Crushed pill experiment for Vision From Feeling

[Ashles]

On her website here (http://www.visionfromfeeling.com/comments.html) Anita Ikonen aka Vision From Feeling says the following:

If anyone wants to put me through a medicine identification test then please do! You need access to a couple of different types of medicines. If any of them are prescription medicines that would be better since those have stronger effects and produce stronger chemical perceptions for me. It is better if the samples do not have similar effects in the body. I will need labeled samples of each for reference. E-mail me and I can provide my mailing address.
brightstar@visionfromfeeling.com

This is a much, much better and simpler experimental protocol than others that have been suggested by Anita.

It is a paranormal ability, one Anita claims she has been able to do (in several different instances) and one now that Anita appears willing to test.

Obviously a postal test is nowhere near as ideal as a live test so the proposal is that Anita should at least attempt this simple and quick test with any of the skeptic groups she is involved with.

It could be set up very easily and, if Anita had the abilty she claims, could yield impressive results.
Also Anita could spend as long as she wishes looking at the samples without any of the issues connected with any human subject tests.
It would require no special apparatus, location, participants (other than a couple of skepics), expense or permissions.

And if it yields negative results it wouldn't delay any of Anita's other proposed tests.

Since Anita is interested in examining her own claim surely there should be no reason not to carry this out, especially as she has offered to do it on her own site.

This is not suggested as an alternative to any other proposed experiments - it is an additional experiment which would be very useful in pushing this claim forward as actual testing on this claim has been continually delayed or not carried out to everyone's satisfaction.

Any thoughts?

[Skeptical Greg]

What's with the " I will need labeled samples of each for reference. " ?
Is that some kind of joke ?

Besides, with her access to college chemistry labs, how do we know she wouldn't have the samples analyzed ?

[Akhenaten]

This seems worth pursuing in that it is a relatively simple test both in design and conduct.

Even if the test eventually yields no evidence for or against extra-sensory abilities, the process ought to at least provide valuable insights into the rigour that will be required should more ambitious projects be undertaken, and provide guidelines for the formulation of more complex protocols.

Your suggestion is relevant to my interests and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.


Cheers,

Dave

[Ashles]

What's with the " I will need labeled samples of each for reference. " ?
Is that some kind of joke ?

Besides, with her access to college chemistry labs, how do we know she wouldn't have the samples analyzed ?

That's why the test should be conducted live in person by a skeptical group.

[Skeptical Greg]

P.S.

Hasn't she already waffled on a crushed pill test back in January ?

[Akhenaten]

P.S.

Hasn't she already waffled on a crushed pill test back in January ?


Unfortunately for the claimant, previous discussions weren't in a thread specifically related to this particular claim, whereas now, in a dedicated thread, it is to be hoped that Vision from Feeling will be able to better answer specific questions, sans the distractions of a "general" thread.


Cheers,

Dave

[Ashles]

P.S.

Hasn't she already waffled on a crushed pill test back in January ?


Well she has now clearly offered on her wbsite to take such a test.

It wouldn't make any sense for her to actively want to do it by mail, but object to performing such a test live if there are skeptics wiling to cary out such a test.


What's with the " I will need labeled samples of each for reference. " ?
Is that some kind of joke ?


The idea is that there are labelled samples of each for comparison then the test samples are unlabelled and coloured with food dye.

[Audible Click]

Perhaps the FACT skeptics in her area would be willing to test VfF. This could be done "live" with very little expense and could even be video taped as per this request from IIG:

From the VfF website:

Preliminary demonstration and test
I think the IIG will ask me to travel to Los Angeles to have a preliminary demonstration of my claim, after which if I pass it the test can be held. At one point the IIG asked me to prepare a video where I demonstrate how the claimed ability takes place. I have not done that, but I still might.

Any thoughts on this Anita?

[Skeptical Greg]

She writes at her site:

However I don't see how I failed the test when I chose not to do the test. I need reference samples in order to match what I perceive in the unlabeled crushed samples with what I perceive in labeled samples. The given names of medicines are of course not included in the vibrational information I feel. I can not do this test without reference samples. I did perceive some of the effects of the samples, such as targeting the sinuses, but there were two pairs of medicines whose perceived effects were both similar to one another, and this is consistent with the medicines I had (ibuprofen and aspirin have certain similar effects, phenylephrine hcl and cetirizine hydrochloride as well). Had I had actual reference samples, perhaps I could have better distinguished these pairs and felt confident to make some matches.


She claims to detect the ' target ' of the medicines . Accurately doing that, should be sufficient ..

I don't see why ' naming ' the medicine is necessary for a successful test..

There are too many ( one is too many ) opportunities to cheat, including taste and smell ..

[Ashles]

She writes at her site:

She claims to detect the ' target ' of the medicines . Accurately doing that, should be sufficient ..

I don't see why ' naming ' the medicine is necessary for a successful test..

There are too many ( one is too many ) opportunities to cheat, including taste and smell ..

That's why the skeptics would be there to watch the test.

Ideally it should be videod.

[Ashles]

I'm interested to see what Anita's view is on this or whether she will ignore it completely.

[Audible Click]

This test is really doable and makes more sense when compared to the cumbersome and flawed protocol put forward in the VfF Kidney Detection thread. If VfF could complete the crushed pill test with good results then she could move on to, the much more complicated, kidney test. This test could, perhaps, be supervised and video taped by, FACT members, a group that is in her own area. Since VfF hasn't bothered to comment in this thread, I'm left to assume she's not interested in doing this logical first step.

[Uncayimmy]

This test is really doable and makes more sense when compared to the cumbersome and flawed protocol put forward in the VfF Kidney Detection thread. If VfF could complete the crushed pill test with good results then she could move on to, the much more complicated, kidney test. This test could, perhaps, be supervised and video taped by, FACT members, a group that is in her own area. Since VfF hasn't bothered to comment in this thread, I'm left to assume she's not interested in doing this logical first step.

This test would, IMHO, be sufficient to submit to the IIG Challenge and the JREF MDC. In fact, Anita has already inquired to the JREF about it. I am curious to see the objections. After all, doing this simple test would not preclude her from doing any other test. It's not an either/or proposition.

[FramerDave]

She writes at her site:




She claims to detect the ' target ' of the medicines . Accurately doing that, should be sufficient ..

I don't see why ' naming ' the medicine is necessary for a successful test..

There are too many ( one is too many ) opportunities to cheat, including taste and smell ..

I agree. It seems like there are enough varieties of medicines targeting different parts of the body and ailments that someone with her claimed abilities should be able to differentiate among them. Just a few off the top of my head:

Antivirals
Anti-inflammatories
Sinus medications
Muscle relaxers
Sedatives
Psychotropics
Contraceptives
Hormones

Presenting her with finely crushed pills in transparent or opaque plastic bags should eliminate any chance of identification by taste or smell.

On the other hand, what if she were provided with one pill of each type, whole and labeled? She could familiarize herself with their "vibrations" or whatever. I still think it would be a compelling test if she were able to match their crushed counterparts. Using opaque containers would eliminate the chances of her identifying them by sight or smell. *

Either way, an unsupervised test means nothing.



*Assuming she doesn't claim that a thin plastic bag will interfere with her abilities. yet she can "see" through flesh?

[Farencue]

Perhaps her FACT group will help with a crushed pill test.
They did, after all, help her with another test of "the main claim".
Just because Dr Carlson doesnt think Anita has any ability worth testing shouldnt get in her way of setting something else up with them.
Or would it?

[catbasket]

Paperskater has recently kindly offered to help arrange a crushed pill test -
Actually, I might be able to help out with another medication test, even though I suspect it won't really mean anything. I work in a pharmacy, which also does compounding.

There are lots of white medications that do completely different things. If crushed very very finely, five different kinds of medication that are not colored are virtually indistinguishable from each other by sight alone, even if you do have intact, labeled "reference" samples right there in front of you.

I could prepare five of these samples that have the same amount of crushed medication in each packet (so nobody would be able to match up the medications according to intact pill size to volume of the crushed medication sample) and send them off?

[Audible Click]

I'm posting again in the vain hope that VfF will at least post here as this is a viable alternitive to the, ever more complicated, kidney detection test.

[Chimera]

It would seem straightforward to mail crushed pill samples directly to one of the FACT skeptics instead of Anita.

[Ashles]

It would seem straightforward to...

It's usually anything following those words that Anita reflexively rejects.

[Madalch]

You would think that the chemical identification test proposed last year some time woul dbe even easier, but she found that staring at white powders was too much work.

[Ashles]

Aanyway. Back on the subject of the crushed pill protocol, can anyone remember where Anita posted her experience with seeing chemicals in containers? Was it in the original mega-thread?

[Hokulele]

Aanyway. Back on the subject of the crushed pill protocol, can anyone remember where Anita posted her experience with seeing chemicals in containers? Was it in the original mega-thread?


It was one of her very first posts here.

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=4180349#post4180349

[Akhenaten]

It was one of her very first posts here.

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=4180349#post4180349



Here's an interesting quote. Not only do we have a claim of vision at molecular level, but a perhaps ominous hint at events that were yet to unfold.


By looking into the molecules, I could for instance clearly see biphenyl, and the nitrogen that was involved in two of the others was clearly detectable and a helpful clue.

I have a great advantage. Of course I would not use this ability as a working professional to make final conclusions, especially if working in the medical field involving patients.


Of course she wouldn't.

[Gaspode]

Off-topic posts moved to AAH (http://forums.randi.org/forumdisplay.php?f=58).

Let's keep this on topic. And remember to attack the argument, not the arguer.

[Dan O.]

Tagging of the crushed pills should be done in a manor that makes it indisputable which pill was crushed for each sample. One possibility is to use a sample pill that is dyed but not crushed as the key. If done properly, there wouldn't be any argument that the samples could have gotten mixed up.

[Audible Click]

I'm hoping that VfF will take a look at this thread now that she has said she's not sure if her kidney detection will work all the time.

[Ashles]

I find it interesting that Anita has not responded to this perfectly reasonable protocol.

[Akhenaten]

Tagging of the crushed pills should be done in a manner that makes it indisputable which pill was crushed for each sample. One possibility is to use a sample pill that is dyed but not crushed as the key. If done properly, there wouldn't be any argument that the samples could have gotten mixed up.


Good point. If I recall correctly, dyeing of the samples has also been suggested as a method of preventing identification by colour alone.

[Empress]

A quick glance at her profile shows that Anita has made over 80 posts since this thread was started. Yet she apparently has not had enough interest in this topic (about her own claimed ability) to make even one post here, despite the numerous skeptics attempting to help her create a genuinely falsifiable claim with good protocol.

Quite telling, IMO.

[Akhenaten]

Indeed it is. Why, this thread appears to have been almost forgotten.

[Hokulele]

VfF, paperskater has graciously offered to make up sealed packets with various medications, as well as reference samples. Does the offer you make here still hold?

If anyone wants to put me through a medicine identification test then please do! You need access to a couple of different types of medicines. If any of them are prescription medicines that would be better since those have stronger effects and produce stronger chemical perceptions for me. It is better if the samples do not have similar effects in the body. I will need labeled samples of each for reference.

[Uncayimmy]

I e-mailed (not PM) the following to GodOfPie, organizer of the F-A-C-T meetup group. Perhaps Anita can post it on their Meetup message board as well in case GodOfPie doesn't see it in time.

UncaYimmy of www.StopVisionFromFeeling.com, here...

Anita (VFF) says, "If anyone wants to put me through a medicine identification test then please do! You need access to a couple of different types of medicines. If any of them are prescription medicines that would be better since those have stronger effects and produce stronger chemical perceptions for me. It is better if the samples do not have similar effects in the body. I will need labeled samples of each for reference."

We tried this before, but she balked because nobody mailed her any reference samples, and she can't afford the $5. In the test, Pup, a JREF Forums member, crushed the pills, then added a touch of food coloring. If your medicine cabinet is like mine, I'm sure you could do the same in just a few minutes and stick them in a baggie along with uncrushed references to see of she can match them up. We'd love to hear the results, especially if you made multiple crushed versions for each medicine and included references that did not have crushed versions.

[Empress]

Great email, UY. Love to see them hold her feet to the fire on this. Let me charge up the ol' psychic gray cells and see if I can predict the outcome. Ahem.

"Oh great! I can't wait to do this! Hey, everyone gather around and watch me be brilliant! I can do this! I can!"

*Minute passes*

"I can't do this. It gives me a headache and nausea, I have to stop. Btw, Dr Carlson, did you know that you only have one kidney? I detected that with my sooper-secret x-ray vision! Aren't I special?

"ME!!!!"

[Ashles]

Excellent idea Unca.

Just the kind of thing that makes for an easy and quick experiment that illustrates skepticism nicely.

I'm sure Anita could have no objection to doing something skeptical while at a Skeptics meeting.

[Gmonster2]

Great idea but heres what will happen.

If Anita turns up at FACT and god of pie brings out the pill samples she will look at them for a while and then say she needs more time and will take them home to work on them, last time it took a few hours so there won't be enough time to do the test at fact.

and then she will take them home and flush them down the toilet...;)

[Akhenaten]

It's starting to look like crash-and-burn time in Kidneyland.

That should leave VfF some time free to look into this relatively simple test.

[Uncayimmy]

I e-mailed (not PM) my suggestion about the crushed pill test to VFF and asked her to post it on the Meetup board and/or send out a message to all the members.

[paperskater]

I am back from my trip to New York, so I'm trying to catch up on all of this.

My offer still stands.

Easy references to my original offer, to save some time, here are some quick links...

First post (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=4994633&postcount=391)
Second post (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=4994651&postcount=393)
Third post (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=4994861&postcount=399)

[Hokulele]

Thanks for the update.

[Uncayimmy]

VFF responded to my e-mail to say that she would print out the letter and bring it to the meeting. She did not mention why she didn't post it in advance to the Meetup members could take a stab at doing the test at this meeting.

[paperskater]

Just a hopeful bump, in case Anita hasn't seen my offer.

[Giggywig]

Just a hopeful bump, in case Anita hasn't seen my offer.

The fact that Anita has avoided this thread and the shoe thread like the plague speaks volumes about her claims. These are two simple cheap protocols which could be tested with a couple of days notice, in comparison to the kidney "protocol." I think it says all I need to know about her claims.

[Ashles]

It's a littronic that this thrad had to be created as Anita refused to discuss any other claims than her Kidney Detection claim on that thread, and even complained to the mods...

Yet now she has proposed a completely different test in that thread which has no resemblance to any sort of Kidney Detection protocol.

And has no controls, no skeptics, uses someone a friend knows...

[Jeff Corey]

It's a littronic that this thrad had to be created as Anita refused to discuss any other claims than her Kidney Detection claim on that thread, and even complained to the mods...

Yet now she has proposed a completely different test in that thread which has no resemblance to any sort of Kidney Detection protocol.

And has no controls, no skeptics, uses someone a friend knows...

Funny, I just commented on that over there.

[paperskater]

Another bump, because I see that Anita is online at the moment. Giving her another chance to see this thread.

(I must be a masochist or something.)

[dlorde]

Is there some guarantee of the test conditions? Supervision? What stops a UV light comparison, or simple chemical analysis (taste, solvents, etc) ?

[Empress]

Probably the fact that VFF won't take papkerskater up on her offer.

[Uncayimmy]

GodofPie has informed me that they (F-A-C-T) do not plan on organizing and participating in a crushed pill test for Anita. Many thanks to GodofPie for considering the request and getting back to me.

[Hokulele]

If VfF does agree to do the crushed pill experiment via mail, although that is looking more and more unlikely, would it make sense to have 2 or more others take it as well? Paperskater, would it be feasible to make several sets of samples and references, or would that cost too much?

[GeeMack]

If VfF does agree to do the crushed pill experiment via mail, [...]


Like the first time she took the crushed pill sample test by mail, and failed to identify even a single sample of the (I believe) 5 provided, maintaining a 100% consistent record of failing every single test she has been involved in. Which continues to lend support to this conclusion...

Feel free to apply skepticism and call me a liar and a fraud.


Anita is a liar and a fraud.

[paperskater]

If VfF does agree to do the crushed pill experiment via mail, although that is looking more and more unlikely, would it make sense to have 2 or more others take it as well? Paperskater, would it be feasible to make several sets of samples and references, or would that cost too much?


That would be fine with me. Actually, I'd prefer to send several duplicate samples to other forum members as a control.

[Uncayimmy]

That would be fine with me. Actually, I'd prefer to send several duplicate samples to other forum members as a control.

Count me in.

[paperskater]

One thing that might be a problem is how to verify my integrity to satisfy Anita. I mean, she could possibly agree to all this, fail, then claim that I had mislabeled the original samples or something like that. I know personally that I would never do that, but that doesn't necessarily mean anything on the Internet.

[Hokulele]

One thing that might be a problem is how to verify my integrity to satisfy Anita. I mean, she could possibly agree to all this, fail, then claim that I had mislabeled the original samples or something like that. I know personally that I would never do that, but that doesn't necessarily mean anything on the Internet.


Seal them in tamperproof bags with your signature across the seal. Send them to VfF for reading. She signs the seal and sends them back to you. You verify that they have not been tampered with and release the correct identities of the samples. Send the bags back to her (she can verify you didn't tamper with her signature), and she can open the bags and test the substances and way she wishes to verify that your identifications match the contents.

Cumbersome, but it might work.

[Sean84]

There are far more productive and/or entertaining ways to waste your time.

[steenkh]

There are far more productive and/or entertaining ways to waste your time.
Certainly, but some of us are old enough not to think of sex all the time ...

[Sean84]

You can can get pills for that nowadays...

[Dan O.]

Seal them in tamperproof bags with your signature across the seal. Send them to VfF for reading. She signs the seal and sends them back to you. You verify that they have not been tampered with and release the correct identities of the samples. Send the bags back to her (she can verify you didn't tamper with her signature), and she can open the bags and test the substances and way she wishes to verify that your identifications match the contents.

Cumbersome, but it might work.

Once any seal is broken the test would be void. To maintain validity and allow VfF to have the samples tested herself, you would need to send 2 sealed samples of each medication. VfF would have the opportunity to sense that the 2 samples are the same during the test and one sample could be returned to her after the test if she wanted to verify that the samples were not mislabeled. paperskater would keep the other sample sealed in case she needed to clear an allegation of tampering with the test.


A more critical snag may be the legality of sending prescription drugs through the mail to a recipient that does not have a prescription.

[Paul2]

I called the USPS recently and the person I talked to said that I could send my friend's syringes and insulin that he forgot in the mail to him, both of which, I presume, were prescriptions.

[Kariboo]

I called the USPS recently and the person I talked to said that I could send my friend's syringes and insulin that he forgot in the mail to him, both of which, I presume, were prescriptions.

Yes, but it was his prescription. I'm pretty sure you are not allowed to send prescription meds to someone who is not prescribed them.

[Professor Yaffle]

I'm sure they wouldn't have to be prescription drugs.

[Kariboo]

True for the average paranormal claimant. However VFf stipulates

If any of them are prescription medicines that would be better since those have stronger effects and produce stronger chemical perceptions for me.

So I am pretty sure that she would use the fact that they are not prescription medicines as an out for not being able to do the test.

[desertgal]

True for the average paranormal claimant. However VFf stipulates

If any of them are prescription medicines that would be better since those have stronger effects and produce stronger chemical perceptions for me.So I am pretty sure that she would use the fact that they are not prescription medicines as an out for not being able to do the test.

She is inaccurate, to boot. Not all prescription medicines have stronger effects than over the counter meds. It depends on the medication. Common sense should tell her...oh, wait, I forgot who I was talking about for a second.

Considering she has claimed that she once became stoned from looking at a picture of marijuana, then the issue of whether a drug is prescription strength or not should have no bearing on her 'chemical perceptions'. :rolleyes:

[Kariboo]

She is inaccurate, to boot. Not all prescription medicines have stronger effects than over the counter meds. It depends on the medication. Common sense should tell her...oh, wait, I forgot who I was talking about for a second.

Considering she has claimed that she once became stoned from looking at a picture of marijuana, then the issue of whether a drug is prescription strength or not should have no bearing on her 'chemical perceptions'. :rolleyes:


I know, I'm not saying it makes sense. Stopped doing that oh, a while ago;)

I just don't want Paperskater or anyone else go through a lot of trouble just to find out that VFf can't vibrate Zyrtec in the US since it is OTC but she could do it in Sweden since there is is prescription only or similarly with advil PM (available in the US otc but by prescription only in Sweden)

eta. Not to mention that Zyrtec for instance was prescription in the US until about a year ago. That vibrating stuff is keeping nice track with FDA approvals I presume.

'R Sumpthin :boggled:

[Madalch]

Her first claim was that she could sense elements. It would be trivial to set up something with simple salts and have her try to identify them.

But it's simple to do, so she's not interested.

[Uncayimmy]

Her first claim was that she could sense elements. It would be trivial to set up something with simple salts and have her try to identify them.

But it's simple to do, so she's not interested.

Yet this simple claim will be "falsified" by a failed kidney detection test. It makes no sense to avoid these simple tests and insist on a complicated test.

[GeeMack]

It makes no sense to avoid these simple tests and insist on a complicated test.


... unless perhaps the claimant's state of mental health is such that things making no sense to you and I do make sense to her, or maybe if she is...


Feel free to apply skepticism and call me a liar and a fraud.


... a liar and a fraud.

[Sean84]

Well now I feel cheated, I got a warning for calling her a pathological liar before she gave the OK...

She will not take a simple test. She knows she can't pass one. She will never be tested. She is using people to expand her website to expand her fraud to expand her brand. Her brand is one of complete BS. She knows this. She is a liar and a fraud. Every attempt to help her will give her fodder to expand.

A pawn may become a queen, but never a player.