N. Korea: the grand deception

[Huzington]

A good article about people have been to N. Korea. They note
that the notions of isolationism etc in N. Korea "dissolved" upon
their visit. Free health care, free housing, free education including
university education, no death penalty, etc.

"On September 29th, 2003 four lawyers from the National Lawyers Guild of the United States, Peter Erlinder, Professor of Law at the William Mitchell School of Law in St. Paul, Minnesota, Neil Berman, Attorney in Boston, Massachusetts and Eric Sirotkin and Jennie Lusk, Attorneys in Albuquerque, New Mexico as well as a member of the American Association of Jurists, Christopher Black, Barrister in Toronto, Canada, traveled to North Korea. [...]

"We came to North Korea in order to increase bonds between lawyers in North Korea and the west, as well as to increase understanding between the peoples of North America and North Korea in order to reduce the risk of war between the DPRK and the United States of America."

Read the rest here:
http://www.korea-is-one.org/articles/lawyers.htm

[geni]

Fact: no website created and run in North Korea has ever been found.

Ah yes not at all isolationist

[Huzington]

Originally posted by geni
Fact: no website created and run in North Korea has ever been found.

Ah yes not at all isolationist

According to US intelligence there are plenty of websites form
NK, but they also add that their purpose is "propaganda". (When it is information from the imperialist nations, it is "news", "opinion", etc. When it is the same type of information from the enemies of the imperialist nations, it is "propaganda", "indoctrination", etc.) KCNA is one of many. There are many NK websites on the internet, including study groups and libraries of Kim Jong il's works. I can provide links if you want.

Here is the report:
http://www.east-asia-intel.com/eai/Current/12_12_03.1.html

That's your argument out the window.

[Jocko]

Originally posted by Huzington


According to US intelligence there are plenty of websites form
NK, but they also add that their purpose is "propaganda". (When it is information from the imperialist nations, it is "news", "opinion", etc. When it is the same type of information from the enemies of the imperialist nations, it is "propaganda", "indoctrination", etc.) KCNA is one of many. There are many NK websites on the internet, including study groups and libraries of Kim Jong il's works. I can provide links if you want.

Here is the report:
http://media.fastclick.net/w/get.media?t=n&sid=8225&m=1&f=b&v=1.4&c=419&r=http%3A//www.politicsforum.org/forum/viewtopic.php%3Ft%3D4240&d=f

That's your argument out the window.

Tellya what, brudder comrade, you point me to one website you say is hosted in the worker's paradise that is North Korea, and I will gladly post the traceroute that proves it, showing every server navigated between here and there.

I await your choice of website. Power to the people.

[Huzington]

N. Korea isolationist?

Let us see...from the forementioned article:

II. First Impressions

On September 29th we went to the embassy of the DPRK in Beijing to obtain our visas. It was there that our eyes first began to open. Also waiting for visas were a young Irishman who wanted to tour the country and a Canadian representative of Saskatchewan farmers providing aid to North Korean farmers, whose aid is matched by the Canadian government four to one. Before leaving to North Korea we had already become aware of the many nations in Europe and across the planet that have formal diplomatic relations with the DPRK, but we were not ready for the many international contacts we would make over the next week.

On September 30th we went to the international airport at Beijing to board the Air Koryo plane to Pyongyang, the capital of North Korea. [...] the image of an isolated country truly began to dissolve. In the check-in line and afterwards on board the full plane we met our Canadian friend, a Swede who was going to help farmers learn how to handle cows, a couple of Congolese diplomats, British journalists, a Russian establishing art exchanges, a teacher from Liverpool and, from the sound of the different accents, people from several other countries.

At the airport in Pyongyang we waited for some time while bags were x-rayed coming into the country. One member reported much of her nervousness dissolve as she waited in line and watched some guards laughing and joking with each other. It was not a highly charged and intimidating scene, and was more relaxed than most U.S. airport security.

[Ralph]

And what country do you live in Huzington?

[Jocko]

Originally posted by Huzington
N. Korea isolationist?

Let us see...from the forementioned article:



Well, if you can't trust a tourist's opinion of the airport, who can you trust?

Geez, does anyone else miss Kruschev? I remember when propaganda was PROPAGANDA, not this milquetoast brochure stuff.

Still waiting for that website, comrade.

[Huzington]

Ignoring all contrary evidence again, are we? :rolleyes:

[geni]

After the Korean War, Kim Il-sung introduced the personal philosophy of Juche, or self-reliance, which became a guiding light for North Korea's development.

But decades of this rigid state-controlled system have led to stagnation and a leadership dependent on the cult of personality.

Aid agencies have estimated that up to two million people have died since the mid-1990s as a result of acute food shortages caused by natural disasters and economic mismanagement.

Kim Il-sung's son, Kim Jong-il, is now head of state, but the post of president has been assigned "eternally" to his late father.



source (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/country_profiles/1131421.stm)

[Jocko]

Originally posted by Huzington
Ignoring all contrary evidence again, are we? :rolleyes:

Not in the least. In case you haven't noticed, comrade, I'm BEGGING for contrary evidence. You're the tease who won't put out.

Come on already!! To each, according to his need! I need a website from you! So start coughing up according to your abilities!

...Or is that what you've been (not) doing all along?

[RussDill]

Yes, thats why when north korean sports players come to capitalist countries, the windows on the bus are drawn so they will not see the horrors. Sure their is no excecution in north korea, unless you count being starved to death because you or a family member disagrees with the government or owns a radio as excecution.

[Huzington]

Originally posted by geni


source (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/country_profiles/1131421.stm)

Read the article the link to which I posted in my original post. :rolleyes:

[Huzington]

Originally posted by RussDill
Yes, thats why when north korean sports players come to capitalist countries, the windows on the bus are drawn so they will not see the horrors. Sure their is no excecution in north korea, unless you count being starved to death because you or a family member disagrees with the government or owns a radio as excecution.

Nope. There is no death penality in NK.

From the forementioned article:

"We were struck by the design of the DPRK criminal justice system. We even found in a bookstore the Criminal Procedures Act of the DPRK in English. Several principles seem quite progressive and reflect more of restorative justice, than retributive justice. The prime objective of the criminal justice system is rehabilitation, not punishment, or setting an example. There is an element of the latter as there are jail terms for crimes but this is not the major thrust of their system. In fact, they have codified a process by which those affected by the decision or the conduct of the accused have a real role in the process and those that contributed to the delinquent act or were involved in educating the person (i.e. a parent or friend) have to be available in the process to receive a ?lecture? from the court. Penalties might include submitting the accused to ?social? or ?public education.? Those arrested are required to have their families notified within 48 hours. A defence counsel is to be provided to represent the rights of the accused.

"We were told that there was no death penalty and that the maximum penalty for any crime is 12 years, with the objective being to try to determine why the person committed the crime and to help that person become a productive member of society. A lack of a death penalty was seen by the delegation as a sign of a civilized nation. There appear to be labour camps where people work out their sentences. No effort was made to hide the presence of these camps. The U.S. media?s recent reports on the poor conditions, high mortality rate and lack of proper care or food, in the camps requires further investigation. In light of the false and exaggerated claims about starvation in the country in general, these reports must be viewed with a grain of salt. We will ask to visit these camps on future delegations.

Starvation? Nope, wrong again. The starving ended a year ago, and was caused almost entirely by natural factors, AMONG THE WORST IN RECENT HISTORY. Never mind the sanctions.... An interesting series of articles on the flood damage ALONE:

http://210.145.168.243/pk/flood_damage/category60.htm

Further, from the forementioned article from North American lawyers who have actually been to north Korea:

"Much is written about the alleged starvation, even referred to as intentional, of the North Korean people by their government. On our trips both North and South in the country we covered round trip over 500 kilometers. During that time we had the opportunity to see agricultural communities and small towns. We noticed that the people on the whole looked well dressed and active. We saw no one who looked malnourished or emaciated and our observations were confirmed by many of the foreigners we met who had dealings around the country. The DPRK has very little areable land and we saw crops being harvested everywhere it was possible to grow them. It appears every square inch of arable land is cultivated, and on the roofs of their country cottages people had planted vines of what looked like melons or pumpkin. The people we passed on the road and in towns we passed through all looked relaxed, children went to school or played, women sat side saddle on bikes as their husbands pedaled, no one seemed dispirited or broken.

"We noted that this was not the Orwellian society George Bush and much of the media is trying to portray. The countryside appeared to us to be more typical of the poorer part of Europe, for example rural Greece, or Spain or Portugal. Three members of the delegation who had experience in Africa noted that the country appeared much more prosperous that most places they had been in Africa. This was confirmed by the Congolese visitors we met, who indicated that people in many parts of the Congo would love to have the standard of living apparent in North Korea. The landscape, with its mountains in the background, and ravines, its trees, its rivers and arid parts, and houses with white walled, ochre tiled roofs was similar to southern parts of Europe.

"Another surprise was the absence of a police presence in the country. We never saw a single policeman with a gun or even a club. The only police we saw were police officers, mainly women, directing traffic at certain intersections. There were occasional guard stations along the road down south as we approached the DMZ. We saw soldiers in many places, usually helping harvest crops or working in the fields or helping on a construction site. But we rarely saw a soldier armed. The contrast between North Korea and its lack of policemen and North America in which armed police in bulletproof vests are commonplace was more than striking - it was startling. If the presence or absence of armed policemen is a criterion for a free society then this speaks volumes about the nature of the two societies."

That's your argument in the dust bin.

[epepke]

Oh, good! Since it's perfect, we don't have to worry about them starving any more. That's a relief.

[RussDill]

Originally posted by Huzington


Nope. There is no death penality in NK.

From the forementioned article:


These lawyers were shown what the north wanted them to see. Defectors and those who have done some work for the north paint an entirely different picture


Starvation? Nope, wrong again. The starving ended a year ago, and was caused almost entirely by natural factors, AMONG THE WORST IN RECENT HISTORY. Never mind the sanctions.... An interesting series of articles on the flood damage ALONE:


Together, the US and UN gave the north enough food to end starvation there. However, the government did not distribute food to any group of people that disagreed politically, similar to somolia. There is no reason for anyone to have starved in the north except for political brutality.


Further, from the forementioned article from North American lawyers who have actually been to north Korea:

That's your argument in the dust bin.


Again, its really easy to show a guided tour what you want them to see.

[Jocko]

Still waiting to hear about a North Korea-hosted website from you, comrade. I know lines of distribution can be a little muddled in the worker's paradise, but this is getting ridiculous.

[Jocko]

Okay, I got sick of waiting, so I hunted around for a website hosted in North Korea. No luck.

For instance, even www.dprk.com is hosted in Seoul.

inetnum: 210.207.36.192 - 210.207.36.255
netname: ETIZENCO-SEHYUNG-KR
descr: Etizen Co
descr: 705-17 Yeoksam-Dong Kangnam-Gu
descr: SEOUL
descr: 135-080
country: KR
admin-c: SY393-AP
tech-c: SY393-AP
mnt-by: MAINT-KR-DACOM
status: ASSIGNED NON-PORTABLE
remarks: imported from KRNIC
changed: hm-changed@apnic.net 20021023
source: APNIC

So again, comrade, I challenge you to point me to such a site. And don't tell me there isn't one because of evil American imperialism, because I know the internet was invented by Al Gore - who, like his mentor, would have kept paying off the North Koreans till doomsday if it kept them from actually coping with the issue.

So what's the score, Huz? Pretend you're defending Stalingrad and I'm a Panzer tank. Let's get that red attitude working already.

[Ed]

Originally posted by Jocko
So what's the score, Huz? Pretend you're defending Stalingrad and I'm a Panzer tank. Let's get that red attitude working already.

Like there is a snowballs chance in hell.

[Ralph]

Originally posted by Ralph
And what country do you live in Huzington?

What country do you live in?

[pupdog]

from geni:
Kim Il-sung's son, Kim Jong-il, is now head of state

You can expect bad things in any nation where a leader's son becomes leader.

[gaaaaaaaaarrrr]

communism: yay!

American capitalism: boo!

Is that pretty much the idea here?

[headscratcher4]

Starvation? Nope, wrong again. The starving ended a year ago, and was caused almost entirely by natural factors

I completely understand the futility of responding to a troll...or a credulouls fool...however, I go one round:

H:

You wrote the above quote. Interesting interpretation of events of the last several years. First, there is no indication that the "starving" is finished. Check the UN and World Food Program who remain very concerned about N. Korea.

However, the really interesting assersion here is that the failures of the food system were due to nature. It interests me because it is a unique phenomena...sort of like the thounder and lightening and earthquakes that accompanined Kim Jong Il's birth in Korea (when he was really born in Russia, but that's a different thread). I mean, the natural factors that caused this famine began exactly at the DMZ and ended at the Yaloo River. China did not report or experience years of crop failure, drought or famine in the provinces directly above North Korea (and, think of all those silly refuges, estimated in the hundreds of thousands by both China and the UN, who risked their lives to cross into China to avoid the famine if the Chinese had been lying -- along with indipendent journalists who have visited the area -- but, what the refugees found was food and a functioning agricultural economy).

Than, to the South of the DMZ, South Korea -- that horror of an imperialist and US dominated opressive state -- there was no famine either. THe farms in the region near to the north continued to function and produce. But, somehow, 15 miles away, just over the DMZ, the weather systems and nature collaped! Amazing. South Korea continued to function, even grow and flurish at exactly the time when the local weather systems just over the DMZ were targeting their god-like wrath on the peoples of the North. Yet, nary a one South Korean died of starvation.

Hmmm.......a truly frieghtening weather system was at work for the last 10 years in North Korea...I mean, as screwed up as we are in the West, I don't think we've ever experienced such selective nature and weather. When Montana has a drought, they feel it in Alberta and Saskatchawan, etc. When South Carolina has a drought, they feel it right over the boarder in North Carolina.

Given the selectiveness of nature in this instance, they don't need a death penalty in North Korea, nature will get anyone they find who falls short of the Juche ideal.

[Skeptic]

Starvation? Nope, wrong again. The starving ended a year ago, and was caused almost entirely by natural factors

Anybody else reminded of Monty Python?

"Dear Sirs: I must strongly speak against your unfair depiction of the Royal Navy as engaging in cannibalism. In fact in the last few years, we've had the problem fairly under control..."

[Jocko]

Just a quick bump to remind comrade Huzington that he owes me a website hosted in North Korea. I see him trolling about so I hope he'll take notice and quit hoping I'll stop taking notice.

[NightG1]

Originally posted by Huzington
A good article about people have been to blah blah blah
I ran Huzington's screen name through Google - that imperialist search engine - and it appears it has been a very busy little bee. For instance: does this look familiar to anyone? (http://pub179.ezboard.com/faxisofjusticefrm2.showMessage?topicID=8309.topic) .

Huzington appears to be spamming any political discussion fora it can find with the same borish cross posts. Must be depressing being 34, unemployed and living with your mom.

[RussDill]

Originally posted by NightG1

I ran Huzington's screen name through Google - that imperialist search engine - and it appears it has been a very busy little bee. For instance: does this look familiar to anyone? (http://pub179.ezboard.com/faxisofjusticefrm2.showMessage?topicID=8309.topic) .

Huzington appears to be spamming any political discussion fora it can find with the same borish cross posts. Must be depressing being 34, unemployed and living with your mom.

He probably plays bridge too.

[Jocko]

Bumping once more so see if Huzington is prepared to deliver on his boast. Rest assured I'm not holding my breath. Commies never put out when they promise to.

[davefoc]

Geni said:Fact: no website created and run in North Korea has ever been found.


Hunzinton said:According to US intelligence there are plenty of websites form NK, but they also add that their purpose is "propaganda". (When it is information from the imperialist nations, it is "news", "opinion", etc. When it is the same type of information from the enemies of the imperialist nations, it is "propaganda", "indoctrination", etc.) KCNA is one of many. There are many NK websites on the internet, including study groups and libraries of Kim Jong il's works. I can provide links if you want.


Jocko said:

Tellya what, brudder comrade, you point me to one website you say is hosted in the worker's paradise that is North Korea, and I will gladly post the traceroute that proves it, showing every server navigated between here and there.

I await your choice of website. Power to the people.

Jocko further said:So again, comrade, I challenge you to point me to such a site.

and yet more from jocko:

Just a quick bump to remind comrade Huzington that he owes me a website hosted in North Korea. I see him trolling about so I hope he'll take notice and quit hoping I'll stop taking notice.

and finally this from jocko:Bumping once more so see if Huzington is prepared to deliver on his boast. Rest assured I'm not holding my breath. Commies never put out when they promise to.

Huzington,
Hmm, is it possible that you were mistaken and that in fact there are no web sites that originate in NK? Is it possible that your style is to just ignore facts if they happen to get in the way of your ideas?

Perhaps you don't ignore all facts that conflict with your ideas. Perhaps you might spend a little time and explain to us what the "natural causes" are of NK's famine and how the neighboring countries were spared from the effects of these "natural causes" as headscratcher4 asked.

[Jocko]

Originally posted by davefoc

Huzington,
Hmm, is it possible that you were mistaken and that in fact there are no web sites that originate in NK? Is it possible that your style is to just ignore facts if they happen to get in the way of your ideas?

Perhaps you don't ignore all facts that conflict with your ideas. Perhaps you might spend a little time and explain to us what the "natural causes" are of NK's famine and how the neighboring countries were spared from the effects of these "natural causes" as headscratcher4 asked.

You're giving the little red turd much more credit than he's due. Asking him to explain the ecosystem is a fool's errand, when he can't even provide the 20 or so characters needed to prove that "many North Korean websites exist." You're likely to get the negative equivalents of the rainbows and earthquakes and fairies farting sugarplums that accompanied Kim Jong Il's birth.... supposedly.

Maybe these exist on Planet Huzington, along with North Korean websites, but not here.

[Jocko]

Bump.

Still waiting, comrade.

[headscratcher4]

Originally posted by Skeptic
Starvation? Nope, wrong again. The starving ended a year ago, and was caused almost entirely by natural factors

Anybody else reminded of Monty Python?

"Dear Sirs: I must strongly speak against your unfair depiction of the Royal Navy as engaging in cannibalism. In fact in the last few years, we've had the problem fairly under control..."

:D

You hit it right on the head. That is exactly where I would point H.

Indeed, my memory of the line includes something along this line:

"when I say there is no canabalism in the British Navy, I mean there is some...quite a lot really...."

[Jocko]

Bump. Remember me, comrade?