Are Ainue white or oriental?

[Cainkane1]

Ainu unmixed with Japanese look white to me.

[Silly Green Monkey]

Can't be, the Japanese declared that there were no non-Japanese minorities native to Japan.

[blutoski]

Ainu unmixed with Japanese look white to me.

Why couldn't they be Ainu?

[Bikewer]

The Wiki article seems pretty detailed:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ainu_people

Genetic testing does not seem to indicate any Caucasian ancestry.

[Dancing David]

Just as the Khe-San look 'caucasian'.

[SatanicSheep]

Both the terms white and oriental are fairly meaningless.

An Ainu albino could reside in a city west of Boulder, Colorado and identify himself as 99%Nipponese with a smattering of Sarrasen and a Hmong nationalist and you would find it difficult to argue with him that he wasn't right....

[BenBurch]

They are Human. That is the only "race" that has any scientific validity since the Neanderthal race died out.

[quixotecoyote]

Both the terms white and oriental are fairly meaningless.

An Ainu albino could reside in a city west of Boulder, Colorado and identify himself as 99%Nipponese with a smattering of Sarrasen and a Hmong nationalist and you would find it difficult to argue with him that he wasn't right....


Funny you should mention that. One of my students recently did a project on her Hmong ethnicity. I wasn't even aware they existed until then.

[Cainkane1]

They are Human. That is the only "race" that has any scientific validity since the Neanderthal race died out.
Who can say that the neanderthals weren't human? My thread wasn't intended to be racist. My girlfriend is Ainu and although shes got the beautiful oriental gold skin her eyes are round.. Her hair is curlyish and overall Hiroko is a foxy exotic lady. I can't wait to make it legal.

[BenBurch]

Well, they WERE human, but of a different race. Now there is only the one left. Not that there are not morphological differences, but its like the difference between red Dachshunds, and black and tan dachshunds - you can see it, but they fully interbreed and have offspring of all of the various types, and there is no difference whatsoever in intelligence of temperament or etc.

Homo Sapiens Sapiens to Homo Neanderthalis is more like dogs to coyotes. They CAN interbreed, but usually will not, and there are significant differences in morphology and behavior.

[BenBurch]

and I didn't mean to imply racism; Just saying the concept is flawed.

[kerikiwi]

If they are white(sic) and live in the orient, they are clearly white orientals.
Simple really.

[jasonpatterson]

Well, they WERE human, but of a different race. Now there is only the one left.

What about Bigfoot? Surely you wouldn't classify it as non-human... ;)

[Juniversal]

Well, they WERE human, but of a different race. Now there is only the one left. Not that there are not morphological differences, but its like the difference between red Dachshunds, and black and tan dachshunds - you can see it, but they fully interbreed and have offspring of all of the various types, and there is no difference whatsoever in intelligence of temperament or etc.

Homo Sapiens Sapiens to Homo Neanderthalis is more like dogs to coyotes. They CAN interbreed, but usually will not, and there are significant differences in morphology and behavior.Exactly. If you want to use an analogous term for human populations in regards to dog breeds then i'd say we are all mutts. There's WAY too much variation and mixture (with different Ethnicities and nationalities) within populations to ever believe there's a non-arbitrary manner to define race or a discrete line of demarcation within human populations imo.

[Morrigan]

They are Human. That is the only "race" that has any scientific validity since the Neanderthal race died out.

No. You are confusing race/ethnicity with species and sub-species. Ainu and Japanese are two different ethnicities, but of the same Homo species.

[Andrew Wiggin]

The ainu are human. They're an interesting cultural group, the aboriginal population of the japanese islands, and an opressed minority similar to the aboriginal population of the US. As for them being a racial group, race is fast becoming an obsolete concept. I've read some research reports suggesting that geographically isolated populations have common genetic markers, and if there's a shared culture and set of physical characteristics amongst that population then there's a correlation between self described race and genetic markers. That doesn't at all imply that race is a valid scientific concept, but more that we are all one species with enough variation in things like melanin levels and hair follicle structure. Given that these characteristics became markers for culture and geographic location, and that modern transportation is moving people around the globe in ever increasing numbers, I expect we'll see a lot less variation. My wife says 'all this crap would go away if everyone would just get together and 'copulate' till we're all the same color'. Since my ancestors basically did that, I wholeheartedly approve. (swiss german english french middle eastern american indian here. I've got ancestors on the Mayflower and on the declaration of independence, but also folks who got off the boat a generation ago. I put 'white' on the census but I've got an awful lot of melanin by racist standards. I always look like I've got a really nice tan, thought I've been working night shift for years and rarely see sunlight)

A.

[Juniversal]

The ainu are human. They're an interesting cultural group, the aboriginal population of the japanese islands, and an opressed minority similar to the aboriginal population of the US. As for them being a racial group, race is fast becoming an obsolete concept. I've read some research reports suggesting that geographically isolated populations have common genetic markers, and if there's a shared culture and set of physical characteristics amongst that population then there's a correlation between self described race and genetic markers. That doesn't at all imply that race is a valid scientific concept, but more that we are all one species with enough variation in things like melanin levels and hair follicle structure. Given that these characteristics became markers for culture and geographic location, and that modern transportation is moving people around the globe in ever increasing numbers, I expect we'll see a lot less variation. My wife says 'all this crap would go away if everyone would just get together and 'copulate' till we're all the same color'. Since my ancestors basically did that, I wholeheartedly approve. (swiss german english french middle eastern american indian here. I've got ancestors on the Mayflower and on the declaration of independence, but also folks who got off the boat a generation ago. I put 'white' on the census but I've got an awful lot of melanin by racist standards. I always look like I've got a really nice tan, thought I've been working night shift for years and rarely see sunlight)

A.I'm black but know for a fact I have some white ancestry (not unusual for African-Americans) and i'm darker skinned. Growing up with white and black friends I always was intrigued by the sillyness of racism and its source. It's a fruitless and pointless battle to "fight" diversity. But I do feel humans beings are innately xenophobic/territorial. In my eyes its simply a mechanism for protecting limited resources against competitors. After all, we are animals. Intelligent as we may be.

That xenophobia can be manifested in phenomenon like racism though. After reading books like the Third Chimpanzee and hearing tales of how certain New Guinean Tribes would war and have many terrible myths about the neighboring tribe (even though outwardledy they would be considered the same "race" by the archaic classification system), how Japanese can hate Koreans or vice versa, and the Nazi genocide it became clear to me it's not a matter of outward difference AS MUCH as it's a modified version of Tribe vs. Tribe (in the battle for resources). Racism being a xenophobic defense mechanism to fend of the neighboring tribe's vie for "your" resources.

In the context of history this is the most human populations have ever had contact with other populations (just in the last few hundred years the advancement in transportation has paid dividends in terms of allowing intermingling) and right now we're experiencing the xenophobic shock and the back draft of the contact imo. I feel that once we REALLY intermingle, xenophobic tendencies like racism will be greatly minimized. It might take many generations but it's unavoidable (there's only so much space on this earth).

Sorry about my slighty off topic treatise but i'm passionate about these things. ;)

[gtc]

Homo Sapiens Sapiens to Homo Neanderthalis is more like dogs to coyotes. They CAN interbreed, but usually will not, and there are significant differences in morphology and behavior.

I wasn't aware that they had shown that we could have interbred with the Neanderthals.

Got a link to the research?

[BenBurch]

I wasn't aware that they had shown that we could have interbred with the Neanderthals.

Got a link to the research?

http://www.livescience.com/health/061030_neanderthal_hybrid.html

Speculation of course. And it was possibly a rare event given the recent mitochondrial DNA obtained from Neanderthal bones. (A very small sample size, so take that into account.)

[Morrigan]

The ainu are human.
Um... was anyone disputing that very obvious fact? :boggled:

[BenBurch]

No. You are confusing race/ethnicity with species and sub-species. Ainu and Japanese are two different ethnicities, but of the same Homo species.

The chimera we call "Race" isn't EVEN sub-species. It is no more than the difference between black and tan dachshunds and red ones. There may have been sub-species of Homo Sapiens Sapiens at one time, but there are not any now.

[gtc]

http://www.livescience.com/health/061030_neanderthal_hybrid.html

Speculation of course. And it was possibly a rare event given the recent mitochondrial DNA obtained from Neanderthal bones. (A very small sample size, so take that into account.)

Thanks.

[Andrew Wiggin]

Um... was anyone disputing that very obvious fact? :boggled:

Depending on your conception of race, with some of the folks I've been exposed to considering it to be ALMOST a species distinction, and my own opinion being completely at the other end of the spectrum, that it's a social construct based on regional variation of phenotype with no scientific validity, it seemed the best place to put the Ainu. Doesn't matter to me what color you are. You're human.

A.

[Andrew Wiggin]

I wasn't aware that they had shown that we could have interbred with the Neanderthals.

Got a link to the research?

I think this one footnotes to Jean Auel, Clan of the Cave Bear, some page near the end where Ayla gets pregnant after being raped. Not sure this is actually a question we can answer, outside of some very entertaining works of speculative anthropology.

A

[Morrigan]

The chimera we call "Race" isn't EVEN sub-species. It is no more than the difference between black and tan dachshunds and red ones. There may have been sub-species of Homo Sapiens Sapiens at one time, but there are not any now.

You didn't read my post, I take it? I was not saying that race was on the same level as sub-species. In fact, I was saying the exact opposite. To say "there's only one race, the human race", is not accurate; "There's only one human sub-species, the Homo sapiens sapiens one", would be more accurate. Within the same sub-species, though, there can be different races. Just like, as you said, there are different races of dogs. A chihuaha, a Great Dane are both dogs (Canis lupus), though of different races. An Ainu and a Khoisan are both human (Homo sapiens), though of different races.

The difference with dogs is that they also have different sub-species (such as wolves (canis lupus lupus), domestic dogs, (canis lupus familiaris -- which include both the chihuahua and the Great Dane), etc. whereas in humans, there is only one sub-species around. :)

[dropzone]

http://www.livescience.com/health/061030_neanderthal_hybrid.html

Speculation of course. And it was possibly a rare event given the recent mitochondrial DNA obtained from Neanderthal bones. (A very small sample size, so take that into account.)Rule of thumb for Homo sapiens sapiens and, I assume, Homo sapiens neanderthalis: Guys, and girls, are likely to have relations with whoever they can. The Neanderthals are rather rugged and "cool ugly?" Still works today. For women, the choices are legion. For nerdy guys, I present Ms Claudia Black. (http://www.sliceofscifi.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/07/claudia-black-1.jpg) Not a classic beauty, but her features still work.

Just a comment, Mine Wife was an XRay tech and was presented with a patient needing skull Xrays, which were largely consistent with a Neanderthal (but cute) skull. She regrets that the young lady did not injure her pelvis, as external observation and said Xrays would say she was enough Neanderthal to merit interest.

[kitakaze]

I don't know how that "e" got into "Ainu" but in any event, I can appreciate the question in the OP but wonder why such questions are asked when they are so easily answered on one's own. I can't complain about a learning opportunity, though. Check the link Bikewer gave you, Cainkane1. Ainu are connected to the native Jomon people of Japan. The Jomon culture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C5%8Dmon_period) is what I think of as being one of the interesting and mysterious periods of Japanese ancient history. You can think of Ainu on genetic terms as being basically similar to Tibetans.

[dafydd]

Who cares?

[kitakaze]

Who cares?

People that are interested in the Ainu. Caincane1 cares. People that want to understand their origins care. It's fascinating. They're a beautiful, disappearing culture.

[kitakaze]

The faces of the people we are talking about...

Who cares about her people?

http://images3.jlist.com/f6/ainu_tattooed_moustache.jpg

Or hers:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_DV5Or7cP_Sc/R7pF2h1GooI/AAAAAAAAAmM/kNcUme8UY5Y/s400/ainu_girl.jpg

What stories could he have told?

http://timesonline.typepad.com/faith/images/2008/06/09/_44718776_ainuman2_other226.jpg

What was their experience like?

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_AuK6003qDZ0/Sd1WBruqCoI/AAAAAAAAASs/JLCmS2_Rjuk/s400/ainu.jpg

Who cares where they came from or who they were and are now?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d7/AinuGroup.JPG/800px-AinuGroup.JPG

Who cares?

I do.

[Undesired Walrus]

Her hair is curlyish and overall Hiroko is a foxy exotic lady. I can't wait to make it legal.

She's not yet 16?

[Undesired Walrus]

If they are white(sic) and live in the orient, they are clearly white orientals.
Simple really.

This doesn't make much sense. Is a light skinned African American a white black? Is a very dark Indian a black Asian?

[orange31]

I'm black but know for a fact I have some white ancestry (not unusual for African-Americans)...

I read an article a few years back, some genetic studies and historical archives research on the east coast, concentrating on the late 1600s to around 1800.

During that time period, especially in the early 1700s, there were large numbers of european/celtic whites who were indentured servants, and pretty much lived/worked with african slaves, and intermarried. This was before the 1800s, where slavery diminished on the east coast but got 'industrialized' in the south.

There's pretty good evidence that most of the 'white' in african americans comes from the above history, and very little from slave owners doing the harem thing.

-----

Also, ancient Israelis who ended up in Africa-
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/israel/familylemba.html

posted as an example of how 'race' is a meaningless term scientifically.
-------------
Regarding Ainue, they preceeded most Japanese on the islands by thousands of years, the latter coming from the Korean peninsula as recently as 5000 years ago.

[Juniversal]

I read an article a few years back, some genetic studies and historical archives research on the east coast, concentrating on the late 1600s to around 1800.

During that time period, especially in the early 1700s, there were large numbers of european/celtic whites who were indentured servants, and pretty much lived/worked with african slaves, and intermarried. This was before the 1800s, where slavery diminished on the east coast but got 'industrialized' in the south.

There's pretty good evidence that most of the 'white' in african americans comes from the above history, and very little from slave owners doing the harem thing.

-----

Also, ancient Israelis who ended up in Africa-
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/israel/familylemba.html

posted as an example of how 'race' is a meaningless term scientifically.
-------------
Regarding Ainue, they preceeded most Japanese on the islands by thousands of years, the latter coming from the Korean peninsula as recently as 5000 years ago.Very interesting. I always found it funny how someone with (for example) African, Native-American and European ancestory can be considered to be a member of the same so-called "race" as someone who's ancestory is indigenous to Africa. I'm interested to see the conclusions that'll be made in national Geographic's the human family tree special in terms of genetics and gene distribution.

[Damien Evans]

Rule of thumb for Homo sapiens sapiens and, I assume, Homo neanderthalis: Guys, and girls, are likely to have relations with whoever they can. The Neanderthals are rather rugged and "cool ugly?" Still works today. For women, the choices are legion. For nerdy guys, I present Ms Claudia Black. (http://www.sliceofscifi.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/07/claudia-black-1.jpg) Not a classic beauty, but her features still work.

Just a comment, Mine Wife was an XRay tech and was presented with a patient needing skull Xrays, which were largely consistent with a Neanderthal (but cute) skull. She regrets that the young lady did not injure her pelvis, as external observation and said Xrays would say she was enough Neanderthal to merit interest.

Fixed that for you. H.Neanderthalis was not the same species as H.Sapiens.