Immigration: Why come to Britain?

[volatile]

Following this (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8180120.stm) story about a man clinging to the underside of a coach full of Border Agency Officers in order to illegally immigrate into the UK, I started wondering: what's so great about Britain that it makes hanging on the underside of a coach worthwhile? Why not stay in France, or Spain, or Italy?

I understand the drive to better oneself, and have no real issue with migrancy, but what I don't get is why you'd risk life and limb, arrest and deportation to get to Britain which, as best I can tell, isn't on the face of it that much better for your average immigrant than France would be. Why don't these guys just stay in France? They've done the hard part in getting out of wherever it is they started in search of a better life.

What am I missing?

[pakeha]

It's a puzzle, isn't it.
There's a similar problem in Spain, but with young boys rather than adults as they fit in smaller spaces under the lorries.

[uk_dave]

Why don't these guys just stay in France?

Have you ever been to France? :eek:

Don't you know what they do with snails? :aaa!

[TragicMonkey]

From what I've read, immigrants in France, particularly the ones from North Africa, aren't treated as well as they are in Britain. Aren't there riots and things a lot?

[Arcade22]

Following story about a man clinging to the underside of a coach full of Border Agency Officers in order to illegally immigrate into the UK, I started wondering: what's so great about Britain that it makes hanging on the underside of a coach worthwhile? Why not stay in France, or Spain, or Italy?

I understand the drive to better oneself, and have no real issue with migrancy, but what I don't get is why you'd risk life and limb, arrest and deportation to get to Britain which, as best I can tell, isn't on the face of it that much better for your average immigrant than France would be. Why don't these guys just stay in France? They've done the hard part in getting out of wherever it is they started in search of a better life.

What am I missing?
Family? Friends? That's my bet.

[Fiona]

I have wondered about this too and it is puzzling. I sort of imagined the same as Arcade22 and also perhaps language?

[MG1962]

There is clearly not enough information in the article to make any real comment. Where he came from, his history to this point would need to be known before you could really make any educated guesses

[Wildy]

Why come to Britain?

So you can leave.

[zooterkin]

I have wondered about this too and it is puzzling. I sort of imagined the same as Arcade22 and also perhaps language?

Yes, for France and Spain and those other countries, they'd have to learn a foreign language, rather than English.












:duck:

[Darat]

I know for a fact that in at least parts of Nigeria the UK has a reputation of being a "soft touch" in regards to illegal immigrants being able to scam the social security system. Perhaps this is also prevalent in other countries?

[volatile]

There is clearly not enough information in the article to make any real comment. Where he came from, his history to this point would need to be known before you could really make any educated guesses

Sure. For this specific case. But this happens a lot. There is even a huge impromptu camp at Sangatte, by the port of Calais, where scores of people wait, trying to sneak into Britain. They're already in France, and the French authorities don't seem to mind much. So why risk this dangerous next stage? What's the benefit? I don't really get it!

[volatile]

I know for a fact that in at least parts of Nigeria the UK has a reputation of being a "soft touch" in regards to illegal immigrants being able to scam the social security system. Perhaps this is also prevalent in other countries?

Sounds unlikely though - I mean, how do they scam the welfare system without registering in the first place? As I understand it, most of them work off the record, under-the-table, cash-in-hand or whatever; you can't claim benefits if the government don't know you're here...

France has a far more generous welfare system than we do, too.

[Darat]

Sure. For this specific case. But this happens a lot. There is even a huge impromptu camp at Sangatte, by the port of Calais, where scores of people wait, trying to sneak into Britain. They're already in France, and the French authorities don't seem to mind much. So why risk this dangerous next stage? What's the benefit? I don't really get it!

Perhaps there is some truth in the perception that we are more compassionate in regards to how we treat illegal immigrants?

[Darat]

Sounds unlikely though - I mean, how do they scam the welfare system without registering in the first place? As I understand it, most of them work off the record, under-the-table, cash-in-hand or whatever; you can't claim benefits if the government don't know you're here...

France has a far more generous welfare system than we do, too.

Here is a recent example: http://www.yourlocalguardian.co.uk/news/4491456.Fraudulent_failed_asylum_seeker_jailed/

[volatile]

Perhaps there is some truth in the perception that we are more compassionate in regards to how we treat illegal immigrants?

You could well be right. Anyone know of any interviews asking this type of question?

I wonder if it's simply a hold-over from colonialism - we really did culture this mythology for a few centuries that Britain was Great.

[Fiona]

Yes, for France and Spain and those other countries, they'd have to learn a foreign language, rather than English.












:duck:

:D

Ok but a lot of people already speak english, particularly in former UK colonies. That is all I meant really

[Darat]

You could well be right. Anyone know of any interviews asking this type of question?

I wonder if it's simply a hold-over from colonialism - we really did culture this mythology for a few centuries that Britain was Great.

Mythology!? How dare you! We were and still are Great*.





*For a given definition of great....

[gtc]

Mythology!? How dare you! We were and still are Great*.

It says it right there in the name.

[zooterkin]

:D

Ok but a lot of people already speak english, particularly in former UK colonies. That is all I meant really

I don't think those are the places that people are coming from, in the case of the people at Sangatte, for example. I'll admit I was being somewhat facetious, and I was going to make the comment anyway, and hung it on yours as you'd already mentioned the language. I agree that it probably is a factor, however, since I suspect, without checking, that English is the most common second language; I think there is also something in the idea that the UK is thought to be a soft touch.

[Delscottio]

Sounds unlikely though - I mean, how do they scam the welfare system without registering in the first place? As I understand it, most of them work off the record, under-the-table, cash-in-hand or whatever; you can't claim benefits if the government don't know you're here...

France has a far more generous welfare system than we do, too.

I used to work for the DWP and on various training courses the theme was Identity Fraud was a Nigerian national past time. There was a booklet being sold within the community on how to create a false ID from the dead.

The whole area of fraud was quite interesting, you could make a reasonably accurate prediction on ethnicity of the criminal by the type fraud committed.

The impression I got from asylum seekers was that whilst we may not pay the most in benefits but the service from the asylum service in regards to health advice etc was worth the hassle. The rules changed in 2001 iirc so didn't have much to do with them after that.

[Fiona]

Seems you are right about countries of origin at least so far as Sangatte is concerned: but not about benefits so much. Law has changed since this was written, though

http://docs.google.com/gview?a=v&q=cache:8T2eBdgGFoMJ:www.refugeecouncil.org.uk/OneStopCMS/Core/CrawlerResourceServer.aspx%3Fresource%3D52A1758B-AAD4-4FD6-BB07-EE19EE98C337%26mode%3Dlink%26guid%3D6b58306cdcd84b 71aba51f839588cb3d+country+of+origin+refugees+sang atte&hl=en&gl=uk

Pull factors - myths
Home Office research published in July shows that asylum seekers have valid reasons for wanting to reach the UK, including family, community or historical ties and a positive impression of the country as respectful of human rights. They have little knowledge of UK immigration or asylum procedures before they arrive, nor of entitlements to benefits, the availability of work or how UK policies compare to those of other EU countries. In this light, measures aimed at deterrence are unlikely to be effective, yet the UK is using Sangatte and the myth of ‘pull factors’ to justify major policy changes.

[Darat]

Interesting sentence from that article:

...Only a small minority of Europe's asylum seekers wants to cross the Channel to the UK, but it is rendered highly visible by this country's particular geographical and political situation.....

If that is accurate what we have is the perception of an issue not matching the reality, which is never easy to deal with.

[volatile]

Great link, Fiona.

[volatile]

Interesting sentence from that article:

...Only a small minority of Europe's asylum seekers wants to cross the Channel to the UK, but it is rendered highly visible by this country's particular geographical and political situation.....

If that is accurate what we have is the perception of an issue not matching the reality, which is never easy to deal with.

I'm sure that's true too.

We don't seem to get many Moroccans (or North Africans in general) coming to the UK; I guess they must stay in France...

When you have people clinging to the underside of buses, though, it looks like a desperate act, one done out of some perceived, pressing need. That's gotta be something more powerful than simply thinking London might be a nice place to live. What are the "push" factors out of France, Spain and Italy?

[Fiona]

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200304/cmselect/cmhaff/218/3052002.htm

Some interesting stuff here too

[albion]

I'm sure that's true too.

We don't seem to get many Moroccans (or North Africans in general) coming to the UK; I guess they must stay in France...

When you have people clinging to the underside of buses, though, it looks like a desperate act, one done out of some perceived, pressing need. That's gotta be something more powerful than simply thinking London might be a nice place to live. What are the "push" factors out of France, Spain and Italy?

I think the pull of an already established community has to weigh quite heavily. Looking just at London and the South East there are ethnic communities representing much of the countries of the world. If I was in their position, the potential support offered by a whole community of people who speak your language and will hopefully provide help and advice would be a massive bonus.

For many years I worked with immigrants from Somalia and Bangladesh and a number of them expressed to me the importance of this already established support network but also told me of the generally held assumption that immigrants were treated much worse in continental Europe than in the UK (facing more abuse from the populus rather than the state).

[Darat]

I think the pull of an already established community has to weigh quite heavily. Looking just at London and the South East there are ethnic communities representing much of the countries of the world. If I was in their position, the potential support offered by a whole community of people who speak your language and will hopefully provide help and advice would be a massive bonus.

...snip...

But is this unique to the UK?

[albion]

But is this unique to the UK?

I'd imagine not. I'm trying to find a breakdown of french immigrant communities as a comparison but not having much luck. The vast majority of studies seem to be related to the North African communities specifically (and other former French colonies). So perhaps it's simply more likely to be the fact that different communities look to a different country as the most welcoming due to historical ties.

[Fiona]

Not much current information to be found, so far as I can tell.

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=4FQ8NXP_oSIC&pg=PA65&lpg=PA65&dq=smain+laacher&source=bl&ots=kQ9y9XHCGq&sig=Y-v90U1N6GiYNwtgfEk4IVE-eFg&hl=en&ei=1Z51SrbDGtiZjAfZ6oHUBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4#v=onepage&q=smain%20laacher&f=false

Smain Laacher seems to have done the big study Sangatte in 2002 and some information in that link from page 64 on.

This is an oddly obscure field given the high profile of such cases on the popular press: perhaps someone else is having more luck? What does seem to be suggested is that although people are going to great lengths to get to the uk they did not start out with that intention: the numbers are few in comparison with total numbers in each of the european countries discussed: and of course it is very much harder to get to the uk legally since we have no land borders.

One factor which confuses the issue is the comparisons being unfair: for example many illegal immigrants/refugees to mainland europe come overland and are not counted in the same way as those into the uk. High formal asylum applications coupled with smallish high profile illegal entrants (or attempted entrants) into the uk are reversed because of geography in much of europe so far as I can tell.

Confusing picture it seems

[Delvo]

What kinds of work would these immigrants be looking for? The UK is apparently much more urbanized than France or Spain (246 people per square kilometer overall, as opposed to 115 in France and 90 in Spain), so maybe they figure the odds of finding a job are better in a more urban environment.

Another possible factor... whenever I see any "mass media" from France, all I see is white people, and what I see from the UK is probably not much more than half white. Whether this accurately reflects the demographic situation or not, just the fact that it looks that way from the outside might cause a brown or black person in another country to expect to be more welcomed, or less noticed, or more likely to find others like himself/herself, in the country where (s)he sees more people like himself/herself depicted living there.

[lionking]

I know for a fact that in at least parts of Nigeria the UK has a reputation of being a "soft touch" in regards to illegal immigrants being able to scam the social security system. Perhaps this is also prevalent in other countries?
There is some evidence that this is the perception about Australia. Almost all people who arrive on our shores illegally, often after dangerous boat journeys, are accepted and allowed residency.

[Ryokan]

All countries in Europe have illegal immgration. The same is true for Norway, which is pretty much as far 'inland' in Europe as you can get, yet many choose to sneak their way all the way up here.

I guess these people are individuals, with different needs, wants, hopes and dreams. Many also probably have friends and family in different countries.

[Magenta]

Sure. For this specific case. But this happens a lot. There is even a huge impromptu camp at Sangatte, by the port of Calais, where scores of people wait, trying to sneak into Britain. They're already in France, and the French authorities don't seem to mind much. So why risk this dangerous next stage? What's the benefit? I don't really get it!

There was a segment on the 7.30 Report on ABC TV last month about the Afghan refugees outside Calais trying to get to Britain. Some excerpts from the transcript:

PHILIP WILLIAMS, REPORTER: For hundreds of asylum seekers this is the gateway to paradise. The port of Calais is the main freight link between England and Europe and that means trucks - thousands of them - on and off the ferries, 24 hours a day. Every one a potential free ride. It's a mad game of hide and seek, where even stopping for fuel is risky.

[...]

PHILIP WILLIAMS: All the boys - and they are just boys, are heading for Britain where they are all convinced life will be so much better than anywhere else in Europe.

AFGHAN ASYLUM SEEKER: If you go there and go to the main police station to have asylum they give you homes and expenses in daily life. You can study there. So if you - I mean asylum especially in France, they don't give you home, you will live here. The people, many people are given asylum here, but they are still living here for two, three months.

[...]

PHILIP WILLIAMS: [...] In Calais the French have grown used to sharing their city with these uninvited visitors. Some resent their presence; most we spoke to were sympathetic, but tired of it all.

Seven years ago the French bowed to pressure from the British and shut down this massive shelter where the Red Cross cared for the would-be immigrants. The theory was: no accommodation, no people. But the problem simply moved to the jungle and it was left to the local French charities to feed them.

Every day around 700 mainly Afghan men and boys line up for their free meal. It's been a struggle for the local charity because each year the numbers grow and the charity workers say French police are harassing the clients.

VINCENT LENOIR, SALAM CHARITY: Always they know about France - is police who comes every night to destroy the houses they have built inside the jungle, to burn the tents, to use gas on the blankets, so how could we imagine that the - would like to stay in France, it's impossible. That's why they don't want to stay in France also.

[...]

Desperate and stateless: asylum seekers converge on Dover (http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2009/s2625865.htm) (video also available at this link)


Seems like it would not be in the interests of the the French authorities to discourage the idea that things are better elsewhere for the refugees.

[Darth Rotor]

Sure. For this specific case. But this happens a lot. There is even a huge impromptu camp at Sangatte, by the port of Calais, where scores of people wait, trying to sneak into Britain. They're already in France, and the French authorities don't seem to mind much. So why risk this dangerous next stage? What's the benefit? I don't really get it!

The dental care.

[dudalb]

It sure ain't the weather.....

[Soapy Sam]

Just one moment, Darat.
Are you suggesting some of these foreign johnnies may not want to sneak into our wonderful country and live off the Soapy-paid for welfare state?

Well why the hell not, I want to know?

Think they're too bally good for us , eh? Serves us right for civilisin 'em in the first place.

[Eddie Dane]

Following this (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8180120.stm) story about a man clinging to the underside of a coach full of Border Agency Officers in order to illegally immigrate into the UK, I started wondering: what's so great about Britain that it makes hanging on the underside of a coach worthwhile? Why not stay in France, or Spain, or Italy?


Man, once you arrive in Italy and you see the weather, the women and taste the food...

... you just hang yourself under a lorry like Robert DeNiro in Cape fear and in a mere fifty hours you can enjoy rain, fish and chips and counsel estates full of pale overweight chain-smoking damsels.

Yeah, I can see that.

[shemp]

The dental care.

And the cuisine.

[Information Analyst]

Another possible factor... whenever I see any "mass media" from France, all I see is white people, and what I see from the UK is probably not much more than half white. Whether this accurately reflects the demographic situation or not, just the fact that it looks that way from the outside might cause a brown or black person in another country to expect to be more welcomed, or less noticed, or more likely to find others like himself/herself, in the country where (s)he sees more people like himself/herself depicted living there.
The population of England & Wales is 92.1% white - higher in Scotland & Northern Ireland. Urban population centres tend to have a higher proportion of non-whites, and indeed 45% of the non-White population lives in London. Obviously the latter is a factor in media "visibility," as it's where most of that media is based. A very rough calculation based on those percentages puts the number of non-white people in London at 1,898,025. The population of London as a whole is 7,556,900.

[Cainkane1]

Oh well at least you don't share your borders with Mexico.

[Soapy Sam]

Sat here watching the Scottish rain, I believe I'd be willing to risk one border.
I mean - look who we have next door now.

[funk de fino]

The dental care.

Seriously, have you seen our teeth?

[Information Analyst]

Sat here watching the Scottish rain, I believe I'd be willing to risk one border.
If it's any consolation, it's hissing down in London, as well!