Another 'war' in Gaza

[Doctor Evil]

Since nobody have started a thread about this, I will.

In the last few years, some small Al Qaeda affiliated groups have appeared in Gaza. Initially, they got along well with Hamas. Now they are fighting each other.

The tensions between the groups and Hamas have risen sharply following the last war between Hamas and Israel. As a result of that war, Hamas have stopped shooting rockets and mortars into Israel. In some instances, it also prevented other groups from shooting rockets. This was unpopular with the Al Qaeda affiliated groups, which do not accept the concept of a cease fire, even temporary. (Hamas is interested in keeping the quiet for a while, to stabilize its hold on the strip, and to get hold of longer range rockets.)

On Friday night, it all blew apart (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8202746.stm)


The leader of a radical Islamist group involved in a shootout with Hamas in Gaza is one of at least 24 people killed in the raid, reports say. Abdul-Latif Moussa died in an explosion, officials said, but it was not clear whether he blew himself up.
On Friday Hamas, which controls Gaza, launched a bloody crackdown on the group, Jund Ansar Allah, after it declared an "Islamic emirate"

The group then declared war (http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3762223,00.html)on Hamas
In a message posted by al-Qaeda's websites the Islamic Swords of Justice, a group affiliated with the Salafi movement, vowed to avenge the deaths. "We tell our people who witnessed this crime that this is not over, and war is on its way," the message said.


The group warned residents of the Gaza Strip to stay away from government ministries and Hamas security offices.


"We call on our people to stay away from mosques attended by leaders of the infidels Ismail Haniyeh and the ministers and legislators of his government, who legislate against the will of Allah," the message added.

In reality, this extremist group is too small to be a rival to Hamas.

[gtc]

Yep (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/egypt/6031613/Six-die-as-Hamas-police-storm-mosque-in-Gaza.html).

One side or the other critically injured a 3 year old Egyptian caught by a bullet that strayed across the border. Hamas dynamited the house of one of their leaders.

Hamas seem to be blaming Israel (naturally).

At the same time, Hamas premier Ismail Haniya denied that the group exists.

"No such groups exist on the ground in Gaza," he said at prayers in the northern Gaza town of Beit Lahiya. He blamed the "Israeli media for spreading this information with a view to turning the world against Gaza."

[The Fool]

ummm....someone is attacking people affiliated with Al qaeda. Shouldn't we like that?

[gtc]

No.

You can do better than suggesting that we should be supporting a terrorist organisation like Hamas.

[Architect]

I am minded for the Pratchett quote about "The Scots fighting their age-old enemies, the Scots".

[The Fool]

No.

You can do better than suggesting that we should be supporting a terrorist organisation like Hamas.

If we ask them to control terrorists in Gaza what should we do if they attack some? Shouldn't we be saying well done, go attack some more?

[ddt]

No.

You can do better than suggesting that we should be supporting a terrorist organisation like Hamas.

And I think The Fool only said he liked it, not anything about supporting Hamas. I don't know what's there not to like about it, especially when you have a pro-Israel stance. AQ group eliminated, Hamas spends it efforts on that, and not on throwing missiles at Israel, developing better missiles or on bullying the average Joe in Gaza. Win-win-win, I'd say.

[Marc39]

If we ask them to control terrorists in Gaza what should we do if they attack some? Shouldn't we be saying well done, go attack some more?

Terrorists controlling terrorists? I suppose I could get behind this if I knew it would result in self-immolation. However, what is being played out is an Islamic power struggle, fueled by Iran, for dominance over the region and for global jihad resulting in their perverse vision for the eventual creation of a worldwide caliphate.

[dudalb]

I am minded for the Pratchett quote about "The Scots fighting their age-old enemies, the Scots".


More like Two Mafia families fighting because one is trying to muscle in on the other's territory....

[Tailgater]

So, when do we start arming the losing side?

[FireGarden]

Since nobody have started a thread about this, I will.

Are we damned if we do, damned if we don't on this subject?

In the last few years, some small Al Qaeda affiliated groups have appeared in Gaza. Initially, they got along well with Hamas.

Do you have a source for that?
Your own link in the OP says:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/8202746.stm

Hamas has cracked down hard on al-Qaeda-inspired groups in the past, the BBC's Middle East correspondent Katya Adler says.

BBC, 2006: Hamas rejects al-Qaeda's support
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4776578.stm

YNET, 2007: Al-Qaeda: Hamas betrayed God
Terror group says it cannot 'keep silent' over Hamas path 'which will lead to hell'
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3396525,00.html

The tensions between the groups and Hamas have risen sharply following the last war between Hamas and Israel. As a result of that war, Hamas have stopped shooting rockets and mortars into Israel. In some instances, it also prevented other groups from shooting rockets.

They also did that in the previous ceasefire, when they arrested members of the Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade -- Fatah's armed wing.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1000881.html

Hamas arrested three Palestinians who fired rockets into Israel from the Gaza Strip on Thursday, a militant faction said, in the first such detentions since the Islamist group and Israel agreed on a cease-fire last month.

Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, a militant offshoot of President Mahmoud Abbas' Fatah faction, said Hamas men pursued its members after the attack and "abducted them" in Jabalya refugee camp.

In reality, this extremist group is too small to be a rival to Hamas.

Things have a habit of getting worse when no-one allows them to get better. At the moment, Israel has recieved offers of long term truces with Hamas in return for a 2-state solution. Here's one from 2006:
http://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/04/04/mideast/index.html

In a letter to U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan, Mahmoud Zahar even mentioned the possibility of a "two-state" solution in which Palestinians have "freedom and independence side by side with our neighbors" -- despite Hamas' long-standing vow to eradicate Israel.

But heck, no, let's wait and see how many attempted coups Hamas can survive. Then we can not talk to whichever extremist group finally defeats Hamas.

[Doctor Evil]

Are we damned if we do, damned if we don't on this subject?

Huh, what is that supposed to mean? Who are these 'we' you refer to?


Do you have a source for that?
Your own link in the OP says:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/8202746.stm



BBC, 2006: Hamas rejects al-Qaeda's support
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4776578.stm

YNET, 2007: Al-Qaeda: Hamas betrayed God
Terror group says it cannot 'keep silent' over Hamas path 'which will lead to hell'
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3396525,00.html


Yes, I do (http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1107735.html):
In practice, the factions have smuggled weapons into the Strip and held training camps in the ruins of Gush Katif. In some cases, Hamas continued to use the Al-Qaida affiliated operatives for its aims. For example, they carried out the bombing of the shop belonging to the nephew of Fatah leader and former Gaza Strip strongman Mohammed Dahlan in Gaza City last month, injuring dozens. According to reports from the Strip, Hamas commanders have reached local alliances with the heads of the extremists.
Note that my claim was that Hamas got along well with the extremist groups in Gaza. Not that they wanted official support from the heads of Al Qaeda.


They also did that in the previous ceasefire, when they arrested members of the Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade -- Fatah's armed wing.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1000881.html

Which is a political rival. Did they arrest anyone from Islamic Jihad? In any case, rocket fire never stopped completely during that ceasefire. It has stopped now. It seems they are much more serious regarding a cease fire at this time.



Things have a habit of getting worse when no-one allows them to get better. At the moment, Israel has recieved offers of long term truces with Hamas in return for a 2-state solution. Here's one from 2006:
http://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/04/04/mideast/index.html



But heck, no, let's wait and see how many attempted coups Hamas can survive. Then we can not talk to whichever extremist group finally defeats Hamas.

Oh please.

Hamas position is that if several condition will be fulfilled they will accept a limited time cease fire, or hudna. The condition include a complete Israeli withdrawal to the 1967 borders and the return of all Palestinian refugees to Israel. This is a non starter. First, they go beyond what an Israeli government can give in a final peace deal, and what Hamas are offering is not peace. Secondly, the insistence of a cease fire and not peace just shows that the long range goals of Hamas stay as they always were, namely the destruction of Israel.

If Hamas want to end its political isolation, it just needs to agree to the conditions that the international community has set.
1. Renounce the use of violence
2. Recognise Israel.
3. Recognise previous agreements.

These are very basic conditions. I believe that the conditions put towards Shin Fein, for instance, were more harsh. After all no one talks about Hamas disarming itself before talks.

[Pardalis]

Al Qaeda in Gaza, I don't like the sound of that. They're even more irrational and unpredictable than Hamas. At least Hamas' goals are clear, AQ just want chaos.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

If AQ and Hamas were to throw the gloves down and go after each other, I'd consider donating to both of them. ;)

[Architect]

So, when do we start arming the losing side?

Only once we've sold everything we can to the winning side.

[Marc39]

Israel has recieved offers of long term truces with Hamas in return for a 2-state solution.

Hudnas, advocated by the Qur'an for the strategic purpose of re-arming and returning to war in order to vanquish the infidel (Israel), are unacceptable.

If you believe otherwise, I have land in Yemen I'd like to sell you.

[The Fool]

Hudnas, advocated by the Qur'an for the strategic purpose of re-arming and returning to war in order to vanquish the infidel (Israel), are unacceptable.

If you believe otherwise, I have land in Yemen I'd like to sell you.

You are irrelevant to any discussion of solutions.Your solution is no different to that proposed by the nutjobs extremist in Hamas....Leave or die.

oops, sorry I probably am being unfair on you....There is another option. Leave, remain on Israeli land as untermenchen or die. Although to be fair you only recently added the stay as untermenchen option when it became impossible even for you to continue the line that you bere not advocating ethnic cleansing or worse.... and we have not heard any details from you of how a modern democracy is going to have an underclass of non citizens resident within its borders. Remember they are genetically unsuitable so they would "destroy" israel by simply becoming citizens in a modern democracy. No, your particular vision of modern democracy allows for a subclass of genetically unsuitable people.

Carry on Marc39. One day you may start discussing acceptable solutions and become relevant.

[Darth Rotor]

ummm....someone is attacking people affiliated with Al qaeda. Shouldn't we like that?
I do.

[Almo]

Terrorists controlling terrorists? I suppose I could get behind this if I knew it would result in self-immolation. However, what is being played out is an Islamic power struggle, fueled by Iran, for dominance over the region and for global jihad resulting in their perverse vision for the eventual creation of a worldwide caliphate.

At some point, Sinn Fein made the transition from terrorism to politics. Hamas will do the same. This is a step in that direction.

[Marc39]

Popcorn, peanuts, Cracker Jacks...

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=a6MvijtQo1Nk

[FireGarden]

Yes, I do (http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1107735.html):

That's interesting.
I wonder what was so special about that group.

Reuters lists some groups, many of which Hamas has fought with.
http://www.reuters.com/article/featuredCrisis/idUSLH515758


The guy leading this particular group has been a critic of Hamas for some time:
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1249418612530&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

Sheikh Abdel Latif Mousa, the founder and leader of Jund Ansar Allah who was killed on Saturday in Rafah, was considered one of the most influential preachers in the southern Gaza Strip, where his Friday sermons attracted thousands of young men.

He became so popular that his followers urged him to declare himself the ruler of an Islamic emirate in the entire Strip. Mousa's main argument was that Hamas had become too lenient and moderate.

About two years ago he abandoned the private medical clinic he ran in Rafah to devote all his time to spreading his anti-Hamas message and recruiting more followers.

Declaring an emirate was crossing a line, it seems.


Which is a political rival. Did they arrest anyone from Islamic Jihad?

I don't know. They fought with Islamic Jihad, shortly after they took control of Gaza, according to the Reuters link above.

Oh please.

Please, indeed.
Conditions in Gaza are producing more and more extremism. How much longer does this go on?

[Darth Rotor]

Popcorn, peanuts, Cracker Jacks...

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=a6MvijtQo1Nk

Aug. 15 (Bloomberg) -- Hamas forces that rule the Gaza Strip clashed with gunmen from an al-Qaeda inspired group in fighting that left 22 dead and 120 wounded, hospital and Hamas officials said.

Six civilians, including two children, and six Hamas security officers were among those killed, Ihab al-Ghussein, a spokesman for the Hamas Interior ministry said in a statement. Fighting ended at around noon local time, the ministry said.
Obviously, Hamas was deliberately targeting children. :cool:
Before the clashes broke out yesterday, Hamas leader Ismael Haniya denied Israeli reports that radical Islamic militant groups were setting up operations in Gaza.

“No foreign fanatic organizations that act against the Americans are in the Gaza Strip,” Haniya told worshippers during prayers at a mosque in northern Gaza. He said Israel was spreading rumors to isolate the Hamas-controlled strip.
Well, there weren't any until Hamas started having armed clashes with them.

Lovely.

DR

[Doctor Evil]

Declaring an emirate was crossing a line, it seems.


It was. It seems that as long as these groups were not seen as rivals Hamas was willing to let them keep their arms and even cooperate with them here and there. In contrast, Hamas' take over of the strip was all about disarming its main rival, Fatah. Now we see that if a group is having enough power, or advocating a policy which goes against Hamas interests, they will disarm these too.


Conditions in Gaza are producing more and more extremism. How much longer does this go on?

The conditions do play a role. But I suspect that improving them will not solve the problem. There are other factors at play, such as the high social value given for martyrdom. Kids which grew up with this message all their lives are now reaching maturity. This will produce more than enough extremists for years to come. In fact, there is some irony in that. Hamas had to moderate somewhat its behavior due to the fact that it rules Gaza, and the same social forces which made Hamas more popular than Fatah are now leading to the creation of even more extremist groups. Hamas has the power and the will to use it and so I would expect that it will keep these groups under control for the next few years. On a longer time scale, who knows?

[FireGarden]

It was. It seems that as long as these groups were not seen as rivals Hamas was willing to let them keep their arms and even cooperate with them here and there.

This particular group was never friendly with Hamas -- at least as far as I can find, eg: the Jerusalem Post article.

The thing is, what does it cost to take them out? When does this cost get outstripped by the cost of leaving them alone? Believe it or not, Hamas needs to sell their intervention to the people of Gaza -- after all, it had a cost. The declaration of the "Gaza Emirate" gives Hamas a way to justify intervention.

What was Hamas supposed to do? Use the group's cavalry charge against an Israeli army base as their reason to take the group out? You may wish that, but such an action (I reckon) is beyond Hamas' political power.

There are plenty of things to criticise Hamas for. Choosing this story seems to be grasping at straws.

Hamas has the power and the will to use it and so I would expect that it will keep these groups under control for the next few years. On a longer time scale, who knows?

Well, exactly: who knows?
The clock is ticking. Even Fatah is trying to look tougher because they can't point to enough negotiated successes. If Obama wants to solve this before all hell breaks loose, then he doesn't seem to be hurrying.

[Doctor Evil]

This particular group was never friendly with Hamas -- at least as far as I can find, eg: the Jerusalem Post article.

The thing is, what does it cost to take them out? When does this cost get outstripped by the cost of leaving them alone? Believe it or not, Hamas needs to sell their intervention to the people of Gaza -- after all, it had a cost. The declaration of the "Gaza Emirate" gives Hamas a way to justify intervention.

What was Hamas supposed to do? Use the group's cavalry charge against an Israeli army base as their reason to take the group out? You may wish that, but such an action (I reckon) is beyond Hamas' political power.

I acknowledge that Hamas had to consider all that. I also happen to think that Hamas' control of Gaza is a huge barrier to political attempts of solving the P/I issue. Anyway, a discussion on that is probably best left out for another thread.


There are plenty of things to criticise Hamas for. Choosing this story seems to be grasping at straws.

Umm, I think you had a very basic misconception regarding the reason I had for starting this thread.I had no intention of either praising, or criticizing Hamas. Rather I wanted to bring a piece of news which was interesting, and could be indicative of long range trends.

In fact, I find most of the P/I threads to either start or almost immediately become just an avenue for feeling good by virtue of blaming "the other side" for everything. As a result, most of these are absolutely useless. I would not want to add one more to the list. In fact, I had a good idea for an analysis of the current US administration opening moves on the Arab-Israeli front, and decided not to create a thread as I feared it will be a wasted effort. (Failure on many levels, if you are curious.)

[Marc39]

[quote] Please, indeed.
Conditions in Gaza are producing more and more extremism. How much longer does this go on?

Ding ding ding ing. You just won the Blame It On The Jews contest. Congratulatons. The Mossad is behind al-Qaeda, but, sshhh, don't tell anyone.

Conditions are bad in Gaza because the savages destroyed the greenhouses that Jews paid tens of millions of dollars for and then gifted to them. The conditions are bad because their government is at war with Israel. The conditions are bad because they refuse to renounce terrorism and let Israelis live in peace.

[Darth Rotor]

If Obama wants to solve this before all hell breaks loose, then he doesn't seem to be hurrying.
Maybe this wasn't Obama's problem to solve. Maybe this is Hamas growing up and realizing that once you are in charge, your behavior changes, and it has to. If you spend too much time as the foaming at the mouth opposition, the change may be slow, or not take place at all. I've seen mention in this thread that Hamas is possibly open to negotiations. What a nice change from a couple of years ago, if true.

Why do you demand that Obama solve this problem, and quickly? He's got his own cats to herd at the moment. Time is something that apparently the Pals played to their advantage for a while, and now there is a hurry?

The solution won't come from without, it will come from within. I see this as a golden opportunity for Obama/US and Hamas to find something in common: "You don't like Al Qaeda, we don't like Al Qaeda. We have that in common, where else can we find common cause?"

DR

[gtc]

Conditions in Gaza are producing more and more extremism. How much longer does this go on?

And Hamas' actions aren't contributing to conditions in Gaza?

Hamas is an extremist organisation. They aren't moderates and it speaks badly of your belifs if you think they are moderates.

[gtc]

I've seen mention in this thread that Hamas is possibly open to negotiations. What a nice change from a couple of years ago, if true.

It would be a nice change, but I'd like to see some evidence.

Why do you demand that Obama solve this problem, and quickly? He's got his own cats to herd at the moment.

Its the same old story. The people who demand that Obama steps in and solves this NOW are the same people who complain about any and every instance of US intervention.

[GreyICE]

Maybe this wasn't Obama's problem to solve. Maybe this is Hamas growing up and realizing that once you are in charge, your behavior changes, and it has to. If you spend too much time as the foaming at the mouth opposition, the change may be slow, or not take place at all. I've seen mention in this thread that Hamas is possibly open to negotiations. What a nice change from a couple of years ago, if true.

Why do you demand that Obama solve this problem, and quickly? He's got his own cats to herd at the moment. Time is something that apparently the Pals played to their advantage for a while, and now there is a hurry?

The solution won't come from without, it will come from within. I see this as a golden opportunity for Obama/US and Hamas to find something in common: "You don't like Al Qaeda, we don't like Al Qaeda. We have that in common, where else can we find common cause?"

DR

Why is it the United States problem? An unsavory government, an even more unsavory government, and a terrorist organization are putting holes in each other. This one isn't even involving Israel much, and they're the only ones we really have the right/ability to criticize and/or pressure (for 100 billion dollars, they better damn well listen to us when we make suggestions).

[Marc39]

Why is it the United States problem? An unsavory government, an even more unsavory government, and a terrorist organization are putting holes in each other. This one isn't even involving Israel much, and they're the only ones we really have the right/ability to criticize and/or pressure (for 100 billion dollars, they better damn well listen to us when we make suggestions).

I don't see Egypt, which receives billions in US foreign aid, "better damn well listening" to the US about instituting democratic principles and recognizing basic human rights. And, Egypt gives the US very little in return whereas Israel returns an incalculable amount.

[Darth Rotor]

And, Egypt gives the US very little in return whereas Israel returns an incalculable amount.
Care to be a little less vague?

[Marc39]

Care to be a little less vague?


Since 1967, Israel has given to the Pentagon Soviet military equipment captured in conflicts with Soviet-supported Arab countries, providing important data. Israel gave the US a full squadron of MiG-21s which was called the “Top Gun” squadron and used by the U.S. Air Force and Navy for training purposes.

In 1970, Israel forced the withdrawal of the Syrian army from US-ally Jordan while the U.S. was involved militarily in Vietnam, Laos, and Cambodia, helping to prevent the collapse of a pro-American government and the installation of a pro-Soviet regime.

In the 1973 War, Israel defeated Soviet-trained and equipped Egyptian and Syrian armies. Israel shared captured Soviet equipment with the US. Israel emerged the one reliable ally where U.S. troops could land, where U.S. equipment can be pre-positioned and where the U.S. has friendly port facilities, saving the US billions of dollars.

In 1982, Israel destroyed Soviet anti-aircraft systems in Lebanon that were considered impenetrable by American weapons. Israel shared with the US insights from the conflict, estimated to be worth billions of dollars.

Senator Daniel Inouye has stated that Israeli data on the Soviet military has saved the U.S. billions of dollars and that the contribution made by Israeli intelligence to America exceeds information provided by all NATO countries combined.

In 1981, Israel bombed the Iraqi nuclear reactor at Osirak, stalling Saddam Hussein’s nuclear capabilities and allowing the U.S. to engage in conventional warfare with Iraq in 1991 and 2003.

Israel has provided critical analysis of the F16 to General Dynamics that resulted in 600 improvements, including structural enhancements, software changes, increased capability landing gear, radio improvements and avionic modifications.

In the Gulf War, Israel provided the US with key intelligence, air cover for military cargo and had IDF stationed in the Iraqi desert to rescue downed American pilots.

The IDF was the sole military force in the region that could successfully challenge the Iraqi army. That fact, which Saddam Hussein understood, was a deterrent to further Iraqi aggression.

The US military benefited from the use of Israeli-made Have Nap air-launched missiles on its B-52 bombers. The Navy used Israeli Pioneer pilotless drones for reconnaissance in the Gulf.

Israel provided mine plows that were used to clear paths for Allied forces through Iraqi minefields.

Mobile bridges flown directly from Israel to Saudi Arabia were used by the U.S. Marine Corps

Israel Aircraft Industries developed conformal fuel tanks that enhanced the range of F15 aircraft used in the Gulf War.

An Israeli-produced targeting system was used to increase the Cobra helicopter's night-fighting capabilities.

Israel manufactured the canister for the highly successful Tomahawk missile.

Night-vision goggles used by U.S. forces were supplied by Israel.

A low-altitude warning system produced and developed in Israel was utilized on Blackhawk helicopters.

Other Israeli equipment provided to U.S. forces included flack vests, gas masks and sandbags.

Israel offered the United States the use of military and hospital facilities. U.S. ships utilized Haifa port shipyard maintenance and support on their way to the Gulf.

General George Keegan, former head of U.S. Air Force Intelligence, has stated that “Israel is worth five CIA’s.” He said that between 1974 and
1990, Israel received $18.3 billion in U.S. military grants, but, that in the same timeframe Israel provided the U.S. with $50-$80 billion in intelligence, research and development savings and Soviet weapons systems given to the U.S.

Israel shares with the US important experience in homeland defense and warfare against suicide bombers and car bombs.

In preparation for the Iraq War, American soldiers trained in IDF facilities and Israeli drones flew above the Sunni Triangle and in Afghanistan providing U.S. Marines with critical intelligence.

In Iraq, Israeli advisers have trained US special forces in aggressive counter-insurgency operations, including the use of assassination squads against guerrilla leaders.

The IDF sent urban warfare specialists to Fort Bragg in North Carolina, the home of US special forces, and Israeli military consultants have also visited Iraq.

The US Army also travelled to Israel to glean lessons learned from their counterterrorist operations in urban areas. The IDF regularly shared its experience in the West Bank and Gaza with the US armed forces. The Pentagon regularly asked the IDF to debrief on operations similar to those engaged in by US military forces.

An American liaison team had been responsible for coordinating efforts and intelligence between the Pentagon, the IDF, and American forces. Major General Charles Simpson, the chief liaison officer for the U.S. Army, met repeatedly with IDF Chief of Staff Moshe Ya'alon on this joint project.

Joint air force exercises, such as the Juniper Cobra, had taken place between Israeli and the American Patriot artillery in the Negev and radar units from the U.S. Sixth Fleet. Noble Dina, an anti-submarine warfare exercise, were executed with the combined efforts of the Israel Navy and the Sixth Fleet.

American soldiers were in Israel prior to the Iraq war to work with anti-missile defenses, both the U.S.-made Patriot and the Arrow, developed by both Israel and the U.S.

The U.S. sailed an aircraft carrier, the Harry Truman, into the Mediterranean Sea. The aircraft allowed U.S. planes to reach Iraqi targets by flying over Israeli and Jordanian territory. Israel has permitted the use of its air zones.

Israel has been sharing with the US its experience in combating Palestinian terrorism, which has been helpful in the US's war in Afghanistan. The US military benefits from Israel’s tactics against suicide bombers, car bombs and improvised explosive devices.

Most of the US military aid to Israel must be spent in the United States, which benefits US military contractors.

In contrast to US commitments to Korea, Japan, Germany and numerous other countries in which the US has over 100 military bases, the US has no military bases in Israel.

Former Secretary of State and NATO forces Commander Alexander Haig has said that he is pro-Israeli because Israel is "the largest American aircraft carrier in the world that cannot be sunk, does not carry even one American soldier, and is located in a critical region for American national security"

[Thunder]

Since 1967, Israel has given to the Pentagon Soviet military equipment captured in conflicts with Soviet-supported Arab countries, providing important data. Israel gave the US a full squadron of MiG-21s which was called the “Top Gun” squadron and used by the U.S. Air Force and Navy for training purposes.

In 1970, Israel forced the withdrawal of the Syrian army from US-ally Jordan while the U.S. was involved militarily in Vietnam, Laos, and Cambodia, helping to prevent the collapse of a pro-American government and the installation of a pro-Soviet regime.

In the 1973 War, Israel defeated Soviet-trained and equipped Egyptian and Syrian armies. Israel shared captured Soviet equipment with the US. Israel emerged the one reliable ally where U.S. troops could land, where U.S. equipment can be pre-positioned and where the U.S. has friendly port facilities, saving the US billions of dollars.

In 1982, Israel destroyed Soviet anti-aircraft systems in Lebanon that were considered impenetrable by American weapons. Israel shared with the US insights from the conflict, estimated to be worth billions of dollars.

Senator Daniel Inouye has stated that Israeli data on the Soviet military has saved the U.S. billions of dollars and that the contribution made by Israeli intelligence to America exceeds information provided by all NATO countries combined.

In 1981, Israel bombed the Iraqi nuclear reactor at Osirak, stalling Saddam Hussein’s nuclear capabilities and allowing the U.S. to engage in conventional warfare with Iraq in 1991 and 2003.

Israel has provided critical analysis of the F16 to General Dynamics that resulted in 600 improvements, including structural enhancements, software changes, increased capability landing gear, radio improvements and avionic modifications.

In the Gulf War, Israel provided the US with key intelligence, air cover for military cargo and had IDF stationed in the Iraqi desert to rescue downed American pilots.

The IDF was the sole military force in the region that could successfully challenge the Iraqi army. That fact, which Saddam Hussein understood, was a deterrent to further Iraqi aggression.

The US military benefited from the use of Israeli-made Have Nap air-launched missiles on its B-52 bombers. The Navy used Israeli Pioneer pilotless drones for reconnaissance in the Gulf.

Israel provided mine plows that were used to clear paths for Allied forces through Iraqi minefields.

Mobile bridges flown directly from Israel to Saudi Arabia were used by the U.S. Marine Corps

Israel Aircraft Industries developed conformal fuel tanks that enhanced the range of F15 aircraft used in the Gulf War.

An Israeli-produced targeting system was used to increase the Cobra helicopter's night-fighting capabilities.

Israel manufactured the canister for the highly successful Tomahawk missile.

Night-vision goggles used by U.S. forces were supplied by Israel.

A low-altitude warning system produced and developed in Israel was utilized on Blackhawk helicopters.

Other Israeli equipment provided to U.S. forces included flack vests, gas masks and sandbags.

Israel offered the United States the use of military and hospital facilities. U.S. ships utilized Haifa port shipyard maintenance and support on their way to the Gulf.

General George Keegan, former head of U.S. Air Force Intelligence, has stated that “Israel is worth five CIA’s.” He said that between 1974 and
1990, Israel received $18.3 billion in U.S. military grants, but, that in the same timeframe Israel provided the U.S. with $50-$80 billion in intelligence, research and development savings and Soviet weapons systems given to the U.S.

Israel shares with the US important experience in homeland defense and warfare against suicide bombers and car bombs.

In preparation for the Iraq War, American soldiers trained in IDF facilities and Israeli drones flew above the Sunni Triangle and in Afghanistan providing U.S. Marines with critical intelligence.

In Iraq, Israeli advisers have trained US special forces in aggressive counter-insurgency operations, including the use of assassination squads against guerrilla leaders.

The IDF sent urban warfare specialists to Fort Bragg in North Carolina, the home of US special forces, and Israeli military consultants have also visited Iraq.

The US Army also travelled to Israel to glean lessons learned from their counterterrorist operations in urban areas. The IDF regularly shared its experience in the West Bank and Gaza with the US armed forces. The Pentagon regularly asked the IDF to debrief on operations similar to those engaged in by US military forces.

An American liaison team had been responsible for coordinating efforts and intelligence between the Pentagon, the IDF, and American forces. Major General Charles Simpson, the chief liaison officer for the U.S. Army, met repeatedly with IDF Chief of Staff Moshe Ya'alon on this joint project.

Joint air force exercises, such as the Juniper Cobra, had taken place between Israeli and the American Patriot artillery in the Negev and radar units from the U.S. Sixth Fleet. Noble Dina, an anti-submarine warfare exercise, were executed with the combined efforts of the Israel Navy and the Sixth Fleet.

American soldiers were in Israel prior to the Iraq war to work with anti-missile defenses, both the U.S.-made Patriot and the Arrow, developed by both Israel and the U.S.

The U.S. sailed an aircraft carrier, the Harry Truman, into the Mediterranean Sea. The aircraft allowed U.S. planes to reach Iraqi targets by flying over Israeli and Jordanian territory. Israel has permitted the use of its air zones.

Israel has been sharing with the US its experience in combating Palestinian terrorism, which has been helpful in the US's war in Afghanistan. The US military benefits from Israel’s tactics against suicide bombers, car bombs and improvised explosive devices.

Most of the US military aid to Israel must be spent in the United States, which benefits US military contractors.

In contrast to US commitments to Korea, Japan, Germany and numerous other countries in which the US has over 100 military bases, the US has no military bases in Israel.

Former Secretary of State and NATO forces Commander Alexander Haig has said that he is pro-Israeli because Israel is "the largest American aircraft carrier in the world that cannot be sunk, does not carry even one American soldier, and is located in a critical region for American national security"

beautiful cut and paste job. now you wanna provide the author of this lengthy spiel?

[The Fool]

beautiful cut and paste job. now you wanna provide the author of this lengthy spiel?
probably not....

Doubt he even more than skim read it before deciding it would do as a wall-o-text.

Hey Marc39, tell me more about his one.

"IDF stationed in the Iraqi desert to rescue downed American pilots."

I had never heard about the IDF having ground forces in Iraq....tell me more.

[FireGarden]

Umm, I think you had a very basic misconception regarding the reason I had for starting this thread.I had no intention of either praising, or criticizing Hamas. Rather I wanted to bring a piece of news which was interesting, and could be indicative of long range trends.

Fair enough.
I guess some of my reaction was reflex -- I've spent too long at the JREF politics forum! :D

[Sword_Of_Truth]

"IDF stationed in the Iraqi desert to rescue downed American pilots."

I had never heard about the IDF having ground forces in Iraq....tell me more.
beautiful cut and paste job. now you wanna provide the author of this lengthy spiel?

As much as these two have their heads in the sand when it comes to the Mid-East, I gotta agree with them here.

I would really like to know where you got all that from so I could check it out myself.

[The Fool]

As much as these two have their heads in the sand when it comes to the Mid-East, I gotta agree with them here.

I would really like to know where you got all that from so I could check it out myself.
Hmmm, his excuse for me for not telling where he got it will probably just be hand-waving and telling me I know nothing. As for yours??My best guess is he will just ignore your request.....

[Skeptic]

Well, it certainly gives us a preview of what a Palestinian state would be like.

Long live the peace, I mean the terrorism, process.

It's all the occupation's fault, however.

Oh wait, Gaza isn't occupied.

But it's Israel's fault anyway due to the blockade.

Or something.

[Marc39]

Well, it certainly gives us a preview of what a Palestinian state would be like.

Long live the peace, I mean the terrorism, process.

It's all the occupation's fault, however.

Oh wait, Gaza isn't occupied.

But it's Israel's fault anyway due to the blockade.

Or something.

If Israel didn't exist, the Arabs would need to invent it to blame for all their problems and failures.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Hmmm, his excuse for me for not telling where he got it will probably just be hand-waving and telling me I know nothing. As for yours??My best guess is he will just ignore your request.....

But you do realize though that much of that is true, don't you?

The Israelis did capture a great deal of Soviet equipment during the 60's, 70's and 80's and they did share a lot of it with the US. Though I don't know how one comes up with a dollar value for useful, accurate intelligence as Marcs source tries to do, most of it would have been priceless.

No one has been fighting radical islamofascist terrorists as long and as hard as the Israelis. Their experience in that field is also invaluable. If you multiply all the times that islamic terrorists have failed in North America by that one time in 2001 when they did, that 2 or 3 billion a year in "preventative medicine" becomes a bargain.

Yes, the IDF rescuing US airmen in Iraq is likely bogus (especially when the US was pleading on its knees to Israel to stay out of the fight lest the Saudis pull out of the coalition), the stuff in there that is true more than makes up for it.

[Darth Rotor]

Since 1967, Israel has given to the Pentagon Soviet military equipment captured in conflicts with Soviet-supported Arab countries, providing important data. Israel gave the US a full squadron of MiG-21s which was called the “Top Gun” squadron and used by the U.S. Air Force and Navy for training purposes.
Wrong. Top Gun is the old name for the Navy Fighter Weapons School. Top Gun no longer exists. It was incorporated into Strike U some years ago. It flew the F-5E and F-5F, and the A-4M, among other aggressor planes. VF-126, in the hangar next to Top Gun's hangar at Miramar, also didn't fly MiG 21. IIRC, VF-43 on the East Coast used to fly Israeli Kfirs in the 80's, as aggressors. Don't remember if Top Gun did or not. F-5E was used as it had a very similar flight envelop and small visual signature, very comparable to the MiG 21. Top Gun flew F-16N as aggresors for a while. There were indeed US exploitation of MiGs from the Israelis captures, yes, but IIRC, that was at Red Flag/Nellis, and elsewhere NOT at the major fighter concentration in San Diego. Memory is fuzzy on that one. Don't recall if MiGs were ever stationed at Fallon, which was in some ways comparable to Red Flag in its use of captured equipment back in the day.
In 1970, Israel forced the withdrawal of the Syrian army from US-ally Jordan while the U.S. was involved militarily in Vietnam, Laos, and Cambodia, helping to prevent the collapse of a pro-American government and the installation of a pro-Soviet regime.
Worth looking up, had not heard that one before.
In the 1973 War, Israel defeated Soviet-trained and equipped Egyptian and Syrian armies. Israel shared captured Soviet equipment with the US. Israel emerged the one reliable ally where U.S. troops could land, where U.S. equipment can be pre-positioned and where the U.S. has friendly port facilities, saving the US billions of dollars.First two sentences true. Remaining sentences False. US has an ally, ports availability, and and equimpent in Turkey, for example, and has access to ports all over the Med.
In 1982, Israel destroyed Soviet anti-aircraft systems in Lebanon that were considered impenetrable by American weapons. Israel shared with the US insights from the conflict, estimated to be worth billions of dollars.
No, not considered impenetrable by the US. That is a bald lie. Also, Israelis shot down about 80 Russian and French built ACFT from Syrian Air Force using US built/provided F-15 and F-16.
Senator Daniel Inouye has stated that Israeli data on the Soviet military has saved the U.S. billions of dollars and that the contribution made by Israeli intelligence to America exceeds information provided by all NATO countries combined.
The last part of that is of dubious merit. Intel sharing has been handy, no question.
In 1981, Israel bombed the Iraqi nuclear reactor at Osirak, stalling Saddam Hussein’s nuclear capabilities and allowing the U.S. to engage in conventional warfare with Iraq in 1991 and 2003.
First half factually accurate, second half a load of horse crap.
Israel has provided critical analysis of the F16 to General Dynamics that resulted in 600 improvements, including structural enhancements, software changes, increased capability landing gear, radio improvements and avionic modifications.
Iraelis were not the only people who provided feedback on the F-16, all of our users, and allies, did. That's a very tall claim. Very tall.
In the Gulf War, Israel provided the US with key intelligence, air cover for military cargo and had IDF stationed in the Iraqi desert to rescue downed American pilots.
That last bit smells of a lie, the first bit I believe, air cover for cargo too vague to ascertain validity of.
The IDF was the sole military force in the region that could successfully challenge the Iraqi army. That fact, which Saddam Hussein understood, was a deterrent to further Iraqi aggression.
The Kuwaitis disagree, I suspect, with that line of thought.
The US military benefited from the use of Israeli-made Have Nap air-launched missiles on its B-52 bombers. The Navy used Israeli Pioneer pilotless drones for reconnaissance in the Gulf.
One of those sounds correct. Care to tell us which operations Have Nap was deployed in?
Israel provided mine plows that were used to clear paths for Allied forces through Iraqi minefields.
Source that. Which allies?
Mobile bridges flown directly from Israel to Saudi Arabia were used by the U.S. Marine Corps
Source that.
Israel Aircraft Industries developed conformal fuel tanks that enhanced the range of F15 aircraft used in the Gulf War.
Conformal fuel tanks well predated Gulf War, that one I recall the Israelis being involved in, but is a few decades old in that part of memory. Don't remember whose bright idea it first was.
An Israeli-produced targeting system was used to increase the Cobra helicopter's night-fighting capabilities.
Funny, so did the US.
Israel manufactured the canister for the highly successful Tomahawk missile.
Which one?
Night-vision goggles used by U.S. forces were supplied by Israel.
Which models, what years? Source this statement.
A low-altitude warning system produced and developed in Israel was utilized on Blackhawk helicopters.
There was already one in the Blackhawk before the ISraeli bought the helicopter. It is called RAWS. We had them in H-2's also.
Israel offered the United States the use of military and hospital facilities. U.S. ships utilized Haifa port shipyard maintenance and support on their way to the Gulf.
That was not new, such had been going of for some time. I pulled into Haifa in the mid 80's.
General George Keegan, former head of U.S. Air Force Intelligence, has stated that “Israel is worth five CIA’s.” He said that between 1974 and 1990, Israel received $18.3 billion in U.S. military grants, but, that in the same timeframe Israel provided the U.S. with $50-$80 billion in intelligence, research and development savings and Soviet weapons systems given to the U.S.
Keegan understates the value of the CIA, since all he had was an interest in military intelligence. Standard parochial tripe from the USAF. See above, Israeli intel sharing has been most handy, no question.
Israel shares with the US important experience in homeland defense and warfare against suicide bombers and car bombs.
Too bad they don't share that info with Iraqis, people who could use the info -- don't you think?
The IDF sent urban warfare specialists to Fort Bragg in North Carolina, the home of US special forces, and Israeli military consultants have also visited Iraq.
RIngs a bell.
The US Army also travelled to Israel to glean lessons learned from their counterterrorist operations in urban areas. The IDF regularly shared its experience in the West Bank and Gaza with the US armed forces. The Pentagon regularly asked the IDF to debrief on operations similar to those engaged in by US military forces.
Sounds familiar.
The U.S. sailed an aircraft carrier, the Harry Truman, into the Mediterranean Sea. The aircraft allowed U.S. planes to reach Iraqi targets by flying over Israeli and Jordanian territory. Israel has permitted the use of its air zones.
That's air space.
In contrast to US commitments to Korea, Japan, Germany and numerous other countries in which the US has over 100 military bases, the US has no military bases in Israel.
So what?
Former Secretary of State and NATO forces Commander Alexander Haig has said that he is pro-Israeli because Israel is "the largest American aircraft carrier in the world that cannot be sunk, does not carry even one American soldier, and is located in a critical region for American national security"
You would have me belive that Alexander Haig, an Army pogue, doesn't get Aircraft Carriers, whose major advantage is mobility. Israel isn't mobile. It also is not used to base USN and USAF tactical aircraft. That little snippet is one of the stupidest things I have seen attributed to Alexander Haig, a former NATO commander, and I very much doubt he said that. If he did, he's not as smart as I thought he was.

DR

[Marc39]

Well, it certainly gives us a preview of what a Palestinian state would be like.

Long live the peace, I mean the terrorism, process.

It's all the occupation's fault, however.

Oh wait, Gaza isn't occupied.

But it's Israel's fault anyway due to the blockade.

Or something.

One can hope that Gazans are taking note of the dramatic economic conditions unfolding in the West Bank, what some are characterizing as a small renaissance, from shopping malls to exclusive resorts to pricey hotels. Israeli-imposed restrictions are being eased and Israelis are being permitted to return to Palestinian cities to do shopping, eat at restaurants, etc. Additionally, Palestinians being given work permits for inside Israel has increased.

[The Fool]

But you do realize though that much of that is true, don't you?

how much? Is there much point in discussing issues with someone when you are required to review each and every post from them for its fabrication content? Then persue a long and pointless handwaving game where he runs from his fabrications? He probably thinks that lying for the cause is good for the cause. All he is managing to do is reinforce a perception that Israel supporters are dishonest.....gee, that helps heaps doesn't it.
Edited for Rule 12 violation.
Hey Marc39....don't suppose you are willing to dumfound everyone and tell us some details about the IDF forces stationed in Iraq that were rescuing downed airmen? Maybe we can just add it to the list below all the other stuff?
Don't personalize the argument.

[GreNME]

Excellent post, DR. Kudos.