now i'm accused of being a woo!

[Suezoled]

So there's another girl I know who's athletic. She's had stomach pain, headache, nausea, diahrrea, no appetite, but no fever. I mentioned since she had diahrrea, it wouldn't hurt her to eat yogurt for its active cultures, drink some Gatorade, and for gawd's sake take a couple days to rest. See a doctor if symptoms persist for a few days. Well, someone who reccomeds natural remedies said to the girl the yogurt part was all wrong, don't listen to know-nothing woo's who don't have any idea what they're talking about. And that same person said she shouldn't drink Gatorade, since they contained "man made" electrolytes.

garrrr!!!!!!

Luckily, athletic girl made an appointment to see her medical doctor come Monday.

I'm wondering about the yogurt thing, though. Why would it be bad for her?

[Suezoled]

actually, Naturalist Person said to take lots of vitamin C. Funny how it's okay to take Vitamin C tablets (man made vitamin!), according to Naturalist guy, but not Gatorade.

[BTox]

Originally posted by Suezoled
I'm wondering about the yogurt thing, though. Why would it be bad for her?

Nothing wrong with the yogurt suggestion, unless the person is lactose intolerant, of course.

And BTW, the large dose of vitamin C suggestion is much worse as: 1) it will do no good 2) 250 mg is sufficient to saturate the body so any more is a waste 3) large doses of vitamin C can cause diarrhea.

[roger]

Originally posted by Suezoled
I'm wondering about the yogurt thing, though. Why would it be bad for her? Well, this link (http://www.theflashes.net/seniortimes/apr99/stories/033199/fea_yogurt.html) may make you reconsider your advice.

Obviously the "Senior Times" is not the go-to source for medical information, but it was the first thing that popped up in google when I was looking for support about the active cultures & diarrhea thing. I have heard that both were myths, and so googled on this.

[CurtC]

I think the reason you were suggesting yogurt is that you were implying that the diarrhea could be the result of not having enough of the body's natural flora present in the digestive tract, and that yogurt would help replace it. Right?

I have read that even in yogurt with active cultures, very few survive the acidic stomach, and the small amounts of acidophilus bacteria isn't enough to make a difference and isn't really what you need anyway. The whole idea that yogurt can supplement your digestive system's helpful bacteria count is a myth.

[Suezoled]

okay. (I had wondered about yogurt cultures surviving the digestive tract, but wasn't sure.)

But I still don't like being called a woo. :(


(I wonder how well yogurt really works for yeast infections, then....)

[BTox]

Originally posted by CurtC
I have read that even in yogurt with active cultures, very few survive the acidic stomach, and the small amounts of acidophilus bacteria isn't enough to make a difference and isn't really what you need anyway. The whole idea that yogurt can supplement your digestive system's helpful bacteria count is a myth.

Have any sources for this? I've seen studies to the contrary.

[Suezoled]

Printed out the Yogurt study from roger's link and I'm actually going to run this yogurt thing past my medical doctor on my own appointment. I've got a physical this Monday, so I can do that then.

This makes me really curious about how yogurt cultures can survive in the stomach.

[roger]

If you do some searches in MedLine for probiotic you'll find some positive hits (ie some possible support for the health benefits for the cultures which are in yogurt), but I don't have the expertise to judge these - do they show that eating _yogurt_ helps you, or do you need to get the cultures in a different format? My googling gave me the impression that nothing has really been proven, but I am far out of my depth.

[athon]

Lactobacillus can tolerate some pretty low pH levels, from what I remember. I'm sure it can survive in the stomach, although my query would be whether it would make any real difference to the existing microflora. It takes a lot to change the alimentary canal's ecosystem (altering pH for instance, can do it, or adding a virulent strain of bacteria such as a shigella or a vibrio), and I even have my reservations concerning something potent like a probiotic affecting it too much.

Then again, this is not based on any one study I've read, and the last time I did any real pathology research was about five years ago, so maybe the consensus has changed.

Athon

[Rolfe]

Originally posted by CurtC
I have read that even in yogurt with active cultures, very few survive the acidic stomach, and the small amounts of acidophilus bacteria isn't enough to make a difference and isn't really what you need anyway. The whole idea that yogurt can supplement your digestive system's helpful bacteria count is a myth.Not a myth. Definitely in the "needs more research" category.

Too much emphasis is given to looking for pathogenic organisms in diarrhoea cases. Looking at dogs and cats, only about 17% of cases have an identifiable pathogen isolated (that is, percentage of cases the vet decided to send to our lab for culture). However, many more have abnormal populations of commensal flora.

My senior partner did a study where he followed a group of 60 cats with chronic (>2 months) non-pathogen-associated diarrhoea being treated by some sort of probiotic (at that time yoghurt was perhaps the most widely used thing, though various commercial things have appeared, in a pretty uncontrolled and untested sort of way). They all got better, most in about 2 weeks, though some took longer. However, there wasn't a control group and it was only a preliminary look at the subject. What was striking however was that in all the cats the report of return to clinical normality coincided with the return of the commensal flora to normal.

Now we're speculating about what causes the flora to become deranged in the first place, and about how big a part that derangement plays in the clinical condition, but it does seem to be associated with ingestion of some sort of toxin, possibly clostridial. Some papers have been written on this, but I'm still confused about where the sporulation (which produces the toxins) actually happens - in the gut, which is what is suggested by some authors, makes little actual sense.

Anyway, it's certainly still possible that probiotics of various sorts might in the end turn out to be not as good as we think, but it's certainly more than myth, and has a perfectly plausible mechanism of action.

It doesn't matter that most of the bacteria in the probiotic get killed in the stomach - so long as a proportion gets through, there is a chance of them multiplying. Just as the tiny proportion of pathogenic bacteria which survive the stomach do!

At the very least, dishing out a probiotic for a diarrhoea which may well be self-limiting is one hell of a lot less irresponsible than dishing out an antibiotic, to treat a non-existent infection, and contribute even further to the spread of antibiotic resistance. I just get cross when colleagues knee-jerk dismiss the idea because they've labelled it "alternative". Yes, there are a load of woo-woos claiming that probiotics will cure everything from AIDS to ME, but that doesn't mean that an as-yet-unestablished but nevertheless plausible use is automatically woo-woo.

Rolfe.

[Suezoled]

I find it funny how so many women in the US use yogurt to treat their yeast infections. They eat it, every day for a week, and their infections clear up, or they eat it when they feel one coming on, and they don't get one. Some claim if they eat it when they don't have a yeast infection, it gives them a yeast infection.

I'm only talking about 50 or so women, who I've talked to. They're from all walks of life, and all ages, and of course it's highly subjective.

[Yahweh]

Originally posted by Suezoled
okay. (I had wondered about yogurt cultures surviving the digestive tract, but wasn't sure.)

But I still don't like being called a woo. :(


(I wonder how well yogurt really works for yeast infections, then....)
Your yogurt advice was perfectly fine. Ignoring its lack medical application, just try to think "Yogurt = Yum! And Healthy!".

At least you were suggesting that the woman get her aura cleansed...

(It wasnt necessary for the woman to call you a "woo". It would have been much better for her to say "The yogurt thing is a myth, and here's why ... blah blah blah..." rather than insulting you.)

Here's a kitten to cheer you up :)...

http://216.218.248.155/datastore/27/5a/b/275a9d4fabd0615bef326b88cbe72bcc.jpg

That kitten is so you!

[T'ai Chi]

Originally posted by Suezoled
I find it funny how so many women in the US use yogurt to treat their yeast infections. They eat it, every day for a week, and their infections clear up, or they eat it when they feel one coming on, and they don't get one. Some claim if they eat it when they don't have a yeast infection, it gives them a yeast infection.

I'm only talking about 50 or so women, who I've talked to. They're from all walks of life, and all ages, and of course it's highly subjective.

That topic is quite the conversation starter! I'll have to try it next time I'm at a bar. :p

[athon]

Originally posted by Suezoled
I find it funny how so many women in the US use yogurt to treat their yeast infections. They eat it, every day for a week, and their infections clear up, or they eat it when they feel one coming on, and they don't get one. Some claim if they eat it when they don't have a yeast infection, it gives them a yeast infection.

I'm only talking about 50 or so women, who I've talked to. They're from all walks of life, and all ages, and of course it's highly subjective.

Umm, I didn't think you ate yoghurt to cure candida. I mean, how would that work? There is no way the bacteria would make any difference to the pH, and the acid of the yoghurt would make no real noticeable difference to the pH of the vagina.

Athon

[pupdog]

It seems to me that eating something that would add to gut flora, while suffering diarrhea, is not a good idea. When I was preparing to go to China, I was given some stuff that was said to kill nearly everything in the gut, in order to stop diarrhea. Afterwords, eating something to replace the flora would probably be good. I was also given a packet of some kind of salts to replace the electrolytes that diarrhea depletes. Chemicals are chemicals--KCl is the same thing whether created by evaporation in a lagoon or by Merck & Co.

[Eos of the Eons]

Originally posted by pupdog
It seems to me that eating something that would add to gut flora, while suffering diarrhea, is not a good idea. When I was preparing to go to China, I was given some stuff that was said to kill nearly everything in the gut, in order to stop diarrhea. Afterwords, eating something to replace the flora would probably be good. I was also given a packet of some kind of salts to replace the electrolytes that diarrhea depletes. Chemicals are chemicals--KCl is the same thing whether created by evaporation in a lagoon or by Merck & Co.

Milk products are the worst thing for diarrhea. You get gas, big time, and it hurts. Even just water or fruit juice can cause problems. I went in to the doctor with killer pain in my gut after drinking water and grape juice when I had the runs really bad. I had no fever either. He gave me heck (kinda) for just drinking water and juice. He said anyone with the runs needs electrolytes...A nurse brought me a can of ginger ale. I felt much better after drinking it, and kinda embarrassed when I learned that was all I needed when I thought my guts were going to explode.

You can go for the gatorade, or pedialyte, or any other sports drinks, or, of course, ginger ale.

If you have the runs you can eat toast, bananas, apples, etc. Avoid milk products until the diarrhea clears up.

Yeast infections, go for the yogurt by all means. There is a certain bacterium that the yogurt needs to be made with, and not all brands have it. I'll try to look it up. My doc told me which one, but it's a long name as usual. I see some advice about using it externally, but that's unnecessary. Just eat the yogurt.

I think it's Lactobacillus acidophilus that needs to be in the yogurt.

[Suezoled]

Originally posted by Eos of the Eons


(snipped). He said anyone with the runs needs electrolytes...A nurse brought me a can of ginger ale. I felt much better after drinking it, and kinda embarrassed when I learned that was all I needed when I thought my guts were going to explode.

You can go for the gatorade, or pedialyte, or any other sports drinks, or, of course, ginger ale.

If you have the runs you can eat toast, bananas, apples, etc. Avoid milk products until the diarrhea clears up.

Yeast infections, go for the yogurt by all means. (snipped)

I think it's Lactobacillus acidophilus that needs to be in the yogurt.

Well, if I had the runs, I would grateful ginger ale would be all I needed to feel better. :)

Athletic girl is feeling better. She probably single handedly made the Gatorade stockmarket go up from all the bottles she bought this week. And she did have yogurt, but she at it with the pills the lactose intolerant folks (like me) take. Took lots of toast and chicken soup, and took this weekend off to rest. I did ask her about bloating and gas, and she said she was getting her period, but the bloating was no worse than usual. Could have been those little lactaid tablets, though, that helped.

And yes, yogurt with acidiphilus (which makes your standard yogurt sour tasting) is what helps a yeast infection, and you do EAT it, not squirt it up your crotch.
Scenario: Wife: Honey, get me some yogurt and a big turkey baster, would you?
Husband: (grabs coat and runs out the door, never to return.)

Yahweh: thanks for the kitty! It's soo cute! :)

[Chanileslie]

Originally posted by Suezoled
So there's another girl I know who's athletic. She's had stomach pain, headache, nausea, diahrrea, no appetite, but no fever. I mentioned since she had diahrrea, it wouldn't hurt her to eat yogurt for its active cultures, drink some Gatorade, and for gawd's sake take a couple days to rest. See a doctor if symptoms persist for a few days. Well, someone who reccomeds natural remedies said to the girl the yogurt part was all wrong, don't listen to know-nothing woo's who don't have any idea what they're talking about. And that same person said she shouldn't drink Gatorade, since they contained "man made" electrolytes.

garrrr!!!!!!

Luckily, athletic girl made an appointment to see her medical doctor come Monday.

I'm wondering about the yogurt thing, though. Why would it be bad for her?

I hardly think that yogurt would hurt her any more than any other milk based products. The bacteria in yogurt won't survive past the stomach acids.

[Chanileslie]

Originally posted by Suezoled
I find it funny how so many women in the US use yogurt to treat their yeast infections. They eat it, every day for a week, and their infections clear up, or they eat it when they feel one coming on, and they don't get one. Some claim if they eat it when they don't have a yeast infection, it gives them a yeast infection.

I'm only talking about 50 or so women, who I've talked to. They're from all walks of life, and all ages, and of course it's highly subjective.

These woman's results are doubtful, and their claims to the contrary are most likely due to either some other treatment, mistaken symptoms of a yeast infection, or a placebo effect. The ingredient in yogurt that would provide relief from yeast infections would not be of any help what so ever if the women are consuming the product. Now, if they actually put into the vagina, then it would provide some help. The bacteria will become denatured in the stomach acids. Denatured meaning they are killed. And it is the bacteria that would be beneficial for curing a yeast infection.

[Chanileslie]

Originally posted by BTox


Have any sources for this? I've seen studies to the contrary.

Could you please let me know what studies. I would be very interested. Very little bacteria will survive an acid of a Ph of 2, which is what your stomach consists of. Most bacteria will become denatured very quickly in acid. Most issues with bacteria that invades the body usually comes in through other avenues than the stomach and digestive system, such as a the nose, open sores, etc.

[Eos of the Eons]

Hey, those E-coli survive through the digestive tract right? And salmonella? Depends on their cell wall maybe? I dunno. Maybe they're called acidophilus for a reason.

[Phaycops]

I was under the impression that yogurt only helps if you apply it topically (i.e., squirt it up your crotch :)). Otherwise, as other posters have said, how could it possibly help?

[garys_2k]

Originally posted by Phaycops
(i.e., squirt it up your crotch :)).
Ah, another incurable romantic! :D

[Rolfe]

Just to recap a little (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=32179#post1870228543).

We've actually done some experimental work on the use of probiotics for chronic diarrhoea, and while I'd be the first to admit that there's still a great deal we don't know, preliminary results have been quite encouraging.

In particular, while milk products may well induce diarrhoea in normal animals sometimes, that doesn't mean that yoghurt isn't beneficial if they have diarrhoea associated with a flora upset.

Also, you don't need all the ingested dose to get through the stomach to get the effect, so long as even 1% makes it there is enough there to multiply in the intestine. Just the same way as 1% of an ingested dose of salmonella surviving into the intestine will be enough to multiply.

Some manufacturers are now using enteric coatings on the preparations in the theoretical hope of improving survival through the stomach.

One problem is that the VMD won't recognise these products as "drugs", but insists on classing them as food supplements. This discourages proper research and encourages marketing "on spec" of somehting that seems like a good idea. I'd still rather go with this than throw antibiotics at diarrhoec animals willy-nilly (as some vets still do), given that 85% of these animals have no identifiable pathogen present.

Having said that, eating yoghurt to treat a vaginal yeast infaction is simply brain-dead.

Rolfe.

[Suezoled]

Having said that, eating yoghurt to treat a vaginal yeast infaction is simply brain-dead.


I dunno. I was just repeating what I was told. I have no experience about treating yeast infections this way....

[Eos of the Eons]

Yeah, maybe by the time you eat the yogurt it is clearing up, and it just seems to help. Big Rumor it is though.