Mother prays while child dies of treatable diabetes...

[headscratcher4]

If only there was a hell....from the AP.

Mom who prayed for ill girl: Sin causes sickness
Jul 28th, 2009 | WAUSAU, Wis. -- The mother of an 11-year-old Wisconsin girl who died of untreated diabetes says sickness is caused by sin and can be cured by God.

Leilani Neumann took the witness stand Tuesday in her husband's trial. Dale Neumann is charged with second-degree reckless homicide for praying instead of rushing his daughter to the doctor.

Leilani Neumann was convicted of the same charge in May. She faces up to 25 years in prison when she is sentenced Oct. 6.

The mother testified that she realized her daughter was seriously ill on March 22, 2008, the day before Madeline died. She says she was worried because the girl was pale and weak. The mother testified she could not remember hearing the girl speak clearly.

She says the family's response to the girl's condition was to pray for her.

[zerospeaks]

I guess jesus doesn't save after all.

[pakeha]

A dreadful story.
http://endtimespropheticwords.wordpress.com/2009/05/28/leilani-neumann-says-prayer-death-trial-was-unfair/

Follow the link if you want to read the mum's reaction to her daughter's death
And that of a surviving sibling.

[pakeha]

here's a bit more:http://www.wausaudailyherald.com/article/20090728/WDH0101/90728076

It reads as though the woman thinks the child was ill-wished?
Hs no one explained what diabetes is to her?

And lastly, from the mother's own blog, written before the death of her daghter.
http://www.americaslastdays.com/?page=theyshall-leilani

The website is amazing.

[supercorgi]

You know, if I believed in god and hell and all that malarky, I really, really wish god would reserve a special place in hell for people like this. Why did god give them brains if they weren't going to use them?

[Rasmus]

You know, if I believed in god and hell and all that malarky, I really, really wish god would reserve a special place in hell for people like this. Why did god give them brains if they weren't going to use them?

If there really *was* a loving, omniscient, omnipotent god - what more or better could you be expected to be doing than to appeal to him for help?

Why would I bother to even bring my child to a doctor? It wouldn'*t matter if i did or not, as the child would get better if and only if god wanted it to. And if god wanted it to get better, there would be nothing left for me to do and nothing i could do0 to stop the child from getting better, either. Likewise, if god wanted my child to die, not only would that be fully justified and acceptable, but taking it to a doctor wouldn't make a lick of a difference.

Why are deluded people expected to all of a sudden be able to make rational decisions?

[Pure Argent]

Stuff like this makes me sick.

[bokonon]

If there really *was* a loving, omniscient, omnipotent god - what more or better could you be expected to be doing than to appeal to him for help?

Why would I bother to even bring my child to a doctor? It wouldn'*t matter if i did or not, as the child would get better if and only if god wanted it to. And if god wanted it to get better, there would be nothing left for me to do and nothing i could do0 to stop the child from getting better, either. Likewise, if god wanted my child to die, not only would that be fully justified and acceptable, but taking it to a doctor wouldn't make a lick of a difference.

Why are deluded people expected to all of a sudden be able to make rational decisions?
Yes, exactly.

The mother seems to believe that God called her daughter home while she still believed, rather than let her live on this fallen mud-ball and be tempted away from faith, thus losing her heavenly reward. It's sad.

I understand that Wisconsin law prevents parents from being prosecuted for neglect or abuse if they choose to treat their child's illness solely with prayer, so I'm not sure how solid the legal basis is for this prosecution. I think the parents were charged with "Reckless Homicide" instead of neglect to bypass this exemption.

[ponderingturtle]

Yes, exactly.

The mother seems to believe that God called her daughter home while she still believed, rather than let her live on this fallen mud-ball and be tempted away from faith, thus losing her heavenly reward. It's sad.

I understand that Wisconsin law prevents parents from being prosecuted for neglect or abuse if they choose to treat their child's illness solely with prayer, so I'm not sure how solid the legal basis is for this prosecution. I think the parents were charged with "Reckless Homicide" instead of neglect to bypass this exemption.

That is not uncommon. It is common in the US that this is legal until the child dies when it becomes manslaughter. There are even a few states where it is entirely legal to kill your kids in this fashion.

[Rasmus]

That is not uncommon. It is common in the US that this is legal until the child dies when it becomes manslaughter. There are even a few states where it is entirely legal to kill your kids in this fashion.

Sadly, that makes sense, too. Otherwise, you would have to take custody away from each and every parents that holds a believe that is stupid enough that it might ever endanger the life of the child. That might be quite a few children ...

But you cannot really allow parents to withhold treatment to the child for so long and then turn around and whine when they end up dead because of it. If you allow people to let their beliefs to take precedent of the well-being of their children you simply have to accept that a number of them will die because of it.

Short of allowing nobody to raise their own children you have to go and draw a line somewhere, of course. And that might not be easy. But the line ought to be drawn a lot sooner than where you have to deal with the dead body of some innocent kid.

[ponderingturtle]

Sadly, that makes sense, too. Otherwise, you would have to take custody away from each and every parents that holds a believe that is stupid enough that it might ever endanger the life of the child. That might be quite a few children ...

Oh no, not at all. The belief needs to be a religious belief, some other woo belief would get the children yanked right away. The law forbids neglect charges if the cause stemed from a religious reason.

It is the priviliging of religion that is the issue here, not parental rights.

[Rasmus]

Oh no, not at all. The belief needs to be a religious belief, some other woo belief would get the children yanked right away. The law forbids neglect charges if the cause stemed from a religious reason.

It is the priviliging of religion that is the issue here, not parental rights.

Right.

It is a problem that the line is drawn much further out to accommodate religion than it would be for any other reason.

Still, I primarily wanted to acknowledge that drawing a definite line is not necessarily easy but that this would be no excude to draw that particular line where it is currently drawn.

Also, my main concern is that we leave people keep children who openly express views that might very well turn out bad for the kids once acted upon.

[Starthinker]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090729/ap_on_re_us/us_prayer_death

How many times does this have to happen?

[Safe-Keeper]

Neumann also told the detective that "sickness is a result of sin" and that his daughter's death had not shaken his faith.
Prayer saves life: Halleluja, God is with us! Gain 1 Faith.
Prayer does not work, child dies: God did it for a reason. Faith unaffected.

I'm sure there are lots of medical doctors who would love it if it worked that way for them, too. "Malpractice? Just because I refused to heal his cancer? Don't you arrogant non-doctors realize that maybe I had a reason, a plan, when I let her die?!". Makes me glad humanity holds fellow humans to a far higher standard than God will ever, ever, ever come close to.

[Monketey Ghost]

"Power of prayer"...

When we lost our first child, stillborn, we had many people express religious sympathies.

Except for the priest my wife's family brought in that day to bless the child. My wife wanted him to put holy water on our son. The Priest would not; he said, I quote, "Baptism is only for the living."

If she had the strength, she'd have killed the guy on the spot. That was the last day my wife had any religious interests at all.

[MattusMaximus]

Nothing fails like prayer...

[ParrotPirate]

Update: the father is on trial now,similar charges. The mother called as witness still believes illness is caused by sin and only God can heal it. I really wish we had the death penalty in Wisconsin. These idiots should be fried.

[godless dave]

"Power of prayer"...

When we lost our first child, stillborn, we had many people express religious sympathies.

Except for the priest my wife's family brought in that day to bless the child. My wife wanted him to put holy water on our son. The Priest would not; he said, I quote, "Baptism is only for the living."

Was he Catholic? I'm finding it hard to reconcile this with the idea that life begins at conception and abortion is murder.

[fromdownunder]

So presumably, according to this couple's view, all medical doctors are Satan's handiwork?

Norm

[MattusMaximus]

Update: the father is on trial now,similar charges. The mother called as witness still believes illness is caused by sin and only God can heal it. I really wish we had the death penalty in Wisconsin. These idiots should be fried.

I want these people to really put their faith on the line. It's easy to just sit back and pray when it's somebody else whose life is at stake, but very different when it's your own ass.

So, what I'd like to see is for this couple to forget all the lawyers, just fire their defense team. Instead they should sit quietly in the courtroom and pray that God will intervene and represent them. If their faith is strong, they'll be acquitted because if God can play doctor, then I'm sure God can handle acting as a lawyer as well.

How much you want to bet these morons will stick with the lawyers? Hypocrites.

[Rasmus]

I want these people to really put their faith on the line. It's easy to just sit back and pray when it's somebody else whose life is at stake, but very different when it's your own ass.

So, what I'd like to see is for this couple to forget all the lawyers, just fire their defense team. Instead they should sit quietly in the courtroom and pray that God will intervene and represent them. If their faith is strong, they'll be acquitted because if God can play doctor, then I'm sure God can handle acting as a lawyer as well.

How much you want to bet these morons will stick with the lawyers? Hypocrites.

Here's hoping the prosecution will use that line of questioning.

[linusrichard]

"What do you mean? I sent you three boats!"

[Raze]

[...] Why did god give them brains if they weren't going to use them?

If you read the Book of Job you will see that God really gets off on gambling to see if his "servants" will turn on him if inflicted with pain. So maybe God and Satan had another bet. Maybe it was something like this:


God says: "Alright Satan, I bet that if I take this praying woman's daughter despite the fact that she remained in my service, other Christians will STILL believe."

Satan thinks to himself, This is win win! Not only will the child die, but clearly, since God will be proven false to other Christians by not saving the child, they will also turn away...

Satan says: "Alright God, you're on. Bring it!"

Some time passes...

Then, the bet carries out, and the child dies. But... to Satan's horror, the Christians continue to believe without batting an eye!!!

God smiles smugly.

Satan says: "FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUuuuuuuuuu- "

[ParrotPirate]

Here's hoping the prosecution will use that line of questioning.

That would be cool,but I don't know if they'll think of it.

[zerospeaks]

Ok... food for thought guys!

Shoot my argument down!

*Argument:
This type of religious faith should be outlawed.


Takers?

[Rasmus]

Ok... food for thought guys!

Shoot my argument down!

*Argument:
This type of religious faith should be outlawed.


Takers?

Well, that's not an argument, of course. There's no reason or explanantion given as to why you would think so.

But, anyway (since it's quite obvious why you might):

Not a good idea. Thought crimes are not a good idea, much less so if they want to restrict the religious freedoms of those subject to the law. People can believe whatever the heck they want to, after all.

But: Take their children away from them before these people get a chance to murder them with their stupidity.

[zerospeaks]

So should I have said.

Outlaw parenting with such religious beliefs?

[Rasmus]

So should I have said.

Outlaw parenting with such religious beliefs?

Yes, I fully agree with that.

Holding certain beliefs make you dangerous to children you are responsible for, and that they are religious should not be an excuse.

[Darth Rotor]

Stuff like this makes me sick.
I'll pray for you.

[Darth Rotor]

Yes, I fully agree with that.

Holding certain beliefs make you dangerous to children you are responsible for, and that they are religious should not be an excuse

OK, I'll follow along and suggest that nobody who might have a car accident ought to have kids either, since kids die from car accidents.

Makes about as much sense as what you put up there.

DR

[zerospeaks]

OK, I'll follow along and suggest that nobody who might have a car accident ought to have kids either, since kids die from car accidents.

Ok, I'll follow along and suggest that nobody who practices car wrecks as part of their beliefs ought to have kids.

There, fixed that for you. Your analogy was flawed. Chance accident and purposeful endangerment are two completely different things.

[De_Bunk]

Yep...

Daughter dying...She don't need medical help...All you gotta do is pray...

It always works...

Thankyou baby Jeebus...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/8180116.stm

DB

[dafydd]

I suppose that some of you know more about this nutter's case than I do.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8180116.stm

[aggle-rithm]

I suppose that some of you know more about this nutter's case than I do.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8180116.stm

This guy had a very egocentric attitude. God would listen to HIS prayers, even though he clearly doesn't listen to most prayers.

After all, faith healing has been around for centuries, and people died young. Modern medicine has been around for quite a bit less time, and...well, you know.