI_Heimbach_Response_Saive.pdf

You mean the same FBI that is part of the cover up? Clearly Gage must be disinfo.;)


Gage is currently a member of the American Institute of Architects, and his group was allowed to present their case at this year's AIA National Convention - another first.

You mean they paid to have a booth there. Wow.


The scientists of the truth movement also pulished a paper this year which claims to have found unignited explosives in the dust of ground zero, from multiple samples.

Red paint. No chain of custody. Published in a proven sham/scam vanity journal that had editors quit over the publishing standards.


You may not agree with their conclusions, but it is naive to conclude that the movement is dead, or that it is all whackjobs. It may be comforting to tell yourself that, but the truth is that we live in a crazy world, eh? (obviously that can be interpreted in many different ways - and hence and agreed upon by everyone).

The scientists in it are whackjobs. The promoters such as AJ and others are whackjobs. It is not comforting at all...It does not phase me either way. I just want to make sure that anyone who might be left out there who has yet to be presented with the snake oil, has a place, and people, that can set them straight.

TAM:)

[bill smith]

I just had to take you off ignore, as I saw this quoted by someone else.

This is perhaps one of the funniest, most paranoid things I have seen in some time.

You really, HONESTLY, believe that the USG HIRED a bunch of people to come on line and debate the truthers on the JREF forum here on the internet? Really?

I just want all the lurkers to re-read what Mr. Austin has implied.

TAM:eek:

I prefer to call them 'concerned citizens' and I recommend that they look at these links to see how governments target social media forums such as this one.

http://www.sheilacasey.com/2009/01/paid-blog-attack-armies-flood-blogs-with-comments.html article
http://haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1056648.html Zionist bloggers
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=awy8cmcuBlk&feature=related video on cointelpro

PS.
http://georgewashington2.blogspot.com/2009/01/government-heavily-manipulates-social.html CENTCOM,USAF

[twinstead]

I prefer to call them 'concerned citizens' and I recommend that they look at these links to see how the government targets social media forums such as this one.

http://www.sheilacasey.com/2009/01/paid-blog-attack-armies-flood-blogs-with-comments.html articlehttp://haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1056648.html Zionist bloggers
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=awy8cmcuBlk&feature=related video on cointelpro

Frankly, and I mean this in the most respectful way, it's people like Heiwa, you, and many other 'truthers' who come on this forum and others who do the most damage to the 'truth' movement. You make them look like idiots, and if I were a rational member of the 'truth' movement (if such an animal could exist), I'd be so pissed at you folks that I couldn't see straight.

So. Who is the disinfo agent? How much does the government pay YOU, bill?

[carlitos]

Bill, the question was as follows

You really, HONESTLY, believe that the USG HIRED a bunch of people to come on line and debate the truthers on the JREF forum here on the internet? Really?, and the possible answers are
a - "yes"
b - "no" or
c - "I don't know"

In the real world, there is no "d - see this important youtube video!!!!!!1111!!1!!" answer to every single question posed.

ETA, I tried to watch the video, but when he had Goebbels in like the first 10 seconds, I disqualified it on Godwin grounds.

[T.A.M.]

I prefer to call them 'concerned citizens' and I recommend that they look at these links to see how the government targets social media forums such as this one.

http://www.sheilacasey.com/2009/01/paid-blog-attack-armies-flood-blogs-with-comments.html article
http://haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1056648.html Zionist bloggers
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=awy8cmcuBlk&feature=related video on cointelpro

Sure let them read...it will only emphasize, and make quite clear, my point.

Paranoia, big destroya.

TAM:D

[UNLoVedRebel]

I call the following "debunkerese":

Irrelevant personal attacks and reference to Jehovah's Witnesses:
JihadJane attacks people for making references to Jehovah's Witnesses when she does the same thing.
In MDC section debunkers use "Think of the orphans" moral, emotional blackmail in attempts to attract their food source (believers in the paranormal). In the CT section twoofer lovers use the death of three thousand people in New York to feed their addiction. It's strange to see desperate, hungry "critical thinkers" behaving Jehovah's Witnesses.

[beachnut]

I prefer to call them 'concerned citizens' and I recommend that they look at these links to see how governments target social media forums such as this one.

http://www.sheilacasey.com/2009/01/paid-blog-attack-armies-flood-blogs-with-comments.html article
http://haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1056648.html Zionist bloggers
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=awy8cmcuBlk&feature=related video on cointelpro

PS.
http://georgewashington2.blogspot.com/2009/01/government-heavily-manipulates-social.html

What anti-intellectual depths are you not willing to try in your delusional quest to spread lies on 911?
Do you believe all the delusions you post?

[Justin39640]

Yes at their present growth rate, they should represent 1% of the architects and engineers world wide in about 500 years.



Wow, a local california fox network...he really has hit the big time.



You mean the same FBI that is part of the cover up? Clearly Gage must be disinfo.;)



You mean they paid to have a booth there. Wow.



Red paint. No chain of custody. Published in a proven sham/scam vanity journal that had editors quit over the publishing standards.



The scientists in it are whackjobs. The promoters such as AJ and others are whackjobs. It is not comforting at all...It does not phase me either way. I just want to make sure that anyone who might be left out there who has yet to be presented with the snake oil, has a place, and people, that can set them straight.

TAM:)

this interview was on TV too and much more compelling
CMNry4PE93Y

[Stellafane]

Noam Chomsky is the ultimate pragmatist. He saw no profit in allowng this issue to become divisive. He saw it as a fait accompli.But I have zero doubt that he is not privately fully aware that 9/11 was an inside job.
I sometimes wonder what his position is now that it looks like it is going to come out anyway.

Oh, this is just too perfect: Noam Chomsky believes that 9/11 was an inside job -- but he still thinks you guys are idiots!!!

Somehow, this is something you want to be true?!? Oh man, oh man o man o man....

[TruthersLie]

Where has Chomsky said that he believes the official story? Or that he despises people who beleive in alternative theories? Or that he thinks they ar morons? Chomsky seems to respect many people who reject the official sotry. For instance, he has many times been interviewed on the Global Research news hour, which is part of The Center for Research in Globalization, an organization whose members overwhelmingly reject the official story. I really doubt that Chomsky would waste his time getting interveiwed repeatedly by an organization of people who he despises and who he thinks are morons.

BzGd0t8v-d4

and

LoDqDvbgeXM

and

76eSchi4heU

and

w_EgR9G3Ov0


you would think that getting an MA in cognative neuroscience you would have some great ability to find simple and easy resources.

Do you need to be spoon fed everything?
5 minutes of real research.

ETA
more from noam
J6pGqYRi-PU
and
T_RZqQlS3WM

So please continue to cite someone who thinks you are full of crap, ignorant ("if you can learn engineering by watching videos for 2 hours on the internet, great we can get rid of all of those high priced engineers.")

eta
and my favorite
TwZ-vIaW6Bc

[J. Wellington Wimpy]

the possible answers are
a - "yes"
b - "no" or
c - "I don't know"

In the real world, there is no "d - see this important youtube video!!!!!!1111!!1!!" answer to every single question posed.

Insert Thunderous, Sustained Applause HERE. :D

[psikeyhackr]

I am a new member to this forum and not particularly involved in 9-11 Conspiracy debates. I live overseas and had never heard of a 9-11 Conspiracy theory until earlier this year,
.
You have heard the Official Conspiracy Theory of 19 Arabs just happening to hijack 4 airliners on the day the US military just happened to be running multiple exercises.

psik

[dudalb]

Holy Crap!!!

This thread really turned into a lightning rod for the resident Truther population.

All you need now is a RedIbis, a 9/11investigator, a psikeyHakr and a HomelandInsurgency and you'll have collected the whole set!

You won't be seeing HomelandInsurgency around here. He had joined the departed.

[dudalb]

.
You have heard the Official Conspiracy Theory of 19 Arabs just happening to hijack 4 airliners on the day the US military just happened to be running multiple exercises.

psik


Hail,Hail.The Truther Gang's All Here.....

[TruthersLie]

.
You have heard the Official Conspiracy Theory of 19 Arabs just happening to hijack 4 airliners on the day the US military just happened to be running multiple exercises.

psik

Ummm psik.. I'm sure that this has been pointed out to you repeatedly, but I'll make sure it is said.

You do know that the US military is running multiple exercises almost EVERY DAY OF THE YEAR right?

You do realize that there are parts of the military all over the world, and there are exercises running on most days. right?

and the second part

How long was the longest hijacked plane in the air? an hour? Less? I think it was like 45 minutes).

do you know how many jets were on alert on 9/11? (the answer is 14 for the WHOLE country). Do you know how long it takes to get a FULLY alert jet in the air? about 5 to 10 minutes. So that means those 14 jets had about 35 minutes to close with and shoot down hijacked jets.

To keep this simple... at 600 mph, a jet will move 300 miles in 30 minutes. Can you find me a single airforce base with jets on alert that were 300 miles away from the flight paths of the hijacked jets?

How long does it take to scramble jets that are NOT prewarmed and avionics set up? about 30 to 45 minutes. so none of those jets could have intercepted any of the hijacked flights.

this didn't have to be Lihop, or mihop. It was just TOOOOOO fast for the military to respond effectively.

this irrational (and ignorant) view that the military is this super duper defensive shield that will stop ANYTHING bad from happening is BS, and shows ignorance.

[newton3376]

.
You have heard the Official Conspiracy Theory of 19 Arabs just happening to hijack 4 airliners on the day the US military just happened to be running multiple exercises.

psik

Do you people ever research anything beyond your stupid truther websites?

Are people still using the "multiple exercises" argument? Honestly people...

[twinstead]

.
You have heard the Official Conspiracy Theory of 19 Arabs just happening to hijack 4 airliners on the day the US military just happened to be running multiple exercises.

psik

Yea. that crap sounds all good and sinister. [cue spooky music]

You of course hope to God that the recipient of your secret 'truth' doesn't decide to, oh, I don't know, MAYBE DO A LITTLE RESEARCH into your claims, 'cause then you'd just look like some Paranoid Crazy Person who pretty much believes whatever he is told. And you're not like that, right?

[Cl1mh4224rd]

In my experience mainstream MIHOP truthers aren't trying to find the truth; they want to "prove" what they already believe to be the case.


I made the comment a long time ago, after "yet another expert" came out of the closet in support of the 9/11 Truth™ Movement and simply repeated the tired, old claims of the past: "They aren't looking for the truth; they're looking for someone to tell them they've already found it."

Nowadays, it's probably more like, "They aren't looking for the truth; they're looking for someone to convince everyone else that they've already found it."

Gage is currently a member of the American Institute of Architects, and his group was allowed to present their case at this year's AIA National Convention - another first.


"[P]resent their case"? Didn't they merely have a table off in some corner?


Oh, this is just too perfect: Noam Chomsky believes that 9/11 was an inside job -- but he still thinks you guys are idiots!!!

Somehow, this is something you want to be true?!? Oh man, oh man o man o man....


It looks like the usual variation of "battered wife syndrome" (OK, that's not exactly the phrase I'm looking for, but...) that a number of truthers display: a high profile figure publicly denounces the 9/11 Truth™ Movement, but they secretly know The Truth™ and support the movement (i.e. "He hits me, but I know that, deep down, he really loves me.").

[JoeyDonuts]

Now he just needs a 9/11investigator and a RedIbis and he'll have collected the whole Truther Starting Lineup.

Not bad for a new guy's first thread.

[Magenta]

DING! DING! DING!

Yes JihadJane, that is a big part of it for many "debunkers". There are other factors of course but some of the "debunkers" here on JREF jump on any and everything "truthers" say so quickly that it looks exactly like tribalism.


Nah, it's because what truthers say looks like BS that you get jumped on.

I just had to take you off ignore, as I saw this quoted by someone else.

This is perhaps one of the funniest, most paranoid things I have seen in some time.

You really, HONESTLY, believe that the USG HIRED a bunch of people to come on line and debate the truthers on the JREF forum here on the internet? Really?

I just want all the lurkers to re-read what Mr. Austin has implied.

TAM:eek:


Hey, if I'd known I could get paid for participating I'd have a higher post count. :mad:

[Cl1mh4224rd]

Also, there are a lot more debunkers on this subforum than truthers. The odds that a debunker will see and have a response to a truther's claim soon after it is made are a lot higher than the reverse.

Logic, SteveAustin. It's actually useful.

[triforcharity]

See if this shifts your opinion any. If it does not does that have any meaning ? Will people be able to assess which way you will jump ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZ4dVo5QgYg Firemen's Testimony- Study

God, not this stupid un-scientific study again?!?!!?!?! Can we drag this thing out to pasture and go all "Office Space" on it??? Thanks.

PS, you got OWNED in the VERY NEXT POST!!!! #20 HA hA!!!

[R.Mackey]

The impression I'm left with is that the Truther Movement (or whatever you call it) is on its last leg. I doubt they'll disappear, but they are less and less able to generate interest among mainstream people who might have had sympathy for them. They are increasingly left with only highly committed whack-jobs who are willing to accept any claim.

But what do I know? I never even imagined such a thing could exist until a few months ago. Is this a correct perception of the situation?

Judging by the response of Truthers in this very thread, the answer is "yes." You've gotten a sterling demonstration of the status of the Truth Movement. Looks like your thread is a winner.

[KJC]

You know, when I look at dozens of copies of Neils Harrits Danish television interview on nanothermite on YouTube, all with hundreds of thousands of views and all 5-starred to death... the troofer movement is not dead. Not by a long shot.

[carlitos]

The one reassuring thought is that youtube =/= real life.

[Justin39640]

You know, when I look at dozens of copies of Neils Harrits Danish television interview on nanothermite on YouTube, all with hundreds of thousands of views and all 5-starred to death... the troofer movement is not dead. Not by a long shot.

this one has 25 million
txqiwrbYGrs

i seen 255K for neils 1st video

ETA: at 18 seconds the kids asks a question that most truthers should ask themselves

[KJC]

Well, what I mean is, there are all these videos about Niels Harrit and not really anything debunking him.

I was gonna try to debunk him myself despite the fact I'm not all the clued up on the chemistry aspects of the situation, but I'm waiting for a truther to who said he was gonna make a video proving why thermite was "100%" proven to demolish the towers. So far he still hasn't made the video.

[Cl1mh4224rd]

You know, when I look at dozens of copies of Neils Harrits Danish television interview on nanothermite on YouTube, all with hundreds of thousands of views and all 5-starred to death... the troofer movement is not dead. Not by a long shot.


I see Rick Astley is burning up the musical charts. You know, according to YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHg5SJYRHA0)...

[triforcharity]

Scott,

Welcome my friend. Make youself at home.

If you REALLY wanna see just how disrespectful "truthers" can be, waatch this video.

Warning: Its got 90 curse words in 8:53 seconds, so be prepared.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFf-buObxl8

Watched it?? Good. Did you notice the bells in the background?? Yep, those are church bells from the Church near GZ. Guess what?? They aare in the MIDDLE of the cermony for the 3000 deaths on 9/11.

These sub-human lifeforms decided to attack at firefighter DURING this time. He is paying his ******* respects!! Leaave him alone DAMMIT!!

[/rant] [/off soapbox]

Steve Austin,

I figured it out in about 3 months that the TM uses the same BS over and over and over again. Its fairly simple. Click on page 101 of the 9/11 Conspiracy Theories thread, and look at the titles of the threads. Now, click on page 1. See a pattern??? Not hard eh???

And yes, I had heard about the "truth" movement before 3 months ago, I just didn't know that they were so disrespectfull as to blame the FDNY for killing the people in the towers. That is whan I got really into it.

[Grizzly Bear]

Scott,

Welcome my friend. Make youself at home.

>snipped for brevity<

And yes, I had heard about the "truth" movement before 3 months ago, I just didn't know that they were so disrespectfull as to blame the FDNY for killing the people in the towers. That is whan I got really into it.


Youtube is one of the most vile places to start arguing with CT nuts, because the moderation isn't good (understandably given the size of the site). I've started posting my own videos related to more private occasions and so I've pretty much halted my activity in dealing with them since I'm not keen on sharing details of my personal life (anime conventions, and hurricane videos). I like keeping all of that separate from what I do here...

There are kooks at my university... but I haven't run into any of them because I never took interest in the zeitgeist, terrorstorm, or Obama Deception crap. But out of the people I've openly discussed this conspiracy theory with I met three people who believe in one particular aspect but kind of stayed out of the really creepy ****... one believed 93 was shot down, and one believed in some of the TV fakery... but none of those people gave any indication of believing in the CD theory, or anything particularly crazy on the level of what I see online. The tv fakery person wasn't a no-planer interestingly... and the one who believed in the shoot down believed it was done to prevent it from reaching its target... SO I must have gotten the tamer bunch....

[~enigma~]

She also got the vote of Noam Chomsky, the world's most cited living scholar. The 5000 felon thing was not EVER part of her campaign. You are being misleading.
Though like the bowel movement failed she also failed.

[bill smith]

Oh, this is just too perfect: Noam Chomsky believes that 9/11 was an inside job -- but he still thinks you guys are idiots!!!

Somehow, this is something you want to be true?!? Oh man, oh man o man o man....

Unfortunately Stellafane it is true. You better start learnng to live with it rather than denying the obvious.

[Hokulele]

Unfortunately Stellafane it is true. You better start leantng to live with it rather than denying the obvious.


You are right, it is true that Chomsky thinks 9/11 CTists are idiots.

I don't see why Stellafane would have a problem living with this, or that he is denying the obvious idiocy.

[Foolmewunz]

Unfortunately Stellafane it is true. You better start learnng to live with it rather than denying the obvious.

What's it like, Bill? I mean, when you step through that looking glass over there in Bizarro Troofer World where up is down and yes means no? It must be pretty confusing, no?

Let us try to help. I know how you do so love to click links so I have to believe that you must've missed this one, provided by your good friend Gravy.

http://therealnews.com/t/index.php?o...rectlink&id=24

Give it a try. It won't bite.

Now if you could cite the ACTUAL WORDS - not your frothing lunatoid fantasies, but his actual words - where Naom has led you to believe that he supports the conspiracy theories, we'd certainly be pleased to see them.

[Dave Rogers]

When I first started studying the topic, exploring the mechanics of the tower's disintegration was correctly judged by many 911 skeptics then to be a red herring - as counterproductive as obsessing about what did or didn't hit the Pentagon - , or worse, and predicted that it would be used to destroy any chances of exposing US complicity in the attacks. Such arguments do not feature much in the discourse of those that 911 debunkers are interested in fighting nowadays.

And yet it's the topic of eleven threads currently on the first page of this forum, and is still actively being pushed by Steven Jones, Niels Harrit, Richard Gage, Tony Szamboti, Graeme MacQueen, Heiwa, bill smith, Homeland Insurgency, and those are just the ones I can think of without looking it up. Take a look at The 9/11 Forum on freeforums; virtually the only topic of conversation between femr2 and Major Tom is the minutiae of the collapse of the Twin Towers, in an attempt to find the one trifling anomaly that hasn't been explained in detail and hance can be falsely claimed as the ultimate proof of CD. Boredom with this obsessive behaviour is the main reason I don't read that forum any more. Your argument is a classic example of the No True Scotsman fallacy, but in this case you're excluding almost everyone north of Hadrian's Wall; the vain and hopeless attempts to prove the WTC collapses suspicious are still now, as they were in September 2001, the central delusion of the 9/11 truth movement, and this is instantly obvious to the casual observer.

Dave

[Dave Rogers]

LOL, that was my exact thought. This is just another long time cult member trying to look like he is new just to try and add some more credibility to the cult.

I've noticed quite a few new cult members posting here, all seem to have the "debunker" lingo down pretty well. I wonder if they are part of an expanded paid internet 9/11 debunker group or part of the original 1000 they hired back in 2001?

32 A quick way of getting rid of an opponent’s assertion, or of throwing suspicion on it, is by putting it into some odious category.

DING! DING! DING!

Yes JihadJane, that is a big part of it for many "debunkers". There are other factors of course but some of the "debunkers" here on JREF jump on any and everything "truthers" say so quickly that it looks exactly like tribalism.

32 A quick way of getting rid of an opponent’s assertion, or of throwing suspicion on it, is by putting it into some odious category.

Now that statement deserves the MOST IRONIC STATEMENT award if ever I saw one. Of course there's always the very real possibility that Dave is paid to say these things and does not really believe them himself, in which case it is not ironic at all, just evil

32 A quick way of getting rid of an opponent’s assertion, or of throwing suspicion on it, is by putting it into some odious category.

Dave

[Dave Rogers]

Oh you mean all that evidence that I have posted on other webistes and have invited you and all JREF "debunkers" to to debate the evidence there (and i've offered this to all JREF many, many, many times but everyone has chickened out...go figure, I guess you all need your safety net of having 20 other paid disinfo agents to cover your back. Hmmm maybe you could all joing the other sites together?? No that won't work unless you also get the mods on your side before you start posting)

19 Should your opponent expressly challenge you to produce any objection to some definite point in his argument, and you have nothing to say, try to make the argument less specific.

Dave

[Dave Rogers]

PROOF that the average JREF "debunker" has no clue what the real world is.

"Debunkers" delusional thinking (those that are not being paid to spout this nonsense) here for everyone to see.

38 Become personal, insulting and rude as soon as you perceive that your opponent has the upper hand.

Dave

[Klaymore]

I went there, and like, the top 50 sites were 99% porn!!! Heck, I think even midget lesbian horse porn gets more hits.

That's 'cause of me. Midget lesbian horses are SO freakin' hot!

I also really appreciate the link to the emo site; I am way cooler than those guys!

[JihadJane]

Here's a thought. He actually researched the topic and did some reading before he posted.

Try it sometimes.


I grant that it probably doesn’t take much research to master the characteristic playground language of debunker juvenile deliquency but the way scott.in.taiwan has levered nearly every traditional debunker talking point and insult in his/her brief appearance gives a strong impression of prepared articfice or, if not that, an impression of someone inexplicably keen to bond with the welcoming in-group

--------------------------------

re Chomsky:

One thing that appears to be be missing from the Chomsky discussion here is his insight that the attacks don’t matter because, in the context of the history of US-perpetrated terror and violence around the world the violence of 911 atrocity is not particulalrly significant except in terms of the number of simultaneous deaths and the fact that the victims weren’t in far off countries in South America, the Middle East, Central Asia etc etc.

In other words: Welcome, to the hyper-violent world of US foreign policy, US America.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Interviewer: if 9/11 was an inside job, then what’s to say that Bush Et Al., if cornered or not, wouldn't resort to another more heinous attack of grander proportions in the age of nuclear terrorism – which by its very nature would petrify populations the world over, leading citizens to cower under the Bush umbrella of power.

Noam Chomsky: Wrong question, in my opinion. They were carrying out far more serious crimes, against Americans as well, before 9/11 -- crimes that literally threaten human survival. They may well resort to further crimes if activists here prefer not to deal with them and to focus their attention on arcane and dubious theories about 9/11.

- extract, quoted:

http://www.oilempire.us/chomsky.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"The smart way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly limit the spectrum of acceptable opinion, but allow very lively debate within that spectrum. - Noam Chomsky

[Dave Rogers]

Well, what I mean is, there are all these videos about Niels Harrit and not really anything debunking him.

I was gonna try to debunk him myself despite the fact I'm not all the clued up on the chemistry aspects of the situation, but I'm waiting for a truther to who said he was gonna make a video proving why thermite was "100%" proven to demolish the towers. So far he still hasn't made the video.

It's been discussed more or less to death here, and the forum has moved on, but there are some good resources in the thread, "New Thread to Discuss The Excellent Analysis of Jones latest paper", at http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=140017. In particular look for posts by Sunstealer, who has done an extraordinary amount of analysis of Harrit's work.

Dave

[JihadJane]

And yet it's the topic of eleven threads currently on the first page of this forum, and is still actively being pushed by Steven Jones, Niels Harrit, Richard Gage, Tony Szamboti, Graeme MacQueen, Heiwa, bill smith, Homeland Insurgency, and those are just the ones I can think of without looking it up. Take a look at The 9/11 Forum on freeforums; virtually the only topic of conversation between femr[whatever] and Major Tom is the minutiae of the collapse of the Twin Towers, in an attempt to find the one trifling anomaly that hasn't been explained in detail and hance can be falsely claimed as the ultimate proof of CD. Boredom with this obsessive behaviour is the main reason I don't read that forum any more. Your argument is a classic example of the No True Scotsman fallacy, but in this case you're excluding almost everyone north of Hadrian's Wall; the vain and hopeless attempts to prove the WTC collapses suspicious are still now, as they were in September 2001, the central delusion of the 9/11 truth movement, and this is instantly obvious to the casual observer.

Dave

You don't appear to have understood my point which was simply that scott.in.taiwan's observation that TM arguments haven't changed down the years doesn't match my own observation.

Far from remaining the same, there has been a dramatic shift towards focussing physical evidence..

For example, neither Michael C. Ruppert's 2004, 600+ page book on 911, Crossing the Rubicon: The Decline of the American Empire at the End of the Age of Oil (http://www.amazon.com/Crossing-Rubicon-Decline-American-Empire/dp/0865715408) nor Paul Thompson's 9/11 Timeline (http://www.historycommons.org/) (The Terror Timeline: Year by Year, Day by Day, Minute by Minute: A Comprehensive Chronicle of the Road to 9/11--and America's Response (http://www.amazon.com/Terror-Timeline-Comprehensive-Chronicle-11/dp/0060783389/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1248777070&sr=1-1)) and the related DVD 9/11: Press for Truth (http://www.amazon.com/11-Press-Truth-Paul-Thompson/dp/B000GYHRHO/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1248777434&sr=8-1) focus on physical evidence.

[Dave Rogers]

You don't appear to have understood my point which was simply that scott.in.taiwan's observation that TM arguments haven't changed down the years doesn't match my own observation.

Far from remaining the same, there has been a dramatic shift towards focussing physical evidence..

For example, neither Michael C. Ruppert's 2004, 600+ page book on 911, Crossing the Rubicon: The Decline of the American Empire at the End of the Age of Oil (http://www.amazon.com/Crossing-Rubicon-Decline-American-Empire/dp/0865715408) and Paul Thompson's 9/11 Timeline (http://www.historycommons.org/) (The Terror Timeline: Year by Year, Day by Day, Minute by Minute: A Comprehensive Chronicle of the Road to 9/11--and America's Response (http://www.amazon.com/Terror-Timeline-Comprehensive-Chronicle-11/dp/0060783389/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1248777070&sr=1-1)) and the related DVD 9/11: Press for Truth (http://www.amazon.com/11-Press-Truth-Paul-Thompson/dp/B000GYHRHO/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1248777434&sr=8-1) do not focus on the physical evidence.

So what you're saying is that the output of the truth movement in 2004 is a good guide to the output of the truth movement in 2009, and this is evidence that the output of the truth movement has changed over the years?

Dave

[T.A.M.]

You know, when I look at dozens of copies of Neils Harrits Danish television interview on nanothermite on YouTube, all with hundreds of thousands of views and all 5-starred to death... the troofer movement is not dead. Not by a long shot.

Of course, in the sense of "no one on earth believes in 9/11 CTs" it is not dead. What we mean is it is dead in terms of its effectiveness as a movement. They no longer garnish any significant TV coverage, they don't even get much coverage on the popular blogs any more. They have done nothing with regard to getting their "new investigation", and apart from one published article in a sham/scam vanity "journal", they have done nothing despite all their supposed "scientists and engineers" who back their theories.

They are "effectively" dead as a movement.

TAM:)

[JihadJane]

So what you're saying is that the output of the truth movement in 2004 is a good guide to the output of the truth movement in 2009, and this is evidence that the output of the truth movement has changed over the years?

Dave

No.

Perhaps you better re-read my earlier exchanges with scott.in.taiwan if you really seek clarity rather than confusion!

[Dave Rogers]

No.

Perhaps you better re-read my earlier exchanges with scott.in.taiwan if you really seek clarity rather than confusion!

I just find it hilarious that you're claiming that the emphasis of the truth movement has changed over the years, then cite a 2004 publication as a good example of current thinking. I can understand that you may have missed the irony.

Dave

[JihadJane]

I just find it hilarious that you're claiming that the emphasis of the truth movement has changed over the years, then cite a 2004 publication as a good example of current thinking. I can understand that you may have missed the irony.

Dave

I didn't cite a 2004 publication as a good example of current thinking. I cited it as an example of non-current thinking.

I hope that clears things up but that you will continue to enjoy your day.

[Dave Rogers]

I didn't cite a 2004 publication as a good example of current thinking. I cited it as an example of non-current thinking.

Ah, I see what you mean. You're right, I've completely misunderstood what you're trying to say.

So your argument is that current thinking is to focus on issues such as the minutiae of the WTC collapses, an approach which was felt (you feel correctly) to be a red herring in the earlier days of the movement. Therefore, by your standards, is the truth movement in fact regressing rather than progressing?

I'd also query your subjective judgement that analysis of physical evidence was always felt to be counterproductive, or that it was never a major topic in the early years of the movement. I would cite, for example, Jim Hoffman's extensive, though fallacious, studies of the dust clouds from 2003/4, work which many 9/11 conspiracy theorists have cited as inspiration.

Dave

[twinstead]

Jane I still suspect you know full-well that many of these so-called truthers are a little touched in the head, and since you are really not qualified to make any legitimate judgments on their science, the only reason you support them is from an ideological standpoint. I just don't see you as the crazy paranoid type, just an ideologue.

Strange bedfellows indeed.

[eirik]

I grant that it probably doesn’t take much research to master the characteristic playground language of debunker juvenile deliquency but the way scott.in.taiwan has levered nearly every traditional debunker talking point and insult in his/her brief appearance gives a strong impression of prepared articfice or, if not that, an impression of someone inexplicably keen to bond with the welcoming in-group

--------------------------------

re Chomsky:

One thing that appears to be be missing from the Chomsky discussion here is his insight that the attacks don’t matter because, in the context of the history of US-perpetrated terror and violence around the world the violence of 911 atrocity is not particulalrly significant except in terms of the number of simultaneous deaths and the fact that the victims weren’t in far off countries in South America, the Middle East, Central Asia etc etc.

In other words: Welcome, to the hyper-violent world of US foreign policy, US America.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Interviewer: if 9/11 was an inside job, then what’s to say that Bush Et Al., if cornered or not, wouldn't resort to another more heinous attack of grander proportions in the age of nuclear terrorism – which by its very nature would petrify populations the world over, leading citizens to cower under the Bush umbrella of power.

Noam Chomsky: Wrong question, in my opinion. They were carrying out far more serious crimes, against Americans as well, before 9/11 -- crimes that literally threaten human survival. They may well resort to further crimes if activists here prefer not to deal with them and to focus their attention on arcane and dubious theories about 9/11.

- extract, quoted:

http://www.oilempire.us/chomsky.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"The smart way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly limit the spectrum of acceptable opinion, but allow very lively debate within that spectrum. - Noam Chomsky

So he's basically saying what most in here are saying:

911 was not an inside job, and the ones who believe that are whackjobs, but there are certainly other and real aspects of the government that needs scrutiny and criticism.

OK, I lost track. How is this relevant to your argument that it WAS an inside job?

[twinstead]

911 was not an inside job, and the ones who believe that are whackjobs, but there are certainly other and real aspects of the government that needs scrutiny and criticism.


Great. Now we're all on the same sheet of music. Last one out turn off the lights.

[Comrade Raptor]

There's a handful of TM kooks on the eBay boards. They really don't care for this place. It's like holy water and sunlight to them, together at last!

The lengthy discussion on that board (which has been some three years now) evolved on almost precisely the same lines as it did here. And I didn't find this place until a couple of months back.

I would suspect that any discussion arena where logic and sense collide with the Troof Fairy Myth, it's pretty much going to turn out the same.

[Stellafane]

Unfortunately Stellafane it is true. You better start learnng to live with it rather than denying the obvious.

Learning to live with this? Are you kidding -- I'd love it if this were true! Just imagine it: Noam Chomsky, respected scholar (at least in some circles), believes that 9/11 was an inside job. And yet in his opinion Truthers -- people whom you would think Chomsky would support, since they're laboring so diligently (at least when it's not raining) to reveal the truth about perhaps the most heinous crime ever perpetrated on American soil -- are idiots! Now, it's bad enough when people like me, those firmly convinced that every Truther argument makes about as much sense as a castle built out of snot, those of us who think this weird little collection of pathetic nonentities have left sanity and reason and logic and reality itself far behind, are idiots. That you would expect. But when one of your supposed own, who far and away has more intellectual stature than the rest of the TM put together, calls you an idiot despite the fact that he actually agrees with you...well, that's something extra special.

As much as I would dearly love to believe the preceding is true, I'm afraid it's not. You see (and this may come as a shock, so prepare yourself), the universe isn't all just one big matter of opinion. Some things are true and others aren't. And when a person says he believes the 9/11 CT is utter crap and disses those who believe in it in the strongest, most unequivocal language, you don't come along and say "Oh but he really does believe in it" unless you have some evidence to back that up. And said evidence better be pretty amazingly compelling, since it would be up against the person's own words.

Oh, and one final irony: Although I can sort of see the Truthers trying to claim as their own someone who has yet to weigh in on 9/11, what does it say about them that they insist Chomsky is on their side, despite his emphatic and crystal clear declarations to the contrary? Do these guys like abuse or something?

[JihadJane]

Ah, I see what you mean. You're right, I've completely misunderstood what you're trying to say.

So your argument is that current thinking is to focus on issues such as the minutiae of the WTC collapses, an approach which was felt (you feel correctly) to be a red herring in the earlier days of the movement. Therefore, by your standards, is the truth movement in fact regressing rather than progressing?

Yes, but let's hope it's a temporary detour! It's encourging that activists can still unite for initiatives like NYC CAN to press for genuine investigation.

I'd also query your subjective judgement that analysis of physical evidence was always felt to be counterproductive, or that it was never a major topic in the early years of the movement. I would cite, for example, Jim Hoffman's extensive, though fallacious, studies of the dust clouds from 2003/4, work which many 9/11 conspiracy theorists have cited as inspiration.



Yes, for good or bad, Jim Hoffman was the physical evidence pioneer of the earlier days.





So he's basically saying what most in here are saying:

911 was not an inside job, and the ones who believe that are whackjobs, but there are certainly other and real aspects of the government that needs scrutiny and criticism.

OK, I lost track. How is this relevant to your argument that it WAS an inside job?

No, he's not saying the ones who believe are "whackjobs". That's debunkerese and Chomsky is not such a crude, playground propagandist.

He's saying that, in his opinion, it's very unlikely that 911 was an "Inside Job".

I quoted the extracts because Chomsky puts the 911 attacks into the broader context of US foreign policy crimes rarely acknowledged by most forum whackjobbists, may of whom still believe that the US worldwide military activity is all about spreading freedom and democracy to the less fortunate.

Understanding the history, extent and ruthlessness of US violence around the globe makes the claims of 911 having been an "Inside Job" look less extraordinary. From his own comments, it is apparent that Chomsky hasn't felt it necessary to look beyond his own worldview for insights into the genesis of 911 and only has a superficial knowledge of the various, confusing strands 911 skepticism. He did, however, add his signature to a 2007 petition written by the 9/11 “Jersey” widows calling for the release of classified documents relating to the 9/11 attacks.

[~enigma~]

Yes, but let's hope it's a temporary detour! It's encourging that activists can still unite for initiatives like NYC CAN to press for genuine investigation.
What better proof can we show that the entire bowel movement and the turds that inhabit it are a bunch of ineffective, impotent, lying cretins?

[JihadJane]

And yet in [Chomsky's] opinion Truthers ... are idiots!


Has Chomsky really called Truthers "idiots", Stellafane? If so, can you provide a reference so I don't have to put you on my ever-growing "I create my own reality" list.








ETA:

Hello ~enigma~.

[newton3376]

I quoted the extracts because Chomsky puts the 911 attacks into the broader context of US foreign policy crimes rarely acknowledged by most forum whackjobbists, may of whom still believe that the US worldwide military activity is all about spreading freedom and democracy to the less fortunate.

Who believes that?

The US does whats in its own best interest....just like every other country....

Understanding the history, extent and ruthlessness of US violence around the globe makes the claims of 911 having been an "Inside Job" look less extraordinary. From his own comments, it is apparent that Chomsky hasn't felt it necessary to look beyond his own worldview for insights into the genesis of 911 and only has a superficial knowledge of the various, confusing strands 911 skepticism. He did, however, add his signature to a 2007 petition written by the 9/11 “Jersey” widows calling for the release of classified documents relating to the 9/11 attacks.

Please spare me the "Da US is eeeeeeeeeeeeevil" crap....there is ruthlessness and violence all over the world......it's not like every other country besides the US is some peace loving innocent......there are plenty of people that want to do the US harm.

If talking with them will stop them then I say talk.
Breach of Rule 2

Your post has been edited wrt breach of Rule 2.

[twinstead]

You'll get used to JihadJane, newton3376. Every other country except the US that does something ruthless and violent has a good reason for it (and it's usually the US's fault anyway, somehow). Fortunately for rational people, the science and evidence of 911 precludes it being an inside job, no matter how feverishly people like Jane wish it didn't, and no matter WHAT THE US HAS DONE IN THE PAST.

[carlitos]

I didn't cite a 2004 publication as a good example of current thinking. I cited it as an example of non-current thinking.

I hope that clears things up but that you will continue to enjoy your day.
For the third time, let me ask you - How does the fact that the 9/11 "truth" movement evolved to ask different questions over 8 years make such a movement more credible?

[Longfellow]

I grant that it probably doesn’t take much research to master the characteristic playground language of debunker juvenile deliquency but the way scott.in.taiwan has levered nearly every traditional debunker talking point and insult in his/her brief appearance gives a strong impression of prepared articfice or, if not that, an impression of someone inexplicably keen to bond with the welcoming in-group---(snip)(sic)


No, JihadJane -- not at all.

What scott.in.taiwan has done is engaged in rational thinking. He's done what the vast (VAST!) majority of people do when first exposed to the '9/11 truth movement'. That is to say, he recognized it as dirt dumb [/beachnut mode] right off the bat. It only takes several minutes of dedicated searching for a rational person to see this. The fact that you haven't -- years later -- is quite telling.

That's all there is to it. He used his superior cognition (superior to that of some '9/11 truthers' at any rate) to reason, correctly, that the 'truth movement's' arguments, theories, and questions are rubbish -- have always been rubbish -- and always will be rubbish.

And as far as Chomsky goes; only those wearing the blinders of willful ignorance can read, listen, or watch Mr. Chomsky's comments on the '9/11 truth movement' and still think he's on their side. Mr. Chomsky thinks you people are nuts. It's quite amusing, actually. I guess I really should thank you et al for the years of grins.

Thank you!

And as far as people getting paid to debunk the '9/11 truth movement'?

:dl:

[Justin39640]

bill smith meets noam chomsky (or at least what it might be like)
fOIM1_xOSro

ZNet Sustainer:Considering the long history of false flag operations to wrongly justify wars, our most recent precedent being WMD in Iraq, The Gulf of Tonkin in Vietnam, going back much further to Pearl Harbor (FDR knowingly allowing the Japanese to bomb Pearl Harbor – which is different from false flag operations), to the 1898 Spanish-American War, to the 1846 Mexican-American War, to Andrew Jackson’s seizing of Seminole land in 1812 (aka Florida).

Noam Chomsky: The concept of "false flag operation" is not a very serious one, in my opinion. None of the examples you describe, or any other in history, has even a remote resemblance to the alleged 9/11 conspiracy. I'd suggest that you look at each of them carefully.

ZNet Sustainer: Lastly, as the world’s leading terror state, would it not surprise anyone if the US was capable of such an action? Would it surprise you? Do you think that so-called conspiracy theorists have anything worthy to present?
Noam Chomsky: I think the Bush administration would have had to be utterly insane to try anything like what is alleged, for their own narrow interests, and do not think that serious evidence has been provided to support claims about actions that would not only be outlandish, for their own interests, but that have no remote historical parallel. The effects, however, are all too clear, namely, what I just mentioned: diverting activism and commitment away from the very serious ongoing crimes of state.

yeah hes basically saying that you guys are morons for making so much noise about impossible things you dilute any attempt to get at real issues with the govt and things theyve done wrong

way to go "WOOOOO"

[newton3376]

You'll get used to JihadJane, newton3376. Every other country except the US that does something ruthless and violent has a good reason for it (and it's usually the US's fault anyway, somehow). Fortunately for rational people, the science and evidence of 911 precludes it being an inside job, no matter how feverishly people like Jane wish it didn't, and no matter WHAT THE US HAS DONE IN THE PAST.

Good point....although I'm not sure if I ever will get used to people like JihadJane...these people are simply baffling...

[SteveAustin]

1000, don't make me laugh. If you knew how many we've got stacked in the chute you would turn white in fear.

1000 was the original number of internet revisionist (I guess that's the polite term for paid government shill/disinformation agent) that were hired to spout the Official Conspiracy Theory on the internet. I guess you did not see the story that was leaked a week or two ago on this did you?

[SteveAustin]

Yup. We just HAVE to be paid disinfo agents. There's no other explanation. LOL

Twin, i've seen your posts. If they paid you do be a disinfo agent then they deserve a refund

[Stellafane]

Has Chomsky really called Truthers "idiots", Stellafane? If so, can you provide a reference so I don't have to put you on my ever-growing "I create my own reality" list.

Oooo! Oooo! I think I just made JihadJane's day, because rather than quote all the verbiage Chomsky used to diss Truthers (after all, language is the man's thing) I just summed it all up in the single word "idiots" -- which, although semantically accurate, isn't the precise word Chomsky used.

Of course, I wouldn't have thought JihadJane would really want to go there, because what Chomsky did say was pretty devastating to Truthers, if they did but know it. But since I've been called on it, let's take a look, shall we? For example:

...to evaluate the alleged evidence requires the kind of expert knowledge that can’t be picked up from surfing the internet: it requires substantial understanding of civil/mechanical engineering, the specific characteristics of the building, evaluation of photos, etc...And a story will also have to be told about the planes and passengers, the massive cover-up involving huge numbers of people and (miraculously) no leaks, and why the administration would have been so utterly insane as to try something like this (which hasn’t the remotest analogue in history).

...I should add, incidentally, that the arrogance is quite amazing. I can’t imagine telling you to drop this if you think it’s important and turning to the issues that seem of vastly higher priority to me, nor denouncing you as a CIA asset if you do not follow my injunctions. But that’s quite common in the “9/11 movement...

...There are submissions to the Journal of 9/11 Studies, but that's about as convincing as submissions to the Journal of Intelligent Design Studies.

[Bolding mine. Also, tip of the hat to Gravy for posting this earlier in this thread.] Oh by the way, that last bit, the comparison to the Journal of Intelligent Design Studies, that's not a compliment.

So OK, since you've accused me of "creating my own reality" -- what reality would you create out of Chomsky's words? Would you, like Bill Smith, somehow conclude that Chomsky in fact secretly believes that 9/11 was an inside job? Or would you take Chomsky at his words, that the whole idea would be "utterly insane," "hasn’t the remotest analogue in history," possesses "arrogance [that] is quite amazing," and is as "convincing as submissions to the Journal of Intelligent Design Studies"? Are those the words of a secret supporter? Or do they betray an opinion that the 9/11 CT movement is (dare I say it) idiotic?

[Dave Rogers]

1000 was the original number of internet revisionist (I guess that's the polite term for paid government shill/disinformation agent) that were hired to spout the Official Conspiracy Theory on the internet. I guess you did not see the story that was leaked a week or two ago on this did you?

Have you got a link? I'd like to see the fine detail.

Dave

[Foolmewunz]

1000 was the original number of internet revisionist (I guess that's the polite term for paid government shill/disinformation agent) that were hired to spout the Official Conspiracy Theory on the internet. I guess you did not see the story that was leaked a week or two ago on this did you?

I realize you're very busy out there interviewing people and stuff (you could film those 100% agree-with-you interviews, you know - YouTube is just perfect for that kind of stuff), but if you'd condescend to post a link to that "leaked" story, it'd sure be appreciated. And it would bring oh so much credibility to your movement, too.

[T.A.M.]

There's a handful of TM kooks on the eBay boards. They really don't care for this place. It's like holy water and sunlight to them, together at last!

The lengthy discussion on that board (which has been some three years now) evolved on almost precisely the same lines as it did here. And I didn't find this place until a couple of months back.

I would suspect that any discussion arena where logic and sense collide with the Troof Fairy Myth, it's pretty much going to turn out the same.

Yah, in a recent poll of truthers they basically labeled us the holy water, and Mark Roberts (Gravy here) as Van Helsing.

TAM:)

[SteveAustin]

I prefer to call them 'concerned citizens' and I recommend that they look at these links to see how governments target social media forums such as this one.

http://www.sheilacasey.com/2009/01/paid-blog-attack-armies-flood-blogs-with-comments.html article
http://haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1056648.html Zionist bloggers
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=awy8cmcuBlk&feature=related video on cointelpro

PS.
http://georgewashington2.blogspot.com/2009/01/government-heavily-manipulates-social.html CENTCOM,USAF

Bill, Bill, Bill...HOW DARE YOU SHOW TAM UP!!! How dare you show these people what they are not supposed to see.

In the cult of "debunking" there is no paid disinfo. There are no paid "professional" bloggers out spouting the Official Conspiracy Theory and "debunking" anyone that questions the government story.

You posting that is going to shatter the world of the cult members and make it a lot harder for the paid disinfo agents to do their jobs. They only want to do their jobs. It doesn't matter that their jobs is to promote and defend the lies spouted by the murderers of 3000 people on 9/11 and a further 1.5 million since around the world, because at least it's a job that pays the bills, and at least it's not their kids getting murdered for a lie.

[Longfellow]

1000 was the original number of internet revisionist (I guess that's the polite term for paid government shill/disinformation agent) that were hired to spout the Official Conspiracy Theory on the internet. I guess you did not see the story that was leaked a week or two ago on this did you?


Emphasis mine.

I would like to see proof (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/proof) that people were (or are) actually hired to discredit the '9/11 truth movement'. To realists the 'truth movement' is self-discrediting.

[Justin39640]

Have you got a link? I'd like to see the fine detail.

Dave

id love to see that too lol

when all else fails accuse people on the internet of being agents

i wonder if he thinks theres a govt run cubicle farm dedicated to posting on 911 youtube comments and forums (we better move it, hes catching on)

[Lupie]

I'd like to be a Disinfo Agent, it sounds like a challenging and rewarding career. Anyone know where to sign up? Maybe they will be at the upcoming jobfair. I wonder what kind of benefits package they offer.

[Justin39640]

I'd like to be a Disinfo Agent, it sounds like a challenging and rewarding career. Anyone know where to sign up? Maybe they will be at the upcoming jobfair. I wonder what kind of benefits package they offer.

free broadband :)

[SteveAustin]

Also, there are a lot more debunkers on this subforum than truthers. The odds that a debunker will see and have a response to a truther's claim soon after it is made are a lot higher than the reverse.

Logic, SteveAustin. It's actually useful.

WTH are you talking about? Did you just make something up so you could try and quote "logic" to me? Because you have not said a thing I didn't already know. I know your cult is much populated here on JREF than the "truthers".

So what's this "logic" thing you are talking about when you say "The odds that a debunker will see and have a response to a truther's claim soon after it is made are a lot higher than the reverse."?

Have I said somewhere that this is not the case?

[carlitos]

1000 was the original number of internet revisionist (I guess that's the polite term for paid government shill/disinformation agent) that were hired to spout the Official Conspiracy Theory on the internet. I guess you did not see the story that was leaked a week or two ago on this did you?
SteveAustin, please try to keep focus. You were just about to post a link to a 'leaked' story that details how 1000 disinfo agents were hired by the US Government to debunk conspiracy theories on the internet.

[SteveAustin]

You know, when I look at dozens of copies of Neils Harrits Danish television interview on nanothermite on YouTube, all with hundreds of thousands of views and all 5-starred to death... the troofer movement is not dead. Not by a long shot.

Shhhhh, you are not supposed to mention these things, because then you make it so that the cult HAS to come out and make some sort of "ridiculing" comment about it to try and write it off (note that by ridiculing something like this a person's subconscious mind will likely dismiss it in order to avoid being associated with ridicule. Which is why ridicule works so well for the cult of "debunkers")

[Foolmewunz]

So you'll be posting that leaked document on the 1000 agents soon, then, Steve? I'm really looking forward to this.

[Lupie]

free broadband :)

Cool! I'm in! I've been "spouting the official story" for some time now. I figure I might as well get paid and maybe get dental coverage for my efforts. And I really want one of those secret decoder ring thingies. I wonder if they have a secret handshake that they do...

[DavidJames]

I did ORIGINALLY come here to debate...That's complete crap. You came here with your list of 38 debating tactics you parroted over and over again.

The fact is, you don't have the intellectual capacity to debate. All you (and BillSmith, HI, Red, runlike, etc.) can do is parrot 9/11 website nonsense. You can cut and paste. That's the extent of your ability to debate.

I'm embarrassed for people like you.

[johnny karate]

1000 was the original number of internet revisionist (I guess that's the polite term for paid government shill/disinformation agent) that were hired to spout the Official Conspiracy Theory on the internet. I guess you did not see the story that was leaked a week or two ago on this did you?

I did ORIGINALLY come here to debate, but you can't debate when half the people you are trying to debate with are paid disinformation agents and the other half brain dead cult followers, so now I come for the entertainment

You posting that is going to shatter the world of the cult members and make it a lot harder for the paid disinfo agents to do their jobs. They only want to do their jobs. It doesn't matter that their jobs is to promote and defend the lies spouted by the murderers of 3000 people on 9/11 and a further 1.5 million since around the world, because at least it's a job that pays the bills, and at least it's not their kids getting murdered for a lie.

Sides... aching... from... THE LAUGHTER...

Please, please, please Mr. Austin: Don't ever stop. I don't care if this is some elaborate put-on, it's still PURE COMEDIC GOLD.

Also, just an FYI: bill smith has expressed a belief that elements of the FDNY were involved in the supposed 9/11 conspiracy, so in cozying up to him, you're keeping it hilarious and classy. Nice work, champ!

[SteveAustin]

Scott,

Welcome my friend. Make youself at home.

If you REALLY wanna see just how disrespectful "truthers" can be, waatch this video.

Warning: Its got 90 curse words in 8:53 seconds, so be prepared.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFf-buObxl8

Watched it?? Good. Did you notice the bells in the background?? Yep, those are church bells from the Church near GZ. Guess what?? They aare in the MIDDLE of the cermony for the 3000 deaths on 9/11.

These sub-human lifeforms decided to attack at firefighter DURING this time. He is paying his ******* respects!! Leaave him alone DAMMIT!!

[/rant] [/off soapbox]

Don't you all just love how the cult always always always has to try and discredit the truth movement by talking about these little acts of disrespect?

What about all the cult members who have called for "truthers" to be jailed or even murdered?

Do the cult of "debunkers" ever stop to think about how disrespectful it is to tell family members they are nuts, looney and do not have the right to find justice for their loved ones that died on 9/11? No of course the cult doesn't think about that, or at least they don't bother to mention it, as that would get in the way of a good slime.

Steve Austin,

I figured it out in about 3 months that the TM uses the same BS over and over and over again. Its fairly simple. Click on page 101 of the 9/11 Conspiracy Theories thread, and look at the titles of the threads. Now, click on page 1. See a pattern??? Not hard eh???

And yes, I had heard about the "truth" movement before 3 months ago, I just didn't know that they were so disrespectfull as to blame the FDNY for killing the people in the towers. That is whan I got really into it.

tri, what are you trying to say? That the truth movement has not come up with anything new? Well we all know that's a lie, but let's pretend for a minute it's true, does that make any difference? Of course not, just because we figured these things out 5 years ago does not make it any less valid today. Just because JREF claims something has been debunked really does not mean a thing in the real world.

And now tri brings up the old straw man argument in a further smear attempt by claiming that the truth movement blames the FDNY for killing people in the towers. I for one, who has been a "truther" since 9/18/01 have never heard this from a single truther anywhere, only heard it from your cult tri

[carlitos]

Focus SteveAustin!
SteveAustin, please try to keep focus. You were just about to post a link to a 'leaked' story that details how 1000 disinfo agents were hired by the US Government to debunk conspiracy theories on the internet.

[carlitos]

Steve, if you can't post a link to the story, could you maybe copy and paste it from your files? Thanks!

[carlitos]

Steve, how about just posting a couple of hundred names from the list of 1000? Thanks in advance!:)

[SteveAustin]

They are "effectively" dead as a movement.

TAM:)

Keep repeating that mantra

[carlitos]

SteveAustin, I have cleared half an hour from my schedule this morning to review that article, could you please post the link before noon eastern time? Thanks in advance!

[SteveAustin]

No.

Perhaps you better re-read my earlier exchanges with scott.in.taiwan if you really seek clarity rather than confusion!

JihadJane, you already know that Dave does not seek clarity, what he seeks IS confusion. That's one of the main tactics, confuse the argument, because when an argument becomes too confusing a person will most likely simply believe "authority" over anything else, it's how the mind works.

"***** man this is all too confusing for me, i'm just going to go back to watching my football game and let the government deal with it"

[Foolmewunz]

Ya know, Steve, seeing as to how you're obviously here and all and not out busy interviewing and stuff, some people may come to the conclusion that you actually don't have any such leaked document to link to.

Not me, of course, because I know a noble truth warrior wouldn't just make up crap out of whole cloth, so I reckon you'll be getting around to posting that link or copy of the document any second now, right?

Right, Steve?

Steve?

Steve?

[~enigma~]

SteveAustin, I have cleared half an hour from my schedule this morning to review that article, could you please post the link before noon eastern time? Thanks in advance!
I really hope you don't expect an answer.

[Foolmewunz]

I really hope you don't expect an answer.

Surely you're not saying that Steve is being disingenuous about having read that article, are you?

[johnny karate]

1000 was the original number of internet revisionist (I guess that's the polite term for paid government shill/disinformation agent) that were hired to spout the Official Conspiracy Theory on the internet. I guess you did not see the story that was leaked a week or two ago on this did you?

Bolded my favorite part out of so much hilarious Truthy goodness. The implication being that this 1000 Internet Shill "story" broke in Time Magazine as opposed to being scrawled on the wall of some alley in fecal matter.

[Lupie]

And now tri brings up the old straw man argument in a further smear attempt by claiming that the truth movement blames the FDNY for killing people in the towers. I for one, who has been a "truther" since 9/18/01 have never heard this from a single truther anywhere, only heard it from your cult tri

Triforcharity was wearing an FDNY tee-shirt recently when he was accosted at a convenience store by a truther screaming "murderer", and who ended up being arrested and charged with a felony. He was physically blocking Triforcharity and his family from leaving by standing behind his vehicle and hoping to be either run over, or to get into a physical altercation. I guess he didn't get the "truthers don't blame the FDNY" memo.

L.

[johnny karate]

I really hope you don't expect an answer.

Surely you're not saying that Steve is being disingenuous about having read that article, are you?

Steve won't let us down now. I'm sure he's got some goofy nonsense he can link.

Come on, Steve! We're counting on you!

[Dave Rogers]

JihadJane, you already know that Dave does not seek clarity, what he seeks IS confusion.

Steve, on the other hand, seeks to understand the events of 9/11 with perfect clarity by refusing to discuss them.

Dave

[eirik]

StevieAustin, feel free to post the link to the information about the 1000 shills. Sounds very interesting.

[bill smith]

I grant that it probably doesn’t take much research to master the characteristic playground language of debunker juvenile deliquency but the way scott.in.taiwan has levered nearly every traditional debunker talking point and insult in his/her brief appearance gives a strong impression of prepared articfice or, if not that, an impression of someone inexplicably keen to bond with the welcoming in-group

--------------------------------

re Chomsky:

One thing that appears to be be missing from the Chomsky discussion here is his insight that the attacks don’t matter because, in the context of the history of US-perpetrated terror and violence around the world the violence of 911 atrocity is not particulalrly significant except in terms of the number of simultaneous deaths and the fact that the victims weren’t in far off countries in South America, the Middle East, Central Asia etc etc.

In other words: Welcome, to the hyper-violent world of US foreign policy, US America.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Interviewer: if 9/11 was an inside job, then what’s to say that Bush Et Al., if cornered or not, wouldn't resort to another more heinous attack of grander proportions in the age of nuclear terrorism – which by its very nature would petrify populations the world over, leading citizens to cower under the Bush umbrella of power.

Noam Chomsky: Wrong question, in my opinion. They were carrying out far more serious crimes, against Americans as well, before 9/11 -- crimes that literally threaten human survival. They may well resort to further crimes if activists here prefer not to deal with them and to focus their attention on arcane and dubious theories about 9/11.

- extract, quoted:

http://www.oilempire.us/chomsky.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"The smart way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly limit the spectrum of acceptable opinion, but allow very lively debate within that spectrum. - Noam Chomsky

Very interesting Jane.

[johnny karate]

StevieAustin, feel free to post the link to the information about the 1000 shills. Sounds very interesting.

Where you at Steve?

[SteveAustin]

Please spare me the "Da US is eeeeeeeeeeeeevil" crap....there is ruthlessness and violence all over the world......it's not like every other country besides the US is some peace loving innocent......there are plenty of people that want to do the US harm.

Are you really trying to justify the pure evil actions of the US by saying "well they do it as well"?

Didn't that excuse go out with 2nd grade?

Yes there are plenty of people that want to do the US harm, but you need to ask yourself why that is?

Why do other countries hate the US so much? Could it be because for the past 100 years in one way or another, in one country or another the US has been murdering their men, women and children? No? OH YA, I FORGOT, THEY HATE US FOR OUR FREEDOMS (the very same freedoms we no longer have since the patriot act I and patriot act II and the military commissions act and....)

[funk de fino]

Are you really trying to justify the pure evil actions of the US by saying "well they do it as well"?

Didn't that excuse go out with 2nd grade?

Yes there are plenty of people that want to do the US harm, but you need to ask yourself why that is?

Why do other countries hate the US so much? Could it be because for the past 100 years in one way or another, in one country or another the US has been murdering their men, women and children? No? OH YA, I FORGOT, THEY HATE US FOR OUR FREEDOMS (the very same freedoms we no longer have since the patriot act I and patriot act II and the military commissions act and....)

A lot of fellow non americans hated the US because they voted in that clown Bush twice. Now hes gone, its back to some good lovin....

You go that linkie yet, I would like to read it?

[eirik]

(snipped for evading the subject by spouting even more crazy ideas)

:dig:

[carlitos]

SteveAustin, you have said that the US gov't hired 1000 'disinfo agents' to argue the "Official Conspiracy Theory" on the internet, and that there was a 'leaked' story about it. Could you kindly post a link or source? Thanks!:)

[johnny karate]

Are you really trying to justify the pure evil actions of the US by saying "well they do it as well"?

Didn't that excuse go out with 2nd grade?

Yes there are plenty of people that want to do the US harm, but you need to ask yourself why that is?

Why do other countries hate the US so much? Could it be because for the past 100 years in one way or another, in one country or another the US has been murdering their men, women and children? No? OH YA, I FORGOT, THEY HATE US FOR OUR FREEDOMS (the very same freedoms we no longer have since the patriot act I and patriot act II and the military commissions act and....)

Where's that 1000 Internet Shills story? Come on buddy, I'm pulling for you! Everyone else thinks you're just a lying nutjob, but I feel confident you'll serve up the goods.

[Alt+F4]

I'd like to be a Disinfo Agent, it sounds like a challenging and rewarding career. Anyone know where to sign up? Maybe they will be at the upcoming jobfair. I wonder what kind of benefits package they offer.

Go to Craig's List
Find the Jobs Category
Find the Sub-Category: Nefarious Conspiracies of Epic Proportions

Benefits include a free conversion to Judaism.

[newton3376]

Are you really trying to justify the pure evil actions of the US by saying "well they do it as well"?

There isn't anything to "justify"....

The US is a COUNTRY not a charity....we do whats in our own best interest JUST LIKE EVERY OTHER COUNTRY.

Stop your crying...

Didn't that excuse go out with 2nd grade?

There is nothing to excuse.

The FACT that each country does bad things is an observation not a justification for anything...

The US doesn't have to justify ANYTHING to any other country...just like they don't have to justify anything to us.

Yes there are plenty of people that want to do the US harm, but you need to ask yourself why that is?

Grow up. We live in a big wide world where everyone is competing for the same resources......there aren't any simple answers for why various nations hate or like other nations....

No simple answers and no simple solutions....this is the real life world we live in....its complex and cruel.

Why do other countries hate the US so much? Could it be because for the past 100 years in one way or another, in one country or another the US has been murdering their men, women and children? No? OH YA, I FORGOT, THEY HATE US FOR OUR FREEDOMS (the very same freedoms we no longer have since the patriot act I and patriot act II and the military commissions act and....)

We murder them they murder us...and on and on it goes....there isn't a "good guy" or 'bad guy" here.....just each country trying to do whats in its own best interest.....so spare me the drama....

What freedoms have you personally lost because of the patriot act? How has the patriot affected you personally? Please tell me....I'm dying to know...

[carlitos]

Well, that's my time window. I'll come back and check later. SteveAustin, if you don't have the link, the names, or a snapshot of the article, maybe you could just summarize for us? Thanks in advance! :)

[bill smith]

stop trying to make yourself feel better. You are not worth my time, even if you were a disinfo agent.

The fact that all of you limit yourselves to JREF means you have no credibility in the real world...so no need to "expose" you.

I just come here to laugh at you and see what other looney theories and justifications the cult of "debunkers" comes up with.

I did ORIGINALLY come here to debate, but you can't debate when half the people you are trying to debate with are paid disinformation agents and the other half brain dead cult followers, so now I come for the entertainment

I have a facourite phrase for he two types of debunker that covers it quite well I think. ''Shills 'n Saps'

[SteveAustin]

Steve, on the other hand, seeks to understand the events of 9/11 with perfect clarity by refusing to discuss them.

Dave

I have discussed them with far better people than you.

I have discussed them with more people than you can count.

But tell my why I would bother to "debate" anything here on JREF? A forum with paid disinfo agents and a cult following that all dutifully jumps on any "truther" for anything. It doesn't matter what the "truther" is talking about, all that is important is that 15 cult members jump on the "truther" with insults and ridicule and outright lies.

JREF is not a place for debates, not when even the mods are cult members.

So you want a debate? why not go join that BBC blog debate I posted half a dozen times here already, that debate is already over 3300 posts and it desperately needs more "debunker" cult members to join up as the last one left in disgrace back on January 21st. (and this was the guy who kept promoting JREF...LOLZ)

[tsig]

I grant that it probably doesn’t take much research to master the characteristic playground language of debunker juvenile deliquency but the way scott.in.taiwan has levered nearly every traditional debunker talking point and insult in his/her brief appearance gives a strong impression of prepared articfice or, if not that, an impression of someone inexplicably keen to bond with the welcoming in-group

--------------------------------

re Chomsky:

One thing that appears to be be missing from the Chomsky discussion here is his insight that the attacks don’t matter because, in the context of the history of US-perpetrated terror and violence around the world the violence of 911 atrocity is not particulalrly significant except in terms of the number of simultaneous deaths and the fact that the victims weren’t in far off countries in South America, the Middle East, Central Asia etc etc.

In other words: Welcome, to the hyper-violent world of US foreign policy, US America.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Interviewer: if 9/11 was an inside job, then what’s to say that Bush Et Al., if cornered or not, wouldn't resort to another more heinous attack of grander proportions in the age of nuclear terrorism – which by its very nature would petrify populations the world over, leading citizens to cower under the Bush umbrella of power.

Noam Chomsky: Wrong question, in my opinion. They were carrying out far more serious crimes, against Americans as well, before 9/11 -- crimes that literally threaten human survival. They may well resort to further crimes if activists here prefer not to deal with them and to focus their attention on arcane and dubious theories about 9/11.

- extract, quoted:

http://www.oilempire.us/chomsky.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"The smart way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly limit the spectrum of acceptable opinion, but allow very lively debate within that spectrum. - Noam Chomsky

Why are you suggesting that there was a conspiracy to bring a new poster here?

[SteveAustin]

There isn't anything to "justify"....

The US is a COUNTRY not a charity....we do whats in our own best interest JUST LIKE EVERY OTHER COUNTRY.

Stop your crying...



There is nothing to excuse.

The FACT that each country does bad things is an observation not a justification for anything...



Grow up. We live in a big wide world where everyone is competing for the same resources......there aren't any simple answers for why various nations hate or like other nations....

No simple answers and no simple solutions....this is the real life world we live in....its complex and cruel.



We murder them they murder us...and on and on it goes....there isn't a "good guy" or 'bad guy" here.....just each country trying to do whats in its own best interest.....so spare me the drama....

What freedoms have you personally lost because of the patriot act? How has the patriot affected you personally? Please tell me....I'm dying to know...

The justifications continue. And yes there are some very simple answers as to why some people want to hurt the US and if you don't ask yourself why that is then you are stuck in the US PURE GOOD crap and never does anything wrong.

Tell me, how many countries have invaded other countries in the past 50 years? Please list them!

The US doesn't have to justify ANYTHING to any other country...just like they don't have to justify anything to us.

This is a whopper, you might want to tell that to the US government because they didnt' get the memo.

That also means that there was no justification for invading Iraq nor for invading Afghanistan, nor for threathening to invade Iran or any other country for that matter.

What's your take on israel's and US's insistance on Iran complying with the NNPT? If no other country needs to justify anything to the US then why is the US doing this?

[SteveAustin]

I have a facourite phrase for he two types of debunker that covers it quite well I think. ''Shills 'n Saps'

Hehe I like that

[tsig]

Twin, i've seen your posts. If they paid you do be a disinfo agent then they deserve a refund

Which posters do you think are shills? Gravy? Mckay? tfk? me?