Massive twoofer fail in NYC

[leftysergeant]

About that petition to put a new investigation of 9/11 on the ballot in New York? I have not found a direct link to the news story yet, but there were not enough valid signatures on it. It is dead.

Massive FAIL.

[Audible Click]

Good news! Not that I ever believed they'd get enough valid signatures.

[Justin39640]

Good news! Not that I ever believed they'd get enough valid signatures.

i still didnt think this was all woo
more about uncovering the mistakes made that allowed it to happen (not lihop)
and the covering up of those mistakes after the fact

im sure some woo pry-barred its way in but i guess theyd have to look at the possibility anyway to remain fair

[R.Mackey]

I thought they were foolishly counting the signatures from the last time they tried this, without realizing there's a time limit. Is that what happened, or is it even more pathetic?

[Thunder]

i still didnt think this was all woo
more about uncovering the mistakes made that allowed it to happen (not lihop)
and the covering up of those mistakes after the fact


BS....BS....BS.

this was ALL about proving that 9-11 was an Inside Job. Nothing more...nothing less.

oh..and:

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/WO0907/S00455.htm

it appears some County Clerk threw out the petition. who knows why.

[Hokulele]

...

oh..and:

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/WO0907/S00455.htm

...


Holy moly! They come across as batpoo crazy in their press releases as their adherents do in Internet posts.

ALL CAPS IN A PRESS RELEASE FTW!!!!!!!

[JoeyDonuts]

Well. Big round of applause for them.

[Thunder]

i love how some of the "questions" in their investigation deal with the dancing Joos in New Jersey and many other issues debunked LOOOOOOOONG ago.

boy these jokers are stupid. maybe the NYC Clerk threw out the petition...cause it was stupid and wasteful of the City's time???

=)

hmmm....why is it that only 13 of the possibly 30,000 survivors signed this thing???

13 out of 30,000 is...um..... .0033%

thats a very...very.......crappy percentage.

[Grizzly Bear]

Was there ever any surprise in what happened?

[JoeyDonuts]

You took your mask off to say that? You could have infused it with more drama, you know.

Perhaps a David Caruso-ism would have been in order, followed by the "Daltrey Scream."

[deep]

I thought they were foolishly counting the signatures from the last time they tried this, without realizing there's a time limit. Is that what happened, or is it even more pathetic?


I would be surprised if the older signatures were the problem, but there's certainly that possibility (see '9/11 investigation' thread for additional details).

I actually suspect they made some minor change(s) to the petition between campaigns. Either way - we'll find out soon enough.

[Orphia Nay]

Previous NYC Ballot initiative threads:

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=120891

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=114480

(We really need some merges happening.)


Here's a link to the ballot website:

http://www.nyccan.org/index.php

9/11 Blogger link to the story Parky posted above. 4 pages of comments. :oldroll:
http://www.911blogger.com/node/20743

[Justin39640]

BS....BS....BS.

this was ALL about proving that 9-11 was an Inside Job. Nothing more...nothing less.

oh..and:

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/WO0907/S00455.htm

it appears some County Clerk threw out the petition. who knows why.

or i could be wrong lol
that link is nuts
all caps is not a good sign in a press release (then again so is no caps or punctuation ;))

[Justin39640]

Previous NYC Ballot initiative threads:

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=120891

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=114480

(We really need some merges happening.)


Here's a link to the ballot website:

http://www.nyccan.org/index.php

9/11 Blogger link to the story Parky posted above. 4 pages of comments. :oldroll:
http://www.911blogger.com/node/20743

those comments on the 911blogger site kill me lol

here was an interesting note in one in respect to asking lawersfor911truth for help
See this from the very bottom of lawyersfor911truth dot com home page.
"Currently, Lawyers for 9/11 Truth is not engaging in any formal legal efforts as a group. Therefore, requests for legal assistance will probably go unanswered at this time."
Mech Engr P.E.
lol

[Grizzly Bear]

You took your mask off to say that? You could have infused it with more drama, you know.

Perhaps a David Caruso-ism would have been in order, followed by the "Daltrey Scream."

The NWO has strict orders for modesty!!!
http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/4166/monstae.png

[Trojan]

County clercks accept just about anything --- there would have to be a glaring technical error for a clerk to toss it.

Like not paying the filing fee, or not preparing the document in the appropriate manner.

[Brainster]

Still haven't seen a good explanation for what happened. Although they bruited the 70,000 signatures around a lot, what they really submitted was 53,000. The additional 17,000 or so plus whatever they can get in the next few weeks will supposedly be submitted and (they claim) this will overrule anything the City Council or the Clerk can do.

I still say that even if they get it on the ballot and even if it passes (neither of which is likely), they'll butt up against reality when they have to raise $50 million in private donations to fund the effort.

[Gravy]

Check out this friggin' hilarious spin posted on 9/11 blogger by Jules, one of the two nutjob members of one of those NYC truther groups (bolding mine):

Actually, this is one of the few outcomes I had hoped for.

Having the city reject the initiative might actually be the best possible outcome considering my opinion of all the internal problems the effort faces.

As John is pointing out, this could be a real opportunity for some good press. So what I recommend is that we fashion a very mature response to this rejection that plays up our democratic rights, our basic desire for answers without any mention of 9/11 facts, and makes clear exactly who supports the initiative, the public, and our more notable participants.

We should contact news outlets and feed this story to as many as possible on the assumption that if only a few pick it up that others will follow.

We should also have activists in NYC plan a march on City Hall to protest this action handing out flyers to the public that let everyone know what we are about.Just keep asking questions (that have been answered a million times), demanding answers, and omitting "9/11 facts" from your flyers, as you've been doing all along, chief! Fail = Win!

:boggled:

[ElMondoHummus]

Check out this friggin' hilarious spin posted on 9/11 blogger by Jules, one of the two nutjob members of one of those NYC truther groups (bolding mine):

Just keep asking questions (that have been answered a million times), demanding answers, and omitting "9/11 facts" from your flyers, as you've been doing all along, chief! Fail = Win!

:boggled:

Jesus... I'd call that a Freudian Slip if it weren't for the fact that I really view it as accidental honesty. :D

[~enigma~]

I thought they were foolishly counting the signatures from the last time they tried this, without realizing there's a time limit. Is that what happened, or is it even more pathetic?
They realized there was a 120 day limit. They wrote in their faq that it didn't apply. Guess they thought they were special.

[R.Mackey]

Check out this friggin' hilarious spin posted on 9/11 blogger by Jules, one of the two nutjob members of one of those NYC truther groups (bolding mine):

Just keep asking questions (that have been answered a million times), demanding answers, and omitting "9/11 facts" from your flyers, as you've been doing all along, chief! Fail = Win!

I know you already understand this, but that's not spin at all, that's how they operate.

The minute they actually take the initiative, they're on the hook to produce, and to explain their own lack of progress. The entire point of the Truth Movement is lost without an "official story" to rail against.

I think I'm with Pat, it would have been amusing to give them the shot and let them show us what they can do (or can't do, as the case may be). It could be their most epic failure ever, eclipsing even the ham sandwich incident (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=3114215#post3114215).

Anyway, I'm bored. Going back to my Wine thread (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=148863) now. Wake me in the off chance any of them manage to put a coherent thought together.

[Scott Sommers]

I'm a little confused about how many signatures they were able to gather and how many were actually valid.

The July 25th article states a goal of 30,000 signature by end of July. http://www.911blogger.com/node/16802
Yet the NYCCAN response states they have 70,000 signatures. http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/WO0907/S00455.htm
There's no way these figures are reconcilable.

Also, I have seen a larger petition that has 30,000 names on it including Americans and international citizens.

There is also a bizarre petition called Firefighters for 9-11 Truth Petition http://www.petitiononline.com/fftruth/petition.html
which states it has 344 signatures, but if you look at it, almost none are really firefighters and none of those who claim to be firefighters claim to be from NY. Some very large number of these 344 are lines that have been voided.

[Dave Rogers]

Wake me in the off chance any of them manage to put a coherent thought together.

And with that, he fell into an enchanted sleep that lasted a hundred years.

Dave

[Scott Sommers]

Apparently the gunman from the US Holocaust Memorial Museum had signed the 911 Petition for Solidarity.

http://www.justicefor911.org/

June 10, 2009 Statement from Organizers:
It has come to our attention that today, an individual, entirely unknown to us, who had previously signed this open petition in support of our Justicefor911.org complaint, opened fire inside the crowded US Holocaust Memorial Museum in Washington DC, brutally slaughtering museum guard Stephen T. Johns. Our heartfelt condolences go out to Mr. Johns' family and friends, and all those affected by this tragic crime.

We have never knowingly associated with, or promoted, individuals or ideas promoting violence. We have never known the individual who perpetrated this crime today, in any capacity whatsoever, and certainly do not hail him a "hero" as TV host Glenn Beck falsely and libelously stated today, but rather deplore his hatred and this violent act. In keeping with this history and our continuing pursuit of non-violence, we have removed the signature of this man from this petition signatories list.

[Oliver]

About that petition to put a new investigation of 9/11 on the ballot in New York? I have not found a direct link to the news story yet, but there were not enough valid signatures on it. It is dead.

Massive FAIL.


Reading the title of your thread I assumed it was about the annual Truther-demonstration in NY - which will be a massive fail as well.

So how many valid signatures did the petition get?

[jhunter1163]

So how many valid signatures did the petition get?

They had at most 70,000, but 30,000+ were from the last petition drive, so it couldn't have been more than 40,000 and was probably considerably less.

The good news for the Truthers is they now have someone to focus their anger on, namely the NYC City Clerk who denied their petition. Not much fun to rage against the machine if you don't know who you're raging against.

[Oliver]

They had at most 70,000, but 30,000+ were from the last petition drive, so it couldn't have been more than 40,000 and was probably considerably less.

The good news for the Truthers is they now have someone to focus their anger on, namely the NYC City Clerk who denied their petition. Not much fun to rage against the machine if you don't know who you're raging against.


Well, thank you, JHunter - but how many of those 40,000 or more signatures are valid ones given the OP's statement that "there were not enough valid signatures on it"?

Also, it seems that "NYC City Clerk" is a pretty good JREF member name, fence sitters. :D

[Quad4_72]

Haha. The Twoof Movement never fails to fail.

[BigAl]

I would be surprised if the older signatures were the problem, but there's certainly that possibility (see '9/11 investigation' thread for additional details).

I actually suspect they made some minor change(s) to the petition between campaigns. Either way - we'll find out soon enough.

And both very basic mistakes indicate that they didn't really have "the best election lawyer in NYC".

There is no "minor" change to a petition.

Where did the money they collected go?

[timhau]

County clercks accept just about anything --- there would have to be a glaring technical error for a clerk to toss it.

Like not paying the filing fee, or not preparing the document in the appropriate manner.

... or the NWO got to the county clerk. Our malevolence knows no limits, and neither does our power.

[BigAl]

Haha. The Twoof Movement never fails to fail.

There isn't a single reference to the NYCCAN petition in the news. They need to get the "Public Relations Professionals for Truth" people involved. (Which brings that other group, "Telephone Sanitisers and Hairdressers for Truth" to mind.)

In the meantime, Orly Taitz, the loudmouth of the Birther movement was on NPR Radio and The Colbert Report in the last 24 hours, both heard by millions, nation-wide.

Turn the lights out on the "Truth Movement". It doesn't exist in the real world anymore.

I did a scan of the Usenet conspiracy groups yesterday. The amount of TM crap is nearly zero. It's been replaced by Birther crap, apparently posted by a different bunch of loons.

[Horatius]

Holy moly! They come across as batpoo crazy in their press releases as their adherents do in Internet posts.

ALL CAPS IN A PRESS RELEASE FTW!!!!!!!



..and they end it off with an appeal for money. Gotta stick to their roots!

[johnny karate]

Does this mean they'll be changing their name to NYCCAN'T?

[Scott Sommers]

How many votes did they need? It appears from this article
http://twurl.nl/htomgz
they needed something like 70,000

The 9/11 Commission ballot referendum initiative in New York City has filed over 52,000 petition signatures with the City Clerk. 20,000 more signatures will override a potential City Council veto.

[newton3376]

Does this mean they'll be changing their name to NYCCAN'T?

BWAH!!!!

:dl:

I almost spit hot tea all over the screen with that one.....

[newton3376]

There isn't a single reference to the NYCCAN petition in the news. They need to get the "Public Relations Professionals for Truth" people involved. (Which brings that other group, "Telephone Sanitisers and Hairdressers for Truth" to mind.)

In the meantime, Orly Taitz, the loudmouth of the Birther movement was on NPR Radio and The Colbert Report in the last 24 hours, both heard by millions, nation-wide.

Turn the lights out on the "Truth Movement". It doesn't exist in the real world anymore.

I did a scan of the Usenet conspiracy groups yesterday. The amount of TM crap is nearly zero. It's been replaced by Birther crap, apparently posted by a different bunch of loons.

It's good to have some variety when it comes to loons....:)

[BigAl]

How many votes did they need? It appears from this article
http://twurl.nl/htomgz
they needed something like 70,000

The 9/11 Commission ballot referendum initiative in New York City has filed over 52,000 petition signatures with the City Clerk. 20,000 more signatures will override a potential City Council veto.

As someone who works on election campaigns in NYC and is frequently involved with petition drives, nothing I've heard from the Twoofer side sounds authoritative. I don't trust quotes from city law provided by people that haven't demonstrated expertise in the relevant law.

I want to hear from "The best election lawyer in NYC" who, it is claimed works for this petition drive.

[lapman]

There isn't a single reference to the NYCCAN petition in the news. They need to get the "Public Relations Professionals for Truth" people involved. (Which brings that other group, "Telephone Sanitisers and Hairdressers for Truth" to mind.)IMHO, the NWO should form the fictitious "Proctologists For Truth." Somebody needs to help them pull their heads out. :D

[BigAl]

IMHO, the NWO should form the fictitious "Proctologists For Truth." Somebody needs to help them pull their heads out. :D

But in keeping with the traditions of the "Truth Movement", these doctors would opine about everything but medicine.

[Horatius]

I want to hear from "The best election lawyer in NYC" who, it is claimed works for this petition drive.



Actually, I think that's yet another example of Twoofer Weaselling in action. what they really said was:


THE BIG NEWS: the most experienced election lawyer in New York City stands ready to represent the 9/11 families, first responders and survivors in court in an HISTORIC FIGHT FOR DEMOCRACY AND TRUTH. BUT WE DESPERATELY NEED YOUR FINANCIAL SUPPORT TO MAKE IT HAPPEN.


So, it looks to me like this lawyer "stands ready to represent the 9/11 families", just as soon as the twoofers have enough money to pay his bill.

Hey, even Charles Manson had a lawyer, right?

[Horatius]

IMHO, the NWO should form the fictitious "Proctologists For Truth." Somebody needs to help them pull their heads out. :D



Well, almost....

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=2877750#post2877750

http://static.stripgenerator.com/generated/horatius/strip/2007/08/17/exploiting-a-market.png


http://static.stripgenerator.com/generated/horatius/strip/2007/08/17/full-service.png

[Scott Sommers]

I know this sounds stupid, but really being here on a fact-finding mission, why is it that major celebrities like Charlie Sheen and Rosie O'Donnell, aren't backing these things? It's not like they have any integrity left on the issue.

[lapman]

Horatius :bigclap

[Quad4_72]

I know this sounds stupid, but really being here on a fact-finding mission, why is it that major celebrities like Charlie Sheen and Rosie O'Donnell, aren't backing these things? It's not like they have any integrity left on the issue.
Their agents strongly advise them not to. The agents can only do so much though. They can't control all of the retarded things that slip out of the celebrities mouths.

[dudalb]

I Think a lot of the Truther Leaders are getting pissed that the Brither Kooks are really stealing their thunder.

[dropzone]

There is also a bizarre petition called Firefighters for 9-11 Truth Petition http://www.petitiononline.com/fftruth/petition.html
which states it has 344 signatures, but if you look at it, almost none are really firefighters and none of those who claim to be firefighters claim to be from NY. Some very large number of these 344 are lines that have been voided.And of the ones that were not voided there are names like Chief Grand Cherokee, Marcus Absent, and W. Pleasure. Probably told them he'd sign "with pleasure" and was a man of his word. Makes you wonder about the hundreds of signatures rejected. :rolleyes:

[Arisia]

I Think a lot of the Truther Leaders are getting pissed that the Brither Kooks are really stealing their thunder.

I do believe the Birthers are ahead of the Truthers in the 'Conspiracy Idol' voting at this point, yes. :)

[Blender Head]

I know this sounds stupid, but really being here on a fact-finding mission, why is it that major celebrities like Charlie Sheen and Rosie O'Donnell, aren't backing these things? It's not like they have any integrity left on the issue.

Sheen's too busy hocking undies:

SNjf8tz8ltg

[timhau]

I want to hear from "The best election lawyer in NYC" who, it is claimed works for this petition drive.

If the Twoofers' knowledge of election law is anything like their knowledge of, say, physics or peer review, you may already have heard from him/her. You just didn't realize who the blabbering idiot was.

[bje]

Horatius :bigclap

Ditto! :dl:

[Gravy]

Marry me, Horatius!

[Gravy]

I know this sounds stupid, but really being here on a fact-finding mission, why is it that major celebrities like Charlie Sheen and Rosie O'Donnell, aren't backing these things?I know! Do they want the Republicans out of the presidency and vice presidency, or not????

;)

[Justin39640]

And of the ones that were not voided there are names like Chief Grand Cherokee, Marcus Absent, and W. Pleasure. Probably told them he'd sign "with pleasure" and was a man of his word. Makes you wonder about the hundreds of signatures rejected. :rolleyes:

ah they have Lt Kennith Shea
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenny_Shea
lol

[Bobert]

About that petition to put a new investigation of 9/11 on the ballot in New York? I have not found a direct link to the news story yet, but there were not enough valid signatures on it. It is dead.

Massive FAIL.
This is exactly what I thought would happen.
They bragged about the number of signatures they got YET those signatures HAVE TO BE VALIDATED!

[ref]

Oh, I really haven't had any interest towards this NYCCAN thing, so I just now took a quick look.

They are supposed to form an "independent commission" to investigate the attack. They have already chosen 8 members to the commission, and these already selected members will select 7 more members in the future.

Who are these 8 already selected "independent" members?

You can see from here (http://nyccan.org/PetitionForm1Signature.pdf), that they are:

Dr. William Pepper
Lorie Van Auken
Dr. Edgar Mitchell
Lincoln Chafee
Mike Gravel
Ed Asner
Ralph Schoenman
Thomas Gumbleton

A couple of interesting facts about these people:

Dr. William Pepper believes in put options fraud, the "Atta was wired $100.000" story, and quick WTC steel destruction among others. He has also been a speaker at 9/11 Truth movement evenings, encouraging the truth movement.

Ed Asner believes everything Pepper does, plus thinks Pearl Harbor was an inside job, some of the hijackers are alive, controlled demolition of the WTC, and that 9/11 was a reason USA needed to go to war. He recommends David Ray Griffin's book "New Pearl Harbor", and is a member of AE911Truth.

Dr. Edgar Mitchell believes in paranormal phenomenan. He says a remote healer cured his kidney cancer. Believes UFO's visit the earth regularly, believes there are regular encounters with extraterrestrials, and that UFO's have provided "sonic engineering secrets" that have been helpful to the U.S. government.


Ralph Schoenman has lectured about 9/11 being a false flag operation. He thinks it was a co-operation between the CIA and MOSSAD. Believes in controlled demolition. He also thinks the German and Russian intelligences had exact knowledge of the attacks a week beforehand, including the names of all the hijackers.

That's all the time I wanted to waste on this. There would be more on other members as well.

This is what they call an independent commission? :eye-poppi These are the people who they want to represent their efforts?

Funnily enough, their website (http://nyccan.org/faq.php) includes the following sentence:

Unlike the first 9/11 Commission, the new Commission will be completely independent because it will be comprised of individuals with no interest in protecting the government from accountability.

Well, that's true, in a way. These individuals sure have no interest in protecting the government, in fact, they will do whatever they can to hold the government responsible for something, anything, anything at all.

[leftysergeant]

Lorie Van Auken is one of the Jersey Girls. Lost family in the attack. Standing on the loading platform with nine years of biases.

Thomas Gumleton is a gay Catholic Bishop.

Just who you would select for an impartial commission.

[A W Smith]

Is there a link to the names of the petition signers? I'm bored and would like to count the cartoon characters, super heroes, and deceased sports figures.

[BigAl]

Is there a link to the names of the petition signers? I'm bored and would like to count the cartoon characters, super heroes, and deceased sports figures.


It's going to be thousands of pages. The petitions on the web site are one and 3-names per page. I assume that for the on-the-street petition drive it was 10 names per page. That's still 5,000 pages.

For our City Council election campaign petitions this year we scanned ours and paid to gets scans of ours opponent's petitions. About 4,000 names (400 pages) each.

[Brainster]

Van Auken has endorsed some nutty stuff herself (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=75008):

“There are just so many unanswered questions,” says Van Auken. “I would say you need roughly 400 hours of research to graduate from 9/11 kindergarten class. That’s why it’s so hard to keep people on the same page, because they’re coming at this issue from a million different angles. A friend might tell them about building 7, or they might watch Loose Change on the internet, or they’ll say, ‘Hold it a second, you can’t make cell phone calls from an airplane.’ And then suddenly a little alarm bell goes off in their brain, and they say, ‘Wow, we don’t know the whole story about this.’ That’s all it takes, the little alarm bell, and then, bam, welcome to the place we’ve been living in for the last six years.”

Schoenman is a notorious self-promoter who at one time worked as a personal secretary for Bertrand Russell in the antiwar movement of the 1960s, before Russell fired him and wrote a scathing open letter to the New York Times.

[jaydeehess]

IMHO, the NWO should form the fictitious "Proctologists For Truth." Somebody needs to help them pull their heads out. :D

Ohh,,, now that there is funny. I don't care who ya are.

[jaydeehess]

I checked out the site and there is nothing there about explosives or no-planes or space-a-beams.

Is that just to dupe the public into signing or is this just a desire by them to spend a whack more money on a new investigation that will pretty much come to the same conclusions that the first one did?

[jhunter1163]

Schoenman is a notorious self-promoter who at one time worked as a personal secretary for Bertrand Russell in the antiwar movement of the 1960s, before Russell fired him and wrote a scathing open letter to the New York Times.

You mean this one?

http://karws.gso.uri.edu/JFK/The_critics/Russell/Private_memorandum_of_Russell.html

[dudalb]

Ed Asner believes everything Pepper does, plus thinks Pearl Harbor was an inside job, some of the hijackers are alive, controlled demolition of the WTC, and that 9/11 was a reason USA needed to go to war. He recommends David Ray Griffin's book "New Pearl Harbor", and is a member of AE911Truth.

Asner makes me sad. It is one thing for "Talents" like Rosie O'Donnell and Charlie Sheen to buy into this crap and shill for it, but is just realy tragic that somewhat as talented as Asner falls for this crap.
And he was so damn good in "UP"..

[triforcharity]

But, you see, the only problem, based on ref's research (Great job BTW) is that they WOULDN'T come to the same conclusion, because things like facts, evidence, and similes are beyond their level of understanding. The biggest problem they will have is this.


Wait for it.......Wait for it........



Nyers in general don't really give a **** what someone else wants or thinks. Its not meant to be a negative thing, I love (most) NYers.

Plus, if it took them almost 18 months th get 70,000 signatures, (.375% of NYC population) I mean, really, it pretty much shows that NYC doesn't want this BS associated with them.

[Horatius]

Marry me, Horatius!



You'll have to get in line behind Tobias.


What you do behind him is your own business.....

;)

[Thunder]

Plus, if it took them almost 18 months th get 70,000 signatures, (.375% of NYC population) I mean, really, it pretty much shows that NYC doesn't want this BS associated with them.

Only about 5,000 of the signatures are valid. See new topic.

Truthers fail again...this time in a BIG way!!

Truthers vs. New York City?

Truthers 0....New York City 35.

[dropzone]

ah they have Lt Kennith Shea
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenny_Shea
lolFurther proof I should have Cable.

[JoeyDonuts]

Asner makes me sad. It is one thing for "Talents" like Rosie O'Donnell and Charlie Sheen to buy into this crap and shill for it, but is just realy tragic that somewhat as talented as Asner falls for this crap.
And he was so damn good in "UP"..

Easily explained.

He's losing his ****.

[portlandatheist]

Some how, in some mysterious way, truthers will attempt to use this as another data point that they represent the majority of the public and that their movement is growing.

[jhunter1163]

Some how, in some mysterious way, truthers will attempt to use this as another data point that they represent the majority of the public and that their movement is growing.

They're going to have a hard time doing that. The letter explaining the reasons for this fail are is linked in the new thread, and it lays a thorough and convincing smackdown on the Truthers. You'll notice that not one Truther has commented on it, and I doubt that one will.

[jaydeehess]

ah they have Lt Kennith Shea
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenny_Shea
lol

What about;(again from "Rescue me")
Franco Rivera - (Daniel Sunjata) - A womanizing firefighter and single father, Franco is Tommy's former protege with the main group of firefighters. Has a daughter named Keela, who he ultimately lost custody to a wealthy former girlfriend when she found out that he had custody of her despite signing away his parental rights. He is also, as of late, one who believes that 9/11 was an inside job, which initially drew the ire of his fellow firefighters, both inside and outside the house.