War Crimes In Iraq!

[Luke T.]

I am sorry to disappoint our friends from the Left, but this is not about U.S. war crimes. This is about the small, insignificant matter of the slaughter of Iraqis by the thousands by bullets, bombs and chemicals over a period of decades.


Iraqi war crimes tribunal created (http://www.msnbc.com/news/1003586.asp)


Iraq’s Governing Council formally established a war crimes tribunal Wednesday to try top members of Saddam Hussein’s government, and said the court could try Saddam in absentia. Abdel-Aziz al-Hakim, current president of the interim government, said the tribunal will cover genocide, war crimes and crimes against humanity committed from July 14, 1968 — when Saddam’s Baath Party came to power — until May 1, 2003 — when President Bush declared major hostilities over.

“TODAY IS an important historic event in the history of Iraq,” al-Hakim said.
Al-Hakim said the council had made no decision on the death penalty, which was suspended by the U.S. occupation authority.

What? The U.S. suspended the death penalty? Well, what's good enough for the Iraqis...

[Hexxenhammer]

What? The U.S. suspended the death penalty? Well, what's good enough for the Iraqis... Maybe we're shipping them to Texas.

[Tmy]

BAH! First rule of war crimes. IT ONLY APPLIES TO LOSERS!!!

[The Fool]

Originally posted by Luke T.
I am sorry to disappoint our friends from the Left, but this is not about U.S. war crimes.

So they are allowed to investigate the deaths of all innocent civilians except if they were killed by americans/british/Australians? Thats very convenient. If they had announced they were investigating the deaths of Innocent Iraqis from all causes I wonder if they would have been allowed to continue, I wonder if we would have ever heard of them at all?

Will they also investigate who was funding supplying and supporting the baath party while it commited these crimes? Let me guess......probably not allowed to do that either eh?

[geni]

War crimes? Crimes against humanity maybe but war crimes? As far as I can tell Iraq pretty obeyed the geneva convetion last time around. If they are sticking to war crimes there are not going to be many people in the dock (it is a bit tricky to mistreat prisoners whn you haven't got very many).

[Luke T.]

Originally posted by geni
War crimes? Crimes against humanity maybe but war crimes? As far as I can tell Iraq pretty obeyed the geneva convetion last time around. If they are sticking to war crimes there are not going to be many people in the dock (it is a bit tricky to mistreat prisoners whn you haven't got very many).

Saddam Hussein has waged war on the Iraqi people, particularly the Kurds, for decades.

[Luke T.]

Originally posted by The Fool

Will they also investigate who was funding supplying and supporting the baath party while it commited these crimes? Let me guess......probably not allowed to do that either eh?

Are you talking about Germany, France, Russia and China? :)

[demon]

So the US, via its Iraqi Governing Council, is now seeking to charge Iraqis with war crimes?

How can the mainstream media report this with a straight face?
Does any part of the media have the courage or the audacity to give a slightly different view or have they capitulated totally?

- the US refuses to sigh up to the International Criminal Court,

- its sanctions regime has rightly been described as "genocide" by many informed and uncompromised commentators - including former assistant UN secretary-general Denis Halliday

- thousands of innocent civilians have been killed so far in Bush's war on Iraq - a war which, it was widely agreed, flouted international law and was and still is opposed by most UN member countries and by the vast majority of the citizens of this planet.

It's like that bloke said when Henry Kissinger was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize - satire is dead.

[Mr Manifesto]

Originally posted by Luke T.


Saddam Hussein has waged war on the Iraqi people, particularly the Kurds, for decades.

Metaphors aside, isn't that a 'crime against humanity'?

Oh... Wait... This is too rich! (http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/s1007588.htm)

The alleged crimes against humanity would include the gassing of Iranian soldiers and Iraqi Kurds and genocidal purges carried out against Shiites, Kurds and Kuwaitis during and after the 1991 Gulf War.

Who supplied those chemical weapons? Iraqi Kurds, yeah, but Iranian soldiers? What were they supposed to use the chemical weapons on, deer?

Who ignored what was going on, while it was going on? Oh, well, better late than never. And, no... You won't be getting your money back on those chemical weapons.

[Luke T.]

Originally posted by Mr Manifesto


Metaphors aside, isn't that a 'crime against humanity'?


The first paragraph of the story says they will cover genocide, war crimes and crimes against humanity. "War Crimes Tribunal" is shorter and catchier for headlines.

[Earthborn]

Originally posted by demon
- the US refuses to sigh up to the International Criminal Court,
No, the US has signed up for the ICC. However, it later basically said: "Well, just because the previous government signed up for something doesn't mean we have to abide by it! (http://www.usaforicc.org/facts_unsigning.html)"

I hope this Iraqi tribunal is set up with the best of intentions, but I doubt anyone in the world will see it as an independent and unbiased court.Are you talking about Germany, France, Russia and China? :)Among others. :)

[American]

http://i.cnn.net/cnn/2003/WORLD/meast/10/30/sprj.irq.torture.tape/story.torture.drop.jpg
Members of the Fedayeen Saddam throw a bound man from a rooftop. This man, and others shown on the videotape, survived the fall.
-CNN


Save your breath Luke. They will never accept that this torcher and a million similar acts including rapes and mass murder were perfect justification for the war. It was long overdue, in fact, but Bubba Clinton did nothing to stop this.

We really need to send liberals on a long vacation to Iraq, so they can tell the people of Baghdad in person that we shouldn't have overthrown Saddam and his sons. I'm sure they'll love hearing that from little snot-nose university pricks who spend $60K of daddy's cash learning how to avoid reality for 4-to-8 meaningless years of their lives, so the next 40 years they can spend in the fantasy world they make for themselves.

[specious_reasons]

Originally posted by Luke T.
I am sorry to disappoint our friends from the Left, but this is not about U.S. war crimes.

Not sorry at all. Iraq is in need of a truth and reconcilliation commission.

As far as war crimes goes, I think that even in Gulf War 1, the Iraqi government violated the Geneva convention. IIRC, they had captured pilots read confessions on national TV, probably at gunpoint.

[demon]

"No, the US has signed up for the ICC. However, it later basically said: "Well, just because the previous government signed up for something doesn't mean we have to abide by it!""

Thanks for the correction Earthborn...appreciated.

[Mr Manifesto]

Originally posted by American

Save your breath Luke. They will never accept that this torcher and a million similar acts including rapes and mass murder were perfect justification for the war. It was long overdue, in fact, but Bubba Clinton did nothing to stop this.

We really need to send liberals on a long vacation to Iraq, so they can tell the people of Baghdad in person that we shouldn't have overthrown Saddam and his sons. I'm sure they'll love hearing that from little snot-nose university pricks who spend $60K of daddy's cash learning how to avoid reality for 4-to-8 meaningless years of their lives, so the next 40 years they can spend in the fantasy world they make for themselves.

I will, as long as you go over there with me an mention to them that it was your government who put him in power in the first place.

[aerocontrols]

Originally posted by Mr Manifesto


I will, as long as you go over there with me an mention to them that it was your government who put him in power in the first place.

Simply not true.

[Mr Manifesto]

Originally posted by aerocontrols


Simply not true.

Bullsh!t (http://wais.stanford.edu/Iraq/iraq_pastandfuture42103.html)

[aerocontrols]

Originally posted by Mr Manifesto


Bullsh!t (http://wais.stanford.edu/Iraq/iraq_pastandfuture42103.html)

Surely not the best you can do? A webpage by a guy (Ron Hilton?) that attributes a belief by Rosa de Pena that your ridiculous accusation is correct, then states that it's a 'matter of debate' but that Rosa de Pena may be correct.

Perhaps you can link to a credible source that might provide some actual evidence.

[Mr Manifesto]

Originally posted by aerocontrols


Surely not the best you can do? A webpage by a guy (Ron Hilton?) that attributes a belief by Rosa de Pena that your ridiculous accusation is correct, then states that it's a 'matter of debate' but that Rosa de Pena may be correct.

Perhaps you can link to a credible source that might provide some actual evidence.

Here's one from a foreign affairs columinst who doesn't know what he's talking about (http://www.mideastfacts.com/IraqLott.html)

Ex-US official says CIA aided Baathists (http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0420-05.htm)

Declassified British Cabinet papers disclose coup backed by CIA (http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0420-05.htm)
1963
The events of 1963 were very similar to the events of the early 1990s. Iraq was demonized (back then, for moderate left-wing sympathies). An invasion was planned. After various dirty tricks, the then president was removed by his people.

"Papers of the British cabinet of 1963, later declassified, disclose that the coup had been backed by the British and the CIA.
"Added note: For the coup of 1963 the British MI6 and the CIA hired a young Iraqi man in Cairo to do their dirty work and help them destroy the Iraqi Communist Party. That man's name: Saddam Hussein."

See also Los Angeles Times article, 14 April 1991, and The Guardian 1 January 1994.

This is also mentioned in William Blum's Rogue State. It doesn't seem to be available online, but I imagine if you ask at your local library they'd be able to tell you how to find it.

[Mr Manifesto]

From PBS (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/saddam/interviews/aburish.html) (interview with Said Aburish)

There was a coup in Iraq in 1963. What do we know about the U.S. involvement in that coup?

The U.S. involvement in the coup against Kassem in Iraq in 1963 was substantial. There is evidence that CIA agents were in touch with army officers who were involved in the coup. There is evidence that an electronic command center was set up in Kuwait to guide the forces who were fighting Kassem. There is evidence that they supplied the conspirators with lists of people who had to be eliminated immediately in order to ensure success. The relationship between the Americans and the Ba'ath Party at that moment in time was very close indeed. And that continued for some time after the coup. And there was an exchange of information between the two sides. For example it was one of the first times that the United States was able to get certain models of Mig fighters and certain tanks made in the Soviet Union. That was the bribe. That was what the Ba'ath had to offer the United States in return for their help in eliminating Kassem.

[DrChinese]

Originally posted by Luke T.


Saddam Hussein has waged war on the Iraqi people, particularly the Kurds, for decades.

"Waged war" ergo war crimes? This is a twisting of the language, the very thing that led the U.S. to go after non-existent WMDs to begin with. It is all circular reasoning.

And I love the deal about trying Saddam in absentia. Like he cares.

[Luke T.]

Originally posted by DrChinese


"Waged war" ergo war crimes? This is a twisting of the language, the very thing that led the U.S. to go after non-existent WMDs to begin with. It is all circular reasoning.

And I love the deal about trying Saddam in absentia. Like he cares.

I hope you'll pardon me if I repeat myself.

The first paragraph of the story says they will cover genocide, war crimes and crimes against humanity. "War Crimes Tribunal" is shorter and catchier for headlines.

[rikzilla]

Originally posted by Mr Manifesto


Here's one from a foreign affairs columinst who doesn't know what he's talking about (http://www.mideastfacts.com/IraqLott.html)

Ex-US official says CIA aided Baathists (http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0420-05.htm)

Declassified British Cabinet papers disclose coup backed by CIA (http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0420-05.htm)


See also Los Angeles Times article, 14 April 1991, and The Guardian 1 January 1994.

This is also mentioned in William Blum's Rogue State. It doesn't seem to be available online, but I imagine if you ask at your local library they'd be able to tell you how to find it.

That's proof???


2 links to the ultra leftist "commondreams"...and one link to a site called "mideastfacts"...upon whose home page it declares itself to basically be part of the jihad. Great stuff there Mr. M.

Not evidence of CIA hijinks though....it does however rise to the level of rumour! I guess that's good enough for you?
-z

[Mr Manifesto]

Originally posted by rikzilla


That's proof???


2 links to the ultra leftist "commondreams"...and one link to a site called "mideastfacts"...upon whose home page it declares itself to basically be part of the jihad. Great stuff there Mr. M.

Not evidence of CIA hijinks though....it does however rise to the level of rumour! I guess that's good enough for you?
-z

Didn't read the links, huh? Never mind.



Hint: One from commondreams was from a newsagency, it was only reprinted on the commondreams site. I guess you're not bright enough to work out how newsagencies work, huh?

Not to mention the declassified documents, the news articles. Hope the sand's warm enough for your head.