Smoke Before Fire?

[BigBird]

Another loony claim by a loonytoon over at another forum... Not quite sure how to respond to it though... This is the gist of his post...

Claims this is pwooof that the plane crash was a fakery....

http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o296/nine_one_one/mig.jpg

http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o296/nine_one_one/migwtc.jpg

note the gray brown smoke first flre later.

NOT what a plane crash looks like

Plane crash has fire first really *********** black smoke follows!

I should probably just walk away, but I would love to have some video or something to give him to shut him up on his latest rant..

[Justin39640]

i dont think the 1st plane plowed through sheetrock walls and concrete floors

[Wolrab]

Damn it!! Who was in charge of fire and smoke?

[Justin39640]

Damn it!! Who was in charge of fire and smoke?

these guys
http://www.myclassiclyrics.com/artist_biographies/Cheech-and-Chong-3.jpg
ahhhh

[Wolrab]

:) Get Sergent Stedenko on this NOW!

[Chase_the_Bass]

these guys
http://www.myclassiclyrics.com/artist_biographies/Cheech-and-Chong-3.jpg
ahhhh

Ahahaha.

I too would say the grey is due all the building materials.

[Justin39640]

:) Get Sergent Stedenko on this NOW!

shoot the moon boys shoot the moon

lol

[leftysergeant]

The grey clouds are aerosolized jet fuel too dense to ignite. It was not exposed to a source of ignition and oxygen simultaneously. It was not until there was enough air and fuel in close contact with an ignition source that it took fire, but, from that instant, the fire propogated almost instantaneously throughout. Since we have no video of the other side of the tower at the time of impact, it would be purely speculative on my part to say that it may have been a hot engine part exiting into slightly less dense fuel mixture that set it off.

In the second crash, it appears to be one of the exiting engiunes that provides ignition to the fuel that was expressed through the down-range side of the tower.

[Grizzly Bear]

http://books.google.com/books?id=g0Fx58bGuTQC&pg=PT472&lpg=PT472&dq=Fundamentals+of+Fire+Fighter+Skills++black+fire&source=bl&ots=8FGBHBl1x6&sig=Nu3htnxZkAMiqQD4Y1uc32IfwHQ&hl=en&ei=dSRzStSII4GxmAf6nMHTCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1#v=onepage&q=&f=false

The google result puts you three pages past the beginning of the section talking about smoke... (scroll up when you click the link). IMO it's one of the best references I've found on this subject.

[FineWine]

There is a no-planer named Rasga Saias who is--cough, gasp--crazier and much dumber than Ace Baker. This psycho claimed that his imaginary conspiracy planted a hunk of metal in the street. When people pointed out that the photo he posted did not show an aircraft part, but more probably a piece of cladding, he dismissed it with a truly extraordinary argument. He claimed that the conspirators didn't care if it was an aircraft part or not. When asked to produce a remotely plausible reason why they wouldn't care, they started raving about "sheeple" and the blindness of the masses. If this is the character you're trying to debate, please heed my advice: RUN! Don't look back--just run.

[tsig]

There is a no-planer named Rasga Saias who is--cough, gasp--crazier and much dumber than Ace Baker. This psycho claimed that his imaginary conspiracy planted a hunk of metal in the street. When people pointed out that the photo he posted did not show an aircraft part, but more probably a piece of cladding, he dismissed it with a truly extraordinary argument. He claimed that the conspirators didn't care if it was an aircraft part or not. When asked to produce a remotely plausible reason why they wouldn't care, they started raving about "sheeple" and the blindness of the masses. If this is the character you're trying to debate, please heed my advice: RUN! Don't look back--just run.

You got to know when to fold 'em
Know when to hold 'em
Know when to walk away
Know when to run.

Kenny rodgers

[SmartyPants]

I know I'm preaching the incredibly obvious, but I need to vent for any truther who might reading this:

How hard would it be to just do your homework and look into the reasons why the two pictures of smoke might be different? Is it really as simple as comparing two pictures, seeing an inconsistency (a minor and easily explained one at that), then finish with "WTF?? FAKE!"? What would your response be if you saw another picture or video of a real plane crash with gray or white smoke?

Like these:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/telegraph/multimedia/archive/00793/Madrid-crash-460b_793592c.jpg

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/telegraph/multimedia/archive/01406/Plane-crash_1406606i.jpg

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/42190000/jpg/_42190262_building_416ap.jpg

Oh, and what do you make of this picture:

http://home.alamedanet.net/~vajra/sept11/WTCPhotoSequenceReuters.jpg

[triforcharity]

They would Yell " CONSPIRACY!!!111!!1". That is exactly what they would do.

[Reactor drone]

They must have faked this footage of an F-4/wall crash test too because there's a huge plume of grey smoke before the fireball there too :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96phB4fIk7E&feature=related

[triforcharity]

People seem to think that Jet fuel is explosive. It is not, it is flameable. There is a huge difference. In a pure liquid form, diesel, for example, is flameable, but in an aerosol form, is it VERY explosive. Jet fuel is the same. It is flameable in pure liquid form, but once it become particulated in the air, it is VERY explosive. This is why in most videos, there will be a lag in the time of impact, and the initial fireball. It might be a few seconds, or it might be just one, but there will almost always be a lag.

[defaultdotxbe]

anyone else remember when the truither argument was that the smoke WAS black, and THAT proved inside job?

[triforcharity]

I remember it. They saaid that black smoke equates to an oxygen-starved fire.

I have gone round and round with some of them here. Even Heiwa. They think that black smoke means that the fire was going out, and that it wasn't that bad.

But, we all know that is BS.

[Hamradioguy]

I remember it. They saaid that black smoke equates to an oxygen-starved fire.

I have gone round and round with some of them here. Even Heiwa. They think that black smoke means that the fire was going out, and that it wasn't that bad.

But, we all know that is BS.

I had the same experience with a truther here who insisted that despite my 40 plus years of firefighting, including training on jet fueled air crash mock ups, I didn't know what I was talking about, but he- with absolutely no firefighting experience- knew for a fact that black smoke meant the fire was oxygen starved and going out.

It's impossible to argue with stupid, and it's why I don't bother to post in this sub-forum very much.

[triforcharity]

I had the same experience with a truther here who insisted that despite my 40 plus years of firefighting, including training on jet fueled air crash mock ups, I didn't know what I was talking about, but he- with absolutely no firefighting experience- knew for a fact that black smoke meant the fire was oxygen starved and going out.

It's impossible to argue with stupid, and it's why I don't bother to post in this sub-forum very much.

Heiwa, the local COUGH "Engineer" Cough, has tried to debate me too on fire and things of that nature. Granted, 40 + years I cannot compete with. I have just under 15 years.

Get this. You'll get a kick out of this. Heiwa believes the air coming in the windows of the WTC were around 68 degrees. I tried to explain to him radiation, and heat transfer, but he didn't understand.

I promptly asked him to put his shoes 1 foot from a fire, and see what happens. He wouldn't do it.

[Klimax]

Heiwa, the local COUGH "Engineer" Cough, has tried to debate me too on fire and things of that nature. Granted, 40 + years I cannot compete with. I have just under 15 years.

Get this. You'll get a kick out of this. Heiwa believes the air coming in the windows of the WTC were around 68 degrees. I tried to explain to him radiation, and heat transfer, but he didn't understand.

I promptly asked him to put his shoes 1 foot from a fire, and see what happens. He wouldn't do it.

Quick question:Was that 68°C or °F?
Thanks.(I don't want to got through the dump his posts are,to find that small piece...)

[Justin39640]

Heiwa, the local COUGH "Engineer" Cough, has tried to debate me too on fire and things of that nature. Granted, 40 + years I cannot compete with. I have just under 15 years.

Get this. You'll get a kick out of this. Heiwa believes the air coming in the windows of the WTC were around 68 degrees. I tried to explain to him radiation, and heat transfer, but he didn't understand.

I promptly asked him to put his shoes 1 foot from a fire, and see what happens. He wouldn't do it.

the real sad part is
i learned about fire and smoke in boy scouts
from that alone i know those arguments are moronic

plus i had a some fire training as a JR when i was younger

no one with that small amount of training buys the "truths?" fire and smoke arguments

[triforcharity]

Klimax, that was deg. F. Not C. Sorry, forgot some here follow the metric system. I believe he said 20 deg C, and that roughly translates to 68 deg. F.

I don't blame you. The thread is titled "Temperature at WTC" or something like that. Its kind of amusing the beat down he recieved from me and a few others.

[BigBird]

Well thanks for the posts, that seems to clear it up for me... I took the liberty of showing this individual some of the things that were said and challenged him to come on over because he claims they are BS and this was his response... including the gifs... LOL

ah huh! your little coffee clutch who do not have the guts to come over and debate me on it because they know I will mop the floor with them!


Bring em on **** turdy I dont debate by proxy.
http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o296/nine_one_one/stuff/smiley3736.gif

Told him to come on over, but I highly doubt he will...

[George152]

I remember it. They saaid that black smoke equates to an oxygen-starved fire.

I have gone round and round with some of them here. Even Heiwa. They think that black smoke means that the fire was going out, and that it wasn't that bad.

But, we all know that is BS.

That was a truther gem.
Alongside the smoke from their 'oxygen' starved fire was the hole made by the aircraft impact..

[Grizzly Bear]

Told him to come on over, but I highly doubt he will...

His choice anyway... I have a feeling if he were really determined to make a point after seeing the responses here he'd have done it already of his own accord. If he doesn't want to I see no reason to pressure him... it's his credibility in the claims he makes, not yours...

[jaydeehess]

They must have faked this footage of an F-4/wall crash test too because there's a huge plume of grey smoke before the fireball there too :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96phB4fIk7E&feature=related

Well, that would be expected since the F-4 did not have any fuel on board. the tanks were filled with water and strap on rockets used for propulsion.

The only fireball in the F-4 impact is the destruction of the rocket motors.

[jaydeehess]

I had the same experience with a truther here who insisted that despite my 40 plus years of firefighting, including training on jet fueled air crash mock ups, I didn't know what I was talking about, but he- with absolutely no firefighting experience- knew for a fact that black smoke meant the fire was oxygen starved and going out.

It's impossible to argue with stupid, and it's why I don't bother to post in this sub-forum very much.

Well then its settled. The black smoke is suspicious and so is the grey smoke. Obviously it should have been magenta.

[triforcharity]

Majenta??? Come on, we all know there were no serious fires in WTC. Why would there be ANY smoke???

[TruthersLie]

Majenta??? Come on, we all know there were no serious fires in WTC. Why would there be ANY smoke???

It is the cigarette companies fault. They hooked the towers on it early by using Joe the camel.

[Klimax]

Klimax, that was deg. F. Not C. Sorry, forgot some here follow the metric system. I believe he said 20 deg C, and that roughly translates to 68 deg. F.

I don't blame you. The thread is titled "Temperature at WTC" or something like that. Its kind of amusing the beat down he recieved from me and a few others.

I initially hoped it was in C,but in F?

That should have been stundied...

[triforcharity]

Klimax,

That would be a shoe-in for the Stundie Award. We could have just announced the winner then, and just had fun the rest of the month!!

[Klimax]

Klimax,

That would be a shoe-in for the Stundie Award. We could have just announced the winner then, and just had fun the rest of the month!!

What do you think it causes to me?

[Dave_46]

This is at least the third fourth fifth time I have posted this.

I just wanted to pick up on the smoke colour.

I happened to be reading a guide to the United Kingdom Regulatory Reform (Fire Safety) Order yesterday (don't ask!) The one I was reading was for producing a Fire Risk Assessment for Small And Medium Places Of Assembly.

Link http://www.communities.gov.uk/documents/fire/pdf/151636.pdf

At the bottom of page 16 (document page) is this paragraph.
Smoke produced by a fire also contains
toxic gases which are harmful to
people. A fire in a building with modern
fittings and materials generates smoke
that is thick and black, obscures vision,
causes great difficulty in breathing and
can block the escape routes.



This fits with my experience, and it has been mentioned by other posters here, the smoke colour is mainly influenced by what is burning, and is not indicative of oxygen starvation.

Dave

Edited to change Entertainment to Assembly in the document name
Also edited to change the URL (the file got moved)