Why can't America be more like Venezuela?

[RandFan]

34 radio stations forced off air in Venezuela (http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5iCcAJIcCkFxq318tiWULvz7P5-nwD99RN4CG1)

I can't help but imagine all that George Bush could have accomplished if he could have just silenced the opposition. I think that what we need is creativity to come up with pretexts to silence people and stop dissent the way Chavez has done. By finding excuses you change the focus from stifling expression to stopping criminals and there is no worse criminal than one who would illegally use radio waves to criticize government.

We can dream.

[Darth Rotor]

34 radio stations forced off air in Venezuela (http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5iCcAJIcCkFxq318tiWULvz7P5-nwD99RN4CG1)

I can't help but imagine all that George Bush could have accomplished if he could have just silenced the opposition.


He was to busy trying to finish reading that book about :goat s.

DR

[Fnord]

There was no point in silencing the opposition after that "Mission Accomplished" announcement...

:oldroll:

[RandFan]

He was to busy trying to finish reading that book about :goat s.

DR:D

[Skeptic]

Yet another "socialist revolutionary" turns out to be a tin-pot dictator, just as everybody with a bit of common sense predicted -- and the "progressive human rights supporters" folks insisted was all "right-wing propaganda".

Surprise, surprise, surprise.

[funk de fino]

Unusual for certain Hugo defenders not to be in here castigating people for criticizing their hero.

I wonder if some are beginning to see the light?

[dann]

I guess I know as little about conditions in Venezuela as most of you do, but it wasn’t difficult to find this article:
Venezuela to Transfer Private Media Concessions to Community Media (http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/news/4683)
In relation to a call by the private television station Globovision to protest in the streets against the measure, Cabello responded, "if you want to protest do so, but do not try to subvert the constitutional order, or call violent protests."
Around 200 people gathered to protest the decision outside the offices of CNB on Saturday and on Monday a small group of journalists rallied in front of CONATEL.
However, many Venezuelans share little sympathy for the private media due to its role in the April 2002 coup that briefly ousted President Hugo Chavez from power. Private television and radio stations collaborated directly with the coup regime and imposed a media blackout, broadcasting cartoons and soap operas.
On July 23 the National Association of Free and Alternative Community Media (AMCLA), held a rally in Caracas calling for radio and television airwaves to be handed over to the people. Then on Sunday several hundred people rallied in front of CONATEL in support of the government measure.
So why can’t Venezuela be more like America (http://www.pinknews.co.uk/news/articles/2005-4113.html) where the media appear to voluntarily boycott popbands like the Dixie Chicks if they express fairly innocent anti-establishment sentiments?

[funk de fino]

I guess I know as little about conditions in Venezuela as most of you do, but it wasn’t difficult to find this article:
Venezuela to Transfer Private Media Concessions to Community Media (http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/news/4683)

So why can’t Venezuela be more like America (http://www.pinknews.co.uk/news/articles/2005-4113.html) where the media appear to voluntarily boycott popbands like the Dixie Chicks if they express fairly innocent anti-establishment sentiments?


Ha ha, you have just linked to the Fox new of venezuela. A site that links to and uses editorials from sites that openly admit their own bias.

Try again.

There is no evidence that coup plotters and the media collaborated in a coup. The private media supported the protests, nothing else.

oh, and from your link.

The unofficial ban allegedly in place against Pink is reminiscent of the boycott the Dixie Chicks suffered after they expressed their opposition to the Iraq war.

[Beerina]

Huh.


I guess demagogues leading the people on crusades to seize control of the press makes it ok because lots of people are behind him.

The US should change its constitution to allow this, too!


Oh, wait. Weasels are already trying to figure a way to work around it (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&q="hush+rush"+"fairness+in+broadcasting") while seeming to be in favor of free speech.




http://i284.photobucket.com/albums/ll38/Gnurl/TrollingM184R02086x4_PB_09_700.jpg

[dann]

Ha ha, you have just linked to the Fox new of venezuela.

Sorry, I thought that Fox was a Venezuelan network (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=149489). My bad - and thank you for emphasizing the quotation - as if I hadn't noticed.

[Alt+F4]

Unusual for certain Hugo defenders not to be in here castigating people for criticizing their hero.

I wonder if some are beginning to see the light?

No, it's just still early in most of the United States.

[dudalb]

Our resident hard line Marxist shows up defending Hugo and advocating government seizure of the media. Big Surprise...

[theprestige]

So why can’t Venezuela be more like America[/url][/b][/i] where the media appear to voluntarily boycott popbands like the Dixie Chicks if they express fairly innocent anti-establishment sentiments?
Let me understand: You're seriously complaining that we don't have enough Dixie Chicks in the news?

ETA: I mean, of all the problems American society has right now, I'd put "lack of Dixie Chicks media coverage" pretty close to the bottom of the list.

[Eyeron]

Actually there is the Fairness Doctrine and that many liberals want to silence Fox News for giving conservatives a voice. That's why all the hate towards Fox News. If it didn't give conservatgives a voice in the media then you probably wouldn't be hearing all kinds of sayhings like Faux News or questionaing its credibility.

The Fairness Doctrine, in principle, says that any media must give equal trime to an opposing viewpoint. For example, a conservative boradcast must give fifteen minutes to each conservative and liberal views. However, it runs the risk of things like giving more air time to other fringe philosphies. For example, it would force a science broadcast to give time to explain Intelligent Design.

So in effect it could silence many radio stations, especially those that express unpopular view points by forcing those unpopular viewpoints to give time to popular view points since popular view points always strive to drown out unpopular ones.

[Ferguson]

I guess I know as little about conditions in Venezuela as most of you do, but it wasn’t difficult to find this article:
Venezuela to Transfer Private Media Concessions to Community Media (http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/news/4683)

So why can’t Venezuela be more like America (http://www.pinknews.co.uk/news/articles/2005-4113.html) where the media appear to voluntarily boycott popbands like the Dixie Chicks if they express fairly innocent anti-establishment sentiments?

Wait, which Dixie Chicks are we talking about? The Dixie Chicks I'd never heard of until their "anti-establishment sentiments" led them to be plastered all over the media, ad nauseam. Those Dixie Chicks? I think that word, "boycott," does not mean what you think it means.

[tyr_13]

Actually there is the Fairness Doctrine and that many liberals want to silence Fox News for giving conservatives a voice. That's why all the hate towards Fox News. If it didn't give conservatgives a voice in the media then you probably wouldn't be hearing all kinds of sayhings like Faux News or questionaing its credibility.

This is a poorly constructed strawman of the actual criticism of Fox News.


The Fairness Doctrine, in principle, says that any media must give equal trime to an opposing viewpoint. For example, a conservative boradcast must give fifteen minutes to each conservative and liberal views. However, it runs the risk of things like giving more air time to other fringe philosphies. For example, it would force a science broadcast to give time to explain Intelligent Design.

Which is why this 'Fairness Doctrine' is so silly. For one it assumes there is an opposite side and not several different positions to any issue. This is the same Doctrine that Creationists use to try to get Creationism taught in schools as presenting 'both sides' of the argument. There is science, and there is non-science. Why not give equal time to the Mandinka creation myth? The Seneca?

The 'Fairness Doctrine' sounds good on the surface, but quickly falls apart. Another reason is it lends apparent credibility to fringe ideas and straight out lies. (Truthers and Birthers anyone?)


So in effect it could silence many radio stations, especially those that express unpopular view points by forcing those unpopular viewpoints to give time to popular view points since popular view points always strive to drown out unpopular ones.

I like the 'open and free exchange of ideas' plan better personally. Your millage may vary.

[leftysergeant]

The Fairness Doctrine has not existed since Reagan did away with it. That then allowed idiots like Hannity and the fat deaf eunuch to take over the AM band.

It is an ownership problem. When the de-regulation craze hit, large media companies were allowed to consolidate all the media under fewer and fewer corporate brands, crowding out any alternative voices.

It is in the interests of the corporate media owners to have only right-wing blather on the airwaves, and that is what we get.

Centralized ownership of our basic infrastructure in private hands is a greater threat to our liberty and to the truth than is any sort of government regulation and limits on how many media outlets one company can own.

[RandFan]

I like the 'open and free exchange of ideas' plan better personally. :) AKA Democracy. My ideas don't win out often but I wouldn't have it any other way.

[Skeptic]

Let me understand: You're seriously complaining that we don't have enough Dixie Chicks in the news?.

No, he is claiming that some US stations not playing the Dixie Chicks is exactly the same thing like Chavez taking over all the media, so the US is just like Venezuela in terms of human rights and freedom, so there's nothing to complain about.

Of course the two things are not remotely similar, but hey, you got to shift the discussion to blaming the USA somehow. Otherwise, the obvious point -- that your socialist messiah turned out to be a dictator, like all the other ones -- would be too clear.

And that would mean you were wrong in supporting Chavez against the "right wing propaganda" that claimed he is a dictator, which is impossible: sensitive, with-it, pro-socialism, anti-Bush people like you are never wrong.

It's the usual tu quoque Marxist apology for terror -- best known in the guise of comparing McCarthy to Stalin, as if 500 people losing their job is equal to 30,000,000 or so losing their lives.

[funk de fino]

Sorry, I thought that Fox was a Venezuelan network (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=149489). My bad - and thank you for emphasizing the quotation - as if I hadn't noticed.

Is that all you have to back up your horrendous opening post in this thread.

I guess its better to just give up after a start like that eh?

[Travis]

The Dixie Chicks were in a genre of music that was largely consumed by huge Bush supporters. How is it surprising then that they were suddenly not popular, and therefore not being played, after taking the political stance they did? Imagine a punk band suddenly endorsing General Dynamics and how quickly their music would suddenly not be played.

[DC]

Chavez taking over all the media

and reallity

Venezuela still has many private radio stations and newspapers that take a hard line against Chavez and strongly criticize the government through both news reports and commentary. But in the last decade, the government has built a growing coalition of state-run media outlets, and some TV channels once virulently anti-Chavez have toned down their criticism.

i dont know the details about this, was more reading about the Irani showtrials.

but so far i would not want to defend it, but nor would i extremly exegerate it like others do here.

since years we hear claims from the right wing that there is no freedom of expression in Venezuela. obviesly until now this was a lie.

its just strange that in a Nation where the big Majority is pro Chavez government there ae so many TV and Radio channels ranting against said government. i thought the free market would make such stations to tune down their criticism to please their costumers.

forcing them of the air is sure not the right way. but not sure if that is the case. need to read more about it first.

[DC]

Is that all you have to back up your horrendous opening post in this thread.

I guess its better to just give up after a start like that eh?

what was wrong with his link? what was wrong in the article beside its from a network you dislike?
just pointing out that they are biased is not enough. what are their lies?

[DC]

The Dixie Chicks were in a genre of music that was largely consumed by huge Bush supporters. How is it surprising then that they were suddenly not popular, and therefore not being played, after taking the political stance they did? Imagine a punk band suddenly endorsing General Dynamics and how quickly their music would suddenly not be played.

How often is Pink's Dear Mr. President running on the Radio?

[funk de fino]

what was wrong with his link? what was wrong in the article beside its from a network you dislike?
just pointing out that they are biased is not enough. what are their lies?

It is a parroting of the venezuela state excuses for the shutting down of people who criticize the govt. I guess it is OK to use openly bias sites then is it?

[funk de fino]

How often is Pink's Dear Mr. President running on the Radio?

Did the Bush govt shut down the stations playing it? The program she did the inteview in that the other guy linked to played it.

Try again.

If some station choose not to play a tune then that is up to them. If they choose to play it then hey ho. The govt should stay out of it.

Unless you can show me where the USG stopped anyone playing Pink?

[DC]

It is a parroting of the venezuela state excuses for the shutting down of people who criticize the govt. I guess it is OK to use openly bias sites then is it?

what points in the article are wrong?

[DC]

Did the Bush govt shut down the stations playing it? The program she did the inteview in that the other guy linked to played it.

Try again.

If some station choose not to play a tune then that is up to them. If they choose to play it then hey ho. The govt should stay out of it.

Unless you can show me where the USG stopped anyone playing Pink?

no government needs to do anything when stations are censoring themself.

[funk de fino]

no government needs to do anything when stations are censoring themself.

Freedom of choice, some do, some dont. thanks for proving my point.

[funk de fino]

what points in the article are wrong?

here are two for a start.

However, many Venezuelans share little sympathy for the private media due to its role in the April 2002 coup that briefly ousted President Hugo Chavez from power.

Provide proof this is true as I seen polls before where 70% were against the last TV station shutdown.


Private television and radio stations collaborated directly with the coup regime and imposed a media blackout, broadcasting cartoons and soap operas.

Collaborated how? Because they stop reporting on something? Or cause they asked people to protest?

[dann]

its just strange that in a Nation where the big Majority is pro Chavez government there ae so many TV and Radio channels ranting against said government. i thought the free market would make such stations to tune down their criticism to please their costumers.

Well, it isn't very strange. A commercial channel is never interested in the majority of people, it caters to purchasing power: People who want to sell their products through commercials won't be interested in addressing the penniless.
So you have to consider: Who has the money in Venezuela?
Probably not the Chavez supporters!
Would it be a good business strategy to cater to his followers?
No, probably not.
And if we are talking about political advertisements, selling these to Chavez supporters would hardly be profitable. We all know where the money is - in Venezuela and in the rest of the world.

[funk de fino]

Heres more about failing to report riots.

http://devilsexcrement.com/2009/07/16/while-curiepes-drums-were-calling-for-war-the-venezuelan-government-censored-them/

sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander I assume.

[funk de fino]

We all know where the money is - in Venezuela and in the rest of the world.

Are you poor and bitter?

[dann]

Would that in any way change the fact that I refer to?

[DC]

here are two for a start.



Provide proof this is true as I seen polls before where 70% were against the last TV station shutdown.




Collaborated how? Because they stop reporting on something? Or cause they asked people to protest?

you provide proof that their claim is wrong.... your claim, your burdon.

why ask me? ask those who wrote the article. that wasnt me.

[DC]

Well, it isn't very strange. A commercial channel is never interested in the majority of people, it caters to purchasing power: People who want to sell their products through commercials won't be interested in addressing the penniless.
So you have to consider: Who has the money in Venezuela?
Probably not the Chavez supporters!
Would it be a good business strategy to cater to his followers?
No, probably not.
And if we are talking about political advertisements, selling these to Chavez supporters would hardly be profitable. We all know where the money is - in Venezuela and in the rest of the world.

that is true

[dann]

you provide proof that their claim is wrong.... your claim, your burdon.

why ask me? ask those who wrote the article. that wasnt me.
Right now funk de fino seems to be more interested in doing a Slimething:
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=2232218#post2232218
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=2232734#post2232734

[funk de fino]

you provide proof that their claim is wrong.... your claim, your burdon.

Sorry, it is their claim and it is wrong.

why ask me? ask those who wrote the article. that wasnt me.

You asked me, you decided to jump in. Are you going to flee as well?

[funk de fino]

Would that in any way change the fact that I refer to?

I would know where your anger and bias came from.

[dann]

No, you would merely know how to justify your strawman.

[DC]

Sorry, it is their claim and it is wrong.



You asked me, you decided to jump in. Are you going to flee as well?

you claim its wrong, what is your evidence?

[funk de fino]

No, you would merely know how to justify your strawman.

Not going to answer then?

Globovison is the last anti govt private station in Venezeuela so how does that figure into your paranoid ramblings about the business of TV?

Where are the rest who want to pander to the rich anti-chavistas?

[funk de fino]

you claim its wrong, what is your evidence?

Here.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/spanish/latin_america/newsid_6598000/6598159.stm

70% were against the closure from the airwaves of RCTV.

[DC]

Here.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/spanish/latin_america/newsid_6598000/6598159.stm

70% were against the closure from the airwaves of RCTV.

you got that in english with source for the poll?

[dann]

"paranoid ramblings"??! Doesn't fdf know anything about the business strategies of commercial channels?

[funk de fino]

you got that in english with source for the poll?


The number 70% is in spanish then? Stop being a child and translate it.

[funk de fino]

"paranoid ramblings"??! Doesn't fdf know anything about the business strategies of commercial channels?

Why is there only globovision left then if you business model is true?

[DC]

The number 70% is in spanish then? Stop being a child and translate it.

but i cant understand who made the poll.
you got a source for the poll?

[DC]

Why is there only globovision left then if you business model is true?

what do you mean with "only globovision left" ?

[dann]

Interesting.
"Esta es la primera acción de Chávez a contrapelo, contra las mayorías. Que no toma en cuenta la decisión soberana del pueblo como él mismo vende la base de su revolución"
Luís Vicente León, socio director de Datanalisis
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/spanish/latin_america/newsid_6598000/6598159.stm

[funk de fino]

what do you mean with "only globovision left" ?

Only private station openly critical of Hugoagogo.

[funk de fino]

but i cant understand who made the poll.
you got a source for the poll?

heres another poll.

83%

http://english.eluniversal.com/2007/06/01/en_pol_art_eighty-three-percent_01A878331.shtml


Yes, I do have sources but you asked for evidence and I have held your hand enough.

[funk de fino]

For those who now want to try and use bias arguments after dismissing them earlier

fill your boots.

http://www.datanalisis.com/website/site/p_contenido.asp

[dann]

Why is there only globovision left then if you business model is true?

Could it be because Chavez and his followers aren't particularly happy with that business model and therefore have suspended it? (Just a guess. I don't live in Venezuela.)

[DC]

heres another poll.

83%

http://english.eluniversal.com/2007/06/01/en_pol_art_eighty-three-percent_01A878331.shtml


Yes, I do have sources but you asked for evidence and I have held your hand enough.

thanks will have a look at their poll.

hey thats the way it works here on this scpetics forum, you should know that from the 9/11 section.

[DC]

Only private station openly critical of Hugoagogo.

yep, isnt that strange? those people runn stations, where the people decide the programm are not Government bashing stations. its understandable on the State run stations, but those people run stations are pro grovernment.

wonders what precentage of people are represented with the gov bashing stations.

[funk de fino]

Could it be because Chavez and his followers aren't particularly happy with that business model and therefore have suspended it? (Just a guess. I don't live in Venezuela.)

So now we are back at post # 1

Yippee

[funk de fino]

yep, isnt that strange? those people runn stations, where the people decide the programm are not Government bashing stations. its understandable on the State run stations, but those people run stations are pro grovernment.

wonders what precentage of people are represented with the gov bashing stations.

No, there are private stations who have stopped being anti govt because of the consequences.

Rioters attacking your employeees and offices, govt taking you to court, and govt closing down your station and recinding the right to broadcast on the airwaves. I guess some would rather let themsleves be stifled.

[DC]

No, there are private stations who have stopped being anti govt because of the consequences.

Rioters attacking your employeees and offices, govt taking you to court, and govt closing down your station and recinding the right to broadcast on the airwaves. I guess some would rather let themsleves be stifled.

you left out another consequence. they feared to loose costumers? Most people are pro government and pro chavez.

[Travis]

How often is Pink's Dear Mr. President running on the Radio?

Beats me, I don't listen to the radio and know nothing of the song as I never cared for Pink's music.

[dann]

A commercial channel is never interested in the majority of people, it caters to purchasing power: People who want to sell their products through commercials won't be interested in addressing the penniless.
So you have to consider: Who has the money in Venezuela?
Probably not the Chavez supporters!
Would it be a good business strategy to cater to his followers?
No, probably not.
And if we are talking about political advertisements, selling these to Chavez supporters would hardly be profitable. We all know where the money is - in Venezuela and in the rest of the world.
Why is there only globovision left then if you business model is true?
Could it be because Chavez and his followers aren't particularly happy with that business model and therefore have suspended it? (Just a guess. I don't live in Venezuela.)
So now we are back at post # 1

Yippee

Did post # 1 really say that Chavez and his followers aren't happy with a business model that caters only to the rich, which is why they decided to remodel Venezuelan society and media in accordance with the wishes and needs of the majority of the people - so far with only one exception, apparently:
"Esta es la primera acción de Chávez a contrapelo, contra las mayorías. Que no toma en cuenta la decisión soberana del pueblo como él mismo vende la base de su revolución"
Luís Vicente León, socio director de Datanalisis
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/spanish/latin_america/newsid_6598000/6598159.stm

Well, in that case (but only in that case!) I have no objections to the OP. My bad!

[dann]

PS Why cannot America be more like Venezuela?

[DC]

why is funk de fino claiming that Globo is the last remaining critical TV station? even the article from the OP contradicts that claim.

[funk de fino]

you left out another consequence. they feared to loose costumers? Most people are pro government and pro chavez.

Thats not how dann says it works. I suggest you take it up with him.

[DC]

Thats not how dann says it works. I suggest you take it up with him.

so you agree with him on that point

[dann]

He must, mustn't he? :)

[funk de fino]

why is funk de fino claiming that Globo is the last remaining critical TV station? even the article from the OP contradicts that claim.

You know what I meant DC. I have to put things in baby speak for you, because you routinely misinterpret things due to your poor english!!

[dann]

why is funk de fino claiming that Globo is the last remaining critical TV station? even the article from the OP contradicts that claim.

I guess it serves his purpose ...

[funk de fino]

From the OP

The only stridently anti-Chavez television channel that remains on the open airwaves, Globovision, is facing multiple investigations that could force it off the air.

well?

[DC]

You know what I meant DC. I have to put things in baby speak for you, because you routinely misinterpret things due to your poor english!!

no i dont know what you mean.

so you didnt mean that Globo is the last remaining gov critical station?

[funk de fino]

so you agree with him on that point

No, you just make stuff up again. That figures.

[dann]

You know what I meant, DC. I have to put things in baby speak for you, because you routinely misinterpret things due to your poor English!!

That is so kind of you, fdf.

[funk de fino]

no i dont know what you mean.

so you didnt mean that Globo is the last remaining gov critical station?

Post # 69

I note you left out "TV" this time!!

[funk de fino]

That is so kind of you, fdf.

Try this one teacher

no i dont know what you mean.

so you didnt mean that Globo is the last remaining gov critical station?

[DC]

From the OP



well?

aah open airwaves. those airwaves belonging to the people, and the government of the people decided not to have that much Government bashing and propaganda on those public airwaves that belong to those people that the majority of voted for the recent government.

i do not really support those things by the Venezuelan government. But i can indeed undersand them.

the people in Venezuela try to build up a working model of Socialism. and have those huge news outlets spreading propaganda and lies against it.

Constructive criticism is very important, propaganda not so much.

but that is a hard conflict, the majority wants to live in Socialism, a minority wants not to.

[DC]

That is so kind of you, fdf.

:D

you are mean :D

[funk de fino]

Did post # 1 really say that Chavez and his followers aren't happy with a business model that caters only to the rich

No.

But it was about this

which is why they decided to remodel Venezuelan society and media in accordance with the wishes and needs of the majority of the people - so far with only one exception, apparently:

Where is the evidence that this remodelling is what was wanted by the people? I have given evidence that says this is not what they want.

[funk de fino]

aah open airwaves. those airwaves belonging to the people, and the government of the people decided not to have that much Government bashing and propaganda on those public airwaves that belong to those people that the majority of voted for the recent government.

i do not really support those things by the Venezuelan government. But i can indeed undersand them.

the people in Venezuela try to build up a working model of Socialism. and have those huge news outlets spreading propaganda and lies against it.

Constructive criticism is very important, propaganda not so much.

but that is a hard conflict, the majority wants to live in Socialism, a minority wants not to.

I was right and you were wrong then. You think it OK for govt to stifle criticism.

Please show the lies that Globo spread? Evidence?

You really want a govt controlled state with no-one allowed to make criticisms? You surprise me. Its only one station, he has plenty of stations sreading his propoganda.

PS A lot of the cable systems were nothing to do with the govt actually.

[dann]

Where is the evidence that this remodelling is what was wanted by the people? I have given evidence that says this is not what they want.

Didn't you read the quotation from the article you linked to?
"Esta es la primera acción de Chávez a contrapelo, contra las mayorías. Que no toma en cuenta la decisión soberana del pueblo como él mismo vende la base de su revolución"
Luís Vicente León, socio director de Datanalisis



Try this one teacher

I'm not quite sure ... which teacher do you want me to try?

Why is there only globovision left then if you business model is true?

For those who now want to try and use bias arguments after dismissing them earlier

fill your boots.

Wouldn't it be simpler to accept each other's ... linguistic idiosyncracies?

[funk de fino]

Can someone plese explain how a station making a free choice as to whether to play a pop song or not is the same as a state systematically closing down critical media?

Anyone?

[DC]

No.

But it was about this



Where is the evidence that this remodelling is what was wanted by the people? I have given evidence that says this is not what they want.

when it is not what the people wanted, why didnt anyone start an initiative to change the licencing process?

[dann]

You really want a govt controlled state with no-one allowed to make criticisms?

Yes, let's have another straw man (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man) argument, fdf.

[DC]

I was right and you were wrong then. You think it OK for govt to stifle criticism.

Please show the lies that Globo spread? Evidence?

You really want a govt controlled state with no-one allowed to make criticisms? You surprise me. Its only one station, he has plenty of stations sreading his propoganda.

PS A lot of the cable systems were nothing to do with the govt actually.

i do not really support those things by the Venezuelan government.

good enough Enlish for you? or in what language shall i type it so you understand it?

[DC]

fdf is the strawman master.

[funk de fino]

Didn't you read the quotation from the article you linked to?

I'm not quite sure ... which teacher do you want me to try?

Wouldn't it be simpler to accept each other's ... linguistic idiosyncracies?

Care to come back with something that disproves the two polls I gave, that backed up my claims, and showed the site you linked to, to be in error?

Language idiosyncracies are one thing. A missing capital, missing comma or a misspelled word here and there. I have had enough dealings with DC to know that I have to watch what I post as he routinely fails to understand it due to english being his second language. Thats as well as when he blatantly makes up stuff that I have not even said.

But then again, you knew that.

[DC]

i do not really support those things by the Venezuelan government.

good enough Enlish for you? or in what language shall i type it so you understand it?

btw, RCTV reported about death people in the 2002 coup while the coup didnt even take place yet, according to a reported that was interviewed by CNN. just one example. but this would lead OT.

[funk de fino]

i do not really support those things by the Venezuelan government.

good enough Enlish for you? or in what language shall i type it so you understand it?

Got those lies or propoganda yet?

You do not support but you defend then?

[funk de fino]

btw, RCTV reported about death people in the 2002 coup while the coup didnt even take place yet, according to a reported that was interviewed by CNN. just one example. but this would lead OT.

Please put this into an understandable post and give me evidence for what it is you are trying to claim.

Unless danna can translate?

[DC]

Care to come back with something that disproves the two polls I gave, that backed up my claims, and showed the site you linked to, to be in error?

Language idiosyncracies are one thing. A missing capital, missing comma or a misspelled word here and there. I have had enough dealings with DC to know that I have to watch what I post as he routinely fails to understand it due to english being his second language. Thats as well as when he blatantly makes up stuff that I have not even said.

But then again, you knew that.

what are complaing about making up stuff, just a few posts ago you posted a huge lie about me, and it was even debunked in the quote you quoted.

its geting laughable FDF.

[funk de fino]

Yes, let's have another straw man (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man) argument, fdf.

So we just claim its a business model reshuffle then eh?

[DC]

Got those lies or propoganda yet?

You do not support but you defend then?

why should i want to defend it?
you blatantly lie about me anyway.

bye bye

[funk de fino]

what are complaing about making up stuff, just a few posts ago you posted a huge lie about me, and it was even debunked in the quote you quoted.

its geting laughable FDF.

So you agree with me that Chavez should leave the radio stations alone and Globo alone?

i do not really support those things by the Venezuelan government. But i can indeed undersand them.

You think it OK for govt to stifle criticism

Now you must forgive me for forgetting a question mark in my post.

Not a lie a question.

[DC]

Please put this into an understandable post and give me evidence for what it is you are trying to claim.

Unless danna can translate?

read about CNN correspondent Otto Neustald. what was his job on april. 11 in the morning? what was he asked to do?

[funk de fino]

why should i want to defend it?
you blatantly lie about me anyway.

bye bye

Couldn't find the lies or propoganda then?

[funk de fino]

read about CNN correspondent Otto Neustald. what was his job on april. 11 in the morning? what was he asked to do?

Evidence?

This is your MO, I am only doing what you do here.

[DC]

So you agree with me that Chavez should leave the radio stations alone and Globo alone?





Now you must forgive me for forgetting a question mark in my post.

Not a lie a question.

yes, actualy if you read true all those venezuela media thopics, you will find in almost every single one of them exactly that statement. i dont like that part of the Venezuelan politics atm. And i am kinda suprised that it did not cost him more voters. looks indeed like most Venezuelans are not really that much in the defence of private Media, even if 70-80% was against the closure of RCTV. btw. also Venezuelaanalysis did report those 70+% poll results about RCTV.

[DC]

Evidence?

This is your MO, I am only doing what you do here.

what is MO?

btw he is a first hand withness.

he had to do a report about people beeing killed propably from snipers, and in reality this didnt even take place yet, how on earth was the station suposed to know about it when it was not happened yet?
foreknowledge? that would mean very very deeply involved and not the downplayed role you always promote.

[DC]

somehow everything the pro chavez Venezuelaanalysis reports is wrong without reading it, we know that.
and somehow the Anti Chavez stations are supposed to only report fair and balanced, without any bias lies or wrongdoing.

why do you always asume that fdf?

[DC]

and funny enough, when Carmosa was in power, there was indeed a TV station beeing closed down, and not just some licence not renewed, they seized all the stuff from the station. but it was only a peoples run pro revolution station so the outcry was non existance outside venezuela.

[funk de fino]

yes, actualy if you read true all those venezuela media thopics, you will find in almost every single one of them exactly that statement. i dont like that part of the Venezuelan politics atm. And i am kinda suprised that it did not cost him more voters. looks indeed like most Venezuelans are not really that much in the defence of private Media, even if 70-80% was against the closure of RCTV. btw. also Venezuelaanalysis did report those 70+% poll results about RCTV.

I am glad we agree on that then. Let the stations criticize all they want, silencing then only adds fuel to the fire and gives his opponents ammo. Not a very astute move.

If you get large protests in the street against closures then I guess that a lot of people have sypmathy with the stations. Also some who dont. The link was wrong.

[funk de fino]

what is MO?

btw he is a first hand withness.

he had to do a report about people beeing killed propably from snipers, and in reality this didnt even take place yet, how on earth was the station suposed to know about it when it was not happened yet?
foreknowledge? that would mean very very deeply involved and not the downplayed role you always promote.

Evidence man, evidence. Not your claims.

Who asked him to make a report? Was it RCTV? Who did he work for?

[NoZed Avenger]

-- Removed by the Author --

[funk de fino]

somehow everything the pro chavez Venezuelaanalysis reports is wrong without reading it, we know that.
and somehow the Anti Chavez stations are supposed to only report fair and balanced, without any bias lies or wrongdoing.

why do you always asume that fdf?

That would be an incorrect assumption. If a site is open about its bias and admits it or carries reports by people who are openly bias then you have to take it with a pinch of salt, especially when I proved some of the claims it made were incorrect.

Now tell me what media sources have I used in the past? Biased ones? Is everyone critical of Chavez bias? Freedom of speech is exactly that. The stations can be as biased as they want. Chavez has his own biased stations. Christ, have you sen the bias programming in america. As a european used to the BBC et al it is quite unreal.

[funk de fino]

and funny enough, when Carmosa was in power, there was indeed a TV station beeing closed down, and not just some licence not renewed, they seized all the stuff from the station. but it was only a peoples run pro revolution station so the outcry was non existance outside venezuela.


Thats not another one of your two wrongs make a right again is it?

One bad man did it so its OK for my badman to do it? Did you know me then? Did you know what I thought or said about it then?

[DC]

Evidence man, evidence. Not your claims.

Who asked him to make a report? Was it RCTV? Who did he work for?

He himself said it. firsthand witnes.

[DC]

Thats not another one of your two wrongs make a right again is it?

One bad man did it so its OK for my badman to do it? Did you know me then? Did you know what I thought or said about it then?

oh dear. where did i say its OK?

you just read into stuff what you want to read it.

lame attempt.
try again.

[funk de fino]

He himself said it. firsthand witnes.

Where is your evidence of what you are claiming?

He worked for CNN. he has made a claim. It did not involve RCTV. It has since been withdrawn by Otto. It has been denied by his friend who was there.

You do not even know what he claimed do you?

[funk de fino]

oh dear. where did i say its OK?

you just read into stuff what you want to read it.

lame attempt.
try again.

Why mention it then?

[funk de fino]

Now, just remember this is your unintelligible original claim.

btw, RCTV reported about death people in the 2002 coup while the coup didnt even take place yet, according to a reported that was interviewed by CNN. just one example. but this would lead OT.

Evidence please?

[paiute]

I thought this thread was going to be about arepas.

:(

[Travis]

Can someone plese explain how a station making a free choice as to whether to play a pop song or not is the same as a state systematically closing down critical media?

Anyone?

Well, because the song was critical of someone they didn't like stations should have been forced to play it 24/7 until a violent revolution threw the person they didn't like out (and presumably guillotines them in the town square).

But this Chavez guy, he hates America (and everyone in it), and is therefore a saint in their eyes, so anything critical of him must be destroyed.

[DC]

Where is your evidence of what you are claiming?

He worked for CNN. he has made a claim. It did not involve RCTV. It has since been withdrawn by Otto. It has been denied by his friend who was there.

You do not even know what he claimed do you?

ok i didnt know he retracted it. when did he do that?

[funk de fino]

ok i didnt know he retracted it. when did he do that?

You do not even know what he claimed so what difference does make when he retracts it?

Please provide evidence that you even know what he claimed, because what you have claimed he claimed, is incorrect.

[DC]

You do not even know what he claimed so what difference does make when he retracts it?

Please provide evidence that you even know what he claimed, because what you have claimed he claimed, is incorrect.

where and when did he retract it?
was not able to find it on Google.

[funk de fino]

where and when did he retract it?
was not able to find it on Google.

Retract what? What is your claim that he claimed?

You do not even know do you?

Just admit it and I will tell you what he claimed.

[DC]

Retract what? What is your claim that he claimed?

You do not even know do you?

Just admit it and I will tell you what he claimed.

sure i know it, i did rewatch his interview yesterday.
but i was not aware he retracted his claims, that would indeed change it completly. But i was not able to find it on the Net. so i wonder where and when did he withdraw his statement?

and sure i know what he claimed and i also said a CNN corespondant. so i was also aware he worked for CNN.

but back to his withdrawel of the statement. where can i find it? i didnt know that and have no problem admiting it.

[funk de fino]

sure i know it, i did rewatch his interview yesterday.
but i was not aware he retracted his claims, that would indeed change it completly. But i was not able to find it on the Net. so i wonder where and when did he withdraw his statement?

and sure i know what he claimed and i also said a CNN corespondant. so i was also aware he worked for CNN.

but back to his withdrawel of the statement. where can i find it? i didnt know that and have no problem admiting it.


Tell me exactly what he claimed and give me a source then.

Then explain this. This is not anything like what he claimed.

btw, RCTV reported about death people in the 2002 coup while the coup didnt even take place yet, according to a reported that was interviewed by CNN. just one example. but this would lead OT.

[DC]

Tell me exactly what he claimed and give me a source then.

Then explain this. This is not anything like what he claimed.

i was wrong about the RCTV part.

when and where did he retract the statement?
could you please tell me, because if true, we dont need to talk about him anymore anyway.
so where and when did he retract his statement?

[DC]

On the 10th at night they called me on the telephone and said, Otto, tomorrow the 11th there will be a video of Chávez, the march will
go toward the presidential palace, there will be deaths and then 20 military officials of high rank will appear and pronounce themselves against the government of Chávez, and will request his resignation.

[funk de fino]

On the 10th at night they called me on the telephone and said, Otto, tomorrow the 11th there will be a video of Chávez, the march will
go toward the presidential palace, there will be deaths and then 20 military officials of high rank will appear and pronounce themselves against the government of Chávez, and will request his resignation.


That is one "part" of the claim he made. Now lets look at it as we would any other piece of evidence brought here. (Where are your links by the way?)

Some guy says that "friend" phoned him and told him something. Do we believe it? Do we have back up? Do we have evidence?

Now what about the rest of his claims?

[DC]

That is one "part" of the claim he made. Now lets look at it as we would any other piece of evidence brought here. (Where are your links by the way?)

Some guy says that "friend" phoned him and told him something. Do we believe it? Do we have back up? Do we have evidence?

Now what about the rest of his claims?

all this doesnt matter when he retracted his statement.

so once again.

where and when did he retract it?


why is it so hard for you to answer?
we could save alot time with that debate when he really did retract it like you claimed.

http://www.journeyman.tv/?lid=9017

[funk de fino]

all this doesnt matter when he retracted his statement.

so once again.

where and when did he retract it?


why is it so hard for you to answer?
we could save alot time with that debate when he really did retract it like you claimed.

http://www.journeyman.tv/?lid=9017

No, you are wrong and hypocritical. You have made a claim. It is wrong and you have not shown any sources or links for it. You badger me incessantly about this in other threads.

You have given me one part of his claim which is nothing like what you claimed earlier. What is the rest of his claim?

You still have not explained what this post means. It does not make sense.

btw, RCTV reported about death people in the 2002 coup while the coup didnt even take place yet, according to a reported that was interviewed by CNN. just one example. but this would lead OT.
That link is blocked at my work, got another?

[DC]

No, you are wrong and hypocritical. You have made a claim. It is wrong and you have not shown any sources or links for it. You badger me incessantly about this in other threads.

You have given me one part of his claim which is nothing like what you claimed earlier. What is the rest of his claim?

You still have not explained what this post means. It does not make sense.


That link is blocked at my work, got another?

i already said that i was wrong about the RCTV part.

and the rest of his statement does not matter at all when he retracted it.

so once again,

where and when did he retract it?
answer or i must assume you made it up. wouldnt be the first time.

[funk de fino]

i already said that i was wrong about the RCTV part.

and the rest of his statement does not matter at all when he retracted it.

so once again,

where and when did he retract it?
answer or i must assume you made it up. wouldnt be the first time.

So, you admit you dont know what the rest of his claim was?

Where is your evidence his claim is true? I need "proof" as you would say. Is this acceptable to believe what he says about a "friend" teling him something? I thought you were a sceptic?

I will show you where I got the information about him retracting his statement and also give you the names of two guys who say he is lying.

[funk de fino]

answer or i must assume you made it up. wouldnt be the first time.

proof?

[DC]

So, you admit you dont know what the rest of his claim was?

Where is your evidence his claim is true? I need "proof" as you would say. Is this acceptable to believe what he says about a "friend" teling him something? I thought you were a sceptic?

I will show you where I got the information about him retracting his statement and also give you the names of two guys who say he is lying.

he is a first hand witnes.

and yes pls do provide the information.

[funk de fino]

he is a first hand witnes.

and yes pls do provide the information.

What? That is not acceptbale and you know it. You made a claim that was incorrect, on a claim made by someone who has no corroboration? We just believ someone when they tell us something?

I am sure we can ignore this testimony then eh? Its not proof or evidence is it?

You get something when you give me something. You made a claim and it is incorrect and you cannot back it up. Am I right?

[DC]

What? That is not acceptbale and you know it. You made a claim that was incorrect, on a claim made by someone who has no corroboration? We just believ someone when they tell us something?

I am sure we can ignore this testimony then eh? Its not proof or evidence is it?

You get something when you give me something. You made a claim and it is incorrect and you cannot back it up. Am I right?

ok you made it up, nice one, for a minute i belived he did indeed retracted it.

[funk de fino]

ok you made it up, nice one, for a minute i belived he did indeed retracted it.

I have a link to someone on your side saying he ratracted and also a link to two people whoi say he lied.

You have nothing do you? You got it all wrong and could not even back it up.

That is so funny. One day you will actually get one over someone. But not today and not me.

Not I must warn you. This guy is on your side. If you do not believe what he says then you are goiung to look very hypocritical as all you brought was a claim bya man who said his friend phoned him.

BTW I have been to the bookmaker to lay odds on what your next post says.

http://media.www.dailylobo.com/media/storage/paper344/news/2003/02/20/News/Delacour.Ahead.Of.Venezuelan.Game-374833.shtml

Also

At least two other witnesses to these events, Neustaldt's journalist friend[lourdes ubieta] and Vice-Admiral Ramirez say that Neustaldt was lying at the conference and that actually the officers' pronouncement was made after the death of the journalist Jorge Tortoza, which happened at 4:20pm.

However, right after Chavez and the state television channel went public with Neustaldt’s video taped testimony, Neustaldt held a press conference, in which he denied that he said what he seemed to be saying at the conference. According to him, his statements were taken out of context and edited in a way to make it sound like he was saying things he did not say. Ironically, at Neustaldt’s press conference, sitting next to him, was the same lawyer, Carlos Bastidas, who was also the lawyer defending Vice-Admiral Ramirez. A few days later, Venezuela’s state TV decided to show the entire conference video and it was obvious that nothing Neustaldt said was taken out of context.

http://www.venezuelasolidarity.org/?q=node/108

Your claim was wrong. It relied on the words of one man. It did not involve RCTV. His claims are contradictory anyway. Hopefully you will look sceptically at this as the links are from some of your type of sites.

I await your apology for inferring I was lying.

[DC]

I have a link to someone on your side saying he ratracted and also a link to two people whoi say he lied.

You have nothing do you? You got it all wrong and could not even back it up.

That is so funny. One day you will actually get one over someone. But not today and not me.

Not I must warn you. This guy is on your side. If you do not believe what he says then you are goiung to look very hypocritical as all you brought was a claim bya man who said his friend phoned him.

BTW I have been to the bookmaker to lay odds on what your next post says.

http://media.www.dailylobo.com/media/storage/paper344/news/2003/02/20/News/Delacour.Ahead.Of.Venezuelan.Game-374833.shtml

Also





http://www.venezuelasolidarity.org/?q=node/108

Your claim was wrong. It relied on the words of one man. It did not involve RCTV. His claims are contradictory anyway. Hopefully you will look sceptically at this as the links are from some of your type of sites.

I await your apology for inferring I was lying.

wait a minute, you said i shall not belive just that one guy Otto without evidence. and now you want me to just belive another guy's word without evidence?

and you call me Hypocrite?

LOL you are too funny :)

[DC]

I have a link to someone on your side saying he ratracted and also a link to two people whoi say he lied.

You have nothing do you? You got it all wrong and could not even back it up.

That is so funny. One day you will actually get one over someone. But not today and not me.

Not I must warn you. This guy is on your side. If you do not believe what he says then you are goiung to look very hypocritical as all you brought was a claim bya man who said his friend phoned him.

BTW I have been to the bookmaker to lay odds on what your next post says.

http://media.www.dailylobo.com/media/storage/paper344/news/2003/02/20/News/Delacour.Ahead.Of.Venezuelan.Game-374833.shtml

Also





http://www.venezuelasolidarity.org/?q=node/108

Your claim was wrong. It relied on the words of one man. It did not involve RCTV. His claims are contradictory anyway. Hopefully you will look sceptically at this as the links are from some of your type of sites.

I await your apology for inferring I was lying.

thanks for the links, very interesting.

According to that report, Neustald confirmed the footage and the general's foreknowledge. One month later, he resigned from CNN and retracted his statements, according to Delacour. Delacour cites Neustald as one of several journalists who has suffered repercussions from the Venezuelan opposition.

at also puts the polls we had earlier in this topic into a new light :)

[funk de fino]

thanks for the links, very interesting.

at also puts the polls we had earlier in this topic into a new light :)

Both of them? BTW I won my bet.

Any proof of the repercussions?

I am waiting for the apology DC.

[funk de fino]

wait a minute, you said i shall not belive just that one guy Otto without evidence. and now you want me to just belive another guy's word without evidence?

and you call me Hypocrite?

LOL you are too funny :)

No, I have given you two links which mention the ratraction and they are both pro Chavez.

rememebr this guy?

Gregory Wilpert

Try reading the links again.

Then apologise again.

[DC]

Both of them? BTW I won my bet.

Any proof of the repercussions?

I am waiting for the apology DC.

the 80% poll was conducted by Phone like your link said.
and thats exactly something pointed out in this new link of yours.

[DC]

No, I have given you two links which mention the ratraction and they are both pro Chavez.

Try reading the links again.

Then apologise again.

but as non of them presented evidence, i should not belive any of them, according to you.

i should dismiss the first hand witness account from Otto, and also the story about him retracting it.

[funk de fino]

Neustaldt held a press conference,

Well?

[funk de fino]

the 80% poll was conducted by Phone like your link said.
and thats exactly something pointed out in this new link of yours.

Stop changing the subject cause i proved you wrong.

[funk de fino]

but as non of them presented evidence, i should not belive any of them, according to you.

i should dismiss the first hand witness account from Otto, and also the story about him retracting it.

It was two accounts of him retracting it at a press conference. In front of the press. And two people saying he was lying about the time of the video.

[funk de fino]

but as non of them presented evidence, i should not belive any of them, according to you.



This is also lie. You are one who always asks for "proofs" and "evidences" and when I give you something that my friend said you say it is not good enough. Then when link to a site where someone else says it, you say it is bias and you want proof.

Yet, in this thread you made a false claim based on a claim by one person with no proof or evidence just one ohone call. then you start badgering me for a link and calling me a liar even though you had backed up nothing you claimed. the good thing is that everyone can see it written here in black and white.

Every single time I provide you with the links and the evidence and all you had was Ottos claim about a phone call which you then used to make up another false claim. You didnt even get right what he claimed.

[DC]

It was two accounts of him retracting it at a press conference. In front of the press. And two people saying he was lying about the time of the video.

so i should belive those despite they also dont present evidence? how come?

[DC]

This is also lie. You are one who always asks for "proofs" and "evidences" and when I give you something that my friend said you say it is not good enough. Then when link to a site where someone else says it, you say it is bias and you want proof.

Yet, in this thread you made a false claim based on a claim by one person with no proof or evidence just one ohone call. then you start badgering me for a link and calling me a liar even though you had backed up nothing you claimed. the good thing is that everyone can see it written here in black and white.

Every single time I provide you with the links and the evidence and all you had was Ottos claim about a phone call which you then used to make up another false claim. You didnt even get right what he claimed.

so i shall belive those that say he lied, but not belive the witness himself. ok.

[funk de fino]

so i should belive those despite they also dont present evidence? how come?

They are on your side. They are pro Chevez. Why dont you try and ask them or see if you can find out about the press conference he held where he denied it.

Or are you saying this press conferenbce never happened.

Waiting on the apology for saying I was lying about having a link.

[DC]

you belive the guy that claims Otto lyed when it comes to Otto, but do you also belive him about the Venezuelan poll companys cheating?

[DC]

They are on your side. They are pro Chevez. Why dont you try and ask them or see if you can find out about the press conference he held where he denied it.

Or are you saying this press conferenbce never happened.

Waiting on the apology for saying I was lying about having a link.

i will not apologize, i had to ask you so many times i simply had to asume you made it up. your own fault. But that was exactly wath you wanted.

[funk de fino]

Second link writtenb by By: Gregory Wilpert – Venezuelanalysis.com Published: 13/04/07

Very amusing and ironic.

Now you want us not to believe the site you cite all the time.

[DC]

Second link writtenb by

Very amusing and ironic.

Now you want us not to believe the site you cite all the time.

sure not, i got told by a guy that it is like the FOX news of Venezuela :)

[funk de fino]

you belive the guy that claims Otto lyed when it comes to Otto, but do you also belive him about the Venezuelan poll companys cheating?

You are making up stories again DC. Different guys, you are getting mixed up. You really need to read the links again.

Delacour does not think Otto lied about the call or the video, he thinks he lied when he retracted. I do not believe anything delacour says all he was used for (with back up from gregory) was to show you that Otto retracted. I have not even commented on whether think Otto lied about it or not. I am asking for evidence and you have provided zero. You are the one who made the false claims about RCTV and CNN.

You cannot even get your arguments straight.

[funk de fino]

i will not apologize, i had to ask you so many times i simply had to asume you made it up. your own fault. But that was exactly wath you wanted.

You were asked for links also and also sources (you did not provide and ignored questions) and I was not childish enough to call you a liar was I?

I told you i had a link and you said i was lying. you have done this many times and when i give you a link you never apologice for calling me liar.

Very childish and dishonest. Pretty embarassing thread for you actually eh?

[funk de fino]

sure not, i got told by a guy that it is like the FOX news of Venezuela :)

It is, but it is very easy to check and see if this "imaginary" press conference actually took place. You will not check though will you?

Two people did and named people who attended as well as the press. Should be easy for you to find out eh?

[DC]

now to be honest, this time i runned away :)

[funk de fino]

now to be honest, this time i runned away :)

Ha ha, nice one;)