Whale Wars - Heroic or Stupid?

[RandFan]

Whale Wars (http://animal.discovery.com/tv/whale-wars/)

My beef with this show is that I don't like that the Japanese are thumbing their noses at international prohibitions, using a loop hole and claiming to be killing so many whales for scientific research when we all know that is likely bogus. AND the vigilantes are 1 dimensional caricatures. They are so like the folks who cry over the fact that trees die. On top of that they get outraged when people who stand to lose millions respond in a negative way to their monkey-wrenching (http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-monkeywrenching.htm). Their outrage includes anger that the whalers would try to harm the monkey-wrenchers, folks who are only trying to throw acid on to the ships. Bottom line, I don't think that these two wrongs really equate to a right. I don't think that there are any redeeming characters in this mess.

[Monketey Ghost]

Stupid. The "whale savers" seem to be zealots who don't know enough about sailing not to hurt themselves. I saw an episode where the crew seemed inept, and tried to drop a boat in choppy water, and capsized the thing. It would have been funny if they hadn't looked like a bunch of college kids with too much time on their hands.

[shawmutt]

Borderline mentally retarded. Of course, my opinion is slightly biased by the seething hatred I have for all "reality" TV.

[Cleon]

"Whale Wars" is what happens when the irresistible force of stupidity meets the immovable object of insanity.

[RandFan]

"Whale Wars" is what happens when the irresistible force of stupidity meets the immovable object of insanity.I like that. Not the condition just the statement.

[tyr_13]

"Whale Wars" is what happens when the irresistible force of stupidity meets the immovable object of insanity.

Seconded, or thirded, or something.


Umm....right!

[GreNME]

Hey RandFan, if you haven't yet read it I strongly recommend taking a look at the book The Monkey Wrench Gang (http://www.amazon.com/Monkey-Wrench-Gang-Edward-Abbey/dp/094268818X) by Edward Abbey. It's one of the books that inspired a lot of the eco-activist organizational activities since the middle or end of the 1970's, and takes a more interesting look at the issue through fictional characterizations mixed with some real eco-activist concerns of the time. The characters themselves aren't exactly representative of the typical politics of the people you'd find in such groups today (which now tends toward left-leaning-anarchism), but the book itself still tends to be a seminal work to the likes of the Earth First(!) and Earth Liberation Front crowds (though these were the same people who would heckle Abbey 10-12 years later when he spoke publicly).

[Drudgewire]

I'm not advocating using live ammo against the Whale Wars crew, but the day it happens I'll probably giggle a little.

[MG1962]

I almost felt sorry for some of the crew after the last episode. You could see the frustration and fatigue starting to show through as one college level stunt after another failed to slow the Japanese

It is clear that many have the passion and desire, but not the leadership for a sustained or viable assault the Japanese.

They just cant keep comming up with ideas on paper and hope they work in the real world. They need to practice practice practice.......get it right, then try and disrupt the whaling fleet

[geni]

They just cant keep comming up with ideas on paper and hope they work in the real world. They need to practice practice practice.......get it right, then try and disrupt the whaling fleet

Which is expensive.

In any case as the british found out during the cod wars other than attacking fishing nets there are no effective non lethal methods for stopping a determined ship from doing what it wants to do.

[JoeyDonuts]

Which is expensive.

In any case as the british found out during the cod wars other than attacking fishing nets there are no effective non lethal methods for stopping a determined ship from doing what it wants to do.

Not without fairly high-caliber weaponry at any rate. You can "mission kill" a craft by concentrating fire in bursts on their aft section to disable the propulsion and steering systems. This presents additional problems.

You're left with a ship that can't get underway under its own power and has to have an ocean tug drag it back to the nearest port.

You'd have to be able to outmaneuver the vessel to even get a shot at the stern waterline.

You'd have to be a military vessel to even conceive of attempting this.

The only things that the whaling crews can do is what they're doing now - fire hoses discharged at crews in the small boats. Should they decide to maneuver their ship into close quarters with the whaler, there isn't a damn thing the whaler can do about it.

As sam.i.am pointed out in another thread, the Whale Wars crews violate just about every nautical "rule of the road." Their crews are inexperienced and irresponsible, and their captain is a joke. There's going to be a collision at sea one of these days, and it's going to be catastrophic.

And I'm quite certain the story will be spun of the evil whaling ship that rammed a protest vessel. :mad:

As a former Sailor, the antics and general asshattery of the Whale Wars crew make an already dangerous environment incredibly perilous for both sides.

They just cant keep comming up with ideas on paper and hope they work in the real world. They need to practice practice practice.......get it right, then try and disrupt the whaling fleet

You can generate awareness of any perceived or real wrongdoings of the whaling fleets without interfering with their operations at sea like a bunch of jackasses. Shadow them from 200 yards, videotape their activities and prove they're breaking the law. A civilian crew interfering with an underway vessel for any reason is absolutely unacceptable.

It's like protesting a company that dumps illegal waste by trying to ram their trucks off the road and cutting their brake lines.

[rjh01]

This is one issue where I do not like either side. To stop the Japanese from whaling you need to change Japanese public opinion, so that they do not buy whale meat. Not seen much effort doing that. Everything else is just 'feel good' stuff.

[bjornart]

I'm not saying that the Japanese a) are entitled to violate the intent of an agreement they're a part of, or b) are engaging in a sound practice from a conservation point of view, but the moratorium is in the hands of the International (Anti-)Whaling Commission (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Whaling_Commission), so I somewhat understand their choice of action. I think they should man up and "resume" commercial whaling, but for whatever reason they are or were more exposed/vulnerable to international pressure than Norway.

[geni]

Not without fairly high-caliber weaponry at any rate. You can "mission kill" a craft by concentrating fire in bursts on their aft section to disable the propulsion and steering systems. This presents additional problems.

Against a soft skin ship when you don't know that there isn't an engineer working in that area? Not really an option for non leathal.


You're left with a ship that can't get underway under its own power and has to have an ocean tug drag it back to the nearest port.


As sam.i.am pointed out in another thread, the Whale Wars crews violate just about every nautical "rule of the road." Their crews are inexperienced and irresponsible, and their captain is a joke. There's going to be a collision at sea one of these days, and it's going to be catastrophic.

Collisions generaly didn't cause to many problems during the cod wars. Of course crews on both sides knew what they were doing there.


You can generate awareness of any perceived or real wrongdoings of the whaling fleets without interfering with their operations at sea like a bunch of jackasses. Shadow them from 200 yards, videotape their activities and prove they're breaking the law.

Nothing the whaling fleet is doing is illegal.


It's like protesting a company that dumps illegal waste by trying to ram their trucks off the road and cutting their brake lines.

No dumping waste is illegal. Closer to protesting against exporting veal calves useing those kind of methods. Of course that happened:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/veal-protests-could-overwhelm-ports-1571530.html

[GreNME]

As sam.i.am pointed out in another thread, the Whale Wars crews violate just about every nautical "rule of the road." Their crews are inexperienced and irresponsible, and their captain is a joke. There's going to be a collision at sea one of these days, and it's going to be catastrophic.

Actually, they've already done that. The Sea Shepherds have a list of vessels they've sunk, mostly while in port, but they also have a history of collisions where the ship (the one on the show) was accused of purposefully ramming the whalers, and Watson accused the whaling vessel of intentionally moving into its path.

[AWPrime]

I don't really care about either side.

Their outrage includes anger that the whalers would try to harm the monkey-wrenchers, folks who are only trying to throw acid on to the ships.
But to be correct its Butyric Acid, it just mostly stinks.

[JoeyDonuts]

Actually, they've already done that. The Sea Shepherds have a list of vessels they've sunk, mostly while in port, but they also have a history of collisions where the ship (the one on the show) was accused of purposefully ramming the whalers, and Watson accused the whaling vessel of intentionally moving into its path.

WHAT? I confess, I don't watch the show. I've seen enough snippets to know that a full episode would just infuriate me.

Does this Watson screwball have any kind of credentials to operate an oceangoing vessel whatsoever?!?!

And who's bankrolling all this crap? DFM doesn't come cheap, and they seem to have helicopters too. And cute matching uniforms.

[Careyp74]

I'm not advocating using live ammo against the Whale Wars crew, but the day it happens I'll probably giggle a little.

Only saw the previews, but didn't the captain get shot in an episode that aired about two months ago?

I think that with all the sea piracy going on lately, it would be very stupid to run up to any ship with masks on and running the Jolly Roger on the flagstaff. Throwing things at the ship just in case you didn't get their attention yet is suicidal. Some day crew members will be murdered in self defense and the whaling boat would (by law) get off scott free, then everyone will realize how stupid they were acting.

[aggle-rithm]

I don't really care about either side.


But to be correct its Butyric Acid, it just mostly stinks.

I remember that from chemistry class...the active ingredient in BO and skunk scent.

[JoeyDonuts]

Some day crew members will be murdered in self defense

Huh? How's that work?

Oh, and I think the captain getting "shot" is complete bogus. He claims that the bullet penetrated three trauma plates in his bulletproof vest, yet was stopped cold by some kind of anti-whaling medallion he wears.

[JihadJane]

Out of curiosity, who on this thread cares about the whales' fate?

[Leviath]

Oh, and I think the captain getting "shot" is complete bogus. He claims that the bullet penetrated three trauma plates in his bulletproof vest, yet was stopped cold by some kind of anti-whaling medallion he wears.

I saw that episode. First of all, Mythbusters have actually tested these infamous "personal object stopping a bullet"-myths several times. It can be done, but you need a pretty solid object.
Second, if his cute little medallion actually did stop the bullet I still call BS. A bullet with enough energy to penetrate a bullet-proof vest would knock Watson over and possibly break some ribs. You would at least see some ugly bruises on his chest, but if I remember correctly they kinda forgot to show us that.

[GreNME]

WHAT? I confess, I don't watch the show. I've seen enough snippets to know that a full episode would just infuriate me.

Does this Watson screwball have any kind of credentials to operate an oceangoing vessel whatsoever?!?!

And who's bankrolling all this crap? DFM doesn't come cheap, and they seem to have helicopters too. And cute matching uniforms.

Well, I don't watch the show either, but my guess would be that the stuff that winds up on the television show isn't their more radical behaviors. My guess from watching a few episodes on the Animal Planet website for a better idea of what prompted RandFan to start the thread is that the show consists primarily of the bunch of people on the boat constantly reinforcing their confirmation bias in terms of the right-ness of their cause, mixed with minor scuffles and pestering activities couched in the typical reality-TV drama. I doubt the makers of the show would televise his ramming of a whaling vessel if it happened, though the instances I'm aware of happened years ago. For an example (http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=51sQAAAAIBAJ&sjid=zpIDAAAAIBAJ&pg=5728,1161703), and more info (http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=BKYSAAAAIBAJ&sjid=KvkDAAAAIBAJ&pg=6969,1486411)-- note who helped him pay for the ship, particularly Fund for Animals, now absorbed by HSUS, whose head is now the head of HSUS. These extremist AR groups are very closely aligned with one another, particularly since the late 1970's and early 1980's, and as such it makes things very difficult to specify in short descriptions how related they are. This is one of the things I tried to point out in a completely different thread, but several AR advocates continued to dismiss the connections as harmless. The activities of the Sea Shepherds in the late 70's and throughout the 1980's shows otherwise.

If you want to know who's bankrolling them, though, you can just look to Hollywood. Several very popular actors, as well as other individuals and groups, donate tons of cash to the Sea Shepherds. You can read about them here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_Shepherd_Conservation_Society#Public_relations ). They've got plenty of cash flow to pay for their equipment (summary (http://www.charitynavigator.org/index.cfm?bay=search.summary&orgid=5784)), but since their donor policy is to maintain privacy the only verification we have of donors is with press releases or statements recorded in public. However, in pretty much every segment of the entertainment industry there are people who give money to these guys.

[GreNME]

I saw that episode. First of all, Mythbusters have actually tested these infamous "personal object stopping a bullet"-myths several times. It can be done, but you need a pretty solid object.
Second, if his cute little medallion actually did stop the bullet I still call BS. A bullet with enough energy to penetrate a bullet-proof vest would knock Watson over and possibly break some ribs. You would at least see some ugly bruises on his chest, but if I remember correctly they kinda forgot to show us that.

That's because no such marks or damage existed. If there had been, Watson would have been filing papers for a lawsuit right away.

[Drudgewire]

Out of curiosity, who on this thread cares about the whales' fate?


I did. As I said in the entertainment thread about this show I'm half-convinced Whale Wars is secretly sponsored by whalers to gain support for their industry.

[Safe-Keeper]

Out of curiosity, who on this thread cares about the whales' fate? As a Norseman, I sure as heck see no reason to care about whales more than I care about other animals, birds and fish which are also hunted.

[GreNME]

As a Norseman, I sure as heck see no reason to care about whales more than I care about other animals, birds and fish which are also hunted.

Hunting to extinction tends to be frowned upon, and is the reason why nations who allow whaling (hey, the US is one of those nations) tend to get a critical reception at the activities. Japan is distinguishing itself from other nations (like Norway) who outright object to the IWC and proceed to hunt whales anyway, because they hide their whaling activities behind a thin veneer of vaguely-classified "science" and study of whales but still sell the meat commercially. The anger and criticism for Japanese whaling tends to be as much about their deception as it does their killing of the whales.

[Drudgewire]

Hunting to extinction tends to be frowned upon, and is the reason why nations who allow whaling (hey, the US is one of those nations) tend to get a critical reception at the activities. Japan is distinguishing itself from other nations (like Norway) who outright object to the IWC and proceed to hunt whales anyway, because they hide their whaling activities behind a thin veneer of vaguely-classified "science" and study of whales but still sell the meat commercially. The anger and criticism for Japanese whaling tends to be as much about their deception as it does their killing of the whales.


I prefer the whale suicide bomber (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4096586/) protest approach myself. :D

[ponderingturtle]

Hunting to extinction tends to be frowned upon, and is the reason why nations who allow whaling (hey, the US is one of those nations) tend to get a critical reception at the activities.

Conservation is for Sissies!

[GreNME]

Conservation is for Sissies!

No way, man! Teddy Roosevelt, a notable conservationist a century ago, is like a personal hero of mine and could totally beat up a grizzly bear with one hand tied behind his back!

Kidding aside, this topic goes back to things I've alluded to in other threads where conservationism and animal welfare used to belong to a more "rugged outdoorsman" type of personality and wasn't much on the radar of those in more metropolitan intellectual circles, and then after some movements in the late 1960's and early 1970's the organizations set up by those earlier types began to become populated by more leftist-anarchist groups of people and started to venture more and more into nutty activities we associate with groups like PETA, Greenpeace, and the Sea Shepherds. One of the reasons I suggested to RandFan to read The Monkey Wrench Gang earlier in the thread was to show a different outlook that some of these "monkeywrencher" groups tended to personify just 30-40 years ago.

[NewtonTrino]

I call the show 'morons at sea'. It's entertaining enough to watch them bumble around. I don't have much sympathy for either side really.

[RandFan]

Out of curiosity, who on this thread cares about the whales' fate?I do. Not that I root for either side of this mess.

[tyr_13]

The whalers being wrong doesn't make the Sea Shepards right. They should combat the market.

[GreNME]

The whalers being wrong doesn't make the Sea Shepards right. They should combat the market.

Well, that's not really as straight-forward as it sounds. As crappy as the Sea Shepherds are, the Japanese are circumventing international regulations to maintain a market that can't be affected by normal market pressure tactics (this is an instance where "can't compete with the gub'mint" applies).

But yes, I agree that the Japanese should be shamed out of advocating the activity.

[JoeyDonuts]

This is the kind of "direct-action" environmentalism that has people driving long nails into rainforest trees in order to destroy chainsaws and in some cases maim their operators.

The Sea Shepherds are in the same class as PETA, the ELF/ALF, Earth First! and the Horizon Corporation from Tom Clancy's Rainbow Six.

Hell, their founder espouses human depopulation. Were this man to ever acquire real political power, it would be frightening indeed.

[tyr_13]

Well, that's not really as straight-forward as it sounds. As crappy as the Sea Shepherds are, the Japanese are circumventing international regulations to maintain a market that can't be affected by normal market pressure tactics (this is an instance where "can't compete with the gub'mint" applies).

But yes, I agree that the Japanese should be shamed out of advocating the activity.

This is very true. Never said it was easy or straight forward though, but the correct coarse of action in my opinion.

Much better than getting your crew and the other crews killed anyway.

[RandFan]

Well, that's not really as straight-forward as it sounds. As crappy as the Sea Shepherds are, the Japanese are circumventing international regulations to maintain a market that can't be affected by normal market pressure tactics (this is an instance where "can't compete with the gub'mint" applies).

But yes, I agree that the Japanese should be shamed out of advocating the activity.Agreed.

[BobK]

Every so often someone from SS expresses satisfaction that they are having an effect by keep the whalers from hunting. Frankly, I suspect their effect is probably miniscule.

Since the SS have been doing this routine for a few years now, it would be interesting to know what effect they've had on the price of whale parts in the Japanese market.

[shuize]

I'm not advocating using live ammo against the Whale Wars crew, but the day it happens I'll probably giggle a little.


I'm no big fan of whaling, but the day one of those asshats gets tossed overboard for illegally boarding a ship on the high seas, I'll probably laugh too.

[shawmutt]

I prefer the whale suicide bomber (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4096586/) protest approach myself. :D

Just make sure you don't get rid of a carcass by blowing it up.

8Vmnq5dBF7Y

[portlandatheist]

This is the kind of "direct-action" environmentalism that has people driving long nails into rainforest trees in order to destroy chainsaws and in some cases maim their operators.

The Sea Shepherds are in the same class as PETA, the ELF/ALF, Earth First! and the Horizon Corporation from Tom Clancy's Rainbow Six.

Hell, their founder espouses human depopulation. Were this man to ever acquire real political power, it would be frightening indeed.

I totally agree. These people are criminals. For those more sympathetic to the whale's plight, I'm curious how you feel about the Inuit harvesting Bowhead whales in the arctic.

[portlandatheist]

Here is a youtube video of the whaling in Barrow. I have been in Barrow when an 80 ton Bowhead was harvested and participated in bringing the whale on the ice. I feel ambivelent about whaling but can say that spending 6 hours on the sea ice with a huge Bowhead was an amazing and unique experience.
LAqEK7K5oCQ

[JihadJane]

This is the kind of "direct-action" environmentalism that has people driving long nails into rainforest trees in order to destroy chainsaws and in some cases maim their operators.

The Sea Shepherds are in the same class as PETA, the ELF/ALF, Earth First! and the Horizon Corporation from Tom Clancy's Rainbow Six.

Hell, their founder espouses human depopulation. Were this man to ever acquire real political power, it would be frightening indeed.


What's wrong with espousing human depopulation?

Fossil fuels have allowed us to massively overshoot the carrying capacity of the Earth. It's time to start shrinking!

Good to see you espousing pacifism, though. When did you convert?


I totally agree. These people are criminals. For those more sympathetic to the whale's plight, I'm curious how you feel about the Inuit harvesting Bowhead whales in the arctic.


Destroying rain forests is irresponsible, criminal and murderous on a massive scale.

What is the relevance of Inuit whaling to industrial whaling?

[funk de fino]

What's wrong with espousing human depopulation?

Because its ignorant.

[Old Bob]

A couple of years ago my friend formed with some help from me "The Anglo-Celtic Whale Hunters Association" and we wanted to hunt a whale in Hervy Bay Queensland. Now in this state the Aborigine can hunt dugong because of tradition. Well we want the same rights as Anglo-Celtic used to hunt whale. The state Gov threatened us with $250000 fine. We offered to butcher it on the beach and give the meat away. (A ton of fun) We pointed out the racial prejudice and caused a huge black lash, more fun and we still have the harpoon,polished and sharp. The Fraser Coast Chronicle run the headlines.

[paximperium]

A couple of years ago my friend formed with some help from me "The Anglo-Celtic Whale Hunters Association" and we wanted to hunt a whale in Hervy Bay Queensland. Now in this state the Aborigine can hunt dugong because of tradition. Well we want the same rights as Anglo-Celtic used to hunt whale. The state Gov threatened us with $250000 fine. We offered to butcher it on the beach and give the meat away. (A ton of fun) We pointed out the racial prejudice and caused a huge black lash, more fun and we still have the harpoon,polished and sharp. The Fraser Coast Chronicle run the headlines.
Let me guess, you chickened out of actually doing it?

[Old Bob]

Let me guess pax you can't read between the lines. As you may not understand white Australians are discrimated against when it comes to hunting, having hand outs, land rights, credit for traditional Toyota, one payment and the tax payer picks up the tab. Free houses which are burnt or ruined and you think I want to stab a 20 ton whale in a row boat? This was the only way to slow the butcher of dugons and turtle, drag live turtle into the shade and cut meat off when hungry? This is not against all the blacks, just some with bad habits. Gun laws for whites only is that fair? you have no idea of how far a whale hunt can go.

[funk de fino]

Let me guess pax you can't read between the lines. As you may not understand white Australians are discrimated against when it comes to hunting, having hand outs, land rights, credit for traditional Toyota, one payment and the tax payer picks up the tab. Free houses which are burnt or ruined and you think I want to stab a 20 ton whale in a row boat? This was the only way to slow the butcher of dugons and turtle, drag live turtle into the shade and cut meat off when hungry? This is not against all the blacks, just some with bad habits. Gun laws for whites only is that fair? you have no idea of how far a whale hunt can go.

I think I read between the lines you are a chicken as well.

[Careyp74]

Huh? How's that work?
.

Are ships allowed to defend themselves in cases of piracy? I would hope so. In the news lately the crews aren't being left alive after the pirates take over. In the eyes of the whaling boat, the idiots charging them could be a band of pirates. They even take efforts to look like pirates.

Let's say the captain was shot, and dies. Who would be at fault?

[ponderingturtle]

Are ships allowed to defend themselves in cases of piracy? I would hope so. In the news lately the crews aren't being left alive after the pirates take over. In the eyes of the whaling boat, the idiots charging them could be a band of pirates. They even take efforts to look like pirates.

Let's say the captain was shot, and dies. Who would be at fault?

Um much modern piracy is about taking hostages, and demanding money for their return. Killing everyone wouldn't work so well with that.

[Beerina]

Concrete canyon dwellers, not content to tell people in Arizona and Montana and Alaska what they can and cannot do with their land, by right of having vaster populations, now want to tell Japan what they can do with whales. Nice.


It's all a temporary, and thus non-issue, at best, given cloning technology.


Nothing to see here folks, move along, move along.


Mammoths, mastadons, the dodo, that weird giant bird from Tasmania or whatever, neanderthals, let's get 'em resurrected peeps. What's the problem?

[ponderingturtle]

Concrete canyon dwellers, not content to tell people in Arizona and Montana and Alaska what they can and cannot do with their land, by right of having vaster populations, now want to tell Japan what they can do with whales. Nice.

Hey we are already telling Africans what to do with their Elephants and Rinos.

[portlandatheist]

Destroying rain forests is irresponsible, criminal and murderous on a massive scale.

What is the relevance of Inuit whaling to industrial whaling?
There is no relevance but these criminals oppose the Inuit as well. What is the relevance of rain forests to whaling?

[GreNME]

I totally agree. These people are criminals. For those more sympathetic to the whale's plight, I'm curious how you feel about the Inuit harvesting Bowhead whales in the arctic.

I have no problem with hunting, especially not the subsistence hunting that the Inuit engage in (the food makes up a significant part of their food stores, unlike Japanese whaling). There are some criticisms that can be made regarding the species they're using as food, but it would be difficult to argue that the extremely low numbers they kill have a significant impact on the genetic diversity of the bowhead whale species (again, unlike the Japanese whaling).

Here is a youtube video of the whaling in Barrow. I have been in Barrow when an 80 ton Bowhead was harvested and participated in bringing the whale on the ice. I feel ambivelent about whaling but can say that spending 6 hours on the sea ice with a huge Bowhead was an amazing and unique experience.
LAqEK7K5oCQ

I'm not impressed with the video, which seems to play the "indigenous spiritualism" card a bit thick throughout. However, as I said, I don't have a problem with hunting, particularly subsistence hunting like they do.

[GreNME]

There is no relevance but these criminals oppose the Inuit as well. What is the relevance of rain forests to whaling?

These groups oppose the Inuit hunting for two reasons, one of which has a small bit of validity. The first (and senseless) reason is the demand that any and all whaling stop no matter what. The second is that there are some Inuit towns that have begun using more industrialized means to kill more whales, sometimes more than is necessary, and considering the low quotas and the low general numbers of bowhead whales there would be a cause for concern if this practice were adopted more widely.

[Xulld]

I try to see it from all sides.

In order to do that you really have to lay out all the facts. Whales are intelligent, they communicate, and if you take that single factor into account it would seem to reason that they are more intelligent then any other mammal other then humans.

The international law allows a loophole for these industries to continue despite a ban on whaling, this is not something the average person would agree is ok to do. Most people agree that laws are made for a reason and that reason is what important. The reason is to protect whales from extinction, the loop hole invalidates the law and the reason for the law. Law is an agreement and the agreement is not being met by all parties due to the loophole.

So we have a few facts here now lets look at the situation from the various parties perspectives.

-The industry wants to make money, that is its only goal.
-The activists want to save whales.
-The whales want to live in peace.

Lets take a moment to use our imaginations in order to understand the beings that have the most at risk.

Pretend you are an intelligent species living on a planet with a technologically advanced race of beings, where a minority of those technologically advanced beings hunt your people for money, a representational resource.

Then there are activists which do not have the support of the majority of the people, but they are trying to keep your people from being killed. They try to do so with little or no violence, and risk there own lives in the attempt.

How would you see the behavior of the activists in this light?

[quarky]

There is much to be learned about whales. It would be nice to retain healthy populations of them. To some, one beast is as relevant as another. To me, a mammal with a brain 9 times the size of mine is more interesting. We know almost nothing about wild whales, except how to hunt them and process them.

I wish we hadn't killed off all the stellar sea cows. If nothing else, they should have been maintained as a wonderful commodity. Manatees, too, are too valuable to decimate. Even as a food source, we'd be wise to protect them and get their numbers up to a healthy level.

[Damien Evans]

Against a soft skin ship when you don't know that there isn't an engineer working in that area? Not really an option for non leathal.


You're left with a ship that can't get underway under its own power and has to have an ocean tug drag it back to the nearest port.



Collisions generaly didn't cause to many problems during the cod wars. Of course crews on both sides knew what they were doing there.



Nothing the whaling fleet is doing is illegal.



No dumping waste is illegal. Closer to protesting against exporting veal calves useing those kind of methods. Of course that happened:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/veal-protests-could-overwhelm-ports-1571530.html

You mean other than commercial whaling.

[Damien Evans]

Concrete canyon dwellers, not content to tell people in Arizona and Montana and Alaska what they can and cannot do with their land, by right of having vaster populations, now want to tell Japan what they can do with whales. Nice.


It's all a temporary, and thus non-issue, at best, given cloning technology.


Nothing to see here folks, move along, move along.


Mammoths, mastadons, the dodo, that weird giant bird from Tasmania or whatever, neanderthals, let's get 'em resurrected peeps. What's the problem?

http://xs234.xs.to/xs234/08490/facepalm_implied2944.jpg

[aggle-rithm]

What's wrong with espousing human depopulation?


You're not volunteering, are you?

[portlandatheist]

There is much to be learned about whales. It would be nice to retain healthy populations of them. To some, one beast is as relevant as another. To me, a mammal with a brain 9 times the size of mine is more interesting. We know almost nothing about wild whales, except how to hunt them and process them.

I wish we hadn't killed off all the stellar sea cows. If nothing else, they should have been maintained as a wonderful commodity. Manatees, too, are too valuable to decimate. Even as a food source, we'd be wise to protect them and get their numbers up to a healthy level.
Much of the knowledge we now have about the Bowhead whale is from the people who have hunted them and developed a culture around them.

[portlandatheist]

I'm not impressed with the video, which seems to play the "indigenous spiritualism" card a bit thick throughout. However, as I said, I don't have a problem with hunting, particularly subsistence hunting like they do.
Yeah, the "indigenous spiritualism" is laid on very quick but having said that, the community that hunts these whales are generally very poor and need the subsistence food sources, and have a very strong cultural identity with whaling.

[portlandatheist]

How would you see the behavior of the activists in this light?
I suppose if I were a whale, I would probably be much more concerned about my fellow whales than humans. If my fellow whales were engaged in deplorable and criminal behavior towards each other in order to protect these humans, I would probably be disgusted with their behavior.

[Xulld]

I think its wrong to kill for profit what is possibly the only other intelligent species in the universe. (lets include dolphin)

Communication to me makes this true, without another example this would make any kind of animal that have evolved sophisticated means of communication.

I think it would be very telling of the lack of intelligence and morality of mankind to hunt to extinction any other peaceful intelligent species.

I think wars over oil are insignificant compared to the extinction of an peaceful intelligent species, personally to avoid having all of humanity tainted by such an act, a real war is not too much.

I mean what makes humans so special. If its not just that the law makers who give out rights are human, then we have to assume certain characteristics of a species are what make rights, right to give.

If the level of intelligence which allows communication is not enough for basic rights to life then I do not know what is . . .

[nescafe]

Stupid. The "whale savers" seem to be zealots who don't know enough about sailing not to hurt themselves. I saw an episode where the crew seemed inept, and tried to drop a boat in choppy water, and capsized the thing. It would have been funny if they hadn't looked like a bunch of college kids with too much time on their hands.
Professional mariners hate the show. (http://gcaptain.com/forum/professional-mariner-forum/566-animal-planet-whale-wars.html)
It is only a matter of time before they kill themselves with their amateur seamanship.

[GreNME]

Yeah, the "indigenous spiritualism" is laid on very quick but having said that, the community that hunts these whales are generally very poor and need the subsistence food sources, and have a very strong cultural identity with whaling.

I know that they subsist on it, and as I said earlier I don't really have a problem with hunting in general. It's not the fact that whaling involves hunting an animal that necessarily bothers me.

However, Japan claims to have a strong cultural identity with whaling as well, and that's not good enough for me there either. Cultural identity isn't a reasonable enough justification for engaging in something that threatens sustainability. For the Inuit, at their current levels their whale hunts can't be reasonably argued to have a possible effect on the sustainability of the bowhead whale population. Japan, on the other hand, tends to regularly increase their quotas on the number of whales they can hunt and they have repeatedly over the last decade included small numbers of endangered species in their hunts (humpbacks and fin whales). The Inuit aren't the only groups who whale hunt for subsistence (I believe Iceland has some exceptions made for them as well), but considering that whale meat consumption has for years declined steadily in Japan and the fact that Japan is being blatantly deceitful in its activities, they're hardly similar except that in the most general sense that some whales are being hunted.

[theprestige]

I try to see it from all sides....
Try harder; all you're doing here is anthropomorphizing the whales' "side", so you can make sense of their point of view in human terms.

Whales are intelligent, they communicate, and if you take that single factor into account it would seem to reason that they are more intelligent then any other mammal other then humans.

Crows are intelligent, they communicate.
Dogs are intelligent, they communicate.
Horses are intelligent, they communicate.
Bumblebees are intelligent, they communicate.
Global Hawk drones are intelligent, they communicate (they can even file their own flight plans with the FAA).

What if we take these factors into account as well?

-The industry wants to make money, that is its only goal.

Sounds about right to me.

-The activists want to save whales.

Sounds just about dead wrong to me. From what I can see, these particular activists are common garden-variety confrontation junkies who have found a subculture (people who really do want to save whales) that will give them honor and respect for their shenanigans.

Give me a boat, a crew, and a season to prepare, and I could do more to disrupt the Japanese whaling operations in a single voyage than these chumps have ever done or will ever do.

-The whales want to live in peace.

I don't think anybody really knows if other creatures have anything analagous to human concepts like "want", "live", and "peace". Unless you've recently made some psychic or scientific breakthrough in non-human consciousness, I don't think you're in any position to tell us what whales want--or even if they "want" at all, the way we understand it.

Lets take a moment to use our imaginations in order to understand the beings that have the most at risk.
I don't think imagining that whales think and feel like humans is going to help us understand them. I also don't think it's very imaginative: You're trying to imagine a different point of view, and you only get as far as imagining it's the same as your own point of view?

Pretend you are an intelligent species living on a planet with a technologically advanced race of beings, where a minority of those technologically advanced beings hunt your people for money, a representational resource.

Then there are activists which do not have the support of the majority of the people, but they are trying to keep your people from being killed. They try to do so with little or no violence, and risk there own lives in the attempt.

How would you see the behavior of the activists in this light?

Honestly? I would see the behavior of the activists as frustratingly incompetent, wasteful, and counter-productive.

As a human who doesn't think like a whale, I have the luxury of being able to point and laugh at the jackassery of these activists.

As a whale who thinks like a human being, I'd be royally pissed off at how useless these activists are, and how much time and effort they waste in failing to help me at all.

[AWPrime]

Mammoths, mastadons, the dodo, that weird giant bird from Tasmania or whatever, neanderthals, let's get 'em resurrected peeps. What's the problem?
http://images.icanhascheezburger.com/completestore/2009/3/15/128816193246706286.jpg

[RandFan]

I mean what makes humans so special.Your question is incomplete . Special from what perspective? The only perspective in the known universe capabable of such a judgement that I know of is a human one. The only morality that would take special consideration is a human constructed one.

As a species we do act as if we are special. We protect the weak and provide for welfare. We wouldn't do that if we had no basis to think we were special.

We are also capable of thinking whales special and it's perfectly appropriate to argue that we ought to think of whales as special. I think they are.

Too big to fly, dodo ugly so dodo must die,
Doggo with fear on its side, can't change, can't change the tide.
Dog baiter, agitator, asking questions, says he wants to know why.
Ain't no reason that money can't buy.
Mink he pretty so mink he must die, must die, must die. --Genesis

[quarky]

Other than some Inuit rights and history, there is very little to be gained in hunting whales.
Certainly the Japanese, Norwegians, and Icelanders won't suffer terribly for lack of whale meat.

back in the old days, whales were too valuable, as corpses, to ignore.
Now, our technology, and our numbers are such that we could easily remove them from the equation. Many here seem fine with that. I find it short-sighted; myopic, and cruel to lump all our conquered beasts into the same category.

This issue is a test-drive of our collective arrogance in regards to encountering alien, intelligent life.

Cetaceans are it. Or they should sure as hell qualify. Why should we be ok about eliminating them, before we have the smarts to learn about their brains and lives?
Because the starving Japanese miss whale meat, and can't be happy without it?

hell, let's finish eating all the gorillas, while we're at it.
Neither whales nor gorillas have ever invented a computer, or held a productive job.
So let them go the way of the dodo bird, and let's hope the tree-huggers will be locked up or shot for their sentimentality.

No.

You that feel this way are red-neck retards, and deserve to be put to death; preferably crushed to death by tons of whale blubber, as its being lowered onto a dock from a crane.

Humans suck ass sometimes, especially the smug and arrogant ones that know nothing except hate and their innate superiority.

Crown of creation, my ass.
We wouldn't recognize a superior being, or an equal one, if it beached itself in our living room.
This macho attitude about not needing to protect whales, or afford them rights of any sort, is an echo of the attitude that saw non-caucasions as commodities to exploit; sub-humans. Yet instead of seeing yourselves as inbred retards, there is this smugness...as if you have a clue about anything; as if you are educated and unsentimental science people. And you'd be happy to have your children live in a world of corn, cows, and hi-ways. I feel strongly about this matter because of studying the famous 3 pound universe and swimming with wild creatures that have a much larger, poorly understood brain.

I wash my hands of it.

[RandFan]

Other than some Inuit rights and history, there is very little to be gained in hunting whales.Yeah, I think most of here agree.

Many here seem fine with that. Perhaps I'm missing something but it seemed to me that most here objected to the hunting of whales.

Crown of creation, my ass.
We wouldn't recognize a superior being, or an equal one, if it beached itself in our living room.
This macho attitude about not needing to protect whales, or afford them rights of any sort, is an echo of the attitude that saw non-caucasions as commodities to exploit; sub-humans. Yet instead of seeing yourselves as inbred retards, there is this smugness...as if you have a clue about anything; as if you are educated and unsentimental science people. And you'd be happy to have your children live in a world of corn, cows, and hi-ways. I feel strongly about this matter because of studying the famous 3 pound universe and swimming with wild creatures that have a much larger, poorly understood brain. Who is it that has this attitude. Could you point me to a poster that thinks this?

Just because most of us think the sea Shepperd idiots are, well, idiots doesn't mean that we can't sincerely care about whales. Who are these sub-human inbreds?

[esquel]

All that Whale Wars does for me is make me overindulge in Tums. The Japanese whaling fleet is exploiting a loophole in international law to kill whales, which I don't like. But the crew of the Steve Irwin gives me the pip. None of them have enough experience or common sense to captain a rowboat, let alone sail in Antarctic waters and try to harass the whalers. The senior crew is worse than the idealistic kids they mostly have as swabbies; they should know better, but they'd rather play to the cameras, nevermind conducting their operations in a safe and seaman like manner.

[JoeyDonuts]

Good to see you espousing pacifism, though. When did you convert?

The kind of pacifism I endorse is brought about by eliminating one enemy combatant at a time.

[/derail]

ETA: Out of curiousity, does anyone have any figures on how much of the harvested whales are actually put to use as sustenance or for manufacturing? I was under the impression that products made from whale blubber aren't nearly as prominent as they used to be.

On a personal note, I'm a hunter myself. One thing that means as I understand it is to have a respect for your quarry. I don't kill for trophies, I kill for meat. I detest the idea of hunting a certain animal to extinction, as was almost done with the American Bison back in the day. For me, being a hunter means accepting - almost symbolically - a place in the natural order/food chain if you will. This also means treading lightly and doing my very best to leave a minimal impact on their habitat. I don't think the Japanese are doing this by their whaling practices, and they need to be stopped.

But this television program is glorifying a delusional and dangerous individual who is going to get people killed at sea. A man who seems to have no respect for the ocean whatsoever, who doesn't even come close to deserving the title of "skipper."

If the Sea Shepherds shadowed the whaling vessels and exposed their practices and were able to prove that they were harvesting whales to the brink of extinction without using reprehensible, dangerous vigilantism, I'd be shouting his praises from the rooftops.

As it stands, he's a lunatic, and a fraud (by way of the bulletproof vest stunt) who does not need to have a crew operating under him.

But as long as his coffers are being filled by bleeding-heart "proxy activists" who can't let their support of eco-terrorists be known publicly, (bit of speculation on my part) he's going to continue at it until a real tragedy occurs.

[GreNME]

The kind of pacifism I endorse is brought about by eliminating one enemy combatant at a time.

That is such a badass line. Totally saving it for later.

[JoeyDonuts]

That is such a badass line. Totally saving it for later.

Well, I am an irrational, testosterone-fueled, gun-crazed, chest-beating conspiracy debunker and staunch supporter of the oppressive military-industrial complex. :D

I invoke Poe.

[alfaniner]

OK, I guess my own thread title already existing for months simply called "Whale Wars" in the TV section was too bland to generate much discussion. Perhaps I should have used a controversial word in the title, like "Stupid".

[portlandatheist]

I know that they subsist on it, and as I said earlier I don't really have a problem with hunting in general. It's not the fact that whaling involves hunting an animal that necessarily bothers me.

However, Japan claims to have a strong cultural identity with whaling as well, and that's not good enough for me there either. Cultural identity isn't a reasonable enough justification for engaging in something that threatens sustainability. For the Inuit, at their current levels their whale hunts can't be reasonably argued to have a possible effect on the sustainability of the bowhead whale population. Japan, on the other hand, tends to regularly increase their quotas on the number of whales they can hunt and they have repeatedly over the last decade included small numbers of endangered species in their hunts (humpbacks and fin whales). The Inuit aren't the only groups who whale hunt for subsistence (I believe Iceland has some exceptions made for them as well), but considering that whale meat consumption has for years declined steadily in Japan and the fact that Japan is being blatantly deceitful in its activities, they're hardly similar except that in the most general sense that some whales are being hunted.

Yeah, I think we are on the same page here. If I recall correctly from my experience in Alaska, it is absolutely forbidden for anybody to sell whale meat. What the Inuit are doing is in stark contrast to the Japanese and Norwegians and I don't agree with what they are doing. THE only reason Barrow exists at all as a city, is because of the whaling. I believe the population of Barrow was larger than it is now when it was first discovered by the west. The "cultural heritage" has some but very limited validity for these modern whalers whereas whaling is the focal point of the Inuit culture and was a necessary part of their survival for many years. Even within that context, I would oppose any whaling that threatened the welfare of the Bowhead population and only support a limited and sustainable harvest. Barrow recently lost a substantial subsidy of food being shipped up there and it has become much more expensive to buy groceries. In these modern times, one has to wonder if the entire notion of having a city at 72 degrees north without road access makes much sense and eventually I see the population dwindling.

[quarky]

Yeah, I think most of here agree.

Perhaps I'm missing something but it seemed to me that most here objected to the hunting of whales.

Who is it that has this attitude. Could you point me to a poster that thinks this?

Just because most of us think the sea Shepperd idiots are, well, idiots doesn't mean that we can't sincerely care about whales. Who are these sub-human inbreds?

I forget.

I'm just venting.

[rjh01]

OK, I guess my own thread title already existing for months simply called "Whale Wars" in the TV section was too bland to generate much discussion. Perhaps I should have used a controversial word in the title, like "Stupid".

In that case I just gave this thread a tag. One you gave your thread.

[RandFan]

I forget.

I'm just venting.Cool.

[alfaniner]

In that case I just gave this thread a tag. One you gave your thread.

"potrzebie"?

:)

[Old Bob]

Whales are like cattle and no graizer likes to see the cattle going to slaughter, but whale meat fed England during the 2nd WW. Pigs can be as smart as a dog,would you eat your dog? I think while we have plenty leave the whales alone. Asians eat dogs Japs eat whale, not nice.

[bjornart]

Let's get some facts straight, and for the sake of fueling controversy I'm not going to quote individuals here, so feel free to jump in with: "I didn't say that."


Commercial whaling is not illegal
Whales are not an intelligent species
Current commercial whaling is probably not a threat to any species long term survival
There are intelligent people both supporting and opposing whaling, for various intelligent reasons, there are also stupid people supporting and opposing whaling, for stupid reasons


1. The international whaling commission, an entirely voluntary body, set up to "provide for the proper conservation of whale stocks and thus make possible the orderly development of the whaling industry", declared a moratorium on commercial whaling in 1986. Norway, Peru, Japan and the Soviet Union, objected, since the IWC by this time had become dominated by nations opposed to whaling on whales-are-special grounds, and the moratorium wasn't based on scientific advice. Japan gave into US pressure and is hunting for "science". Norway never retracted the objection and resumed whaling in 1993, quite legally.

2. Referring to all whales as "a species" disqualifies you from any discussion. Using intelligence as an argument requires you to either a) be a vegetarian or at least only eat animals with no brain, b) supply proof of the intellect of a minke whale being more intelligent that a pig, or c) oppose on the grounds of the _method_ of killing whales.

3. There are no internationally agreed upon quotas, because the only body presumably qualified to produce them is deadlocked by unscientific whaling - anti-whaling politics.

4. Try to show yourself as intelligent. If your basis for supporting/opposing whaling is a childhood infatuation with/hatred of Flipper, please shut the heck up.

[bjornart]

Whales are like cattle and no graizer likes to see the cattle going to slaughter, but whale meat fed England during the 2nd WW. Pigs can be as smart as a dog,would you eat your dog? I think while we have plenty leave the whales alone. Asians eat dogs Japs eat whale, not nice.

But eating pigs is okay? Please clarify your argument here, you seem to be rambling.

[Old Bob]

But eating pigs is okay? Please clarify your argument here, you seem to be rambling.

Point I was trying to make is whales are no more important than other animals. But I would ruther see them alive while we have other food. Sorry about the ramble (Vodka)

[Drudgewire]

But eating pigs is okay? Please clarify your argument here, you seem to be rambling.


Mmmmm, whale chops. :drool:

[quarky]

Let's get some facts straight, and for the sake of fueling controversy I'm not going to quote individuals here, so feel free to jump in with: "I didn't say that."


Commercial whaling is not illegal
Whales are not an intelligent species
Current commercial whaling is probably not a threat to any species long term survival
There are intelligent people both supporting and opposing whaling, for various intelligent reasons, there are also stupid people supporting and opposing whaling, for stupid reasons


1. The international whaling commission, an entirely voluntary body, set up to "provide for the proper conservation of whale stocks and thus make possible the orderly development of the whaling industry", declared a moratorium on commercial whaling in 1986. Norway, Peru, Japan and the Soviet Union, objected, since the IWC by this time had become dominated by nations opposed to whaling on whales-are-special grounds, and the moratorium wasn't based on scientific advice. Japan gave into US pressure and is hunting for "science". Norway never retracted the objection and resumed whaling in 1993, quite legally.

2. Referring to all whales as "a species" disqualifies you from any discussion. Using intelligence as an argument requires you to either a) be a vegetarian or at least only eat animals with no brain, b) supply proof of the intellect of a minke whale being more intelligent that a pig, or c) oppose on the grounds of the _method_ of killing whales.

3. There are no internationally agreed upon quotas, because the only body presumably qualified to produce them is deadlocked by unscientific whaling - anti-whaling politics.

4. Try to show yourself as intelligent. If your basis for supporting/opposing whaling is a childhood infatuation with/hatred of Flipper, please shut the heck up.



whales aren't intelligent? by what standard? an S.A.T. test?

They are in a special category. The big brain should be enough of a tip-off to at least try to learn more about them. we know almost nothing about whales; more about dolphins. testing dolphin smarts is a hilarious endeavor. they get bored with how slow we are. there's good reason to suspect bigger whales of being way intelligent. as we get smarter, so do our test subjects.

[theprestige]

whales aren't intelligent? by what standard? an S.A.T. test?

They are in a special category. The big brain should be enough of a tip-off to at least try to learn more about them. we know almost nothing about whales; more about dolphins. testing dolphin smarts is a hilarious endeavor. they get bored with how slow we are. there's good reason to suspect bigger whales of being way intelligent. as we get smarter, so do our test subjects.
I can see it now: Aliens come to earth, enter a parking orbit, and start looking for intelligent species to interact with. On the one tentacle, there's these bipedal land dwellers that build skyscrapers and jumbo jets. On the other tentacle, there's these flippered water creatures that compose audio sequences with semantic content. The aliens are totally stumped, trying to figure out which species is the more intelligent.

ETA: I mean, if the aliens are artistic, whalesongs might captivate them in a way that the Large Hadron Collider never will, and humans would be totally screwed in the galactic marketplace.

[NoZed Avenger]

I can see it now: Aliens come to earth, enter a parking orbit, and start looking for intelligent species to interact with. On the one tentacle, there's these bipedal land dwellers that build skyscrapers and jumbo jets. On the other tentacle, there's these flippered water creatures that compose audio sequences with semantic content. The aliens are totally stumped, trying to figure out which species is the more intelligent.

ETA: I mean, if the aliens are artistic, whalesongs might captivate them in a way that the Large Hadron Collider never will, and humans would be totally screwed in the galactic marketplace.

"Man always considered himself smarter than dolphins because of all the great things he had accomplished; the wheel, New York City, that sort of thing, while all the dolphins did was muck about in the water having a good time. Conversely, dolphins considered themselves superior for exactly the same reasons."
- Douglas Adams

[Phil]

"Man always considered himself smarter than dolphins because of all the great things he had accomplished; the wheel, New York City, that sort of thing, while all the dolphins did was muck about in the water having a good time. Conversely, dolphins considered themselves superior for exactly the same reasons."
- Douglas Adams

Phil's favorite pastime: Mucking about in the water having a good time.

Who's the most intelligent species now?

[NoZed Avenger]

Phil's favorite pastime: Mucking about in the water having a good time.

Who's the most intelligent species now?


Curse you, cross-specieist! NOw the Dolphins will have no choice but to build sea-tanks and roll out onto the beaches, spreading fire and destruction in waves of unstoppable, yet frolicky, death. Our technology will be no match for their warcrafts' ability to jump thorugh hoops and do backflips.

[tyr_13]

I can see it now: Aliens come to earth, enter a parking orbit, and start looking for intelligent species to interact with. On the one tentacle, there's these bipedal land dwellers that build skyscrapers and jumbo jets. On the other tentacle, there's these flippered water creatures that compose audio sequences with semantic content. The aliens are totally stumped, trying to figure out which species is the more intelligent.

ETA: I mean, if the aliens are artistic, whalesongs might captivate them in a way that the Large Hadron Collider never will, and humans would be totally screwed in the galactic marketplace.

I've always considered this argument to be exceedingly silly. On face value, we think we are better than other animals because we're biased. Then when you think about it, we're more intelligent than other species because we can destroy them, or save them, or both. No other animals have been into space, and only microbes have a wider range than we do. Not to derail this thread, but yes, we are more intelligent than all the other animals that we know of.

Yes whales sing, and maybe even compose. They dance. How about all the forms of expression and art that they don't do that humans do?

I'm sure people will want to list reasons that humans are stupid, likely stuff to do with pop culture or war. However, the simple fact that we are able to recognize and list these things is proof that we are more intelligent than other animals on Earth (again, that we know of).

(/derail)

[Phrost]

Re: the OP - I'm in the weird position of more or less agreeing with their cause, but absolutely hating everyone on that show and hoping they get stranded on an iceberg, forced to eat whale meat to survive.

[fuelair]

Hey RandFan, if you haven't yet read it I strongly recommend taking a look at the book The Monkey Wrench Gang (http://www.amazon.com/Monkey-Wrench-Gang-Edward-Abbey/dp/094268818X) by Edward Abbey. It's one of the books that inspired a lot of the eco-activist organizational activities since the middle or end of the 1970's, and takes a more interesting look at the issue through fictional characterizations mixed with some real eco-activist concerns of the time. The characters themselves aren't exactly representative of the typical politics of the people you'd find in such groups today (which now tends toward left-leaning-anarchism), but the book itself still tends to be a seminal work to the likes of the Earth First(!) and Earth Liberation Front crowds (though these were the same people who would heckle Abbey 10-12 years later when he spoke publicly).

Or, as it was called at the time, Ecotage.:)

[RandFan]

Re: the OP - I'm in the weird position of more or less agreeing with their cause, but absolutely hating everyone on that show and hoping they get stranded on an iceberg, forced to eat whale meat to survive.:)

Exactly my feeling. I kept wondering what was wrong with me. I'd like some UN ship to show up and impound the Japenese vessel and fine them heavily but I also wanted the sea shepards to start taking on significant amounts of water.

Guess I'm not alone.

[quarky]

Judging intelligence is a can of worms. Its a hard thing to define objectively. Humans have a horse in the race, and our tests are weighted with confirmation bias. Fortunately, we are getting smarter, and as we do, everything else becomes a bit more amazing. When I was in high-school, in the 60's, and a biology student, the thinking was that we had pretty much discovered all the species on the planet.

The exciting implication, to me, concerning cetacean societies, is that they co-generate a lot of their shared perceptions, by way of sophisticated phonation and hearing devices.
They share the coziness of a world of sound; most of it of their own making.

We do something similar in our social groupings. We co-generate an artificial perceptual reality.

If some mutagen caused certain dolphins to retain fingers on their flippers; perhaps the anti-thalidimide, and they were suddenly able to manipulate objects with more dexterity, in our minds, that would qualify as a serious reason to study, or at least quit killing these fascinating non-humans.

I feel similarly toward the super-colonies of certain ants; how they function as a single organism with incredible feedback systems.

Ants aren't in as much trouble as whales, and they're a lot easier to study.

I'm biased about cetaceans from interactions with them.
These encounters caused the collapse of my innate anthropomorphic chauvanism, which has since extended into considering all manner of non-human, intelligent life.

[George152]

:)

Exactly my feeling. I kept wondering what was wrong with me. I'd like some UN ship to show up and impound the Japenese vessel and fine them heavily but I also wanted the sea shepards to start taking on significant amounts of water.

Guess I'm not alone.

What worries me about the actions of the Sea Shepherd is that they are fanatics and one day are going to go further than legitimate protest and actually damage vessels (whether the whalers or their own) in the Antarctic.
There are going to be a lot of dead people and the survivors a long way away from any hope of early rescue.

There -is- the probability of a captain invoking the Piracy Act when the legal freedom of movement of his ship on the high sea upon its lawful occasions has those freedoms curtailed by unlawful acts.
Look up the numbers of ships the Japanese Navy could have in the Antarctic to protect the whalers from further harrassment

[GreNME]

Yes whales sing, and maybe even compose. They dance. How about all the forms of expression and art that they don't do that humans do?

Actually, we know very little of what whales do on their own time, so it's not like we can say definitively what they do. This doesn't mean I think they're smarter than us, but they could very well be smarter than we know of at this point. We often mistake affinity with intelligence (for example, dogs have affinity and often have intelligence, but not always).

[RandFan]

Actually, we know very little of what whales do on their own time, so it's not like we can say definitively what they do. This doesn't mean I think they're smarter than us, but they could very well be smarter than we know of at this point. We often mistake affinity with intelligence (for example, dogs have affinity and often have intelligence, but not always).There is some data, if I remember correctly, that would indicate that species inteligence is tied to their ability to use the inteligence. It's not exact but animals without the ability to construct dwellings are unlikley to have the inteligence to construct dwellings. Evolution isn't known for filling in niches that don't exist, it does happen though.

Again, this is my recolection from Dawkins I think. I could be wrong. :)

[GreNME]

Yeah, intelligence measures are really best utilized by measuring how the animal deals with its environment. Given the limited amount of study following the whales in their environment, we have limited knowledge of their skills in dealing with the environment (as well as different degrees of knowledge per different whale type). Much of our modern understanding of animal intelligence has come over the last 50-60 years, and that primarily deals with land animals and birds. Our understanding of the ocean is extremely limited, not as bad as some hyperbole you may hear from some advocates that claim it's currently as mysterious to us as outer space or Mars, but there are certainly loads of information we're just not all that sure of about the ocean because it's difficult to study a great deal of it.

[ponderingturtle]

No other animals have been into space

First animal in space, that was Lika the dog on sputnik 2. Man was a bit latter.

[tyr_13]

First animal in space, that was Lika the dog on sputnik 2. Man was a bit latter.

Yeah, on that rocket that Lika built....piloted...design...

[Leif Roar]

My beef with this show is that I don't like that the Japanese are thumbing their noses at international prohibitions, using a loop hole and claiming to be killing so many whales for scientific research when we all know that is likely bogus.

It's a bit more murcky than that, really. Yes, Japan's "scientific whaling" is more whaling than it's scientific, and they are exploiting a loophole, but Japan is not entirely to blame for that situation.

The timeline goes something like this:

In 1982, the IWC instituted a temporary moratorium on commercial whaling, effective from 1986, awaiting the completion of a revised management procedure for commercial whaling. Norway submitted a formal objection to the decision, believing that the NMP ("New management procedure") which had recently been adopted was sufficient to prevent over-exploitation.

In 1986 the moratorium went into effect. Norway ceased whaling, but ran a small scientific program (I don't know the numbers on top of my head, but a handful of whales each year). Japan ceased commercial whaling, but kept a fairly large scientific program running -- the total catch was reduced from around 1800 whales to 2-300.

In 1994, the IWC's Scientific Committe submitted the finished RMP to the IWC's assembly, unanimously recommending its adoption. The IWC assembly has, since then, failed to adopt it, basically filibustering the lifting of the moratorium. Also in 1994, Norway resumed its commercial whaling, adhering to the RMP and Japan ramped up its scientific program to about 450 whales each year.

And there you pretty much have it, with the excepmtion of Iceland leaving and rejoining the IWC and some discussions over substistence hunting, the IWC has been at logger-heads since then: the RMP has been completed, but the assembly refuses to adopt it as that would remove the temporary moratorium.

Can Japan really be blamed for exploiting a loophole to avoid a moratorium that by all rights should have been lifted fifteen years ago?

[ponderingturtle]

Yeah, on that rocket that Lika built....piloted...design...

All fear the Russian super intelligent mutant dogs. Ein from Cowboy Bebop was her great12 grand daughter after all.

[theprestige]

Novelist C.J. Cherryh proposed, in her novel 40,000 in Gehenna, that intelligence is closely related to--and perhaps best measured by--adaptability. Of course all organisms respond to stimuli, and many organisms can be trained to adapt to new scenarios.

But the extent to which an organism can adapt to a changing world that presents a constant stream of new and unfamiliar situations (many of which the organism is not evolutionarily optimized for) may go a long way towards indicating just how "smart" that organism really is.

By such a measure, modern computers, precision-engineered for specific tasks, aren't much smarter than an abacus.

By such a measure, if whales are so smart, why is it that the ludicrously incompetent Sea Shepherds are actually more successful at disrupting Japanese whaling operations than the whales themselves? All these years of supposedly intelligent communication amongst themselves, and whales still haven't figured out the simple adaptation of "not getting caught by a whaling boat". I'm serious, here: If whales are so intelligent, why do they need the Sea Shepherds at all? I guarantee you that in the next three or four years, we'll see the Sea Shepherds adapt to the Japanese fleet a lot faster than the whales do.

(And of course by this measure, the Japanese whalers are much more intelligent than the Sea Shepherds, since their rate of adaptation is much quicker and more successful.)

[ponderingturtle]

Novelist C.J. Cherryh proposed, in her novel 40,000 in Gehenna, that intelligence is closely related to--and perhaps best measured by--adaptability. Of course all organisms respond to stimuli, and many organisms can be trained to adapt to new scenarios.


So rats and cockroaches are smarter than dogs and most people.

This the the problem, you define inteligence in a way that is totaly at odds with what people think of then they think of inteligence. That tends to be abstract reasoning skills.

[tyr_13]

All fear the Russian super intelligent mutant dogs. Ein from Cowboy Bebop was her great12 grand daughter after all.

On the internet, no one knows that you're really a dog.

[Shrike]

So, if I read everything here correctly, there really is no 'law' as such?
Cause I was watching for the first time yesterday (have always avoided it, can't stand hippies :)). In this episode, they kept following the Nisshi Maru [sp?], and radioing that the Japanese were breaking the law etc.
That they themselves were sailing much to close, was of course all part of the peaceful proces...
God, what a bunch of wankers, unbelievable. And yes, one white guy had dreadlocks (this for me is an automatic signal...)

[theprestige]

So rats and cockroaches are smarter than dogs and most people.

This the the problem, you define inteligence in a way that is totaly at odds with what people think of then they think of inteligence. That tends to be abstract reasoning skills.
First, "what people think of when they think of intelligence" doesn't strike me as a very robust method of defining, identifying, and measuring intelligence. Second, abstract reasoning skills appear to be a major factor in one's success at adapting to unfamiliar situations.

Especially situations for which the organism is not already evolutionarily optimized, which was something else I mentioned. Are rats and cockroaches smarter than dogs and humans? Maybe they are. Or maybe they're enormously successful at sticking to scenarios for which they are evolutionarily optimized.

I don't see cockroaches really adapting to new and unfamiliar scenarios outside their evolutionary "comfort zone", any more than whales seem to have adapted to whalers. I see cockroaches doing extremely well in any situation that plays to their particular strengths, and failing miserably any time the exterminator shows up.

Show me a cockroach that can reason its way abstractly to a solution to the exterminator problem, and I'll show you a organism that is worth measuring on the adaptability-intelligence axis.

Besides, abstract reasoning by itself isn't really all that smart, if it can't adapt to new situations and solve new problems. It looks like the vast majority of human beings are equipped with incredible abstract reasoning powers, and yet a lot of humans still get stumped by even relatively simple problems (e.g., the Sea Shepherds).

Any organism can be successful, without any kind of reasoning powers at all, in situations that play to its evolutionary strength. It's not interesting to measure the intelligence of fish by their ability to breathe under water. On the other hand, it is interesting to measure the intelligence of fish by their ability abstractly reason their way to a method for breathing on dry land. And it would be equally interesting to measure the intelligence of a whale by measuring its ability to abstractly reason its way to not getting caught by a Japanese whaler.

[Leif Roar]

So, if I read everything here correctly, there really is no 'law' as such?

Not as such, no. Whaling is regulated through the IWC, an international treaty organisation with voluntary membership -- similar to GATT or NATO. The member nations agrees to the IWC charter and agrees to abide by the IWC's decisions, but it is all based on mutual benefit and a member might at any time decide to leave the treaty.

[ponderingturtle]

First, "what people think of when they think of intelligence" doesn't strike me as a very robust method of defining, identifying, and measuring intelligence. Second, abstract reasoning skills appear to be a major factor in one's success at adapting to unfamiliar situations.

How can you say that? The ability to adapt is not simply inteligence, no matter how adaptive somethings behavior is, there are plenty of times it can not overcome physological limits. I would not say that rats are smarter than ant eaters, what they are is superb generalists instead of the specialists that ant eaters are.


Especially situations for which the organism is not already evolutionarily optimized, which was something else I mentioned. Are rats and cockroaches smarter than dogs and humans? Maybe they are. Or maybe they're enormously successful at sticking to scenarios for which they are evolutionarily optimized.

They are smarter because look how well they adapted to artificial enviroments, this is why pigeons are the smartest birds, never mind african gray parots that can answer questions in a way showing the understanding of the question, or rooks useing tools.

Show me a cockroach that can reason its way abstractly to a solution to the exterminator problem, and I'll show you a organism that is worth measuring on the adaptability-intelligence axis.

They have lots of ways of adapting, you defined adapting and not problem solving as your requirement.

Besides, abstract reasoning by itself isn't really all that smart, if it can't adapt to new situations and solve new problems. It looks like the vast majority of human beings are equipped with incredible abstract reasoning powers, and yet a lot of humans still get stumped by even relatively simple problems (e.g., the Sea Shepherds).

So the had is more important than the brain because it permits solutions?

[dudalb]

Re: the OP - I'm in the weird position of more or less agreeing with their cause, but absolutely hating everyone on that show and hoping they get stranded on an iceberg, forced to eat whale meat to survive.


Consdiering the crappy seamanship the "Sea Sherpards" display, is is sort of amazing this has not already happened.
A buddy of mine at work who watched the show served 8 years in the Coast Guard, and laughed and how bad their Small Vessel handling was.

[quarky]

I haven't seen the Sea Sheppard stuff, so I'm not defending their actions.
But i must object at the notion that intelligence can only exist within our framework.

Whales simply have no way of out-running whalers and harpoons. So, they look dumb to us.
Humans look dumb when they have car wrecks and wars, and when they get out of synch with the ecosystem that supports them.

Perhaps whales could unite, and put up a good and clever fight against whaling ships.
That would show some human-like smarts.
But maybe they know that the humans would have waged an all out war against them.
So, instead, they sent some ambassador dolphins to play in the surf with people and make cute noises and smile...winning their hearts. i think the whales are playing up to the whale-watching cruises; using their finest tool available.

Sometimes, they get beached, which looks real stupid. Sometimes we get aids.
We're the new kid on the block, and have already threatened our own future survival.
Whales have been around long before the first human word was uttered, and just lately, have run into some serious trouble.

I don't think it showed great collective intelligence when humans wiped out lots of the excellent mega-fauna. Some of the huge flightless birds sounded like a pretty sweet deal, but we were too dumb to exploit them sanely. We've learned some hard lessons from the past, or we should have. Some would still like to show the whales who the crown of creation is, if we have to kill them all.

I'd claim that language, not the ability to construct a dwelling, is the highest sign of intelligence. Insects can construct an incredible dwelling. Whales have no use for them.
I think whales have done something to humans to get them to reconsider the slaughter.

Hell, maybe giant redwoods have, too. A bit late, and a pity. What a resource we had!

[alfaniner]

Word has it that the Sea Shepherd Forum is banning all negative posters, even to the point of checking out who is posting on the Animal Planet Forum, then banning them from their own site.

The AP Forum for the most part has been moderated pretty even-handedly even though 95% of the posters have said something against the SSers at some time or another.

[tsig]

Novelist C.J. Cherryh proposed, in her novel 40,000 in Gehenna, that intelligence is closely related to--and perhaps best measured by--adaptability. Of course all organisms respond to stimuli, and many organisms can be trained to adapt to new scenarios.

But the extent to which an organism can adapt to a changing world that presents a constant stream of new and unfamiliar situations (many of which the organism is not evolutionarily optimized for) may go a long way towards indicating just how "smart" that organism really is.

By such a measure, modern computers, precision-engineered for specific tasks, aren't much smarter than an abacus.

By such a measure, if whales are so smart, why is it that the ludicrously incompetent Sea Shepherds are actually more successful at disrupting Japanese whaling operations than the whales themselves? All these years of supposedly intelligent communication amongst themselves, and whales still haven't figured out the simple adaptation of "not getting caught by a whaling boat". I'm serious, here: If whales are so intelligent, why do they need the Sea Shepherds at all? I guarantee you that in the next three or four years, we'll see the Sea Shepherds adapt to the Japanese fleet a lot faster than the whales do.

(And of course by this measure, the Japanese whalers are much more intelligent than the Sea Shepherds, since their rate of adaptation is much quicker and more successful.)

I have always wondered about that. In the days of sailing ships the whales could have smashed the rowboats, sounded and came up somewhere else or just stayed upwind of the ship but they never seemed to figure it out.

Maybe their intelligence is so profound they refuse to harm any living thing.:p

[quarky]

I have always wondered about that. In the days of sailing ships the whales could have smashed the rowboats, sounded and came up somewhere else or just stayed upwind of the ship but they never seemed to figure it out.

Maybe their intelligence is so profound they refuse to harm any living thing.:p

Sometimes they have juveniles in tow. Generally, the pod is exhausted by the time they succumb. That explains some of the stupid behaviour. Fear? Terror? pain? How should whales act when they're under assault? Its quite possible that the whales being atacked during the hey day of whaling had simply never encountered this before. Large ships and explosive harpoons is very new.

What if the whales were smart enough to launch an offense, and smart enough to realize it would be the end of them. There would be no save the whales crowd if whales went around sinking ships and smashing the crew with their flukes. We'd have killed them all.

So, imagine you're a whale, and you're extremely intelligent. What would you do about being attacked by whalers?

[blue sock monkey]

So, imagine you're a whale, and you're extremely intelligent. What would you do about being attacked by whalers?


Make a big sign, of course:

Remember Ahab.

[RandFan]

Humans look dumb when they have car wrecks and wars, and when they get out of synch with the ecosystem that supports them.You left out reality shows. Not exactly a harbinger of hope for humankind.

[GreNME]

I have always wondered about that. In the days of sailing ships the whales could have smashed the rowboats, sounded and came up somewhere else or just stayed upwind of the ship but they never seemed to figure it out.

Maybe their intelligence is so profound they refuse to harm any living thing.:p

http://stephenbodio.blogspot.com/2006/02/whale-attack.html

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2003615853_webwhale13.html

[AWPrime]

And it would be equally interesting to measure the intelligence of a whale by measuring its ability to abstractly reason its way to not getting caught by a Japanese whaler.Well there are multiple kinds of intelligence, the whale's intellect might be mostly verbal, or dealing with predicting the location of food sources.

[RandFan]

It's a bit more murcky than that, really. Yes, Japan's "scientific whaling" is more whaling than it's scientific, and they are exploiting a loophole, but Japan is not entirely to blame for that situation.

The timeline goes something like this:

In 1982, the IWC instituted a temporary moratorium on commercial whaling, effective from 1986, awaiting the completion of a revised management procedure for commercial whaling. Norway submitted a formal objection to the decision, believing that the NMP ("New management procedure") which had recently been adopted was sufficient to prevent over-exploitation.

In 1986 the moratorium went into effect. Norway ceased whaling, but ran a small scientific program (I don't know the numbers on top of my head, but a handful of whales each year). Japan ceased commercial whaling, but kept a fairly large scientific program running -- the total catch was reduced from around 1800 whales to 2-300.

In 1994, the IWC's Scientific Committe submitted the finished RMP to the IWC's assembly, unanimously recommending its adoption. The IWC assembly has, since then, failed to adopt it, basically filibustering the lifting of the moratorium. Also in 1994, Norway resumed its commercial whaling, adhering to the RMP and Japan ramped up its scientific program to about 450 whales each year.

And there you pretty much have it, with the excepmtion of Iceland leaving and rejoining the IWC and some discussions over substistence hunting, the IWC has been at logger-heads since then: the RMP has been completed, but the assembly refuses to adopt it as that would remove the temporary moratorium.

Can Japan really be blamed for exploiting a loophole to avoid a moratorium that by all rights should have been lifted fifteen years ago?Thanks, interesting stuff.